Live Episode! Wellness Coach and Podcaster: Jay Shetty

So today we're releasing a special live episode of the show. It's my conversation with Jay Shetty, a former monk who now writes books and hosts a podcast helping people seek out wisdom in their lives. I spoke with Jay back in March for a how I built this virtual live event. And although I do miss live shows in front of an audience, this one was super fun because we had people watching from around the world. Jay now lives in Los Angeles, but he's originally from the UK. He spent about three years training in India to become a monk, but eventually he left the ashram and started to spread the messages he learned there. But in ways that have had mass appeal. Today he runs a wellness and coaching business and hosts a podcast called On Purpose. Shay also produces YouTube videos and is the author of the book Think Like a Monk.

But before he became a monk and then returned to conventional life, Jay grew up in London, the child of Indian immigrants and the oldest of two kids. His dad worked as an accountant, and he and Jay's mom pushed him to work hard at school. I would say that I was a good student. I remember in my school, I went to a school in A rough neighborhood and and my parents were working very hard to give me a good

academic upbringing so I I performed fairly well at primary school But I think that it was truly at high school that I started to discover what I was passionate about. So I think when I was at Primary school, uh I g I don't know what you call primary school here, but grammar school for elementary, yep. Yeah, when I was in primary school, I thought I liked math because I thought I had to like math. And then when I went to secondary school, I realized that was my least favorite subject. There were far more fascinating subjects like philosophy and art and design. And I think that's where I really opened up to recognizing that there was more to the academic journey. So I think I was good. I've always been good at the basic subjects, thankfully. Uh but that's not where my passion lies.

I I read that that when your dad was in his maybe in his early forties, I I think I I guess he he worked in the city in London, so maybe I'm thinking in the in the financial district. Mm-hmm. he started to get spiritual actually. Like he started to begin to learn about his background and his faith. w what was going on in his life.

Yeah, I was around ten years old and my father by his own Admittance would say that he went through a nervous breakdown and He went through a period in his life where everything externally seemed to stack up. Uh he had a loving wife, he had two kids. He had a good job that was well paying, he was doing good for himself. He'd

You know, my father had grown up in um Terrible conditions in India. He took me to see his home. When I was probably around nine years old And his home.

was the size of the room that I'm in right now. And I know you can't see that room, but I would say that It was the size of an average bedroom was the size of his whole home. With Five other siblings in that home growing up. sharing a bathroom with other people in the village area. And so when I saw that at nine years old

it it really shocked me because I didn't grow up in a big home, but I grew up in a bigger home than that. And it really made me have perspective over my dad's life. So he'd left that, worked his way out, got a great education, become a chartered accountant. Working the city, but he felt A lack of fulfillment in his life, and I saw him me being at the age of ten. Quitting his job in the city

To go and pursue This crazy search, at least in my opinion, at ten years old. Of the truth. And that took him to everything from world religions to Scientology to Rachian healing to just You know, every different path. He was really curious about it, and that path lasted around

Two years. Wow. I guess when you were in what we call high school Um so you know sixth form or something like that in your in your case. You were kinda like a and and this is not uncommon for either American or British

high school kids you were like a kind of a partier. You were drinking and experimenting with drugs, which l let's be honest, a lot of teens do Was that like a rebellious phase that you were going through? Were your parents concerned, or was that When you think about that, was that just sort of You know

that phase in your life. So up until the age of fourteen, I think I was like the ideal son and uh teacher's pet and like Followed all the rules and Did my homework on time and Checked all the boxes and

you know, wore my tie tight to school and everything else that you would think and then For some reason at fourteen I did start to rebel, and I think The reason for my rebellion was hanging around with a certain crowd, that association and being around kids That were far more rebellious than I was.

earlier on. And I think a big part of it was I was seeking a thrill. I found myself wanting to seek this Thrill in life and that's the best word I can use to describe it. Because I started to feel like life was boring when you checked all the boxes. And I was like, well, life can't be about doing well at school. And doing your homework right.

And then getting you know, looking forward and going, Oh, we have to go to university, then get a job and I I just started to disconnect from that idea very early on in life. And unfortunately, or fortunately, it led me the opposite way. Almost towards being self destructive. And at the beginning it totally threw me the other way because I was just like, This doesn't work. I'm checking all the boxes, but I'm still experiencing racism. I'm still being bullied. I'm still not feeling

Fulfilled Maybe I'm doing this all wrong. And maybe doing things right isn't the right answer. And to my young mind with A father that was aloof, not a lot of um

mentorship from anyone in my life. I think that just gave me free reign to say I'm gonna go and experiment. And explore and see what happens. And how did that affect your relationship with your parents? Was it was it fraught when you were a teenager? I think my parents were worried for me. But They just gave me the freedom to figure it out. Like I I remember my parents in the beginning being really worried and my mom setting me down and having a talk. She'd always warn me of the dangers and how far things could go.

But they really just let me experiment and explore and I I was the kid at sixteen who got a tattoo on his neck. Right. Like that that was the and and I remember that night I came home I just went and got a tattoo on my neck and the tattoo I have on my neck is a microphone and it happens to be the logo of the Source magazine, which is a big hip hop magazine from the nineteen nineties. Wow, you got that at sixteen on your own without your telling your parents? Yes.

And the night I got back. And it was like little bit of bleeding from where the cord's meant to be of the mic. And the night I got back, my parents had friends over from India. So like traditional family friends. And I come home and they're like What's that on your neck? And I and I'm and I'm really proud of it. So I'm I'm not you know, I'm not scared or or anxious and I'm like, Oh yeah, I went and got a tattoo. I really believe in it and I love hip hop and rap music and that's what it is. And they w they were mortified, but they couldn't say anything because we had guests over

Uh I put my parents through a lot. They were very tolerant and and uh good parents. Yeah. It's a great tattoo. I mean obviously everybody who knows you knows that tattoo, but I didn't realize you got it when you were sixteen. I mean that that must have been shocking for them, right?'Cause especially if they had friends from India over who and they're thinking, This is what happens when you leave and you go to the w you know, you go to the UK or the US and then everything's corrupted. Everyone's corrupted. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I was just uh reaffirming the stereotype.

But but you know, for me it was just I I look back at that time now and I just think I'm so glad That I did try and push the boundary for me personally. Because It's what gave me so much confidence when I went completely the other way into my monk life.

I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything because I I felt like I'd done nearly everything that I possibly wanted wanted to do by that age. And so I kind of exhausted material Pleasures early.

