Advice Line with Sarah Kauss of S'well

Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free. at gyroz.com and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. Alright, let's get to it.

My guest today is Sarah Kaush. She's the founder and former CEO of Swell, as in the famous Swell Bottles. Sarah, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, guy. I'm thrilled to be here. It's so great to have you back. Uh we first had you on the show, well th the last time, the only time was it was in uh April of twenty twenty. It was right at the beginning of the pandemic. And it was just kind of a nutty time. I remember you were in your sitting in like your living room or your house and

Everybody's freaking out. Yes. And at that time still remember Guy, at that time I thought, Wow, this pandemic thing has been going on a few weeks. It feels like forever. Um, I had no idea it was gonna change our lives really for Decades to come. So for those of you who haven't heard the story of Swell, um Sarah started it in two thousand nine, basically after getting the idea on a hike that you were you had a thermos and you took a swig and it was warm water and you thought why can't bottles

Keep water cold. So You left your job and then You launch this company and six years after launching Swell The company made a hundred million dollars in revenue. It's an amazing story. Um, full of

pivots and uh problem solving and massive risk taking. uh but eventually you built it into an incredible business. Um and by the way, if you if you listening have not heard the episode, just scroll back and and check it out. Um it's in the podcast cube, but we'll also put a link to it in the show notes. Um Sarah. You are no longer Wiswell.

Just to be clear, right? Like the company was acquired I think two years ago or or three years ago? Exactly uh two years ago. So yeah, I've I'm I'm a f I'm a free woman. I sold the business and I'm not associated with the brand at this point anymore. And how does it How does it feel? I mean I mean to be it was your life for what?

Yeah, thirteen years it was my life. You know, it it it's bitter sweet. Mm the overriding feeling when I sold the business was relief. I was so proud of the company and the brand and the team and I was incredibly happy to to land the plane in a soft place that I knew that this brand that I built and loved would would go on, almost like sending a kid off to college, I would say. I was proud of what I had done. Um I still miss it. I I still miss it. Um sometimes. I'm I'm still in contact with some of the team. I obviously still love the brand. Uh I buy at full price now off the website. Do you don't even get a discount?

No, I I should have negotiated. I uh all founders out there, when you sell your business, negotiate a lifetime discount because I forgot to ask for that. I I mean I think Tom Rinks of Sun Bum, who was on the show a couple weeks ago, I think he gets free or discounted Suntown lotion forever. Well, he's probably a better negotiator than me. No, I probably I mean, I probably could ask, but I'm I'm happy to support them. I I actually really love what they're they're doing right now. Yeah. All right, so Sarah, uh before we get to today's callers, um, let me let me ask you a question about positioning, right? Because I think

I think all of our callers today have you know, unique products that they're trying to position within larger markets. And and you know, I mean water bottles, even when you started in two thousand nine, I mean it was already starting to get crowded. Um, and it's of course continued to to become m more and more so, right, with like Stanley Cups and Hydra Flasks and Yeti and Awala's and every

Yeah. Um What was your process. Can you remind us of your process of getting your product onto the shelves? Because I know, if I remember correctly, You were in New York City.

And you went like store by store. Like the idea was you'd get'em into Bloomingdales. And then you'd be game busters. But that's not How it happened. No, that's not how it happened. And really for me, Guy, it was a crowded marketplace, but for Swell it came down to positioning. I saw a position in the market for a higher quality water bottle, something that again that kept things hot and cold.

But was more of a fashion hydrory than something that you would take to the gym or on a hike. I didn't want something that looked like a camping canteen. I wanted something that looked as elegant that you could buy it in the MOMA design store or you know, would be in the holiday window at Bloomingdale's, you know, places where we were featured eventually, but you are recalling correctly that in the beginning it was just me hoofing it into stores with my backpack, asking to leave a couple water bottles on a shelf. sometimes even on consignment, uh, just to see if they would sell in those stores. Okay.

Um Sarah, let's let's take a our first Call. You ready? I'm ready. Alright. Uh collar number one. I think it's Chiara is our first collar.

Hi. Yeah, it's Chiara. Hello, welcome. Kira, uh tell us where you're calling from and just uh briefly about your business. Okay, cool. I'm so excited. Um my name is Chiara Moonsey. I'm calling from San Francisco, California. And I'm the co-founder of Chi G.

A breakfast company on a mission to replace oats with chickpeas. And all sorts of breakfast foods, but starting with the first ever Instant chickpea hot cereal. Nice. Okay. Chi Chi is the brand.

