#323: Tim Ferriss Goes to Maximum Security Prison

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Check it out. Hello, ladies and gentlemen, this is Tim Ferris and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. My job is usually to deconstruct world class performers from different industries and sectors, military entertainment, business, and so on. to tease out habits and routines from people who have made seemingly

This episode is Very different. And my hope is that it still provides learning lessons. and takeaways and helps you also to develop

Skills like empathy. This came about because I interviewed a woman named Kat Hoke on this podcast. She is the founder of something called Defy Ventures, which uses entrepreneurship and job training to reduce Recidivism. Among prison populations. And

She creates what she would call entrepreneurs in training. E ITs and inmates, if you want to call them that, are encouraged to use this as a new label for self identification. And it's been very, very successful. When I spoke to her on this podcast, I promised that I would visit a prison with her. And that's exactly what I ended up doing several weeks ago. I visited a maximum security prison to experience the program that she started.

I struggled with trying to do this introduction several times, so I'm just gonna run with it and it's going to perhaps bounce around. A bit. It was a very, very emotional trip and I thought I would actually borrow from my friend Doctor Peter Tia who also attended. uh and recruited a number of people to go uh alongside him. And he sent this out to his newsletter and uh I'm gonna abridge just a little bit. This week Tim Barris and I recruit a few friends to visit Kern State Prison, K E R N level four, I e Max security.

And the background then goes into how Defive Ventures has done work inside prisons like Kern and Pelican Bay. He goes on to say Cat is one of the most remarkable souls on this planet, and nothing could prepare me for what we experienced at Kern this week. rather than try to explain in an email, I'll eventually discuss this in depth on a podcast. And these are Peter's words. Again, many of the men came up to us as we were leaving with tears in their eyes to thank us for coming and to express their gratitude for the little bit we did. What I don't think they will ever understand is that they gave us infinitely more than we can give them. I cannot explain with words what it feels like to embrace a thirty-two year old man who's been incarcerated since he was thirteen in solitary confinement for twelve of those years.

and admit our most shameful moments in life to each other. So some of you might be listening to this back to Tim now. And wondering what the hell is Tim talking about. And I'm gonna use a statistic that I've heard several times. Someone out there can fact check this, but I believe it's accurate, which is roughly seventy percent of people released from maximum security prisons are back in prison within five years.

And uh this Underscores a number of uh weaknesses And Issues with

number of societal systems that we've put in place. But suffice to say many of the people who are even convicted of murder are going to be released. They're going to be your neighbors. And there is a choice then. rather than just brushing it aside with they should just lock them up and throw away the key, since that's not going to be the case for many folks.

There's a question of whether you want people to be rehabilitated or not. Which type of neighbor having just come out of prison do you want to have? And uh there's there's much more nuance to it, but that's one helpful way to lead into it. And I began looking at programs with good results. And unique approaches. to helping to fundamentally change how people view themselves and the world. Uh, and that is part of what I try to do.

And I learned so much. At current that uh I wanted to dig into it with this podcast, but also To share with you

the f the footage, the audio footage that I recorded from the rare opportunity. to actually sit down with three men on the inside and to talk to them about the mistakes they'd made when they turn things around. what they've done when they slip up, and so on. And it applies to much more than people in prison or people who have committed homicide or armed robbery. I think it applies to everybody.

Uh so I wanted to really paint a picture. of the humanity in people who have done terrible things, no doubt about it. They have suffered the consequences per the rules that we have in the societies that we've built. And

are now attempting and changing their trajectories. And we all have these different points in life when it's important to change direction. So I owe special thanks first and foremost to all the staff and officers at Kern, including Chief Deputy Warren Goss, who helped set up the interview.

I couldn't even bring in an alligator clip because to hold into tools for cutting through doors. I'm not making this up. So to have the ability to walk in with cabers and all this was really really incredible and unique. I I again I I knew I was gonna struggle with this intro, but I'm never gonna get it

Quite right. And I wanted to at least explain one exercise we did, which will come back to Peter's words. That was so incredibly powerful, uh speaking to a number of the volunteers like me who were there to help as mentors, listening to different pitches for new businesses and so on that these men hope to launch when they get out of prison to sustain them.

the vast majority of volunteers I spoke with said it was one of the most emotionally powerful experiences. of their entire lives. And uh I'm gonna quote from a fast company piece the that covered Defy. Uh and describes an exercise called Step to the Line.

Which If you have the opportunity to experience, I highly, highly recommend. I cannot recommend it highly enough, in fact. So here we go. I'm quoting from the piece. Quote The idea is this, remember exercise step to the line. Hoke. That's cat.

reads from a list of statements and if they ring true to any of the E. ITs i e the inmates or volunteers, they step forward to the line. And so there are two lines of tape on the ground about

And they run for twenty to thirty feet. uh maybe more because you could have say fifty to a hundred uh EITs and similar number of volunteers. Alright, back to the piece. She'll eventually read several dozen of the statements and the group that steps to the line each time is different. Uh this piece w took uh place or was reported at Pelican Bay. Uh

I'm gonna cut some of it up. So she begins with Statements designed to loosen folks up. I was a class clown. people step forward or not. I'm madly in love. I'm madly in love with burritos, ha ha ha. So people loosen up. And this is important in any type of exercise or interview. Then she moves on to the harder stuff. I've had my heart broken. Uh again, this is from a fast comedy piece. Everyone in the room steps to the line except one E. IT. I dropped out of high school. Almost every EIT steps forward with just one of the volunteers. I've been in a fight to prove myself.

All but three of the EITs move forward. And then it's time for the really deep stuff. I grew up in poverty. My mom or dad has been to prison. At least one of my parents abused drugs or alcohol. I was born to a teenage mother. I became a teenage parent myself. These are all separate questions and people step to the line or step back from the line. Uh and and pulling back just for a second to my experience, there are other questions that really

We're a kind of a donkey kick to the psyche because uh uh they were considerations I'd never made before, uh, such as And I'm paraphrasing here, but I grew up in a home with fewer than twenty five books. out of the volunteers, everyone stepped forward to the line of the ET's Two or three.

Right. Back to the piece. Watching Hoke and the E T as you begin to understand the life stories of the people in the room Just by how many stepped a line or how many did so again and again. My parents tuck me into bed and told me I was loved. uh few of the EIT step forward. Violence took place in my home growing up. Violence took place against me growing up Uh when I was eighteen I thought I wouldn't make it to twenty one.

And it goes on and on. Uh not forgiving others is hurting me. And almost everybody is gonna step forward, at least during my experience that was the case. And there are others, such as have you ever sat behind the wheel of a car while feeling the effects of alcohol? almost everybody's gonna step forward. And then I have been convicted. Of

Driving while drunk. uh and so on and so forth. And then you see how circumstances, certainly free will and bad decision, but also circumstances have led us all to where we are. And that doesn't absolve anybody in prison of the things that they did, but it does give you an appreciation for how things could have turned out differently had a handful of circumstances been different. Uh for even the volunteers. And I know this intro is running long. Please bear with me. Uh

So This interview talking with these three men was really a profound experience for me. And uh you can see the hope. in these men that is created

when they have an opportunity Two Rebuild. and redefine themselves. Uh I was very, very impressed and surprised uh by a lot of what I saw. Some incredible artwork.