All right, so you go off to um to university. And so, you know, I mean I I it sounds like you were still serio enough where you knew that you were gonna go to university and you went to go study business at a at a business university Presumably you were on that track. I'm imagining that you were you were at a at a university with a lot of other business minded kids and maybe they go into accounting or finance or go work for a corporation and that

I have to assume when you're eighteen That's your mindset too. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the details on the tattoo is that I got it so that I could wear a college shirt and you wouldn't be able to see it because in the back of my mind I knew I'd have to get a real job one day. That kind of conditioning of You will work in an office.

And you have to be academic was so dip. Inside of me That my rule book in my teens became as long as I get good grades, nothing else matters. Yeah. And yeah, I I completely saw myself going on to work for a financial institution or company or organization and

Just continue on in that path. And I guess you were really into reading about entrepreneurs and CEOs and sort of self made Millionaires and billionaires. I mean,

Did you study them? Was that was that was that inspiring to you? Well, I didn't have your podcast to listen to, guys, so uh I had to find another way to do that. And and I guess at that time you you had to go and read books. And this was actually the genius of my father, so I grew up Thinking I didn't like reading. Huh.

And so I never picked up a book. And read a book. front to back if I didn't have to for school until I was fourteen. And the reason is because I realized I didn't like fiction books. And I didn't know that, I just thought I didn't like reading.

And so when I turned fourteen, my father started giving me biographies and autobiographies, whether they were of spiritual people or whether they were of CEOs or or entrepreneurs or whatever it may have been. And so I remember the first two autobiographies I read by my own choice. Uh, with David Beckham's autobiography. Uh I was a big fan of David Beckham, I'm a big Manchester United fan. And I remember reading the autobiography of uh Duane The Rock Johnson, and that was when he was in the WWE and WWF when I used to watch it.

Uh so those were the first two autobiographies I read and I loved them. Because Inside of them were like these real stories of sacrifice and of discipline and of focus. And I realized that everything that school was trying to teach me, I was more inspired to do because of these two individuals sharing their story vulnerably. as opposed to the the traditional way. And so it was less about the money and the success

And it was more about the fascination of Wow, this person is really given up something. I remember reading about The Rock talking about his experience with depression. And and how he'd broken through that.

And how he didn't have very much when he started out. And at the same time there were there were spiritual text that my father was introducing me to, whether it's the Bhagavad Gita or whether it's the story of origin in the Bhagavad Gita. And so It was almost like My dad introduced me to the book that would get me interested in reading, and I think that's the genius of

that moment in my life because otherwise I grew up believing that I wasn't interested in anything. For me those biographies and autobiographies were doing that and that's what I was interested in. Yeah. Alright, so you are

In business school And I guess in your first year, um, a friend of yours kinda But they were like, Hey, there's this guy, he's a A Monk uh Garanga Das is his name, he's he's gonna come speak. Come come along, come come to who first of all Who is Garanga Das?

So Garanga Das is a monk. uh who's based in India. He himself graduated from IT, which is like the MIT of India. Sure. Uh exceptional gold medal standard. Uh first class student phenomenal a what he did he left that life After he graduated to go off and be a monk.

And in his life as a monk in the Hindu tradition, he's gone on to start uh ecovillages, start on food distribution programs, and all this service based philanthropy work And today I still try and spend as much time with him as I can. uh when I get to visit him. So yeah, that's a bit about a bit about him and I talk a lot about him and think like a monk. So tell me what the story w tell me about the story. A friend said, Hey, this guy's coming to talk did you even know who he was? No, so I I had zero idea and zero interest of who he was because at the time we were hearing from

Entrepreneurs that were starting amazing businesses. We were hearing you know, I was reading books about celebrities that were world famous. Yeah. And I was fascinated by Rags to Riches stories. And when I heard that a monk was coming, I was like well that sounds like a rag story, right? Rich is a rag story. Yeah, Rich is the rag story. I was I was blown away by people who'd gone from nothing to something, not nothing to nothing. And I really was very sceptical and had very limited views on how beneficial this would be to me. But I asked my friends, I said to them, I'll only come if we go to a bar afterwards. And that was my state of consciousness at the time and my level of frequency.

And my friend said, Yes, yes, yes, we'll definitely go to a bar afterwards. That's the plan And so I went to this event literally expecting nothing. And I think this is the beauty of life changing moments and the irony of life changing moments that they humble you in hindsight. Because I went there with arrogance and pride and thinking, What am I gonna learn from this monk?

And then you walk away just having found a new life path that truly changes and what it was for me was I'd never heard anyone Аді в Айті спи баба до тінь зі спокій спокбат селлес сервіс. He spoke about living a life

For the benefit of others. He spoke about using your skills and talents in the service of others. And now when I look back, guy, I realize that when I was eighteen I had met people who were rich. I had met people who were famous. I'd met people who were beautiful and stunning and powerful.

But I don't think I'd met anyone who was truly happy. And he emanated happiness, like he emanated joy. And and when I watched him with his charisma and his energy and his he was a he's a brilliant storyteller too. When I saw him I thought I want to spend time with this person because

It wasn't about the things he had, і was about the values he had, and you could see them. In his presence, and so I just started gravitating towards him. As if he was the most beautiful person in the world. Just like a combination of his energy and his message just struck you and what you went up to him afterwards and you and you were like Hey.

Uh can I Keep in touch with you? Did you go and talk to him right then and there? Basically I was like how do you keep in touch with a monk? Like I was like, Do you know can I can we like Yeah, I have some correspondence. I was always

eager to connect with people that I gravitated towards and I approached him just like you said and I said, Hey, I'd love to keep in touch and want to get to know you more and know about your work more. And he was doing a lot of events in London at people's homes, at temples, at different institutions in London he said, Well why don't you just come and join me at all these events. So he told me his calendar and I literally that week I think I went to every single talk that he gave because I was just fascinated by what he was sharing. And we became very good almost like friends that week because he would see me front and center row every single time. Listening to him, connecting with him after the events. I'm I'm just it's so interesting to me because eighteen is still such a young age. to to and our brains.

are still developing like our our level of sophistication will grow exponentially for the the rest of our lives. Eighteen, you're still on the precipice, like the verge between childhood and You know An adulthood.

And it's it's striking to me that that Вот і седти. You know, it it sh it affected you so deeply at eighteen. And it seems like Jay You can't even fully articulate it because you you Right.

