Need to Know: Elon Musk at Twitter, Bob Iger’s return to Disney, FTX’s bankruptcy, and more, w/Reid & Bob

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Hey everyone, it's Bob Safian coming to you with a new installment of our Need to Know series. In these episodes, Reed Hoffman and I have unfiltered conversations about the most important business topics impacting entrepreneurs right now. We dig into some big themes today, including Bob Iger's return as Disney CEO. Continuing chaos at Twitter. How to keep true to your social responsibility pledges in the face of economic downturns, as well as the long-term outlook for crypto and AI.

Let's get into it. You gotta have incredible talent at every position. It's like this is a huge push. There are fires burning when you're going out. Can you believe it? Such an idiot. And then you go back to, this is totally gonna be amazing. There are so many easy ways. I have no idea what to do. Sorry, we made a mistake. But you have to time it right. We haven't made it. Just how you do it. This

is masters of scale. Hi, Bob. Been a while since we've been able to do one of these need to know episodes and so much Has happened, is happening. But I have to start by saying it was great to see you in person at the inaugural Masters of Scale summit in October at the beautiful Presidio campus, face to face engagement with all the speakers and attendees. It was amazing. Do you have any uh particularly memorable moments or insights from your time at the summit?

Well, a whole range. It was everything from your amazing Panel moderation, which I actually wrote about. because I amended my why panels suck to when panels can be very interesting. And then, you know, we obviously had the usual great Kind of group of people. there, both on the stage and in the audience. And you know, there was a bunch of stuff that I

Wouldn't have expected that worked. That worked really well. I mean, this is one of the reasons why like I approach these things like the Masters of Scale summit, the way I approach a company that I'm on the board of Which is, you know, you have you guys, the team, going, We got this great idea. And I'm like, Well, I don't think that'll work, but if you're so convinced, why don't you give it a try? And one of the things that the team did that was literally I got universal acclaim from all of the various folks attending.

was start with a humanizing moment. then go to talk to each other in the audience, turn left, turn right. say the wait what thing of you would know me better if I literally was impossible to get people to kinda like okay. Calm down, we got this amazing thing about to be on the stage.

Because people were so much engaged with meeting the other people and you know, literally I I had portfolio companies, I had friends in the audience and all of them said That that was one of the unexpected treasures. Upcoming to the summit. Yeah, I mean the feedback that I've gotten really was about how human the dialogue was, you know, for something that people thought, is this gonna be a tech conference?

And it didn't really feel that way, this emphasis on the mental game and on resilience and vulnerability. And one moment the truck movie was hearing Uber CEO Dharakas Rashahi. talk about coming in as a new leader and the advice he got from everyone about how you're supposed to, you know, walk the halls to introduce yourself and how it made him like super uncomfortable, right? And it made me think about, of course, we can all feel uncomfortable in new situations, but Dar also responded by saying He realized he had to do things his own way. That he couldn't play by someone else's playbook. If walking the halls didn't work for him, to trust that and that lesson about the need to be yourself.

And be authentic. Those kinds of personal and more human lessons I feel like really brought the summit alive. Yeah, exactly as that. How do you build

cultures and companies that endure You know, how do you think about the world which we're about to talk about? As you find it with wars and markets and trailing pandemics. How do you blend all this with being a A present human being.

And you know, that was part of the reason why like, for example, the other things of, you know, our sister podcast, not just meditative story, but also spark and fire, you know, kind of like bringing in creativity to the way that you work. And it so far exceeded I think everyone's expectations, which were high. It was amazing. Well I I should also acknowledge to read the incredible range of people that you talk to on the stage from the CEO of TikTok. To Dylan Field, the founder and CEO of Figma, to director Ron Howard, who was just delightful, and then Bill Gates. You were carrying a lot of water there. It must have been kind of dizzying to move between all those different people and topics.

Dizzying but fun. When you have amazing people to talk to, sometimes that dizziness is part of the vertigo of elevation. One of the folks I got to sit down with at the summit was Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky, who's been on Masters of Scale several times. Brian and I talked about his background as a designer, and it reminded me of a recent conversation that I had with PepsiCo's chief design officer, Moral Porcini, for rapid response. Here's Moro, who, as you'll hear, has a delightful Italian accent, talking about why design is such an essential competitive tool for perpetual disruption at scale. You need to build in house the culture of innovation. You need people in love with people, as I like to define them. People that are obsessed with extreme. quality, with excellence, with creatingful solutions for the people out there. Designers are training this, but this is not just a design and designers kind of issue and opportunity.

