Transcript

#561: Rich Roll — Reinventing Your Life at 30, 40, and Beyond

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No Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. I'm so excited to have my guest today. His name is Richard. role and I'm gonna start In an unorthodox way, and that is by reading a tweet. I don't really do this. I've don't know if I've ever done this, but this is a tweet from October twenty eighteen. And I think Rich is probably gonna see where this is going. Just before his fifty second birthday, here's the tweet. I didn't reach my athlet until I was forty-three. I didn't write my first book until I was forty-four. I didn't start my podcast until I was forty-five.

At thirty I thought my life was over. At fifty two, I know it's just beginning. Keep running, never give up, and watch your kite soar. then uh there's actually another tweet within context. So I've retweeted this for people who want to see it. They can also find it, of course, at Rich Roll R O L L. I want to mention one more thing before we get Two. More of the bio.

And that is related to your first half Iron Man. So This is an outside magazine. And here's the quote. In my first half Iron Man, I barfed during the swim. By the time I got off my bike, my legs were so cramped up that I ran one hundred meters for you Yanks like me, that's about three hundred feet, and just stopped. It was DNF. That means he did not finish. My beginnings in triathlon were very humble, but I loved it.

Alright, so I'm gonna give this in drips and drabs, but let's start with paragraph one. So now Zooming out to present day A little bit of retrospective. At age forty, Rich Roll, as I mentioned, at Rich Roll on Twitter, made the decision to overhaul the sedentary throes of overweight middle age. And I might

It may or may not be in that place just right now. Walking away from a career in law, he reinvented himself as a globally recognized ultra Distance endurance athlete. Best selling author and host of the wildly popular Rich Roll Podcast, which I highly recommend, one of the world's most listened to podcasts with more than 200 million downloads. And I'm gonna modify the next paragraph a little bit. Rich has been named one of the twenty five fittest men in the world by Men's Fitness and the

Guru of reinvention by outside. magazine. He's written a best selling memoir, Finding Ultra. and has co-authored the cookbooks slash lifestyle guides, The Plant Power Way, and the Plant Power Way Italia. with his wife, Julie is it Piat?

Pilot. Damn it. I knew I had a fifty fifty chance there. It's a common common thing. You're not a legend. This is showing where the And how the sausage is made, because a professional would have asked, and in fact I highlighted her last name I do ask you before we started recording. But you know, we live in a worry. And uh just to get a few things mentioned and we'll mention them again at the very end, Rich Roll dot com you can find all things Rich related Rich Roll on All social, including Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube, except for Facebook.

Which is rich roll. Fans. Rich, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me, Tim. It's really an honor to be able to join you for this and I'm really looking forward to the conversation to come. So thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Me too. And for those of you who can't see video. At some point maybe you should check it out because we have

The perfect Yin Yang. color template here. You have a rather disheveled Tim Ferris. in tan with white background and Rich looking like a handsome devil. With black clothing, black background. It's actually very striking. I should request that guests do this in the future.

That uh will help viewers to keep them separate. So let's really dive in here and I want to establish just a bit of Background for folks. And we're gonna go all over the place. So at age forty, right, so you make the decision to overhaul dot dot dot. But let's get granular and maybe we could focus on one piece of this life puzzle, which is alcohol.

And Could you speak to the role? that alcohol has played in your life. When it entered your life. When you really realized that you had a problem. Let's begin there if you're open to it.

It entered my life near the end of high school and the beginning of college prior to that I was a very studious, highly motivated person who was very goal driven. And that grew out of, I think in retrospect, looking back on my life

On a deep insecurity that I had because as a young person I was very much an introvert. I had a lot of difficulty. connecting with other people and making friends. I certainly hadn't demonstrated any kind of athletic talent or or ability. I was the

typical, like prototypical kid who gets picked last for kickball and Was very awkward and self conscious. And at some point Along the way, I discovered the sport of swimming and we could talk about that if you like, but that was the one thing where I kind of felt comfortable and showed some level of acumen at an early stage. And when you're a young person

and you experience just a little bit of encouragement or success, you're gonna kinda double down on that. And that's what I did. And I think there was something about Being underwater. in almost a metaphysical sense or a psychological sense where I felt protected, like it was almost like this womb where I was insulated from all of the confusing emotions that I had as a young person. And so swimming really became my focus.

And I realized early that I wasn't the most talented kid, but I had this capacity to suffer and to work hard and a willingness to go the extra mile. And with that sensibility, I was able to bridge the talent deficit gap to some extent. to the point where by the time I was a senior in high school, I was one of the better swimmers in the Washington DC area where I grew up. And the discipline that I learned in the swimming pool trickled into

my academic pursuits, so I was able to go from a kid who really had trouble learning and was sort of a sit in the back of the class kind of guy. to being a good student and ultimately getting into a bunch of fancy colleges. So at eighteen I really was in a situation, a very privileged situation where the world was very much my oyster and anything was possible. I ended up going to

Stanford University. You know, I went to the opposite Coast. And I'm sure there's some psychological reasons why, you know, I flew three thousand miles away to go to college. And it was, you know, the reason to go there was twofold. I mean, first of all, Stanford is Stanford and it's this amazing academic institution, but at the time in the mid and late nineteen eighties, it also had the number one N C two A

division one men's swimming program. They were like The most incredible team, the most Insane. assemblage of Olympic champions and world and American record holders and and the like. And the opportunity to be a member of that team was like a dream that I couldn't even imagine for myself. So here I am in this incredibly privileged situation where anything truly is possible, but enter alcohol.

And Alcohol was something that I first was introduced to when I was doing recruiting trips and traveling to colleges, which is what you do when you're, you know, an athlete and trying to consider where to go to school. And I had some experiences there that really anchored in me from moment one that this was gonna be a thing for me. Like I had that sensation that you care about with

recovering alcoholics where From the f very first drink it was like this warm blanket that I could wrap myself in and all my troubles and insecurities and fears and And insecurities just sort of vanished and for the first time I felt comfortable in my own skin. And I just remember

thinking this is the way that I want to feel all the time. Like I could go to a party and I could strike up a conversation or crack a joke or talk to a girl. which were all things that were terrifying to me at the time. And so I just felt like I had found the solution that I had been looking for my whole life. This young person who felt like everybody else had

a perfect roadmap for how to live. And suddenly, you know, those answers that eluded me were being provided in the form of this substance. And so When I got to Stanford Very quickly. Well, quickly and gradually, but I would say that I got more and more progressively more interested in like

Where's my next good time? Then how am I going to create a foundation for a happy, successful life? And a lot of those aspirations that I had about Athletics and Academic excellence soon became secondary to, you know, where's the where's the party tonight? And it was just a situation where over a an extended period of time, like my my life began to

degrade. So it wasn't a situation in which I created cataclysms out of the gate that derailed me. Because I could function And you're it's easier to do that when you're younger, but I could function I could comport myself in a way where I could still

get good grade, show up for class, still, you know, go out partying until two or three in the morning and show up for six AM swim practice. But over time, like this is not a good recipe for for living. And and you know, I lived that way for a very long time until ultimately things got really dark and scary. And you know, I hit that bottom that you hear about with people in recovery. What did you think? Any of the bottoms. Or dark moments.

Look like. If we could. Paint a picture of any example that comes to mind. First of all, I would say that there was there was nothing like cool or rock and roll about any of it. Like it's just lonely, sad and and kind of pathetic and and deeply embarrassing. You know, just you know, I would I would drive drunk and like wouldn't remember where I parked my car and would have to wake up the next morning and try to figure out where where my car was when I was living in San Francisco when I was fresh out of law school one time.

I woke up one day, didn't want to go to my law firm job and like flew to Las Vegas and lost my wallet and woke up not remembering anything that had happened and trying to figure out how I'm gonna get home. You know, stuff like that. That's just you know, I was the guy who who, you know, was the last to leave the party and When you're in college, you know, maybe it's cute, but when you're twenty five, twenty six, twenty eight. you know, nobody's living that way anymore. And you have to find other people to do that with what they call lower companions in the parlour of recovery until ultimately there's no one left and you're just alone. And I was a guy who would drink alone in my apartment or wake up in the morning before work and have a vodka tonic in the shower, like it was all very leaving Las Vegas.

And I was only thirty one at the time, but my disease had progressed to such a state where There was really only a couple things that were gonna happen. Either I was going to kill myself, kill another person, or end up in jail or some kind of institution. And that's really kind of what, you know, ultimately led me to getting Getting sober.

And when you say kill yourself, do you mean via alcohol poisoning or a car accident? Or via Some deliberate suicide. What do you mean by that? I was never suicidal. I didn't have suicidal ideation, but

my life was getting smaller and smaller and more lonely. So if I was able to kind of maintain that lifestyle over an extended period of time. I'm certain that I would have reached a a level of desperation where that would have seemed like a good idea. Why did you choose Law. Why did you choose to pursue law?

Right out of college, I moved to New York City and got a job as a paralegal in a big law firm in New York called Scat and Arps. And that was a situation that should have told me immediately that maybe this wasn't the right path for me. Yeah. But I think that that I chose it

Not out of some kind of deliberate idea that it would be something I would be interested in or show some proficiency in, but more as a reaction social and familial pressures. This idea of Not really knowing what I wanted to do, but hey, I can always go to law school and society will smile upon that and I can put a nice suit on and have nice lunches and have interesting conversations with people and, you know, make a good living. I mean my

self inquiry really didn't go any further than that. And there was nothing about like my interests that would have indicated that law was a good path for me, but I was so disconnected from myself that even asking myself that question at the time was anathema to who I was, but I'm a good student and I actually enjoyed law school. I enjoy the intellectual pursuit and And all of that, but the practice of law is very different, at least in the corporate law firm context, very different than A law school experience.

