#301: Joe Gebbia – Co-Founder of Airbnb

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My Oma, sweet Christmas pie. This is Tim Ferris and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world class performers from Any and every possible field. ranging from the military to business, from sports to chess, and everything in between. This particular episode features a friend of mine A very, very entertaining, very competent, very eclectically skilled

Joe Gebia. Joe Gebia is a designer. He is co-founder of Airbnb. Certainly an entrepreneur. Currently chief product officer. At Airbnb. He has

helped to redesign the way the world travels and how people connect. And many of you are familiar with Airbnb, of course. It's created an entirely new economy for millions of people in more than a hundred and ninety countries. But What you don't know. Is Very likely the first half of the story. What happened before Airbnb? What were the projects that worked out Yeah.

the pitches that were so important, the critical decisions And where do crit buns Fit in. You may not know of Crit Buns, but you will. I'm sitting on a butt pad right now as I record this called Crit Buns and it is a critical see what I did there, piece of the puzzle in the story of Joe Gebia. He's hilarious.

Uh he does deliver the nitty gritty. And you get to see And get to understand the experiences and decisions hardship, failures and successes. That then prepared him.

for Air B and B. It doesn't happen overnight, folks. So Uh there are some long winding stories in this one. So uh fasten your seatbelt, sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride. And uh Joe Gebia, G-E-B-B-I-A, you can find at joegeebia.com on Twitter at Jay Gebia and on Instagram at

Joe Gebbs G E B S. And without further ado. Here is Mr. Joe Gibby. Ciao. Welcome to the show. Tim. Thank you so much, buddy.

I'm so excited to finally Have you here. So thanks for flying out. Of course, my pleasure. Here we are in Tejas. And where to begin? I mean we've had the opportunity to get to know each other. Over the last while, which has been super fun.

had some unique peak experiences, which I'll leave nebulous just so everyone's really uncomfortable with that statement. And uh Where to begin? We were talking about this. I was having excessive numbers of machiados earlier. While I was watching you eat your French toast. And uh

I think the question to start with is What is your first Memory of causing trouble or getting into trouble. Well

Um let's see. To go back, I think it would probably be around Second grade. 'Cause uh second grade well

You have to understand um When I was young I was really into art and Into drawing. And Around the second grade the teenage mutant ninja turtles came out.

Right, like Donatello, Michelangelo, Raphael, everybody like I was I was in it. And so I started drawing them. And I just had such a good time drawing them that I would show them to my classmates.

Remember in the second grade. And My classmates started to want to buy them for me. Yeah. And so I would mount them on this like really special poster board.

And I'd come into class and like I would be selling these for the total of one dollar. If you want to get a big one, I would sell you the bigger ones for two dollars. And so I was having a ball, um, doing what I loved.

making drawings, classmates and like make an extra you know allowance every week of Dollars a lot of money when you're in second grade. And so uh I at one point the t my teacher pulls me aside and she says, I need to talk to you. And she begins to explain to me that

Students were so interested in these drawings that they were asking their parents for extra lunch money and their parents were like What do you need extra lunch money for? And they traced it back to me and the the teacher shut me down. You can't be doing this.

All right, so Already. Signs of looming. Misbehavio. Uh yeah, and and signs of of uh you know

Spotting an opportunity and doing something about it. Entrepreneurship. Yeah. Yeah, it was also, you know, you can say my first brush with regulation. Yeah. Right. May or may not come in handy later. Maybe.

And Where were you at the time? Just it place us. Geographically. Where did you grow up? Uh my parents are from New York. Uh my Grandfather's

Heritage back in Italy and Ireland. Grandfather's in Brooklyn. Parents grew up in Long Island. Move to to Georgia. Right before they had me.

So I grew up in the deep south. I was in You know. The town of Warrantsville, which is next to Snellville, which is near Lilburn, which is not far from North Cross, which is kinda close to Atlanta. So if you went you know an hour in the

one direction you'd you'd be in, you know, farm fields and Yeah, horse ranches and Um it'd be Uh you know, it was it was it was the south. Right. In a in every kind of way.

So you're selling these drawings. No. Mm. Where did that impulse Come from.

And I ask because I've had the chance To spend some time with your dad. Awesome guy. We were Together at A date with Destiny.

event and you had the very good idea of Basically creating animal house by renting a house together. On Job and B. Otherwise known as Airbnb.

And Your dad's awesome, eh? also seems to be very entrepreneurial. Yeah, so that's why I'm asking, I'm not implying it. Came straight from your dad, but

Uh could you maybe Talk about that. And then also What were what were some defining characteristics? of your childhood.

Well certainly both my parents, including my dad. were very entrepreneurial. They they both worked for themselves growing up. So I had this Um You know environment where I saw my parents forging their own path.

sort of their success was fully dependent on how hard they worked. And how ambitious they were. in in their their careers of what they were doing. My dad certainly was entrepreneurial, you know, he was always coming home with something on the weekend saying, I've got this new product idea, I've got this new

service I found and and um you know Our basement was full of these Different attempts at different things. Um so there was this This spirit of trying things out.

By all means in our household. What were some of the things that your dad tried? Um I don't know, some early internet things in the mid nineties as the internet started to come out. Um

You know I I don't remember. W what did he what did he end up doing? Um Well he ended up working with my mom. And uh they both were in the health food industry.

So When you go into whole foods and you see you know, vitamins and supplements in the vitamin aisle. They were the representative between the manufacturer of those products and getting into the shelf of those stores. What's interesting was to

Tag along with with them on business trips where they Drive around the south from South Carolina to Tennessee to Alabama.

And Getting to see how they interacted with these store owners because it It wasn't just whole foods, it was the also the mom and pop. Vitamin stores as well, right? Independence. And so

Um was really fascinating was watching them interact with the store owners. And it's just seeing how far they would go to serve people. Yeah, we're

I remember one time specifically we're in Tennessee. And it was really late at night. Uh all the other storm poise have gone home. It's my dad, myself and Store manager.

And we're sitting there stocking shelves. So this is Tennessee? Yeah. We're doing somebody else's job, but it for my dad it was just about creating a connection with With the store owner and really I guess going above and beyond what was

Required of you. So I really took away from that those Yeah. How your parents treat people.

Um Yeah, it was just it was really nice to see. And it definitely planted a seed in me of of like No, going out of your way is for those that you're serving for your customers.

Was it your Was it your dad's idea to bring you along? Did you ask to be brought along or something else? I don't know. Yeah. I remember the The very first morning.

In the house that we rented in Florida. We had Heard. Of

Date with destiny being nicknamed by some people Date with Death because the schedule's so intense, right? Yeah. Twelve, sixteen, God knows how many hours. It's up to Up to the powers that be, the big man, and so on. And it can be very hard to get food.

Can be very hard to get a break and even if you do get a break, maybe there's a line of three hundred people from sixty countries waiting to get Chicken wrap, so you're not gonna get your chicken wrap. So we had stocked up. with bars and mixed nuts and yogurt and jerky and everything imaginable.

And it was Scattered all over the place. Yeah. And got up in the morning. And it

the entire collection of food had been Rearranged. Like a point of sale display. It was in perfect order. It was ready for a storefront. And I was just like Did you do that to my to of my friend De V and he's like No, I definitely didn't do that. I and then I knew Amelia hadn't done it.

I was like, Who did that? And I was like, Oh, then Joe Senior was like, Would you like some eggs? I'm happy I'm making some eggs. But you like some I was like, wow. Wow, yeah. So it makes sense. It makes sense. That attention to detail. You got a little taste of it. Oh, it's great that morning. I was thrilled. Uh What else did you

What else? Did you experience in childhood that that stuck with you? And I'll I'll I'll I'll lead with one thing. that I originally asked you all about and when we initially Spent time together.

Also related to Tony Robins. Tony's the glue that holds us together, which I didn't expect to really be verbalizing, but it seems at least up to this point that he's been a a a A s a Consistent character. In the background or in the foreground. He's a big dude. Hard to miss. But we

Began talking tennis. Because I'd just taken my first ever Tennis lessons. uh with Jim Lair And uh Lorenzo Beltrame, an incredible

Coach down in Florida, but you were wearing a uh Nick Bolitary or Bolitary Academy shirt. And I knew just enough having read The open Autobiography by Andre Agassi. to recognize the name. So I asked you about it.

Uh so it seems like Tennis was certain certainly something that was also Oh my god. We had a tennis family, you could say. I think that's what Th call that a time where every member of the family plays tennis. We did coaching together, we played in ALTA and USTA together, we did um competition together.

And it was a a truly a family sport growing up. Um And so tennis was a huge part of my life. As a kid. Amongst a lot of other sports.

I think that's of things that stood out to me of of childhood and things that one of the things I'm really grateful for is is that Whatever my interests were, my my parents would support it. Um And I think they learned this lesson the hard way.

Um how so? They they got me into uh violin when I was really young. When I was like about four or five years old. Which you're interested or not interested in.

No And so I was taking violin lessons and there's a recital. that I I don't remember how old it was, maybe Six. And

Um at this recital it's in Savannah, Georgia. I'm sorry, Augusta, Georgia. And Um Definitely out of my depths here. Like All the kids are bigger than me.

I'm I'm not being able to keep up with everybody else's plane. And apparently I sat down on the front of the stage. And just put my violin down. There's my parents in the back, probably with a terrified look in their face. Yeah.

And after that experience They switched their perspective and said We're gonna support whatever his intrinsic interests are. Right. And so I was really grateful for that. You know, throughout my my childhood.

Sports. Music and art were the three things that Uh Any time I threw my weight behind something, they were right there to support me, whether it was a you know practice l uh Sports practice or sports equipment, or

um music lessons or Art supplies, whatever the thing was, they were there. to to support me in it. What If not violin.

Where did you gravitate? In the violin lessons, I do remember this. This part. I was so eager to finish the violin less violin lessons that I could go bang on the piano that was in the same music room.

And sure enough, I started taking piano lessons and I've I've played ever since. Cool. So you still play? I do. Yeah. I've got a piano at home and It's like one of those things. The first thing I do when I get home. At the end of the day.

As I just go jam on the piano I I Either play Some of my favorite music from Thelonious Monk or Dave Brubeck. Or I just make stuff up and kinda riff. What other

entrepreneurial experiences do you recall from elementary school or high school. After You got the kibosh thrown on the teenage manage turtles. Yeah, it certainly wasn't the end. You know I

I just think we remember A whole bunch of things from Part of the common stuff, right? Like I start a lawnmowing business in my neighborhood. So I'd I put around f fires in people's doors in my neighborhood and

Offered. Um lawnmilling car washing. And so You know, I'd go w Mel One for twenty bucks. Um that that just was quick money in my pocket as a as a kid.

Um kind of getting into high school. There was uh one moment where senior year came around and the s the senior year t shirt that I did my high school It was pretty much Uninspiring. Let's just call it that.

And I thought, you know. I bet I could do something better than that. At this point I just got my first Mac, my first Apple computer. And it had Photoshop on it. Illustrator.

And the graphic software that you needed to To make you know. Visuals. And so um I that's when it was actually one of my introductions to Photoshop.

was I just redesigned the T shirt. And I didn't have any money really other than the lawnmowing money that was coming in. And um I figured out how to get these T shirts made, I went to a local printer. Um

And suddenly I I'm I'm sitting on about three hundred T shirts. And I realized I gotta go sell these things. Okay, got it. So you

Take it upon yourself to redesign The was it the high school T shirt? Yeah, like this the senior rat like the senior t shirt. The senior t shirt and then Went out. And now you have a bunch of inventory.

I got a bunch of inventory and I gotta go sell'em. Um Which would come up again later in another story. Yeah. Um

But yeah, it was it was it was fun. Actually I remember Uh I did better than break even on those. And and people were really happy to have a a really memorable You know, it was a riff on the the tide logo. Sure. And so instead of saying Tide it said seniors class of two thousand. Brookwood High School.

And um it did really well. Mm-hmm. So you so you didn't You didn't bet the farm and lose the farm. You you at least broke even. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was fun to to learn You know

How did you some of the the graphics programs like Photoshop. And then also figure out like how do you turn that into something. Right, has it leave your screen and become something physical. So It was a great lesson, if anything.

Where did you think now this was senior year in high school. Yeah. What did you think you were going to do when you grew up, per se, at that point? Well what did you want to do? So Every year from elementary, middle, and high school

The art teacher Would tell me You need to take more art classes. 'Cause it was a a talent that I had that stood out and they they recognized it and were telling me about it. And so year over year I would invest more into

our classes. And At one point I was driving downtown to the Atlanta College of Art on weekends to take figure drawing classes.

Sometimes on On weeknights I'd I'd drive down for painting classes. And And then something really incredible happened. I applied for this program called the Governor's Honors Programme.

In high school. Where they take Students from around the state of Georgia. across all disciplines math and science and languages and art. And

They pick about thirty students out of the state for each discipline and then If you get in. You go to a college campus for the summer. And you actually study college level coursework. So I went for art

And I had an incredible time. Here I was surrounded by some of the other you know the the best artists in the state of Georgia. And other high school students. And I had teachers who were co collegiate level.

Uh. challenging us the same way they would a college student and I freaking loved it. And there was one woman in particular, her name was Donna. And she's like one of those people in life that you

Have along your your journey. Who helped you helps helps you see something else about yourself that maybe you don't quite realize yet. And so she sat me down one day during this program. And and really kinda laid out

What it might look like if I pursued art. after c after high school. And she was one of the first persons that got me really excited about. She made it realistic for me to even think about

Is that even a practical idea? And she's like there's one school you have to go to. It's the Rhode Island School Design. And I'm like, The what? Where is that? Is that in the Bahamas? Yeah. She she put uh Risde on the map for me. And I was during that that's a program during that that summer.

Um I really dove into painting. I did this painting that was about Eight feet by four feet. Wide. um stretched my own canvas and really like threw myself into understanding materials and paint um better than Ever before.

And we had the show at the end of of the program. So You know, everyone in art. the discipline got to have a g like a gallery show.

And there was my painting on the main wall when you walked in. It was really like It was a moment for me to realise that pe A people appreciated The images that I made and And my art in seconds I loved it. Like I really felt

uh challenge. I I felt creative. It was it was allowing me to Fulfill all these these. desires that I had to to create things. How much of that was the environment? versus the medium.

Do you think? I think the probably the environment a little bit more,'cause the medium could have been anything. Right. I mean we did rac racco pottery and firing, we did figure drawing. um painting there were we were exposed to all kinds of different mediums and materials. I think the environment is what I fell in love with. The being challenged, but being challenged, being surrounded by other creatives. And um

And really that's what Trigger me to say, huh? this this Redown School Design thing. So the next summer I did their high school program. And

got to spend six weeks on campus basically is like a you really act like a freshman, right? They give you again college level courses. And ask. At Risdy, I fell in love with the campus, fell in love with the people. And you know, as a as a junior in home like

I I gotta go here. This is this is where I I feel challenged. Mm-hmm. So then what happens? Well So

Before I I leave um high school. There's a there's another story. About um Entrepreneurial jail. Um

So I haven't told the story in a while. Uh But So when I I got to high school as a freshman.