Yeah. Uh Kier, can you tell us um what what's what's the question that you brought for us today? So my question for you both today is how do We increase our in store grocery sales as a brand new product that nobody's ever heard about or is really even looking for in the hot cereal category. All right, we'll get to your question in a moment, but but let me ask you a couple questions about the brand first. Tell me ha about like about the product. So it's it's oatmeal, right? I'm looking at the website now. It's it's basically oats That are made from like

D dehydrated chickpeas? Yeah, exactly. Um, so there's no oats at all. It's just chickpeas. So it's grain free. And tell me about the Like the genesis, like the idea. What w how how did they start? Yeah, um, so it started um kind of from a personal experience. I used to eat a ton of oatmeal, like regular oatmeal from my pocket.

you know, maple brown sugar flavor, et cetera. And I would eat that every day and like an hour after eating that morning oatmeal I would feel A little tired, a little hungry, like right after, and I realized It didn't have that much protein.

I went to Google and saw that People were adding protein powder to the oatmeal. But that ended up making my stomach hurt. And tasting really chalky. So then I just kinda looked around actually in the grocery aisle.

And I saw chickpeas going into other categories like Pasta. I don't know if you've had like Panza. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, all those other chickpea brands and I said, Why aren't chickpeas in the breakfast category? Yeah. That's cool. I mean chick pea and and you're right, like oatmeal does like people think of oatmeal as this really healthy thing. And I guess there are things about it that are healthy, but

Oatmeal does spike. your blood sugar for most your blood your glucose for most people. It actually'cause it's it's high in carbohydrates. Um it's not unhealthy. It's just um it it can create like a crash.

Like a couple hours later. Yeah, exactly. Um and that's a lot of our customers are a diabetic or they do wear those glucose monitors and They're looking for an alternative to oats. And we're right there. So how did you do it? Let me tell me I mean'cause I

I think you're You just recently graduated from college, right? In the li in the last Ca year so? Yeah, I graduated less than a year ago. Um, my co founder's actually still in college, but We started off really in our dorm room rolling chickpeas with the rolling pin. You would cook the chickpeas and then you just like s roll'em and smash them down.

Yeah, just to make them into an oat shape and then dehydrate them. And that was kind of like our initial version of of what this product could look like. And then and and that worked? I mean you would basically cook the chickpeas, roll them, dehydrate them and then when you rehydrated them It actually kind of had a an oatmeal like texture.

Yeah, exactly. Surprisingly it did. And it almost is a little less mushy than oats. Sometimes people think oats are a little mushy and watery and the chickpeas kind of Hold their shape a little better. Alright, and and so how did you Take the next step. Like how did you For example, how'd you just finance the first run of this product?

So after we had this weird bowl of chickpea mush basically, yeah, we had to figure out how to commercialise it, how to do our first production run. And the first step was The hardest step of making the whole business, which was basically A year of me calling different чекпі farmers, чек пі процесир. Co manufacturers to try to get them to produce it at scale.

And obviously it was hard because it was just me as like a twenty two year old being like Can you flake? Chickpeas for me? Can you like Make this chickpea oatmeal product. I've had this new startup idea and What I've learned, especially what I've learned on your show, is that a lot of times when

You start calling Copackers, they don't really give you any time'cause you're just A nobody. Um but After about a year I did st find some great partners to kind of help me scale it. Um, and then of course, yeah, we needed the money side of things and

As two college students, we had literally no money in the bank at all. But what we did to finance it was actually enter ourselves into a bunch of pitch competitions. Huh. And we raised over a hundred thousand dollars just with pitch competitions that were non-dilutive and We traveled around just giving our pitch to Dozens and dozens of judges.

I love that. That's awesome. Congratulations. Um Let me ask you one more question and I'm gonna bring Sarah in. Tell me a little bit about um where the product is sold right now. Is it mainly s are you mainly selling Direct to consumer on your website? Are you are you in in stores? Yeah, so right now we sell ninety-five percent of our products through our own website on Shopify, and then about five percent of our sales are coming from Around thirty Los Angeles grocery stores.

Awesome. Okay. Um, sir, do you have any before we start to tackle her question, do you have any Any questions for Kiara about About the business? Yeah, Kira. Um

It looks like you're creating an entirely new category, something I feel I have a little bit of um experience with, but one of my questions for you is um your placement in grocery store, where are you placed right now today? Um, so right now we're placed in the hot cereal category with the regular old oatmeals. Which is actually one of our biggest problems because A lot of our customers actually don't eat oatmeal because they might be diabetic or gluten free. So they're not even in the category.

Yeah. And I'm on your website now. Is your product gluten free?'Cause I don't see that it says it on the packaging yet. Um yeah, it is gluten free. Well, I know in my local grocery store, which is a which is a Wegman's a nice big chain here on the east coast, that they have a gluten free section of the grocery store. So I was thinking just looking you beautiful packaging, by the way.

Tierra, I was just looking at your website. I was thinking if you could more prominently display that this is a gluten free item and get that on the front of your packaging. That could be really helpful. Actually we are kind of in the midst of updating our packaging, so Yeah, we'll say gluten free on the front and then Another change that we're making

is instead of calling it oatmeal, we're actually changing the name to hot cereal because we found that a lot of our Consumers were confused. About why we were calling it oatmeal'cause there's no oats in it. Yeah. Yeah.