Uh and some incredibly well spoken people. And when they take ownership of their past and are going to be getting out of prison, the question comes back to you yet again. Who do you want back in society? A rehabilitated person Or not. I'm gonna mention two more things and we're gonna jump into the interview. If people want to go to prison and have this type of experience. Cat is still bringing people and now has five more prison trips lined up. You can email admin at cathoe.com, C A T H O K E dot com. If interested, there are also other groups doing this type of work and making an impact, like the Anti Recidivism Coalition, ARC, and you can find that at antirecidivism.org

Uh and I wanted to just Mention one more thing. And uh this was sent to me, which is quite difficult through uh I'm imagining two or three different intermediaries uh by one of the men who Uh I

Interviewed. Yeah. And it was a follow up on one of the questions that I had sent. So this is a message from uh Jason who was interviewed. And uh This is what he sent through the proper channels to get to me.

Quote, during the interview, Tim asked us a very important question that we feel was perhaps the most important one of all. He asked how we handle setbacks or slip ups and what we tell people who make mistakes along the way. If not, I tried. It is unrealistic to think that a person could make drastic changes in their life and chart a new trajectory and then execute without failure. Two steps forward, one step back is not uncommon. To that I've told others and still say that the key lies in not allowing oneself to become discouraged to the point of a total regression. Note the failure simply as a result that didn't get you to your objective, and then tweak your strategy accordingly. Try, try again. It is often stated that those who are most successful in life are also really good at dealing with failure. We should use them as role models and view it as they do. It's simply feedback that we can use to discern how our plan is working. This is easier said than done, but it's been done many times over. Good luck and take heart because the best is yet to come. So this is what Jason would say.

who has backslid and that could be say you're trying to lose weight. And then you end up eating a box of cookies. It could be that you quit smoking and you have a few drinks and Much to your later regret and shame that you pick up a cigarette. Could be any number of things.

Uh but y you'll find a lot of shared humanity in this conversation. And There few uh quick notes. The shoe is solitary confinement. Uh we initially only had twenty minutes allowed for this, and then there was a bus malfunction for another group arriving, so I was able to stretch it out quite a bit. I also realized after the fact that I shouldn't have asked about specific gang names because there can be violent consequences. Uh so I bleeped out one mention of that. And with that very, very long

introduction out of the way. Thank you guys for the patience. Please enjoy This conversation a very rare opportunity behind the wall in a maximum security prison to chat with three men about their life stories. Yeah. Alright guys, so we're sitting here in the is this the visitation center? Sitting at uh what looks like a I guess a a half circle table.

And it's my first time in a prison. We are in a maximum security prison. And I was hoping maybe we could start, I know time is short, just on a quick round of introductions, just one at a time, saying name it could be first name, full name, and where you're from and how you ended up in Prison. Oh, my name is uh Jason Holland. I'm forty one years old.

Uh When I was a teenager I was Living a reckless, misguided youth. Or actually I should say wayward youth, because I had to take responsibility for my actions, but um I was making some decisions that clearly weren't good in my life and eventually they resulted in me taking someone's life. And at nineteen I was sentenced to life without for uh parole.

And I've been in prison ever since. Thank you, sir. Tim. Welcome to prison.

Thank you. My name is Ian Via Toro. I'm uh thirty seven years old. I've been uh incarcerated for the past ten years. Uh I am uh serving a sentence for two counts of armed robbery. Firearm. Deadly weapon. Uh

Unfortunately I went through a really bad divorce. in two thousand six. I think that was perhaps the the significant event that kinda led me here, um at Incopo. In fact I made all the right wrong decisions and uh I uh

made some very poor choices obviously. I gravitated back to uh you know, the crow that I used to run with when I was much, much younger. And um I'm here now. And uh Trying to try to try to make the best of uh of who I am now, basically.

My name is Brandon. When I was twenty one I was Incarcerated for murder. I'm serving life without parole. When I was younger I had some real issues socially reacting, uh interacting with people. It caused me to sort of compartmentalize my life among groups of people. and it took an enormous amount of emotional energy to ups uh uphold that And as it started to fall apart and I became desperate to latch on to these people, it led me to make some really, really bad choices.

And as a result I've been incarcerated for the last thirteen years in May. Thank you guys. So I I mean the question really in my mind is as I'm getting educated here, it's my first time, like I mentioned, kind of on the other side of the walls. uh is What what were the

the moments or the conversations That led you guys to want to Right, because there are a lot of people here who don't choose. To change the path.

Right. And uh there's just recently some violence here and I understand the politics and sort of gang orders and so on here, uh can be really complex. I don't even pretend to understand it, but like in in in your case is you've chosen to try to build in a different direction.

Uh whoever wants to go first, um could just Let me know. What catalyze that? Okay, that's a very good question. Um I had been incarcerated for about nineteen years.

I was validated in the shoe. as a Shu is the that's the lockdown unit uh security housing unit. And I was validated as a prison gang associate. At that point I was housed in a deep seg section. What gang were you part of? Mm-hmm.

In prison. In this world I had a lot of prestige. I had a lot of power. And after nineteen years I was sitting in there shoe. And I realized even though I had this much prestige and this much power, I was living an empty life.

It was meaningless. And that was isolation. Were you by yourself? Yes. I was by myself at that point. And One day a friend came to me. And he was telling me about

Changes that were happening in the law and He said look, if you ever want to get out of the shoe. You need to start making some decisions. And I didn't want to take ownership.

And so I was arguing with them. I was blaming everyone else. And then he said something that I couldn't argue with. He said, Look, whether you realize it or not And at that point.

I couldn't Are you with that? And so I had to come to terms with that and I had to start making some real decisions and that was a big moment for me. And that was a friend on the inside here? No, that was actually a friend from the outside. Mm. Yes. And uh he kinda hit it he hit me with the hard truth.

And then I started realizing what do I want from my life where I started asking myself the strong questions and I had to start making some strong decisions and from there it's been a path of growth. What were what were some of the first Or the first kind of decision that you made that was different from how you would have made decisions in the past? Well, first I had to start taking responsibility. I had to start realizing that I was the one that was creating my circumstances. It was no one else. And then

If I wanted to change things in my life, what were the decisions I had to make? And so the first thing to do was just get away from what I'd been accepting for myself and that's being involved with gangs and criminal activities. And so Once I disassociated And left and it was from there, what do I do now? And it was just a matter of the year.

Reconstructing my identity and finding new values. You then move from one section. No it was a different prison. Got it. And were you then you were moved to a different

Thank you. So uh for me Uh God, what I guess what I can I can start in two thousand thirteen

Uh back then I was a member of a prison gang here. Um And For the most part, you know, I've throughout my prison career, as we call it uh assimilated completely the my environment.

I um Which gang was that? I'd rather not say. Yeah, okay. Uh I I I was part of the problem here, clearly. And I remember I think the moment that kinda changed everything changed for me was uh I was assigned to education.

And education, just re regular uh A B one, A B two, A B three, just regular adult uh basic education. I was I was assigned there so that I can eventually earn my G D. and I you know was sitting in the back doing all the things that I shouldn't be doing with the homies And I just I felt tired I got tired of it.

And I I just didn't want to be there anymore. I uh Had you know, two ways of going about it, to get out of education.

Uh at least that's what I thought at the time. Take the G D test and that way I I would be able to get out of there. And that's exactly what I did. I took the GED test and I passed it.

I uh showed up about two months later. I w I got called up to receive my certificate. Uh waiting to get my my certificate. Somebody who was ahead of me made a comment about

Uh You know, now going to college. because you know now he will he had a G D, he was a high school graduate and he was going to go to college. But the way that he said it, he was being sarcastic, but He said in a way where someone in the room

with like this look of disgust, disbelief, and it just so happened that at that precise moment he turned and looked at me. And I caught the full force of that look. Uh that discussed. And it angered me.

because back then my mentality was completely different. And I kinda set out To prove from that point forward that you know what? Look at me how you want to look at me.

But I'm gonna prove to you that even a gang member, even someone like me can get a college education. Back then uh the college programs were very, very scarce. Uh it took a moment for me to it took a little while for me to even find, you know, the the the college coordinator on the facility. And I wrote a couple community colleges.