The senior class right before me. had pulled off this amazing senior prank. So аргайское маска і за броко. So the Brookwood Broncos. And

They went down the street to this uh like uh a country western store where you get cowboy boots and cowboy hats. Called Horstown East. And on the the top of their sign, which was pretty tall, is a couple story a couple stories tall. Вознесжаєн фолсайз пластик хорс.

And somehow the senior class figure. how to get the horse down from the sign. And then they put it on top of our school. And so the last day of class, everyone came in and there's this giant full size plastic horse on top of Brooklyn. And so when I showed up as a freshman

Everybody was talking about it. I everyone's like, Yeah, did you hear what the senior class did last year before they graduated? Yeah. And it I just started to think to myself I can I want to outdo that.

I've got four years to think of something. I can surely I can come up with something. Better than the horse on top of the school. So I set myself a challenge of Figuring out. Um by senior year.

Mm-hmm. So The years go by. It's now senior year. Um and we have about

Four months to go. And I still haven't thought of anything. And that the clock's ticking. It's now three months to go. I still haven't thought of anything. Now two months to go.

And I uh I get on to Google. I search. you know, high school senior pranks, just to see like what else is out there.

Um because I'm still committed to figuring something out. And so I keep coming across the same stuff. You've got uh super glue the locks, the doors, you've got Um, fill up cups with water in the gym and put'em all next to each other so they like knock over.

Then you've got re put uh three pigs. out into the school and label them one, two, four, so if everyone thinks the third pig running around somewhere. You know, it was like Th the repetition of how many sites were covering these pranks is like these are not original. And that was one of my criteria. Like this needs to be something original. I'm not gonna just like copy another prank. And so

We're now like three weeks until graduation. Don't have me prank. I haven't figured it out yet. And my sister was uh cheer. And so she'd have this Sure, we didn't practice after school.

And normally I'd have to Hang around and and take her home. And so I'm outside after school one day and she's nowhere to be found. This is before cell phones.

And the way that you track somebody down at that time. Was to um they'd make some announcement over the intercom system and they like call their names. So I go into the front office. And by the way. I went to high school in Georgia that was one of the largest. We had over four thousand

people in a high school, right? So this is one of the biggest high schools in the state. And I thought that to access the intercom would be some you go in some room, there'd be some big system and it'd be super complicated. So I'm in the front office and I'm looking at the secretary and I go, hey, I'm just trying to find my sister, Kim.

Can you can you page over the intercom? And the secretary goes, Oh sure, just a minute. She pick she picks up the phone. And she hits. Pound zero zero.

On the the dial pad. And then she talks into the phone. Hey Kim. Kim Gabby, your brother's here, please come to the front. The building.

And everything she said into the phone came out over the intercom system. And I'm watching this and I'm going It's that easy? To get into the intercom system of the largest high school in the state of Georgia. All you have to do is have access to the phone line and hit pound zero zero. I'm like, oh my God. It was this big aha moment as I'm w watching this unfold in front of me and I go All I have to do

is Get one of the splitter jacks. And then I can run a cord. of another phone somewhere else in the closet or something, and then I could call in and have access to the whole intercom system. So for a week I'm toiling on this, I'm like, how am I gonna route a phone cord without anybody noticing it?

And then finally. It dawns on me. Just get a cordless phone. You can be anywhere in the school and have access to the intercom. So at this point I recruit one of my buddies, Mark Eisenhower.

who looking back probably wasn't the best accomplished for this mission'cause he played on the basketball team, he was about six foot four. With bright blonde hair. Right. Not inconspicuous at all. Um and so we go

We go to the school that weekend. And we have this grand plan. That um Well Well, maybe trick one of the janitors into letting us into the main office.

And when he leaves somehow we'll p like plug in this cordless phone into the school. Um it w it definitely was not a a well thought out plan at this point, but Um we didn't have a lot of time and so we ha we just went for it. And so

We went to the school, it was on a Sunday afternoon. I think the janitor saw right through us. He did not let us in the office and so we left uh a bit empty handed. But we weren't giving up. Mm-hmm.

So I employed another friend My name is Chelsea Hughes. And so the three of us came up with a better plan. That we'd go up on a week. Uh on on a on a weekend.

And There was a community school office. That we knew would be open on weekends. And That office

connected like these inner chambers to the main office. And if we could just get into that one we The thought was you could go through the sequence of other doors. to get into the the main office. And so Chelsea went up. And um try to figure out where

That principle was. That that um community school director. And so she f she identified him on the far side of campus. She signaled to Mark. Mark signaled to me and I'm outside and like

А блак ходи в май. uh full of the phone, a flashlight, and Mark gave me the signal. Full on Mr. Robot. Totally. I go running in through the lobby of the school, right into this community director's office. And then it's pitch black and I'm I'm like Doing

going through all the doors, it's like chamber by chamber until you get to the main office, the front desk. I'm gett I'm there and I move the desk to the side. And there's this just giant jumble of cords. underneath it, I'm trying to figure out which one what the hell's the phone line and then I trace it back to the wall. I pull out the splitter piece, I put it in.

And then I plug in the cordless phone. And the phone from the desk into the same line. And I'm trying to bury the chord base. Underneath.

the the pile of cords. And at this point I'm sweating my heart is racing. Oh my the darkness of this office definitely not supposed to be there. And all of a sudden there's a tap on my shoulder. Okay. My heart jumps, I turn around, it's it's Mark hovering over me goes, Joey, we gotta go. Mr. Chelko's on his way.

Yeah. And I'm like, all right, I'm done. So we push the desk back. We go out the back entrance into the parking lot, we meet up with Chelsea, I pull the cordless phone out of my bag, I turn it on. And we get a dial tone. We have access to the intercom.

So the next question is What do you do with that axis? So the next day. Yeah. I decided that I was gonna make a tape mix. of different songs to play over the intercom system.

And I play I put together a mix Of Pink Ford. We don't need education.

And Alice Cooper school's out for summer. Mm-hmm. And I even got so s detailed about this that I

I had my mom help out at home. She didn't know she was helping me. But we had two phone lines in the house, one for the business, one for you know personal use. And I would call one phone line to the other And have the tape player next to it.

To figure out the right volume on it, the right distance from the phone. And have my mom on the other end telling me if it was loud enough or not. So she helped me calibrate the right. Uh the right volume. Uh for the tape player. So

The The phone is embedded. Um The Tape makes

Tape mixes is made. It's now The last day of school. And I woke up that morning and I was nervous.

My god. Gotta do this today. All right. Prank is happening. So I go to school a little bit late on purpose.

So as it works. А парк а парк макар на паркінла, і он поки а в гаун. The other pocket I've got this tape player, like a handheld like a Sony Walkman. And I'm walking through the parking lot. It's just

Just мі, there's nobody else, and then all of a sudden. Ar school police officer shows up on his golf cart. And he turns the corner and he's coming straight towards me. And there's nobody else around. It's just him and me, and he's coming at me, and I'm staring at him, and I'm like, just be cool. Just be cool. He doesn't know.

And like as he's getting closer, my heart's racing faster and I'm like, oh my God, I've got this the bulges in my pocket of the phone of the tape layer. And he makes eye contact at me and the cough cart goes by. Like So I walked to the front of the school. And there's like this overhang area where the bus is pulled up.

And Um There's these benches and then the the these glass doors before you go into the main lobby. And so Everything's cleared out, except for this one kid.

He must have been like a freshman or a sophomore or something. And he's sitting there. And I'm like waiting for him to leave because I didn't want anybody to see what I was about to do. And He's not going anywhere.

And I'm thinking to myself, I have to do this now, like I can't wait any longer. So I just run up to him. I get right in his face and I go, look, you can't say anything about what you're about to see. And he was just totally freaked out and he goes, okay. Yeah.

Um I go behind one of these these brick columns that was holding up the the overhang. And where the office is where the phone base is.

So I pull the phone out. I pulled the tape player. My hands are shaking. Oh my god, just think of myself, all right. Go time.

I turned the phone on. Get the dial tone. I hit pound zero zero. My hands are shaking even more. I take this deep breath. And actually this beep comes over the whole school to signal there's an announcement.

And I can actually hear myself breathing. Through the intercom. I'm like thinking to myself, all right, I gotta do this right now. So I hit play in the tape player, I set the two down next to each other, and as I'm doing it, I flick the volume all the way. Just to be safe,'cause I'm thinking to myself I don't wanna come across as too soft in the volume, so I'm like I gotta throw the volume all the way up. So I set the two down next to each other.

And I walk. Into the building. And that's when all hell broke loose. I open the lobby. I go into the lobby doors.

And The music is blasting out of the intercom system. School's out for summer. It's like the speakers are about to explode. It's like so freaking loud. And

Um when you get to school late you had to go to like a check-in line to sign in. And so I'm in the check in line, there's like two people in front of me. And this is this is the scene. I'm in this like, you know, kind of High school lobby.

To my left are all the offices, including the one where the phone is. To my right is the gymnasium. Advan gymnasium two of my buddies come busting out while this music's blasting. They're laughing so hard'cause they realized that it was me.

The coach comes out of the gym. Starts yelling at him, hey, you get back in here. We don't know what's going on, but you gotta get back in here. I'm just sitting there with a straight face, not cracking a smile. I sign in. And then I to get to my class. I have to walk past all these offices.

Right. While I'm doing that, I hear what's going on. They're yelling at each other. People are sticking their head out of the office. Is it coming from in there? No, I don't know where it's coming from. They're got the phone in their hands. You can hear on the inacom them hitting like numbers on the phone trying to shut it off. They had no idea where the heck it was coming from. And so Азам вакінпасті се кінців офіси.

I catch a glimpse. Into The principal secretary office. And then into the principal's office, which is even a deeper layer. And I see I catch your face.

and it's bright red and she's yelling at somebody while this music's still playing. Right. Right. Now we're onto pink Floyd at this point. We don't need no education. It's so So this has been going on. This is like three, four minutes in at this point. Yeah, I'm walking through my classes in the very back of the campus. I'm walking through the halls. I'm totally by myself.

Well the music's playing. And every time I walk past a classroom, there's a little skinny like glass window and you can kinda get a glimpse into it. And as I walk past these classes, I take these double looks. And people are like on top of their chairs and on top of their desks and people are dancing. And

I get to my classroom. Right as the tape ends. Mm. And Look, I thought for sure they're gonna shut this off in like

twenty seconds. So I didn't make it take very long. It was a couple minutes. If I made a 20 minute tape, I probably would have played for 20 minutes. Right. So I get there right as the tape ends. I open the door. People are standing on top of their desk, people are dancing, the teacher's at her desk with her her head in her hands.

Like Totally lost control of Her class. And It's like the record stops, I walk in, everybody turns and looks at me and goes

Joey, was that you? And I'm like, no, I don't know what that was. And so Finally the teacher gets control of the class again, we sit down.

And everyone's looking at me like, oh, that was awesome, what was that? I don't know, I don't know. Not two minutes later. There's a knock on the door. An administrator walks in. She walks over to the teacher, the class goes dead silent.

They whisper something to each other, and then they both turn and look at me. The administrator comes by my desk, she goes. Joey, get your stuff, you're coming with me. And I'm like sinking him to desk, I'm like, Oh no. She gets outside, she slams the door, we're in the hallway.

And she goes, You want to tell me what happened back there? I go, I I don't know what you're talking about. She's like, We've got Mark in the office. We know what happened. I'm like, I I don't I don't know what you're talking about. She goes, You can make this hard, you can make this easy on yourself. So we walk all the way back to the front of the campus. And the whole way she's berating me, chewing my head off of all the

uh damages that I cause and all the issues that were created. With the phone system and We go to the secretary's office. And we walk through and I see Mark there, and he's got his head in his hands. And Mark is your very tall Very tall, very blonde. Very blonde, very obvious God. Yes. Yes, he was he's a good buddy and a good friend. And um

I I appreciate his help in this endeavor. And so he's got he's down like this. He's like Totally crushed. And he s me He looks at me and he goes. And I couldn't tell what he was saying. So he's just trying to mouth the words. He mouths something to me.

And so he what he was saying, he goes it was the janitor. Wow. So we get Through the Secretary's office. Into the principal's office, Connie Corley. Never forget her name.

They slam the door, and I'm standing there with my backpack. Wearing a green IZ shirt. I'll never forget this. I'm in my brown khaki pants. My green eyes odd. Love my backpack and there's Connie Corley.

At her desk. With their arms like this. Kind of huffing and puffing. Her face is bright red. She's got the phone and the tape player and the phone cord and the phone bass on her desk. And around her are the twenty administrators, including the school police officer. It's the biggest school in the state of Georgia. We had her own police officer.

They're all like this, like Arms crossed, huffing and puffing. Right. And I'm like oh Like my heart's racing. I'm like What is going on here? Every one of them took a turn at me just to yell at me about something.

Connie Coi starts yelling at me, How did you get in the office? You broke an entering And she's like Like Really angry. Yeah. And I'm like oh

Right. Like I'm starting to feel a little bit bad about this, like Mm-hmm. Like I'm I'm not sure where this is gonna go. Like Am I gonna get off on this or like

Are there some consequences here? I have no idea. And so From that They lead us into this other like negotiation room which I've never seen before.

It was this long wooden table with these like leather chairs around the whole side. Principal Corley's at the head of the table. Mark and I are now sitting across from each other. We've got administrators standing over us with their arms crossed like we're gonna make a run for it or something. And she like starts like negotiating with us and Um this is the part that actually. pissed me off the most is that

Uh she started to threaten our scholarships. She looked at Mark, she goes, Mark, you know, I know you've got um a basketball scholarship to this the school in Georgia that you're going to I had to have to call the coach and tell him about this this incident. She's to me and she goes Joey I I know you're going to that art school in Rhode Island, I'd hate to have to call their admissions office.

And tell them about this incident. And At that point I was like, There's no way you're getting in the way of either of our dreams. Because we tapped into the the high school intercom system. So

She made an offer. She goes Um We could press charges. for breaking the entering and tampering school property and some other things. Or

You can do This list of things. Which included um wiping down computer screens in the library, you know, during the summertime. Um

Ironically setting up and taking down the sound equipment for graduation. And like a few other chores and like manual labor, basically. Um And so Mark and I Obviously we say we'll we'll do the chores and the meaning of labor.

Um So that we can graduate. Pressing charge is somehow equated to not being able to graduate to get your d diploma. And so from there We go into the The school police officers

office. His name is Officer Harrelson. And It's a good cop name. This guy, yeah, right. This guy had the deepest kind of grisly voice that you could imagine. Office Officer Harrelson here, yeah, Brooklyn High School.

