ICYMI... HIBT Lab! Blogilates: Cassey Ho

Hey really quick before we start the show, this week we are revisiting one of our very first How I Built This Lab interviews. It's with Cassie Ho of Blogalades. If you haven't heard it, you will absolutely love it. It's a story of how Cassie came out of nowhere to build this incredible YouTube fitness empire. Here it is. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. Today we're talking about the creator economy with Cassie Ho. The personality behind the fitness YouTube channel Blagalades.

Cassie's channel has more than six million subscribers and her videos have been viewed more than a billion times. But her fitness videos, most of which are free are just a part of a larger business she's built. Today, Cassie runs multiple businesses, including an apparel brand, several product lines, and a Pilates certification platform. And the amazing thing is that Cassie sort of fell into her life as a fitness and fashion entrepreneur somewhat accidentally.

It started with a basic exercise video she uploaded to YouTube back in 2009 for her Pilates students. But somehow Word got out, and lots more people started to watch the video. First thousands of people, then tens of thousands, and they kept asking Cassie for more. More Pilates videos.

Then workout clothes, water bottles, yoga mats, the works. That was more than a decade ago, and Cassie's business is just getting started. Kessie Hove, welcome to How I Built This Lab. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be here. This is literally a dream. Um, well, here the dream come true. Let's let's make it happen. Yes. Cassie, I I wanna I want you to take me back to um

to you know your life sort of Before you became Well, one of the best known fitness instructors and leaders in You know.

In the world really. You did not I mean, when you were sort of in high school and in college, like this was not in the stars for you. This was not what was written in the stars. You were like sort of planning to be, I guess, a doctor or or lawyer or some other kind of quote unquote stable career. Is that right? Mm. That's right. So I'm Chinese and Vietnamese American.

My parents are both immigrants. And For them. stability and having respect with your career is a really uh financial stability is a huge thing. They came over to this country with nothing. And so um

In my bones, I always wanted to be a fashion designer, but it's not one of the three careers that are allowed. In our culture. And so when I told my dad that I wanted to become a designer, he told me I had three choices. I could either be a doctor A lawyer or a failure. Wow.

I know. Dad. Like he literally said that to me. And it scared me. And I was a very obedient

Like I did everything my parents said. I was in all the AP and honors classes and I was like okay all right fine I'll do medical science I'll go to school to become a doctor because that's what you want. Um, but My heart was so hollow when I was in коледж. We know that you did choose failure, actually, as your career.

We'll get to that later. Um But but I get it, right? Um I read that that you first got exposed to Pilates when you were sixteen. It was a A a video or D V D that That you saw it was Marie Winsor, I think.

Yeah. Okay, so When I was sixteen, it was the weekend I remember, I was watching infomercials on TV and I saw Marin Winsor and I saw this lady like coaching like two other ladies doing these beautiful moves and I was like I wanna do that. And at the time I was, you know, captain of the tennis team. I'd been playing tennis ever since I was six and I was athletic, but I would not say I was an athlete or that I enjoyed what I was doing. I did not discover fitness until I discovered Pilates. Because

Tennis for me was like You're here to beat someone, you're always beating someone. But with Pilates, what I found, you know, after I begged my parents to get me the DVD and they finally let me I would do it in my room every night and I just felt like I was Just trying to compete against who I was yesterday and just trying to be better and get stronger and more flexible.

You know, what used to make me sore no longer is, and now I can advance on to the next move. And that was really the moment I discovered fitness and the joy in fitness that, you know I try to spread with people um today with the videos that I do. You um You We're

as you say, a good student, and I you went and I think you went and studied biology at Whittier College in Southern California, but you knew that fashion was the thing that you were passionate about and how did you How did you find that? Was it did it just come naturally to you? Were you Would you flip through fashion magazines as a teenager and look at at look at the the models and the outfits and and the designs? I don't know how it came to me, but

Ever since I was like six, I would carry a sketchbook with me everywhere. And I would just draw things and particularly evening gowns and red carpet dresses, I just love romantic beautiful things and so you'll see a lot of that in my designs today with the active wear, but I just love sketching and creating. Um so that's what it started with. And you know, fashion magazines, yeah, like I read them here and there, but it that wasn't what got me, it was the creation of it. Like the sewing, like that got me more excited than looking at the photos.