Yes. Very knowing many people who went to law school. I can uh through secondhand stories say that that seems to universally be the perspective that people have. Yeah, but and if you if you love it, if that's your thing, then more power to you. But I just remember walking the halls of, you know, the various law firms that I worked at. being confused that there seemed to be certain people that enjoyed it, because I was just gritting my way through it, thinking, I'll just apply these tools that I learned in the swimming pool about suffering and pain tolerance. And I just thought everybody was having that internal experience. I'm sure many were, but there seems to be some people that seem to enjoy it. But I just know that the more that I kind of looked around

Certainly with respect to the partners That It was clear to me that I didn't really want that life, and yet I felt very stuck in that career path and unsure about how I could ever get out of it and do anything else. We're gonna spend just for people listening and also for you, Rich, so you don't think that we're gonna spend too much time in in these waters. We're gonna spend a lot of time talking about

Turn arounds. techniques, pattern matching, all sorts of things. But I I do want to spend a little bit more time on this chapter or maybe the chapter shortly after this point in time. What was the straw, what were the straw that broke the camel's back with respect to alcohol and seeking help.

Well, there were a couple important inflection points. One of which was getting two DUIs essentially in a row. with ridiculously high blood alcohol contents. looking at jail time, my boss finding out at the law firm and being on the precipice of of getting fired. That's a whole rabbit hole, you know, sort of chaotic disaster that I weathered.

Another one was a marriage or I should say like a wedding that went awry. I got married and that relationship ended on the honeymoon, which is a whole crazy story. Story. That is inextricably linked to I mean, I was sober at the time, but it's very much linked to my alcoholism. So there's big events like that, but I think

those situations created such a deep level of shame inside of me that I wasn't able to shake alcohol in the wake of those experiences because I didn't have the emotional tools to process them. So I continued to drink for a while. I mean, the the wedding was really, you know, the nadir of the whole thing and a a reasonable person would have woken up and gotten sober at that time, but I needed to medicate myself through. That

emotional shitstorm until one day I basically woke up and I was hungover, but it wasn't like I had reaped any kind of chaos the night before. But it's just that moment of realizing like I've had enough, like I can't live this way anymore. It's just so lonely and desperate and it only leads in one direction. And I think that's what it takes for anybody who has experience with addiction, particularly substance addiction. You have this sense, like you asked me earlier on, Tim, like when did I know I had a problem? Like I knew I had a problem very early on in my drinking career.

But that's very different from the willingness to do anything about it. Like I harbored this notion that this was a problem for me, but you're also protecting it because you want to be able to keep doing it. And that's what leads to, you know, this sort of double life where you're hiding. your behavior from other people and deluding yourself into thinking that they don't know what's going on. But ultimately you realize like everybody knows what's going on and on some level It's a process of stripping away those layers of denial until you can really face the objective truth of what you're doing. And that's a very terrifying thing. And so that's kind of what was going on inside of me.

Until this day in nineteen ninety eight where I was like okay, I've had it, like I'm I'm ready to really take this seriously and do something about it. How old were you roughly then? My math is is gonna fail me at this moment, but nineteen ninety eight. Yeah, I was thirty one. thirty one.

Alright. And Because It struck me as a curveball. If you don't want to get into it, that's totally fine. But in my mind I envisioned this honeymoon just Going down.

As a fireball. Due to Some catastrophe that was alcohol induced, but you said you were sober. Yeah. Are you willing to expand on that at all? And if not, that's fine. Yeah.

I had been drinking quite a bit. I got engaged to this woman. I was living in San Francisco at the time. She was living in Palo Alto and is from Palo Alto. But in the kind of lead up to this wedding, because we had gotten engaged, I had taken a job in Los Angeles. So we were living in separate cities. And I think

during that interim period when she got distance between me, she realized like maybe this isn't the guy I want to marry. And I had come clean with her about the D UIs. And I think that was very scary to her. So Even though I had been sober for a number of months and told her that I was committed to this path of sobriety, I think in her heart of hearts, she really wanted to get out of this relationship, but she was unable to muster the strength to break it off herself. And I think that she wanted me to break it off. And so there was so much energy behind this impending wedding that was happening that it just kind of transpired without anybody hitting the brakes. And I was trying to be conciliatory and say, because I knew she was off and not present and something was wrong. And I would say Are you okay? Like what's going on? How can I make you feel

comfortable with all of this and it's a much longer story. I go into detail about it in my book, but Essentially she permitted the wedding to go through, but then didn't want to sign the marriage certificate. That's a red flag. Right. Cause for pause. Yeah. And you know, the night of the wedding when we went back to the honeymoon suite, that did not go well. I'm surprised that we even went on the honeymoon, but I think in my mind I was thinking I'm gonna try to make this right and it's all gonna work out. That was its own level of delusion. And while we were on this honeymoon on a Caribbean island,

It was clear that this relationship had no future and ultimately we were able to have a conversation about it and she ended up leaving early and at that moment I was left with myself with No tools and having been sober for six months. But

unable to really process the emotional devastation of having just basically had everybody that I cared about in the world with like twelve groomsmen in this wedding wedding in Palo Alto. Bear witness to A marriage that clearly wasn't gonna Work out.

And it was really devastating to me. So I ended up getting drunk on that island and really struggled to get sober again for quite some time after that. And then so thank you for sharing that. Nineteen ninety eight.

Thirty one. I've had enough. How do you seek help? What are your next actions after that? So prior to that I had been court ordered to Alcoholics Anonymous, so I had been to

meetings, but I wasn't doing it because I wanted to get sober. I was doing it because I was compelled to do it. And I think that's an important distinction. Especially for people who are struggling or have people in their lives that are struggling with a substance issue, you want to help them, you want to intervene. You can create you know, interventions and things like that to get people into treatment.

But ultimately, if that person is resistant to it or isn't interested in getting sober, that's gonna be a very tough hill to climb. So willingness is like crucial. So when I was attending those AA meetings, I lacked that level of willingness. It was more like I just need to get people off my back so I can go back to living the way that I want to live and why is everybody bugging me? But In the wake of that

wedding experience. when my drinking got more and more dire. my parents had reached the level of their tolerance threshold with me. And basically my dad said Listen, we love you. But we just can't continue to watch you destroy yourself like this, and we can't have anything to do with you.

But if you're ready to get sober were of course hear from you. But until then Or not available to you. However Because they were

So terrified. of all of this. They had found An addiction medicine psychiatrist in Los Angeles. And they said, We have this guy it might be great if you go and see him. So I started seeing this

Addiction medicine specialist. And you know, he just rang my bell immediately and was like, Here's the deal, dude, you're an alcoholic and you need to go to treatment and until you do that, like nothing's gonna change and your life's gonna continue to be terrible. And I would try to negotiate with him and say, Well, I think I can do it in AA. So I was kind of in and out in A of AA doing my own self experimentation with trying to get sober. But every time I would crawl back into his office and I was honest with him and I said, Yeah, I relapsed again or this happened.

But at some point I made a deal with him because he was like, Are you ready to go to treatment? I was like, Let me try one more time. And he said, Okay. And To his credit, I think that's a really interesting approach. Like you have to back off a little bit and allow people to have their process. It's like inception. They have to come into this awareness on their own.

You cannot compel somebody to see themselves as as they really are. And of course I relapsed. crawl back into his office and because I was considered myself such a man of my word. I said, Well, I made a deal with you, so okay, now I'll go to treatment. You know, I called him after this one bender and I said, I'm I'm ready and he got a bed for me and I immediately go online and I'm researching treatment centers and I'm looking for the the spa resort one, you know

That has really nice accommodations. He's like, No, no, no. Here's where you're going. This place in Oregon. I got a bed for you. Get on the plane today. And that's basically how it began. What do you think?

People tend to miss about this story. Whether they hear you telling this story or they read about it. Are there things that Are important that people gloss over Or that's the

Elements of this story whether we've Heard them. Today or not. That stand out to you as particularly important, sort of on the road to recovery, initiating recovery.

I think about this type of question a lot. What do people tend to glom onto as the really important parts? What do they tend to maybe neglect? to their detriment if they're Aiming for recovery themselves. Does anything come to mind when I say all that? You're talking

More broadly about addiction in general, not my personal story. I think I'm talking about I'm weaving into it through your personal story. So it could be your personal story, but it could also be addiction in A broader sense because part of what is so interesting to me about

you and your story is You've not only had the experiences that you've had But you have no doubt witnessed many people try to emulate.

the turnarounds of various types. And you've seen some people succeed spectacularly. You see some people fail spectacularly and then there's a whole spectrum in between, right? So that I think is extremely interesting and potentially instructive. Yeah. So you could answer this in in any way you like. It could be from your personal story. It could be from

What you've seen or learned more broadly speaking about. addiction and recovery. There's a lot that I can say about this. I mean, first with respect to my personal story. If you Google my name, there's a lot of misguided narratives out there that Me adopting a vegan diet is what got me sober or

That Ultra endurance training is what got me sober or keeps me sober, and those are all wildly inaccurate. I mean, I was sober for almost ten years before. I made these lifestyle shifts. I had a whole chapter in between where I created a foundation of sobriety. So sobriety and addiction stand outside of those things and those other things have a role in my life, but addiction and recovery are a very separate

thing and that's the way that I kind of think about it. And I think In terms of addiction and recovery more broadly. I think it's important for people to understand that For somebody who is addicted

And who's you know, behaving poorly or all the stuff that Addicts do. It's not a referendum on moral character. It's like they're suffering from an illness that wants to kill them. And when they get sober, We think of drugs and alcohol or gambling or whatever behavioral addiction that someone might have.

As the problem that has been eradicated, but in truth. The behavior or the substance is the solution to the problem. There's a level of Psychic pain. within a human being. And they

Search out a substance or a behavior that gives them some level of So The substance or the behavior is the solution to the problem because it allows them to feel okay so that they can function in the world. And

It works for a while. If it didn't work People wouldn't do it. But what they miss is that It is solving a problem for them. Of course.

It progresses and then things go sideways. And it's no longer the solution, but that's how it begins. And when you remove those behaviors and substances from those people They don't know what to do with themselves. They're like a live emotional wire.

without any kind of tools for addressing the underlying problem that has fueled the addictive behavior for so long. And the process of recovery is really about Providing tools Some tactical

Some Strategic Some practical and some very ephemeral. Spiritual. That

Can B guideposts. in helping people create new neural pathways and emotional relationships. With

how they engage with the world. And that's a very slow nonlinear process. And that's why So many addicts and alcoholics. have a lot of relapses in their story. And relapses are always treated as failures, but ultimately they're learning experiences because

You're trying to reorganize your entire life. in accordance with new ways of living that are very foreign to somebody who has been engaging in a behavior or addicted to a substance for so long. So there's a saying in in recovery like Your emotional

Development. Get stunted. from the moment that you begin to use and when you remove the substance, you're left with that young person at that stage of life. And you have to treat that person With that in mind. because they lack the tools that other people, normal people

take for granted. And I think the more that we kind of understand this, It allows us to have a little bit more Compassion for the people that suffer. And a way to kind of hold them.