So We're in the office and he calls our parents. And this is this is like probably where The worst part of the whole story.

Update. that we opted in to do the manual labor. He thinks that we're not graduating high school. No. So he calls my mom. Because uh Miss Gabriel, this is Officer Harrelson here at uh Brookwood High School. Yes, ma'am, I've got your your son in in custody here. Yeah. Yeah that's right, ma'am. It doesn't look like he's graduating this year. Oh no Yeah, ma'am, he's right here. He hands me the phone and I heard this tone of voice in my from my mom I've never heard since I never wanna hear again.

She goes, you get right home after school. I can't believe you click. I'm like, Mom, but wait, we're gonna graduate. So she thinks her son's not graduating high school. Um Yeah. I'm like thanks Officer Howlson, that was really kind of you.

And does the same thing with the Mark. And We're walking out of his office and this is the best part. He pulls us to the side. Mark Jim.

I've been out the school for over twenty years and You need to know. That was the best damn prank I've ever seen. Officer Harrelson. So we

We go through graduation. Um One little funny stunt that we did is that you know you had your honors cords and Um uh different club chords that you wear around your neck.

Mark and I wore phone cords to honor the uh the senior prank. People were raving about it. Um And we came back, you know, two weeks later to do white computer screens in in the In the library. And I'll never forget we're outside.

Underneath the same overhang, like Dusting off our rags. And all these buses pull up. And all these bus drivers start pouring into the school past us. So it has like some bus driver, you know, end of year celebration or something.

And one of the bus drivers actually walks over to us and she goes, Are you the two boys that pulled that prank with the intercom system? And Mark and I look at each other and we're like, Yeah. She goes. You know yar.

You two are are legends in this county. Morgan are like what like how did they hear about it? Like all the bus drivers in the county that we lived in. So Um It was this just incredible moment of

You know, having an idea, having this ambition. To do something that was original. In this case, there was no property damage, nobody got hurt. Which is to me Essence of a great prank.

And um That was part one of the story. Part one of the story. Well, all right. I'll bite. I'll bite. What's part two of the story?

Part two of the story. Um I'm in college. This is About two years later.

And one of my roommates comes home one day. And he says Hey, you heard that show. It's on MTV. It's called um uh high school stories pranks

And controversies. And I go, No, what's it about? He's like, Yeah, I was I was just watching it's like They showed this this uh Some high school they they had this high school prank. It's like

I sat up in my chair, I go Really? Tell me about that. And he goes, Yeah, they they film these guys who Get this. They super glued the locks in the doors of this high school.

And I'm like You have to be kidding me. The oldest trick in the book. MTV's making a show about high school pranks and they're doing a super boo. In the lock. prank, I'm like, I have to get in touch with the producer. So I get online and I track down the producer of the show. And I sent them an email.

That was a teaser of the story, but not the full one. And basically said Here's my phone number. About thirty minutes later, my phone rings with the 212 area code. N Y C. NYC. And I get on the phone with this producer

And he's like I'm really intrigued by your email. Always looking for good stories. What is it what do you got? I told them the abbreviated version of what you just heard. And

He's like oh I love this, I'm gonna pitch this to my executive producer, we're gonna get back to you. It's about Three, four days later. Get another phone call from a two one two. Hey, this is Leslie from MTV. I'm the executive producer here.

Really loved your story. Uh wanna hear more about it from you. So by the end of the call She's in love with the story. She's like, You know what we're gonna do? We're gonna send a crew down to Georgia. We want you to come back this summer. We're gonna reenact the whole thing.

And included in the next Season. Of our TV show. So that summer we got to go back to Georgia. And reenact the whole thing.

This is only two years later. The same administration and principle is still there. And they did not have a lot of forgiveness. I was gonna say the wounds haven't healed over quite yet. The wounds had definitely not healed. They definitely had a grudge. Um Because

If anything, we just embarrass them. Right. They had no idea how to turn it off. Um like again, there's no damage or anything that was really done. It's permanent. They declined reenacting a school. So ironically went to one of my rival high schools.

And refilm the whole thing there. And even more ironic is that the principal, the new principal there was a former administrator when I pulled the prank at my other school. So he was intimately familiar with what had happened and at that point he was he could laugh about it. Um so that summer we reenacted the whole thing. Um Chelsea and Mark.

And got a couple other friends to be extras in the background. And it aired later that year on MTV. Amazing. Ha ha So it seems like your brushes with mischief just seem to reinforce Your appetite.

For mischief. Of sorts. In a way. Perhaps. Now When we were

hanging out earlier today. Ask a question that that I I often ask of friends And it was a little bit more. In effect, can you give me any cues? I don't want to hear the story.

Can you give me any cues that might lead To a fun discussion. And and one of them I said, I don't want to know the story because I want to hear it. Fresh. And when we're recording.

And one of them was N B A Time. Worked. With or in NBA. And I have no idea what this refers to.

But That's a cue. Tim, I think this story starts by telling you Fun fact. I see Michael Jordan naked.

In person. Okay. This is a good start. Now we're talking about Locker room. Barbecue my job.

I had a high school job where I worked as a ballboy. in the NBA for the Atlanta Hawks. That was my job in high school. Okay. I love basketball. I played my whole life. And

I was reading the news I used to read the newspaper every morning. When I was growing up. Just over breakfast, whatever the I just w consume the newspaper. And so Uh one day. I'm in the sports section.

There's an article about A bat being bat boys for the Atlanta Braves. And being ball boys for the Atlanta Hawks. At the very end of the article it said if you're interested in becoming one Send a letter about yourself to this address.

And I'm Mike. Oh my God. Yes, like that would be so cool, right? Mm-hmm. So I send a letter, but actually

I sent it on the day of the deadline. Ha ha. Like once it passed. And I sent them the day of the deadline. And I kinda forgot about it.

That's all. That next summer. I get a phone call. And This guy introduced himself as Chris Tucker.

the strength uh the head uh strength coach of the Atlanta Hawks. And He goes, Yeah, we got your letter, we really liked it. We want you to come down and interview for one of our ball our ball boy positions. I got This is awesome. I'll I'll be there. So we get on to um

At the time it was uh the omni. Uh before they had Phillips Serena. And I'm interviewing with them. Yeah, tell them about my s my life and my love for basketball and and these things.

And I get a call back a few days later that I got the job. So this I'm like a freshman in high school, right? Mm-hmm. I'm like barely like Sixteen. Maybe fifteen. Um fifteen years old.

And I start working. Yeah. In the locker rooms of Delana Hawks.

Actually my very first game I'll never forget this. Was The Hawks versus the Toronto Raptors. And

They threw me onto the the visitors. 'Cause they're ball boys for the home team and the business team. Can you explain what a ball boy does in basketball? Absolutely. Because I'm an idiot when it comes to group sports or team sports. I know what a ball boy or ball girl does in tennis. Yeah. But in basketball I have no idea. So bad th there's different tiers, right? The entry level tier is you're wiping the sweat on the floor when a player falls down in the middle of a game. Right. People go out with the mop.

And the towel and you're just wiping up the sweat so the player doesn't slip on the court. Mm-hmm. It's like the entry level position. And I did plenty of that. Um as you work your way up the tier. Then you work on the side of the court.

And you'd actually run and grab the players, uh warm up pants and jacket when they went to check into the game, so you'd be half like sitting on uh half court with them. And he handled a towel when they came in. You know, sit back down on the bench. And then the next year was he'd work behind the bench.

And actually assist the trainer. So you'd be handing the Gatorade over their shoulder. Oh cool. And then they sit down, give them the towel, get them their their their warm up. Their uh their jacket of their hoodie. And then the highest level was doing that for the visiting team. Right. And so

Um And whatever they needed. You'd run any errands that need to get done, you'd break the locker room down at the end of the game at the whole thing. So you get through the game like three hours early. To do all this.

Um you end up running errands for the players sometimes, give you like a nice tip. Remember Horace Grant one time gave me a hundred dollar bill. And so They threw me my very first game, they threw me to the to the visitor's side.

Toronto Raptors. Um It was my first experience, right, of like Be around So maybe agree it's Marcus Cambi, I remember.

Um was on the team at the time this guy watched Way uh uh at EMAS in college and like really admired And um Uh.

It was my first exposure to um Professional sports walker room too. Everybody comes in and they just take the clothes off to get changed and like nobody gives gives shit. Yeah. It doesn't matter at the end of the day. Um but for me it was like whoa whoa where am I? Lots of naked professional athletes. That was my first experience.

Of course you get used to that, it's no big deal at a certain point. Um So I'm I'm in the NBA and I did it for three seasons. I got to to work alongside Lenny Wilkins, the head coach, to Kembe Mutombo, Steve Smith.

uh some of these MBA grades. Um And there were some really incredible moments that happened. Um One of them.

One of them was When The Ha the Hawks played the Chicago Bulls. Jordan's still playing. This is nineteen ninety nine.

Um one of his last seasons. And Um I'll never forget this. So you have to imagine the scene.

We're in Phillips Arena. And Uh the Hawks are actually winning. Which is amazing.

And the place is going nuts. You can't even hear yourself think. It's so loud, people are screaming, they're they're playing music over the the loud speakers. And I'm working the bull's bench. Right, which is like you've got Scottie Pippen, Steve Kerr. Dennis Rodman.

Michael Jackson, Phil Jackson. Michael. Help the roster, yeah. And So I'm working on the bull's bench.

Third down, Phil Jackson calls a timeout. And The place goes nuts. 'Cause the Hawks are up. And

In front of me. Jordan pops down, Rodman's on the left, Pippen's on the right. Phil Jackson is like right here. And He's

Furious. Like this guy's using explodes like you never believe. He's yelling things. I c I feel like I can feel his s like his spit like hitting my face. He's just like And I'm right right behind Jordan. He's right here. And the place is s again so wow, people are screaming at the top of their lungs. And I'm I'm doing my job, right? I give the guys a towel.

And then I'm getting negatory, so I'm like, I'm gonna start with Jordan. Obviously he's right in front of me. So I I reach around I'll get on this side. Um

So left left hand like over the shoulder. Yeah, left hand over the shoulder. Jordan is facing this way, talking to Pippen who's right next to him. I reached around And Rodman, who's to my left.

turns quickly, bumps my elbow. the Gatorade quickly goes upside down and straight into Jordan's lap. There are only a few times in my life I've been as terrified as that moment. Phil Jackson's yelling at me. Michael Jordan spins around and goes, hey man, watch it. And I'm like, oh my God, like my heart's rate. I'm like, Jesus Christ.

I did what anybody would do in that moment. If you spill something, you tend to wipe it up. Right. So I grab the towel and I'm patting down Jordan's thigh. Like now I'm like in the huddle, right? Rodman's laughing at me because he realized what he d had done. Phil Jackson's like right here, like spitting, he's yelling so hard, and I'm like, I'm sorry, Jordan, I'm like

Trying to like dry his leg up. With this Gatorade spill that went right to his lap. And oh man. I'm like sweating profusely. Right,'cause like you're gonna get like the TV crews are like in the huddle too. The cameras in your face.

So you had one job. Don't pour the Gatorade on Jordan's balls. Well, obviously. Unfortunately Robman made that quick spin. No, I can knock me. Not your fault. So um Like the the buzzer goes off and it's like time to get back on the court and I'm still like pating down like Jordan's leg.

And he he's like, Oh come on, man. And um I think right after that he actually had like uh a whole bunch of points. He threw down the swam dunk or something, I think the uh Um the the moral of the story there is uh

Yeah. When you uh Spill get it on Jordan, make sure you clean it up. What It seems like there's another pattern here.

Which is Getting Comfortable with the Uncomfortable situations. Right.

or exposing yourself to discomfort. Yeah. So that your comfortable sphere of action expands. Uh

What What was your next brush once you get to Rizdy, so you're in RSD. Were there any formative Entrepreneurial experiences. That that that come to mind.

Absolutely were. And I should explain also, if I may interject just for a second, that One of the reasons I wanted to explore A lot of these stories is that It's easy.

And I think typical for people to take a single chapter in someone's life and isolate it and view it As the whole story. Right, but there's so much backstory and so much development and so many experiences. That lead up to. the small piece of the puzzle that people tend to think is the whole puzzle.

Right. Right. So just for people listening and watching, that's that's and I just enjoy your storytelling. So that's another piece of it. But the Risdy. Alright, so this is this is a level up. I mean Risdy, you have a lot of talented people at Risdy. Uh

Any entrepreneurial Memories or experiments. That come to mind from Risdy. Yes. So I decided to go to Risney to study fine arts.

To be a painter. And I don't really know what that meant. I had this vision of maybe one day You know. do the gallery. I I couldn't actually picture it, but

Um really wanna go study art. And painting. So when I got to campus they have um this week of orientation. And you get your class schedule and you get to meet upperclassmen. And um so I'm talking to this guy.

And Fellow student. fell fellow student, upperclassman, and he's saying, Oh, who do you have for your courses? And freshman year they give you the foundation stuff like drawing. Two dimensional design, three dimensional design, will be arts, art history.

And so I'm going through the list of teachers and I say this one teacher's name. That makes his eyebrows go up. I go. I've got Gareth Jones for three D. He goes.

You've got Gareth Jones. Oh man. I go, What is it? Just wait for the chess set project. And I go, What's the chess set project? And he goes You'll see.

So My very first class is with this guy Gareth Jones teaching three dimensional design. And picture this, we're in this art studio with these concrete fours, these Like rickety metal stools. Plaster covered.

kind of work surfaces. It's a little bit cold. It's September in New England. And uh you know, it's a very first class. I'm sitting around with you know eighteen other freshmen We're all trying to make sense of where we are in the world and what this RISD thing's all about. And this is about to be our first impression of what is it like to be a student at RISD.

And so We're sitting there. And all of a sudden this guy We're in all black. With this.

Big poofy head of hair. comes out. And he stands in front of us. And he's Got this Welsh accent.

And he goes. I just want you all to know that half of you are going to fail my course. Because he won't finish the chess set project. I don't think it's off. Oh my god.

That's what this is gonna be like here. Like half the people. I look to my left, I look to my right, one of them's gonna be gone. I'm like, Oh my God. And we're all looking at each other like Is he is he serious? And he goes on to explain the Chasset project. So in addition to your weekly assignments. The Chester project is this semester long project that takes place outside of cour of the classroom on your own time. Where you have to choose a three dimensional artist, like a sculptor like Henry Moore, an architect like Frank Lord Wright.

Furniture designer. uh a fashion And you had to find a book about them. And from that you had to select pieces of their work to recreate. And you did it in the format of a chess set.

Which means it didn't have to look like actual chest set pieces. one of their creations and replicated eight times for your pawn. It had to look exactly like the picture in the book. You took another one of their creations. And you had to replicate it twice for the rooks. In three D. In three D. And you had to do it at twelve inch scale.