So all right, so your question is how do you increase grocery sales, right? And and and and You're mainly in grocery stores, you said, in Los Angeles right now. Yeah, exactly. So I'm mainly interested in learning how to Increase sales when we're already on the shelf. Like how do we get random shoppers

To pull our product off the shelf. Um I think something Sarah something you said which I think is is critical is that this is like a brand new P this is an in an invention. This is something that doesn't exist. I don't do you have any Competition? Are there any other brands that are making chickpea? Hot cereal?

No, we're the we're the first chickpea hot cereal, which is why we're very urgently trying to move fast, so We can be kind of the chickpea oatmeal. Yeah. I mean Sarah, I mean I mean I think about you going door to door um in New York with swell bottles To me, it seems like this is it it's a no brainer for samples, right? To to sort of and it costs money to get people to do the samples in stores, but to me it seems like

Kind this product is kinda screaming out. For a a sample table. Have you guys done some of that in in the grocery stores? Yeah, we have started doing that and that's like basically where all of our sales come from is when somebody's in there um doing samples. So we're trying to ramp that up a bit. And we're also planning to

Hopefully do some s like right now we sell in five serving bags. Which is a pretty big bag. So we might start selling in single serve pouches so that we can just hand out samples to people as well. That's great. Oh yeah, I think sampling is a wonderful idea because the more you can have people taste your product, know that it's not only healthy, but it's delicious, would be I think

A wonderful idea. Kiero, if you could be on any shelf. or any part of grocery store, where would you want the product to be? I don't really I think I would want us to be in hot cereal, I think. I don't really see any alternative to that. Yeah, I mean it's like it's like plant milks, you know, many plant milks wanna be or or beyond meat, you know, they wanna be where the meat is and plant milks wanna be where the m the milk is. And it makes to me makes a lot of sense that this would be exactly where you would go and and look for

But I do think that you have an opportunity, and it sounds like you're you're moving in that direction, to really emphasize things like, you know, a hot cereal, take out oatmeal, grain freeze great. Ten grams of protein, that's a lot of protein, you know, and I I feel like that could pop a little bit more protein is really I I feel like protein is the new gluten free. You know, it's just in everything now. So Um

To me that that's a huge selling point, you know, high protein Um High fiber. Is another thing people are really excited about fiber. Six grams of fiber Per serving.

That's that's a lot. I mean that's great, you know, and and And I feel like that is especially as people are getting more in interested in gut microbiome and gut health. I mean Fiber protein. I'd slap both of those on the front. Yeah, I think you're so right.

My advice would also to try to find your influencers, not necessarily the big brand name influencers, but the hyper local influencers that care about fiber, protein, glucose The more that you can get the individuals to really share within their local communities to go and find this product on your website or in their local grocery store. I think it'll extend your reach. Because you know my example is swell, we sold

over 50 million of our original swell bottles before we spent a dollar on marketing. We asked our consumers to get out there, take the product and and to ask other consumers to give it a try. And the more that you can do that, before you know it, those people are going to be organically sharing on their stories as well. Yeah. And this again, I mean, you have a product that is differentiated, no one's making it right now. And but it means something really critical. And and I and I don't know if you heard our episode with Magic Spoon, but if you haven't heard it, it's worth listening to. That

is a you know, it's a grain free, sugar free breakfast or they use allulose. Um and they use like way protein to create these this puffed breakfast cereal. that tastes like co cocoa puffs or fruity pebbles or whatever. Well

The minute that they put that out and into the marketplace, they were a bunch of other competitors that some came just right before, some came after. you are gonna have competition and so Your right to try and I think that there's a

an argument to be made that you should also Concurrently. And and Sarah, you might disagree with me here,'cause you didn't do this. Look for Some more capital. Look for investors. Sarah didn't do it.

You never did it. You scaled your company without investors. It's an amazing story. But I think maybe in this case it could be Worthwhile. Do you have a di different take, Sarah? I'm not anti investment. I uh you know, in the last few years I've been working as an advisor and a board member to a bunch of companies. I'm even an investor myself now in a bunch of companies. I'm not anti investment. I can see what

capital spartly apply to good brands at the appropriate times. can do. So you know, f just be cautious and make sure you're you're using the capital appropriately. Um, you're still thinking about your margins and your burn and try to find someone that can help you with the spend. You know, hopefully it's someone that's actually, you know, done something in a a category similar or adjacent to yours. In addition to capital, they bring, you know, some other help in sales or other resources. Okay, great. Kara.

It's awesome. Congratulations. on the brand on Chi Chi, um We're gonna be Fall I mean I'm gonna be I'm gonna look out for it. I know it in a short period of time.