In our hearts and a little bit. more lightly when they slip up. And do the thing because for people that don't have direct experience with this. It defies logic. Like how could you Do that. Like after everything that's happened, he went and did that thing again. Like it's so difficult to understand. So

I think to the extent that we can peel back the layers of the onion. And really understand what's fueling that behavior to begin with. allows us to kind of be more compassionate to those people. It's really well put.

And it Brings to mind for me something that's A doctor named Gabor Mate. Said. in a conversation I had with him, which was I'm paraphrasing here, but he said, Don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain.

Very much in line with what you just said. What is the addiction being used for? And Makes me imagine and I'm gonna Take a leap here, but

I'll go in this direction. I imagine that a lot of the questions you get about addiction are how did you stop, right? How did you stop? How did you stop? How did you quit? How did you How did you negate subtract something? But If that subtraction

leaves a void of sorts where it leaves an unaddressed need or un Healed wound. Few questions related to that.

If that resonates with you, what was it that you ended up needing to address and what were some of the tools or resources or realizations that you found particularly helpful. for that sort of additive piece. Mm-hmm.

first on on the subject of Gabor. Like I I had him on my podcast and you know, he he flips the table on you and and suddenly it becomes a therapy session, which is like amazing. You know, like it's like that's exactly what you want, right? And he was very helpful to me. In addressing that. underlying trauma piece. And my resistance to really go there because I love my parents and I don't want to blame them. And he was helpful.

And helping me understand this idea that it's not their fault, they're good people. they parented you with the tools that they had. But that doesn't mean just because you weren't homeless and impoverished or abused in any particular way, it doesn't mean that you didn't suffer some kind of trauma that ultimately

is related to, you know, the behavior that you pursued later in life. And I think To your other point. Of tools, certainly. Yeah. I mean I wasn't able to stay sober when I was a tourist and Alcoholics Anonymous because I was sitting in the back just waiting to get my court card checked.

That's very different from engaging with the true process of recovery. And you know, I'm a twelve step guy and the whole alcoholics anonymous thing is shrouded in an anonymity for a reason. So I don't want to get too specific about that other than to say that the steps are the steps for a reason and it really is this incredible Road map. for

Unpacking A lot of that. underlying pain. and providing you with tools to redress it in a meaningful practical way. that alleviate that burden and that shame.

and allow you to mature into somebody who can look somebody in the eye and show up when you say you're gonna show up, et cetera. And a big piece in that is There's lots of pieces, but one of the crucial pieces is Doing In inventory, which is

The four step. Where You literally go through your life and you itemize out all of your resentments towards people, institutions, et cetera, so that you do your r a resentment inventory. You do a fear inventory where you itemize everything that you're scared of.

And you do a sexual inventory where you Hold yourself accountable. For how your sexual energy has created havoc in your relationships. And I think The more

Comprehensive that inventory The more clear The picture is of how you have conducted your life. And from that, themes emerge where you see these recurrences of like, oh, when I'm in this situation, I always behave this way, or this type of person.

always makes me feel resentful. And you can kind of go behind that and you get a better understanding of your fundamental blueprint, which is revelatory, frankly. But that inventory is only helpful to the extent that it then allows you to itemize all of the people to whom you owe amends. Because you're carrying around with that shame this psychic burden of knowing that you have

wronged people or screwed up situations or created chaos in other people's lives. And reckoning with that. And then addressing it by going to these people and figuring out how to make those wrongs right.

is a huge relief. That is like a pressure valve release on a lot of that shame. And the more that you engage in this process, you kind of emerge from it. Where you can make peace with your past and it no longer holds all of that power over you.

And you can talk about it. freely without it creating all of those challenging emotions that are so inextricably related. to the errant behavior itself. So that's a huge piece. And that's something that I Continue to practice

All the time. It's something that you return to. Constantly. Including the tenth step, which is basically do it like a daily tenth step where you do a daily inventory of how you've conducted yourself, where you might have gone wrong, if you have to make any kind of like minor amends or adjustments in your life. And then on top of that

Meditation is a step in The twelve steps. So daily meditation is super important. as well. And there's a lot more in there, but I would say those are kind of like the fundamental tools.

I Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time what I would take if I could only take one supplement. The answer is invariably AG1 by Athletic Greens. If you're traveling, If you're just busy. You're not sure if your meals are where they should be.

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You'll receive up to a year's supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your subscription. Again, that's athleticgreens.com slash. Tim. I I am so Endlessly.

Fascinated by twelve step programs and I guess multi step programs. AA specifically the story of Bill Wilson. I find all of it just incredible. Also the sort of decentralized nature of AA itself. Are you aware?

And I'll I'll be honest that I I did it just a very cursory search. I didn't do a really dedicated search, but are you aware of any good books or documentaries that dig into The history The

A A. Are you aware of anything that comes to mind? Yeah, I'm sure there are those things that exist. I I don't know any offhand. I know there was that movie that James Woods did a while back where he played Bill Wilson, but I I don't know that I would recommend that one. I'm sure there are

And there's plenty of kind of ancillary books around recovery. Like there's a book called A New Pair of Glasses that sort of practical applications of the twelve steps for for people that are that are suffering. I don't know that there's the definitive history of of Alcoholics Anonymous or the definitive documentary, but I think your point on decentralization is so fascinating. Like it it was blockchain before blockchain.

You know, like the way that the way that it's structured is truly remarkable. that these guys like you know Bill Wilson and and Dr. Bob knew that they had to decentralize it in order to immunize it from any kind of external corruption or Power dynamic that could

Capsize the whole thing. And The fact that it has not only sustained itself, but grown. over the many, many years that it's been around is truly miraculous. And I think a case a case study. Yeah, yeah, It's really incredible.

It's a case study for How to structure an organization. That's trying to do something good and not fall prey to the lowest common denominator of human power dynamics that tend to fell even the best intentioned people who are trying to create something good. And it's it's interesting that it hasn't been replicated. to my knowledge, in any other scenarios because I think there's so much to be learned about

how it was formed and how it's continued to Not only survive, but thrive. The primary reason I ask is that it just seems like This very obvious jewel in plain sight, if that makes sense. And maybe it's the decentralized nature that makes it invisible to

A lot of Potentially. direct study. I don't know the reasons for it, but it's just ha knowing a lot of people who are part or have been part of AA. And just being introduced.

through casual conversation to some of The facets of how it works. I am Really, really fascinated by it. And also for people listening. Or thinking themselves.

God, we're spending a lot of time talking about addiction and recovery. What does this have to do with me? I would just Take a moment and say, You know, when people ask me what do you do? I always kinda flub and don't really know how to answer it. But I I view myself, I guess, first and foremost as a student, not necessarily expert, but student of behavioral change. And if you look at

Alcoholism if you look at other types of substance use slash abuse. If you look at Workaholism if you look at eating disorders. I mean certainly now being over the last several years involved in a lot of scientific study related to different conditions, nicotine addiction.

I don't want to say this too glibly, but they're very overlapping. So it's studying behavioral change in the context of Something like addiction. to alcohol.

I think transcends that and applies to many things in the same way that the training and discipline and pain tolerance that you cultivated through swimming Then was applicable to your studying. Right. So let's talk about the the physical

turnaround because as you mentioned People tend to If I could just interrupt you, can I just interrupt you? Sorry to do that. But I I think there's one kind of final important point that I wanted to make about addiction. I think you're correct. Like a lot of people might be listening and saying, Well, I'm not an alcoholic or an drug addict and I don't know anyone in my life that is either. How is this relevant?

But as somebody who's been kind of steeped in this world for for many, many years and Like yourself, I've had many guests on my podcast to discuss this subject matter. I've become increasingly more and more convinced. That We

are both very cavalier in how we define addiction, like I'm a chocolate or I'm a shopaholic. It's a throwaway phrase, but at the same time we're also very rigid in how we define it. In that Addiction is like heroin addiction or opioid addiction and alcoholism. But I think

I'm becoming convinced that that addiction lives on this incredibly broad spectrum. And it's a spectrum so broad that almost anybody can find themselves Somewhere along the line. So on the one hand you have, you know, the guy who can't pull the needle out of his arm. But on the very far other side of the spectrum you have people who

you know, find themselves repeating the same you know, tired self defeating narrative about their life and can't get outside of themselves to see an objective truth about themselves or the person who is repeatedly in the same bad relationship time and time again, or the person who is addicted to, you know, whatever it is, like video games or social media scrolling. I mean the social dilemma has really foisted this conversation onto mainstream audiences in a way that I think is is is allowing us to really

think about addiction more broadly because of the devices that we all have in our pockets. And so With that I think it's helpful to people to understand that there are tools available to help you

decouple from whatever that thing is that is holding you hostage or creating that obsessive compulsive behavior that you can't seem to transcend. Despite your best efforts. And the twelve steps, yes, like they are crucial and instrumental in helping people get off drugs and alcohol. But

They're very helpful to anybody, you know, just to be able to do an inventory of your life and to see yourself more objectively and to understand that you can redress. these shameful incidents in your life,'cause we all have them on some level. I think is really profound. And to the extent that we are talking about addiction in this broader context right now, I think is super helpful. Because you know, this is an era in which you know more people have been

Become addicted, then ever before with substances and and behaviors. And so to have a conversation about this, I think is super important. Yeah. I'm really happy we're doing this. And also the broad applicability of Concepts.