All right, so despite your desire to work in the fashion industry You did go and study biology in college, Meantime. Did you continue to do Pilates as a student? Did d is this something that you really kind of deepened and in in your practice and developed? During your time in college?

So I was. I was actually continuing to do Pilates but in the common area, and so a bunch of girls would walk by and be like what are you doing? Can you teach us? And so I ended up teaching like For fun to a couple girls. And then I was looking for a side hustle to distract me from how much I was hating school. I was on Craigslist, um, and I saw there was an an audition for a Pilates instructor. And I obviously was not certified at this time, but I thought why not just go and audition anyway?

And so I went to the gym, I did my little routine for the gym owner, and at the end she was like wow That's really amazing. You're hired. And I was like, Awesome. She's like, Can I see your certification? And I was like About that and um she was you know, this is one of those Points my life that it really was a turning point. Because she believed in me, she paid for my certification. And had she not done that, I really don't think.

I would've You know, been on the path that I'm on today. Mm. So yeah, and I I taught at that gym to just a few ladies a time and then I remember when I got hired at Twenty Four Hour Fitness, that was such a huge deal to me. And I was teaching to rooms full of like fifty people, and I remember putting the microphone on and like shaking, like I was so nervous. Um, but it brought me so much joy because you know, you no matter how you feel when you get into that room, you're there for the people there. And so the energy that you bring to the room and the energy that they give you back by the time you get out of there an hour later, you just feel so

Good. Alright, so you are doing what your parents expect. You're studying biology, but you're teaching Pilates and it's opening your eyes up to A different world. You're you're now a a fitness instructor. But

Tell me about what was your plan? Um While I was in school because I couldn't stop doodling in the sidelines of my notebook I was sketching Um

a solution for a problem that I had. So because I was teaching Pilates I had to bring all this gear to class. I had to bring a yoga mat, keys, C D's towel, water bottle, and I didn't have a cute bag to put everything in. And so I decided to make my own. And when I brought that Super glam like bow bag with gold chains to class. Everyone was like, What is that? I want that. And basically um

I decided to find like a tiny tiny manufacturer in Oakland actually um who would be willing to accept my small order and I shipped up close out fabrics from downtown LA to have him help me create those bags. And it it was that experience too that was like, this is something that I really want to do. From what I understand, when you graduated college, you decided to pursue fashion. Yeah, but I also dropped out of organic chemistry. It was the last class I needed to take the Oak Em and I was like my parents aren't listening to me. I'm just gonna they're you know, they don't listen, I'm gonna do something to make sure that they do listen. And so I dropped out of Oakem.

messed up my entire timeline and my parents were like, You are bringing so much shame to the family right now And I was like, You know what, I need to live this life for me and so yeah, I ended up graduating with an an honors in biology because you know my parents taught me if you're gonna do something you might as well be the best at it. So I was did that anyway. Heart wasn't in it, but I did it. And then I applied for some um programs that would teach me how to become a buyer. Right, to be a fashion buyer. To be a fashion buyer, right? To understand that side of the business. And I actually got accepted into one because that was the closest thing I could get to fashion without having that design degree. But Before I moved out there that Um

I actually did send out a few bags to some magazines and each one was like gold. And I just prayed that someone would write something about it and I I sent it out And that yoga bag, just to be clear, it could hold like a mat and a and Like a other accessories. Yeah, it could hold your mat plus you know

Towels, shoes, like everything. It was like super glamorous and luxurious. And um another thing that happened at that time prior to moving out to Boston was that all of my students at Twenty Four Fitness were like Well who's gonna teach pop Pilates now? No one is teaching this format. And at the time I was the only one doing pop music to Pilates. It was normally like classical and very slow. And so I thought, all right, well, why don't I record a short workout video for just these 40 people and I'll upload it to this website called YouTube. I don't even know what it was. And I put it there. It was a for 40 people and um Yeah, that was the beginning of the Blogalotties channel. Wow.

Alright, Cassie, let's take a quick break. We're gonna be right back more with Cassie Ho. You're listening to how I built this lab, stick around. Hey welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and I'm here with Cassie Ho, the creator of one of YouTube's biggest fan favorite fitness channels, Blagalotes. Alright, so you go to Boston. You leave this video behind as a could buy gift to pursue, you know, this career as a as a fashion buyer.

