Merge Records: Laura Ballance and Mac McCaughan

Hey, really quick before we start the show, a lot of you have lots of questions about how I built this. Like How do you pick guests, or where do you record the show, or how can I get in touch with Howard Schultz? Spoiler alert on that one, we can't help you, but we can try and answer any questions you might have about the show, our work, or even me. If you'd like to submit a question, please visit gyros dot com and fill out the form, and we'll answer some of your questions right here on the show in the coming weeks. Again, that's G U Y R A Z. dot com. One of my roommates.

Her dad worked for Budweiser. And They had made these bass guitars. That were Budweiser themed. Yes, it did. It was like you know, it looked like a can of Budweiser. Um I have no memory of that. That's hilarious. And then somehow it turned into Mac teaching me how to play bass. And I think that was all a ploy.'Cause I did have a boyfriend at the time.

He wasn't teaching you how to play bass, apparently. And PR? It's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. They built. Guy Raz, and on the show today, how two indie rockers launched a record label named it after a roadside.

And grew merge into one of the most influential names Independent music. Building a successful business basically means being able to make smart bets, right? Especially if you're in the business of venture capital. The business is basically betting. You invest millions of dollars in a lot of promising startups, knowing that most of them will falter or fail outright. But you're betting that every now and then you will invest in a winner, a business that maybe five or ten years down the road will have a liquidity event, which is a polite way of saying that a few people are going to make lots of money.

Yeah. Anyway, one of the things that struck me when I was doing research for today's show is that an indie record label, or any record label really, is sort of like a VC fund. Just like a VC fund? The label takes a chance on a lot of maybe. with the hope of eventually hitting a winner. In this case, a band that will sell hundreds of thousands of albums and make a ton of money for themselves and of course for the label.

But unlike many VC funds, most indie record labels don't start with lots of cash to invest. They are almost by definition small and scrappy. With an artistic vision that At least in the beginning. may be more important than making a lot of money. And this basically

is where Laura Balance and Mac McConn began when they started the indie label Merge in nineteen eighty nine. Laura and Mac were musicians themselves. They were part of the band Super Chunk. And in fact, playing and touring and being immersed in the indie scene in the late nineteen eighties was one of the things that inspired them to start their own label. In the early years, income from Superchunk basically helped Laura and Mac keep Merge from going bankrupt, and that income allowed them to make a lot of small bets on lesser-known indie artists. Until eventually, in the early 2000s? One of their bets paid off.

with the massively successful band Arcade Fire. But the story of Merge is also the story of the rise of indie rock in the 1990s. The label became hugely influential and helped to introduce bands like Spoon, Neutral Milk Hotel, The Magnetic Fields, and many others to music fans around the world. And all of this happened because of the creativity and also the tension between Laura and Mac. who are professional partners today, but at one point

We're also romantic partners. The two of them met in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, when they were both college students. And before that Laura spent her high school years in Raleigh and Atlanta. It was the early 1980s, and she was already following the punk music scene.

and going to lots of clubs. We Started going to shows at the Metroplex. Which was a a punk rock club that We were able to go to

As underage kids. I think most of us if we saw our kids going to that place now we would be really scared. Yeah it it was in this wareho like abandoned warehouse part of town, you know? Yeah. It was it was pretty uh dodgy. What do you remember about The music that

attracted you to it. You know, from everything I've read about you, you're a self described introvert. You're quiet, you're shy. you get anxious being in front of people and then there's this really intense and often loud Angry explosive music.

That you were listening to. Can you connect the dots for for me? On that. Um I guess

Because of my personality and because of things that had happened in my youth I felt Different? I felt like an outsider. Hm.

And Being introduced to the Punk rock community, I felt like I had found all the other not normal people, you know? Like I had found A place to be where it was okay to not be normal.

Yeah. And The music was an expression of that too. You sort of you describe yourself as like an outsider and

Like you know, the the kind of kids who would be call freaks or you know, right, or or weirdos. Today, it's funny t it's hard to find a teenager without blue hair or right or or or who who looks like. what would be described as different in the in the seventies and eighties. Were you that kind of kid? Like were you h did you dress differently than other kids and did you wear your hair differently? Than other kids. Yes. What did you look like?

Well At one point I had like calico hair. Mm-hmm. I sort of settled into having black hair and teasing it up and crimping it and Back then also, like It was harder to

Like whatever you want it to look like, you had to assemble it yourself. You had to make it happen. Yeah. You couldn't just go to Hot Topic and buy it. People put safety pins in their clothing. Yeah. Or like for some reason I would even like Put egg whites in my hair to make it more like stiff. Yeah. And As opposed to going and buying some Aqua Net. And would you if somebody saw you when you were sixteen?

Or seventeen, would they say, Oh, there's Laura, she's a goth? Yes. That's what they would say. Yeah. I remember

When I went to High school. Especially at first. Walking down the hall. And there would be these girls who would

You know, to make fun of me. They would Act like they were scared and jump out of the way and against the lockers. Like they had to get out of my way'cause I was a monster walking down the hall. Um and I would just kind of You know, pretend that I didn't notice because I didn't know what else to do.

Yeah. Alright, I wanna turn to you, Mac. As a kid w do you did you get into music pretty early or did it happen Later when you were a teenager. I was into it.

Pretty early just in the sense that My dad was really into Listening to music and Had record player and records.

Yeah, when you would get into my My dad's car, much to my mom's chagrin. the radio would be set to like blasting so when you start started the car I remember the you know the radio would be on really loud and um And you know, at that time. the radio.

Th. We were listening to was I guess what you would now call classic rock. At the time it was just rock. Yeah. But yeah, so I knew that my dad was Even though from looking at him you wouldn't necessarily know it. He was

really into rock and roll and you say that looking at him you wouldn't know it'cause he was a lawyer, right? Right, so he just looked I mean he didn't he didn't look rock and roll, I guess you would say. But yeah, so Exile on Main Street was a record that Oh yeah uh we listened to a lot. Wow. My dad was a a big Led Zeppelin fan as well. Yeah. One time I asked him why he didn't have any Beatles records.

And he said they weren't heavy enough. But yeah, I was really into the Who, but also like A C D C was probably my favorite band, I guess I would say at that time. Um What do you remember? your kind of taste in music veering more towards the

The kind of things that That Laura was listening to like Hardcore and and punk. D did that happen. When you were a teenager.

I think I was probably more like So Laura was in high school in Raleigh, I was in Durham. And I met people at school. who were both into

The Who and you know, Led Zeppelin and A C D C, but they were also listened to the college radio stations. And so Finding out about that is what kind of exposed me to other kinds of music. I read um

A story about how I guess when you were in your Like in early teens you went to like see a couple of hardcore bands playing at a coffee house and that was sort of a moment where It blew your mind'cause it was live music and it was loud music. That's

Kind of got you thinking about maybe f starting your own band. Is that Is it right? Is that true? Yeah, I saw a flyer for a show at the Duke Coffee House. Which is an all ages place on campus at Duke.