Oh my god. You need to figure out what it's made of, what's the back side look like, what's the underside look like. And At this time I had a growing interest in furniture. Furniture design.

And I came across this furniture designer from the nineteen twenties and thirties named Garrett Rietfeld. He was a Dutch architect and designer. Um And he did these really beautiful chairs that are actually in the Museum of Modern Art, they're classics. And I thought A couple of things.

Um One is as I got to know Gareth Jones, the professor, it became very clear that this guy was super opinionated He would argue to the death to make sure that he was always right. I would watch him c like Just

Are you students? Like Like relentlessly to make his point. And out of that I just had this growing

I'd love to prove this guy wrong at some point. Um I also Thought

I'm gonna throw myself into this project. There's no way I'm failing. In fact, I wanna I want to f I wanna complete this project. And if I'm gonna commit so much of my time to this.

And I'm gonna make chairs from this. Designer Garreld. At the end of it, I want to Come out with something I can use. I don't want twelve inch chairs. I actually want full size functional chairs.

And so I'm like, this is a really great idea. I'm gonna share this with Gareth. So I call him over and I'm like, Gareth. I wanna make full size functional chairs. And

I my expectation at this time is that he's gonna you know, give me a high five and say, Joe, you can do it, you got this, I believe in you. Instead, Tim, he goes. Joe, I really don't think you can do it. Really focus on the smaller scale.

And he walks away. And I'm like No fucking way. All right, buddy. Now you really have to do it. The thing is, I didn't know how the hell to make a chair. I never worked with Wood before Power Tools.

Like actual machine shop tools. And Um, I I was really stepping in unknown on this. And I had a semester to figure it out. So

I just committed every all of my time to making this project happen. On on weekends, Saturday nights, my friends have been going out to Yeah. parties on campus and I was in the studio trying to figure out how to make chairs.

And so I I started by going to the furniture department. And talking to upperclassmen. And I actually sat down with the the head of the furniture department. Name is Roseanne Summerson. And I told her about my ambitions and she looked at me.

It's like You're never gonna figure this out. But she was encouraging and she Um Pointed me to some upper classmen who Then started to help me understand wood.

And machines and the tools, table saws and bandsaws and lathes and the things that you need to make Furniture. And so Piece by piece. I started to figure out how to make these chairs.

I was sourcing wood, I had access to the shop that they were giving me. And The thing is I never told Gareth where I was in the project. So every check in, he'd be like How's it coming? I'm like It's all right. And I would downplay my progress. Meanwhile, in my dorm room, it's starting to fill up with these chairs everywhere.

And so I like I worked my butt off and I just I I that whole semester I was like Hacking my way through it. And I I get to the The pawn.

So I have to pick pick one of his chairs and make it eight times. And I'm thinking to myself, wow, these benches are really big, that's a lot of wood.

I can't afford this. I don't know. I'm just a freshman in college. And so I'm out. Oh yeah. Okay, no, no. This is that's an important detail, right? I was trying to like fun this however I could. And so

I'm in the the quad one day outside the freshman dorms. And I'm I make an observation. Everyone's standing around smoking. Here in the quad. And there's actually nowhere to sit.

Huh. I've got this Bench design that I'm gonna make. What if I approach the school Get them to pay for the wood, I'll make the benches for my project, then they can have them afterwards to put in the quad for people to sit on. So I go to the the head of Residents Life, I pitch him the idea, he loves it. They fund a few thousand dollars worth of this inch thick plywood.

And in doing so I get access to the school's wood shops. And the school's craftsman. I could work on campus. And so now I've got their help to help fabricate these these benches. Amazing. And they paid for all the wood, which I definitely could never have afforded. And so Um by the end of the semester I've amassed sixteen full size functional chairs.

And Gareth had no clue. And I actually finished the last chair. At about two in the morning. The night before. The final crit. The day before the final crit.

Critic critique, right? Critique. Yeah, a critique. In art school, you have these critiques where you put your art your work out and then the professor in the class critique you. And that's how you learn how to improve as an artist or designer. And so It's like now December. It's freezing cold outside. It's Providence. And I specifically

To present. Because I figure when everyone's out getting lunch I'll get my roommates a couple buddies to help me carry all these chairs. And assemble them in the space and when people come back, there'll be this great reveal moment'cause nobody has any clue.

Except a couple friends exactly. What I've Pull off here. It's um My only regret from this project.

Is that I did not have a camera in my hand. To take a picture of Gareth's face when he entered the studio. Ha ha Yeah. I swear, I'm standing there.

And he comes marching in. And he picked his head up. And he looks at the room suddenly and you can see him counting in his head. Joe.

You've done it. You've proved me wrong. And I'm like, yes And for the rest of the critique we all sat in my chairs and we talked about the the project and um Uh it got very hard marks, obviously. And um

It was one of those breakthrough moments. where you have somebody that you look up to tell you you can't do something. And you are literally Tasked with something you've never done before. And somehow you persevere through it, you you ask for help.

You Um you figure it out and and on the other side of that I I was sitting there in this chair thinking, Wow, like If I figure this out.

What else could I figure out? Yeah. Like this seemed like an impossible feat. Before this whole thing started. And here I am. I'm sitting in these chairs. The professor's like Beaming at me, like

And it was just like one of these these moments that that One has in life. Where you you sort of cross a threshold of of understanding your limits. And at that point I I had a new a new bar or a new set of limits. How did you feel?

From the point that he said that. For the rest of the day. And what what did what did the rest of the day look like? I mean, well, first of all, I was so tired, I'd been up for Um, actually I hadn't slept for about three days before that. So over forty eight hours I was without sleep.

Um so I was delirious. Uh B is just So r relieved. And then third, I was like There's this ex excitement in inside of me.

Uh like I just I just proved myself wrong. W what else can I prove myself wrong on? And suddenly it's like there was so much possibility. Of

Anything At this point forward that I I probably need to take a second look at that. Mm-hmm. And rethink that based on this experience.

'Cause again, like How do you make a chair? And then how do you make sixteen full size functional chairs? at the end of the pro uh over a course of a semester. And so what's cool is that the benches got installed, students are sitting in them for they lasted for a couple years after that. And so the legacy of it not only went to the benches.

But the The story of what had happened became His story that he told every class. After that. So that's that's really powerful on a bunch of levels, right? Because uh not only and I have to

I don't know the guy, of course, at all, but I have to give the professor credit for Being willing to say. Like you proved me wrong. Right, because also just in that moment. the power of that reinforcement for you as a

is a big deal. I mean that's a really Potentially. Life defining. Inflection point of sorts.

Secondly. A few things occur to me. You created a You also created a A product. an outcome that people could use.

Right. Versus a scale. model. And You created a story. That would then set the bar infinitely higher.

Not necessarily the pass fail mark. But the you can Fucking do this. Mark. For students.

For generations to come, right? Many, many classes to come. That's a big deal. I've said big deal a lot. 'Cause I think you're a big deal, Joe. Uh and Uh One question that occurred to me while

I was listening to this. was Related to the moment when he said that. You couldn't do it. Or you thought you couldn't do it. And how you responded to that. It made me think of

a story that I heard from Alexis Hanyon, co founder of Reddit when They went in early. Some relatively early in the development of Reddit to meet with Yahoo. And They were showing.

Yahoo exec and the Yahoo exec made this comment, which probably To him or her at the time didn't seem like a big deal. But they said, Oh, well this is a rounding error for us. And

To my recollection, Alexis And his team went back to the office and They put You are a rounding error. Up on the wall.

to motivate the team. But not everybody responds. Two What you could view as a a death blow that way. So where did you get that from? I mean, is that from sports? Is it from your parents? Is it from somewhere else? Is it just Your programming.

Where do you think that comes from? To Uh If something's not a good thing. Yeah, played so many sports going up from tennis to baseball to basketball to track and field to cross country.

Um like Some of those are team sports, some of those are individual sports and In all of those. I mean in any sport That's competitive, you're trying to

ultimately compete with yourself to do a better performance than you did the last time. Um and so I I looked at sports as This constant Um I was I was in a game with myself.

And like cross country was a great example. That sport, like, for me, was I feel like where I honed my goal setting and was able to Practice pushing my limits. So every race.

Um I would If if I cross the finish line and I could still really like walk and had energy. To me that was energy I could use on the course to run a fast race.

Mm-hmm. Eventually I got to this point where I literally would collapse after the finish line and it It became so well known that Like the the medics would be waiting for me and they'd have the ice bags and like they'd have like the the IV just in case and like

The parents would be there to like pick me up and Um Um in the last, you know, eight hundred meters to the finish line. I'd always try to find somebody who was running a little bit faster than me. I ch I just would

Try to accelerate to catch up with them, draft them a little bit. And then sometimes I'd be neck and neck with them. Like in the finish lines within sight, it's so close. And I would just say out loud to them, I'd say, You're not beating me. You're not beating me. And I'd I'd use that to motivate myself just to to r try to run faster to to to get a better time.

That's amazing. Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the sports. Because I asked

Is that And it's a slightly different Lesson maybe or but one lesson that I took from sports. I went to two different high schools. The second high school I went to had mandatory sports.

which I felt was really in retrospect important. for a lot of kids. And By being forced to do various sports, primarily wrestling in my case.

If you want to get better, you're going to train with people who are better than you. Yes. By definition you are going to Be beaten by other people. And at least in my experience, I started to view

Any type of failure in that capacity being beaten is feedback, right? I mean you're it's like a crit. Right. It's a it's a it's a it's a sports based crit. And uh That's why oftentimes You know, when uh And if you have a good coach, they're also going to be pushing you beyond what your perceived limits are.

Hundred percent. So you get into the habit perhaps subconscious or otherwise of asking, is this impossible really impossible? Mm-hmm. Because I never thought I would break whatever. Six minute mile and I just did that. And then I never thought I was gonna break five thirty mile and my coach Just

Help me to do that or I figured out this hack which is chasing the fastest person in front of me and then saying, You're not gonna beat me, you're not gonna beat me, and then I collapse in a big mess of a heap at the end. But nonetheless, hey, I just beat five thirty. Exactly. Or whatever it is. Um you you you feel like you've You've expanded like you've

You've pushed the limits of what you thought was possible within yourself. And that that for me was like one of the greatest feelings. Yeah. That I I had at that time. And it what strikes me is that for me I didn't have many vehicles for expanding that Capability. That was

that was as tangible as sports. But design is super tangible, right? I mean you're building These chairs and these benches. And Uh I sh I should also just mention as a side note that I want to I wanna come back to.

Riz D. That I don't think it's ever too late. People might be listening saying, Well, hey I didn't have.

Agreed. cross country team or wrestling coach in high school, so kind of up shit's creek. you can still develop that, right, with physical training and and other outlets. To expand.

your capabilities and your perception of what's possible. It's so funny'cause that was a piece of advice I got in seventh grade when I started playing basketball. The basketball coach said Joe, if Joey, if you want to get better at basketball, you need to play with people who are better than you. Yeah.

And so when I used to go to the to the to the Y to shoot hoops on the weekend I wouldn't play with people my age or younger, I'd actually play with the high schoolers. who were much bigger, much stronger, much more talented than I was. And of course I got, you know push around and like you know You get bumped around.

By guys who are, you know Um Playing on the varsity team. But man, my skills, the learning curve that year. I feel like

That was that was like a another kind of threshold moment of like I'm not very good at basketball to actually okay, I've got some skills now. Mm-hmm. And so I think since that po since that moment I've always sought to Try to find people to play with who are better than me.

Mm-hmm. And that'll sort of come up back up when we talk about Airbnb. So the so the Welshman. Yes. So to speak. Um I I by the way, I um I caught up for him with him

I caught up with him for a coffee. About twelve years later. And I had to ask him. I'm like

Like What what the hell were you thinking? Why didn't you get behind me? Because Joe. Come on.

I knew that if I told you you couldn't do it, you would. Oh you. Oh you. Good man. We have a great relationship and I I see him when I go back to campus. That's very cool. Um So So phase shifts. You have that experience. Yeah, I have that experience. And um the great segue of sports into my RISD experience. I I love basketball, as we've been talking about.

And I I walk into the office of student life one day and I go to the guy at the front desk and say I wanna play on the basketball team. And he gives me this funny face and he goes.

We don't have a basketball team. And all of a sudden there's this like This awkward silence. It was just staring at each other. And he breaks the silence by saying

You can start one if you want to. I think I really what's involved in that? He goes, Well If you collect a list of twelve other students that want to play. Um bring it back to me.

I'm like that's it. Uh I'm like okay. So I run off. And they spend a week. Yeah. And I gather names of you know eleven other people play basketball.

It wasn't actually that hard. I come back to him like Okay, cool. Now what? He goes, Okay. Uh fill out this form. Take this to the student government meeting on Wednesday to get recognized as a student organization.

I'm like, okay, so I go to the meeting and I present the concept. I have a basketball team. Here's the paperwork, here's the names. Here's the Like what we think we might need for a budget. It gets pr approved as

From the Student government. So then I'm like, I go back to him like what's the next step? He's like, Okay, well you need to find a gym and And so one of these One thing led to the other.

And that year we we started Rizzy's first basketball team in uh forty years. And We started this this team, it was like Hodge Podge group of of other students. And we would rent gym space at a private high school in in Providence.

And At this point we're just practicing. Like we literally have the there's no season, there's no games, there's no other competition, it's just us scri scrimmaging each other. And Um We made some really basic uniforms. And just got things off the ground.

The next Year when I came back to campus. Um was was different. I'm like, Okay, this year we're gonna make a season We're gonna play other teams, like let's turn this into something. Um

And So I get on the phone. I start calling colleges in New England. I'm calling community colleges and Yeah.

Junior varity schools and Um I get on the phone with some of these coaches and I introduce myself. Hey, this is Joe Gebby calling from the Rhode Island School basketball team and I'd like to Hello?

Hello. Pretty much everybody hung up on me in the first couple of phone calls. But then there was one college. That took my call, I'll never forget it.

Because I had this Sneak out of my graphic design class. to uh take the the call. It was uh Clark University in Massachusetts. I'm on the phone with their head coach.

He's like, Yeah, okay, cool. Well, we're not gonna send down our varsity team, but I'll send my J V team. And I'm like, Perfect, we'll take it. So on December fourth, two thousand one We had the first RISD basketball game, Risdy versus Clark University. At this point

Like it's so informal for us. We've got these basic mesh jerseys that are like reversible, basically a practice uniform for anybody else. And I'm player coach leading the team at this point. And

Not even our own gym'cause we don't have one. We're in some private high school gym around the corner. And the Clark University bus pulls up. And their players start to get off the bus and I'm going Oh my god.