Maybe you don't really know why, but you just felt it. Yeah, it's I I give the credit to him. Because it was his power and strength that was able to penetrate my eighteen mind. You know, I was just a lost eighteen year old kid looking for a thrill.

But I think It was the first time I got exposed to the idea. Of living for something beyond yourself and For whatever reason that is Да айдія

kind of became contagious in my mind and I was just like Um That sounds like the goal of life. Like To help others, to serve others, with your gifts, with your talents. It just resonated and because Because he had done that too, because he had left

А матеріали сук свой чи серв. It penetrated deeper because it was his reality and truth. It came across very aligned and authentically towards me. That Encounter. Inspired you

to begin spend a series of summer vacations. In India. At an ashram. It's clear why you you made that decision'cause you were inspired by him, but how did you identify a place to go? She go and study.

Well it was the ashram that he studied at. So is the Radha Gopanath Ashram in Mumbai And I asked him if I could come and spend time with him. And we'd built up such a good friendship during our time in London. He was probably there for a total of a month at that time. And he kind of took me under him as an apprentice almost. And so I would just go out there, whether it was my Christmas holidays or my summer holidays, and I'll just try and spend whether it was two weeks, whether it was a month, whatever I could get.

I would go and be with him. And the other half of it I'd be interning at financial companies that I thought I'd go on to work at. So I got this I was experiencing two completely different ecosystems where I would go from sleeping on the floor. to living with the monks, to meditating every day.

Heading into the city of London, bars, steakhouses. And corporate culture. А вас living these back to back during the summers. And whenever I'd come back from living with him in the ashram, I would feel a sense of peace.

feel a sense of purpose and meaning. And every time I'd come back from the office I'd I'd feel tired, a bit disengaged. I I wouldn't feel enthralled with the work we were doing. And it I just started to move more and more in that direction. And so when you graduated from business school You decided

to move to India and be and and and s stay at the ashram and to and to be and to become a monk. Yeah, absolutely. And and people have always asked me, like, you know, was that difficult? And the answer is it wasn't difficult because of all the mini steps I'd taken every year from the age of eighteen to twenty one. And so when I go off at twenty one to make that decision and and make that leap. I already knew the monks there. I'd I'd lived there before, I knew what the living situation was like, and so it almost felt like

This was almost like a moment of graduation and excitement. And so I missed my graduation ceremony. back in London. I graduated but never went to the actual ceremony and the the giving of the certificate, my mom's still upset that she doesn't have a picture of me standing there uh with my hat and and and with my certificate. Ah, but I was so excited.

But at the same time, that decision was met with So much. Cynicism and so much negativity from my extended family. Yeah. My my parents by then had got used to me making crazy decisions and and letting me go along with them.

Uh, but my extended family were saying things like, You know, who you're never gonna make money again. This is career suicide. Like, you've been brainwashed. Like what have they been feeding you? What have they been telling you? U I remember my friend saying to me, I remember one of my friends saying to me, he said He said, Well if you're gonna be a monk now, how can we be friends? And I was like we can still be friends and he goes No, but all we did was

Talk about women and I was like, really? I was like, Is that all we talked about? Like is that all you thought of our friendship? And it was just I was hearing all these really random things from people. And so it felt like a very lonely decision. It felt like a very isolated decision. Yeah, I mean there's a photograph of you um in in robes, um, I think your head is mostly shaved, is that right? Yeah, there's there's I only have a couple of pictures of my time as a monk. Your head was fully shaved.

You're dressed in full on robes, you only get two robes, you wear one, you wash the other one You sleep on the floor on a very thin mat, uh w with a covering And no place is yours in the ashroom. So you sleep wherever there's space every night and someone could take your space You live outside of a gym locker, so everything you own literally fits inside of a gym locker. So I remember before I left I remember giving away my football soccer jerseys to my friends and handing them out and

I remember giving away lots of my prized possessions which I Which I really asked for back when I came back, but no one gave them back to me. Yeah. And uh it was a big big move and I all I remember of it was feeling so excited.

But at the same time knowing that It was met with so much. Criticism and negativity and it it wasn't easy. You you would end up staying for three years. Tell me what what your typical day was like. Classes, meditation, what Wha what was it?

So we would wake up at four AM every single day. And at four thirty M we would have the first collective prayers. Those would last till about five fifteen. Then from five fifteen to seven fifteen would be personal and individual meditations, a two hours of meditation. And then seven fifteen a.m.

would be another collective prayer ceremony for another half an hour. And then from seven forty five till about eight forty five would be our first class of the day. And then finally at eight forty five you'd have some breakfast. And so that was our morning every single day. Now The rest of the day was different. Some of them were study days and meditation days where we'd be meditating some days for four to eight hours at a time, studying for four to eight hours at a time. Some of them were service based. We'd be out distributing food at school.

We'd be out trying to build this sustainable village. We were doing lots of Philanthropy work and the reason why Garangadas' path attracted me so much Із зафе ви селф. And half the day was service.

And I saw this as a beautiful formula for life because I realized that I didn't want a path that was fully solitude. or fully isolated because that didn't feel like reality. And at the same time I didn't want a life that was fully philanthropy. But then you weren't working on yourself. Yeah. And so this path really allowed me to go deep into both those uh areas. At what point

Did you start to realize This isn't the life for me. that that this is not the life that I I should be pursuing, the life of a monk. I'd say it was about two years in. I'd I'd taken a lot of my experiments very Tough. So I would I was one of those people that was like, I want to test whether meditation really works. So I would only sleep four hours and I would barely eat. And I would be like, I'm gonna test whether meditation can do this for my mind. Uh we'd do crazy fasts. We'd

Uh, I w I was just trying to push my body so much, and what I didn't realize is that you can do that with a twenty-two year old body. Uh but but it's not sustainable. And Two years in I started to realize that I had a very independent Rebellious in the positive sense that I see it now, nature.

And what I started to realise, which I only now know in hindsight is that my desire for independence and my own inner calling Во строго демай комітмен. To the community. And coming to that realization that

what I'd left everything for was not going to be my life for the rest of my life, which is genuinely what I thought it was gonna be. It was the hardest Awakening because it almost felt like I was getting a divorce. You know, I was eighteen when I first met Gorangadas. For three years while I was at university all I dreamed of was becoming a monk.