And The flour is for A band called the Ugly Americans. And also a band called The Band with No Name. And

The band with no name was super weird. I don't even know if you would call it punk really. I think it was just more like odd. Yeah. Thrashing, just shouting like DIYs. I've I feel like it was noise and maybe like a Casio or a drum machine or something. I don't know. It was strange. And then the Ugly Americans played and that was kind of more what I knew to be like punk.

But uh yeah, so that was at the do coffee house and punk shows were were usually all ages, unlike shows that the clubs where you would hear a song on the radio by a band, like on College Radio, and you'd be like, Oh, this band, you know, the the Rain Parade, they're they're playing at the cat's cradle And you'd be really into it and then realize like you couldn't go to that show because it was drinking age only. Yeah. Yeah. Um Alright, so you

So you're getting into the the live music scene and and I guess around this time you're also starting to play guitar. Right. And so by the time you graduate high school, you You're playing in a few bands and you and and this guy named Jonathan Newman, um, I guess you start a band together called the Slush Puppies.

Mm-hmm. And and and is it fair to describe like the bands that you were playing in were they How would you describe the sound, the new um sort of like new wave, you describe like a new wave cover band? I would say like new wave and then slush puppies were like a little more punk. Got it. But also, you know, there was this

At the time you would have a lot of bands fell under the broad umbrella of like college rock or something, you know? Right. Right. And so like our guitars were distorted and everything, but we weren't playing a million miles an hour. It was more punk along the lines of like the Buzzcocks or something like that.

Yeah. I mean you must have been a pr pr pretty good student in high school. You went to Columbia. for college. In New York. Yeah. I mean I did f I did fine in some classes and not great in other classes and

Really going to New York City was the thing that I was the most excited about. I mean being in New York between nineteen eighty five and nineteen ninety was like a really good time to be in New York. Both for like New York music as well as the fact that

was living in a place where every band played. No matter where they were from. I g I guess after a year in at Columbia you decide to take a year off and go come back to North Carolina And you move to Chapel Hill. Did you Was was there a reason why you did that?

I ended up taking you off. After two years at Columbia. It was originally because as much as I loved New York, I also missed being in North Carolina and being able to play music because playing music was what was difficult about being in New York. Yeah, you can't just

Have a band playing in your dorm room or your apartment. Like you can. And in Chapel Hill or whatever and I did.

Have a couple. times of like taking my amp and my guitar on the subway downtown to a practice space and it's just like that was a that was a drag. So then I had a year off, which was awesome because It was you know. Living in North Carolina.

Play music. Working at Kinko's and Pizza place and record store and just doing different things.

Yeah. And I guess that was uh that's how you and Laura met, right? Because she was going to college at Chapel Hill and and Both of you are working at the pizza place? Yeah.

Pepper's Pizza. And you were at A UNC, Laura, right? And And Mac was a This guy that you met there and and and

I mean Did he make an impression on you from the beginning? W what do you remember? Did you y what's what's your recollection of of when you first met him? So There's the thing where The Raleigh scene and the Chapel Hill scene.

We're kind of They were separate. And There was some sort of rivalry which I picked up on the

The Kids in Raleigh w seem like more serious and More into the the kind of like more menacing side of punk rock or something. And the Chapel Hill kids seem to be more goofy.

Like Raleigh was more hardcore to me and Chapel Hill was more like poppy punk. And I met Mac. Jonathan Newman.

and Gray Brooks, I guess around the same time, and to me they were this sort of unit. But I was in a band with Jonathan and Gray was my friend that we had also gone to high school with us. Yeah. Right. They you know, were always cracking jokes and being silly and My impression was that Was that Mac was one of these three funny guys?

Got it. I mean We say we met at Pepper's but but we were both going to the same like concerts and shows at clubs and stuff like that. And Laura made an impression because she was so Goth. Like when you say so goth like goth like an Edward Gorey character, like Like

Not that goth. You know, black hair. Make up. Chain. All the accoutrement.

Right. It wasn't worth all the time. Got it. Got it. Um and and did you guys become friends right away? No, not necessarily. I feel like, you know, we got to be friends when we were working at Peppers together at the same time. Right. Yeah. It's like trial by fire. You know, it brings you closer together. Working at a pe a place like Pepper. Yeah. Um Meantime, Mac, from from what I understand, like during that year when you came back to Chapel Hill

in the middle of your time in college. You and Jonathan. got back to kinda recording music for the slush puppies or really kinda took it seriously.

And you actually got a gig opening for Fugazi, which anyone who's who knows anything about like hardcore punk, American punk, knows that band, knows Ian McKay. Classic DC. Hardcore band.

He was a big deal. You got and you guys got to open for him at that at the cat's cradle. That's kind of a legendary club, right? In In Chapel Hill, right? Cal Cat's Cradle. It is, and it's it's been in a few different locations, but the Cat's Cradle's been around for over fifty years now in different in different locations. And Yeah, I mean the the the most exciting thing about being in a band like

Slash Puppies was who you got to open for, you know. There's a lot of local bands and everyone's trying to get to open for the cool bands who came through on tour, you know, whether that was Fugazi or the Volcano Suns or who who who's Sonic Youth, whoever it's gonna be. So this was their gonna be their third show ever, so I I mean I was excited about being able to set that show up at the Cat's Cradle and being able to open that show. Of course it was very exciting. So yeah, that was a big deal. playing with them. And I guess uh around this time, Mac, you were

you were playing a bunch of different bands and and there was one project that that you started which actually kind of plant the seeds from for merge records, I guess, where Well what, you thought, hey, let's let's put out a record with a bunch of other bands, like a limited number of records and and just sell them ourselves? Wha what how did that come about? What is uh what's the story? So

The band Slash Puppies we talked about, and another band I was in called Wax with two Ws and uh three other local bands, we put out a box set of seven inch singles. And This was something that was kind of masterminded by the bass player in Wax Way Taylor. He talked about it like Oh yeah, like I know how this I know how we do this. Like we get this the place that we get records pressed.

A local Printing make the s sleeves for us or make some booklets to go in the boxes and Our friends who own a silk screening company, Tannis Root, Bill and Barber, they can silk screen the front of this box set that's gonna be this compilation of all these singles.

That was kind of the idea, like a snapshot of the scene, the local North Carolina music scene at that Time. Mm.

And and the way that that it came about was really a community effort too. All those all those different businesses that Mac just mentioned, you know, they were part of the community and and I think all the bands pitched in in various ways too. In labor and cash to have the records pressed. It was just

doable. I mean I think it was mysterious to me before then how that how that how that all happened, but um But that's kind of how we Learned, you know. Right. And some w some time.