The entire company need to have that kind of culture. Designer can help eventually ignite the culture, but the culture needs to be spread across every single function of the company. Let's dig into the current moment. There's a lot to unpack in just the last few weeks we've seen. Interest rates rise, concerns persist about inflation and growth. We've seen A wave of layoffs announced, particularly by tech firms Intel, Meta, Amazon, Stripe.

Media firms. Announcing layoffs. One of the hardest things a leader faces Is there a right way, a wrong way to announce layoffs? Is it gonna be uncomfortable no matter what you do? Well, there's definitely wrong ways.

And You know, I've said multiple times that Elon is one of the most celebrated entrepreneurs of our generation and he's done things that are amazing that I don't know anyone else who could have done them on the Nelon. But of course the way he's done the Twitter layoffs is just bad on lots of fronts, like doing it inhumanly.

Before the holidays kind of a little bit like a swerving down the road, like oops, we didn't mean to lay you off, you know, et cetera. Like just all kinds of things that had publicly played out. So we don't need to comment a lot more. But Those are The poster child of how Not.

Yeah. And yet I think other folks like Patrick Collison, I think did it masterfully. Patrick Collinson, the CEO of Stripe. communicating a lot, why it is we're doing it. We're trying to help the folks who we're laying off not only with a human and generous severance package, but also finding other work and kind of posting for it and being rational to the audience. In the broad world saying, look, we didn't lay off people that we, you know, we're we're very conscious about how we hire and we're very conscious about performance management. So the people we lay off, we regret.

We think they're really good. You know, obviously he learned a lot from our very first Masters of scale guest Brian Cheske. who, you know, kinda did that during the pandemic. Which of course I was appreciative of as the my second book, The Alliance. which is your relationship with your employees should be a lifetime relationship.

even though it may not be lifetime at this company. And that's part of being human about how you do the layoffs the right way. Now the last Opening remark. on layoffs that I think is kind of interesting is that everybody seems to be doing somewhere around twelve to thirteen percent.

I think it's when you kind of get to the kind of ten plus years of ball markets. in this and people go, Okay, we need to refactor Do fewer things better and defer some kind of longer term investments because we're kind of rationalizing with the capital now that the markets are

Tighter. That ends up being a more Focused on efficiency. And kind of discipline. Fewer things better.

Approach. So when cycles turn You wanna be more lean. But you don't wanna cut into bone and so you end up in this twelve to thirteen percent like we just sort of our eyes were a little bigger than our stomachs. Yeah. In the good times.

Yeah. It's actually not making a mistake when you say, Well, there's a lot of capital flowing. It's only a mistake if you knew that the market was gonna correct. The fact that you move from a higher growth to a more moderate growth and focus perspective is not necessarily that the earlier judgment was a mistake. Yeah, and and not to butcher your blitz scaling philosophy, but like take the advantage that's there when it's there. And you deal with the repercussions when you have to. Yes, exactly. And the key thing is to adjust quickly.

Right. Again with blitz scaling, it's the ah capital markets change, they've changed for an uncertain number of months. Could be a long number of months. How do we readjust? How do we readjust now? What are the things we do in order to do that? So you mentioned Elon Musk and Twitter, and I have to double click on that and go a little deeper. The last time we talked, Musk was threatening to pull out of even buying Twitter, right? Litigation. That's like ancient history now. He's in charge. He owns the platform. He's remaking things at

What Might be a blitz scale pace. Right? But it's not clear if he's moving too fast, too recklessly. Certainly as you refer to like the edict that only hardcore employees should stay around was bracing for folks. What do you make of all of this?

