Stasher and Modern Twist: Kat Nouri

Hey, it's Guy Roz, and first of all, I want to thank you for being one of the very first ever subscribers to How I Built This Plus. It really means a lot to us to have your support, and we are really curious what you think about it. Your feedback could have an impact on where we go next with this new offering from NPR, like which other NPR podcasts we start offering a sponsor free edition of, or what are the benefits we start providing, and whatever else you want to tell us about what you like and what we could do better to fill out the short survey, go to npr.org slash subscriber survey. Again, that's NPR dot org slash subscriber survey. And thanks. Oh

I had Vertigo twice in my whole career. Yeah. Um one time was when I was on Shark Tank. Some of the judges are not that nice and if you don't know your business inside out, they're gonna eat you alive.

But what you got out of that was huge. Visibility. Did you see? U an immediate impact on sales? No. No.

From NPR, it's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz and on the show today how Cat Nuri built a better baggy out of silicone. Start at Stasher. A storage brand that wants to get single use plastics?

Out of the kitchen. My wallet? is a ziploc bag. I keep some cash, a few essential credit cards, and my driver's license tucked in a ziploc. Sandwich bag.

Every few weeks the bag gets tattered and I switch to a new Ziploc. I started using the Ziploc wallet last summer when I spent a few days at the beach. It seemed like the most efficient way to keep my cash and cards dry in my swimsuit, and guess what? It worked. Sure, everyone laughs when they see it. Just the other day when I pulled it out to pay my barber, he sarcastically asked me if my Ziploc wallet was made by Prada.

Now Imagine a world Before Ziploc we'll call it. B Z.

nineteen sixty eight. That was the year Dow Chemical introduced the product to grocery stores. All of a sudden, sandwiches and carrot sticks and apple slices could be kept separate inside lunchboxes. The problem is that we started to use a lot of them. We still do.

And ultimately. That's not a good thing. Because plastic is a huge environmental problem. There's too much of it, and it's finding its way into our oceans and into our bodies. A 2019 scientific study found that the average human will ingest as much as 40 pounds of plastic.

In their lifetime. Microplastic that floats in the ocean, in seafood, in the air, in sand, it's all around us. Only a tiny sliver of the plastic we use gets recycled, less than 10% according to the EPA. That little recycling symbol on your single use water bottle? It's basically nonsense.

So over the past two decades More and more social entrepreneurs have been trying to figure out how to reduce plastic. One potential solution is in a polymer called silicon. It has properties that act like plastic, but is more sustainable and lasts much, much longer. And Kat Nori, a parent of three, who packed a lot of lunches, realized that Like many of us?

She was using a lot of disposable baggies. Cat had a small business that made home goods out of silicone. Things like placemats and coasters, so she had some experience with the product. But could she figure out how to turn that silicone into a Ziploc like faggy? Well, if you've heard of her brand Stasher, you know the answer is yes. She did figure it out, but it would take a lot of work to convince people to buy the bags.

Stasher bags are expensive. One sandwich sized bag might last several years, but for the price of one? You can buy 120 Ziploc, which is an important part of the story because in 2020, Cat actually sold Stasher to SC Johnson. the company that happens to make Ziploc.

It's a sign, perhaps, that over time, S. C. Johnson sees a future without single use plastic. How that acquisition happened. Well, if you listen to this show, you know there is a story behind it, and it starts with Kat. She was actually born in Tehran in Iran in the mid-1960s, before the Islamic Revolution. In the mid-70s, her dad decided to move the family to California to search for new opportunities.

He had heard that California's like heaven. He said, you know, California is so green and there's so much opportunity for us to have our own business and to start a new life together as a family, and you guys can get educated. Like you can all have the best education. and not like wonder what you're gonna do after school if there's work opportunity for you. And that was just something that was really important to him because he was three years old when he lost his mother and he was brought up by his Brother. In fact, when we What

My dad lost his father, but And his brother, who Um, my dad just couldn't stand living there anymore and being associated to his business where he sort of saw the shadow of his brother every day, but his brother wasn't there anymore. And that was such a blow to my dad that he pretty much like picked us up and said, We're packing up our bags.

And we're going to California. And he moves you guys to the Bay Area. to Walnut Creek, California. First of all Why did he choose to go there. Did you have relatives in that area?

So we had an English teacher in Iran whose brother lived in Walnut Creek. And I remember to this day when he picked us up from the airport and driving over the Bay Bridge and it w we were two kids, my brother and I, my mom and dad. And I remember distinctly that the guy kept turning around and looking at us and We I kept asking my parents, Wha why is he like looking at us? Now of course, you know, when I was sixteen and I learned how to drive, we learned that that's what you do when you're changing lanes. Mm.

So those were kinds of the you know, and then Other things that I remember is that I remember right when we got here, we just didn't want to be apart from each other. And we went to Montgomery Wards and we bought Blankets and pillows, and even though we had three rooms and apartment. We all huddled up around a TV with the blankets and the the um pillows in one room together, the four of us. And none of us wanted to use the other rooms. We just wanted to be together because it already felt like we had like left our home

And now we were like gonna be in separate rooms. So it was just um We it was very lonely when we first got here. Hm. And h how did you all adjust to to life in America? Like Uh for like for example, what did your parents do for a living? Um my parents did um from the get-go, they started investing in property. And that was probably one of the best things they ever did. They started buying some real estate.

my dad was really um both of them, they were such a good team when it came to managing their money and working together to start a business and Um And just thinking of how they would support us, we never felt like we lacked anything as kids. Even if they felt it, we never felt it.

Alright, so you're ten year old kid. in the US. Um new country. Um, how's your English? at the time did you did you have s I mean you had gone to a Catholic school in Tehran, so did you already speak English?