At some point, I I guess in sort of nineteen eighty eight, the two of you start dating. But what do you remember h how did it happen? I mean you you guys had worked at the pizza place together and presumably became friends and Then became boyfriend, girlfriend.

And we started playing music around that time too, I think. Think. I think it started with One of my roommates. Her dad worked for Budweiser.

And They had made these bass guitars That were Budweiser themed. And she had gotten one. And didn't know how to play it. She had never played an instrument. It said Budweiser on the bass. Yes, it did. It was like you know, it looked like a can of Budweiser. Um I have no memory of that. That's hilarious. And she wanted Mac to come over and teach her how to play bass.

And he was like Oh yeah, okay, yeah, we need a bass player, maybe you know, you can c I'll come over and and you know, teach you how to play bass. And then somehow it turned into him teaching me how to play bass. And I think that was all a ploy'cause I did have a boyfriend at the time. But My boyfriend was in Raleigh. He wa he wasn't teaching you how to play bass, apparently. Yeah.

Laura how to play bass and that's'cause you you didn't play any instruments before that, right, Laura? No. Mm mm. It was kind of cause so we could have a ban with Jonathan. You wanted but you wanted you thought would be great in a band and so you were like I'll teach you bass. Yeah, Jonathan had drums, I played guitar, and we needed a bass player. Right.

But I think that was just a way for us to start dating really,'cause we could we would hang out more because we were Playing in a band together. And it sort of evolved that way. Mac, you then okay, so you go back to finish out your time at Columbia.

How did y how did you and Laura I mean, were you Laura, were you going up to visit Mac, were you coming and get back down to Chapel Hill all the time, like Because What would become a six year Relationship, right?

Yeah, I mean, I came home on vacation and New York Was a pretty common trip for Anyone from North Carolina to make in terms of going to see bands up there or whatever, like it didn't feel like that big of a deal, so There's a lot of travel back and forth.

You're Going back. uh to college and play in a bunch of bands and and you and Laura are dating and from what I understand at some point Uh, maybe it was like uh like w what between your junior and and senior year

uh in college, so I guess this would be like the summer of nineteen eighty nine. Yeah. Chunk. Uh with Laura. Is is that how you remember it? Yeah, that seems like

That sounds right. It uh was That summer. Chunk. was the band that we started that summer with Chuck Garrison and Jack McCook. And and um

This is after the drummer in the band, right? Who's who actually his name was Chuck. But He somehow inspired the name. chunk for the band. Apparently he was listed in the phone book as Chunk Garrison. Right.

Yeah, they had it was a misprint. It was a misprint, so that's that's that name. Where that name came from. Right. So He inspires the name.

chunk. And here's my question for you back. Every time you formed a new band, in your mind Was it like this is gonna be the band that's gonna make it, or was it just like this is fun, let's just do a band? It was much more the latter. I don't think I ever had the idea like trying to qu quote unquote make it right in the m music business or whatever. You know what I mean? It was just more like, hey, like we all live within five blocks of each other, what why we might as well have a band.

And so What did you think you were gonna do when you graduated from college? I honestly just didn't know. I mean, I think that I probably thought I was gonna like Work in a record store or something like that. I didn't have a grand.

Plan. Um you s you were the main you were the lead singer. And g lead guitarist, right? And Laura you were Bass guitarist. Yes. How would you describe

The sound of What was then called chunk. Before it would become super chunk, but how would you describe the sound? I would say Punky.

Mm. But Poppy also, like people at the time compared us to the Buzzcocks. But it was also sort of College Rock at the same time. We did a Shangri. Cover on the B side. So there's definitely pop.

Right. Alright, so you guys formed this band, and that summer You took a road trip. to Seattle. Mm-hmm. And in Seattle, from what I understand, you guys actually went to to the sub pop offices

To me. Pues. Bruce Pavitt and Jonathan Poneman, who who've been on the show before, did you guys go there For any specific reason, thinking maybe you could sign your band. to their label, like what why did you go visit SubHop?

Well, uh one of my friends from school, Aubrey Summers was Friends. With them just from growing up, I guess, from high school or something like that. And so it wasn't like oh you can get your band sign, it was just more like we're fans of

Mud Honey and Sub Pop. And She's like, Oh, I can I know those guys, I can we can go see their office. It wasn't like really a business proposition, as just like we're going to It was just like let's go check it out. Yeah, this is gonna be cool. Yeah, it's just fun. And did you meet them? I think we did meet them. I think we did.

I just don't remember, but I do remember thinking like Oh This is cool, but it's also Like just It looks like an office.

Yeah. It was not exotic. It was exotic'cause it was sub pop and we were in Seattle, which was wild, but It was also very normal. I mean you had this band. Called chunk.

But what How did that conversation even start? Was it on that road trip?

It was on that road trip. Yeah. Mac brought up the idea of starting a record label. That we should start a record label and we should put out Our own records you know, do do seven inches and stuff. And It sounded pretty casual and like fun and we knew you know we knew it was possible, you know, it the the the veil of mystery had been removed from the idea of making records. Because Mac a couple previously had already been involved in pressing

vinyl records and It was just a thousand records, but still. scary thing that it was possible to to actually Make records and sell them.

Yeah. Yeah, and to actually do it in a sort of casual way. Because When That group of artists in Raleigh made that box set.

None of them were trying to start a record label. There wasn't a lot of promotion done. There was no marketing done. It was just We're making this Do you want to buy it? That seemed like something that wasn't intimidating and something that we could do.

If I had Th That it was gonna turn into what it is now or if the or that that was the goal. I would've said, no, I don't wanna do that. That sounds like

Too much work. No way. we come back in just a moment. Halora and Mac juggle the demands of launching a new record label while managing a band. and their own relationship.

Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. From NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's the summer of nineteen eighty nine, and Mac and Laura are back in North Carolina after a road trip to Seattle.

And this turns out to be a pretty eventful year because not only have they started a band called Chunk. They've also decided to start their own record label. Come out of frustration with major labels or with the fact that none of your bands were signed. No, it was not had nothing to do with that. No, it was more it wasn't a reaction.

Two something that we didn't have. It was more like Wouldn't this be cool? Like I think in other words like it didn't even have to really be discussed like oh, it'll be like this kind of label, not like that kind of label. It's just like we we knew what we were into. For instance, like we had just

Gone to see the sub pop. offices and just being able to make something Of our own. That was Both.

like what Sub Pop would do, but not Sub but but but our own thing, you know what I'm saying? Right. And we know all these bands. Maybe they'll let us put out their a seven inch with their music on it. And plus Mac was in a million bands.

Right. There was plenty there that we could put out. But you weren't you weren't thinking about this as like a business. You were thinking about this as a fun. thing to do. Yeah, more like an like a

I don't know if art project is the right word, but more of a An artistic Endeavor rather than a business endeavor. Right. By the way, how did you come up with the name Merge, Merge Records? Well, we were on a road trip.