How He's doing this. What the implications are. Well as I You know, have said a few times

Elon is an amazing entrepreneur. we wouldn't have gotten a revolution of the space industry and now of satellites without his going through tens of feet of concrete wall head first. uh we wouldn't gotten the electric vehicle revolution. without him also doing that and putting it all online and taking risks. So that's the kind of entrepreneur he is. And so the way he's approaching Twitter is also like,

Putting it all online right now. You know, it's a five alarm fire right now in order to change it. And that's the way he has done amazing entrepreneurial work. Now That being said, I would have done Twitter a lot differently. I think that playing roulette with the fundamental advertising A revenue structure with uncertainties about what's happening with content moderation. And so just kind of chaos fill.

And all the stuff. I think in social products, in community products, in network products, you need to approach it differently with an eye towards humanity. What is the aspirations of compassion, wisdom, uh, all these other things which are very good, you know, kind of the opposite of inhumane. Think about the parallels of how towns grow into cities. As populations get larger, you never go, Oh, now we only need a smaller police force. Right.

Because The nature of humanity is as you get to these kind of dense human things. You get all kinds of crazy behavior from some humans. That's why we create a society with laws and collective forms of governance to have a clean, well lit place like

You know, the village square to treasure exactly as Elon says. But you need the principles. for it to run in healthy ways. And that's what you have to approach as kind of what is the human nature of these problems. And you know, Elon is a super fast learning machine. I suspect he will get there through his fast iterations, but that's I think the different nature of this problem.

Yeah, I mean uh going to space or creating a new kind of vehicle Super complicated. But the media and sort of social platform is complicated in different ways. And it's not yet clear that he's fully got his arms around the nuances and the sophistication that's required when the implications Of what

that platform can be and can do. Are so broad s societely. Yeah, and I think it's clear that he hasn't Yet. But having decades of personal experience, I know he's one of the people that we refer to as infinite learners.

You know, I have hope. that the learning curve would be Fast. here on these vectors. Entrepreneurs may be asking

how they should respond to what's happening on Twitter, like Do they keep using the platform to grow their business? Do they change how they're using it? Is there a way that business leaders should think of Twitter And how to use it differently right now? I mean a lot of advertisers are pausing. Well, I think it's rational for the advertisers to pause because part of on the advertising side is to say what we care about is a certain brand association.

And very few advertisers. want to be associated with chaos or human conflict or other kinds of things. For entrepreneur leaders, et cetera. I I would say There isn't a moral principle of packing up ship.

And leaving. I think it's kind of a question of Participating And continuing to be the how you would want to see humanity and other kinds of things expressed here.

I do think that Twitter is a world and US public good. for a public square, and I think it's important for us to participate in it. So, you know, I myself am continuing to do it. We at Masters of Scale are continuing to do it. We're not participating in any trash talk or that part of the dumpster fire. We're trying to be our normal selves and like, for example, even being truth tellers, like here saying, look, it's important to be human. First.

Just like the episodes. And so be human on Twitter. Be compassionate for the Twitter employees whose lives have been unsettled and articulate the truth that it was not done the right way. And to do that and to participate that way is I think far more important than anything else. And that's how you exemplify leadership. in the modern Networked world. There are very different leadership styles in the marketplace. Musk, a particular version.

I spoke with C N B C's Julia Borsen for rapid response about the skills strategies That she sees is most important right now for leaders. Her conclusions are drawn from research for her new book, When Women Lead. Here's Julia. In order to succeed in this incredibly uncertain environment, The skills and strategies that women have always deployed are more valuable than ever for everyone.

We're gonna start to see more men adopt these traditionally more female leadership styles, and I think everyone will be the better for it. Women tend to rank much, much higher on empathy tests. You wanna retain your employee base, you wanna motivate your team, you can't not be empathetic. Never mind being empathetic to your customers, your investors, you name it, in uncertain times like these, empathy is essential. Another key one. Vulnerability women are a lot more comfortable demonstrating vulnerability to their teams. And vulnerability is a key way to invite collaboration.

There's a lot of research showing that women enjoy practicing gratitude, whereas men it makes them a little bit more uncomfortable. But gratitude correlates with being less focused on the near term fix and more focused on the long-term gain. These are all things that though women are more likely to do men should be doing. When you build substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position. The upside is real, but so is the risk, and knowing when to act isn't always obvious.

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Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi.

And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topic are just as compelling and timely. From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find. Just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode.