From the twelve step programs or AA in this case, like for instance, I'd never heard this term, but I wrote it down lower companions. Yeah. I mean it's just such a perfect Phrase perfect phrasing for what we all kind of intuit on some level, but having a simple label for it. It makes it much

Easier to wield. Kind of conceptually, right? And thinking about it. About your life. We're gonna get to the the physical piece because I have Just selfishly many questions about that. And I'm sure a lot of listeners will be interested in that and it's related

Let me throw out another mnemonic of sorts, but it's it's a very short Phrase. that I'd love to hear you speak to in any way that makes sense. Mood follows action. Yeah, I love that one.

That was something that my First sponsor said to me very early on in sobriety, I think I was complaining to him about some commitment I had made to sweep the floors or make coffee or Something along those lines or or something that had happened to me that day that I was annoyed with and I couldn't see my way through.

And You know, he just said mood follows action. And what he meant by that Is You can't Think your way

into the mood that you seek or the state of mind that you aspire to inhabit. Action is the only thing that can trigger that change state. And I literally think about this every single day, and it was validated recently. in a podcast that I did with Andrew Huberman, who I know has been on your show. Where he studied

the neurochemistry of this and realize that Behavior has to come first and thoughts, perceptions, emotions follow. From that. And When you think about that.

in the context of our daily lives. Like let's just use running, for example. Like if you wake up in the morning and you're supposed to do a run because you're training for some race and you don't feel like doing it. We all Resort to that. state where we think, Well, I don't want to do it right now. I'll just wait until I feel like doing it and then I'll do it then. And when we

Engage That way we end up never doing it, right? Like If you're waiting until you feel like doing something, chances are you're probably never gonna get to it. But to take the action despite how you feel about it. is the thing that catalyzes the state change and

in my case or anybody who's a runner. They'll tell you when they finish the run, they're always glad that they did it. They don't generally regret it and then they feel better. And I think that that example is applicable to, you know, all areas of life. So when did you turn

I mean it's of course in the bio says at age forty. Why did you Decide to turn the ship around. Physically. So

After getting sober at thirty one. And emerging from that treatment center where I lived for a hundred days, which is a pretty long time to be in a treatment center. And being told by the counsellors that you have a very serious case of alcoholism, the kind of case that we typically only see in lifelong drinkers like guys in their sixties. It was impressed upon me that I really needed to get this right or I was gonna die.

That point was made to me. very clearly and I was able to hear it and take it seriously. And so I was super dedicated to Creating This foundation of

sobriety because my life truly did hang in the balance. And so that became my main priority. Sure. Many years after that.

experience. So I returned to Los Angeles. I was going to multiple meetings a day. I was doing like all the stuff and building a new community of friends because I needed I needed new people to you know, I just I couldn't hang out or go to the places that I had been going to before. And with that was also unpacking the shame that I had about being this person who had all of this potential And all of these opportunities that I had

Squandered. And I felt compelled to repair all of that and get back to becoming that person that I was before I started drinking. And I did that with blinders on.

In my mind, the best way to do that was to go back to the law firm and, you know, work my ass off and become a partner and get all the stuff so that the world would smile upon me and my parents would think that I was safe. Alcoholics Anonymous is a spiritual program and I was developing spiritually, but I had not yet reached the level of maturity where I could really look inward and ask myself those fundamental questions about

what it is that I actually want it to do rather than thinking what is society expecting me to do But what is unique to me, what gets me excited in the morning, what do you think that you're here to express that is uniquely you? Like that just was not part of my mental process in in in any way. And so A lot of those addictive

personality traits, although I was not using substances anymore, were channeled into workaholism. And in turn some pretty unhealthy lifestyle habits. So basically eighty hour weeks Working as a lawyer. And you know, hitting the fast food drive throughs on the way home and Chinese takeout for late nights at work and and the like. And really, despite the fact that I had been this when we're in college. not exercising, just not really attending to or taking care of myself physically.

And so over A ten year period that accumulates. Such that by the time I was thirty nine, I was about fifty pounds overweight. You know, never like an obese person or anything like that, but just kind of like a heavy guy who looks like, you know, he works he works too much in a law firm and subsisting on junk food and and just feeling progressively worse and worse, lazier.

Not energized, not enthusiastic about my life. And I think in the back of my awareness was this percolating existential crisis because I knew that this career path that I had chosen was really not for me. And I could will myself into doing it, but ultimately It was

not only not making me happy, it was making me more and more miserable like this square peg and a in a round hole kind of thing. But I was too afraid to really look at that or think about how I could Change that trajectory.

I guess what I'm saying is there was a confluence of Poor health. on the one side and this spiritual existential crisis that I was harboring on the other hand. And they essentially collided with each other. shortly before I turned forty, when I had this specific moment of

Walking up. the flight of stairs to my bedroom after A late night at the office. And uh I had to like stop halfway up a s a flight of stairs. Like I was too winded to just walk all the way to the top. And I had tightness in my chest and

Like I was had that sweaty pallor on my face from a flight of stairs and thinking I'm like this person who had swam at Stanford and would look in the mirror and see that person reflected back to me, I realized that I was harboring a whole other level of denial that I needed to look at. And it was a scary moment because heart disease runs in my family. My mother's father had been a champion swimmer and captain of the University of Michigan swim team in the

late nineteen twenties and early thirties, and a guy who had an American record and somebody who he's a guy that I'm named after and in many ways like my doppelganger, but he had died of heart disease at a young age. And I had this flash where I realized if I didn't course correct how I was living. That I was

likely headed in his direction. And would meet my demise probably sooner than he had because there was no McDonald's and Jack in the Box when he was kicking around. It was sort of like a second bottom. That was very reminiscent of the day I decided to get sober. Like this very crystallized moment in time.

Where it's almost like a window of opportunity. presents itself like a a a crack the door or a line in the sand. And you have this opportunity To harness it. Take advantage of it.

And Take contrary action. Or not. Right, and because I was so aware Of how that simple decision of going to that treatment center had changed my life so dramatically.

That I was being once again visited by just such a moment. I realized that I needed to take action swiftly because if I didn't kind of grab onto it immediately, I knew It would just Pass and become ephemera. And so that was really

The moment that catalyze kind of everything that that followed and even the fact that I'm talking to you today, it all tracks back to that very specific incident. What year are we talking? More or less, do you recall? So yeah, this would have been

Let's see. Two thousand I was just about to turn forty, so Two thousand six. Okay.

Did this coincide with something I've read you describe as complete financial dismantlement, which sounds Brutal.

Doesn't sound pleasant. Was that around the same time before or Coinciding? That started a little bit later. It was sort of precipitated by the crash in two thousand eight. And it continued through

uh years after publishing Finding Ultra, like it was a very extended period of time of of of being challenged to even put food on the table. Yeah, we I have all these cheat sheets in front of me, of course. And you know, one of the one of the questions I I like to ask, as you well know, you know, what what is the best or most worthwhile investment you've ever made? Could be time, money, energy, et cetera. And I give various examples of this, but it could be Warren Buffett talking about his best investment being investing in Dale Carnegie speaking classes or anything at all. You have a couple here. Three.

Decision to train for two thousand eight Ultraman, stepping back from the law to right finding Ultra. And then starting your podcast. When and So we could focus on the first one, but I want to If it's okay with you and feel free to redirect.

Look at the second one. Stepping back from the law to right finding ultra. When was that that you step back to do that? I started writing it in Late two thousand ten or early two thousand eleven. Okay. So the reason the reason I ask

There seem to be these inflection points and right inflection could go multiple directions, not only up, but there seem to be Certain decisions that in retrospect. Just really make a lot of difference in direction.

How did you decide to step back from the law to write this book? Given the complete financial dismantlement and all these various things going on. at the time and was it an easy or hard decision? Mm.

I think it was a little bit of both at that time. I had already been scaling back on my law practice. I was balancing training for these crazy races, which we can talk about. And becoming less and less interested in being a lawyer. And at that time I was self-employed as a lawyer. I I had made the step of getting out of the big corporate Law firm hustle and had a di a couple different incarnations of of of my practice being solo, being with a couple partners, etcetera.

So I had flexibility over how I was allocating my time and the four hour work week was actually really helpful uh at that time and helping me wrap my head around how I could straddle these both worlds and and still get things done. So the truth is I had already begun to take my foot off the gas a little bit on the law practice. But the opportunity to write this book was such a remarkable occurrence that I could have never

predicted happening in in my life. And I just felt so grateful to even have the opportunity. That was an inbound email or Outreach of some type. It's actually a really interesting story. So what happened was I had been doing these races and getting some notoriety for it and some press. And an article

came out in the Stanford Alumni magazine. And it had mentioned what I was doing. It had also mentioned that I had had this struggle with alcoholism and had been sober for a while. And somebody who I only knew very tangentially sent me an email and said, Hey, I read that article.

I'm recently out of a treatment center, like he was an alumni. Recently out of treatment center, and I'm the CEO of this company. My board doesn't know, like, I need somebody to talk to, like, can we just talk? And so I struck up a phone relationship with this person and was just trying to help him and, you know, guide him to make good decisions about how to conduct himself in early sobriety. And at some point

He said Hey, I know this. book agent, like you have such an amazing story. Let me introduce you to this person. And it At that time I hadn't thought of writing a book. It wasn't on my list of things that I was thinking of doing Um and

That conversation with that book agent. basically made me feel comfortable. Giving it a stab. And it was kind of a charmed thing where I wrote a proposal. I worked really hard on it because I recognized the unique and amazing opportunity it presented.

And that led to getting a book deal really quickly. And so suddenly my life priorities change because I was able to recognize that This could be a lever that would propel me into An entirely new

universe opportunities and trajectories with my career. So prioritizing the writing of that book was like the most important professional commitment that I made at that time. And and and really created the foundation for Me me being able to do kind of all the things that I do now. You do quite a few things.

And uh quite well, I will add. Uh you're welcome. I should say, can I just say like really quickly, sorry to interrupt you, but like You have no idea how much that means to me, Tim. Like it it really is meaningful that you said that because I look to you and the example that you've set and all the things that you have done in the world in such a remarkable fashion, and I aspire to

your level of impact and and influence. Um and I just also so I I wanted to thank you for that. And thank you also for being a support to me like when the book came out You let me do a guest blog post. for your site. I think I pestered you and until you finally relented, but uh that was a hu you know, that was extremely helpful to me at the time. And you have no idea how much I appreciate that.