Um And that is sort of the direction you're going. Head into I guess, right? Yeah. I thought I was going to be living my dream career. I thought this was it. And it most definitely was not. I got there and the culture just was not right for me. Um

But this was the crazy part. I was sitting this was eight months into my job, completely miserable and I'm telling I would Cry before I went to work every day. It was terrible. I get a text from my sister and her finger is pointing to a picture of something that looks like my bag. In a magazine

And I ask her, What is that? And she's like, I think your bag is in shape magazine. And I'm like Wait what? So I run out. To the nearest target during my lunch break, and I'm like sifting through all of the pages and like oh my gosh, where, where, where, where, where. And the moment I saw my like no name, nobody bag, like in a real magazine, like I started And I was like, This is a sign.

I have to to go. So I mean you had s randomly sent out this yoga bag to a bunch of magazines. Shape did have a photo of it and a little feature, but Did it have like a link to where you could buy it? Yeah, it actually said the website. It said the website. And the crazy thing was people like typed it in and they actually bought the bag. Like I saw like a teeny uptick in sales. Like it was a it was a sign enough for me to like, let's just go and do this.

And so I quit my job the following week. I bought a ticket to China on Friday, left on Sunday, so that I could attend the Canton Fair, which is one of the biggest manufacturing fairs in the world, and I said, I'm going to find my manufacturer and I am going to do this. Because if I don't give myself the one hundred percent chance to succeed, I'm always gonna regret this. Like I would rather Fail and fail hard then Not know at all what could have been. Mm.

You um You essentially get to Boston to pursue this career as a fashion. But meantime, something very strange is happening with this YouTube video that you uploaded, people start to watch it and not just a few people like

Tens of thousands of people start to watch this video that you left behind. That's right. They start to watch the video, then they start asking for a butt version and an ab version and an arm version. And so, um, in my free time when I wasn't at work or on the weekends, I would film a little video for those people. And I really didn't even understand what fans were, what subscribers were, um, but it was like a little hobby that I did on the side. But uh just to be clear, you were not thinking I'm gonna really pursue fitness and being and and be building a fitness business. It was like I think there's there's legs to this pleated yoga bag that

could turn into a business. Oh yeah, I was not thinking that blogolotties was gonna be the business. It was always going to be my designs. Um and I w really was just Doing that. Uh blog alongs was like on the side for fun. That's what it was, because it kept me entertained.

Ha. And it was literally a blog. It was it started with the blog. Oh actually no, it started with that first YouTube video that I uploaded for my students in LA. And then people online were like, Well, what do you eat? And I'm like, Okay, fine. So I just like write about it. So then I wrote about it, and then my blog started drawing a lot of traffic and it really was like an open diary. Um, so yeah, I started sharing parts of my life online and it was really fun in the beginning. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because Pilates today in twenty twenty two is much bigger than it was in two thousand.

Ten. Um when you you know, when you launched Blogalades roughly around two thousand ten. Two thousand nine is when I uploaded that first video. And and do you think in a sense because it at the time it was a bit more niche? That you actually Found an opportunity.

to to have a voice in the world of Pilates because maybe they're just it just wasn't as Big as it is now. So I don't think that blogalates became big because of Pilates. I think It has continued to stay relevant because of

The way I teach and I'm able to connect with my students. Um On I mean, I'm good at Pilates. I I like doing it, so that's what I'm teaching, but whether I'm teaching how to cook or how to dance, like whatever it is. It's about that connection, um, that friendship that you're fostering with people.

And so Yeah, Pilates wasn't that big back then. It's still not super huge today. Um but the beautiful thing about blogalades and the workout videos that I put out is that they're all equipment free. So it creates

a low barrier to entry and a lot of girls who were just like me when I was sixteen doing this DVD in my bedroom all shy by myself because I don't even know what a gym is or how to get a membership. Like you start to build confidence. And so what I found is that blogalotties is kind of like the gateway into fitness for people to Get a feel for what this is, begin to understand their body, what it's craving, and get stronger than you know, maybe move on to different things. Like I've met fans who started with black lotties and now they're professional bodybuilders. Like it it's such a beautiful community.