Their shortest guy is taller than our tallest guy. And they get the head coach and three assistant coaches and a trainer comes off. Meanwhile, it's just like Twelve scrappy art school students on the court with like Yeah.

And I think once the once the coach came down to the court, he kinda recognized what he got himself into and he's like, Oh boy And so we had a few, I think about one hundred and fifty fans of Rizzy students show up that that first game. Um, I'd say we got blown out. It was ninety four to forty nine. But in my mind that was a huge win because we established something, like we got a team Established and off the ground. It's a real master. Uh at Risdy, yeah.

And It was an incredible experience the next couple of years. Um, because it was like running a startup. You know, you had to put a team together, you had to raise funding, you had to create a brand, you had to market that brand, you had to get people to the games. One of the things I was most proud of is that

Uh Risdy the work the workloads are are incredibly difficult. And once you get into your majors They you know, they say like sometimes you never see anybody again'cause they're just so focused on on the workload. And

Um Other than graduation, the basketball games became the only other time really during the year Where you'd have the full cross section of campus under the same roof at the same time. Students faculty administration. Um

Uh professors, alumni. People from Brown who were just curious and wanted to come over and see what this Crazy Riszy basketball team was doing. And so it was this really cool moment where you just uh bring people together. And that was I think really the

the the the undertones, the undercurrents of what the team is really about. Sure it was about sport and competition and staying in shape. And the camaraderie of being on the team. Second of that was also about bringing people together. Thematically makes sense if we're time traveling, looking forward.

Yeah. So that was a great experience. Um I think And um

Yeah, because we're an art school. We didn't have to have traditional names. Yeah. Brizzy and any art school is all about self expression and and

Um not holding back and so There was a legacy of names on campus that all had a particular theme to them. And so the hockey team on campus is called the NADS. Uh

So when you cheer, it's go go nods. And So when we started the basketball team we had to sort of fall in line with the theme. So the team's called the Balls. Yeah.

And both the NADs and the balls are supported by the Jockstraps, which is the cheeling team. And Um there's a whole theme I probably maybe won't go into it here, but there's like a whole theme of of sports at RISD that um adds to the I think the the the levity and the humor of it.

Are they all testicle related? Um There was a There was a um I think there was a rowing team at one point called the uh the shafts. There might have been the the cross team, I think was called the shafts at one point. Um

Side note. Make some more caffeinated. Do you know where the The word avocado comes from. I don't know. I'll tell you. It comes from I believe it's I wanna say

in an older Mayan language, but someone can correct me on the internet. I'm sure they will comes from a word awakatl. T L then, oh cuttle. Avocado grow on trees. Hanging.

One lower than the other in pairs. And uh That means testicles. So If you wanna make a Ris D.

You could go with the avocados, but it requires a bit of explanation. What would that sport be? The most boring juggling team and intramural juggling. Remedial juggling team. The first and only juggling team in college. So I have to ask Because I've been wanting to debut this question for a while.

We talked about crit. Talked about balls, which I think is a it's a bit of a reach, but we can segue to buns. What does Crit Buns? Enter the picture here. Alright.

So it's freshman year. At Risdy. I'm in a drawing class. And The way it works again is like you'd come in.

And it'd be an eight hour class. So in the morning. You'd pin your work up on the wall, your drawing assignment from the week before and you'd literally spend all day Critiquing it or having a crit.

And you know, people would ask afterwards, how'd your crit go? Oh man, my crit was so hard. My teacher was so rough on me or like it didn't go well. Or it was great. And About four hours in. You're picture the the environment, you're in an art studio, hardwood floors, metal stools, wooden benches.

Four hours in of sitting on these hard Uncomfortable surfaces. Your butt starts to feel it. And everyone's wiggling around trying to get comfortable. So by the end of the day You're incredibly sore.

And I watched as my classmates exited the art studio. with This bun print on the seat of their pants because all the charcoal dust paint and ink that's on these studio surfaces rubbed off onto our pants. And sure enough, I look on mine, my pants are ruined too. So

I'm walking back to my dorm room. I'm thinking There's gotta be a better way. Ha ha.

If we're gonna endure these crits for the next four years. What if you had a seat cushion? That you could sit on to make you comfortable and to keep you clean. And so I got back to my dorm room and I pulled out my sketchbook and I drew that same bun print shape on the seat of our pants. Gave it some dimension.

And I called it crit buns. And I know at this point I had no idea how to make a product. It's just Your first year of design school.

So he took the sketch away. Now fast forward. to five years later. I've now done a dual degree in graphic design. And industrial design.

And At this point I know how to make a prototype. I know how to translate something from a sketchbook into You know, a real working prototype. And so

I make Crip on Hard foam. You can actually sc sculpt it out of a special foam. And now I have this full size.

Hard You know, representation of the shape. Which is like, you know, two buns that come together. And there's a handle, so it's for portability. I take that hard model, I cast it in rubber.

A expanding polyurethane foam. So when I took the lid off There was looking back at me the first Soft Crippun's sea cushion.

Mm-hmm. And it was great because now I could walk around my classmates, I could say, Hey what do you guys think? How much would you pay for this? What kind of colours would you want? And people of course had a cracked a smile when they saw it and they had a good laugh. Um, but I really hit a wall. Because I had a one off prototype, but I didn't know how to get it to the next stage.

And I certainly didn't have the money or the funds. To do that on my own. It was around this time. my senior year where I notice a poster on campus that says Competition for the design diploma, submit your ideas here.

And at Risley they give you your You know, degree. Paper to degree. And they also give the graduating class a different object every year. So I submit Crip Buns for the competition and it wins.

It gets selected to be given out to every graduate from The Risley class of two thousand five. Which is like freaking incredible. However. They tell me this on May first.

Graduation is on June first. That's not and in between that I have to deliver two thesis projects for graphic design and industrial design. I definitely don't have time to take on anything else. How many students are in the graduating class? Uh six hundred. Six hundred. So

I'm I'm like I'm so exuberant and excited that like, Oh my God They'll pay for the the the manufacturing of

A couple hundred cushions. At the same time I'm like, How the hell am I gonna get this done? Like There is absolutely no time. And so I start I get onto Google and I research I search foam manufacturers.

Tim, I called every single search result for the first fifteen pages. I was calling people in India, I was calling people in England, I was calling people in Texas, I was calling people in California And everybody said the same thing. Uh well son, um You know, it's gonna take you about six weeks just to make the metal mold and about another four weeks for production.

Sorry. Click. And I just went through everybody and was getting no no no no no. So then I went to my professors in industrial design and they also said It's never gonna happen in time.

Now. Um at this point the school's getting a little bit nervous. 'Cause the clock is ticking here. They call me and they say Um

How's the project coming? And I'm like, it's cool, don't worry. And they go, uh, so is it gonna happen? And I'm like, probably. And they go, Well you have until Friday at five o'clock To tell us if it's a go or not. So I'm like, okay. And what is this on a Monday, on a Tuesday? This is like Monday.

Alright. Fast forward, it's four o'clock on Friday afternoon. I have no options. Everybody's telling me no, it's never gonna happen. It's impossible. The manufacturing take many, many weeks, if not months. I'm like, I don't have that many weeks, we've got three now. And so I go outside the industrial design building. It's like a a sunny afternoon and I'm laying on the grass.

Right on the on the river in Providence. And I feel the breeze on my face, the sound of the birds. And I'm looking up at the sky. And then I'm thinking to myself, I have to figure this out.

I can't I'm not gonna give up on this. What haven't I thought of yet? And I realized that The guy that runs the metal shop in the industrial design building, this guy's Steve. I haven't talked to him yet.

So I run back into the industrial design building. I go, Steve, here's what's going on. And he goes. I've got this friend Sam up in Cumberland, Rhode Island. He's got a tool shop. Why don't you give him a call? Maybe he'll help you out. So I get on the phone with this guy, Sam, and I just pour it out to him. I'm like, Sam, this is what I want to do.

I give him every ounce of enthusiasm that I have and at the end he goes You really want this, don't you? And like, yes, whatever you can do. And he goes, All right. Here's what I'll do.

I'll move a couple projects around. If you send me The three D CAD file today. I can make the tool this weekend. And send it wherever you need to send it on Monday. And I'm like

Oh my God, I'm gonna call you right back. Because I remembered. There is a pool float company. That I spoke to the week before in Connecticut. Pool float.

Like water wings or whatever you would lay in and the Things that float in water made out of foam. And The guy told me he said well. I remember something. He goes.

Yeah, we can't make The mold in time, but if you find somebody else, we can produce the cushion. And the other thing is it had to have a silk screen on the top that said Rizzy two thousand five on it. And so

Um I call back this guy. Uh Christoph. at like four fifty PM right on a Friday, he should have been gone. Like I I don't know how I caught him still in the office. And I go Christoph it's Joe. It is the

Like I found somebody to make the mold. He'll have it to you by Monday. Can we wake it work? And he goes. You really want this, don't you? I'm like, yes, whatever you can do. And he goes, All right, here's the address to send it to you. So I literally call the school back

Two weeks later. Uh the day before graduation. Six hundred Cripons showed up on campus with a silk screen on top that said Riz D class of two thousand five. It was.

The day before. It was the impossible. Um Of how do you make six hundred Crip bones three hundred red, three hundred blue with a silk screen on top.

In such a short amount of time when everybody's telling you no. Like everybody just stared at me and was like, This is never gonna happen. Um I was exhausted by the time that happened. However, it was so fun to see my classmates running around with Crit Buns. Everybody had a pair and like

Um it was really fulfilling and it was worth all the effort and all the energy. And I finished my two thesis successfully on time and I got to graduate and everything. Um And while a lot of my classmates went off to great jobs at some at NASA doing industrial design and some at

Um some of the big design firms like IDO and others. Um I made a decision. I said you know Rizy and just design school in general does such an exceptional job of helping you Come up with a creative process.

To You know, think of really original creative ideas. They're they usually hit a wall though, which is at you stop it at the prototype and then you move on to the next project. And for me It built up this incredible desire.

To figure out how to How did how do you get to the shelf of a store? Like how does your idea transition from that one off prototype? All the way to the shelf of the store. And so I thought well

I want it I want to decode this black box. I have to figure this out. So I made a decision that I was gonna use Crit Buns. To help figure out. How you get a product from

an idea in your head to a sketchbook the shelf of a store. So the day after graduation I started my first company To make and sell cred buns. And the beauty of it is that I didn't get paid for the graduation project, but they gave me the metal mold afterward. Which is a few thousand dollars. So with the biggest expense out of the way.

I was off. Off the run. So what happened what happened to Crip Pons? Why aren't you making Crip Punts today? So that summer I started to develop the brand, I filed the patent Which is design has a design pattern on and followed the trademark and everything. And

Um I went back to the school that summer and I said, you know, that was so fun for the graduating class. What if we did this for the incoming class as a welcome to Risdi gift? And they love the idea and they place my their first order. And so on top of that order, I I tacked on my own inventory.

So I did this production run of I think a thousand cushions. And Two things happen. The first is that There were now four hundred students running around campus with Crit Buns, actually using them in the studios. I could go talk to them. I could take photos of them. I could actually start to build stories and narratives. Around how they use the product.

Okay. And second thing that happens is I'll never forget. In my apartment in Providence. In the basement. Of like this really old kind of n early nineteen hundreds apartment.

Um I had about Ten boxes of hundreds of crip buns. Like filled up this entire room. And I'm sitting there staring at them and thinking Oh boy.

Nobody's coming to my basement to buy these things. I have to go out into the world and now figure out how to sell it. How do I sell these things? So I put together a sales sheet. Um, and and I um put on my best shirt and my best shoes. And like just the best kind of like professional look that I could have.

And The first story I walked into was the Brown University bookstore. And I asked for the store manager. And we sit down in this little conference room.

And I start to go through my spiel. And I put the the cell sheet. In front of her and a sample cushion. And I'm going through the the whole thing and I'm like You know, given all my enthusiasm.

And about Thirty or so seconds in, she looks at me and she goes, No thanks. And gets up and leaves the room. And I'm just sitting there this tiny little For some conference room. by myself with my cushion in my sales sheet.

And no sale. Like actually. Pretty horrible rejection. Um So I walk back to um

To my apartment, very slow walk kinda like a Charlie Brown. Snoopy kind of walk. And Mm-hmm. And I'm thinking to myself.

That sucked. I'm like how the hell am I gonna sell these cushions if that's the reaction I'm gonna get? Yeah. It was in that moment where I remembered this

Sales equation. at this uh entrepreneur weekend at Brown University that I snuck into one time. And the guy's talking

For Whenever you introduce a new idea into the world, it was an equation for Receiving rejection. And how to move past rejection. And the equation was

S W squared. Plus W C Equals M O Wow, hell of a memory. Yeah. I'll give myself zero seconds. I already forgot it. All right. One more time. S W squared plus W C plus W C equals M O. All right. So SW squared.

Is Some will love your idea. Some won't. Uh huh. Plus.

Who cares? Equals Move on. It was the equation. So I'm telling myself, Okay, S to B screen, who cares? I just gotta move on.

And so I did. I'm like, all right, I'm just gonna find another story. Some people are gonna love it, some people aren't. It doesn't matter. I just gotta keep going. I can't get hung up in one person saying no. I need to go keep going until I find can find somebody that says yes. So I went to the next door, they said no. Into the third store. I went to the fourth store, which was this.

Little tiny gift boutique store. On Thayer Street in Providence. I know Thayer. Yes. Had a Halloween on Thayer. Hell of Halloween. It is. That's a crazy street to be on for Halloween. Um So I go into the store I give him the pitch, the sales sheet, and I at this point I'm t I'm tweaking everything, I'm iterating as I go.

I'd love the bike. I'd love to buy some cushions from you. And I'm like, Oh my God And she goes, I'd love to buy four. And I'm like thinking inside, hell yeah. She could have bought one and I would have been happy. So she starts to go with the thing, Well here's you can ship'em to and here's the address and I go, Oh no, no

I'll go pack them up at my house and bring them back to you today. She's like, Really? I'm like, Yeah. I ran home. I packed up my cushion. I was so excited. I gave them to her. And I went back later that night. After they closed. It's like uh it's dark on Thayer Street.

I go to the front of the store and I press my face up against this cold glass. And I can kinda see my My breath. And I'm scanning the store and I'm squinting.

And there it is. I can see crippons. On the shelf of the store. And I'm like Yes. I did it.

Yeah. Everything f after that point was downhill. Like I it was like I knew how to walk into a store, I knew how to talk to a Downhill downhill in a in a good sense. Like you're pushing the boulder downhill. Right. Right. Before I was like trying to climb uphill against all these obstacles. Now it was just like coasting downhill. Now was that because you had the skills or because you had proven to yourself that you could do it? Proof point.

Four cushions. Four cushions on the shelf of a store, I'm like Hollyah, somehow it happened. Um Now I have the like even more confidence to walk into a store, meet with a buyer and ask the question, you know, what's the process to to get a new product into your store?