Oh thank you, Rich. Well it w it was my it was my pleasure and I will say that Yeah. A compelling story is a compelling story. So I

Really appreciate. the kind words and you're doing a hell of a job, man. I mean I I really admire the work that you're doing in the world and it's fun for me to be sitting here Asking you for very thinly failed advice. I've been very indirect so far. But But thank you for that.

And I I figure Just as a way of and we can go anywhere we want to go, of course, but we're recording this around the turn of the new year. I am in the next year gonna turn 45.

And uh I've realized just in the last few years, really, that Yeah, because I used to Not at your level. with within this kind of dynastic

Famed. team at at Stanford for swimming. which we might come back to at some point. Uh but had competed in his as an athlete and when I competed, I found it very easy motivate.

Uh for a lot of reasons, right? I mean uh but there's a lot of positive and negative reinforcement involved when you compete. And then in the last let's just call it four or five years. Have continued to train but in a pretty laxadasical Ad Hawkaway. Lots of travel. going to gyms, kind of figuring out what I'm going to do when I get to the gym. No real programming to speak of.

And what I've realized in the last few years is what I was able to pull off for Let's just say Ten years of Decent

kind of mediocre to h high mediocre. Training is just not gonna cut it. moving forward, metabolically or otherwise. And I've trained before And having competed before and and I have found

A lot of shame around And and judgment around having let it slip, if that makes any sense. And nonetheless, right have Have really decided all right. Twenty twenty two. This is the year.

that I want to make some significant changes. Given the book, given your podcast, you have no doubt observed many people try to emulate what you've done to differing degrees of success. What advice would you give to someone in my shoes? Co could be ad advice to me, but someone who is considering this Sort of doing a reboot.

Given the sort of s the sample set that you've Observed over time. Or just from your direct experience. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess the first thing I would ask you, Tim, is like why? What is going on? What's beneath The

kind of surface level aspect of this that you just shar? What is it that you feel is lacking that would be fulfilled by you pursuing some kind of fitness goal? Is it just like, oh, I'm starting to feel lazy or I've slipped off or I don't feel the way that I'd like to feel right now? Or like I always like to ask that first because people are very Casual and cavalier about saying, I want to do this goal, like I want to do this race or whatever. And I'm always like, why? Like, why is that important? Why is that important to you? Right. So that would be the first thing I would ask you.

Yeah, I I have answers. So the the first I think overarching answer is mood follows action. Right. So I know that when I am training consistently with a purpose. of some type. Not just going to yoga a few times a week. I can do that. I can lift weights Two or three times a week, but Training with a purpose, I find, just leads me to a

Better. mental, psychoemotional state. More often than not. It is the most reliable Intervention, so to speak. So that would be part one.

Part two. And We'll see where this goes, but I really, really miss The camaraderie of being on

A team or striving towards a similar Go. Probably w it doesn't have to I've never had that experience in a co ed capacity, so it it doesn't necessarily have to be all men, but that experience Which I have found challenging to replicate. Outside of

Sports. Would be another. Reason. You know, I stopped doing Judo and Jujitsu and so on quite a while ago just because of the number of injuries. I'm okay with intermittent injuries. I they just take a lot longer to heal from now than they did when I was Yes. Sixteen to twenty two. Or whatever.

So those would be top of the list. And I think that related to the first answer, this like mood follows action, I think that self And we could probably pick this apart, I'm sure, but like self image also follows action. Like I just have I feel better about myself when I am Training. With some degree of

Focus. And A goal of some type. You know, especially if it's time bound, I just do very well with that. And I haven't

you know, over covet and everything else, not to make excuses, but I I have I have been very bad at doing that. And and still like I'm training a couple times a week, but I've realized I'm barely skating by. Kind of like look fit with clothing on fit, which is Not enough for me at this point.

I enjoy I should also say I just I really I do enjoy Pushing myself. physically. Right. Maybe not to the point like when I was much younger, I would like go for training runs for or s or sprint workouts for wrestling or whatever, and I would run until like the blood vessels would burst in corn of my eyes. Like I don't need to do that anymore. I think that's kinda kinda silly for me at this point.

But that's that's a long winded Answer. To your question. Yeah, well I think That's a great answer. And and just knowing enough about you to know how important

structure is to you like setting really measurable tangible goals and benchmarks, like that's kind of how you operate. And that's the easy part for you, but I think the harder part is Figuring out what is the character of the actual pursuit, right? And I would start with curiosity, like what is it that is something you're interested in learning or exploring that might be something new that sits a little bit outside of your comfort zone, but is intriguing enough for you to wanna explore it.

it's easy to say, well, you should do this race, or you should try this, or you should join a team. But I think curiosity is really the most important piece. Like'cause if you're not interested in it if you're not if it's not something that's gonna Get you excited and have some ability to retain your attention and enthusiasm, chances are like you're gonna get bored or you're you're just gonna you're gonna drop off. So yeah starting with that, I think is important because I could tell you you should do this, but only you know what that might look like, but I would suggest that

Spending time with that curiosity and then figuring out how you can pursue that learning curve in a challenging fitness context that also involves community or team building on some level,'cause that's the other piece that you feel like you're missing. And I I get that. Like I I miss that too, you know, and I do most of my training alone. And when I do group runs, I'm like, I should do this more. Like this is so fun. And yet I don't do it. So I relate to that deeply. But I think those would be good. Starting.

places like things that come to mind for me is some kind of adventure race, you know, or or something where it involves other people and lots of different types of skill sets that come into play that Is Kind of scary, but also Experiential and potentially very fun.

Yeah, or orienteering, something like that. And I should also say that the the team Or The team piece is also it could be a partner piece. And I think fundamentally for me what that is is an accountability piece.

Mm-hmm. Because And uh and I'm sure you experience this quite a bit too. It's like it's not the pursuit of bad ideas. I mean it could be, but it's it's not the

the pursuit of bad ideas or worthless Tasks that will drown you. It's like saying yes to too many Cool ish things. Not a handful or one truly great thing. Does that make sense? Right. So This is like this is like my major malfunction these days. Like I am dying death by a thousand cuts these days because of like cool stuff that I want to do and say yes to to you know too frequently.

Yeah. So you can just drown in that stuff and if I don't have This is gonna sound really bad. I know a lot of An anchor. You need an anchor An anchor. I need an anchor. There needs to be a consequence to me being like eh. I'm doing this bullshit on my laptop at four PM and I'm gonna push off this workout that's scheduled for Four thirty. I want uh there to be a consequence to that. And uh you know, there are a lot of ways to set up stakes and consequences, but a very easy way to do it is just to train with somebody. Uh which is part of the reason why one of the

Most consistent forms of exercise I've been able to get In the last say Six months. Is rock climbing. Because I'm going with a ballet partner. And if they show up and I'm not there, it's just it's a real dick move. So adventure racing

I was thinking orienteering possibly, although I say that really knowing very little. About it. Are there any other characteristics that you've been able to spot? amongst just patterns of people making attempts at this over and over again. The other thing I would point out is the is the tendency to indulge in a little bit of analysis paralysis.

You could spend the next year trying to figure out what mountain it is that you want to climb or how you're going to get there. And I have a sense that you know, maybe this might be a thing for you. And I think there's a lot of value in not overthinking things and just Saying this is something that's interesting to me. I'm just gonna decide right now, I'm gonna do this thing, and it's like six months from now, and it's in the calendar, and I have no idea how I'm gonna get there. But it's there. And I think That that

compulsion to want to know all the answers and how it's gonna play out and all the steps you're gonna need to take to get there. Can prevent us from moving forward in our lives. And I think These situations in my experience are rigged such that you're not supposed to know all of those answers because you're rewarded for actually

getting into action. Like it's tangential to mood falls action. Like the bricks get laid, you know, only two steps in front of you and you're not allowed to see the whole thing. Right. Like if you're tr like use Iron Man, for example, or triathlon, like what bike should I get? Well you can go around that merry go round forever, but ultimately the best bike is the one that's sitting Gathering dust in your garage. Just do go do a race with that and you'll figure out all that stuff as you go. And it becomes the more you do it, the more emotionally engaged you get with it. And then it These things tend to, you know, develop a life of of their own.

Alright, I I have A very specific question for you. It came up before we started recording. And I th you know this is Something I know very little about. So you can s you can safely assume that I can be a very effective stand in for anyone in the audience who doesn't know what this is. Zone two training. Could you share your thoughts?

recommendations, cautionary tales, anything. related to zone two training, perhaps beginning with as you know, Dr. Peter Tia has has spoken quite widely about What is zone two training?

First of all, like your conversation with Peter on the subject matter and then Peter I know has done like AMAs where he's dove very deeply into this topic. are fantastic listens and everybody should check that out if they're interested in this subject matter because my version of explaining this will be a very layperson's experiential version of it compared to Peter's very scientific and eloquent you know yeah exactly yeah I'm a huge huge proponent of zone two training. And I believe that My

Fidelity And adoration of the zone two philosophy is a cornerstone in how I was able to be successful. in ultra endurance triathlon in my mid forties. So zone two Basically is a cage of

Energy output. In aerobic exercise. That Essentially is the state In which

You are exerting yourself at essentially a conversational level. You are in your aerobic zone. where your body can make use of one of two sources of energy, glucose or fat.

And it is the level of exertion that lives and breathes just beneath where you cross a certain threshold and go into A more anaerobic state, which is Dependent. more or exclusively on

glycogen stores for energy. in endurance training, zone two I think is absolutely crucial. for success because it is the best way. Or the methodology that you leverage to create efficiency, which is something that that Peter has talked about. So most people

When they go out for a run, let's say they go on a run, a forty five minute run, like three or four times a week or something like that. Most people Will go out and they will exert themselves. So that they feel like they had a vigorous run. Like they'll run as fast as they can. for that period of time so that when they're finished, they feel like oh I got something out of that.

Zone two is a level of output that is quite a bit beneath that level of exertion because when you're doing that kind of mindlessly, like I'm just going out for a vigorous run. Most typically you are in what is called the gray zone. You're going too hard and too fast. To really develop that aerobic capacity and engine and efficiency, but you're not going hard enough.

speed and the anaerobic kind of capacity that you're looking for for those Really fast, shorter. Burst.