You know, it's really um, that's a great question because When I got here I actually felt like I didn't speak English at all barely, and I remember that I used to s um mix up the word want and have and it was so difficult for me. When I got here I was in Fourth grade. And my parents put me into school and I remember Ray

pretty much didn't understand anything that the teacher said. And at one and I had really poor eyesight and my parents didn't know that because on top of not speaking the language, I didn't want to be Called four eyes. So I didn't want to tell them that I couldn't see. So, um it was a pretty miserable um move for me. I felt

Really um out of place and the kids laughed at me all the time. I felt very different. Yeah. And so I was kind of looking for an identity. And if anything, I I always say I turned into Allie Sheedy when I was in high school from Breakfast Club. Okay, that Allie Sheedy, okay. Uh-huh, where isn't she called the basket case in that movie? Yeah, I was pretty much that. And I was like the goth kid. Right. Um more like in her

Um In her looks where In her appearance where she was a goth girl that didn't fit in and didn't care to fit in, and really didn't care if you weren't her friend because only the people that got her were allowed to be her friends. Right.'Cause her character was she was she was a misfit, right? She didn't fit in to what And certainly. This is the eighties when you're going to high school.

I mean there was probably I'm assuming you went do you did you go to big public high school? Initially. Yeah. I went to North Gate in uh in Walnut Creek. And I was really different than everyone around me and they treated me that way and so you know how they say what happens in high school stays with you in high school or something like that? Yeah. Well, it definitely stayed with me. It scarred me for a long time. And I refuse to go to school because of it.

Mm. And um I was basically forging my mom's name. Um, and signing absent slips with my best friend and hiding in the closet every day. I used to hear my parents in the house. Well They were there and assuming that I was at school.

They found out that I wasn't going to school and my mom, um, intervened and she said, What's going on with you? And I said, I don't fit in and I don't wanna be here. I I don't wanna live this way. And so she said she talked to her sister. And she came to me and she said,

I think I found a solution for you where you can see Та вол із а мач биг. Then this little corner that you think is everything that the world has to offer to you. Hm. And I guess her sister, your your aunt, um, she lived in Sydney in Australia and

your mom sent you to live with her. To go to school there to finish out high school there, which m must have been Pretty transformational'cause I you came back to California and and eventually applied to Berkeley and and you got in. Yeah. And um I got in. I got in. Wow. Yeah, I wanted to be a lawyer.

And so that was like one of the biggest winning points in my life where I thought that my efforts could really change my direction. Right. And so you the so your idea was I'll gr I' graduate and I'll go to law school. But actually after you graduated Um

This is in the late eighties. You enter up. Um getting a job, a sales job. for I guess a subsidiary of of IBM or a company that w worked for IBM? Yeah. And you were selling mainly to to

Businesses, presumably, right? Yes. I I was selling the software and hardware actually at that point to other businesses. I mean the training that I got in in marketing and sales was Amazing. I remember walking into one company into South San Francisco with my sales manager and she said, Kat, you gotta walk into this account with me. And we walked in, she says, watch, they kick me out every time. And we walk in, they say, Hello, Mrs. Ms. Johnson. And she'd say, Hello, and she'd say, As you know, I'm Gail Johnson from IBM. And they'd say, Yes, we know, and you know where the door is. And she would walk me again and she'd say, I just want you to know you should never be afraid of that happen to you.

So you would You would walk in and and Say introduce yourself and and basically

Try to explain that. this you know, this com this hardware would be would would m make their business more efficient and you would Hopefully get You know, have a chat with somebody initially. Yeah, completely. You know, I was Sort of like

The entrepreneur in my background as an immigrant was coming out because my parents had had every business under the sun. So I started like starting I started interviewing the people that own the businesses. Like, why did you start this business? Like, because um I was dealing with distributors and um folks that had their own businesses of all sizes. And I remember I met this one guy, he was a Persian guy, his name was Farzad Naimi. And he he was working for um this Japanese company and I was there to try to sell him his system.

And I got to know him and he really liked my energy. And he said to me one day, He said, Cat, did you ever know that you're actually an entrepreneur? and you're working for a corporation. And it's funny how in your life most of the things that happen to you and that

you might take a chance on are always right under your nose. but you just don't sort of see them until somebody kind of like in a very simple way tells you that. Had you Had you I mean you were still pretty young. You were probably in your early twenties at that point, so Twenty five, you know.

twenty five. Presumably you you hadn't thought of yourself that way. Quite yet. I was lucky to have a job, is what I thought.

So the light bulb on for me that day. Wow, I was an entrepreneur. Hm. I mean you you were sort of inspired by that. that conversation of eventually you decided to leave

IBM and I I guess it was right around that the same period, this like the mid nineties, uh when you also got married, right? Yeah. Actually when I left IBM. I did get married right around right around that time, I would say, where I was sort of exploring different avenues.

Wait, what's your husband's name, by the way? Af Shine. Okay. So when when you and your husband Um I've seen Got married. You kind of from what I gather had this

this sort of period of time where you you wanted to start your own thing but you weren't quite sure and you you experimented in a bunch of different businesses at first I guess you you learned floral design. Did you get into the floral business at all? I did for a quick minute and I discovered that my inventory dies. What did you do? Did you did you you have a shop?

I had a corner spot. in front of the orbit room cafe. Um where there's a Whole Foods now in Upper Market,'cause we lived in San Francisco at that point. And I had a flower stand and we did weddings and catering and all that, you know, so um it was a nice little business but your inventory dying and then also your cash would disappear because

um you'd have people that were working the shifts, various people, and it had a big turnover of employees. So uh your cash would somehow like not be what you thought at the end of the day. So it w it was a tough thing and I moved on pretty quickly to other venues. The inventory dying just killed it for me. Yeah. the flower is gonna die. It it's gonna die. Quickly. Yeah. But uh my next thing was

something that took some money out of our pocket, which was the next thing. The next thing was I decided that I wanted to do an antique business because we met a couple in Mexico who had an antique business. and they lived in Ohio or something and they promised that they would send me this beautiful truckload of goods and I could sell them and start my own store. So the first step was that that they they sent you a truckload of antiques that That you paid for? Uh on consignment. Lessen to self. Never pay for something that you don't know that what you're gonna receive at the end of the day.