Then I became a monk for three years. So like that's like you know The formative years of my life were like I'm gonna be a monk. This is what I'm gonna be, this is my identity. And then to realize that it wasn't It was the harshest reality uh to come to and it I I literally describe it like a divorce or a breakup from the love of your life because I was Dedicated and committed to that path.

So two thousand thirteen. I think you're twenty four, twenty five. You come back to London? Did you come back with the goal of just jumping back into where you left off and finding a corporate job? So we travelled as monks as well. We'd we'd travelled to London, we'd been to Europe, I'd lived in London and Europe as a monk as well as India.

But when I came back for good I was just scared. I was really fearful. I came back to all the noise again. We told you so, you wouldn't make it. We knew you were brainwashed.

Oh, you were never gonna make it as a monk, you know, you've dated too much in your life to make it as a monk. Like how are you ever gonna make that happen? Oh, who's gonna hire you now? Do you know the job market's even worse? And all of that noise in my head was so scary. I was genuinely Stress, depressed, lost, confused. And

I I felt completely disconnected from real society. I'd forgotten how to have small talk. I didn't have a network. Uh I didn't I didn't know if I what job I would get or what I would do. And so really for the first month I kind of Like just wasted time. I

The first thing I did was buy lots of chocolate. I hadn't eaten chocolate for three years, so I ate a ton of chocolate, dairy milk, uh brilliant chocolate brand in the UK. I ate a lot of chocolate. I listened to Drake. caught up with episodes of How I Met Your Mother, which I'd never watched before, and I watched the whole season, like all thirteen seasons, I think it was I just kind of went back into like this old life of habits as a student almost.

And it was about a month into being back where I realized that That was only feeding my fear. Yeah. And that was only making me Feel lazier and feel less smart. and feel less able to navigate the world.

And it was at that point where I realized that Actually, if I applied everything I learned as a monk. This was gonna be the test and the exam for whether it really worked. And so I saw that Twenty ten to twenty thirteen was like being at school.

And twenty thirteen onwards was the exam for whether what I learned at school actually worked. And it was at that point where I decided. I need to live like a monk outside in the world with the meditation with the practices. Because by the way, eating junk food, listening to music and watching TV is definitely not helping me. When we come back in just a moment. How Jay Shetty began to find a way to bring his experience as a monk into his post-monk life.

But before he could do that He had to find a job. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. from NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz.

So It's two thousand thirteen. And after leaving his life as a monk in India, Jay has moved back in with his parents in England. He's trying to kind of pick up where he left off. He's got a business degree and he's applying for jobs, but

He's not getting many responses. People won't even give me an interview. Like they won't even Get me into the room. Because surprise, surprise, no one wants to hire someone who has monk on their resume. That's they're like, what are your what are your transferable skills? Like being silent and sitting still, like no one wants that. And genuinely I was just getting I was getting more and more depressed and stressed because I thought, you know what?

Everyone was right. They were right. I failed at life. I messed up. I failed at being a monk and now I failed at life and now I'm not gonna get a job and now I'm not gonna make money and I can't take care of myself and my parents are getting criticism for like, oh look, you went you let your son go off and look, he's ruined his life now and That noise is high and I'm feeling all of this pressure and then finally Uh Accenture gives me a break. So I get

uh a job at Accenture, which is a large consulting firm for anyone who doesn't know. And I get a break, but I'm now twenty six, so I started Accenture in the October of twenty thirteen. And I'm twenty six at this time, and everyone who's got that same job is twenty one. Yeah. Because I've joined their graduate program because they wouldn't allow me into any senior roles. And almost immediately as I went back into that lifestyle, which is very weird now, I'm going back to wearing suits.

I'm going back to networking events. I remember our first night Uh corporate companies always put on these networking events for your start group And it was pizza making. And it was so funny because

I was just like, I haven't eaten a pizza for quite a while. And I'm sitting there like trying to make conversation and like talking to people and and I realise I know nothing about What's happened, like I'd I'd forgotten I mean, obviously by then I knew, but I didn't know who'd won the world cup, I didn't know who the prime minister of the country was. I I wasn't aware what the the the coolest, trendiest things were. Right.

And so here I am just trying to talk about meditation and mindfulness at a pizza making networking event. But I really found that I'd fallen so in love with the practices But I kept trying to share them more and more inside the company. And the most amazing thing happened. That

Almost in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, it was the same time that mindfulness started to become a movement in the world and meditation started to become a movement in the world. And I just feel so blessed and fortunate to have come back at that time, you know, it's it's nothing to do with me. I'm just grateful that The world was in that space.

And I remember my head of my my my group at at ecsentia found out That I Had learned meditation and mindfulness, and she invited me in twenty fourtin. To speak to a group of a thousand consultants on stage.

About mindfulness. Wow. And so in twenty fourteen I'm seriously nervous because I'm in between the CEO. Of the UK And Island Company Accenture.

And the other person that's speaking is Will Greenwood, who's a rugby world cup winner with the England rugby team. Uh-huh. And they've got me Unknown Mr. J Shady analyst at the company Newbie, been there for six months, in between on stage in front of all of my peers. Who don't know who I am and don't care. And I've been asked to teach mindfulness and meditation.

And and I I remember the whole time I was listening to the CEO and Will Greenwood, I was sitting there going Oh my gosh, they're so funny. Oh God, that was a really good point. Oh God, like I'm t like what am I gonna do? Like I was stressed. And then I remember before I went on stage I did my breath work practices that I'd learned as a monk. And I remember saying to myself, look, just be you, just be you, just be you And and I went on stage.

And I taught a meditation. And when I got off stage and I spoke to my managing director and everyone, they said, Jay, we've never heard That group of people Be that quiet for that long ever. And the event went so well that on top of my day job as a consultant, I started traveling across the company internationally.

Teaching mindfulness and meditation. Wow. Uh across the company to directors, colleagues, people and it just Was it was such a beautiful experience and feeling. So that really I mean that That really sort of kicked off

what would become a completely different career. I mean y it sounds like You were on the Uh you know, sort of on this accountancy or consulting track. And That one

That one kind of shift, that one nudge that got you on that stage really kind of set you off on a completely different path. Yeah, it it gave me a it gave me a sense of confidence and a sense of Reassurance that what I had to offer from my experience. was useful to people. I think that's the point is that I found a use.

But there's another nudge that a lot of people don't know about Guy and I wanna share with you is that at the same time as mindfulness and meditation sharing was growing in my life I was also getting involved in extra curricular activities at Accenture. At that time Accenture was becoming extremely focused on digital and social media.