I'm gonna see it. All over the place. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me on the show. Thanks. Thanks, Kira.

Um It's cool. I mean it's a great idea. Yeah. Right? There's chickpeas now in everything.

But not on breakfast yet. Not in breakfast cereal. Not in hot cereal. And pasta and in Cookies and crackers and but yeah. That's cool. Start it in a dorm room. Some of the best things are started in a dorm room. Yeah.

Okay, Sarah, we're gonna take a quick break, uh, but when we come back, we will be talking to a caller who is looking to bring greeting cards inspired by his Latino heritage to national retailers. Stick around, I'm Guy Raz, you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Mm. Hello, welcome back to How I Built a Slab Advice Line. I'm Guy Raz, and joining me to take calls today is Sarah Kaus, the founder of SWEL. Um all right, why don't we why don't we bring in our next collar.

Hello collar. Number two is it is it his oos on the line? Hello, hey Zeus, hello, hello, welcome. Tell us your name where you're calling well you know your name, but tell us your full name, where you're calling from, uh and a little bit about your business. Yeah, so my name is Jesus Rualcava, I'm calling from Salinas, California, and my business is paper tacos greeting cards. So paper tacos are cards that are rooted in Latino culture and tradition. Nice. Okay, cool. So greeting cards rooted in Latino culture tradition. What's uh what's your question?

Uh the question that I have is how can I tell the importance of representations that Paper Taco's greeting cards brings beyond Latino specialty stores. Got it. Okay. Let's talk about your story. First.

So w what was going on in your life when you started this company? What were you doing? Yeah, so I started the company in twenty seventeen and um you know, I've been a designer for the last twenty years, so I was working at Healer Packard at the time. But um as a designer, I got to a certain point where I felt the need for something creative where I wasn't bound by guidelines from big brands and you know it started because uh uh my mom's birthday was actually coming up and I went to a local grocery store to look for a greeting card for her. And my mom's, you know, first generation immigrant here to United States only speaks Spanish. And uh I was happy to see you know a wide selection of Spanish cards, but I didn't really see anything that

Resonated. with me like in the sense of like a culture or traditions or, you know From the Latino. Experience. And so that's that's kinda got me thinking uh we're so much more than just Spanish language. You could incorporate our food, you could incorporate our music, there's you know, even within Latinos, there's so much diversity from what country you come from. And even here in the United States, my mom being first generation versus me being second generation and and firstborn here.

were so different and so, you know, just by using Spanish I felt that There's still a lot more that could be represented there. And that's how the idea started, and I started doing it on the side. I'm looking at the site and d these uh the illustrations are so fun. They're so cool. Do you do you do all the illustrations? Uh yeah, about ninety percent of them are done by me. Now I'm partnering with other um Latino artists, which helped me produce some of the cards. They're so bright and joyful. Um and like some of the cards I mean that are I mean, some of them are in English, like have a flantastic birthday, um which I love'cause I love making flan.

And then some are in Spanish, but everybody knows what feliz cumpleaños means, right? I mean so So tell me who in your mind is the ideal Customer for For your products. Yeah, so the ideal customer would be I think someone exactly like me, like

born in the United States, um, still has really strong cultural ties to their background, speaks both English and Spanish. So throughout the day they're they're switching back and forth. And not only people that are shopping at, you know, like I mentioned, Latino specialty stores, but you know, I shop at Target and I shop at Walmart. So I would like to see more of that representation there. So that's like the type of people that I'm I'm targeting for my products. Alright, let's bring Sarah into the conversation. Um I s I've still have a bunch of questions, but Sarah, you probably do too. Yeah. So I'm on your

Instagram and man, you have some amazing designs. I'm with Guy. They they just make me smile. They're they're bright and they're happy. Um I'm a card writer. I write cards. I travel with cards. I write them uh all the time and um I already have some cards that I I'm looking forward to to sending. You've done such a nice job here. Thank you. Um, what what's the experience been with the retailers that you're you're with currently? Um, I'd love to just understand a little bit about the experience that you've had with selling so far. Yeah, I mean so far the the majority are Latino specialty stores. So like'cause within the Latino specialty tea stores, they get it right away. They know what I'm doing and the products sell very well there. But it's when I'm trying to explain to other people that aren't from that background where um some of that story gets lost or they they're not really grasping what the benefit that they would have by doing this.

One of the things that I I I really love about Um what you're doing here is that it's also It's sort of like a third culture. It's not your mom's culture, it's yours and the and and kids like you. I say kids. Children who gr who were born in the United States to immigrants, right? And the jokes and the art and the sort of aesthetic

Essentially what you're saying is like Th this appeals to us. And you're we're talking about an enormous potential market, right? I mean we're talking about m tens of millions.

Who trace their heritage back to Mexico or or Latin America. Yeah, so like according to the US Census, um, Latinos make up twenty percent of the US population. So one in five, if you could think of it that way. So it's the market's um really big.