And in that gray zone, which is where most average people live and breathe, You can get to a certain point, but you will very quickly and really never Go beyond that. Zone two is a is a certain kind of discipline because it's asking you to hold back. Zone two is the level of output where basically you can get up and do it every day, and quite often you complete the workout and you feel

Like you didn't do anything, and you, you have this impulse to want to go faster. So you have to hold back from doing that. But essentially what it does is it. As Peter talks about, develop helps you develop a greater mitochondrial density in your muscles. And in ultra endurance This is absolutely crucial.

Because there's nothing about ultra endurance. That is fast. It has nothing to do with threshold power. Or speed or any of that. truly the ability to

Efficiently. persist. So The prize doesn't go to the fastest guy, it goes to the person who slows down the least. And when you live in this zone two place where your training

For long periods of time. Developing this capacity. What you're doing is you're building this foundation of endurance from the ground up. And the way that you kind of calculate your zone, I mean Peter talks about this. I go in for proper lactate testing. I'm on a bike and I get my finger pricked as the watts go up.

And you get this heart rate zone and this watt zone. Where in you understand like this is the level of exertion required to like be right in the sweet spot of all of this. When I began training for these races My zone two

pace when I was running was like 10 minutes a mile or 10 30 or something like that, but by rigorously adhering to this without doing any interval training or any tempo work. Over a two year period I got to the point where I could run seven minute miles at the same heart rate. So the same amount of Energy output.

But That level of increase in spід. Not by doing any speed work. but by literally creating efficiencies and developing that mitochondrial density. And ultimately what you're also doing is Training the body to metabolize fat for fuel, which is your

Yeah, all day source of energy. Like you literally will never run out of it. So in my experience training the body to metabolize fat for fuel has really been it's an N of one and experiential experience that I've had, but it's really

Much more about how you're training than what it is that you're eating or when you're eating it. Like I've just found this training to be the best way to get into that place. of the body learning how to you know, metabolize fuel in that way. So that you can literally continue to go for as long as you want.

And there are And certainly I'll I'll link in the show notes to the conversations with Peter The T that go. Probably deeper than technical. It's great. It's great. It does get technical, but Peter knows his stuff. I'll provide some links to that for people who want to to dig in. I would You chopped it out and then put it at the end, and I went immediately to the end to like listen to all of that.

Right. So for people who haven't heard this episode, basically the first maybe it was the first question and we launched into the cellular metabolism involved with zone two training and uh mitochondrial density. And I thought, you know, maybe the twenty minute appendix should be put at the end as an appendix. Just so that we can get people in the door. So we're not having people do calculus uh on their way into the club, maybe on the way out. But It is a great it is a great section. So we'll we'll link to that in the show notes at Tim.blog slash podcast. Question for you, and this may be a dead end, but I'm just curious, have you Explored using Keetone meters.

as you have adapted and increased your mitochondrial density through zone two training. And the reason I'm asking is I'm wondering If you've noticed, for instance This is something I track but without the zone two training. In the case of say a two or three day fast.

how quickly will go to will shift over to say, you know, 0.7 millimolars or something like that. Get to the point where I feel like I am in ketosis just subjectively through. cognitive sharpness, uh, you know, mental acuity generally. Have you played around with that or at all or seen a faster switchover? No, I've never I haven't. I haven't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't have the experience with that. Would make sense though. That would make a lot of sense.

How frequently Is it necessary to do zone two training? I'm sure it's highly individual, but just painting with a broad brush. to begin to accrue some of the benefits that we're talking about. Yeah, I think Peter answered this question and I I believe he gave a a window of something like three months or something like three to six months.

I would say that this is not like the way to hack yourself to success because it requires a significant investment in time. Like you have to play the long game to really reap The huge benefits of this type of training. It's not an overnight kind of thing. I started to realize gains maybe I started to realize gains maybe

around six months into it. But I didn't really garner the full buffet of what it was availing me for like it took two years, like basically is what I'm saying. Like The longer you do it, the more efficient you become.

And then the longer you can go The further you can sustain a certain level of effort. And these adapt adaptations are like not overnight. But I think it's like when you're looking at like it's not like what are you gonna do this year, but like three years if you're on like a three year plan. I think really doubling down on this philosophy. There's so much

benefit to it. But it depends on what your goal is, too. I'm in the process of figuring that out. I have to I have to I have to dig into that curiosity we were talking about earlier. And uh certainly part of that'll be know thyself. Still working on that. I think I've been in the gray zone side note for like two years, which is probably has some explanatory power. So there are three things

At least three things, but three things I would love Two hear you speak to and I'll I'll let you you mentioned buffet, so well I'll throw out three. And then you can pick whichever one you want to tackle first. So One.

Is sleeping in a tent. Two. is taking a full month off the grid every year. And then uh Number

Three is your daily architecture. So not committing to certain things or focusing on certain things. Mm-hmm. Up to twelve noon. Uh which which one of those Would you like to

Dig into. I mean we could go any direction you want. I mean we could start with the tent. Let's start with the 10th. Yeah. I've been sleeping Outside in a tent for a couple of years at this point, I think a little over two years.

And I absolutely love it. It's really been beneficial to my sleep and it's something that started From A frustration

Over My increasing inability to get Restful slumber. And the impetus, like kind of original impetus was My wife

Lik the bedroom warm. I like the bedroom cold. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this relationship dynamic. And no matter how much we would try to compromise to make it good for both of us. Julie would always be bundled up under a ton of covers and I'm sleeping on top of the covers, like sweating, and then neither of us sleeps, and we get up and we're not happy. We have a flat you've been in my house. I have a flat roof on my house, and one summer evening. We did a sleepover on the roof with the kids, and we have a flat wall where we would project movies and we're like eating popcorn and we all just kind of slept on the roof that night. And in sleeping bags and I woke up the next day just feeling amazing, like from the

outdoor air and the cool, like desert air of Los Angeles. And I'm like I can't remember the last time I slept so well. So I I told Julie, I was like, I'm just gonna sleep on the roof again tonight. And it really began from there. And I just fell in love with being out there's something about being outdoors that just agrees with me and the kind of cool Evening air. But I would wake up covered in condensation, like completely wet. So I was like, All right, I gotta get a tent. So then I got a tent.

the tent was on the roof, then it got windy, I moved the tent to the ground, but I've really just Enjoyed it. And As I get older, like I'm so protective of my sleep and it's so important to me.

That I get those eight hours because I know what it feels like not to get them. And I s it still eludes me quite often. Like I I really struggle with this, but it's been a huge benefit in the quality of my sleep and I enjoy it.

People always ask like, well, you know, they think I'm having like some kind of fight with my wife or something like that. Like We have our quality time, I promise you. Like everything is fine in my marriage. We've been together for a very long time. So it's all good. And I also think it's been a cool Kind of stoic practice. 'Cause I I I live in a really nice house and I have nice things.

But I actually prefer to sleep in the tent. And there's something about that where It gives me comfort, like if everything went terribly wrong and I lost everything, like I know that I'm happy sleeping in a tent and I don't really need that much, ultimately. And that

That's been Really kind of Nice in cultivating a little bit of a minimalist sensibility about how I live. So you decided being blown off the roof while you're sleeping is probably not a good idea. I second that.

Do you have mountain lions? Around those parts? We do and I I go running and all the trails all around you know where I live in the Santa Monica mountains. I know they're there. I've never seen one, but they're definitely there. Where our our property is fenced, so I feel

Okay. They're there. They're real, but Yeah. I don't know. We'll see. I remember this experience in Northern California up By Napa I went on this hiking trip.

And everybody at the same time got the feeling that they were being watched. And I was like, Yeah, we should probably pay attention to that. Mountain lions everywhere. Forgive me, but A, I wanna know. B, my my listeners will be annoyed if I don't ask. So you you you did a lot of trial and error with tent. Yeah, and the setup and everything else. What does your gear look like currently? After two years of trying it out. Yeah. It's well, I'm I'm actually at a at a turning point with all of this. I've been sleeping in like a North Face tent that I've had for a while, but

The these tents tend to only last maybe Four or five months at most, because the sun just beats them up and then they turn into like tissue paper. So I'm constantly getting new tents. And finally I was like, this is ridiculous. So I just bought like a proper canvas like glamping tent and we haven't

Constructed it yet. deck build. I'm gonna make it like kind of like a cool outdoor structure. So that's the next chapter in all this, but For the last two years, it's been a series of, you know, basically, you know, small tents in the backyard. I have a mattress in there, so I'm not sleeping on the ground. And tons of blankets, which is part of the appeal. Like there was frost when I woke up this morning. It was great. I slept fantastic last night. But a key thing that I that I

have been using for a couple of years is a gravity blanket. Which I absolutely love. I don't know if you've had any Expensive. Yeah, I have one upstairs. I have one upstairs. So why why What is the gravity blanket and why do you find it helpful? Gravity blanket is a a weighted.

There's different types of them, but essentially they're quilted with like uh I don't know, sand in them or different types of of heavy materials. So and they come in different weights. So I think mine is like a twenty-five pound Like it. So imagine that experience of being at the dentist and you're getting an X ray and they put that like lead mat on your chest. And think

Is that a pleasant experience for you or an unpleasant experience for you? And when I think about that. I kinda like it. Like there's something about it. Swabing clothes. Yeah. It's like being protected. You know, it's like telling my sympathetic nervous system that I'm safe. And I believe I could be wrong, but I believe that that was the original Use case

for the gravity blanket to treat people with autism who have trouble calming down and it had this impact of like soothing them. And that's certainly, you know, been my experience using it. And I I love it. You use it at night. Put that on top of your blankets. Alright, sit tent.

Check. Any other modifications that you've made? To your tenting experience. Come to mind. No, I mean I wear an I have an eye mask.