Eventually they they wrote back I got I got it I got into uh into Lassen Community College up north. And I started taking correspondence courses. And So here I am, I'm sitting in a housing unit filled with all my homies because here in this facility they house all the gang members together. uh just to kind of control the violence on the yard.

And You know, after the first year. Here I am, you know, uh knee deep in in college work. studying sociologi, psychology, philosophy And just, you know, really taking it on.

And One day I just kinda looked up and I realized I don't belong here. I was completely out of place. Meaning in the gang environment. In the gang environment. And

You know, for the first time I was able to kind of see the world through a clear lens. So for me was definitely education. And that was uh five years, five years now. And uh I've earned several college degrees. Uh and

You know, it's it's I can honestly say that education truly transformed me. Uh I was still stuck there. And it

in the administration it gave me an opportunity. To change. to really make that transition into who I wanted to be. uh Associate Warden Goss, who's uh at the time was the captain on our facility

uh he gave me that opportunity. So it it wasn't just me wanting to, I needed that help. And fortunately I was able to find that here. And uh you know I've I I it's been a sprint since and I haven't stopped.

Thank you. Uh well so I'm kinda the odd man out in a lot of ways. So I was never in a gang. Uh uh I came in and I was the guy who was going to be used up on the main line. I was the guy they were going to give the knife and say, hey, go get that guy. Do the dirty work as it needed to be done. caught up and washed up and done and done in or whatever, nobody was gonna really worry about it too much.'Cause I wasn't in the mix.

You know, I wasn't in that whole politics side, so I did that exactly once. Can you just elaborate on what that means? So guy came up to me on the yard and he basically said, Hey, this guy, we need to jump on him because he owes money. And I tried to get out of it, but I really didn't have a lot of options because they said we're doing this in about two minutes. I got it. And you were like a free agent. I was a I was not a free agent. I was associated with you. No matter what. I was a free agent who was told you're gonna do this. So I did it. It was it was cowardly. I hate it, right? But I did it. And I ended up in doing a shoe term like

Jason, but much shorter. Right. I got out. I came to another law Mainline yard and they ask me to do it again and I

So they jumped on me instead. So that was fun. Uh I came over here. Uh to S and Y that's the uh when you're not associating with the mainline politics.

So I just kinda figured I would fly under the radar, just gonna do my own thing on my own by myself. And Slowly but surely just started to get into a couple of things, get uh talk to certain people, work uh I wrote a pa article for our newsletter, things like that, and it eventually led to me getting offered a job in the chapel. Which if you'd have told me when I was, say, twenty one, that I'd be working in a chapel, the answer would have been zero because I was twenty one and knew everything and was this militant atheist and blah blah blah.

So the idea was absolutely unheard of, but I was really desperate for something. I needed to have something to do. So I took the job. And I remember having a conversation with my boss, uh Chaplin Cranz, so shout out to the you know the chaplain And he sits me down and he basically says, So tell me tell me about how you look at things. So I gave him this really profound, like thirty minute conversation about how I knew everything and everything was relative and this and that. And I might be paraphrasing this, but he basically sits back and he goes, Wow. That's really stupid. And I reflected on that for a while and he started to systematically over the next few months just like break down every stupid little belief I had.

And slowly but surely started to turn me around. So I give him a lot of credit uh for me kind of Going positive, as it were. And Can I can I pause for one second? Yeah.

thing the biggest teaching that he gave me um was the theory of Uh television. Teleos. Right, so all people have an inherent human dignity. Everybody has a potential. And if everybody has this dignity and this potential, then everybody is valuable, every human life is valuable, we should treat them so.

Uh so this was the basis of a morality that I never had. Everything I thought was relative. If it's good for me, it's good for me. If it's good for you, it's good for you. And that's a bunch of crap. That doesn't work. That leads to a very bad place. So this whole concept now and and really driving it home and it was it's been sixteen months in the making so far. But that for me has been the pivotal thing is just understanding concepts of morality, going from an atheist to a guy who's somewhat of an odd agnostic, who acknowledges there's a higher power but doesn't know what it is yet. So for me that's a huge shift.

And so I credit that to me getting into the things that I recognize as enforcing morality or enforcing human dignity and the idea that everybody is valuable. Thank you. So I'd love to hear from you, Jason. Uh basically the same question. I mean like how how has

The way you looked at the world. changed or what beliefs or habits have really helped to Keep you on the A better path. Or to help you to feel like you're building towards something.

Okay, very good question. Um So when I first left the shoe And I was going through this process of basically reconstructing my identity because I had this persona before and now it's gone. Right. Yeah, I did. And um so I come over here and I didn't really know what to do. I started reinvesting in my education because I didn't know really what to do. I started getting into these groups and then what happened was I was really lucky I came to this yard.

And I met these guys and I started working around them. And then I started getting introduced to the some of the same ideas. How did you get human dignity Yeah. It was just kind of on the yard, but they knew I was coming. They knew that my um my brother and I were coming here and so we kinda make a splash where we go and we got introduced one way or another and eventually I started working with them. And I saw what they were doing, what they were doing here with the program and the pioneer and all these different things, these interesting things.

And at this point I started changing my own. My whole perspective around and mostly the biggest thing for me was I knew that if I wanted I knew what I didn't want. And I knew I had to get rid of criminality. I knew I had to get stop cutting corners. And then w like I said, when I started working with them and started getting introduced to the idea that of human dignity

So human dignity. Doing things in the right way. Not doing it in a criminal way. And from there my whole perception started changing on how I approach people, how I approach situations Um how I identify options.

So it sounds like the three of you spending time together has I mean I'm I maybe I'm taking it just got a one degree further than what I'm hearing, but it seems like that's been Important. Absolutely. Crucial. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh it's we're we're a team here. We've kind of

You know, through all the things that we we've been able to accomplish here on this facility, we've been able to kinda form a a community of sorts, and it it's it's really a team effort up front. I know that For me, you know, even the whole change process, you know, it was a process. Uh I had to first come to that realization that I can do better than I could be better. Uh I had to accept it.

And I had to believe it. And that's what we try to get guys to do on the facility on the yard is believe it. You know, believe in yourself. Believe that you can be better, you can do better. How do you convince them of that? It's like when you approach somebody for the first time A, how do you choose the person you approach? And then

What do you say? And I mean anybody can can hop in. Uh It takes uh one of the one of the things is is being in the right place at the right time. Um we have self-taught and picked up and question other people about everything from effective communication techniques to ways of getting people over twisted values. I mean why do you guys do it? Mm.

because I I speaking for myself, just because I'm a masochist and it needs to be done. Yeah. Uh when I look out At some people uh here or anywhere else for that matter. You watch the news, you watch TV, any of it.

It just sometimes feels like people are skin and bones. You know, there's they need some they need to be fleshed out a little. And me too. You know, I'm I'm just as bad, but I think that uh It's it's a communal thing. Everybody needs to be pitching in because nobody no man is an island. Yeah. Uh so we just need to be there, we need to be available, we need to be intentional, we need to really try to

help everybody elevate themselves because uh If we humanize everyone, we humanize ourselves. And if we cut people down, we're just cutting ourselves down too. And it applies here in on steroids. It seems like everything is magnified here. Uh everybody here is a little extreme in some ways.

Yeah. Or it's gonna go on. Just trying to have the right exchanges and interactions with them. Whereas another guy.

Approaches or expressions or concepts that you've seen help redirect people. Like when you see people click. Um any any of you could jump in on these. I think I think the biggest thing and for me

It's I've been there, so I know what it feels like. to not have hope And you have purpose. There are a lot of guys in here who are lacking those two things. And I know what it feels like. Hope and purpose. And they're it's very, very powerful.