And you saw a sign that said merge? Yes. Yes. We were s we were driving along trying to name it. And I found myself just looking around going, Antelope? Um

Yield, merge, and Merge seemed okay. I mean, really naming anything is terrible. It's hard. And and when you first name it It has the meaning of the word. And then over time it loses the meaning of the word. And becomes just a word.

It's the same with naming your band. Anything you say for a name for your band sounds really stupid. Until you've lived with it for a while. Yeah. And Whenever we have to explain how we named merge, it's it's it's sort of embarrassing to me because it's so just straightforward. Well

Could have been Antelope Records. Here we are. Um What I mean, you guys had a band,'cause I know that Um later that summer in nineteen eighty nine, you actually recorded

Some songs, your first few songs you recorded. But w what did having a label mean? that you had would Be in charge of like.

Getting the record pressed and And getting artwork made and then getting it to record stores. Is that what the r the role of the label would be? Yeah. And and Having helped assemble those box sets, something else that really appealed to me was the sort of craft aspect of it.

The idea of m making these objects and and putting them together and, you know, designing them Really it. Appeal to me. I had always liked making things and having Seven inches made.

Which is more what what I was thinking about than starting a record label. We would get to decide what they were gonna look like and then put them together. And that appealed to me. But did it if in fact it was a it was about

just distributing and printing and doing all the stuff for chunk. Why did you even need to create a label? It wasn't just gonna be for Chunk. It was gonna be For other bands. Help other bands out. I got you. Right. Like other bands in our community and also Max other bands. And I think that to answer your question, like why have a label why not just be like, here's a chunk record? To me the idea of the label wasn't

The mechanism. The place that like It does the printing and the manufacturing and the distribution, blah blah blah. though it was that in reality also, I thought of a label As

The Kind of aesthetic Umbrella. of like a certain group of artists. In other words, like when I thought of record labels, I thought of For A D or Sub Pop or Discord.

or team beat records, like they each had their own kind of voice. even though there was different bands within those families, you know what I mean? So to me the idea of the label it was more like Here's a Like I said, like a voice or like here's an umbrella. that that means something.

When you see that. Name. I think it also helps when you're trying to sell The object. When you're calling record stores or calling distributors, if you

aren't calling saying, I want to sell you a seven inch by my band chunk. Right. It was different if you were advocating on behalf of somebody else. Right. So I'm calling for merge records. Yeah. I have to do it. Yeah. We happen to be in the band, but you don't need to know that. Yeah. That makes sense. You record you know you record some tracks, you've got the label going. By the way, out of curiosity. Um

Did you form like a I mean you're you're still in college, both of you, did you form like an L C did you I don't Mac I mean I I'm just projecting here, but your dad was a lawyer. Did he help you guys like set up the business? Did you do any of that? Not right away. It was just you just called it merge records and It kinda lived in I don't know, you're

Your apartment, Laura, or your room dorm room or something? Yeah. Yeah, I was living with some other Women in a house. And Merge records was in my bedroom.

On a shelf. And Wasn't too long before Mac's dad figured out what we were up to and was like, You guys need to f need to uh Incorporate. I suggest you're an S Corp. Oh really? So so so that's so that's how it happened. He he kinda gave you some advice on what to do and how to set it up. Yeah, I mean he basically did it. And then he's like here, sign the papers. simply just producing singles and and like

But even to do that. Did you have any money? Any start up money? We borrowed money from Friends and family. Almost on like a per release

Ba basis like our Friend Lydia. I think lend us like five hundred dollars or something maybe for our first single or something. And by the way, what would five hundred dollars buy you like? How many Copies of the single.

that you could then sell. I don't know, maybe that would pay for printing the sleeves or something? I I I can't remember exactly. I mean things were cheaper back then. I think that It may have been enough to press Five hundred records. Yeah, they cost less

Than a dollar each. And sometimes like the band Would Chip in money to press the record and then we would pay them back.

So any money that we had was like Profit. the small amount of profit after paying someone back for Helping us press the record. Meantime you put out

For chunk, you put out some music on this label merge. that you have and This is complicated'cause I read that in Like Early nineteen ninety

You signed a deal. a record deal with a record label called Matador, which went on to You know, release. Huge bands and become a really successful label in and of itself. You sign a three record deal

The band Chunk Does. So W what it's a little complicated. Can you kinda break that down for for me and and help me understand why you would do that if you already had your own record label? Well With merge we were doing tapes and then

Vinyl seven inches. So The idea of putting out A full length album. It just requires a lot more money and

possibly know how and o other things too, so Matador. was interested in signing Chunk. To do albums. And if you remember.

At that time if you did a album you'd have to make a vinyl L P and a compact disc and a cassette. Yeah. So you're manufacturing a lot of stuff. It's expensive. It's expensive. And so the idea of of chunk signing to Matador was more like a parallel track of okay we can keep doing Stuff on merge too.

Singles. And then our band will be able to kind of take this step up in terms of being able to put out a f a full length album. And right around the time you signed to to Metador, um, you also had changed the name of the band from Chunk to to Super Chunk, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. And

Do you remember? what the dollar amount was when when you signed with Matador, was it tens of thousands of dollars? Was it Thousands of dollars. Hundreds of thousands? Several thousand. Okay. So so it was like it was like three, four, five thousand bucks. We'll pay you this advance, um, we'll we'll we'll cover the costs of the record in the distribution and then, you know, once we hit

this amount of money you you'll get a percentage of royalty. It was like that. Yeah, like it was a small deal. Right. I mean we knew how to do things cheaply. Yeah. And we knew how to work fast as a in terms of recording as a band and work in a local studio. Like we weren't trying to like we didn't think of this as oh now we're in the big leagues. We just thought of like oh we get to do

Kind of what we would do anyway. Um here's here's here's what I wonder. You graduate from Columbia. you go back to Chapel Hill. Your full time job now, Mac, is Superchunk and merge and and I think Laura at that point you still had another year of college left. But what I'm trying to figure out is Like how do the economics of this work, right? Because

Yeah, I mean Superchunk was you know, was g gaining a sort of a cult following on on college campuses and and you know, you were touring, but you were never in the billboard charts, right? You never had like mass you were never selling like hundreds of thousands of copies of your records. But in the those early days W were the economics such that you could actually live off Of what you were making from Superchunk?

No. If that were that We had day jobs. What did you do? Worked in the record store, worked at Kinko's

What did everybody anybody ever come up to a Kinko's and say Dude, you're Mac from Super Chunk. What I don't think we were just well enough. I guess But a as you started to like Get some more airplane stuff.

You know on college stations. Could you just focus on Super Chunk or did you still have to have other jobs? We had other jobs for a long time. I think Maybe after

Our third record came out? Wow. We were touring enough. That It seemed like we could support ourselves with the proceeds from our tours. And

You know, it's sort of got harder to Keep a job at Kinko's. Because You'd be gone for six weeks or two months and then you'd come back and try to get on the schedule again and then um Have to leave again.