And so they said I just said just you know give us ten thousand or twenty thousand or whatever, maybe more. Yeah. And we'll send you a bunch of antiques and and uh you can sell them, start a business. Yeah, it was it I think maybe it was five to ten thousand dollars. And um I ended up getting stuck with it and They wouldn't take it back. And did you try to sell any of it? Did you pursue this in any way? What did you

What did you do? I I was stuck. I was stuck with the inventory. Nobody wanted that. It was just garbage. So did you at that point abandon that idea of of a tea business. I did. Yeah. And also I think during this time you were

You you had Kids it pretty quick succession, right? Yeah. And uh I I had three kids, all of them uh so they're They're now twenty four, twenty two, and nineteen, so

They're what, two to three years apart from one another. Yeah. So you've got kids at home and I guess at a certain point your husband

he decides to leave his job, he was an engineer, to start his own So his own business. Yeah. So he started his own manufacturing company in San Leandro. And by the way, what was his company what was his company? What w what were they doing? So they manufactured um test interface products for the semiconductor industry. And I don't know how to say that in an easier way, but it's a the test and burning industry f making um Receptacles and icy sockets. Which I don't know what that is, but Yeah, see exactly. Yeah. And I sold it.

Yeah. So he must have been crazy busy. So we were all crazy busy'cause I was in there with him. Right. I would literally bring my s my two boys, I drop one off and bring one to the back office and breastfeed them and have'em go to sleep and then go do their counting.

and then do my sales calls and then go change diapers and then go back and pick up the other one and then come home make dinner. I mean it was just crazy. I I ha I actually felt like if I left his company that it would fall apart. 'Cause I had such a big part in helping. Hmm. But I guess I'm not sure. things got so stressful that you did leave. You decided like

Like I'm gonna take a year and and and be at home with the kids. Because it was too much uh for for both of you to kinda try to get this business off the ground and make it work. With little kids, I I guess. Well, surprisingly enough, I let go and they did just fine and I stayed home with the kids.

And I kid you not, out of all the things that I had done Staying home with the three kids was probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Yeah. I while you were from from what I I I I read while you were

you know, during this time, this this year that you took off. Um you would at nighttime when everybody's asleep it was quiet. You would he would just scour the internet for ideas like something that needed t some some industry something that needed to be disrupted. You clearly were looking for the next thing. Is that is that do you remember doing that? Yeah, so at this time I was like hanging out with a bunch of other moms.

that were really creative and they were taking their ideas to the market and figuring out ways to manufacture them. And I found it really interesting that I knew manufacturing and And I knew sails, but And I love beautiful products and I definitely had a sense for an eye for design. And I just

kinda connected the dots, like, how can I possibly come up with something that can go to market that I can manufacture. And sell to the public. And and you were just looking around. Just like doing Google searches and

I was looking around and I was tagging along with my friends that were doing shows at the San Francisco gift show. And that were manufacturing products and had agents and so forth. So I was learning from them and I was looking at different things to do and Um, my husband came home one day with this little box that was a Um it looked like a little Japanese anemone box where it had a hidden compartment. And

One of his Japanese customers had given it to him as a gift. And I remember when I would take a nap with my daughter, that she would go and she would take the pajamas after I folded them, put it under her pillow, and she'd throw it on the on the floor after I just folded it. So I thought, well, what if I came up with something that had a hidden compartment that we could hide her pajamas in? And we c we would call it like a PJ Pocket.

And it would look like a Japanese in a mini box that was hidden and then you flip it up and you put the Um pajamas in it. And that's how I actually came up with the name Modern Twist, which was the company that I came up with. So around this time, I I think it's about two thousand and five.

Tell me about how you came up with this idea. What But what's that? Yeah, w what's the origin story of that company? So, as I mentioned to you, I Um

Created this little PJ Pocket hidden. Product, but I wanted to come up with I I had a feeling that people could knock me off pretty easily with a sewn product. So I started searching the internet and you know, I was starting to think about from my days when I was at my husband's company where there was so much plastic waste. Like They would make parts and the part would only be like a tenth of the piece. And the rest of it would go.

on the ground and it would be wasted and then it would be thrown in the garbage. And that really sat with me and I kept thinking How can it and it w it had a translucency to it too, and I had a design um sense to me. And I thought there are all these plastic things out in the world. How can I come up with something that is more design driven, that performs better than plastic.

Hm. I want to take an existing material and rejuvenate it. When we come back in just a moment, how Kat grows Modern Twist into a company she's proud of. Until a trusted advisor threatens to walk away. And how that threat?

leads to her next company. Stasher. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. from NPR. Welcome back to how I built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2005, and Kat Nori has been looking to start her own business for a while. So after doing a bit of research, she decides to launch Modern Twist, a brand that sells tableware products made of silicone.

So I wanted to produce Place mats And table runners and coasters that were for the table for entertaining. that were made out of hand silk screen silicone that were beautiful to the touch that were super elegant and you could throw them in the dishwasher and they would last you forever.

The same for baby bips. You know, I wanted your baby bib to last you through four kids. Okay. I remember having a a silicone baby bit, maybe one of yours when when my little kids were little. What what was it about Silicone.

Controversy. about silicone. Some people say it's not plastic. I've read Tons of articles and researching this episode. Um There are lots of um or environmental organizations that say it is a plastic. The plastics industry calls it a plastic, but there are different

views on it. Some people say it's Not as bad for the environment'cause it doesn't create microplastics, some people say it anyway. First of all. Point of view why

was silicone. Better a better. Product than plastic. It was because it was durable. And it would last.