Uh and That's what we try to give. You know, uh whether it's through some sort of program or whether it's just a one on one interaction with the program look like well just for example defy. Uh the Five Ventures has been amazing on this facility because it's it's a holistic more holistic, it takes a holistic approach. It's not just entrepreneurship training, it's it teaches character development, it brings you closer to your family and it really gets you thinking about who you are. And who you can be most importantly.

And it's it's it's been h hugely successful here because of it. I would add in to empowerment. Because I think a lot of the guys that we interact with, and myself included, for a long time, I just didn't recognize my potential or think that I really had any worth investing in. And I think that a lot of these guys feel that way. And a big part of what we do is we engage that. And we challenge them to look at their potential and actually rise to it. And I think that we do that to best that we can that we're currently able to do and we're trying to get better at it.

I think uh one of your s I mean the standard approach like on the like institutionalized kind of formal level. of any of these things is your program that you would have defy um AA uh any of these groups. You have content, some sort of accredited content, right? So there's a curriculum, there is a book, there is a time honored, there's twelve steps, Oxford principals, you have a dosage rate.

These guys will go to this group for X number of hours every week. over a course of a year that's X number of hours. And then you have motivation. and you get a result. And the result could be something like twenty-two percent r reduction in recidivism for substance abuse. Something, right?

The trick is the the hard one to quantify is the motivation. Right. Right. So that's where the hope and the purpose come in. Because a guy can sit in a chair All day long. A guy can answer questions on a work sheet all day long. But unless he has the hope, unless he has the need for a purpose, unless he has the family begging him to get better, unless he has his buddy that he's watched move on and is now like waiting for him to catch up, right, you need to create this sense of people

Uh that you can uh rely on and that are relying on you in some sense and the realization that you're part of a bigger community. that sort of step in maturity, that that growing up process. Because otherwise the entire formula is just gonna fall apart. Yeah. No, it's so true. I mean you can take you can take the content and shove it down someone's throat. You can make them sit in the chair, but if

If there mentally sort of teleporting to a different place. And Like you said, the the motivation is there. Just because it's harder to quantify doesn't make it any less important. Exactly.

And that's why here, especially on this facility, uh, you know, we we say that time and again, what we're trying to do here on this facility is we're trying we're trying to create change but from the inside out. Rather than outside in. Because you can throw so many programs at people just like you said. So much curriculum that You know, half of it probably won't stick.

If that. So It's it's a pr it's a process. It's an internal process. It's an individual process because you know, just like out there in society. Everyone in here, even though there are some com commonalities Everyone's different. They've been through different experiences that have led them to be who they are.

So it's uh It's hard work, but it it it works. Uh you know, giving a person hope, giving a p a person purpose. Uh Especially here we've we've been able to kinda track uh the progress of individuals who actually participate in our rehabilitative programs, educational programs, just like right now I can let you know, I can tell you that

If you participate in a program the inmates that participate in the program Uh That person is three times less likely to s receive a rules violation report. than someone who doesn't. So it definitely does change something.

And if you look at the people who have uh As uh I think Jason, maybe you were mentioning some people You kind of deliver the sermon to, right? I mean you you communicate with and then they fall off the rails. And then other people you work on them for a year.

You maybe suspect they won't. actually take to it and then they do. Uh are there any patterns that you guys have seen in terms of Say what what people fail to understand or pay attention to that leads them to fall off the rails? Is there any anything that really

Sticks out. As A pattern where you're like, Man Like damn it, I s I like I should have seen it because we've seen this seventeen times before or two hundred times before. I mean I don't know how many people you guys are communicating with because this is what do you have fifteen hundred people or something like that in this? We have in this facility we can get up to one thousand.

Yeah, give give or take. As far as pat I mean for my money and I can't speak for you guys, right I mean everybody is really different. Uh And that's kinda the reason

At least for me, I'm Even if a guy lets me down seventeen times out of eighteen, that eighteen time it might just click because I mean there are there are commonalities usually the The impetus to change is something like uh an event where his family shows up. I've seen that a lot.

Um but Some people There's like another group of people that I think just Eventually they hit this point where they're just tired. and they just have this realization one late night and they're just sitting there and they say, I can't do this anymore.

And If you happen to show up at that moment, I think you can lead them back into the light. But if you're not there then in there then you've probably missed your window. So I'm not sure that it's Like commonalities in

circumstances so much as it's these different circumstances lead to change and if you're lucky to get there, you get there. You know, uh,'cause it really is a time and place thing, at least in my experience. I I haven't personally identified any You know, hard patterns. I can't say that

the times when I felt like it was starting to sink in is If I was dealing with a guy who was constantly entertaining the wrong conversations and the wrong company on the yard and you you can tell. Well you know. And then suddenly I had this conversation with um And out of nowhere it's really like a mature conversation. And he's talking about wanting something different.

And then the next time I see him he's actually acting, that's a good indication that he's headed in the right direction. And then if from there I think One of the things we've tried to implement is Repeated exposure. you know, going back to that guy, going back to him and just working on him, encouraging him and hoping that he stays along on the right path.

Yeah. So I've c I have a question for you, Jason, because you're you're mentioning you and your brother coming and people knew you guys were coming and that you had uh some stature within this gang that you were once part of. No this is I I'm I'm I mean I'm really curious about this because I've known people who have spent time in prison. S very, very close friends of mine.

And uh people have had all sorts of different types of um Unhealthy coping. Mm-hmm. Um but at a given point in time in their life

Some of those behaviors like served a purpose for them, or they thought it did, right? To escape from something or to survive something. And uh what what I'm curious to know and sometimes within that It's like you could throw it all out, but maybe there's like a kernel of something that you develop that can be applied in a good way. So what I'm really curious about is like you were Sounds like had some type of leadership position or you were somewhat high in the the pyramid and this gang. Is there anything that you were good at then?

that is translated to you being better at having these types of conversations or recruiting people to Yeah, recruiting's the wrong word, but converting people to look at things differently. Do you do you think there's any common ground there? Networking. Networking. Yeah, I was good at networking and I'm generally good at people and interacting with them. Generally. Not always. No one no one communicates perfectly all the time, right? Right. But

You know One of my strong suits. Yeah. What do you think and maybe these I mean these guys could comment on it also, but like and maybe it's easier from the outside looking in, but like what makes you good at What are some of the skills that that make you or or approaches that make you

Better than most, you think. I can see you're like bright red. It's okay, I got you, but um. Jason. Right. And I knew of Jason. I I never knew Jason until here. And now I I know Jason, but I knew of Jason before.

Um One of the things about Jason was that He was True to his word. integrity.

Right, I'll give him that. Now what his word was at the time, you know, what that meant, you know, was I'm gonna do something. He's gonna do it, right? Um

That he's brought that with him though. He has a very strong sense of integrity and The values have changed with it. Right. So the thing about Jason is if he says he's going to show up to

Right. He'll not only show up, he'll probably give you a day and a time and then be up all night long if he missed it and beating himself up about it and then drag one of us along with him to make sure he gets into the building to talk to that guy the next day first opportunity. Right? And that's something that I think he was kind of known for before. And now he's being known for it again in a very good way because The new Jason is, in my opinion, a market improvement.

Very very disciplined, very dependent. Yeah, so the ability to keep promises. But the the content of those promises has changed. The values underlying. Doing my best. Work in progress. So w uh where would you guys Like to be saying.

Three years from now. So I actually have the opportunity uh towards the end of the year to uh transfer out to an MCRP which is a male community reentry program.