And I could sit down with them and talk about the product, how original it was. Um So I make trips to Boston. I go down to New York, I talk to Pratt and I talk to um

School visual arts, talk to Parsons, um Um I talked to more stores in Providence. What was the furthest away you traveled to sell cripples? Wanna go home to Atlanta for the holidays. Mm-hmm.

It's all at stores in Atlanta. I mean everywhere I went I was always carrying a cushion with me. I talked to anybody about it. Right. It was like Everybody I talked to I was just practicing the sales pitch. Uh huh. And just to get comfortable with it.

Um So that product and that concept just You know, it was never meant to be anything huge. It was just meant to be grad school in essence, to help teach me like The whole stack of product development because

I was doing everything out of my apartment. From the distribution. The packaging, the fulfillment, the website, the press, like everything was run from my desktop computer. Next to my bed in my bedroom. Um and so I got like

In a very micro like you know, very small scale, I get the full You know Ecosystem of what it means to run something. Obviously at a very small manageable scale, which is perfect. Um and so

One of the One of the the the finding moments was I set a goal for myself. I said What's the store shelf that would be the pinnacle for me? Like what would I just be the most proud of?

And One of the most heralded shelves for any designer to get on. Is a shelf. At the design store at the Museum of Modern Art in New York City. Huge. Huge. I mean there's legends of there. Like you can get Ean stuff, you can get George Nelson stuff you can get like

The greats of the greats, right? Along with modern things, of course. And so I set my goal. I'm like, I'm gonna figure out how to get Credit Buns into the Moment Store. And after two years. Of Just not giving up. I finally got my first order from Mo. I will never forget that phone call.

Okay. Now you are Clearly. Gifted or you've developed and cultivated gifts. with art.

And design. You've also had a lot of practice pitching. Right. Through good and bad. Experiencing rejection. So

What what got you the acceptance? And what was the what was the like what was the pitch? What was the process? At a certain point I think they realized I wasn't gonna go gonna go away. And they're like all right, it's easier to let the scale. I never I never ask them. Um but the product ended up selling out. Of their store. Did you sell peop did you send people there to buy them? I didn't have to. But I remember going I definitely made a trip down to New York after I shipped him the order.

And I walked in and there it was on the shelf of the moment. I took a picture And I just thought like wow. Like This seemed if you if you if I had told myself three years earlier that I would have made a product that would be on the shelf of the Moma store.

I would have said you're crazy. Like that's impossible. So what gave you The

The Hutpa To Pursue it for two years. Was it the fact that you'd

I think it was just proven possible to yourself? Was it something else? It was just wanting to experience that that feeling like what I imagined it might feel like if I were to ever accomplish something that was so Such a stretch goal for me. Mm-hmm.

I don't know. Like I just the developed relationship with the buyer at the time. Uh and I think that just evolved into an order eventually in Um Yeah, at that point. Like

Wow, what was next? Right? So was that now I'm gonna prompt one thing because it just popped into my head. Was Moma before or after I wanna say Trade show in Japan?

It was before. Before you're going to be able to do We can't I I only remember bits and pieces of this. But can you describe

Yes. So the product ended up taking me around the world. And this was still for colleges. Well no, I mean This is for any kind of, you know, gift fair or Any kind of event where there's other designers selling their things. So

I got connected with this website called designboom dot com. One of the biggest design blogs in the world. And they had this thing called the gift um the gift mark. Um And they basically would

invite designers from around the world to come sell their things. At these big design week events. Where it'd be really hard to afford access to it as an independent Yeah, young designer.

they would kind of create that opportunity for you. Pay for the booth or pay have the entire spectrum. And so they subsidised it to make it possible. And so I got involved in that and It took me all over the place. I traveled to Sydney, Australia, where I sold the cushion. Um I traveled to New York. And I traveled to Tokyo for design week one year.

And This was f fascinating uh because I got to experience what it was like to sell the cushion in person to directly to consumers. It's one thing to sell to a store manager than it is to sell it to the actual customers. Very different. The other thing was um RISD has these events where the alumni can come together and sell their creations of the ceramics or furniture. Products.

And so At this point I had figured out. After hundreds of interactions with people face to face. You know, I designed my stand with the cushions and the big signs at crit buns, you know.

Um supporting creativity where others can't. And Um I actually have seen it so many times at this point. the sales process down into five steps. There were five stages to the CryptOne sales process.

The first stage. The what the hell is that stage? Where people are walking by And they do this double take.

And they look at it and they're like What is that? But the shape and the color is interesting enough to draw them in. And so then they get to stage two, which is called the touch and feel phase. They grab the product off The stand. They squeeze it, they realize it's soft.

This is also my dating process, by the way. Please continue. The kinda get a smile on their face. And they flip it over. Right. And they enter stage three.

Which is the story phase. So in the back of the package. I tell the the story. You know, in a couple of lines. Yeah, how the product was concepted, how it was created, who made it.

And see you see them reading the story. Ah and then they smile and they make the connection of why the thing is the way it it is. Then there's stage four. Step number four. is tried and true. I've seen this everywhere.

They immediately start going like this with the cushion in their hand. They're looking around. 'Cause they want to try it out. Uh Does it deliver what it says it's gonna do? Does it make any hard surface more comfortable? So I always have a demo chair. Mm-hmm. And so

People sit down on it. And as they're sitting on it, I had a chair next to them and I And I figured out the question to ask. I asked somebody.

How do you see this fitting into your life? And what's amazing is that people told me all kinds of different uses that I never even imagined for the cushion. There's actually thirty five different uses for it. People use it for camping trips, people take it to baseball games, soccer moms love it for their kids. Um pregnant love it'cause it takes pressure off your tailbone when you sit down because it's got a dip in the middle. People with Skiatica love it because again, the dip in the middle takes pressure off your tailbone. I learned so many uses for the thing just by asking people that question. And the minute that people could

Connected important in their life. There's a very high percentage that they bought it. And in nineteen ninety nine it like wasn't You know, a huge commitment. Bankbreaker. So that was stage four.

Stage five I never could have predicted. And this was really The magic of Learning what It's not only about a product, but it's about a story as well.

I would literally watch people buy my product, they'd stand up. They turn to the next person in line who say What the hell is that? And the person who just bought it

would literally tell them verbatim the story about they would sell the product for me. I would just sit back and watch this happen and I'm like, This is amazing. And I realized the power of story in that moment. That Design is more than just a product. It's more than just

You know, digital experience. It's That cushion is Fifty percent foam and fifty percent story. Mm. It was a really valuable lesson.

And so I used like I learned from that every time that I went. So Here we are in Japan. We're in Tokyo.

And it's really exciting. My first time to Japan I'm like thrill. I'm Like My senses are just like overwhelmed. With everything about Tokyo.

And I'm at this five day Design event for design week. This is back in like two thousand and eight. Yeah.

And so I go out there with um Forty cushions. Which are these two giant boxes? Like these They take up a lot of volume, right? And I'm like

I take those things on the plane and then I take them through the Tokyo subway system and like it's really awkward'cause you can't carry you have to like drag them and it's like I'm like this, you know. For those people who haven't been to Tokyo, every once in a while you'll you'll encounter a subway car that has lots of space. That is not The default. Uh particularly if you're going during any busy period. There are in fact Certain stations where they have

Attendants wearing white gloves will push people into the car so that the doors can close and it's sardines in a can. So I'm just imagining you dragging these things around. I've got my big backpackers backpack. I've got these. Too giant. Cardboard boxes of twenty Critbuns each.

That are like heavy and awkward and trying to navigate the n the narrow subway system of Of Tokyo. And I get to my setup at the At the design fair and I've got this little

Yeah. To my left and right and all around me are other designers as part of design boom. And Yeah. I'm so excited.

As people come walking up on day one I start talking to them to try to tell them the story. And nobody speaks English. And by the end of day one, I've sold a total Of zero crib buns. And then thinking to myself, Oh my God.

This is this is not good. I'm definitely not going home with 40 cushions. I need to change my strategy here because this is not going to work. The story is not translating. The power of the story that works so well. has no impact here whatsoever. So thankfully the the young designer next to me Japanese.

And We struck up a friendship. We're gonna be together for the next couple of days. And I'm like I I have a problem here.

I need to translate these things. She's like, Well Um I can help you translate if you wanna make any written material. So I designed this poster Overnight. Giant poster. That

Is all in Japanese. With pictures of Crit Buns. Um I d had a picture of a stadium seat with an arrow pointing to it and s you know stadium seat seating in Japanese and then Um

Um I had somebody meditating on it. And um she was so kind to to translate for me. I ran to Kinko's that night. Got it printed in downtown Tokyo. Uh and the next day had this

Beautiful poster that did all the explanation. And had demo chair printed out. In Japanese on the demo chair. And

One by one. Somebody actually made a sale and I was like, Oh my God, okay, poop, this is gonna work. And then I had another guy who actu actually happened to be a Rizzy grad. He was there. just visiting, he spoke Japanese. He's like, if you want help translate, I'm happy to do this for you.

So Uh bless his heart. He was amazing. He Actually would like Draw people over to my Little folding table with my stacks of script buns everywhere.

And he would tell the story in Japanese and I'll never forget the last day. It was like towards the end of the day. Everything's sort of kinda closing down. And we sold the last pair of Crit Buns.

And there's this picture of him and I sitting there at this empty table being like, Oh my God, I can't believe we did it. So I was able to pay for my trip basically with the sale these crib buns. Um It was just a a great lesson in like having to Figure out how to translate your story. um beyond just, you know, English speakers in my case. Mm-hmm.

Um No that was a A role in an experience. So man, that that project took me all over the place.

I got to meet the the guy who invented the foam finger. This guy Gerald Foss, who's here in Texas. Um

Um You go into his lobby and he's got like the original film finger from the nineteen seventies in the glass case, right? Totally random. Um I got to meet The late Billy Mays.

Oh yeah infersials. Oxyclean. So I applied it one time. And many, many more. Yeah. I'm Billy Mays, welcome we're gonna show you this right now. And Um There is this uh

The reality show at one point. For inventors and people that made products um For some reason I I was inspired to submit Cryptons. Um and so I flew to LA one one weekend. And I'm in this like lobby for the casting with all these other inventors.

And everybody like Really weird stuff, like a lot of stuff for cats. Like the pet cats like running around them and like it's like a lot of pet stuff. And there's me like In one of my best shirts, holding my crit buttons, like really proud. And the producer comes over and they mic me up. And They're like, Okay, we want you to walk down that hallway and go through those double doors. And that's all they said.

And so I'm like okay, so I got my product. Proud entrepreneur here. I walk down the hallway, it's just like dark the lights are off, this dark hallway. All we can see is like these two illuminated doors at the end. And I open the doors. And there this huge conference table is Billy Mays and one other

Co star. And then there's like all these cameras and all these lights pointed at you. He goes, Hey, I'm Billy Mays, come on in. And I sit down in the chair. And suddenly I'm on this like pitch session. It was like Shark Tank before Shark Tank. Right. Right. Like I'm having to pitch him on why my product's so great. And Um it wasn't going so well.

Ha ha ha. until he tried it out. And he like actually got up and he sat down and forwards and goes Oh yeah, this was this is pretty good. And um and then they said, Okay, thanks and like I walked in It's like it's like Blitz of like Five minutes of just pitch mode and it was like getting peppered with all these questions and all these lights on you and these cameras.

I did not get on the show. Um, but it was just one of these crazy moments of like These unexpected things that This this product these experiences that this product brought me. See so why are you not why are you not the

The Titan of the Critbuns Empire. Why did you stop Critbuns? This goes back to Ris D. I switch from Uh being in painting. to be in industrial design, largely in part because

I learned about Charles and Ray Eames. Two designers from the mid twentieth century. That were a couple Rave is the wife, Charles is the husband. And They produce design that's legendary.

It's still referenced today, it's in the it's in the Moma. The permanent collection. It's iconic. And they dedicated their their lives to producing the best design to the most people for the least price. And they were really

Um celebrated. For Democratizing good design. Making it accessible. I'd also had the the chair project with Gareth Jones and fell in love with making things.

And realize that I wanted to switch from Yeah, this More Um uh a creative pursuit of painting.

Which was more about, you know, expression of of ideas through industrial design, which was cool to me because you can make something And it could be replicated. Thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of times.

You could actually touch millions of people. With your designs, just like the Eames had. And so this was my motivation to switch into industrial design. You could use design to improve people's lives. And it can be done at scale. You could touch a lot of people all at once.

And so RISD in the industrial design department did something brilliant our first year in the program. They put us all in in the the school vans. And they drove us out.

to the Rhode Island State landfill. And here we are. Driving through these Canyons of trash. Like

You have your faces pressed up against the bus clo window and you can't even see to the top. Well Uh The landfill for for the state. And you get out to the top and you're you get out of the vans and you're looking back over this just

you know, landscape of garbage. And for me, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm like, wow. Like I do not want to spend my life. Making things That contributes to making the land feel better.

Bigger. That is not interesting to me. It was like a a really impactful moment. Where I just

I I I started to feel a slight sense of guilt. That I was now studying a um a discipline that was about making more stuff. And so it It really kicked off this

enthusiasm or consciousness around how do you make Stuff that's environmentally considered. Cradle to cradle. Cradle to cradle, yeah. And Bill McDonald's book. Wh also came in around this time.

was hugely influ influential. Natural capitalism kinda came around in this time. These There's starting to be this this other way of thinking about how we can see things in the planet. And certainly

I y feel a responsibility as a designer Because you're Pretty close the origin to those things. Sometimes you don't decide the strategy of hey, we need to make this product, but you're definitely in it.

What's the whole life cycle of a product? And so Um with Crit Buns I actually delayed The launch of that for six months. Because I was trying to find

A foam that was environmentally considered. And I called everybody. I sh I was Talking to people and The Midwest making

Fam out of soybeans. At one point. I found a woman in England who started to make plastic out of bubblegum that you'd scrape off of the sidewalk. Um but I s couldn't find anybody that made a foam that was appropriate for the product. So I decided to go forward with the product.

And Um that sparked This other idea which was Okay. Um I've learned two things from this.

A the foam doesn't exist. And B. There wasn't even a good source to try to find the foam in the first place. Right, like Amazon was starting to really emerge at this time. And it was so easy to find a book on Amazon or like content.

I was like Why isn't there a site where you can find sustainable materials? I talked to some of my classmates that we had graduated at this point. And whether in architecture or fashion design or package design or industrial design.

There was a growing consciousness around We want to feel good about the things that we're making. And so I realized I'm not a material scientist, maybe I'm not gonna invent a foam. However I know how to make a website.