And I think that's half the issue about anything that we produce is that it ends up Deteriorating and going into our landfills and into our oceans. How did you um h how how much money did it take for you to get modern twist off the ground. I mean'cause I'm s there's lots of moving parts. You had to Design.

uh product, then you had to manufacture the products and then you had to do the marketing and distribution, et cetera. But let's just talk about the the the different stages that you had to go through. First of all, money. How did you How much money did you need to get off the ground? So I was kinda crazy with that, I would say that um

I started borrowing money against our credit cards. and I started borrowing money against our home and I probably went into debt for I gosh, I would say I probably took out a good Hundred thousand dollars. And And with that

Money. you what were the first products you were going to get Manufactured. So I first um produce the

Place mats. The table runners. And The uh coasters and the wine tags. Wine tags. I remember that was my first one. And

How did you get the a c you know? Knowing what I know about. You know, from certainly from intervening Yeah. Um with products like these, you usually start with samples.

Yes. Somebody to make you samples. So I would stay up all night. And I'd look for manufacturers that could produce what I needed. And I found a factory in China that was

really good at working with me to experiment, um To get it right. Huh. And I applied to the first Like the biggest show for gift.

for the gift industry that sort of like catered to the independent specialty mom and pop retailers. This is the New York The New York gift show, which is called now New York Now. And it was at the Javit Center? At the Jabit Center. Mm-hmm. Alright, so I'm at the trade show and I'm a buyer for I don't know bed bath and beyond or something. I don't know, I'm just making it up, but I see you.

I say, Oh, well what do you have here? Um to give me your pitch. Tell me why why should I buy your product? What was your pitch? I would basically say um this is one of the most innovative products in the marketplace and it's a hand silkscreen product that's been Um Made with love.

Um we handle screen it. We present the work of independent artists on the surface. And it's durable, it's heat resistant, and there's Nothing else in the market like it. And they would touch it and it was really the touch that sold the product. I mean it just feels like there's nothing else like it in the marketplace. Super soft and silky.

Alright, so I'm I'm at your booth, I'm like, wow, this is cool, I haven't seen this before. And uh what what uh yeah, well tell me what um s what do you sell on these And they were really expensive. And that was a problem. How much? I'm still you're making the pitch to me, I'm the sales guy for uh for the buyer, for a container, whatever something what what much.

I think at that point when we entered the market, maybe they were um I wanna say fourteen ninety nine each. Placement. Yeah. And then and I would say Why are they so expensive? I mean, I'm I'm at Bed Bath and Beyond, we're all out of the country, like I don't know. Tom can can you help me understand why they're so expensive? W what would you say? Make a then I take some water and pour it on the mat.

And I take an iron and I'd put it on the mat. And I take some crumbs and I put it on the mat and I'd say, nothing goes through it. It can withstand heat. You can throw it in the dishwasher and it'll last you forever. And they would buy it. Okay. And not in high quantities, it was always Like really cool high end stores. Right. Like the Momas, S F Momas of the World.

Yeah. These these museums obviously have gift shops, very influential gift shops. They had a Buyer there who bought some of these. Kit Dumbrowski was my first buyer and she said, you know, I like you and I like your product and they remained as some of my best friends to to this day. And uh um so

You walk out of there. Did you walk out of that trade show with A lot of s I mean It's a r a lot as a rel as a relative term'cause you're small business, but Uh, do you remember like

How how much money and orders you got from that? from that trade show. Um Probably I would say somewhere between twenty and fifty thousand on my first my first show and I remember calling my husband right when Kit walked away and she came in, she walked into the show at the last ten minutes of the show, and I said, Honey

I think I have something. The S F Mama. Yeah. And do you remember it if I'm focusing on a S F moment, because I don't think you sold a big

companies at that point. It was like small boutiques. Right. Exactly. And probably the San Francisco Museum of Modern Arts gift shop was the most influential store you sold to. Very much so. That there's visible visibility and it's a trendsetter. And and in in you know, in those first five Six years. Were you even able to get a

Uh uh a foot in the door at some of the bigger retailers, like c would they even answer your Your emails or calls like the the bed baths and beyond I don't know who who T J whoever was would W was that even something you were trying to do? Yeah. It was more like the Bloomingdales and the Sir Letabs of the World. Um Could you get into those places? No, it was very difficult to get in. Did you try? Yeah. And I got in and when I did get in

It was so minimal and the effort was so much. And the process for shipping to them took like an an employee of its own. Right. And I didn't have the manpower at that point. And honestly the independent designers or the independent retailers did so much more for us because they could explain the product in person. And so their sales volume was so good I didn't really need to be in those stores. Right.

Mm, this is really pre e commerce. E commerce was around, but it wasn't you know, quite what it is today. So you you still really depended on those stores. And and just to put this into context, I'm imagining by like two thousand ten. This is five years in. When you say you were doing really well.

That was probably a few million dollars in sales a year, right? Correct. It wasn't like twenty million dollars in sales. Like doing really. Probably the margins were low and it's not like I don't know, Bitcoin, right? It's like it's it's where it just exactly, right? It's

It's uh silicone products that there's a limited number of people are gonna buy it and then it lasts forever. They're not replacing it. Exactly. That was one thing one of the buyers turned around and said to me, You know what the problem with your product is? I said what? He says They last forever. So you buy it once.

you buy it once. And um You know we were I was doing really well. And when I say when I was that I was doing really well is that I didn't have to Worry about

Um having a few employees and paying myself anymore and affording a space. And by this time I had brought in a CFO. And he was working with me once a week and we would stay up from Thursday evening. He was like a part time CF. Yeah. He would stay up with me from Thursday evening. Everybody knew I had Thursday evenings for like 10, 15 years straight. Where Mike would come to the house. This is a Mike fake, right? This is Mike Fake. And he would come to my house.

And come upstairs, I'd have dinner for him, and he would just start digging in and he would he was like my everything. Cat, what are you doing with this retailer? Why are you just, you know, focusing on this one retailer that you're selling this skew to? Let's get rid of that skew. And at this point something else happened after I had met Mike. First of all, Mike Cleaned up my books. helped me get an SBA loan.

helped get our financials straightened out. Got inventory under control. And was s I don't even know how I would have done it without him, honestly, all the way through. Um, he was absolutely my pillar of strength. He was sort of a a consultant, right? I mean he was a part time CFO.