Six weeks later. Did you did you feel like you had to tour a lot because that was the primary source of revenue and income? For you guys. Is that was that a a factor in why you toured so much and you performed live so much? I think it was Well, if you put out a record, that was especially back then, that was the main way to promote the record. Aside from getting it on college radio, you had to tour.

And Not only were we doing it to promote the record, but because it was fun and and it was how you connected with people. Y your um Your record no Paki for Kitty comes out. It's around the time uh maybe like a month after Nevermind by Nirvana comes out, which really kind of there's an explosion in attention to

small labels and, you know, all of a sudden just an explosion and then the major record labels kind of realizing that these these bands in Seattle and indie bands are, you know potential gold mines and but but around that time you guys started to get a lot of media attention, right? Like people were saying, Oh, this is the next Superchunk is the next breakout band. Did you remember that attention? I remember it.

From the point of view of People who worked for major labels wanted to take us out to lunch. hypertension. But beyond that, I kind of f Feel like we were in our own

World to a certain extent? And I I thought was awesome, but It felt like they were kind of on another a different level. It didn't feel I I never felt like Oh that's gonna be us.

In in the meantime, you had your own label. I mean at what point was there a band that that kind of came that you s who was the first band you signed? Yeah, be I mean it was built originally for your own band, but Also to distribute other music.

Who did you W was it mostly like Chapel Hill bands that were coming to you? Chapel Hill and Raleigh. You know, and and like we weren't really signing bands. We were putting out seven inches, you know, which are one off things, not a not something that anybody

Sign's a document over it. And plus like Yeah, it was all among friends. It didn't feel like we had to sign anybody. And then In nineteen ninety two.

Two We heard from Corey Rusk who ran Touch and Go records. And He had noticed what we were doing with merge and

He said that He would like to have touch and go manufacture and distribute On behalf of Merge. And they were based in Chicago, right? They were based in Chicago and and this would

Enable us to do s full length records. So it would save you you because you couldn't afford to do that. You guys didn't have the cash. So they would like Print. the records and all the st the labels and everything. And you guys would be the No, but it's not a

Manufacture it for us and then distribute it for us. So that left us basically in the position of having to choose the bands. You were the talent spotters. Yes, and then also do the promotion, like the the Trying to get people to write about it, trying to get it on the radio. Yeah. Trying to get MTV to pay attention. But she wasn't paying attention to your music. No. But but I think the first band that we signed was

Or didn't sign. Was Pavo. You mean in terms of doing a full length. And yeah, that's the first band we did a full length with. And w we d they were handshake deals. We didn't do agreements. We've sort of based how we dealt with bands on how Touch and Go did.

Yeah, what Corey did was a profit split, and so we thought that seemed fair. And so that's what we did with the bands that we started working with. So initially you w the band you would sign a band and by signing it you wouldn't even do a contract. It would just be like yeah, we're We're gonna ask you guys to commit to like three records with us and and we'll say that. What would you say? We would just say

We'd love to put out an album by you guys. Would you be into that? And they'd say, Yeah. And that was it. And then what did that mean? You would finance the recording and the Production of the record? I don't even remember giving Pulvo an advance.

We would take the masters give'em to Touch and go and they would Manufacture it. I don't know, do you remember it differently, Mac? I feel like we probably

A couple thousand dollars to record that record at Duck Key Studios or something? Um but I mean it was more like It wasn't like here's a big lump of money, go do whatever it was kinda like, How much did it cost for you to record? Okay, like well here's that. But there was no commitment. There was no talk of

How many do with them? I mean our assumption I think to this day is that If we're doing a good job, then why wouldn't you want to do another record with us? Though we do use contracts now. But uh we were taking the Handshake deal.

model from Labels like Touch and Go and Discord and Lables on the Punkier side. Of the

industry. No. Around You know, ninety two or ninety three.

Uh the two of you split up. You are no longer Together as a couple. Which You know, I mean that's a long time.

to be together, even though you were super young, um, but still young it's still a long time, and I imagine that was not easy. But here we are today, I mean, you know, twenty Five years later more. thirty years later still talking talking, the two of you, and clearly you're not together. You both have your own families and your but your business partners. Then when you split up. As a couple.

You had a band together and you had a Business. Merge. So what

Did you have a conversation say, Let's keep this going? Yes. Was it like that? Mature and adult? It w I don't know if it was mature and it's not.

But but basically it felt I mean I felt like what What we had built with Super Chunk and Merge. Was larger than us.

At the at this moment when we were splitting up personally. You know, like it was it felt like it had Merge and Superchunk both had a life of their own in a way and like Us not being together as a couple didn't have to mean that these other things had to dissolve too.

When we come back in just a moment, how Laura Mac keep their businesses together, even though they have split up. And how merge eventually makes a big bet. on a little known band called Arcade Fire. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

From NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So It's 1993, and Mac and Laura have just ended their romantic relationship after being together for about five years. But they are still very much together, very much partners when it comes to the record label Merge and their band Superchunk.

But maintaining that delicate balance? is not easy. It was not and and especially like Touring with somebody you just broke up with? Like being it the Yeah, it was hard. And he was

Yeah. And singing songs that may have been connected to I don't know, maybe not, but you know connected to love or relationships or feelings and I mean that must have been hard. It was hard. Yeah.

I think like, yeah, I remember um After Foolish came out touring for that record and being you know, listening to him. Singing those songs and like you know, being on stage and being angry and being sad. And you know, sometimes

Crying behind my hair, you know, like just It was a hard time. For sure. What what I'm curious about this. At this point merge is only

three and a half years old, and so was Superchunk. They were still new. Neither of them were making a lot of money or But clearly you saw something in in those two things that Even though it was still early days. And you are far far away from becoming sustainable in any way.

You saw something in merge. And even in Super Chunk that convinced you guys to work through your personal Differences. I think a lot of that was how much it meant to other people.

Like It's a responsibility. That It's hard to put down, you know? once you start doing it and you realize that other people are attached to it

It's harder to think. About Just deciding to do something else. I mean in a more selfish Way, I feel like

Yeah, we started the band and the label. We were like doing things as fans. In the sense that Well I like the way this record label does things or I like the way this band makes me feel when I see them live.

I wanna do that. And so from a selfish point of view As opposed to like well I can't take this away from these fans, it was more like we've spent a lot of time like making this thing Why should we

Give it up. Yeah. So So you're like twenty six, twenty seven, you're still really young.

But a really kind of mature decision. I mean I I I guess maybe I don't know. I mean I r I remember when I was twenty six and I don't I don't know if I would have made such a mature decision. I I might I think I would have been like screw you It's done. Goodbye.