And what that is is I would basically serve the remainder of my term in a facility on the streets wearing an ankle monitor. Uh where I'll where I'll have the opportunity to actually uh gain employment, work and save towards that day when I'm actually paroled. But in the meantime We are we actually started a podcast here on our facility, Kern Valley one eighty. I thought that's what we were doing right now. It was supposed to be. Coming up.

we we plan at least to kind of Use that platform. to not only show the guys in here what it's like transitioning back out to society step by step But also kinda show society what it's like. Being in here.

Uh For me at least I wanna show the guy in here, I wanna show the guys look. This is what I did. While I was incarcerated, while I was still behind the fence, behind the wall.

And This is where I am now. This these are the struggles, these are difficulties, the challenges that I'm facing. So even though you're you can prepare yourself as much as as as as as you can it there are still gonna be some challenges. So you should prepare. Absolutely. So hopefully we're we're able to do that through the podcast.

And I you know the in the next three years I I see myself heavily involved in some sort of organization that gives back to this particular community. For sure.

Thank you. Well currently I'm serving life without parole. So I just hope that

Wherever I am at. Let's say a law changes and I'm somehow miraculously You know uh release to society, then I hope to be doing something good with uh rehabilitation. And either way, if I'm still incarcerated, I'm hoping to be doing something that's meaningful towards rehabilitation and the rehabilitation effort. What do you what do you personally find most meaningful? I mean, this is a really important concept.

Why I mean it's really, really important.'Cause I think as you guys have noted, it's like without the Without a purpose, without the meaning. It's very difficult to to survive as a human in any environment, but I think uh particularly in an environment like this. So what what keeps you going and what would you if w

Say three years from now, let's say you're still Inside. What would make you look back with some pride on the The three years.

Well Again, any time That you see the light go off. for the guy who has been struggling. Is where I was.

And he starts taking control or more responsibility for his life and starts learning tools. To flourish. and lead a stable and healthy life, I think that's a win.

And if we can continue to get better and better at our process of approaching it. And helping more and more people, that's that's purpose for me. So

Sir, I think so. What what are are there any particular tools uh certainly define we're familiar with Defy and have a high opinion of Defy. Are there any other tools that you found helpful? to

This isn't the best term, but like a gateway drug. If you're trying you know, if you're trying to get somebody who's gonna be a little bit more than a little And you want to offer them. one thing to kinda nudge them

Do you have any favourites or anything that's particularly Effective that you found? Well the most the thing that's I think's been most most effective for me Has been

Asking the right questions. So that they can get to the right answers. And So if you're asking the right inquiry And Bradman Pastor Kranz earlier.

He has a method of When we take a position on something, he asked his questions to where Our position is either exposed For being vulnerable or being solid. And I think that if you can do that in the right way to people, then they are forced to come to their own conclusions about whether or not they're coming from the wr the right starting place or not.

And so Whether that's a tool or a technique. Yeah, t to me that's been a really effective thing. Any any Any questions you could share?

Well. Yeah. I don't want to keep you on the spot. Like anybody can answer this, but like are there any particular questions that you guys use? I I obsess over questions, because I really think. that whether it's interacting with someone else or interacting with yourself, right? Asking yourself the right questions. Which you guys are helping them to do. So the pastor, uh your chaplin currency is a military man. Right. So he looks at things

From that uh viewpoint a lot when it comes to developing an an idea. So we go to him, you know, the idea Fairy Lands on the shoulder and gives us some crackpot idea, and we go in there and we say, hey, we got this really great idea, let's do XYZ. And he'll start running it through sort of a There will be the practical questions, there'll be the purpose driven questions, there'll be you know who's going to run it. Where are you going to get the resources? Who is going to staff this? What is the idea? And then it will kind of segue into what are you trying to do? What is the point? Is what you are doing tackling a symptom? Is what you are doing tackling the problem? Uh he'll really get into I mean it's a multi level like

Stress tests. But uh he also I think what you're also get what Jason is also getting at is the sort of self leadership model, too. Right. So any time something pops up, you should be asking yourself the questions too, so that you know where you stand. Otherwise it's too easy to knock you down.

you have to have asked yourself the questions, then once you have the idea in mind, then you need to ask the questions about the idea. And that if it stands up to both those stress tests, I think you're Pretty good shape. Uh at least considering a lot of the other stuff that goes on sometimes. And for me it's it's it's a lot simpler, really, when it comes down to it. I I ask myself and I ask others, is it the right thing to do? Uh

absent the environment, the situation, is it the right thing to do? And that's basically what it boils down to, you know, with me. It's you know it's Is what I'm about to do the right thing. Is it is it right for me, is it right for everyone else involved? And that's kind of the question that I always come up, you know, and and ask somebody when I see they're getting ready to stray or they're getting ready to make the wrong decisions. It's

Is it the right thing to do? And if they they think that it is, then I question them on it. Why do you think that's the right thing? And I just kinda try to lead them through that you know those logical steps. Explain to me why you think. putting that metal in that guy is the right thing to do. Because he called you a name. it doesn't make sense at the end of the day. And it's it's it's it's very very basic. But people forget to ask that question sometimes. Well let me jump in on that because this is uh You were talking about

It's all relative. Right. moral relativism, one can almost argue that whatever they want to do is right. Right. story or narrative they've built up for themselves, right? So you had it was two counts of armed robbery?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So right, so the list may be longer, but that's the official. Yeah. Uh At the time. How At the time why did you th why did how would you have explained why you were doing those things?

I don't I I could never justify what I did. Uh but like at the time. Uh I gr like I said before, gravitated back to you know, individuals that I used to I used to hang out with, that I used to run with Uh with being in a gang capacity.

I just kind of I just reverted back to old ways that I had left behind. And uh You know, my judgment was was very clouded and I I just kinda went with the flow, which is what a lot of guys do in here. They just go with the flow. They assimilate this environment, they suck it up, and because it's prison, everything every excuse you'll hear here is it

You'll you're almost always here. It's prison. Because it's prison. Because it's prison. Well just because it's prison it doesn't make it right. And you know back then that's That's what it was. You know, uh

I wasn't in my right mind. No clear judgment. And so your judgment. Is seems clear now. What I'd love to hear from from any of you guys is

How you reca how you have recovered from slipping? Or relapsing. Or when you've had the temptation. Right? Because whether like I know

Alcoholics uh my My best friend growing up unfortunately died of an overdose. It's like I I have Not a lot of first hand experience. But I've I've watched even with let's just say on a very

maybe mundane level. people who are listening to this, they have behaviors and they try to change the behavior, and maybe they succeed for a while and then they slip. And maybe they slip and they stay slipped for a long time. Or not. Yeah.

You guys seem pretty far on the other side at this point. But could you talk about any times when you've either slipped And then had to fix You know, had to come back. Or had the temptation to slip. I think we got a bunch of time. I I got a I got a I got a sticky note here that says the a bus broke down and we have a delay.

I I lead by example. Yeah. So You know, when I when I feel when you know, when the anger seems to get the best of me, I always think You know, if I lead by example, what's that what's that gonna say to uh you know all the other guys? And like I said, it's it's it's teamwork here, you know, with the team. Um

I I I always try to keep that in mind. Really? Right. So you're setting an example whether it's good or bad. Exactly. And and you know, just not too long ago I I lost my cool. And it was it was kind of embarrassing. So let's tell us if we could talk about it. Let's so I I'm uh you know I'm I'm I'm n now known as very level headed. You know, I keep my cool

Uh because I've kinda learned to do that. Uh but you know here in prison we have all sorts of uh personalities, all sorts of uh you know, people with issues and whatnot. And one of uh The worst happen to move in next door to me. And uh look, uh I'm a programmer, man. I I like getting out to my programs on time because, you know, half the time I'm standing in front of that room making sure the guys are, you know, heading in the direction they need to head in. And

You know, this particular individual decided to hold his tray because he He uh felt he didn't get enough food. Um And obviously that turns into a problem because now he has holds so he doesn't release his food. And obviously that's a safety concern. So for the time being they kinda s they kinda close that section down. you know, pending that issue being resolved.