Now I didn't have a social media account until twenty fourteen. Like the only account I had was a LinkedIn account because of uh university. Uh-huh. But I had no Facebook, no Instagram, no Twitter, nothing until 2014. And so I joined ten years late for Facebook and five years late for everything else and So I start up a social media account.

And I I realize that there's some power in social media, but I don't know what it is, but I love connecting with people and I love messaging, so I'm intrigued. And so Accenture has a program and they say that if anyone wants to do this as an extra curricular, they'll be trained in social media by these social media experts that they brought in. So I I kind of just felt a sense of interest and curiosity, not knowing that it would ever become my life.

And I started performing really well at social media at work. I went on to be the number one social media person at Accenture Globally out of five hundred thousand people. Um working and training our execs and clients on how to use social media for work. And and so it was almost like these two worlds that Accenture gave me skills, confidence, strength uh abilities that that then finally obviously came together. And meantime, right, you you are

working on mindfulness, but you're also becoming more adept to social media and it sounds I mean it sounds to me that like You know. those two ideas meld in your mind and you come to the realization that Well maybe

Maybe w I can take one and use the other to Amplify these messages. Yeah, absolutely. I just I could see that Mindfulness and meditation was helping the corporate world.

And and by then I'd been speaking at other companies and organizations in London, but Inside of me I felt slightly dissatisfied because I was like The world needs this beyond the boardrooms, beyond the companies, beyond the organizations. Everyone needs this. And and I was thinking, how does everyone get access to this? And I thought well social media seems to be the only way you can reach everyone.

But before I did that I didn't feel confident enough to do social media, so I started pitching my Video siriza IDA Two media companies in London. So before I ever made a video. I had the idea for a mindfulness based video series idea, and I started pitching it to

Every media institution in London. And I applied for a trainee video journalist position. to try and get my foot through the door and ten companies said no. They said you'd have no communications degree. You have no background in media, you're not getting the job. Right. So then I networked with my network at Accenture and through other people to meet

Exact Uh uh companies and I I asked them, I said, Well, will you give me a job And they said, Well, Jay, you know, you're too old to be in media. Everyone who wants to break through is twenty one. I was twenty eight at the time. I then spoke to someone else and they said to me, Well, Jay, you know, you're like

You're not accomplished in this space, you're not a proven presenter, like you should don't worry about this. And I ended up at a ethnic minority TV training day run by the BBC at Pinewood Studios. Oh wow. I went there to test whether I had the skills. I walked into a room, there were six brown and black people in the room. And we were trained in presenting. At the end of the day they said, Jay You've got some skills, you've you've got some talent here.

And I said, Great, give me a job And they said, Uh there's no jobs in media. Huh. And I was like, You invited six ethnic minority people to tell us there's no jobs in media. Like this is great news for us. And they said you should start a YouTube channel. Well. And my honest

Thought process and response was that works for Justin Bieber and one in a billion people that does not work for me. Yeah. And and I love Justin Bieber. I'm a I'm a believer, but I was like, that works for him. He's incredible and talented. That's not gonna work for me. And I realized and there's a beautiful statement by Thomas Edison

When you feel you've exhausted all options. Remember this you haven't. Mm. And it was at that moment in my life where I realized that social media was the only option I felt I had left. Wow. If I was to try and serve the world in this way.

So you you basically started your own Channel Many people will will be familiar with your videos because they're dramat dramatizations with actors and and you're in the videos and how did you start just with it with like a I mean, did you just start filming things yourself? Yeah, so one of the things that we We didn't touch on was that

I started a society or a club at university called Think Out Loud. Аври сингл век I would give a talk. on philosophy, media and psychology. So I would take a movie like Inception and I would analyze it from a philosophical, psychological, and media point of view, and students would gather to hear me speak for free. Uh, no followers, no numbers or any of that stuff. And we went from having ten students in my first year of university to a hundred every week coming to hear me speak about philosophy, psychology, and media.

And so I'd been speaking and delivering and making content for ten years before I ever made a video online. And so my first video I made Вас Actually a script and made up of scripts that I'd written and shared for years before.

that I'd already tested out in audiences and people had heard me share those messages. And my friend was a wedding and corporate videographer, and I said to him. You gotta come out with me. And actually he was always very encouraging of me. He always said to me, Like, Jay, you should make more videos and media. And so we went out. We're s we still we always try and figure this out.

It was either New Year's Eve or New Year's Day. We went out really early in the morning. And literally London was empty. So we could shoot. In some of the most phenomenal locations in London for free without a permit.

So we had no permits, we had no we had we had none of the the the professional things that we could have. We had a boom mic that I was using my backpack to make it stand upright. And he brought his camera and he he had a brilliant eye for like backgrounds and lenses,'cause that's was his profession. He did it for free for me. And we shot four videos that day in different locations. I I I took my t shirts in my backpack and I would change my t shirts. And

We put up my first video. Which was called um Three lessons I learned from the Bhagavad Gita, which was the book that I studied as a monk. Yep. And the video did about five thousand views in twenty four hours, which wasn't bad at all. That's how we got to my first video.

And it's I mean it's amazing. I mean I Ariana Huffington somehow caught of of videos that w you were putting up and I guess reached out to you and said, Hey, you know Do you want to work together?

This is my favorite bit because anyone who's trying to break through on social media, this is the formula that I use that worked for me. I made a list Of every single exec at every single media company in an Excel spreadsheet. And I emailed Tweeted

And mailed. Every exec every week when I released a new video. I got tons of hate on Twitter, I got tons of criticism, people saying this is terrible, it's not a good video. Um I never heard back from lots of execs.

I heard back from lots of execs that said, Jay, we like it. But we don't need content like this right now. And then what happened is I was also sharing it on the internal social media network at Accenture. And my global HR leader at Accenture, Ellen Shook.

saw the video. And she showed it to Ariana Huffington at Davos. Wow. So they were at Davos together. Um she shows my video to Ariana Huffington. The next thing I know, Ariana Huffington's team gives me a call. And says Ariana loves the video, we love the video, we'd love to talk and get to know you. Wow. Uh, two of her team members, Danny Shea and Dan Katz, two people that I love and adore and who change my life as well, they fly to London to meet me.