And The trend in that market is is young. So sixty percent of that population is under thirty five. So yeah, so born here, raised here, but still culturally very tied to their roots of where they came from. So um feedback I get from customers that see my cards is An immediate reaction of nostalgia, like, oh, I remember my dad used to say that, or my grandma does that. Um, all of these, you know, great reactions that immediately has a connection.

for them as a buyer and they know that as a sender to the r that recipient, they're gonna get that same exact reaction. I'd love to pick up on on that thread that g the guy just put out there and and and maybe pull that a little bit because I think that there is sort of this this second idea that these aren't just Spanish language cards that you're making. And I wonder when you're in pitching these these larger retail stores, I wonder if you lead with the cards that that even um you know Sarah Kause that doesn't speak Spanish will will smile and understand and want to send off to friends. So so that way you almost have a

a starter conversation and then you can explain the whole that Paper Tacos is actually filling in their clientele because all of that great data, Jesus, that you just explained, maybe isn't fully understood by all of the card buyers at all of these these chains. Um, but I wonder if he led with something that was more mainstream ish that could really cross the that divide that we're talking about. Yeah, I I really Really like that idea. Um one of the things we noticed when we went to the trade show is

They like again, like the colorful illustrations and the envelopes are really bright and stuff, but then they're like, What does this say? And you know, so I had to like translate it on the spot for them and and kinda give them the background. So some good feedback we got there was like, Oh, you know, you should put the translation like on the back so we're starting to do that. But an idea that came out of that was like Hey, we should have like Uh a subsection that's like Latino inspired, right? They're in English, but they're

Latino inspired and those could maybe be targeted tells those stores that um you know they might be in English, but they have some type of cultural reference in the artwork or something like that. I I feel also like you should think regionally, at least initially, right? Because there are parts of the United States where Where Spanish is widely understood. And so I feel like m maybe

Your your target the in terms of retailers, like you're already in these These um uh sort of Latino h specialty markets in California, but I also think like you know, H E B in Texas, you know, like

Because in Texas most people are gonna understand these cards, you know, and as you know, there are Third, fourth, fifth generation uh Mexican Americans in Texas who don't speak any Spanish, but might still really love this stuff, right? I I I I as again I think that that you wanna kinda think, okay Texas, California, Arizona, you know, sort of those areas Where you have this really interesting

Third culture. Yeah, for sure. And and you know, looking at at sales'cause we also sell direct to consumer through our site. Um You could see like where, you know We have the majority of our sales, so like California, you know, Texas. So yeah, so I I think that's a good s place to start with those um type of stores. Sarah I have a question for you. Um I mean,'cause you obviously were very successful in getting your product into

Lots and lots of retailers, right? Um and obviously every product is different. How would you approach A retailer Around something like this,'cause you would You know, certainly in California, Texas, and other parts of the United States

You would think that there's a natural audience and market for a product like this. I agree. I would really try to tell your story, Jesus. I would say to go deeper into your background and story, just the way that you've explained to Guy and I today. But concisely in a way that a retailer could picture showing this at the front of s of the store, on their website, and in maybe one of their marketing mailers. If you if you show your your face, you show your story and show some of your cards. I think

Then the second page, the second topic you would go into with that retailer is their story. What does this mean for them? You know, touching on the price point, the margin, the story and the success that you've just told that how well that you're doing at regional retailers and how much of a part of the business it could be by being a unique part of their assortment in the store. and and that gap that you're filling for them. And then finally, I think really you could show what the materials could look like in store. Make it as easy as possible for the targets of the world to say yes to you. Show what that assortment could be, show what the point of sale material would look like, really make it make it a whole concise package. that the buyer could just look at and say, yes, you know, how s how many can you make and how soon can you be in the door? Got it. Yeah. I I really appreciate that advice. Thank you.

Um it's such a cool idea. It's called paper tacos. Hey Zeus, thank you so much for calling in. Um Good luck. It's awesome. Congrats.

Thank you, Guy. Thank you, Sarah. Uh I really appreciate the advice. Congrats. I mean the cool thing about these cards is that you don't Like you don't have to be fluent in Spanish to understand them and the the visuals are Clear, they're super fun. They're really cool.

I think he's doing amazing things. Oh, by the way, Hastes, I think you need to post more on your Instagram. You have a lot of followers, so I know you're wearing a lot of hats as an entrepreneur, but I just you should yeah. Make those thirty thousand people buy a card this week. Yes, exactly!

All right, Sarah, we're gonna take another quick break, uh, but just ahead we're gonna hear from another caller. who just launched a brand of razors for men, but not to shave their faces, instead to shave another body part. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice Line here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and with me is Sarah Kause, founder of Swell.