To help you kind of Map out things that you were not able to To see

I mean to be he basically had a perspective that you didn't have. Yeah, and he believed in me. I mean he had all the tools that I didn't have. Um, he uh he always joked that I paid him in Persian food. And he was my he knew I was that crazy entrepreneur that sort of like flew by the seat of my pants. And he was that very calm, cool cucumber. He never got excited about anything. And he never got overwhelmed by anything, and I really needed that.

Right. Your company your company Modern Twist would not become profitable for I think around seven years, if I'm if I'm right, which is I don't I'm not dismissing that. I think that's amazing. Like it but it took a while before it actually became profitable. A hundred percent. But even o over that period of time.

you know, up until it became profitable. It doesn't sound like you were nervous that it wasn't going to work out, or were you? Was there ever a point where you thought We gotta get make make it this profitable. I've been in this for Seven eight years and my God, I'm not Not making any money from this yet.

No, I didn't get antsy at all. I was making money by that point, and um everybody was making money. We were doing fine. But What happened at this point is that I met a friend of my mom's at a natural product show named Ahmed. Rahim. We know him, he's been on our show. Founder of Nini T. Yep.

Exactly. So I met Ahmed and Reem at a natural product show through my mom. And my mom was the nutritionist and she's super holistic and My passion was always so connected to food, and here I was producing a product that had to do with things that were at the table. But they didn't have to do with All this good nutrition that I loved and I was raised with.

And I started hanging out with Ahmed and and The organizations he was involved with. Be corporations. you know, at this point, you know, my mom's whole you know, holistic, you know

But Buddhist side kicked in of Are you just gonna take your s care of yourself and your family? I mean, this guy Ahmed is all about community and he's hanging out with all these organizations that are gonna change the world. Why can't you sort of like look into producing something that could have real impact? And at one point Ahmed turned around and said to me, I'm just not gonna support you anymore, be your advisor if you don't think of some other way. Um

to um produce something that actually has uh the ability to have change. So clearly you h wanted to you you started to think about Ways you could innovate or grow. And you had experience in silicone plastics, in silicone product. Um you and and it sounds like in your mind you started to think what else could I do with silicones? With silicone products?

Yeah. My aha moment was definitely um as I was trying to make a bag with Uh my my silicone product and with some fabrics with some friends of mine at Graf and Lance. We were trying to make like a handbag. Yeah, we were trying to like sew the silicone into a bag and then put a zipper on it. Yeah.

And they were beautiful, but then again I was going back into the industry that wasn't exciting me anymore, which was the, you know, the high end, you know, design industry. And I love design and I love the function of things, but I wanted something that actually could be consumed by the masses that could actually Make a difference and sell in volume. So just to be clear, you started by thinking, I'll make a handbag. for women or or men, whoever wanna but a but like a fashion. handbag.

Well, more like a makeup bag because it would be small and it would have a zipper. But when did you start to think, you know, this is actually like sandwich bags for lunch? For school lunches. when my kids would come back. With

You know, all these Wrappers and in their lunch boxes, yeah. single use bags and I'm like, what are we doing? Like Why is this happening in our community? Like where's all this going? Right.

And you're thinking yeah. landfill waste is from packaging, and that's usually from single use. Things. Right.

So so the thing about silicone is, from what I understand, and I'm not a I'm not an expert, like you or a a chemist, but it's basically it's It's made from natural materials as sand and rock and Exactly. And and there's different types of silicone, right? Because there there's some silicones that are that do have o chemicals and and other things in them to make them work, right? What's the difference between the kind of silicone that you were making and using and

Other silicone. If there is there? So you can put fillers and byproducts and chemicals and any kind of crap you want into silicone and make it cheaper. And if if you're using a platinum form of silicone and it's food grade, you're Definitely pay a lot more for the material. If free it's free of latex and phthalates and um plasticisers.

So you're making something that was food grade. After three years of experimenting, you finally come up with a The the bag. um the bag that you can sell is like a lunch bag. And this is gonna be a modern twist product.

That was the idea. Exactly. And you called them stasher bags right away? I called them stasher bags. That's right. And had and had you come up with that name? You don't wanna know. No. Just stash stuff in your bag. Yeah, you know, I hang around with a lot of people from the natural products world. They stash a lot of things, you know? Yeah. And they had a lot of influence and you know, when I was hanging out with them and they loved we loved the idea of coming up with something whimsical with a very heavy topic of plastic waste. And and that was Stasher? That was Stasher? And and and if somebody came to you

you would say hey. you use Ziplocks, this is gonna totally eliminate the need for that,'cause you just buy this And you've got uh a lifetime ziploc bag here. Exactly. And I was on LinkedIn again and I and I saw that people weren't getting that these bit they're like, what's the difference between like at this point But plastic free movement was nowhere yet.

Um And people were asking, well, what's the difference between like if I use a reusable, you know, a resealable bag than if I use your bag. So I had to really like get that across. I'm like, okay, how do I get the function of this thing? Because Here I was with a bag that was at that point when we were launch launching, it was ten ninety nine, so eleven dollar bag. Eleven dollar Ziploc. Exactly. It's a lot of Ziploc bags.

A cost going by like a Ziploc uh Pallet. No, not a palate, but yeah. So they didn't see the value of, you know, you have to give the consumer the value. And I'm like, Well, you could use it thousands of times, you can cook in it. You can freeze in it and you can use it. thousands of times instead of that and in and at the end of the day you would actually end up saving money.

But you could cook in it? You could actually what do you mean? Was that um airtight? Yes. It's that heat resistant, too. So basically I reached out on LinkedIn and I wanted to see I had a friend, her name was Laura Scher. And at that point she was another, you know, social entrepreneur and she said, Cat, there's this Really cool concept. It's called sous vide that's in the marketplace. Water cooking your food. Water cooking your food.