I hope to see you there. Before the break, Reed and I talked about dealing with layoffs, differing leadership styles, and what Reed calls the chaos bill of Elon Musk's early days at Twitter. Now we dig into how the implications of Bob Iger's return as Disney CEO, the cryptocurrency crisis in FTX's bankruptcy, and where Reed sees larger challenges and opportunities in today's business climate. So another media company in the news lately, Disney. Bob Iger coming back as CEO, taking over from Bob Chapik.

We both know several folks on the Disney board. Did it surprise you that he Is back. Well, it didn't surprise me from the viewpoint of among the reasons why we've had Bob, you know, on Masters of Scale. He is one of the amazing COs.

Of the last. Yeah. Frankly, if you're bored, you'd want as much Bob as you can get. So that part of it didn't surprise me. The part that did surprise me was

It seemed to be a very abrupt. Change. No, I think it's a smart thing to do, given that I think part of what Bob Iger understood well and talked some about with us.

Із алота в Дізні із баба канав талант. within the media side. is about kind of making the appropriate long range investments in like streaming. And other sorts of things and I think that

You know, wasn't clear that Chick was doing that. And I think that's a good thing. I have no inside knowledge. to this, but that might have informed. Some of these

Changes but I think that What is overlooked in the overall discussion is Okay, I think if I was on the Disney board of directors As many years of Bob Iger as the CO, I'll take'em.

Yeah, I mean I was looking back at comments that Bob Iger made A year ago when he officially stepped down from even being chairman away from the board. And he talked about how he realized he was being too dismissive of other people's opinions. And in hindsight, that sort of looks like, oh, maybe he didn't necessarily agree with where the current CEO is taking the company. And so it was time for him to step aside and Maybe now it's then opportunity for him to reassert what those opinions are.

'Cause it it always seemed strange to me'cause he was not a leader who didn't listen. And actually one of the things that I think is kind of important subtle thing here is, you know, there was a report in the press, who knows if we're true or not. that Chape was feeling

constrained by having Iround One of the subtle things that I think about having infinite learners as COs is I would want to argue talking about like okay, look, how did you solve this? How would you think about it? Great. That's an input.

to how I'm making my decision and yes, I'm gonna make my own decision. But I would want the input if whatever was reported in the press was correct of I want you out of the room. Or I you know, I feel overshadowed by you. That would be a subtle but important negative tell. Yeah, it's always a challenge if ego gets in the way of learning, and learning is what the goal is for all of us, right? Even if there's conflict involved in that learning.

Exactly. So We talked. In uh previous need to know session about the crypto winter.

That descended earlier this year, reset invaluations and slowed momentum for web three promises. But we've had a new development. With the bankruptcy of FTX, which had been seen as Sort of a stalwart, a kind of a trusted player. What does this mean for where we are with right now in crypto? What does this mean for what the future of crypto is?

Is it just isolated? Well, it's definitely not isolated. There's a couple of things. First there's baseline stuff. I wasn't really aware that A whole bunch of people had done growth investments in FTX when it didn't really have a board. Not every investor has to go on the board, but you know, part of when you're

doing kind of scale investments or loaning your brand to an entity that is scaling, you want to have a good theory of governance, you know, might fail, but you're doing it and You know, people say, Well, you know, crypto needs to be regulated. Well, we do have this kind of regulation for companies, it's called a board of directors. Uh with a couple of independents. Let's start there.

Like that would be a good idea. And you know, I frankly don't know what the With investing without having a board of directors there, because not only is it a responsible use of capital. But also investing in the institutions which affect our societies.

scale companies, but also financial systems and everything else. And so I think there's a lot of ways to improve Beyond A well constituted board of directors. But that's really kinda like table stakes. When you get to these things.

You know, and there's a bunch of stuff that's been in the press about self dealing and accounting chiconery and uses of customer deposits against What was explicitly stated. All of that stuff is super important things, but you start with a Board of directors. Now I do think

That in various ways Figuring out how to Get a good regulatory framework for crypto is important. Well, we at Graylock have made a number of different investments in this arena.