So what if I started a site that would allow any designer to connect with the sources of sustainable materials, whether it's bioplastics or You know, reclaimed glass or

partnered up together a buddy named Matt. And We created this for the website. To help solve our own problem.

of having access to sustainable materials. And Um You know, the site started in in it was this combination of ecology and in intellect, so we called it ecollect. And it was basically Google for sustainable materials.

And we'd find manufacturers around the world and we'd plug them into the system and I was basically like a really high end search engine and community for people who cared about this topic. So we slow down crit buns. to work on this website. You know, the the thing is that the the product remained

I had uh figured out manufacturing abroad. Um The Crippon's website was up. It was getting press at this point from around the world. It's getting blogged about. I was shipping orders out of my garage. This um at this point I moved to San Francisco. My garage became Cripan's headquarters.

And it got into some of the big catalogs in the US. One of them's called solutions catalogue. S like I don't know. Hundreds of thousands of homes.

And I had these orders flowing in like My garage, I had to employ some friends to come help pack up crip buns, these orders of hundreds at a time. It was insane. Um great learning experience. And um Yeah, in fact him.

Something I brought for you today. You kidding. I have One of the original pairs. For you, my friend. Amazing. This is incredible. Thank you so much. Oh my God, look at this. Very welcome. Critbuns. A seat cushion for artists and designers.

For the love of the crit. Then on the back. We've got Buns T M. These buns approved for use on hard surfaces. Buns not a life saving or flutation device.

Good. Good note. They're intended solely for cheek to cheek comfort. Amazing. Thank you.

And you get the story on the the back of the label. Oh yeah, here we go. The Cripon story. Hours of critiquing from the cold, hard, dirty floor gave a young design student. More than a sore bum.

Provided the inspiration for a better way, Colin. A seat cushion offering day long comfort and cleaner pants to art students worldwide. The name and shape. They originated from the charcoal bun prints students left behind on metal stools and hardwood floors. Wcribuns dot com.

The term crit. Slang for critique is the presentation of students' artwork before professors and peers. And is a staple of every art and design school experience. Wait a minute. My favorite part. So you've got Pat Spending, trademark copyright.

Two thousand five. Zero six juice studios. L C Critiqued in USA All Rights Reserve, drop us a line, highbrow. At Cripbuns dot com.

Printed with soy ink, approved by the C B B O D. I don't know what that is. And then you have a bun shaped Barcode. On the back. For scanning.

This is great, man. Can see how it's going to be. It is pr already pretty soft. Think I'll I will save this for my traveling hard surface experiences. Thank you. You're very welcome.

So Cripon's sort of is slowing down, but um It's funny, every so often I still get an order. I still go down to the garage. Still. Still.

And I still pack it up and ship it out. You know Life's changed quite a bit since then. Um but it's it's a great reminder for me of of like Yeah.

Yeah, just hustling of trying to get stuff done of like The enthusiasm. And the um Yeah, exuberance of of bringing an idea to life. Like it was a rush. And then you go from physical

to digital, what did you learn from the E collect. Experience. And this might be hard to understand now, but if you

Go back. ten plus years around two thousand seven, web two point oh it's happening on the internet. And Revenue is not cool. Right. It it's crazy to think about it.

Web C point O revenue wasn't cool. Eyeballs were cool. Traffic was great, but it did revenue didn't matter. And so Unfortunately we subscribe to that as well with Eco Act and our service is free and Um We didn't make any money on it. We bootstrapped the whole thing. And never took investment on it.

And the the one thing that we did innovate on that actually did make money for us is We call it the green box. And the green box was basically like a physical magazine that we shipped out. On a quarterly basis. That allowed people to build an actual materials library for themselves.

So we'd ship ship actual samples with these beautifully designed placards that gave you all the information about it with a special integrated hook. So you can imagine a whole wall of materials that you'd have in your design studio. Or your design team in house or consultancy, whatever the thing was, or even at design school for materials library. And that did all right. Except it was so laborious. I'd be down in the garage like

zip tieing things together and had design all these cards and then get the stickers and then like It just it took way too long, versus on how much we made. Um And so around this time I also have a day job.

My day job was I got a fellowship. Um from a book publisher called Chronicle Books. Yes. And they had a fellowship, which is a six month program for recent graduates.

Typically for graphic designers, they introduce one for industrial designers. I'm thinking, Oh my God, this is perfect. I've got a graphic design background as well. Chronicle makes beautiful. Beautiful books.

Their books are Like objects, right? They they really What I learned there was uh about the importance of detail and craft. Now by fellowship, I mean that sounds like Like you're given a stipend to

Pursue your art. But are you Also It was like a glorified intern. Glorified intern. Yeah. Much more attractive when you call a fellowship. It is. Much more desirable. And it worked. And I got that role for six months and Um had a great time there.

Um really Got to work along some some World class graphic designers. So that's how you're paying the bills while you're offering this free service. And Um

I I eventually get a a full time offer and I take it. And so I'm there doing industrial design work working on on packaging for for high end books. So they did Um the book for George Lucas on Star Wars. And I got to design the

You know, the really high end. Okay, so this book was huge. Yeah, it was like twenty pounds. Like one of those really thick coffee table books.

Um did uh package for Hugh Hefner. He did a book on the centerfolds, every centerfold since nineteen fifty four, I believe. starting with Marilyn Monroe. And so I got to design this um uh A custom weather briefcase. That this book came in with the blind emboss of the um The Playboy Bunny on the front?

Anyway, there's a lot of cool projects there. But at a certain point. E Collect was growing. And I realized it needed more m my full time. Efforts.

And so I I made a decision. I said, you know Um I need to Either stick with his job, which is getting very comfortable at that time, or

I need to take this plunge into to really doing the startup full time. And so Um I quit my job. Two thousand seven, two thousand eight. My job to do E collecting Critbuns full time.

And around this time the rent goes up in our apartment. And it's around this time that my former classmate Brian Chesky moves in with me to be my roommate. And this is foreshadowing another major event. In my life, but we won't get there just yet.

Um So Make this plunge of stepping into Ecolic. Now all this while I'm now living in San Francisco.

And Since high school Since the first dot com. When I was living in Atlanta.

I would come home every day and I would be enthralled at the stories. That I was reading about of all these internet companies that were starting. You had um. you know, eBay and Amazon and Yahoo and Site.com and Lightcoast and like there was so much

Entrepreneurial spirit. And I had this I had the sense that one day I I wanted to run my own thing. I didn't know what it was gonna be. Maybe it was A gallery or something, who knows if it was like a uh what kind of business it would be. And so Chronicle was my path out to San Francisco, which is where I always wanted to be'cause That first dot com all paths led back to the to the Bay Area. Oh, for sure. Right.

And I'm like, Well that seems to be the place to go if you want to get an idea off the ground. And so I finally moved out there. Uh I bring Crypons with me. Bring the Ecolect concept with me. Yeah, I'm living in San Francisco.

And During RISD. I I had this This radar on in the back of my mind. that people that I met with friends that I made

I sort of like trying to find Somebody else. With some more aspirations that I did. Somebody else who may want to co found something with me in the future, one day. And I could be a partner in a business of some some kind. And so

At the end of RISD there were Yeah. I felt I would just absolutely love to start something with.

The guy at the top of the list was this guy named Brian Chesky. We got to know each other through sports on campus because I ran the basketball team, he ran the hockey team. So we got to know each other. Via sports. And there was one project that we had together.

In industrial design where Um it was for a client. in the the hair care space. And we got to reinvent hair care products like blow dryers and curling irons. And

For the final presentation. Brian and I went in. With This team And our concepts were so wildly different than everybody else's.

That I remember looking at him being like wow like This guy, when we're in a room together, we can do really creative things. And As the year went on and before we graduated, I just had this growing feeling that like

There's something special about this guy. He knew how to rally people together. He knew how to get them excited. uh he had his own project um around fitness That he got people to volunteer their time. To help.

to do design on and and marketing on. And I just remember being really inspired by him. And It's the night before graduation. He's about to move to Los Angeles.

I'm about to get you know. Um I was gonna stay in Providence to work on Critbuns. And I decided to invite him out to dinner to tell him How I feel about this. And so over a slice of pizza on Thayer Street.

I tell him I'm Bright I go Brian. I just want you to know, I think we're gonna start a company one day. And I think they're gonna write a book about it. And he kinda laughed it off. Ah, yeah, yeah. And Um he ends up going to Los Angeles.

I end up finding my way to San Francisco via chronicle books. And very quickly once I'm in San Francisco recognize that it is in fact An epicenter for entrepreneurship. There's so much activity going on around me, web two point oh's. Like the web is back.

And I've start calling him like Brian. I know what's going on in LA, but you gotta get up here. Like There's so much activity, so much action happening here. I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got some stuff going and like this went on for at least a year. of trying to recruit him to get up to San Francisco.

And so At a certain point the roommates that I was living with News out. I'm left with this three bedroom apartment. And I call him like Brian.

I've got a room available. It's now or never. If you are gonna move. This is the perfect window to come up here. I've got a room waiting for you with your name on it.

And I have to give them a lot of credit. He made a courageous move. He quit his job. He packed his life into his Honda Civic. And he drove from Los Angeles to San Francisco.

Became a roommate. I have to tell you, Tim, there was this incredible excitement in the air. Like it's like the band was back together. All right, what are we gonna do? Like What could we possibly create together? And this is the same week that I quit my job at Chronicle.

I've got Crippins and Ecolic in the background. We're gonna come up with something big together. Uh Brian and I. And that's when I opened the mail one day. That same week he arrives.

It's a letter from my landlord. It says Dear Joe. Urent is now Twenty five percent higher. And I run to my online bank account and I see that um

I actually don't have enough money in the bank'cause I have no paychecks coming in to make rent. Brian has the same problem. And suddenly our backs are against the wall. There's just like this dark, stormy cloud that forms over our apartment. All the enthusiasm's gone. Now it's just terror and fear. How are we not gonna get evicted next month? We need to make the rent check. And that's when I'm sitting in in my living room one day. that week I've got my laptop open and I'm looking at the website for a design conference for industrial designers coming to San Francisco. Yeah, two weeks later.

And it says in big red letters Hotels are sold out in San Francisco. I'm thinking, Oh man, what a bummer. For somebody wants to come last minute, they've got nowhere to stay. And I glance over the the top of the laptop screen into the vast space of the living room. And start to think.

What if I pull my airbit out of the closet? And blow it up on the floor. We can host a designer for less than the cost of hotel. Maybe Make some money to make our rent check. So I email Brian.

And he loves the idea. We actually get two more airbeds. And we start to think through this experience. What if We offered airport pickup.

What if we gave them? A a map to San Francisco and a Bart pass at the subway. And we cook them breakfast in the morning. And so We created this concept called the airbed.

And breakfast. We made a website, airbed and breakfast dot com It was four pages pictures of us. Yeah. We talked about the neighborhood.

And we were so proud of our website except Who the hell on earth knew to go to Airbnbrefast dot com? Nobody's not exactly a high volume search term. Right. So one night We realize that we have a marketing problem. The conference has come up pretty quick. I mean you get the word out.

So we email the design blogs, the top design blogs that were covering the conference. And neither of us had really been on design blocks before other than Ecolak and Critbuns. And We just sent these

Emails out to like Press tips at Blink dot com. The next morning we came down, we opened our computers. And Tim it felt like Christmas.

There we were at the top of the design blogs with headlines like Need a place for the conference next this weekend? Crash with Joe and Brian in their sum aloft. Amazing. Ha

And this idea that we had, you know, a week or two earlier. Was now Being blogged about to the world. In the design community. And so they responded.

We need emails from all over the world, from Brazil, from England, from Japan, of people Dying to have one of these Airbeds in our living room. People started sending us their Winkedin profiles and the design portfolios and the resumes. Being like trying to convince us to pick them to be one of the lucky three guests.

Amazing. At one point my phone rings with an area code that was unfamiliar. I didn't answer it. I'm listening to the voicemail. And it's this guy. Named a mole who's telling me he's going, My name's a mole, and I just saw the airbend and breakfast concept and I have to stay with you guys. Call me back. I I I I I have to stay at the airbend and breakfast. Here's my phone number.

I've got like Um so I call him back. And he sends his design portfolio, checks out his You know, uh a grad student at Arizona State University studying industrial design.

And He becomes our first guest. And then we accept two other people, one woman named uh Cat, another gentleman named Michael. All were over the age of thirty.

Cat was uh a single A Sol Traveller from Boston. Uh, Michael was a forty five year old husband and father of five from Utah. And

There was all this excitement when the guests arrive. It's like, you know, we made sure the bed the airbeds were properly inflated, there was a mint on the pillow, like we cleaned the place up in advance. We stocked the fridge with OJ and bagels and You know, fresh eggs and Um We had everything ready to go.

I have to tell you, Tim. Uh the next couple of nights were just some of the most exciting 'Cause this thing unfolded that we didn't expect, which is that Yeah, we made some money on it.

More than that we we became friends with them. And we really got to show them San Francisco through the lens of of us. Through our favorite things to do, our favorite places to eat. So imagine the difference of this. You're at a conference

You can retire. Buy yourself to a hotel room. Uh that maybe is So much generic or Waxin.

general personality. Or you they came back to our apartment, which was lively. We're cooking dinner together, we're sharing stories from our days at the conference. It was like night and day for them. And they had such a good experience. We took them to our friends' house parties. Uh after the conference uh some nights we took him to the best burritos in the mission district, to the The farmer's market at the ferry building one morning.

And Um at one point We gave a great place to take visitors. It is very building. There was a Pachaka talk. Uh during the conference.

Who's a Wall Hut? Yeah, but Chaka, it's that uh it's that that format where you have twenty slides in in like four minutes. Uh right. And the slides just move and you gotta give a quick presentation. And so We gave a presentation about airbed and breakfast. In the moment that we're hosting people on Airbend and Breakfast, and we had our guests up there with us and talked about this concept that came together, you know, two weeks ago is now.

actually unfolding in front of us right now. And it was just Like really met a moment where the guests are now part of the presentation about themselves. And It was totally insane. That's step five of the

Crip buns AKA. Airbnb sales process. So I'll never forget When saying goodbye to them, the door quick closed. And I look at Brian and I'm like

Did we just get paid to make friends? And that, Tim, is when the gears began to turn. maybe there were other people like us who would also enjoy sharing their extra space. With people coming to their their town. I want

We want a local experience. And so we told My previous roommate Nate. Who I found on Craigslist. He was a computer science graduate from Harvard.

Uh who when he moved out, Brian moved into his room. Now Nate Story with him is We lived together for a couple of months. And at night we come home from our day jobs.

And we would work on our own projects in the living room. I was working on Crit Buns. He was working on his own startups. And it was remarkable. I'm looking over my shoulder thinking, Wow. This guy loves to work. We have similar work ethics. And I'm like, if I ever need a computer programmer.