And that made me very upset. But what made me even u more upset was that when they try to reason with him you know and told him, look, if you continue doing this, you're gonna mess up the program for everybody else. And the guy started Yelling, expletives. out the door and basically cussed everybody out. And here I am standing next door In full blues

waiting to come out to run this program. And This guy's over here crying about not having enough food and I kinda lost it. And

he ended up giving up the tray and you know, we had some very unpleasant exchanges and I was pumped up and And I was really, really upset. And I showed up to this to the group and these guys are looking at me like what what the hell happened to you? And um at the corner of his mouth. It was yeah, it w it was it was bad. I was getting uh you know, I f I felt emotionally I was ready to go there. Yeah, right.

Yeah. And and then I you know took You know Took some deep breaths and I told myself, you know what? You have to practice what you preach, man.

And I've done it before, I've never allowed myself to go that far. And um I had to humble myself. You know, when I came back in I went up to the guy's door. Uh fully expecting that door to open, by the way.

And um I apologize to him. And I said, Look, man. I don't know what the issue was if you didn't get enough food. Do do you need do you need some soup? Turns out the guy didn't have anything in his cell. So maybe he was hungry. He was kind of a big guy.

So you know, I I had to humble myself, apologize and kind of, you know, uh uh And uh it worked. The situation was de escalated and you know the next morning it's like, Hey, good morning, buddy. So I I obviously I still keep kept an eye on him for the next week because you know you never know. But um

it it it turned out well. And it's really it's just about practicing what I preach at the end of the day. You know, and and again leading you know leading through example and I can't How would that look if the guy who's preaching, you know, effective communication and Resolving your conflict. in other ways other than you know the physical way. How would it look if I got into a fight?

you know, in in the day room because you know, the guy called me this and called me that and and I went there. It just wouldn't work. Yeah, we have the accountability. Absolutely. Thank you. Well you guys.

Uh I would repeat a lot of what Ian said. I think that at this point We've made a lot of public statements about where we stand on these types of issues, so if we slip up on it, it's it's a pretty big hit, for one thing. Secondly, for me personally, I have to always ask myself, what's the outcome here? Like how does this end? Once it starts.

And so it's just trying to avoid the situation from the get go. Now Regarding a uh a s a scrape of like a violent nature or something, you can't you you you can't possibly take in all the variables that could come with that. Like anything could happen at any given time. But I think that one thing I've tried to Keep in mind is that Every act that I take, I'm trying to reduce the possibility of that.

So every interaction I'm trying to keep it to where it doesn't even go in that direction. Regarding substance abuse I've had a problem with that in the past. And so Again I've had people that are close to me.

that have a severe drug problem and it's created a lot of Anguish for me? And At this point I think I don't know I've created enough mental leverage to stay away from it, but if I ever am tempted again it comes back to what's my outcome here? And

What are the public statements I have made? How much of a hypocrite will that make me, you know, so I just stay away from it, period. Thank you. Uh man. Let's see. I Whereas there's the soft skill, like there's the effective communication way of doing things, and then there's sort of like my way.

Which is uh not that all the time. Although I think I'm getting a little better. Uh so I I snap at people fairly regularly and have to go up afterwards and then like hey, my bad, I suck. Right. Um as far as I've I've never particularly had a substance abuse problem uh myself. Yeah, and that's just an example, right? I I I have an arguing problem and there are times when I get into that sort of concrete thinking thing and even if I know I'm wrong, I'm still gonna argue my point. I mean

That's led to some beefs before uh Although I'm I'm trying to not do that anymore, and that's where I'm kinda picking up from these two guys over here. process or day change when you're trying not to do it. So what do you do to You know, I find that when I think before I say things, it tends to work a lot better. Uh and I know it sounds like kinda silly, but that's I I haven't often done that in the past.

Although I have now, so as long as I have sort of a mental checklist to run through and you know ask myself questions as we go, am I thinking about this clearly? Do I understand what he's saying? Yeah, exactly. So as long as I take a breath before opening my mouth, which is when I usually get in trouble. Um incidents on the yard kind of thing. I mean there there's been times where Uh there was the guy who who clocked me in the face one day out at Yard and I had to walk away from it.

And it was because of something he wrote in our in our newsletter. Let's dig into this. So what did you write in the newsletter and why'd he punch you in the face? That's right. We can always edit it later. There was an incident that took place back in the vocational class. um where a gentleman had gotten heated and somebody had to Step in between it.

And stop him. And This incident led to a conversation later on. Right. Uh because well the guy who had gotten heated had hit the guy who stepped in between him. And the guy who had gotten hit, which was another one of our pioneer newsletter guys, another reporter, another editor, or Madden uh editor.

Um So he had taken the hit and walked away. And we applauded that. We said, Hey look. No, you de escalated it, you you humbled yourself, you took the hit, great job. And uh and uh you have to remember.

In prison if you get hit. That's a bad thing according to prison standards. So that's that's a precedent. Somebody somebody had said, Well, first you get hit in the face, next thing you know people are just coming up and stealing your store. Right. Your store is just your canteen, you know, your your hygiene your food. And I had written this piece about yes, because that's what we're gonna have. We're gonna have roving gangs of marauders hijacking people and stagecoach robberies for their store, and I kinda made light of it. Well, the gentleman who had gotten heated way back in the beginning somehow interpreted this as hey, I was telling people to beat him up on yard and steal his store. So he saw me at yard when I was out there reporting on a football tournament or a soccer tournament.

And took a swing and he he got me. And I had just published I ooh I wanted to get'em. I was seeing red, my my hackles were up. But I was tell myself, I was like, dude, you just wrote this thing about it's okay to walk away from taking a hit. Don't worry about it. You're not a bitch. Right. And I'd done this whole thing and this guy cracked me and was standing there and I had to take a breath and be like

Hey, we're not doing this right here. We're adults. And I had to turn around and walk away, right? Uh And everybody saw it. And I ha I was under I was getting the blues for a while, but then slowly people were like, Yeah, man, don't worry about that guy. It's cool. Pretty hurtful things, man. But that's okay.

I'm used to that. So So how did you how did you feel after that? Were you proud that you did that? Were you like, Man, I should have ripped that fucking guy's face off. I mean, I was I felt bad that I had

Actually that I wrote something that he had interpreted. I should have gone and talked to him beforehand. I should have been like hey dude We're going to write an article about something that happened involving you. And I should have been like is this cool? And I didn't. Yeah. And that was my screw up. And That made me feel bad. And I actually went back and I had talked to the guy a few other times and asked him if he wanted to subscribe to the paper.

And uh that probably wasn't smart. I thought I was giving him a peace offering and he just started kicking the door and yelling at me, so I had to walk away. But I yeah. I I felt bad that I had h I felt I had handled it badly. Yeah, I'd walked away, but I had allowed a situation to happen where this guy was mad enough to hit me. And that was where I screw up. So

I managed to Not turn it into a big deal. Still F up in there somehow. Where would where would you like to be in say three years' time? I mean if like three years from now looking back, you're like, Yeah, I did a really good job or I'm happy with my progress.