You know, people say, Well, why do you want crypto? And the answer is if you say there's two hundred countries in the world uh ish, you know, round, and then you start counting from the worst to the best in A combination of governance and financial systems and financial system governance It's well over

A hundred or a hundred and fifty. to which you begin getting into countries where you go, Well, maybe they don't need crypto. Right. Maybe the crypto thing is optional for them. And so actually in fact having a internet based system of identity, system of value, system of contract.

system of exchange. could be very good. For elevating the rest of the world and so Therefore, that's a future world that we should kind of move towards.

Obviously things like FTX or token speculation or The use of crypto for criminal activity, ransomware, other things. is all a serious problem that needs to be dealt with. But I think overall crypto good. Now this being said

This will have all kinds of contagion because people will Go well. You were just telling me Two months ago. how FTX was genius in the future and everything else and was the leading exemplar.

Of why crypto is good. And this is much worse than the Emperor has no clothes. This is the Emperor. has no clothes and was running around doing a bunch of very questionable things that People are investigating to see what its degree of legality. was.

Yeah, the h the emperor had no clothes and was running around stealing yours. I mean, you have been an enthusiast about crypto from early days. Is it frustrating that a scandal like this? You know, emerges which as you talk about almost seems like Simple than it should have been.

Cut short earlier. And yet it tarnishes something else that you believe in very strongly. Well, it's definitely frustrating. it's obviously gonna be really difficult for a whole bunch of the crypto entrepreneurs who do have boards of directors and are

trying to build systems for decades long terms and aren't doing financial trades on empty tokens and so forth and They're now gonna have to work through all of that as part of how they're operating. And generally speaking, there'll be a lot more people going, see, I just thought all this crypto stuff, this is just all

Crud. And you have to work through that too. But on the other hand, this is part of why entrepreneurship is hard. You know, by default. the entrepreneurs and building new things is part of how we get all kinds of benefits. Society, jobs, wealth, prosperity, new products and services that we love, new products and services that support health, education, other kinds of things. So that's part of the reason why At master scale, we're like

The humanity and the celebration of the scale entrepreneurship journey. With economic and financial pressures on businesses rising. There's an increased risk of backsliding on corporate sustainability and social responsibility pledges. It's what made the latest rapid response appearance by Rashad Robinson so timely. Rashad is the president of Color of Change. А сил адвокаси груп, а на largest online racial justice organization in the US.

I asked him his assessment of how business has lived up to social responsibility, diversity, and anti-racism commitments. Here's what he told me. Of course we're seeing backslide to commitments, we're seeing companies try to wiggle out of things that they said and things that they committed to, but that's all part of any sort of work towards progress. Lot of people want to believe that racial inequity is unfortunate, almost like a car accident. It like just happened. So if we do a couple of things differently that we can avoid the car accident.

But racial injustice, racial inequality is not unfortunate like a car accident. It is manufactured. It is manufactured through a set of choices. When we're actually trying to deal with harm that exists in the world, we have to recognize that we're not looking for charitable solutions to problems that are structural. We're asking for structural change. Our work. Із тубил а строго. broader multi racial coalition of people who actually will demand better from these companies and demand these companies actually meet the standards they've committed to.

This question about how we build the future in More challenging economic times. Sometimes we We don't step on the gas quite the same way towards doing it. And sometimes there's a risk of even backsliding on things like sustainability

On social responsibility pledges, diversity. How important is it to sustain Those pledges in difficult times and how hard is it? When you feel like you're being squeezed in terms of your resources. Well, it's definitely hard. And it's hard also because

You know, to some degree. Companies are the most efficient adaptation mechanism that we've yet discovered. to a set of stakeholders where the stakeholders includes Customers uh employees.

Shareholders. And To some degree, if those Three groups say Hey.

No sustainability goals. then very hard for a company to stay on it. So what's important is that all three groups and of course other stakeholders like society are say, hey, this continues to be important to us. And then what you do as a company is you say, Okay, well, we're trying to be the efficient allocator of capital across these goals. So My

Hope. for a number of leaders is that you don't go up Difficult times. You just park that. You go, Okay, well Just like everything else, we have to be more focused.