I'm gonna call Nate. Little did I know that Nate was saying the same thing about me. Designer McCallin Joe. Ha ha So Nate moves out, Brian moves in.

And After this one weekend. Yeah, a couple months actually passed. And we didn't move on the concepts. We went home for New Year's.

That yeah. This is two thousand seven. So it happened in October. We go home for New Year's in in two thousand seven. And in there invariably people ask you, Hey How's it going? What are you working on? What's going on in San Francisco? Um like we're entrepreneurs and they go great.

W what are you entrepreneurian? And like didn't really have a lot going on. Crypto's is kinda their Equix kind of, you know. Uh struggling along. Um There's no funding at this point.

But I did tell people about this crazy weekend where we had these three guests sleep on airbeds in our apartment. And it was remarkable. What happened next? People either leaned in and went. My God, that's amazing. I would love to travel and stay with a local.

And the other half of people went, Oh my god, you're crazy? You got a stranger in your home? What were you thinking? And This like visceral reaction that

Was like Wow, like this really gets people fired up. In either direction. Maybe there's something here. So Brian and we come back in January. Brian comes back, he he's from New York.

Upstate. He comes back and um We should we had similar experiences. He's like, Yeah, I told people about it and they either loved it or hated it. And we're like, Yeah, like

Maybe we s Maybe this is the idea though. We should expand on. So like okay, we know we need Real

Programmer. So I'm like, Well, I'm gonna call on Nate. So I get a drink with Nate. I tell him about This crazy weekend with these three guests. Nate loves the idea. He's like, Wait. We can use the internet to get people offline.

Back into the real world with each other. It's like I would love to spend my time on this. So At this point we think the big opportunity is A website.

For conferences. For people to sleep on airbeds and living rooms. This is Turns out it's a very narrow market. We did not know this at the time. So

Our logical next step is what's the next big conference coming up where hotels will sell out? Well Turns out that right here in Austin. Every March. It's quite a large conference.

Called South by South West. It also happens to be the place. We're some preeminent tech companies. went to launch and took off like rocket ships, including Foursquare and Twitter and some others. What year was this?

Two thousand eight. We're like We're gonna build the next version for South by South West and This is gonna take off just like the others. So

Nate hunkers down with us. We start to code out the next more robust version of the site. Becomes more than just four pages. And we pull all nighters for like two weeks. And we launched just in time for South by South West. And all this excitement, all this energy. Tim, we got a total of

Five hosts. Two reservations. I'm no mathematician, but that ratio doesn't sound favorable. Well One of the reservations was us. Ha

It's actually Brian. And Um Brian stayed with this guy here in Austin. In Tien Dong.

And He had everything laid out. Yeah The pillow and the towels and the mints and some like Um

Some Soup cooking in the background. He's a great host, right? He's taken really seriously. Yeah, this time we're going to Like you you It was just a a classified service, right? You came and you paid somebody on arrival.

And Um Brian tells the story that He forgot to go to the ATM machine. And so

He And He goes through the whole night and wakes up the next day.

And the host has to awkwardly ask him, by the way. Where's my money? Brian forgets to get the ATM, another night goes by. And at this point the host is like what kind of joke is this? These guys just make a website to free load accommodations when they travel. And so Um

Brian eventually got to the ATM and paid him, but he said that that experience was incredibly awkward paying somebody cash in person inside the their home. It's like Just not a great experience. So afterwards. You know

It was not a successful launch whatsoever. I think we got one mention on Mashable. Like It was dismal. Um and we debrief on the whole thing and we we realized

We're getting emails from people who are like, Hey I want to s stay in a home. But there's no conference in the city. How do I use your service? And so we we realized something, well maybe this is more than a conference website, maybe this is just a travel website.

And what if we got rid of the awkwardness of payments in person and allowed people to pay with a credit card in advance online? And we just remove that whole awkwardness from the customer experience. And in doing so, we're like wow, if we did the tran the transaction online, we could take a small transaction fee. And a business model was born. Um so at this point.

Nate needed a little bit more enthusiasm to get back involved in in in the c in the concept. Uh of the three of us we all balance each other out really well. Nate's the pragmatist of all three of us. So he

You know? helps ground us in reality and and progress and and shipping things. Well sometimes Brian and I can be have our head in the clouds and and and really dream Um it's a perfect balance. And

Uh Nate. Need some convincing that the Can actually work. So in the summer of two thousand eight. We realized that we could use

um some kind of event to give this thing a spark. For this thing to take off. And If you remember back in two thousand eight, what everybody was talking about Especially in the summertime.

The year of a presidential election. John McCain. versus Barack Obama. And Obama was attracting these Historic

record breaking crowds. He spoke in Portland to seventy five thousand people. And It was identified in June. That the DNC, the Democratic National Convention, later that August. Um

There is going to be a bit of a problem. The basketball arena of twenty thousand seats to Invesco Stadium, which had a hundred thousand seats. To see Obama speak.

There lies a problem with the amount of housing that exists in Denver. They have twenty thousand hotel rooms, most of them were already taken up by delegates. And The headline started to read Housing Crisis impending on Denver. the mayor started to hold press press conferences to say he might open the city parks for people to pitch tents'cause there was nowhere to sleep. So we recognize and say, Wait, what if we relaunched in time for the DNC so we can ride the coattails of all this press to gain awareness for our

The next iteration of So Nate love the idea. We hunker down, we spend the summer rebuilding the site with online payments. And the ability to travel anywhere at any time.

For Nate. Nate needed to know that there was Some reliable you know, mechanism to create awareness on the horizon. 'Cause to build a marketplace

Without any awareness is like You know. Difficult to say the least. Um so

We hit the ground in Denver. We Mm. I remember we we built a website This shiny new version of Airbnb and Breakfast and We get on the phone with press trying to pitch him. Like we had no idea what we were doing. I'm on the phone with C like CNN.

And they basically hang up on me. I've experienced with that from some other projects in the past. Um so I'm like I'm just gonna keep going. And S W Squared plus W C equals M O. Beautiful.

So What we learned what what we started to do is actually contact local bloggers in Denver. Like CNN's not gonna answer a call, but a local blogger Love the story'cause it was Of their neighborhoods and

Um it was very human oriented of Denver residents opening their homes to support other fellow uh Obama supporters. Um And so these blogs that write about it.

And it turns out That's where like the newspapers look for story ideas. So then the newspapers wrote about it. And it turns out that's where the local T V broadcast looks for story ideas. So then we get a call from NBC. Wocal affiliate. And when MBC does a story

CBS and ABC shortly follow. So then We've got the Denver Press covered. Turns out That's what the boulder press looks to for story ideas, and be started to m become a regional story.

That's what CNN looks to for story ideas. So within a matter of about

Two to three weeks. We went from zero listings in Denver to eight hundred people sharing their homes. Wow. Just through this awareness through press. Again, we had no money. Like there was Like go buy online ads, like this is all just word of mouth. Like The press talking about us.

And then we get the call from CNN. And there's this funny moment where Brian and I are doing a live interview. In her living room. On a laptop. Through like Skype or something.

And We have We're sharing like earbuds. And we're like look like we're conjoined to each other'cause we're sitting so close. And we're doing this live interview with this guy, Errol Barnett, on CNN. And talking about this

Website and what it means to people to be able to stay in a home. For anybody going to the D and C And It was and then when you'd have a CNN story, that's what international press looked to to create stories. So then Lamont picks this up and The Guardian. Um

And press out in Europe. It was just amazing. To see What happens when an idea or a story starts at the smallest nugget? And works its way up this chain to becoming an international story in a matter of

Three or so weeks. Amazing. Because I remember during Cripons, I read his book, All Marketers Are Liars. Mm-hmm. And I remember something

Right, it's like purple cow. It's like make something that's distinct enough that people wanna talk about it, that's differentiated enough. And I feel like that concept was imbued into

Like the early days of the company. Certainly into Crypt Buns. into Ecolic and and definitely into airbend and breakfast at the time. And surely enough, I watched it happen in front of me, making something that people want to talk about. Go from a A local Denver blogger story too.

International press. So is it s is it safe to say would you consider that the Mm. First Or one of the first major successful milestones. Yes, because we had um a

a few hundred people staying on the site that weekend, including us. We gotta go to Denver. So Nate was busy. Yeah, Nate was really busy. So we had to divide responsibilities. There's just three of us. Nate's doing all the coding, Brian's handling all the press, and I'm handling all the design and the customer service. So let me hit pause. And let me ask you. Would it make sense?

And we can we can certainly decide on the fly here. But we've got about Probably got like close to three hours. Would it make sense? To have this be

Part one. And then follow up with a part two. Oh. What do you think of that? We don't have to We don't have to. But we could. What are your thoughts? Um

I'm open to it. And and record another time? Yeah. So I'm just thinking, like this is totally yeah, we'll s we put on the cliffhanger? This is I think this is a good cliffhanger. Okay, so then I'll say Yeah. Okay, go. No no no no no go for it. Yeah. However I I mean because this like this deserves a round too. So so we had a so we had a few hundred people actually using the service. Brian and I split up responsibilities. Nate doing his coding. Brian's Doing all the press.

I'm doing all the customer service from my cell phone. And we have this incredible weekend. Where our marketplace is working. But you won't imagine what happens next.

Ooh. Dot dot dot. Okay. Amazing.

No, this is perfect. This is absolutely perfect. Uh so to be continued. Uh In the meantime. Is Sort of a a a

Temporary. uh tie up of of part one. Is there anything that you would like people to take from This this first chronology that we've walked people through.

Any ask of the audience recommendation. Suggestion. Uh that you would like. I think any time that you introduce a new idea into the world there's

There's Bound to be somebody. Or many people who reject it. So I think rejection is inevitable any time you're trying something new. In fact I'd say if you're not getting rejected, you're probably not Trying anything new.

Pushing f hard enough on something new. And my advice would be That equation for me was was just a way to reframe Rejection as an opportunity to keep going, move on.

And so my advice for everybody watching right now is that you know, the gift of an entrepreneur is to reframe things and any time there's a rejection that you face, turn it into an invitation. Turn it into an invitation to keep going. And you can say yes or no. You don't have to. But you at least create this opportunity to

Yeah. To persevere to g to continue going forward. And for me, every all the stories I've shared so far. From the senior prank. With the intercom system through to Critbuns.

Three days. uh the beginnings of Airbnb. are reframing every no Into a Cool, that person didn't like it. I'm gonna keep going until I find somebody that does.

And also something At least that I see from the outside looking in when you're sharing all of these stories and experiences is that you're also over time by exposing yourself to rejection and reframing Learning to in some way seek out discomfort as opposed to avoid.

Discomfort. And That's that's one thing that also. comes up for me. And

On top of that, the fact that and why I I'm bad. So excited that We were able to get together to talk about some of these many of these stories, which is of course just a a a portion of your many life experiences.

Is that people are already familiar at this point with Airb Airbnb in all caps, right? magazine covers. Yeah one of the most successful Startups.

in the world, uh one of the fastest growing startups of all time, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I think it's it's Easy because as humans we want to take Shortcuts and

create stories that are easily graspable, to think of that as Idea execute success. Like it it just But there's so much.

contributing to that and so many diverse experiences. that yes you had, but in some ways you also helped to engineer And uh I think that's inspiring. Right.

It wasn't the byproduct of this immaculate master plan that required you to be Elon Musk times ten. That you executed over a two week period and then you have an empire. No, that's not That's not how it unfolds at all. If people think we woke up and Airbnb was just Created.

out of thin air. That w couldn't be further from the truth. And I hope if any there's any takeaway from the stories that We've talked about today is that we're going to have a lot of th There's just a long lineage of trying things, bumping into walls, getting rejected. f like failing, reframing that failure into learning and trying to continue forward. And so by the time

Airbnb came around. It was like I'd been in the gym of entrepreneurship for many years. So It's like you don't wake up and just run a marathon all of a sudden. But

No, it does that. You train for it. And so by the time it's ready for race day. your body's conditioned for it, and your muscles and your system, your nerve like everything's ready. It's for you to go run. twenty six plus miles.

And I think entrepreneurs entrepreneurship is the exact same way. And I think it's a misconception when people look at the magazine covers and they they read about the stories of a successful company, they think, Wow, like People started that. It just They built it and everybody came.

That couldn't be further from the truth. And like I think Field of Dreams is probably the worst movie to ever happen to entrepreneurship'cause it created this idea like, Oh wow, if you build it, they will come. I can tell you if you build it, they don't come Um It It takes this incredible

Perseverance and sometimes irrational belief in yourself. to bring something to life in the face of a lot of adversity and a lot of people. Saying it can't happen. Um And so

I hope if there's any takeaway from the stories that I shared today, it's that The simple act of spotting an opportunity. Coming up with the original solution. And then taking that third but hardest step. Of

Putting something into the world of trying something. Doesn't have to be the big idea. It's just about Being in the gym and doing a rep.

The gym of entrepr entrepreneurship. You're doing like curls or something like that. It's just getting in the habit. of those three things. You spot an opportunity, you come up with a original solution, and you put your idea into the world. And the more you can do that. The better you are at spotting the next opportunity.

And Airbnb just happened to be a part of the lineage of all the things I've told you that happened before it. Can you Layout. The equation one more time.

And what each letter stands for. Absolutely. S W squared. Plus W C Equals M O. And what the stands for.

Is that when you introduce a new idea to the world. Some will love it. Some won't. Plus. Who cares?

Equals Move on. Keep going until you find the people that do love your idea. All right, Joe. Amazing. Where can people say hi to you online?

find you, where can they learn more about the company and anything else that you might want to mention? I'd say go to AirB dot com. And if you want to connect with me, you can Um follow along at on Instagram at Joe Gebbs. On Twitter.

And certainly uh Cripons is out there too. Ha ha. And uh For everybody who's watching, listening. Uh we will have links to crit buttons.

Joe Gebs. uh and all affiliated links, resources and so on for everything we talked about in the show notes as per usual. At team.blog forward slash podcast. Thank you everybody for listening and Ciao.

Thanks for hanging, man. So much fun. Super fun, Tim. Thanks for having me. Dot dot dot. To be continued. To be continued. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun for the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share The coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up.

in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite. of goodness before we head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Legal Zoom, which has been a longtime sponsor because I've seen it help so many different businesses, hundreds of thousands of businesses of yours as listeners, and even including some guests on this show, such as WordPress lead developer and automatic founder, Matt Mollenwick. LegalZoom is a reliable resource that more than one million people have used to successfully launch and run businesses. LegalZoom has been helping people take care of their dreams and legal responsibilities. Gotta protect those dreams, folks, for more than 16 years. They're not a law firm. but they have the resources to keep you on the right path, including advice from their network of independent attorneys all at your fingertips. Whether you want to take your business to the next level or take control of your family's future with an estate plan, for instance, that's actually one of the places I started with LegalZooms, looking at wills and so on related to estate planning.

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