But but really that that's why I mean and maybe people listening are like well why are you so surprised about the decision they made, Guy? But I'm just telling you thinking out loud here. And we've had stories in a show of couples who you know, EO products, the founders divorced and they kept go kept going. Amazing story. Stacey's Pita Chips. You know, um they had a split but kept g kept it going. Yeah, I think I think it's

I mean it was it was mutual to the extent that neither of us wanted to punish the other person. Yeah. So like I think that maybe if there was something that had been more like One person was more angry about it than the other person, then that person could take it out on that person by being like, Well, we're I'm br we're breaking up the band or something. But like we didn't there wasn't really that feeling, so Why

Trash this. Yeah. This thing that you've put so much into, you know. And sometimes that decision in a band can lead to a number one hit like Don't Speak by no doubt. 'Cause she wrote about the the other someone else in the band that they split up. And then she wrote that song? And there you go, number one's on.

Now you know what we were really going for. Ha ha ha. But really, like you're grinding away. You're doing a lot of Here's what's interesting about that. Superchunk never became

I think I'm right to say, and you're still around, but it never became like hugely commercially successful. It it had a huge strong fan base, but right, is it fair to say like never became hugely a huge commercial Act, right? True. And just to be clear, if you had only done Super Chunk,

Чи фрамас перспективі, куда? had sustained your lives and your family's lives and paid your mortgage and your bills and all these things. Had you only done Super Chunk? Uh No.

I don't think so. No. Um but but yeah, like once we started slowing down the touring and were able to focus more on merge, I think that like It enabled merge to grow. Boy.

That's the thing, right? Because Superchunk was the band. Merge was the label. I don't know if if if one of those alone would have worked without the other, right? Because While you guys were touring.

I imagine you would meet other bands. you know, while you were touring and and playing festivals. And then Probably people heard more and more about merge records. And so there was kinda like This

cycle, like this ecosystem that was formed. Like people saw you perform or knew about the band and then found out about the label or knew kinda knew about the label and met you guys and then people say, Oh, you should check out, you know, m mm talk to Mac and Laura because they've got you know, from Super Chunk because they've got this label. Is that r is that Right? Is that Oh those two things were connected? Definitely.

And like we would find out about bands And then Other bands that w were already on merge would tell their friends about merge, as you said, or they would come to us and say, Like, Hey my friend's got a band, like, you might not like'em, but I think they're great and send us their demos, you know. And so that's before merge was big enough.

To be known. by f I don't know, managers or whoever, like we're finding out from people that we already trust kind of thing. Yeah. You know? So here's what I'm trying to figure out. You you're Basically spending most of much of the nineteen nineties.

Touring. And also simultaneously. Building. This label. while also kind of dealing with the aftermath of your relationship. It's a lot going on.

But Why would a band go and work with you if they could go and w at that time? If they could go work for A a bigger label that would give them a bigger advance. Um

When you started a band, a punk rock band or a a band It wasn't because you thought you were gonna make a bunch of money and become famous. Yeah. It was because you did it'cause it was fun. And then it turned out you wrote some good songs and You were like, Oh th I think we're good enough, we should make a record.

But You didn't think you were gonna get on the billboard charts. You didn't think that you were gonna be able to make a living off it even. You know, it was w super chunk was very lucky. that we got to a point where we could support ourselves. Yeah. And that we reached a point where we didn't have to have day jobs other than running merge once we got home, which we didn't get paid for.

Right. Like whether a ban a band would sign with us or not, it wasn't about money. It was about Who do I trust? And Who will I feel good about working with?

And that changed at some point. I feel like now things are different. Yeah. But but T I think if there was a point you were making earlier which is very True that that like I think The success of both Super Chunk and Merge, they're codependent. Yeah one fed the other.

We couldn't have just started merge by itself without Super Chunk also. Yeah. And be where we are now. I mean it's almost like Super Chunk was like Your I mean if I'm I I hate to put in these crude terms, but today like we talk about social media marketing, right? And so Like super chunk was your

kinda like the publicity arm. I know it wasn't, but it sort of was because People. Then learned about merge and then it created this Momentum.

True and and from the other side, from the we talked a little bit about this, but from the artist relations side Bands. are more open to working with a label knowing that the people running the label are also in a band. Right. They trust you.

Yeah. Yeah. because they know that, or they hope that they're not gonna get. Yeah, screwed by you. Um I should mention that.

for for most of the first decade of the two thousands Superchunk just took a diatus. You just really kinda stopped the band and focused on the label. We did. And it wasn't I mean We couldn't have planned it.

Yeah. But it did happen to coincide with merge becoming a much busier um and bigger label. Which was kind of lucky timing. In that sense.

How did the two of you Have there been times L let's say after you've split up, right? And and you're running this this label. Well, you guys had

Some significant enough differences between the two of you that there was a chance that that merge wouldn't survive it? I mean we've definitely had disagreements. But I never I never felt like

What's gonna happen? Will there be a merge? Did disagreements ever ever get into shouting matches? I mean, I can't imagine either of you ever shouting'cause you're so soft spoken and chilled out, but maybe this is just in the interview. I don't know. Did you ever shout at each other? Shouting on email. Shout yeah, email shouting, all caps, it's terrible. It's so like disagreeing over what over over what kinds of things. It's been a while since we've had one of those. I'm trying to remember what the last thing was where we were

Disagreeing But you know For the same reasons that we Broke up probably. We have difficulty communicating with each other. If I feel like I'm trying to say something and I feel like Mac is refusing to hear me,

Instead of Figuring out a better way to say it. I Turn into a lizard.

And and I just am an angry lizard. s under a rock and and like I it's hard for me to express myself. I'm just man. You just fume qu you just silently Fume. I either silently fume or I send off some ill poor worded email that doesn't come across as I intended.

I want to ask you about um what I think one of the turning points in merch'cause I think it would take At least a decade before you were even Barely profitable, right?

But I want to ask you about a record that you released. In nineteen ninety eight. So so n eight years in, nine years in. Um the record's called In the Aeroplane Over the Sea by the band Neutral Milk Hotel. Um this for for people that don't know that record, um

huely influential became like just a hugely important like cult record among A certain um kind of music lover. Yeah. Yeah, in the Rock or Whatever we call call called Rock, whatever whatever it was. But

I love this record. It's a beautiful record, I'll just be honest with everyone listening. Um How did you come across that record'cause it was a slow burn. It wasn't like a huge hit right away. It didn't become a cult record f for for many years, um until after it was released. How did it how did it come to you? How did you guys get that record? Well, that was the second album that we released by Neutral Milk Hotel.

Right. So We had that relationship. But As awesome as an airplane over the sea is I don't remember feeling

Like when we got it. And we heard it I I remember thinking this is awesome, but I don't remember thinking like Oh my gosh, this is so different than the last record. This is gonna blow people's minds. Yeah. But but definitely like Exceeded my expectations of you know what it would sell.