But what type of eye mask? Of course. The Tim Farrish. I forgot what podcast I'm on. I gotta ask. The Mindfold. I like the Mindfold. Oh, Mindfolds are great. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Check. Alright, now

Thank you for indulging that. Inquiring minds want to know, of course. And you know, for for people who uh What another example of this type of stoic practice, different type of time frame, but Kevin Kelly

who's been on the podcast at least two times. Arguably the world's most interesting man. He will Sleep in his living room. In a sleeping bag. kind of surviving on

As I recall Instant oatmeal and Instant coffee for Maybe like a w a week a year. Two weeks a year, just as a little reminder that

All is well, everything's fine. But I I like the idea of sleeping sleeping outside a lot more personally. So daily architecture or weekly architecture, just schedule wise. Mm. Seems like you rarely schedule. certain types of things before noon your time. Could you speak to

Speak to that and perhaps Just tell the Genesis story, like how and when did you begin doing that? Because that's quite a uh that is Contraindicated if you're doing eighty hour weeks. Right. So there's there's a

There was a transition. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that that didn't really become a possibility until I was self employed and I think I start Started practicing it. originally when I was writing Finding Ultra because I needed I needed quiet hours before work began to just be focused on that important thing. Um and I've just built upon it.

from there. So essentially I'm early to bed, early to rise. I go to bed like around nine. And uh generally get up. Around Five, five, between five and six. And the early hours are are really

protected as my own time. So Morning meditation. Journaling. Writing.

Creative projects. No meetings, no phone calls, like certainly like we're doing this podcast this morning. So I'll make exceptions like we're doing this in the morning. But as a general rule, I try not to commit to anything outside of those practices. for that initial phase of the day. And so after I finish those practices, then I I do my training in the morning.

And I try to get that done. before I go into the work day. How Frequently would you say you succeed. If you and I'm not

to to ever expect it to be a hundred percent. I'm just curious. what you would say it looks like. And when you get something,'cause we were talking about the death by a thousand cuts earlier. When you get really tempting stuff. What do you do? Right. Like sometimes you make exceptions, but if you if you made all the exceptions then the schedule wouldn't work. Right, because I'm sure you have people push stuff earlier in the day. So

So what's your what would you say your hit rate is? And How do you contend with the The temptations. I would say outside of situations where I'm traveling, my hit rate's about eighty five percent. So I'm pretty I'm pretty good. Yeah. And also the the people that I generally work with like all know this now. So

It's less often that I'm asked to do things during those hours because they know. And I've gotten much better at just Not agreeing to do stuff. conference calls Zoom calls and stuff like that during that period of time. But if somebody's in the UK or in an you know a very a radically different time zone, like there's situations where it's like Okay, am I gonna be the huge pain in the ass or am I gonna just

Make an exception. Make them do the zoom call at eleven PM. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm too much of a people pleaser for that, and that's the war that I'm always waging. Like healthy boundary versus like the desire to be liked is like the battleground in my head. And so I'm pretty good about that. The death by a thousand cuts shows up in other areas of my life. Particularly like

regarding stuff that Isn't due or isn't gonna happen for a long period of time. Like if it's far enough out on the calendar, I'll pretty much agree to anything. And then and then that day arrives and you're like, what am I doing? I'm never doing this again. And then the following week you're, you know, reaping the same thing. So That's like my Mount Everest right now. And listen, these are problems of of abundance. They're the result of you know, working very hard to create something that is interesting to people. And so you get offered cool stuff. And I want to take advantage of all the cool stuff. Like I know what it's like to

Not Have people interested in you know, having me involved in cool stuff, but at what cost, right? And it's really hard. To do that. It's like, do you want to go do this amazing thing? You're like, A hundred percent I do.

But What are you really trying to accomplish? Where is your focus? Vested. And calibrating those opportunities against

The things that are most important in your life. And you know, I have four kids. Like I have, you know, I have other responsibilities outside of my professional responsibilities that are important to me. So I'm not always great at making those decisions, but I think I'd like to think that I'm getting a little bit better. Well eighty five percent hit rate's really good. Uh,

pre noon thing. That's not for like fielding all incoming, you know. Stop. Still. That's a good protected zone. You know, I I've I'm And no surprise to anyone, just fascinated by how people think about scheduling and time. I know that you've been doing some workouts at uh Laird Hamilton and

And Gabby Reese's place in the pool. XP T and all that, which is Side note on sleep. I have probably never slept better than after a really long workout with weights in the pool. My God. It's incredible. Uh it's just amazing. And They have such

unique lives and the way that they Live their lives. Fiercely independently. And They came to mind also because I was thinking about

Rick Rubin, the legendary music producer, has been on this podcast. Who also I'm not sure where he is now, but often spends time with them and has his little corner in the pool where he does his work out but Rick As far as I can tell.

Basically doesn't schedule. Like ninety nine percent of life is unscheduled. It's kinda like Yeah. Like ping me and if it works, it'll work. And I really admire his ability to do that. I haven't been able to ace that. At this point.

So hence the questions about all of this. A month off the grid every year. Is this let's go to the Genesis story for this. How and why This is a priority. So you mentioned earlier on this extended period of of financial dismantlement that we endured as a family. And it was a very painful extended period of time where

I really struggle to figure out how to provide for my family. In a meaningful way. And It's now all solved and everything's great. But I think

There was a significant amount of PTSD that I experienced from that, because it was very emasculating and scary for me. You know, once Things started functioning properly and Working A lot of my workmendencies kind of

came to the forefront. And I became so focused on building this thing and Protecting it. And making sure that it was

providing for my family that I started to kind of overlook. the principles that put me in the position to create it in the first place. the adage of like all this wellness is making me sick. Like I was so you know, you know like I was just working my ass off. Right. And as you know, doing this show and doing other things in your life, like it's a lot more work than people think. Like it's a it's a grind and you can lose yourself in it. And a couple of years ago I

Started tiptoeing up. to burn out and instead of being excited to have conversations with my guests, I wouldn't say I was dreading it, but I was I was moving in that direction. And that's not a relationship that I wanted to have with this thing that you and I both do that we obviously really care about. It should be a joyful experience and

You know, I hadn't taken a single vacation in like five years, like no Break. It was insane. So I was due for it. And so I ended up taking a month off and I went to Australia. And it was incredibly nourishing and I was able to come back from that. experience with a renewed and refreshed

perspective and and and relationship with what I do and I just decided that this was gonna be an annual thing. So I'm getting ready to do. I'm taking January off this year. And I'm really looking forward to it. I need it and I think it you know, it's important. To understand in a performance context that you have to periodize your life just like you would periodize your training. Like you need those

fallow periods to recharge the battery. And you have to live your life if you're going to have anything worthy to say about the human experience. If you're just constantly engaging in your profession and focused on You know, what it is that you do. and you're missing out on the other experiences and the richness of life, then you're not really gonna be carrying a meaningful resonance or vibration that's gonna be helpful to other people.

Let's go to pre Australia for a moment because no vacation in five years. And then I took a month off and it was great. I feel like we're skipping a few steps. What did the preparation Slash self talk, logistics, anything look like leading up to Australia. And If you wanna mention this first, we can mention this part first, which is what did off really mean? Off didn't mean like completely like like leave the phone at home.

I wish I could tell you that that's what I did. I didn't do that. That is an ambition for this. Experience though. Which is terrifying, but I'm excited about. So what are you asking specifically like the the what type of preparation was required.

If this current example Meaning January coming up is a better case study to take a look at. I'm just wondering what the preparation looks like, right? So you have All of these various Plates that you're spinning.

Of different types. And I I literally just got back a few days ago from About three weeks off the grid. So I'm fresh. Oh wow. Having just returned where I was in Antarctica. So I literally Oh wow. Zero. cell or wifi signal, which was great because the possibility of backsliding is basically

Mm-hmm. Removed entirely unless you want to like sit in a tent by yourself with a satellite phone and try to make that work. Which some people did. Uh but I I did not. So I'm wondering What prep is going into Taking a month off. I'm much more interested in your experience in Antarctica. But well, we can talk about it. I mean, that's amazing. Like what were you why did you decide to go there and what was that about?

I have a friend. Matt Mullenweg, who very close friend. He's been on the podcast uh once or twice. Uh he runs a company. This makes it all the more impressive. So he runs a a company called Automatic M A T T I C, which has something like two thousand employees at the moment. He had Gone to Antarctica, I wanna say I might be getting the numbers.

off but five or six years ago. And had heard Yeah. A trip was being planned which would

Put A small group in Antarctica. for the totality of the solar eclipse at the Empire Penguin Colony, which had never been observed before. in this year. So end of twenty twenty one. And that was the

A number of seats. res made a reservation for A handful of seeds, five or six seeds. And then invited me some time ago and asked me if I wanted to go and I said

Yeah, I absolutely want to go. I mean, when am I next going to have such an invite? And Ended up Landing. In Chile, spending a decent amount of time in Chile, they're very, very, very strict with Covid. So you're getting daily COVID tests, you're being tr you install an app and you're legally required to identify your location and answer surveys. Every day you carry a mobility pass, which is a QR code to go into any establishment.

then interfaces with a database to indicate whether you are green or red. So very, very involved, which it has to be because if if you have an outbreak in Antarctica, the whole operation is done. Right. And then off we went. It had been a while. Been a couple of years.

since uh well certainly since Covid. Hit. That I had spent multiple weeks completely off the grid. Which I I try to spend at least

Two to three weeks per year. One hundred percent off the grid. Meaning If there's an emergency, someone can contact someone who contacts someone who can find a way to reach me, but there's really no contact with the outside world. Otherwise. And so in my case

I love these experiments because and hence my interest in what you're up to also, because you're forced to look at all of your systems, right? Like if you're gone for a week. You can come back and fire fight. you can kind of allow things to go towards entropy and balls to get dropped and then Fix it when you get back.

With the amount that is going on. I imagine in your life, certainly in my life, if you try to do that with three or four weeks, it's just gonna be a catastrophe. So you have to set up systems and policies and update things and take a really close look at like, okay, well, how are wires being approved. How are these following things being handled? Oh, they're being handled in this really labor intensive ad hoc one off way. Let's make a policy for that. What should the policy be?