About how we're investing in it. But we continue to invest in it. It isn't that it goes off the list. It's that it goes, okay, so Maybe we thought we had a thousand dollars. to invest in this and maybe we only have

Four hundred. Now Or three hundred. Okay, how do we allocate those three hundred dollars? Really

Efficiently and what do we do? In order to do it. Well, I sometimes when you're in these tighter moments You do prioritize and say actually That deserves a bigger proportion.

of my investment. Even if The dollars may not be the same, right? You may say that listen, in the future, we need to be sustainable. We need to be more diverse. It presents an opportunity for you to make those. a larger priority in the business that you're again building for the future. Yes, exactly. And I think that's the way of thinking about like the future's still there, the future's still coming, you still have to invest in it, just like you have to do in every other business. Now the one

You know kind of asterisk just to make sure it's that is. Part of when you get to these difficult problems in business, the very first thing you do is you think about how do you continue to survive in order to thrive. So you first do all the double check on the baseline game. And you know, that might put some real pressure. On your

Sustainability goals. the thing it can't put pressure on is the fact that you're still committed to it. That's still in mind, that you're still planning to it for the future. Even if you go, Well no, we're really battening down the hatches to make sure that we get through the next couple of years that when capital flows and we can continue to invest that we are here in order to do that. You know, you could still have it

clearly in your mind. Uh as you're doing that. Yeah. Business downturn, some businesses discover great opportunity. The leaders of the next cycle are often born amid The carnage.

Do you have any sense? yet about where those opportunities might be most ripe. In this cycle. Are there places that You're looking.

Indeed, as you say It is. Actually in fact. best to start a company During an economic downturn.

Because the most Highly variable is fewer startup competitors. for the opportunities that you see. And so it's harder to raise capital, harder to assemble the talent, et cetera, because the talent tends to want to go to places that stable.

And by the way, I think there's still a lot of investment in the tech industry. So I think one of the things that You know, as people leave various companies or get laid off. I think there's a lot of different tech investments that are being made. What do we do in order to kind of build that future, I think. is in fact I think still there, and so I think you play for that.

I don't mean to undercut how difficult some of these times are gonna be. So I think as per your question, it's good to start businesses. Now. The way that I do it is I generally I'm not like, oh my God. Right now, like for example, the start of the pandemic, oh, I'll go invest in businesses that are gonna deal with the pandemic right now. I tend to invest in businesses that have decades long impact in transformation industry. So what I've been doing. For years has been artificial intelligence, large language models.

Generative models, et cetera. You know, I co-founded a company earlier this year with Mustafa Sullivan called Inflection. Graylock has been doing this investment in adept. And Cresta and Snorkel. you know, we continue to make investments in the crypto space. Because it's like, Well what's gonna be true ten years from now? And you know, my

Thesis on this has been Like everyone likes to talk about this is a little bit like tech lash, like AI replacing human work. I tend to think of it as actually much more broadly amplifying. It's kind of the essay that I did in Dali earlier, whether or not you're No graphic skill, low graphic skill, medium graphic skill, high graphic skill, it will be amplifying to you across it. It'll now be a new essential tool. You say, Hey, we've got amplifiers for doctors. Great.

We'd love to have a lot more personalized medicine. Human beings do like to talk to human beings for how to interpret and how to work on it. And now as opposed to the way that industrialized medicine works, which is you get 10 minutes with your doctor and then you got to be out the door, it's like, well, actually in fact, if we have amplifiers, maybe that moves to 30. And that would be a good thing for society. Plus, obviously you can provide medical stuff in a whole bunch of countries where people need injury or Illness detectors off cell phone cameras. Then all of a sudden, in the eight billion people around the world, most of them can't afford doctors. Well, we can provide something, which is useful. And I think that we just have to keep building to that future with

the right kind of focus and thoughtfulness and speed. Just mentioned blitz scaling in order to realize the benefits. So I think that's the lens by which you can see AI generating positive result across I think all professions and

Therefore all industries. Well Reed, as always It is an education talking to you and fun too. So um Thanks for Doing this and uh look forward to doing it again soon.

Bob, likewise, let's do this again soon and uh happy holidays. Masters of Scale is a Wait What original. Our executive producers are June Cohen, Darren Triff, and Jordan McLeod. Our head of content and production is Lori Hoffman. Our producers are Adam Skew's Catherine Clark Bray.

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