I can look at the yard I'm on three years from now. And fifty one percent of the people on that yard, I could be like yes, these are grown up mature adults. And I have some small part in that. Yeah, if some program I helped run or come up with or bring to the yard or some sort of

uh because everything is to that end for me is making people kinda realize their maturity. Fi so fifty one percent just meaning the majority. Yeah, I want a saturation rate that's, you know, fifty one percent, then I know our our product is a success. So many different directions I could go with all this. Because I know some people listening are gonna be like, Wait, they have a podcast? So This is yes, welcome to the Kern Valley one eighty podcast. We're here with Tim Ferriss. W how

How did that come to be and how do you guys record it and what do you talk about? I mean you can I mean so do you do you have You have gear. That do you have a room? Do you w how does how does a podcast come but does it only get distributed among the So so the the leadership here is very progressive. Uh when CDCR

said we're gonna head more towards uh you know rehabilitation the administration, the leadership really took that direction at heart and are following it. Um Absolutely. You know the idea came about uh

I think there there's one there's another podcast on So San Quentin, a lower level much lower level facility. Uh and but you know the things that they talk about there and and not you know talking smack about them, it's more you know average day Uh daily th occurrences on the prison yard type deal. Uh here we're we're I think we're we're creating, we're establishing more than just, you know, uh talking about canteen, talking about the sports in the yard. We're we're

We're really trying to highlight that rehabilitation rehabilitation. Um And you know, we were approached by the administration if we would be interested in doing something like that and we jumped at it. uh it turns out that this this uh this institution has a media room.

Which it v looks very much like a T V studio. They have all the equipment and it's just kinda just kinda sits there because they have no other use for it. So uh you know they've they've allowed us to use uh that room for our podcast we've been able to uh interview our warden which uh here is the first time That has happened. You know, inmates actually interview their warden on a podcast. And uh we were able to interview the CEO founder of Defy Ventures, for example. And you know, we have a long list of of people and now we've interviewed you, sort of. Because that's what we're doing here.

So Oh yeah, yeah. No, we we can't. You guys are welcome to ask me actually you guys can ask me anything you want. But first let me ask you. following up on something that I kinda pass by, is it is this widely available or is it only for

I think it's great. There's actually two versions of it here, because uh like I said, there's video cameras, it is like a T V studio. There will be a like a video podcast version of it available throughout the institution, so that All the facilities here can can watch it and hear it. And then out there for the public it will be what I what I believe just strictly audio podcast through iTunes. Yeah, and you guys are welcome to use this audio. I mean I'll I'm happy to give you guys the audio too, but you sounded like you had a question. I wanted I wanted to ask you. What compelled you to come into a level four maximum security prison and sit down with us?

Yeah. Uh I I think that it's very Common. Whether it's inside or outside for people to separate between us and them.

Or me and others. And When I look at for instance Some of the people I grew up with who were my best friends. Like I mentioned, one died of a fentanyl overdose. Others have been imprisoned and

Just like you were saying, there's this sometimes this almost magical positive window. When someone sees their family or has this dark night of the soul and there's an opportunity for growth. There are also these

Windows that open. Which are opportunities to make really terrible decisions. And circumstances. I'm not saying you don't have personal responsibility. We're all responsible. But at the same time I think it's Uh

I think it is wildly unreasonable for That they could never find themselves in a position if their life had been different, if the if their surroundings and

Friends had been different. Where they would have made terrible decisions. And so I think that my hope in coming here was A to just learn about a new environment and to get to meet people here. Honestly. I mean I just

Mm. I'm very interested in learning as much as I can about like how what what does human nature look like Inside the walls. And not because these humans are necessarily

Intrinsically different from the humans outside. They've ha they have very different stories. Like what does it look like when I intensified and magnified. Does that tell us perhaps something about

ourselves more broadly speaking. Right. And uh also to um Not to say that everyone here should be Completely

forgiven of all the Uh you know, in in some cases Terrible things that that they've done to other people but That

I do think it's possible to have Empathy for the humanity. in each and every person. while still holding them accountable. And that's that's I think that's one of our main goals on our podcast is look, we're not trying to justify anyone's actions, anyone who's here.

You know, mistakes were clearly made. But at the end of the day we want people out there to realise that People in here. Or just people.

Yeah, we're we're humans. Uh you know, we have that label prisoner convict, you know, and People sometimes tend to uh asocii who we are strictly on the crime that we committed.

That maybe that bad day, maybe that bad decision, maybe a series of bad decisions. But At the end of the day we're we're human. Like I've moved I I'm here because I committed a crime. And but I've moved past that.

It's I'm obviously reminded every day when I wake up and I'm still in prison. But I've been able to Forgive myself. And Really

worked on myself in order to someday gain that forgiveness from my victims because there are victims. And You know, I For me at least that's that's what we want to communicate out there. Look, we're just people. Anyone can make mistakes.

Sure there's degrees of mistakes, but Uh You know, it's It's tough. It's tough sometimes when you watch the shows on T V and and you hear the narrative about prisoners and and it's just always all you know, all just the negative.

Yeah. And and the other the another reason that I'm here is Uh You know with With defy.

And really wanna chat with you guys is that I'm Fascinated by why people change, whether it's for the better or for the worse. Like what is that moment? What is that conversation? What does the chaplain say to you? Or ask you, right? Or

What happens in the shoe. Uh, I'm really interested in these tipping points for people and Alright. like to study them because if you study them and you can then figure out like all right This particular tool works really well.

And it seems to work and you spot some type of pattern. I don't think that Uh y if we assume that human nature is human nature, which in the sense that the people inside are not that different from people outside. I think there's a lot to be learned in here they could also be applied outside of here.

Right. And uh I l Not that I like the fact that everything is intensified here, but it's it's in a way very similar. I've spoken with Sebastian Younger who was a war uh well is considered by many to be a war.

journalist, but he's been deployed. Overseas and is His best friend was killed overseas. with uh I guess it was a mortar round. horrible tragedy and he's seen many people killed and in war it the the

You also see the certain aspects of human nature that are just Amplified. Right. And I think that gives you an opportunity to see things that you might not otherwise see and learn things you might not otherwise learn. So Uh but the fact that You guys have made

made a series of bad decisions and have made a series of good decisions. Is Very interesting to me. Right. Um so that's

Part of the reason. Some of the reasons I'm here. Yeah. Um Could I ask you a question? Absolutely.

So One of the things that you do as you were saying, you're trying to basically break it down. They try to figure out what it is that makes a person tick. Right. So

Do you have go to questions? Are you trying to get to the thought process? Are you trying to get to what what is it that you're looking for when you're asking questions? What process are you going through? Yeah, usually I am Following my own Curiosity. Uh so if if if something

If someone has experienced any type of sudden change I'm very interested in why that change took place. So I'll explore that. I might ask someone. if you look back, say, at your business over the last five, ten years, uh w were there any specific decisions you made that you view in retrospect is really critical.

Or Was there anything you said no to? That you were tempted to say yes to the that made all the difference. Right? Was there something you were told you had to do? That everyone told you you should do.

Uh I I like to explore the good decisions, but I also really like to explore how people deal with Uh hardship and failure and darkness. So I I really try to

when I'm talking to anyone No matter how successful they may be. If I'm interviewing Richard Branson or interviewing It really doesn't matter. icon who might be thought of as this perfect superstar. I know they're not no one's perfect. And so I will I will ask them, you know, rather than just going through the highlight reel, we'll talk about the highlights, but I'll say like can you could you take us back? People may listen to this and think that you've got it all figured out. And that you haven't had a little bit of a

Like could you take us to a tough time or a period that you suffered from depression or where you thought It was all over. And Walk us through

What you said to yourself. Walk us through. Who helped you and how they helped you? Like how did you get out of that funk? I'm very interested in that. uh because uh

I think those are the that is when some of the most critical decisions are made. And so it's like if everything's lining up Um it's really easy to be supportive of someone else or supportive of yourself. But when things start going sideways, when maybe you slip, maybe you relapse, maybe Who knows? You're paying too much attention to your business and you're not paying enough attention to your kids and your kids make some really terrible decisions. Like all right, how do you we're all gonna fuck up.