Um all right, let's take another call. Hello, caller Is it Adam? It is, it is. Adam, please introduce yourself, tell us where you're calling from and just briefly about your business. Yeah, hello, my name is Adam Barker. I'm calling in from Salt Lake City, Utah. I'm the founder of Bolt Skin and Shave, and we produce razors and shave products as the first brand for men who shave their legs. For men who shave their legs. That's right. That's right. We're here. We're finally here.

Amazing. I have a million questions for you. Okay. First of all, what what question have you brought up for us today? Yeah, so we are incredibly new. We just launched three weeks ago and I'm really focused on growth.

What kind of growth profile should we be pursuing? Are we are we growing at all costs? Are we are we burning hot, trying to grow quickly? Or are we trying to take a more linear approach and focus on profitability first? Yeah. All right, okay, we'll get to your question in a moment. I've got a million questions for you. First of all How did

this idea come about. I'm assuming you sh you're a m man and you shave your legs. Yes, yes, so I I've been a cyclist most of my life, you know, for the better part of part of my adult life, I have shaved my legs and I've used a pink razor and a bar of soap. And finally I was like I think there's gotta be a better way.

Alright, I'm gonna ask you is such a dumb question, and I'm gonna get heaped with abuse, but But As why d why do cyclists need to shave their legs? What what advice does it give them? So there's a lot of There's a lot of perceived reasons out there. I mean at the very

Top of the top, the biggest competitors, the professionals. Yeah There is a power advantage to shaving your legs. Wow. Right. Even with this m micro millimeter of hair that gives you a A power advantage? Yeah, it's wild. It's wild. They've done

tests in wind tunnels and over the course of a forty K race. You know, forty kilometers you can save up to eighty two seconds, I wanna say the the statistics are. So so there is that, but honestly for Ninety nine percent of us that ride our bikes Even if you're a very

advanced amateur, let's say. It's a cultural thing, right? When you get into riding road bikes or mountain bikes or gravel, whatever it might be. Show off those calves. You wanna show off those Those quads. We've been working hard on that. We're so it's aesthetics, and then to be perfectly honest. Um the most functional reason is if you spend enough time on two wheels. you're gonna spend some time

Done on the ground. And when you crash. And you get all scraped up. It's no fun picking hair out of your wounds. And it's also easier to clean up. As a mountain biker, let's say you come in at the end of the day, it's a whole lot easier to clean up. But the honest truth is is like you just kinda a lot of guys do it for from a functional standpoint. And then you just like it. You like how it looks, you like how it feels. I'm telling you never sleep better. Then the night.

When you shave your legs and you slip into the sheets. It's the best sleep you'll ever have. I believe that. 'Cause yeah, because'cause it does get yeah, I mean I'm g I'm kicking the blanket off at night sometimes. It's hot. Let's get you taken care of, smoothed up. And I sleep on one of those mattresses that cool you down. But that makes a lot of sense. So all right, so you saw an opportunity Basically to enter this this space saying, Hey, there's no I'm gonna create one.

Tell me what you were you just launched it. Wha wha what were you doing up until this point? Wha or what are what's your what's your profession? So For the past fifteen years I've made my living as a professional photographer in the active lifestyle and outdoor space. So a lot of skiing, a lot of fly fishing, I've traveled the world from Antarctica to Southeast Asia. I work for brands in the active lifestyle and outdoor space like Traeger and Yeti Life Straw Sketchers. That's awesome. Yeah.

Um Sarah. This is this is gotta be right up your alley because this is a it is a consumer product that could go on a shelf that I mean, right? So wha what do you think? I love it, Adam. Congratulations on your brand. I love everything that you've just said. Um, I've just checked out your website. What I love about what we're talking about is that this is a great solve for a personal problem that impacts many other people as well. You're you made this product for yourself, and I'm not worried that the market's too small. I I love the fact that you're creating something that's that's niche, but at the same time, you never know how big the market is. This could be the first razor that women steal from the men.

Right. Like you said, you didn't want to use the pink razor anymore. Well, you know, you just don't know. The women might start using the bolt razor. So it doesn't concern me the size of the market. What what I love about it is that you you are the consumer and you're creating this to solve your problem, but then it's also gonna solve the problem for others at the same time. Yeah, and y thank you, first of all, Sarah. It's so great to meet you. I'm a huge fan of your story. I'm a huge fan of your hustle. Thanks. Very inspiring. Um But you're spot on. You know, we're we launched three weeks ago.

And our reviews are just now starting to trickle in. And a lot of those reviews say Now my wife is stealing my razor. Um because it actually it functions so well. One of the biggest differences is it in our razor is that it the cartridge is tuned for coarser leg hair. So the product, yes, we're targeting men, but I believe there will be an underground movement.

uh where women are are finally stealing the razor from their men instead of the other way around. Adam, how did you how did you finance this? Friends and family round. Um, I raised just under four hundred thousand dollars in about the last year. Wow. Um year was it was it? Was it hard or was it I mean that's uh that's great.