I meet them at the Huff Post Offices in London in Victoria. And and I go there going ready to ask for a job because now I'm like, this is my moment. So I go there and I'm like, guys, give me a job. And they're like, Slow down, Jay, slow down. They're like We're going to share your videos on the Huff Post page and let's see how it goes. There's no money. There's no anything. Let's just see how it goes.

From that day till the day my first video comes out. I send Danny Shea emails every day for thirty days saying, You promised me that we were gonna put my video out. Why have we not done it yet? And so I'm pestering this guy again and again and again. Finally, after like twenty one days, he responds and says Jay, let me introduce you to one of our producers. We can get it going.

We put the first video up. It does a million views in a week. Oh my god. Uh we put the we put the second video up, it does a million views in twenty four hours. Wow. We put the third video up, it does the same. And those four videos I originally made did a collective hundred million views. And that's when Ariana Huffington and the team and by the way, I'm pushing it the whole time. I'm like, Okay, now I think it's about time I move to New York. Now I think it's about time you offer me a job. Right. And and Danny comes through. He he gives me a job offer. Ariana and Danny sponsor my visa. And I moved to New York in September of twenty sixteen. Basically you begin to

to to do the same thing but within the Huffington Post. And just for I mean, I know a lot of people watching and and and listening um know your videos, but but for people who don't know, what what what were the messages in those videos? The messages in my videos were were messages I think I was trying to live by at the time. And so there are messages about failure, messages about deep reflection, messages about breakups and romance messages about Uh never

facing rejection with a negative response and my My massive transformational purpose became making wisdom go viral because I really believed at that time that Cat videos were going viral and dog videos were going viral and people taking their clothes off was going viral. And I was like, I wanna make wisdom go viral. And it s seems to me like you really studied how to do that. I mean the the even the headlines of your videos are like If you're if you're in a breakup and you're sad, you have to watch this, right? Like you you were really sounds like you were really studying other videos that were going viral and and and you were trying to use some of those techniques.

Yeah, well I I realize that There was no use in making something powerful if no one was ever going to see it. Right. And and that was my initial worry with social media was well, I'm just gonna be one not the person making content. And what I started to realise and this was actually a really deep point that led to those titles

was that I realized that the only time a lot of us seek guidance in our life Із і транзищен. It's in transitions that we seek mentorship and guidance and advice. We don't seek advice when we're in a stable place. Right. And so when I made a video called Before You Get Married, Watch This, it's because I believe that that is what you need before you get married. And so those those titles

Came were born from a very deep place of recognizing that people only turn to guidance When they're in A transition. And you were taking the messages that you had learned.

And assimilated. Studying in the ashram and reading. From These Books that were filled with wisdom.

Yeah, I was I was actually bringing together everything I'd learned, whether it was from autobiographies and biographies, whether it's from the entrepreneurs that I loved growing up, it was from the ashram, it was it was bringing together all of my unique experiences. Because You know, I've In my twenties I lived three different lives. I lived the life of a monk.

The life of management consulting and then the life of media And it's interesting because I think I'm all of them. And and I think that's the most beautiful thing that I've learned in this whole journey is that every time things have evolved for me. I feel more of my self. as opposed to having to decide which one I am. And that's what I was sharing.

You know, Jay um Many many of our listeners will know that you eventually went off, I think, in twenty seventeen. to to do this on your own, outside of an organization and and I'm interested in talking to you a little bit about the business side because

You are the brand. We've and we've done shows where The person is the brand. Logic is a good example. We just had Rick Steves on the show the travel guru he is a brand You J Shetty are the product, right?

How did you begin to kind of come to terms with s with th this idea that Your business. And what you were creating was going to be you. One of the things that I realized, and this was rewiring my relationship with money and business.

So I didn't grow up to a wealthy family. I I wasn't around wealthy people growing up. I didn't know many entrepreneurs or CEOs growing up personally. And in twenty seventeen I had a hundred million views, but I was four months away from being broke. Well. And so I had a hundred million views, we had about four hundred thousand followers.

And I hadn't thought about business, or I hadn't thought about money because all I was trying to do was serve and give Awkward situation where

I had four months left to pay rent and groceries living in New York City I got married six months before that. And I had thirty days till my visa ran out in the US and that visa cost fifteen thousand dollars. So I was in this really difficult situation

And I've never felt more stress or pressure in my life than at that moment, and what I realized In that moment is that I had always lived with a just enough mentality. And so I uh growing up, I uh I was at zero in my bank account so many times. I've experienced zero so many times. And I can see a comment popping up from my friend uh Alex Kushner, who he's saying I remember it well because we both went our separate ways. from the organization at the same time, and we were both

He'd got tickets from his friend to arrange his Hockey game in New York. And it was my first ever game that I've been to and last ever too. And we were sitting there in the stands just talking about like what were we gonna do to survive? And I realized at that point that if I truly wanted to serve and create content that I really believed in

I had to think about business. Yeah. And that if I really wanted this message to last in a sustainable way, I had to think about business. And so what we did was I started to think about businesses that I truly believed would Help serve the audience that we had. Yeah. One of the biggest requests that I would get from my audience was, Jay, I want you to coach me. I wanted you to coach me. I was a certified coach.

I was a certified life coach and meditation coach. And I'd focused on purpose and I would get I would get thousands of messages every day on Facebook and Instagram DM saying, Jay, I want you to coach me. Right. So the first thing we decided to launch was my genius coaching community. And this program is a dedicated monthly coaching program where we have thousands of people from over a hundred and forty countries in the world now. That come together every single week. Where I'm delivering a workshop.

on a theme around physical, financial, mental, emotional, or spiritual well being. And so that community has now been running for three years. Like I said, we have thousands of members from over 140 countries. And it's a paid program. And we've seen phenomenal results. People find that their happiness increases just from ninety days of being inside the program. And we've done all this research and studies on it now, and it's been one of my favorite things to do. So you you have, I mean, essentially and it sounds actually a little bit like Logic or Rick Steves in that You've got videos, and your videos are free content. And I have to assume that that probably isn't driving most of your revenue, right? But it's

And I might be wrong, but I'm I'm what I'm what I'm assuming is that The videos Those that's content that you know, may be a lost leader, may not make a whole lot, but that doesn't matter because You also have the coaching.

And then The book et cetera that That drive The revenue that uh enables you to have a team around you. Absolutely. So we I set it up like this. I realized that I had

What I call entertainment. Ventures that are there to entertain, serve, and are free. to the audience. And then we had educational programs that helped anyone who wanted to go a step further, go further with us. So in the entertainment space, we have my videos that are obviously absolutely free. We create Three new videos a week. We had my podcast on purpose, which is obviously absolutely free, that launched in 2019.