At what point Did it become clear to you? That's This blog and And the videos that you were making.

Was the thing that actually people wanted. Was a thing that you could actually focus your attention on. What was it was it a moment when you had a certain number of views or Yeah. W do you remember what that

I do remember the tipping point, and it wasn't so much on the content side. It was never the views or the followers. It was more how it translated into merchandise. So I remember in probably like twenty eleven on Facebook. Fans were asking, Hey, we want to buy a shirt and I'm like

What kind of shirt and they're like One that says blogalotties on it. And I was like, you want a shirt with my screen name on it? Why would you want that? Like, go buy this yoga bug. That's a real brand. And then um I held a little design contest and we like ended up printing these uh shirts on like some rib shirts that I bought at Forever Twenty One. And I remember posting on Facebook and they like completely sold out within like a couple minutes and it's like oh my gosh Like people actually want this. And so th I tried like another design. I tried another. And that for me, that was the moment I knew This was a brand, and that I was able to sell something because people wanted to become a part of the journey, the story.

And they really trusted. me like as an instructor and hopefully at that point beginning to trust me as a designer as well. At that point in two thousand eleven when when you start to think about Making a product, a T shirt. Did you start to think I mean I I

You know, I I imagine maybe not, but I don't know. Did you start to think, you know This is this is a business. This could be my business. I think I always Just kept serving the fans. If they asked for a bottle, I would try to make a bottle. And then it got to a point where like and I had moved back to um California at this point because

I had quit my job and I wasn't really making any money. And so I had to move back into my parents' house. And I remember we were shipping out of their garage. And then It started growing to a point where it was like okay, now I'm selling thirty thousand bottles a month of one design. Wow. And we had to get a warehouse. Like like I it just kept growing and growing and growing and the things I was designing, like people wanted it. It was so crazy. Alright, so you

And you've got this growing Um business. Uh well, or or the screen. Brand.

um and and fan base. At which point did you realize that you needed help? That you could not do this on your own. When we move to the warehouse. Um my parents agreed to help me in the beginning just to like get that set up and then

Later as blog a lotties and pop flick started to grow. I needed to hire a team around me to help. you know, do more obviously. And

That was probably around twenty thirteen, fourteen. It sounds like your parents came around that they clearly were at that point supportive. Even though you didn't become a a doctor or a lawyer. They

Began to be supportive, but prior to seeing those bottles being sold like crazy. It was constantly When are you getting a masters? When are you going back to school? Um so they were supportive, but the thing with our family or maybe Asian families is that It's still never enough.

Mm-hmm. I um Yeah, I wonder when you began to really Grow and scale.

uh six point two five million subscribers to the channel and If it's Over a billion. But You know, as you were growing what

explains it. Did you use any specific strategies to grow your audience? The strategy that has worked for me for the past thirteen years is really The intention. And from the beginning, from that first YouTube video, my intention was to connect with my students. And because I started in a time when There wasn't ad revenue, there weren't sponsorships, there was no like being famous and having followers. You just like you did things because you did it and you connected with people.

I think that has really allowed me to stay relevant this entire time. But also In terms of like was there a viral video or something that really pushed me? Like, no, there wasn't. Actually was like really steady growth. And because I'm also willing to change with the times and change with the algorithms and change platforms or Explore platforms so that you don't become stagnant. And I remember like just a few years ago prior to the pandemic, um, TikTok was becoming a thing.

I had no idea how to use it, but I went on there and I gained a whole new following. I have like 2.8 million on there now. And when I joined TikTok and I was teaching Pilates and workouts, There were so many people being like, Oh, a tricep tip? That's so cool. Like I did like it was new to them, and I actually saw that. audience transfer over to my YouTube channel And actually decrease the the age of my um average audience. Like you have to keep exploring and trying and not being afraid to fail, otherwise you're gonna get stuck.

Alright, we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back we'll hear more from Cassie about the Blocky Ladies business. Um stay with us, you're listening to how I built this lab. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. It's Guy Raz here with Cassie Ho. We're talking about how she built what would become this incredible fitness empire around Pilates, Blagalotties, products and

Amazing content. We'll get there in a moment. Kessy One of the things that you you've done throughout your career in continue to do is you make m virtually all your all your content, your videos are free. Right. So anybody can go to Blagulates and and search for A fitness video. And it's free.