It was very hard. Seventy five percent of that. uh just around four hundred K came in the last ninety days of me raising over the last year. So there was a lot of I have this idea.

I've got my manufacturers, I know what my costs are. I have to launch. In April we had a hard launch date for a huge trade show and event that we were going to And It was a little bit of field of dreams where If you build it, they will come. And I I just committed.

And then the what better motivator than than bills coming in to to raise some money? Do you I I I read here on your site that you are You're an ex games gold medalist. I mean you're you're a serious athlete. And one of the cool things about being a serious athlete is you can connect with others. Like I think about, you know, we j we have an uh an episode of the show on Theraguns. And um you know, Jason Wersland, who started that brand

He really got it in the hands of athletes. Or Gary Erickson. um who started Cliff Bar, who was on this show in the advice line a couple weeks ago. And you know, he's a cyclist, and he gave his bars out to every cyclist. He went to every cycling event and gave out Cliff Bars as a Cliff Bar 10. I mean you because of your

you are an athlete in addition to being a photographer Like you need to be giving away A significant amount of product. Like now, you know, already. Obviously you wanna make uh you want to make money But you need to basically say okay

I'm gonna give away twenty five thousand dollars worth of this stuff. And do it really really strategically. Sarah, I I think this was kind of pivotal for you. You'd basically gave a swell bottle to every

Buddy every attende at Ted, so in their gift bag they got a swell bottle that said Ted, you know, whatever, two thousand ten or something. I I I used to go and so I have a bunch of these But I think that r transformational decision, even though it cost you a lot of money. Is is that right?

That's right, guy. We worked with the TED Conference for probably 10 years and we it was expensive. When they first called Adam, it was a very big decision for me to donate, you know, 2,000 bottles and um you know pay for the shipping and and all of that. But it was a big decision. But how do you get in front? of your core market. You know, for us it was it was the Tedsters, as they call themselves, you know, the early adopters of of technology and design. But but what but for you, Adam, it's it's those athletes, you know, so it could seem like a a big a big part of the money that you just um preciously earned, you know, and I congratulations on your four hundred thousand. And I be very careful on on giving that away, but I absolutely agree with Guy that you really do need to find out, you know, who are your influencers and how do you ask them to not just use the product at home, but to post about it so those in their community will find out about it as well. It really helps you extend your reach in a way that is is really imperative at this early stage for you. You know, I actually come from that world. Uh working as a photographer, I would see the people that were in charge of marketing for the companies that I would shoot for and as a new brand and a and a very bootstrappy brand right now.

I'm super sensitive to asking people for something without being able to offer them something in return beyond just product. And so Sarah, I wonder Or guy. If you guys can speak to You know, what is a good give back? How how can I How can I

give without writing a massive check. Cause to some of these athletes you know, they're willing to do it. And to others, they they definitely need some money behind that, which we don't have yet. And and I'm sensitive to to that. To that. Ask of

Wanting something from nothing. My answer to that is to find lower tier athletes not lower tier, but athletes who are who are more like you. It's like you don't go to the the winner of the Tour de France Right. There are iron Iron Man triathlons all over the country.

There are all kinds of of local competitions. Like I mean, you're in you you're in Salt Lake City. Yep. I mean there have to be you know, dozens of cycling and running events Every weekend starting in the spring

And And you know, all through the the fall in Utah. So I feel like it's those kinds of athletes. That could

at least initially have an impact and also You know, there are lots of I mean there there are An enormous number of people On Social media.

Right, who have a hundred thousand followers. And they're not um these are sort of more micro influencers who Who still are influential. They're still reaching a significant number of people.

I have to agree with you, Guy. I think it's those hundred thousand uh influencers, those micro influencers that were the most impactful for us as well. And you know, maybe they do it for a a free razor, maybe they do it for um just showing that they're tapped in to what's new in their community. But I do think that having those hyper local influencers are gonna be really useful to you, Adam. You might actually have some top tier athletes that find your product and post unbeknownst to you. They might buy it um themselves. They might find it and then post about it. But I think the more you can ask for help from your community along the way, I think that's helpful. Another idea for you I had was um maybe trying to find some some partners to help you co-market and extend your reach. Um uh maybe other brands that are in the um the fitness industry that is they're doing gifting, maybe a subscription gift box that you could join without all of the expense yourself.

Yeah, that's fantastic advice. And in fact, to your point, guy I just got back from the Saint George Iron Man last week. We were there last week and we've exhibited you know, I'm what I'm finding is that in person activations right now are the key is having people handle our product. Our Razor feels different. It's quite weighty, right? Um and so getting that in person. exposure. Nobody can sell it like the founder. By the way, when you're going to those events

Are you shaving legs on site? So that was the plan. I actually we have a leg barbershop themed booth. It's awesome. I love it. Right. Um I actually found a nineteen twenties barber chair on Facebook Marketplace. I got it reupholstered in our branding. uh with blu vinyl and a big yellow embroidered bee. It weighs about a billion pounds. So I didn't take it to St. George because I couldn't move it myself. The n the plan was to shave legs. Um at our launch, we didn't quite get there. We had a ton of people ask. So it it's in it's in process.