Container. In a heated like you could put it in a pot. And then you put a sous vide machine in a pot. And then you put your plastic bag and your food inside of that bag. And

And the taste of the food is amazing in it because all the nutrients stays in the bag and the taste and the moisture stays in there. So Sous-Vide's been like something that the French have been doing for a long time. So I reached out, I I was looking on LinkedIn, trying to see who the biggest sous- vide player was. So all of a sudden I see on my LinkedIn that Electrolux has bought a Nova. And I'm like, Electrolox just bought ANOVA. So I reach out to ANOVA and I'm like, I've got your bag for you. Innova is a sous vide company. Yeah.

And they were bought by Electrolux, so they were gonna ramp up quickly and be the number one. A Nova. A N O V A, yeah. By the way, no one except for people who are super food geeks are even gonna know the company, right? You've got to be a super food geek to have a sous-vide stick. But anyway, keep going. Absolutely. So um I reached out to them and this was really important because they helped me produce my first set of molds. I meet with them. And we get our first. biggest order from them.

How did you have the the capital to make the product because usually those places pay sixty Sometimes ninety days later. You gotta pay for the product. So there's a gap.

How were you able to to finance that? What happened is that Enova came Gave us. A big order, and Onova was already in target. And they needed a sous vide bag, and I had a sous vide bag for them.

So this was a way for me to get into Target. And I had I went to Target and I already had an initial meeting with them and they weren't into my idea at all. They weren't into it'cause your bags are too expensive, probably, right? Honestly, I think the real thing was that they didn't think anybody saw the difference between a reusable plastic bag. You know, who's gonna pay for your bag? So I didn't get an order from Target directly, but ANOVA gave me a great order and and I made a great deal with ANOVA where they had to pay for the molds for the productions because we didn't have them. Right.

And and and the bag would be would be like part of a kit? They would put it right next to their sous vide machine. In Target. Alright, so you Uh so you so basically this deal with Nova finances

The first molds. And um but it's a tiny market. I mean y you gotta hope that people it's it's people are gonna buy a sous vide. It's a tiny number of people, and then then you have to hope that they're gonna buy the bag so I can't imagine that it took off right away. I wasn't interested in that market necessarily. I was interested in the fact that people would get I had to educate people where the value was for this eleven dollar bag and people weren't getting it from our messaging that was on the packaging and I didn't know how to message the packaging. Right. which is why I decided to do Shark Tank.

After the break. How Cat gets her first bout of vertigo while standing up to the sharks. And her second bout? While sitting down with the buyers at Target. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

From NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2017 and Kat Nori is just starting to get traction with her new company Stasher. But she realizes that not enough people know about the advantages of using silicone bags over single-use plastic. So to get the word out.

She decides What else? To apply to Shark Tank. When I sent things to to Shark Tank, I didn't look like a small company. I look like somebody who had some traction.

And so when I did the submission, I was very um colorful and I had the tools to show them that it was a company worth looking at. And when they contacted him, they said, Okay. You're on. Presumably.

In 2017, you went on. Correct. Are you nervous? I had Vertigo twice in my whole career. Um, one time was when I was on Shark Tick. Mm. Next up is an eco-friendly alternative to plastic bags.

It made me so nervous to be judged by the whole world, like to actually put yourself out there, especially as a woman. And here I was. I had to go stand on my own In front of the whole world pretty much to judge me. Uh. I don't understand the advantage of the product.

And the product doesn't Get me excited. And I hope. But but here's the thing, you are going on. With a mission. I mean yes, you want to make money.

But like you were going on, you were saying, look Plastic bags? The zip top bags are really bad. People, you know, are throwing these away. I'm gonna solve this problem How could how could you even have imagined anybody would

Be mean about that. Shark Tank some of the Judges are not that. Nice and they'll shred and if you don't know your business inside out, they're gonna eat you alive. Cat, why haven't you put more about The environment and the plastic free element.

I agree, maybe that's something that we should definitely put on the packaging. If you told me that and you're one of my buyers, I definitely put it up there. Yeah, but this is good feedback on your side. This is your vision, you've got to be able to sell this away from you. Wait, Well, the one thing I knew was my business and they weren't gonna tell me how to do my business. And when it came to them questioning my business and telling me how to do it, I got a little offended and I got a little offensive and it brought My other side out. Can I ask you, you're a brand specialist, what would you do that would say that that is a better option, it's healthier. How would you do it differently? We can't do that here. We can't we invent anything. Look, Kat, we're asking you questions and you're coming back asking us a question instead, right? You're not saying I get it.

Or I made this choice because I do get it. I swear I do get it. But I'm just saying that I wanted to see what your point of view was. I don't wanna argue I'm not arguing. Or I guess t two of the sharks were considering teaming up an offer, but you did Get an offer from Mark Cubin. He he made he made you an offer. Mark made me an offer. Absolutely.

For four hundred thousand dollars. Um And uh and and and did you um In your mind, had you valued your company at that point? think it was something like I hadn't valued it myself, but I think they were valuing it like at two point five or something like that.

But he he made made you an offer twenty percent for four hundred thousand. You came back and said, I'll give you fifteen percent for four hundred thousand And he accepted it. He was gonna become an investor. Absolutely. Okay, so The Taping ends.

This is the part that a lot of people don't know. It doesn't mean it's a done deal. You still have to negotiate off. Camera. to get that money and you guys actually never close the deal.

He in in in the end he did not invest. In the end, we spent like twenty twenty five thousand dollars on the negotiations, and I really wanted to make it happen, but I wanted a deal that basically let me still run the company the way I wanted to, and I couldn't get that deal. And um I had to walk away.

But what you got out of that was huge. Visibility. And That airs in january of twenty eighteen, and did you see anything? Uh an immediate impact on sales. No, no.