From the beginning were you were you thinking, Yeah, I'm just gonna make this free and we'll figure it out later, or did did anybody ever Especially as you start to grow in popularity, did you ever have people coming to you and saying, Hey Cassie, you know, you've gotta start putting this behind a paywall or you know create a subscriber service or Or things like that. Yeah, oh my gosh. So many people would tell me that.

Um, other trainers would be like, Why aren't you making people pay for this? They need to pay for it. And like, interestingly enough, those people who told me that still don't have an audience. Like Forмі, it's like The workout videos are to connect and for me also the marketing, right? Like I'm using my mats, I'm using my bags in the videos, and like people see that and they also want it, but I'm creating content that is either

uh that is valuable to people or shareable to people or entertaining to people and that is what helps you grow and connect. And then once you're able to make that trustworthy relationship Then maybe they they want to explore you a little bit more, get a little bit deeper into your world, but Blog audience has grown a lot because of the free content. So so really the videos were a vehicle to

build out other things. The videos were in in a sense an engagement tool, but I imagine that today, with all of the views you receive, it's also a source of revenue for your business. I mean through the ad advertising. Okay, so you wanna hear crazy stack. Yeah.

Okay. My ad revenue from YouTube makes up just one percent. Uh All the revenue that I may.

Mm-hmm. With a billion. Across your channels. That's unbelievable. Yeah.

So YouTube really can't sustain your business at all. We've heard this in the past, but but clearly cannot sustain your business,'cause how many people work work for you or work in your business, in your company? I have twelve full time employees and we work with about thirty to forty contractors on the daily. Yeah. So you can't you can't sustain that if If one percent of your revenue is coming from YouTube. No, absolutely not.

It's m so it's amazing. I mean, given that you've y that that you had all those v you've had all those views on YouTube. In a sense you you clearly it sounds like you recognize pretty early on that YouTube was not gonna be the driver of revenue, but YouTube was gonna be an incredible engagement tool because through YouTube You've been able to obviously

you're known as a fitness instructor, you've written a book about it. Um but you have a whole product line that's available at Target. You've got this whole business called Pop Flex, where you sell. apparel that you design and stationery and accessories, equipment. I mean so

It's it's it's like I guess it's this multi channel, right? This multi stream of different things that you offer all built around this Core. Free content. Right. I built my audience on the free content. Most people know me as a fitness instructor. I've changed people's lives and bodies through it and That will always be the core too. And I I don't think my business would be as big as it is right now.

without that home base that YouTube gave me. But now I have this this opportunity to transform my content as well. And it's seeming like that's what people are wanting as well. So it's just really interesting. How

How it's changed because I've been in this industry so long and you'll see people get really big really fast. And then you'll see them, you know, I'll have personal chats with people and they'll say, like, oh, the algorithm's working against me. It doesn't like me anymore. But the truth is nobody knows what the algorithm is. You just have to keep evolving. So that you stay relevant and For me, like and maybe it's that immigrant mentality that my parents raised me with, like you just have to keep trying, like keep going, like. That's why I just I I never stop

trying to change things up and it keeps it fun for me too. You know, in in this world and and as you started to get bigger and bigger and and and more more well known, you're putting yourself out there, which you have to do. But with that comes the inevitable

meanness of Um, unfortunately of social media and the world we live in and criticism and some of it might come from quote unquote legitimate sources, right? Like there might have been criticism of from people who were fitness instructors and and and may have said this isn't real fitness or this isn't a real

re exercise r regime or and and and and then there were the you know the just the trolls who are saying Oh, I don't like w w what you're wearing or Whate whatever they might say, how did you How did you deal with that? It's hard. It's hard for any of us to

abuse and and even criticism. What was your method for coping with it? I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with it. I'm a very emotional and sensitive person and it still hurts me. And yeah, like it it's interesting because having been in the public eye for thirteen years now.