And All of those or many of those things. outlive the vacation. That's an additional argument in addition to the periodizing of Life, right? The fact that you are a biological system that

does not have infinite amounts of neurotransmitters and cortisol and s really it's a good idea. Gotta phase in and phase out. You know, the other argument for me, and there are many others, of course, I mean enjoying your goddamn vacation would be a great one too. But Is it In the case of someone who's self employed, or maybe even if you are employed, you develop and refine systems that then

Have. Durability and persist once you get back. So I'm just getting back in the saddle after Multiple weeks. Literally have only been in the US for a handful of days. So it's what an amazing experience. Yeah. So I'm on the other side. Uh Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I think now I get where you're coming from. I mean

It's certainly been a situation of putting systems in place and stress testing them. I mean, I have this amazing team right now. When I went to Australia, the team looked a little bit different. It wasn't as mature as it is at this point. But now I've really invested a lot of time and energy in creating structure. Which was not easy for me as a sort of control freak who wants to do everything and be the bottleneck in every decision and every problem. Like I've lived in that that was big a big part of what was leading me towards This burnout was my

refusal to kind of loosen the reins and empower people around me. And that's been In education. Yeah. I'm happy to say I'm now very much more on the other side of, which feels really liberating, and having systems in place so that I can go away. And I've got these people here who have their

eyes on the prize and can take care of a lot of that stuff. But it took many years to get to this place. I had to learn a lot of rocky you know lessons along the way. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, and you definitely will make mistakes. I think part of the calculus for me has been also Expecting that you're going to allow small bad things to happen. Right. Like if you if you try with that.

Being okay with it, right? Because you're never gonna get to like a hundred percent risk mitigation. Like shit's gonna happen. So being okay with that. Uh sort of the the art of letting small things, small bad things happen. to get the the big good things done. Yeah. Let me ask a f just a few more questions because we're coming up on on two hours shortly. And uh certainly we can go Anywhere we'd like. And I'm not in any rush. I I wanted to mention one thing also when we're talking about or when you mentioned committing to things that are five, six, nine months out and then having the the the day of reckoning when you look at your next month and you're like, Oh, for fuck's sake, what did I do to myself? I wanna say it's Esther Dyson.

his well known investor. She is I th I wanna say did cosmonaut training also. later in her life in Russia, but she uses this heuristic. I think I'm getting the attribution right, where she'll ask herself, if this were next Tuesday, would I want to do this thing? And if the answer is no, don't commit to it six months from now either. Yeah. I think Kevin Kelly actually borrowed that from her as well. question. This is one that that uh you've you've heard before and know I ask a lot.

If you could have one billboard. Anywhere with anything on it. What might it say? What might you put on it could be. Image quote question line. Just uh metaphorically getting something out to

Many, many, many millions or billions of people. I've been thinking about this because I know that you asked this question. And my original Thought was Who are you?

But I've modified that. I think a better question is Who are you becoming? And that's a question that I resisted asking myself for too long and as a result led me down some dark pathways or distracted me from Actualizing in a healthy way.

And I think our culture is set up to distract us from that kind of self inquiry. And the reason that I add the word becoming is I think that It speaks to The

fact that none of us are static. Like in every moment. We are shifting and we are changing. And every decision that we make, every interaction that we have, every word that comes out of our mouth. is either moving us towards a better, more authentic version of ourselves or away from it in the same way that that process is as an alcoholic, either moving me towards a drink or away from a drink.

So I think in the context of becoming, we're always on our on our way to becoming something. Are you becoming A better version of yourself, or are you becoming somebody who is moving away from, you know, what I would characterize as as your true essence. And I think the more that we

can inhabit that sensibility if we're in the habit of like thinking about these things. I think it anchors us More in the present moment and allows for more conscious decisions about how we're investing our energy and how we're conducting ourselves or relating to the world or responding or reacting to

The world around us. I love that. Can you repeat it one more time? It was Not who am I becoming, or is it what type of person am I am I becoming? Who are you becoming. Yeah, who are you becoming. That's a really good modification.

I mean it's sort of leads you to telescope out, right? Looking at whatever the current Decisions and behaviors are. It's like what does this look like in a year? What does this look like in three years? What does this look like in ten years? Good time for me.

Yeah, I'll put that on my Mirror as my wake up reminder. That would be a good one to add. What are you most excited about? For the next year or what are you excited about? It doesn't have to be w the most, but is there anything that comes to mind?

Or looking forward to. And the next year. I mean I'm looking forward to my I'm looking forward to my break for sure. We have another edition of Voicing Change coming out in the new year. So I'm exceed there's practical things that I'm excited about. But I think what I'm

most excited about is This Evolving, shifting relationship. That I have with

the work that I do. And this is something you've talked about. A lot, Tim, which is overcoming or transcending this disposition to like make everything hard. Like you asked this question, like what if it was easy? And that's a very

Bitter pill for me to swallow because My whole life has been premised on this idea that if I haven't suffered to create this thing, that I haven't worked hard enough or that it doesn't Hold value. And I'm in this journey of trying to let go. And I've done that through systems and people here at the podcast, but in other areas of my life too.

hold the things that I care about. More loosely. And to approach them from that perspective of What if it was easy, like I don't have to suffer.

To create that is an illusion or a construct that I have. created in my mind and affirmed over many years, but deconstructing it, I realized the fallacy of it. And so trying to

recalibrate my relationship to The world. in which I am able to navigate it. More from a perspective of like Grace and joy and allowing rather than

gripping on really tightly is so counterintuitive. Yet also So liberating. While also being terrifying. So I haven't emerged from the woods on this yet. Like this is definitely like a

a hill I might die on, but this is what I'm committed to, and this is part of the intention that I'm bringing into this month that I'm taking off and I hope to emerge from that. A little bit more consolidated around that idea. and in a place where I'm ready to practice it in in a in a way that's more meaningful than what I have been able to do historically.

That is a good intention. There is a book. that I've been revisiting my Kindle highlights of which is effortless. By Greg McEwen. Which is the second book.

Following Essentialism also by Greg McEwen, but it's a very Nice reminder. along the lines of of what you're describing. Cause certainly my I shouldn't say default'cause it's probably conditioned, but my sort of out of the box programming is very similar.

to yours. It's like if I if I'm not suffering, if I'm not redlining, then clearly I'm not applying myself enough to whatever X Happens to be. Which is just like so self defeating in so many ways. So it's it's a constant Challenge. However, I ha I have found

that uh to be very helpful book. So I have a tab open actually on this browser right now on top left to my to my Kindle highlights of that book. So speaking of books. Your books include Your best selling memoir, Finding Ultra.

The Cookbooks and lifestyle guides, the Plant Power Way and the Plant Power Way Italia, which you co authored with your wife. Julie.

Yeah. High it. Over two. High it. Good Lord, I'm sorry, Julie. Forgive me. People can find all things Rich Roll at Rich Roll dot com on Twitter at Rich R you most active on Twitter, Instagram

Do you have a preferred social media? I'm probably more active on on Instagram than Twitter, but I'm on both. Yeah. That ritual. on Instagram as well. We'll link to all of those, YouTube, Facebook, et cetera.

In the show notes, tune up blog slash podcast. Is there anything else that you would like to to say? Any closing comments, ask, or requests of This audience. For a wrap up. I mean, first of all, thank you for having me. It ri it really is a privilege. And I've been doing a lot of

Thinking around How divided the world feels right now and how broken it can feel. There's just so much contention out there.

But when I think about kind of what we do, like having these long form conversations, it just feels to me like there's never been a better opportunity to Contribute. in a positive way and You know, I just want to encourage people

to find a way to kind of transcend the predominant media narrative that seems hell bent on pitting us against each other. And to be more conscious about Not just your media choices, but

how you carry that sensibility into the world and the manner in which you interact with other people. Because in my experience, And I'm sure this is shared by most people like when you go out into the world, it doesn't feel like what we're seeing on social media and on the national news. Like people are fundamentally good. And we share so much more.

than what appears to divide us right now. And I don't know, you know, I despair of the way that I hear these narratives being spun online. And so to me, it's almost a reminder to myself to remember That

What you see there isn't necessarily a reflection of The world's objective reality. Here here. So true.

And That is Also At least for me over the last few weeks, that has been one of the best medications is the Abstaining from

these inputs that are very much designed to polarize, right? Very much designed to upset. So that's an incredibly good reminder. And I really appreciate you taking the time, man. I've been looking forward to this. It's landing, this conversation is landing at the perfect time for me. Having just come back from this Time off the grid with

Pages and pages of notes on Big picture. changes or additions or subtractions that of course are great in theory. Fantastic. Well done. Chap. You put it all down on paper, but he gotta translate it somehow. So this I think will be a a nice A nice push for me. You have a very inspiring story.

You also have a very human story. I mean you have Not just the highlights. But you have the lowlights and the difficult times as we all do, and you've been very vulnerable. And forthcoming in

sharing that full picture with the world. And I think it's such a service. Uh it's such a gift. That you do that. So Thank you very much for doing what you do, Rich. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Matt. I appreciate that. And I you know, I think vulnerability is something that we can all

use a little bit more of in this world. And when I hear other people being vulnerable, it gives me permission to be vulnerable. And I think there's real strengthen that. So I appreciate that. And I am happy to be somebody to hold you accountable for this next chapter. I'm excited to see where you know how this is gonna manifest, but uh I would encourage you to just figure out something to latch on to so that you can, you know. So that you can get into action.

And not just ruminate and make more notes. And if you need somebody to, you know Hold your hand to the flame on that. I'm happy to be that guy. Right. So I don't spend the next year deciding which bike to ride. I won't I'll do I will I will do my best so getting something on the calendar. For me if it's not in the calendar It's and if somebody else doesn't know about it, it's it's probably made up. So I will I will I will get something on the calendar and I'm looking forward to it. I'm really looking forward to it. Cause I know I know it can be done, right? It's not it's not the first.

Time out of the gate. Actually putting something together, I'm just out of practice. Right.

Hot damn. Yeah, stakes and consequences, if people prefer the term incentives, great. Uh they really do work wonders. So I'm looking forward to it. And I've really enjoyed this conversation. So thank you very much, Rich. Yeah. To everybody listening, we will have links to everything that we've discussed in the show notes. at tim.blog slash podcast. You can just search Rich Roll and it'll pop right up. You can find him again at Rich Roll dot com

And until next time. Be safe out there, experiment off and Be kinder than you think necessary, and thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading.

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