Nothing. Yeah, we did, but I mean it wasn't immediate. It w it kinda trickled through time. Um, basically It gave us like a leverage. Um people would see it, one buyer would tell another. you would send it to a buyer. We started utilizing it as a marketing tool. And um I had one friend uh whose brother

Um had seen the show and he said, I don't care what anybody says, you're a complete badass, and I want you to run the company exactly the way you're running it. And here's a half a million dollars without any questions. So I took the money from my friend's brother. Yeah. And I didn't have to take the shark's money. Yeah. W one of the things I think is really important is i and I and I hope people listening to this, especially

Put PR people listening to this, who pitch our show. we get pitched a lot of things like My client uh just raised twenty million dollars. They they founded their company last year, and they've just raised$25 million. Can they be on how I built this? And the problem with that pitch is that

There's no story if you rate if you start your business last year. But there's no story to tell and raising twenty million dollars is great. Congratulations. It doesn't mean you're successful. Yeah. It doesn't mean Let me see what you do with that money, right? You didn't actually raise a whole lot of money, but um but there's a There's a myth there, I think.

entrepreneurial world that raising money is like a badge of success. Guy living in the Bay Area? There's a a this big um perception that VCs and raising money is like your route to success.

And one of the biggest things that I have seen in my own friends and from what I had studied has always been that There's no such thing as free money. You can't run your company the way you want if you take someone else's money. And I wasn't about to let anybody ruin my vision because I wasn't I didn't. start this company for profit. I started this company so that it would support

The change that I wanted to see in the world. And if I was gonna do that, the VCs were probably gonna tell me, that's a really great thing, but You can't donate, you can't run it this way, you can't hire that person, you can't grow as slow or as fast as you want. I didn't want to grow fast for someone else. I wanted to It the company went explosive because we were authentic and we were transparent. Not because, you know, we were trying to like, you know, sell something to someone because, you know It was just some gadget that

was gonna scam someone. Right. Yeah. Um Wa once you had

Visibility from Shark Tank. Did that. help you get into Bigger stores like Target, for example. Is that is that how How you got into Target? So um we got into Target because

What happened is that I Through LinkedIn. found um the brokers that represented larger companies and I found out

Who was um repping some of the brand that I really um admired out there. Companies like Swell that had done a really nice job of going to market. Yeah, been on the show, yep, sure. And had eliminated plastic waste through their bottles. Yeah. And when I went to Target the first round and I got a no They didn't see the value in a$11.99 bag.

Because they didn't see that you know, they couldn't see through the marketing or through The marketplace, the reception. and the perception of the value of the product. And um it was a category maker. It wasn't a Hard container.

It wasn't a Possible. Single use plastic bag. So where did it fit? Did it fit in the essentials or did it fit in housewares?

And what did you say? Well I found out. Through people that What you get in essentials is traffic. And what you get in housewares is really you might get an in cap.

But the actual volume in sales is less is lower. You say you realize you want to be in the other Other part of the store. I want it to be where I could show the volume of sales to target so that I would Have

you I would have, you know, I would stay. But you say but w yeah, but when you say you weren't prepared the first time, what did you do the second time to make the case and to convince them that they should carry this product? So the second time I took my um Head of product development and engineer Paul with me. Two. my target pitch for the second time.

We get to Minneapolis. And I fly in with an end cap. My team worked on the end cap for Three or four months. Shelf, right? It's a promotional shelf that has information about your company and

A beautiful display. So you brought that with you? Like you you My team worked on it for like three or four months and I ended up standing at my hotel with no end cap that night. Oh it didn't arrive.

Okay. So I go to sleep and keep telling myself, I got this, I got this, it'll be there by the morning. In the middle of the night. I Wake up. sideways and I can't even move.

And the minute I come to stand up, I throw up. and I have major vertigo. There I was. And I had to not only look good. I had to go do a presentation in

The account of my life. And I mate tilted my he' head sideways and I took a shower and I went downstairs and my brokers and Paul were there and they all like wheeled me in pretty much. And I sat they sat me in a chair. before the buyer walked in.

Yeah. And I had had a video that we had made. I went to LA and we made a video about What plastics are doing to our planet. and how it's affecting.

human health because We're eating the fish that are Eating the microbeads. And that our bodies are being consumed with plastic, and by twenty fifty we would have. No fish in our oceans.

And this video was so powerful. We all had tiers in our eyes. And the buyer said to me I I represent a category of essentials where there's a lot of this where I feel like You know, why isn't there a more innovative solution?

To what's going on on our planet with plastic waste. And here you are, and I'm gonna do everything I can to make sure you succeed. And I was completely stunned, and he said to me, I don't even know what you would be like if you felt good. I mean That the video that she presented. Um Uh did you

I mean that must have been expensive to produce, right? I mean that was an investment. You had and you had like a production team come up with a video that showed The impact of plastics. That was the the pitch you made. And okay, so so you make the case to target and they say, All right, you're in? We hit'em on our mission. And so presumably you now had to

To ramp up production because you now Are getting this order. From Target. And by the way, at at this point, were you patented? Did you have patents to protect the silicone bags? Oh my gosh, we spent so much money on patents and that was like well worth everything that we did. And anyone that copied us, we went after.

'Cause you'cause there were knockoffs. There were tons of we were on red I had a whole team on red point every day that would go Aunt their job was to go on the internet and And see who's knocking us off and serve them. And is I don't know what red point is. It's I guess it's a data. Yeah, it's it's wonderful. You can see who's knocking you off like in three seconds. And and where it's coming from.

And but It still it's a pain because w if you had people knocking you off, you have to oh yeah file lawsuits in the meantime you're losing sales. But yeah, but you have to do it because if you don't keep some of the big ones back, you're gonna get eaten up. But I do have to say on that note, I want to thank every single copier we've ever had out there because It made me run like the devil was chasing me.

Hm. And then you have to thank your competitors. You say it made you run because you wanted to you gotta establish your brand. Essentially once you have a product that can be slightly modified and and replicated. the the advantage you have to Yeah, you've got to have is a better brand. It's a it's brand awareness. Being first to market has the biggest advantage you could have with getting in front of the buyers, being in the market, getting first positioning.

it has the biggest advantage of anything. But the other part of that keeping everybody away from you so that you can keep like doing things differently. And the way you keep the uh everybody away from you it is by zigzagging on the road. Right. And being a B corporation and being a one percent for the planet and being a one

Those things were not things people committed to when they were copying me. Right. You know, I was putting my money where my mouth was. I wasn't a greenwashing company that was trying to make a dime. I existed to make a difference and my team existed to make a difference. H how did you I mean Given that there are there there were an R

Um products that that are also silicone bags with the zip top. Zip uh there's a company called Ziptop. W was it just at a certain point you can't Sue them because they're also I mean they're they're changing it enough where they're not violating the patent.