Sure, because it's not like when you hear A neutral milk hotel you think like. Well, this is gonna be some popular music. Mm. thing that that band is doing. Everyone in it, you know, has is doing something interesting, whether it's

Julian playing the saw. Yeah. The drumming is wild, the horns you know. Yeah. But what's interesting about that record is as you said it was kind of a slow burn. And

The band did not tour for Yeah, And then they split up and then that's kind of when the record grew in people's minds and in the public perception. That record still was on many lists. Uh best album one of the best albums of the nineties. I'm assuming that must have been the first time.

that emerge. record. Got that much attention. I mean, I think that you know the This was definitely talked about in a different way and

It was kind of funny to me. Got it. It was spoken of with some sort of mystery because In our experience they're also just like a band stopping at Taco Bell on tour. Like they you know what I mean? Like they were people. They weren't They weren't ghosts, you know.

Yeah. I'm curious about your selection process, right? I mean How did you guys

And how do you make decisions? I mean, do you just listen to thousands and thousands and thousands of demos over the years and If you like one, that's how you'd pick. I mean What's your criteria? That's part of it. Like, I mean, that's a big part of it. You just listen to it and what's y you try to figure out what sticks with you.

And what's Different and interesting. And also I think you know, it helps a lot if they're nice people. Like that is a big

Part of it too for us. And and did you I mean as you Sort of. got better and better known in in that first decade. Were you just being inundated with demos?

Yes, a ton of demos, tapes and CDs. I mean the good thing is you can often tell within thirty seconds or so whether this is gonna be something that You're into or not, you know? Sometimes without even listening to it from the way it's being presented to you, you can tell. So

You're not literally listening to thousands and thousands. But There's a lot to go through and you don't want to miss something that Could be amazing, you know. Is there something that ever came to you that you guys did miss that you and some and then somebody else picked it up and then you heard it and you were like, Oh my god, we missed this?

Well there's certainly things that we wanted to put out that we didn't get to. Though I do know that after we put out the first Arcade Fire album, more than one booking agent. Called and said, You know? I could have booked that band. I had that CD sitting in a stack of demos on my desk and I just never listened to it. This is the this is the next, I think, hugely pivotal moment. for the label.

You released. Arcade fires. Funeral. That The that band would go on to become

Best selling. How did you guys have a Arcade Fire.

'Cause I mean not only they become hugely commercially successful, man, they won Grammys and Record of the Year and Album of the Year and all this stuff, like hugely on on lists of best albums of of of all time. How do they Come across your radar. The best way for any demo to get to us.

is for s it to be handed to us by someone we know. And Over the years of touring, of course, we met a lot of people. One of them was this guy, Howard Billerman. He sent us.

A demo. Uh Arcade Fire. He said you know they they came to record in his recording studio. And

You know, he was like, I think they're really good and and you sh you need to check them out. And The C D sat on Mac's desk for a while and he listened to it. It sat on my desk for a while and I listened to it. And the C D wouldn't play. Didn't work. It was like it was like a D V D or something weird, like uh

I was like Howard. demo. I can't listen to it. Okay, I'll send you another one. Like he s he sent another desk. So We finally got a disc that we could play and

It was so good and so I was into it to the point where I would play it for other people and be like, Is this really good or is it just reminding me of things that I think are good? You know, like I loved it. You know, it went around the office and everybody Liked it, but we're always

We make decisions very slowly. This is something that has always been sort of a We try not to rush into working with the band. And In this case, it took us so long to make up our minds. That when we finally reached out to the band

Apparently they were on the verge of signing A contract with a Canadian label. S And They got out of it.

And wound up on merge. How'd you convince them to sign with you? Well, I guess I w you know, at that point merge had enough of a reputation that it was It was a more attractive choice.

Than the one they were about to go with. I have to imagine that that record and then their subsequent records really Helped. Grow, merge. you know, by an order of magnitude, right? It's sort of like I think of like um Bloomsbury Publishing that it was a small publishing house in London.

And they signed an obscure writer. I'm JK Rowling. Um in like nineteen ninety seven or something. you know, like ten years after it was founded and then of course Bloomsbury publishing became enormous because Harry Potter became that series.

Yeah, it's like the Bible. It's sold. Yeah, but it w is it was Arcade Fire sort of like that for Merge? I think so. Yeah. In order to do what we needed to do to support that record. Yeah.

'Cause it just it just took off. Yeah. Like it we had to Grow really fast. to keep up with that record and like Yet again we had

We you know, we were like, Okay, I think this is gonna this record's gonna be really it's gonna do really well. It's gonna sell at least four thousand copies. And for a first record by a new band, that would be really good. And They also I mean, the album art for that record involved some elaborate um foil stamping and It involved multiple steps in which the the printing place would have to like

Let this one part dry before they then do the next part. Otherwise they'd stick to each other and like, you know, come the the stuff would peel off. So it was expensive. It was expensive and slow. And so when the record came out and People. Started buying it.

We didn't have any more. And we couldn't make them fast enough. And we kept like Yeah. Ordering more. And then by the time we got those, those were already sold out and we'd have to do it again and again. Wow. Which I sor I would say is like a terrible feeling for us. Um, not being able to keep up with

A record that people want to buy. Yeah, I mean how to can you explain And maybe there's no explanation. Maybe it's just Fate or whatever, but how does that happen? I mean I mean this record Their first record funeral. When certified gold in the US which means it's sold more than half a million copies. Double plant em in Canada, plant em in the UK.

Why this record? I mean obviously it's an amazing album. But still you need people to notice it and to talk about it. It's just some things kind of take off. I think it's a combination of How good that band was live makes people talk about them and makes them

Tell other people about them? Right. And then hearing those songs on record and they're as good as the band is live. It's an awesome combination. I remember when that

Like real US tour they're opening for Unicorns, I think. And They

club in Chapel Hill called the Cave. It's underground. It holds maybe like fifty people or something like that. And that was the first time we had seen them live, and they just blew everyone away and you could just see like wow like This We're blown away, but this is gonna blow everyone away. And I remember getting

Emails from people we knew around the country the first time they would come through town, I remember Brit from Spoon. emailing the day after they played in Austin for the first time saying like I just saw arcade fire and I simultaneously feel like I wanna quit music and like I wanna start a new band. Like um you know so like they were just making a huge impact on whoever saw them and

I feel like that's the one of the most powerful ways to communicate with people. I mean th th they have sold millions of records. I think Funeral probably close to a million and Definitely suburbs, um more more than a million. I mean Just to put this in perspective, I mean that's That's a lot of money. I mean that's tens of millions of dollars. In record sales.