And that's gonna be so awesome on social media. I mean that is the kind of stuff that you're gonna want to film, you're gonna wanna put that across all the channels. You're gonna want Pictures of guys getting their legs shaped on the site because that's the kind of thing that pops. I mean it's it's it's so

But Adam, I I realize we haven't actually answered your question yet, uh, which was uh Should you just try to grow, grow, grow, grow fast, or or try to focus on on profitability and take it slowly? This is a great question. I'm really glad you're thinking about this. Sarah? You I mean, you grew really slowly until you grew really fast. We grew really slowly and then really fast.

However, we were always profitable. And I have to say I started my life and my career, Adam, as a CPA and as an accountant. And I was afraid of debt. And um I absolutely Think you should Dream big.

But I would caution you to think about profitability. Don't be afraid of those marketing giveaways. You have to feed the brand, but at the same time This isn't a story of growth at all costs because you really want to stay in this for the long term. This is gonna be a long a long bike race for you and you don't want to run out of cash early on. So I would I would do both. And I know that that's a cheater answer, but think big, but let's think about profitability at the same time that you're doing all the really sexy things to build this brand. That's such great advice. I really appreciate your encouraging words. I I do believe that we have a great opportunity here. What we're finding is is that a lot of men, we're taking an activity that for the men that do it.

It has largely been totally overlooked and unacknowledged and we're turning it into an experience. You know, we have Not just a razor, but we've got shave products. We've got an exfoliat scrub, a shave butter. a post-save lotion, a CBD recovery balm, and these all create an experience around an activity that's kind of been in the closet for a lot of guys. So It's answering those needs and then some. So and and I really appreciate the methodical approach that you took.

And I mean I of course I I've raised this money Um We had to spend a lot of it, right? CPG startups are stupid expensive. I couldn't believe it. I spent a hundred thousand dollars on stuff you can squeeze into your hand, you know? Um, but Uh I do have a little bit of runway that I'm clutching so tightly to and in

It's hard for me to wrap my head around. letting go of that, but I am a marketer. I believe in marketing. You got to spend money to make money, but I gotta find a responsible way to do it, you know? And you will. And again, shave legs, man. You gotta go out and just shave legs, film it. I wanna see that all over social media. We'll do that. You gotta go to our website and watch our launch video. It's an AA style support group for men who shave their legs. It's it's hilarious.

Hilarious. I will definitely watch that. That is great. Um, Adam, congrats. Bolt, skin and shave. Um good luck. Keep us posted.

Thank you, guy. Thank you, Sarah. So appreciate you having me on the show. I appreciate your advice. Good luck, Adam. Guy, you're a good marketer. I I love that you thought of that idea about the shaving legs on site. I mean, w wouldn't you watch if wouldn't you watch that if you saw the video be like, Wait, what's going on? Well look at all these like Jacked dudes getting their legs shaved, and then you find out

that actually helps them with their aerodynamics. Showing off their muscles at the same time. I mean I s I live in in the Bay Area, you know, and and uh and there's a lot of hills around here and I see these cyclists just going up these grueling hills, you know, and you're just like Now now I'm gonna look at their legs.'Cause he he's probably right. Most of these Guys are probably shaving their legs. I never paid attention, I will have to watch.

You learn something new every episode. Sarah Kause founder. Uh Swell um thank you so much for coming back onto the show. Thanks for having me, Guy. It was fun to spend some time with you. And by the way, if you haven't heard Sarah's episode, The Story of Swell

Uh go back and check it out. It's An awesome story, you can just scroll up and find it in our podcast cue, or even easier. We will put a link in the podcast description. Also, it'll be in our newsletter this week, so check it out. Uh, you can sign up for our newsletter at guyras.com. It's free, it comes out every week, and uh I think it's pretty good. Um, and thank you for listening to the show this week. If you are working on a business and you'd like to be on the show. Uh send us a one minute message that tells us about your business and any questions or issues or challenges or problems or crises. that you would like help with, we will try and do our best to solve them. And uh and also make sure to tell us how to reach you, because some people don't, and then we can't call you back. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or you can call 1-800-200.

433-1298 and leave a message there and we'll put all of this in the show notes so if you don't write it down like me, then you can just scroll down and see it there. Thanks, we'll be back next week. See you then. This episode was produced by Chris Massini with music composed by Ramtina Rablui. It was edited by John Isabella, our audio engineer with Neil Rouch. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Esteves, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, JC Howard. Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thomson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson.

I'm Guy Roz and you've been listening to the advice line here on how I built this lab.

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