Yeah, I mean th the the thing is you also don't want to you know, I always told my my team this, you know, and and they know I didn't watch the copiers like they did because my job was Was to drive forward. and to drive really fast. And their job was to look in the rear view mirror and to always make sure we took care of our customers like nobody else. And that we had a culture in our company that cultivated everything that we stood for. And people like you know, we had millennials in the office. They're no nonsense if Our office was all about what we wanted to see out in the world, and that just spread like fire. You can't copy that unless you're legit.

So You I mean two thousand eighteen and then two thousand nineteen.

you know, huge growth years. I think by the end of two thousand nineteen you're thirty million dollars that year in revenue, but that year little over three years or under three years after you really founded the company Uh an announcement went out.

S. C. Johnson acquires Dasher. Um, which is amazing uh to be acqu acquired after just three years. Um But tell me b tell me why. I mean what what what was the I mean, obviously you gotta pay out and there's money there. Um was that the reason why it was it it did it made sense to you to To sell to S Johnson?

And I and I can't confirm your numbers, by the way, so I wanted Stasher to be in the hands of everyone if it was gonna make real change. And Guy, it's all about distribution. Who has distribution? Yeah. S C Johnson's one of the biggest, um right like

companies if it's a well it's a uh consumer packaged company has you just I mean they're a multinational and what do they manufacture? Right, they soap and Detergent and household cleaning products, all kinda things like that. And they put and they manufacture Ziploc. And of course. They have a whole arm of Companies that are better for you companies like Method.

And Mrs. Myers. and Cal Drea and Sunbom. I mean they have companies that are Changing the footprint of the way Multinationals do business and the way things are produced. And by the way, just uh for the record

I didn't get acquired, I brought the acquirers to the table. I saw anybody that would have an arm for massive distribution of Stasher out and I weeded them out. And did you specifically look for S. Johnson because There was a product.

that they had acquired that you thought aligned with yours you mentioned method, was there And he Anything about that? Yeah. I mean they have it on

It's accessible to everyone. Mm. That was important to me, for You know, that stasha would be accessible, that it would be affordable, that it would be donated to schools or, you know, all kinds of things that it would be recycled through Terracycle. Those are programs that they're putting in place that I could have never done. But then I have to tell you, guy, COVID happened.

Yeah. Every single day I thank my stars. that the acquisition happened because I had the responsibility Uh Forty to fifty families in my hands.

And that could have been potentially a disaster'cause people weren't packing school lunches. People weren't going to retail stores. People weren't shopping anymore. Everybody was saving their money. I'll tell you what though, we were going on a lot of hikes, so I had a lot of dry I had a lot of dry cranberries in my stash bag. And I did and I did meet the guy that was gonna be our CEO. Yeah. 'Cause you you decided at that point or y you were not gonna be the CEO after the acquisition. No, but I had to meet who was I had to meet Kay Salma, who's from the Netherlands And the guy was just

the nicest guy and you know his DNA. is all about sustainability. Why didn't you want to stay on? Why didn't you insist on staying on as CEO? you're not really part of the company anymore. You're kind of a brand ambassador, but why didn't you

I'm not very good at following rules. You didn't think it you didn't think you were the right person to work in a big sort of corporate superstructure. Yeah, you know, and I have to tell you, Guy, I mean my family's been on this, right? I mean my kids have been on most of my business trips. They've been at all like a lot of my trade shows. They've packed our my goods with me. They deserve mommy at some point. And now that they're young adults I really want to not just be here for my kids. I want to be here for other women and I want to do things that are. that will have a bigger footprint in the money that I was able to make with my passion for something that'll change hopefully the plastic footprint.

of our society and I have the ability to do something else that's possibly Maybe even bigger. So That was it. Twenty twenty. The deal closes and and

And then Covid hits and wow, I mean... In some ways the timing couldn't have been better. Yeah. But they're doing great. Yeah.

And I love being in touch and they'll always be my family. When you think about your journey and and and and you know, all all that you've been through and the success you've had, how how much do you think that has to do with How Just you know.

You're smarts and your work ethic and and and how much do you think You tribute to luck. I think as an immigrant and as my mother's daughter. Work ethic is a given.

And I do believe that The harder you work. The luckier you get. But I also believe that the universe is has a power and

An energy of its own. Some of it not in our control, but And If we embrace Those things whether we call them luck or

Or things that were unlucky. I think that maybe we just like Let go of the things we can't control and think of those things that come to us as luck or Things that just happened because we took a chance. That's Cat Norrie, founder and CEO of Modern Twist.

and founder of Stasher, where she still advises as a consultant. Wait, if Mark Cubin managed to uh to make that four hundred thousand dollar investment for fifteen percent on Shark Tank in twenty eighteen, uh huh. Uh would he have done well? He would have been clicking his heels. Wow. Cuban, you would have been clicking your Faragamo slippers. Absolutely.

Who Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. We would love it if you could give us a positive review on whatever podcast platform you use. And don't forget to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to write to us, our email address is hibt at npr.org. And if you want to follow the show's Twitter account, it's at HowI Built This, or mine at GuyRoz. Our show's Instagram account is at how I built this NPR and mine is at guy.Roz.

This episode was produced by Carrie Thompson with music composed by Ramtin Arablui. It was edited by Niva Grant with research help from Claire Murashima. Our production staff includes Casey Herman, JC Howard, Julia Carney Harrison, BJ Choi. Liz Metzger, Ferris Safari, and Elaine Coates. Our intern is Catherine Seiper. And Jeff Rogers is our executive producer.

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