And then we have my book. Now of course the book's not free, but but the book also sits in the entertainment part of being available to everyone. And on the education side, we have my genius community. We have my courses, and last year we launched my certification school. Right. So last year we spent a year investing in building a fully global accredited certified life coaching school. And our program now in just the first nine months of launching, we've had a thousand people that have signed up. to go off and become life coaches with us.

and serve humanity because I realized that I couldn't extend myself But I could share what I've learned and my expertise with others, so it's been so fulfilling. I mean it's so remarkable because What? Six, seven years ago you were like

In your parents' house. kind of trying to figure it out. And Seven years later. here you are with a real robust business, right? I mean

There is a pretty big difference between life as a monk in an ashram. and life as as an as an internet or social media star. And I don't I think that's an incredible achievement. But I wonder, I mean How how are you able to

Live your life. like a monk as as best you can, but also meet the demands that come with All of these things that you do. Yeah, and the answer is I I get it wrong all the time. Yeah. I I I I d I'm not perfect and and uh I m make mistakes all the time and that's why I wrote the book called Think Like a Monk, Not Live Like a Monk.

Because I don't live like a monk anymore. I'm married. I have businesses, I'm an entrepreneur, I live in a home, I don't sleep on the floor anymore. And and I don't believe I want to encourage anyone or in myself believe that people should live like monks. But when I encourage people to think like monks

I encourage us to think about why we do what we do and the intention behind it. Yeah. And for me I realised as you just heard me share that When I started the businesses and everything, it was to realize that if we wanted to continue to make an impact in the world. We needed to be more organized. And there's a beautiful statement that I love sharing from Martin Luther King, which really underpins how I

Think about this question that you've shared. Those who love peace need to learn to organize themselves. As well as those who love war. And to me that's what's missing is that often spiritual teachers, guides

Uh people who have messages, people have ideas. uh have not been organized or strategic or focused in their sharing. And and that means that we can't really get it into people's lives in a practical, accessible, relevant way. And so to me, I've had to become everything I don't In in order to

Or give give it as far as I can give it. And so for me The way I still try and think like a monk is I have my morning routine. So I still meditate for two hours a day, every single morning. I wake up at six, I don't wake up at four. And that dedication in my morning practice, I'm reading uh the same spiritual text that I read. I'm reading for at least

thirty minutes every single day to dive deeply into them. So I've set morning routines up. That are so similar to what I lived as a monk. Did I still experience it? And then every year in January, this is the first year In eight years that I haven't gone

Because of Covid, every year I go and live in the monastery for two weeks to four weeks. Every year still. To live with the monks again, to reconnect with them and to re-ground myself. And so, like I said, I make plenty of mistakes. I'm I'm I'm not a monk at all anymore. But these are some of the practice that I've held on to to help me continue to think like a monk. I think and you talk about routine in your book, um, and I think routine is so crucial. It is so important. It's so hard.

um for so many of us, but I think that routine is essential. You know, for for me The hardest day of the week in my family. is Saturday. And it's not hard for me, it's not hard for my wife. It's hard for my kids because we don't allow any screens on Saturday. We we just pick Saturday as a random day. So We take our screens, we lock them up on Friday night, and we only take them out on Sunday morning.

And that means that my children who are nine and twelve don't get to be on their screens and They're used to it now. It's been a year. But they really dread it and they hate it. J

I think about Saturday. Starting on Monday. Starting on Sunday, I think about that day the entire week because I cherish it so much that I have forced Our family. to live like a pre internet pre-cell phone family.

And it is a gift. It's it's the greatest gift that I've given to myself this year. I love that. That is I I mean, that is absolutely beautiful and I don't have kids yet, but I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna be calling you up for all your tips and advice because I love that. And in my home what we've done is with me and my wife is we have no technology

zones and no technology times in our home. So we believe that at the dining table and in the bedroom that's not the space for technology. And then after we had dinner. And then before we've meditated and worked out in the morning, we don't look at our phones. So we set up that routine. So the first time I look at my phone on any given day is eight fifteen AM, which is after I've completed my meditation, even though I'm up at six. And so drawing those boundaries. have really helped me have a clear

baseline as to how to have that no technology time. And and similarly to you, like that's really helped me in not being sucked in and and not being plugged in all the time. Jay, we have a lot of questions and I wanna get to a few of them before we um before we say goodnight. Um this is a question from Leah

Orlea, and I hope one of those pronunciations is right. Leah Orlea asks, it's been a tough year for for many people, including entrepreneurs. and it's looking like it's gonna be uh another difficult few months before, you know, normal comes back. How do you suggest people think of this time in our lives? How do you suggest that we contextualize this moment so as not to go into a dark And you've been in dark places.

I've been in dark places. It can be Debitating. How do you suggest people think about this?

moment in their lives to Avoid going into that dark place. Absolutely. Lea uh Thank you for that wonderful question. And What I've realized

For a long time now is that The worst thing that we can do at a tough time is judge ourselves. And so often we put the pressure on ourselves to be the perfect person. The perfect parent, the perfect partner. And that

struggle for perfection leads to no progress and we end up feeling very dissatisfied. And so the first thing is to give up that judgment of yourself, because as soon as you place that judgment on yourself, it's breaking you down. The second thing I'd say Is I've truly found that the times in your life that you think are the worst. Always turn out to be the best if you see them that way. When I look at

the toughest times in my life. The only good thing I did was to say This is gonna be Where everything good comes from.

And when you approach it with that mindset, rather than approaching with the mindset of like this is just a bad time and it's a dark time and it's it's almost like saying, Oh, today's a dark rainy day, which means it's gonna be a terrible day. And you've already predicted the day based on what you've experienced. Or you could say Oh, I'm gonna make today amazing. We're gonna play games indoors, we're gonna go and go outdoors and dance in the rain, whatever we're gonna do, and you get the opportunity. So I would really set that intention. And the third thing I'd say during this time

Is use it to learn something that you've never had time to learn before. Use it to explore and experiment with something that you've never got to do before, because when you come out of it, that will have become a skill and a habit. And then it's gonna be so useful to you and you're going to realise you're gonna look back and be so grateful that you invested this time wisely. Yeah. Thank you, Leah, for that question. I love this question also from Daniel Ferber, and I I can really relate to this question. Daniel asks

What is the best way to deal with Anger. Can you stay happy all of the time and and before you answer that question I wanted to underscore this idea that we all have anger within us. Some people have different levels of it. And it's something that that

I struggle with a lot of people struggle with. We just it's it's sometimes inside of us. How do you deal with anger, Jay? Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, no one's happy all the time. Everyone goes through moods and emotions, including me, no matter how many years I've meditated for and It's it's part of life. It's The only way you won't feel any other emotion apart from happiness is if you do nothing. And even if you do nothing, you still can't be happy all the time. So uh definitely not that. Now with anger.