And having been on different platforms, I see the same cycles happening on every platform. Every platform goes through an innocent sweet phase where everyone's cool because they don't even know what's going on. And then eventually reaches a point where there's drama and people want to make videos about you to gain traction or get clicked. Yeah. And it's happened to me on every single platform, and every time it hurts just as much. Um But how do I deal with it? I just have to remember that What I'm doing

Is True to me. I'm not here to hurt anybody, you know, regardless of what lies they're trying to spread. And At the end of the day There are

way more people that I'm impacting positively than negatively. And the negative ones I mean that's a story that they want to spin and I just can't dwell on that and it's it's really hard. I mean when you get a negative comment or negative videos about you like You can't stop thinking about it. So I'm still working um on how to have A tough heart.

But I'm just sensitive in my soul and so it's something that's really difficult for me. Yeah. I have been able to spin criticism or just hate comments in my favor. A few times in my life now, and one of them um I remember being so upset about the way people were attacking my body that I screenshotted all of them and I created a video about okay, well what if I photoshop my body to exactly how you wanted me to look like And I had those words pop on screen as I made my waist smaller, my boobs bigger, my butt bigger. And that video went crazy viral. And people love that. They love seeing you

Defy this negativity and this hate. And so I guess that's one of the ways that I've dealt with it. But let me tell you, it is hard. When I have to go look at those comments. because I'm searching for something that I need to use in my video. Like it's really, really hard, but I have to go in with like a steel heart and just like take a deep breath and be like, Okay, let's do this. Hm. Um

If you were to You know, and I'm sure you get asked this a lot from people who are trying to break into to this world, right? Because you essentially created your own Media. company and through that media company built.

A fashion. W you wanted to get into fashion, you did indeed. You pick the third career, the failure, right? Not loyal not locked back to that failure and here you are. quite a successful failure. But you really built it on a media company that is yours. And you didn't have to

go through a uh a legacy media company to do that. A lot of people are interested in doing a version of that today because You can do that through TikTok and through YouTube and whatever else emerges over the next five years that we don't even know about yet. What when people do come to you and say, I want to do this, where do I start? What do you say? The start has to be

With your intention You have to stay true to that. What is your why? I mean, whether it's a fitness journey, a career journey, whatever you're pursuing, you have to know your why. Because when things get really hard, you have to be able to fall back on that and let it pull you out. That's number one. Secondly, if you're gonna be creating content

What value are you providing to other people? People aren't just gonna. Watch you to watch you. Like maybe some people, like some really cute people. Like, yeah, maybe, but if you're gonna build a brand. You're gonna be giving something to people that's either entertaining, um, it's shareable, it's educational, like something in that. That expertise is what's also going to allow you to create a service or a product one day. When people want to get in deeper with you.

So I mean that would be my advice. I know it's like kinda higher level, but like if you can answer those questions Then you're you're on the right path. You know, I'm curious, Cassie, because part of your business is built around you and your personality and your

uh your appeal, right. And so I wonder When you think about where you take your business, right? Because it is a business and of course it's a community, but it's a business. Do you think about what It looks like without Cassie Ho,

involved with it one day. Or you know, because at some point uh maybe you you want to move on, you want to sell it, or You want to do something else. It's har you we can't scale ourselves as individuals, right? So

Do you think about that? Do you think about ways that you can continue to grow your brand and your business. Beyond you as a personality? I think about that Every single day, and it's actually one of my goals to be able to grow my brands without my influence. Um, of course it's leaning on me right now, but my goal is for

Pop Flex especially to become a legacy brand that lives on past when I die, like for hundreds of years. And I want that same ethos of like helping women find the joy of fitness, like to still be there. I need to figure out how to make that happen. Um, but I think if I continue with The innovation, really testing the limits of fashion and pairing it with fitness, like We will get there.

So yeah, I think about that every single day. Cassio, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me, guy. Hey, thanks so much for listening to How I Built This Lab. Please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at HowI Built This, and mine is at GuyRoz, and on Instagram, I'm at guy.ros. If you want to contact the team, our email address is H I B T.

at id.wondery.com. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with editing by John Isabella. Our music was composed by Raptin Arab Lui. Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Chris Massini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Liz Metzger, Josh Lash, Sam Paulsen, Catherine Seifer, and Carrie Thompson.

Our intern is Margaret Sarino. Neva Grant is our supervising editor, Beth Donovan is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. To how I built this.

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