I mean You guys said you weren't prepared for it. Like I know that you weren't thinking in terms of money and and business, but I mean It was like a lottery ticket in some ways, right? I mean

It just Like the fact that they sold so many records Obviously. reflects on on how good the music is, but also Resulted in in merge becoming

more than just a a small little indie label. Well, it's interesting because the way that We Work. Just like we were saying, like, Oh, if they sell four thousand records like that'll be a success for a new band on their first album.

we go into things trying to Keep a rein on you know, how much money we're spending because it's the band's money too, you know? Yeah. And so For better or worse, that does put us in a position of

Not having made the fifty thousand records that we could have s sold from the get go. But you know We also can't assume because that would be insane to think that the next record we put out by any band is gonna be like that. So in other words, we can't just scale merge up to handle a funeral every time because it's yeah almost never gonna be a funeral.

So so once that record came out And all of a sudden you just you didn't have the support. staff. How did you what did you do? How did you how did you cope with that? Some of what you do is you hire like independent publicists, you know, independent publicity people, you know, you hire out to contractors to do certain parts that you feel like you, you know, you find the right people.

And you hire them, you know, temporarily just for the project. That's a that's a lot of it. The other thing is that when a record gets as big as Arc or a band gets as big as Arcade Fire There's a percentage of people that know what label that record is on. But there's a much bigger percentage of people that don't know and don't care like even what a record label is. They're just like, I love Arcade Fire, you know, like when something gets popular

Beyond what you think of as like alternative world or whatever, indie world. That's not people who really think to look at the back of a record necessarily or even buy a record. If you were um if you want to make a lot of money in the throughout most of the twentieth century.

you would become a newspaper publisher because you would print classified ads. It was like printing money. Like if you wanted to make a lot of money You know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies, you could start a eighties, nineties, you could start a record label, right? I mean I mean the the guys who started Atlantic. I mean they people were making money with but if you wanted to lose a lot of money in the last twenty years you'd start a record label. Right because because music went digital. People I just went to Amoeba Records, a legendary record store in Berkeley, California. And it's just wonderful. You walk through there and it's like there's records and there's There's there's vinyl and there's C Ds and it's it reminds me of when I was a kid and I'd go to Tower Records and

In Los Angeles just such a It's such a powerful feeling, but Yeah, there are very few. I think You know, I I read that like in ninety four there were like a billion records shipped. By two thousand seven it was like half of that, but by today it's probably half of that.

I mean This has not been a good time. To be a record label, and somehow You guys Like

H have been thriving. Growing. What explains I mean people are going to Spotify they're not Buying records and not buying CDs. So what

What explains the fact that you guys are Doing better than okay. There's moments where it feels like a struggle. I mean it's definitely not as easy as it was. You know, when w people were buying downloads Yeah. Which they're not doing anymore. They're not doing anymore. Um

But you know. I think something else that has helped in the last Seven to ten years has been final coming back. Yeah. I wonder how many of these final records are actually being listened to sometimes, but like That is helping.

a lot to support artists and and record labels and record stores. Yeah. One thing that's difficult is that even though The way people consume music means that they don't. Really have to pay for it so much. All the things that we do On behalf of bands because we

Our job is really to Get the band's music out there to as many people. As we can. Make them aware of the band. get the band's music in a place where the people can hear it easily and know about the band.

All that stuff. still requires just as many people as it used to, if not more, on our end. Yeah. Plus we are still making vinyl and C Ds and tapes even. Um so all the jaw all the jobs are still there for people on our end.

but people don't have to pay for it on the other side. So that that's what's difficult. Now I mean it's interesting because In some ways the most old fashioned ways of promoting music are still the most successful and powerful, and touring is one of those. Because if you see a band

Live and they blow you away like that stays with you. More even than if you were just like You're in a coffee shop and you like the song you Hit Shazam and see what it is and Yeah, you might remember to

Go check that out when you get home, you might not. But if you see a band live and they blow you away, like Mm. You're gonna support that band. Yeah. When you think about

the journey you've been on, right? I mean thirty years, I think You celebrated your thirtieth anniversary as a as a band and label in twenty nineteen. Do you c could you have ever imagined that thirty years later You know, we'd be talking about The band and the label.

As these really influential, kind of iconic institutions in in independent music in America. No,

I mean I defin yeah, I definitely never would have imagined That's I love w what we've done and I've enjoyed it. Very, very much. But sometimes I resent it. Like sometimes I even am like damn it.

Like there were other things I wanted to do too, and now I don't I haven't had time. Because because this has turned out to be successful. It's f it's um It's been a gift though. Yeah.

Do you think that that what happened with Merge And the influence it had. had to do with just getting lucky, like just luckily Finding the right artist, or do you think it had to do with like the kind of the strategic

you know, and hard work approach that you guys took. Uh both probably. I I think that um Our strategy has always To be

careful and grow slowly and We've never had Big Goals on the long term. And I think that has served us well in a way,'cause we we've been cautious enough to avoid in general overextending ourselves. Yeah.

And that has led to our longevity, I think. Mac? Yeah, I think it's I think it's A combination because Of course luck is always involved and you

happen to run into the right person or Pick up a and put in a demo tape at the right time of day and it appeals to you in a certain way and end up working with that band or whatever, but at the same time You can Build on that.

With Doing things the right way and treating people well and doing a good job for your artists, you know. I I I just want to ask one more thing about the two of you because 'Cause of course this is this isn't just a story about the label or about Superchunk. It's a it's a story about

your relationship. So What do you think explains the success of your business partnership. Like what from your perspective, like why do you think it's worked? I mean you were boyfriend, girlfriend in your twenties, you split up Um and that now you've been in your you guys are in your early fifties, so it's you can look back and laugh or

That connection that That That's gone. But Uh but still you're

business partnership and your friendship has really Survived and thrived. Why? What what explains it? I think Probably because

We Like I'm not trying to do the business side. Right. Y you know, like we're not trying to like I I'm gonna do that. I need to do that. I need to do that. Like we're not trying to do step on each other's toes in some way.

But I I would say also that um You know, Mac and I are very different from each other. Like he's got big ideas, and I'm cautious. I'm the person going like we should do this. And then She's the person saying like why or I don't want to or something like I don't know, but That is kind of like the The relationship, you know.

Yeah. parts of what the business needs to succeed. And I suspect if you had two Macs running merge, merge wouldn't have Ha ha

Laura Balance and Mac McConn, founders of Merge Records and members of the band Super Chuck. The band was on hiatus for much of the early 2000s, but over the past 10 years, they've been back performing together live and in studio. In fact, they have a brand new single just out. It's playing behind me right now.

And it's called Endless summer. Yeah. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you want to reach us, our email address is hibt at npr.org.

If you want to follow us on Twitter or at How I Built This or my account at KaiRaz. You can find us on Instagram at how I built this NPR or mine at guy.Ros. This episode was produced by JC Howard with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. who is edited by Neva Grant with research help from Claire Murishima. Our production staff includes Casey Herman, Julia Carney, Elaine Coates, Farah Safari, Liz Metzger, and Harrison B. J Choi.

Our intern is Catherine Siper. Jeff Rogers is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. How I built this. Yeah. This

is NPR.

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