What I find with every emotion that we experience is that it needs to be embraced and healed. The way I think about anger is look at your anger as experiencing your child being angry. And Daniel, if you're a parent, you'll be able to understand this. If you're not, look at someone else who's with their child. If your child came to you and they were angry.

A parent who's trying to be conscious and aware will recognize that there's something that's causing pain to that child and they don't understand it yet. They would embrace that child and ask them, what's going on? Tell me about it. What's what's really happening with you? And we've got to talk to ourselves in the same way as we talk to our children, as the same way you talk to your nephew, your niece, or a younger person in your life, and go. What is it? Where's that coming from? What's the root of that? And when you start having that conversation with yourself, you start to coach yourself

in anger. So rather than avoiding it or saying, Oh, just breathe or just meditate or just that's not the point. The point is to understand where is it coming from. And so to find space to have that conversation with yourself. To find space to have that Interaction with yourself. is actually what's missing in our lives, and when we do that. We find the root and then we go, Oh, okay, I get it now, I understand it now, just as you would with your child.

Daniel, thank you for that question. Um this is a question from John. Which is such a in an interesting question. John writes that um he also lived as a monk for a few years in a Buddhist a Buddhist monastery. He says, I am still trying to overcome the reluctance to charge people for teaching Ancient teachings. Did you have that reluctance, and if so, how did you make the leap?

I only overcame that very recently and I overcame it realizing that two things. The first thing was that I really do believe in giving away as much freely as possible. As Guy was sharing earlier, my videos, my podcasts, we're creating so much content for the whole world all the time that no one ever has to do anything paid if they don't want to.

But what I realized is that when people paid for something, there was a commitment. Now when you became a monk and when I became a monk, you paid with your time. You paid with your service. We paid by cleaning pots and by farming the land. I'm I'm sure you did similar things. Whereas today when we pay with our money and our time, we're actually more committed. I've seen that in my genius community and in our certification program, people show up, they bring their best energy because they've invested something that they find valuable. And I think that's what's really hit my heart and helped me overcome that. is realizing that you're actually doing a disservice to people By not giving them the opportunity to commit

effectively to a programme or a path. Jay, when you think about it, I mean it it it probably felt like a long time, right? Two thousand thirteen and those first f few months of trying to find work and the frustration of being back in your parents' house But here we are, you know. Seven and a half years later.

And here you are. Do you ever reflect on on that and on that journey and just how Incredible. It is, from where you were then and where you are now in such a short time. Yeah, I I I honestly guy feel like

completely humbled and and grateful every day, just like I felt when you reached out. Because I'm such a such a fan and admirer of your work and You know, I'm I'm friends with people that I used to watch on TV. I'm I'm lucky enough to

connect with people that I admire so deeply in such a personal way. I feel imposter syndrome often. I I have go through so many bouts of feeling like I don't deserve the life I have and uh That I don't belong where I am and that Maybe I'm not

worthy enough and I'm not qualified enough. I feel that way all the time. And and I love that feeling. I actually embrace that feeling just like the anger because it It keeps me being that kid in London that I truly am and all my friends are also still the same. Like the person I talk to the most has been my friend for the last sixteen years. I speak to him every two, three days. He was the best man at my wedding Uh my best friends are all still back in London because we have so much history together and And the best thing, and I remember Robert Downey Junior saying this in an interview.

Uh, and obviously Robert Downey Junior is this This larger than life personality. Right. And he was saying how when he goes walks in at home, his family aren't like Oh my God, it's Iron Man They're like, Oh, do you want to take the trash out and maybe Take the cap, you know, out. And and you know, it's I think the beauty of of life is that when you're surrounded by a I have an amazing wife

Parents that I love, my sister The people in my life treat me no differently. That's that's a blessing too of to be always be surrounded by people who Want to keep you humble. And the best part about all of it. is my teachers. So my monk teachers, I'll give you this example. When I tell my monk teachers what I'm writing about.

And what I'm sharing And even if I'm coaching someone and I'm saying I'm coaching this person, this is what we're working on This is what they say to me. They said Jay, you're so lucky. That you get to help everyone.

With all of your problems. And and that's their response, you know, and it's it's hearing that from your monk teacher who's seventy years old and and someone that you love and respect so much, it brings you right back down to earth. So I just feel really blessed to have witnessed the journey I'm witnessing. It's just the beginning. Uh I'm right at the beginning of it. I literally believe I've just got started and I'm excited for the next few decades. H how much of what's happened to you so far do you attribute to

how hard you worked and and how strategic you were and how how much do you attribute to luck? I attribute all of it. To My training as a monk. And

my strategic training that I got from My parents and then school. I don't Really believe in love. I don't believe in it also karmically, uh, because I'm I'm a believer in the law of karma.

And the law of karma would suggest that we're put into situations where we consistently have a choice. And so That choice then defines what happens next. And although I see many areas of my life as being areas of great fortune and I call it fortune instead of luck Because fortune feels like a blessing. It doesn't feel like to me, and of course it's all semantics and definitions. To me, the word luck feels like chance.

And to me, the word fortune feels like a blessing or a gift. And I would rather live my life feeling that I've been given a gift than that I have had good luck and a good chance at something, and so I feel extremely blessed and fortunate to live the life that I lived and I feel a great sense of responsibility because of it too. Wellness coach Jay Shetty, author of the book Think Like a Monk, and host of the podcast On Purpose. This conversation took place at a virtual live event in March to find out more about NPR's virtual live events. Visit NPR Presents.

Dor. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you're not a subscriber, please do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to write to us, our email address is hibt at npr.org. This episode was produced by JC Howard with music composed by Raptine Arablui. Links also to Janet U Jong Li, Liz Metzger, Faris Safari, Dereth Gales, Bruce Grant, El Manion, Gianna Capadona, John Isabella. Julia Carney, Niva Grant.

and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. This is NPR.

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