How do you how do you then respond to that fuck up is more interesting. than the question, have you fucked up? Because the answer is obviously yes. The more interesting question to me is like all right. You fucked up. Now what happens? And and so certainly in a different context, but you know, I've I've beaten myself horribly my whole life. I've had a very sort of mixed relationship with myself and have had

uh been very, very uh brutal with myself just in terms of self talk for the majority of my life and I've only in the last few years realized how unproductive And So the way to now

Externally, if you're watching me respond to a mistake, it might look the same as it did five years ago, but what's going on in my head is very different. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so what I try to do then, if I'm interviewing someone Is to Ask them to help. me step into their head.

to see what's going on behind the scenes. Okay. Or If they're afraid, when they're most nervous, right? If they're if they're a championship fighter and they're getting ready for the biggest fight of their life. Like what are they saying? in their head as they're walking out. to the octagon.

Mm-hmm. After months of training and like their entire career is on the line. And they could they could have their head caved in. Like what are they actually saying like in their own head when they're listening to their music walking out? And the these are the types of questions that I've been exploring more and more.

in the last few years because I think that you can you can learn from a real fighter like say you know Tim Kennedy, also a Greenbury Sniper, I mean just an incredible guy. you can take lessons from him and apply it to business. You can take lessons from business and apply it to military in some cases. You can take lessons from chess and apply it to working with people in the yard, I'm sure, uh, in some cases.

And Vice versa. Uh perhaps. So Uh Usually I'm digging

For the internal process. And trying to find phrases or questions or concepts that can be applied to a lot of different things. Okay.

Uh Yeah. Yeah, that that's that'd be my first stab at it. Okay. Something like that. Uh and and also the you know, to dig out the humanity.

So it's Uh To encourage people. to be vulnerable when they can be. uh or to like push to a point where they're at least a little uncomfortable.

I think that's when interesting things happen. Uh not in the sense of pushing yourself closer to say a red line. situation. Not not pushing in that direction, but Uh you know, I I remember

interviewing this woman named uh Brene Brown who's a researcher and she's she's studied a lot related to shame and vulnerability and related topics and uh she said something to me that had a really big impact. She said we we often and I'm paraphrasing but she said very often we We think that we need to Develop trust with someone.

And then we can be vulnerable. And she said, but very often it's the opposite way around. You have to be vulnerable first before someone will trust you. And uh that really stuck with me. Uh And

Uh In any case, uh But I'm trying to find some of the connective tissue and these commonalities that can apply anywhere.

by and large, I think it's certainly the case. And like whether you go to the middle of nowhere in the jungles of like Borneo, or you're in New York City, or you're in here, or you're anywhere else, like the the same type of pain, the same need for purpose and meaning. Like it's it's all there. It's it's universal. So I I try to tease out hopefully things that people can apply and Any of those contacts. Thank you.

Yeah, of course. Uh Well, let's see. You know I'm I'm I'm struggling with uh I I I think this is a pretty natural place to start to maybe wrap up a a bit, but uh do you guys have anything That you would like to Ask or say to people who are listening?

Maybe not ask. But As I s I said before earlier, uh My change came through uh really education. Really opened my eyes.

I Credit wise. I have enough college credits or I have the equal amount of credits that someone halfway through their master's Would have Um

But I I can't achieve that because there is no funding. For post secondary. four year

Graduate. So You know, I'm hoping that Some legislation will gain some traction.

That would give the opportunity for individuals in our circumstances to You know, apply themselves and earn. You know, uh higher degrees.

Uh I would Just say uh I guess it's kind of an ask. Yeah, please don't Write us off.

In prison. Uh we've made some really, really bad choices. Absolutely. And we are responsible and we are accountable for those and nothing can take them back. But that doesn't mean that we can't Change and do better. And I think a lot of times

Yeah. From what you see on TV, what you hear about most often hard time, lock up, shows like that. It's kind of painted in light that there's no hope. for people in here and that's really not the case. We see it I hope that you come to see it.

I hope people listening will And just Don't Give up on people inside prison.

Um if I could say anything to anyone out there. It would be That I find myself now in a place where I actually have meaning in my life and I feel like I'm bringing value to other people. But that's mostly because Of

My community in here. And because of my family and friends on the streets who never gave up? Has someone in their life. That's struggling.

I would just say don't give up on them. Hold them accountable. But continue to give them hope. and try to provide them tools and opportunities to where they can make a change and start making some good decisions.'Cause you just never know. who that person can really become. So just don't give up.

Thank you guys. Thank you. Yeah. I mean on the inside or the outside, right? I think those are good rules. Good recommendations. And uh

It's it's uh I mean I consider it a real privilege to to share time with you guys, uh because I mean if I think about it, right? I mean you have the opportunity potentially. It's like if you build up A

To get to that fifty one percent. Potentially, right? And beyond. But if you have if you develop This Your own program, right? Of sorts. And you have your approach to Helping people.

develop this meaning and this hope and also tilt Just slightly in the positive direction. in a a more positive direction. become Mother Teresa overnight, which is pretty unlikely.

One degree better, right? Not one degree. It's like you start off here and You s you if you change your position walking say one or five degrees. Like you walk, it doesn't seem like that far away. You walk, okay now.

Now it's quite a bit. And then you walk a few miles, now it's completely different destinations, right? So that initial change can can make a make a huge difference ultimately and and It strikes me that like Well after you guys have left this place.

Uh you could leave a legacy of people who continue to do that. And Potentially, right? So you've kind of like.

Senior class, teaches the junior class, teaches the sophomore class, and that I mean that's a really meaningful legacy. Well guys uh I really appreciate you taking the time. And uh I certainly wish you all the best. Uh with everything that you're working to build.

Yeah, inside yourselves and outside. Thank you for coming on the Kern Valley one eighty podcast. We're your hosts. I hear you could be like us with tens of hours of experience. Yeah, I hear it's uh strangling a little bit out there. Now that you got the big interview out of the way. That's right. Room is gone. So uh I th I think we should get back to get back to the excitement.

uh across the yard. So uh You guys want to give your names one more time? Jason Allen? Ian Viatoro. But you forget for second.

I'm sorry, I have to disclose right my my ri my name is is Gillian. But it's so strange and odd that everyone just calls me Ian. And I'm Brandon Minard. Alright. Gentlemen, thank you so much. And uh Keep it up. Thank you.

Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered, it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite. of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com that's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Business Wars. People always ask me what podcasts I listen to, and the truth is

Not many. because given all my other projects, I don't have a ton of extra bandwidth, but one new addition is Business Wars from the podcast network One Dream. Human history has seen hundreds upon hundreds of epic wars, of course, and often they're between nations, but some wars are waged between large corporations or between startups and large incumbents. Business wars, which I've been listening to, take you right into the middle of these battles that are waged for control of your wallet and your attention, ranging from, say, the wars between Netflix and Blockbuster, or Nike and Adidas. to rivals in small businesses across the country struggling to survive in a cutthroat world. These stories really feel like dramatic thrills. I've been very impressed by the sound design also, which I didn't think I would care about, but it makes a huge, huge difference. And just to give you an idea of what you might discover.

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business review that shares the untold and very real stories of what went on behind the scenes with the leaders, investors, executives that led them to either new heights or to ruin. Sometimes somewhere in between. You can search for business words on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to this episode right now. Or head to wondery.fm forward slash Tim. That's W O-N-D-E-R-Y.fm forward slash Tim. to find business worse is a great show, and I do not say that lightly, and I might suggest start with Sudden Death, Netflix versus Blockbuster. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Last year... I committed to making sleep a top priority.

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