Ariel Helwani Is Building His Own ESPN. He Already Has 1m+ Followers. He Tells Us How.

I knew he wanted me out. He wanted me out from before I even got there. Like from the moment the news came out that I was signing, he was trying to get me to not even have day one at ESPN. And so just being a hundred percent honest, th I I'm a petty guy. There was a part of me that almost wanted to stay In spite of him. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I can be what I want to

I put my law in it like my day song. On the roadless travel, never looking back. We're live now, so we we always hit recording right away. Oh wow. Hitting me with the uh the blind sided live. I like it. Well it's it's said. That's how the real pros do it, Ariel. I don't know how you guys do it on TV, but the real pros just go live abruptly in mid time. I love it. I love it. I'm always ready. So we um Do y we got introduced through a friend, my uh our buddy John, who's apparently your closest buddy.

And um I like I don't know what you know about us and we could tell you about it in a minute, but basically like we're we're pretty popular in the business world and let's start with that. Yeah, pretty big deal. Pretty big deal is what's happening. Anthony Pettis is a fan, I know that. Yes, we're we're not nearly as big of a deal as you are in your world, but like, you know, we're on the cusp of being pretty big. And Uh we've talked to a bunch of amazing people. We've talked to titans of industry. We've talked to billionaires, we've talked to people who have tens of thousands of employees, people who

Products you use, whatever. I have never been as starstruck or as nervous to talk to someone else now I'm such nonsense. No, I swear to God, Ariel, I've been listening to you for for Maybe ten years uh I've never been this nervous.

Okay, um and so for the audience at home, uh the only reason why Sam is saying this right now is because I think you recorded this after the uh the explanation of what happened last time. We were supposed to actually do this a month ago and he stood me up. So he's trying to butter me up'cause he still feels bad. He was in some villa in Hawaii I'm on the east coast, freezing my butt off here. And he didn't wake up in time and now he's trying to tell me that he Uh is Starstruck in front of me. Get out of here with this. No, I I I'd like to do it. As the kids say, this is full cap right here, all right? There's no cap. Sam doesn't know he doesn't know cap. He doesn't know this sort of modern lingo. Yeah.

Well, I've I I've be I'd be I'm being dead honest, uh like we've talked to a lot of uh wonderful, amazing people. I've never been this nervous because you You're you don't take a lot of shit. You uh you you call people out. You know, the whole thing with Brennan Schab is is amazing. Um the whole heel wani, the whole thug nose. I know about it all. CEO of PF Chang's. Well like every one of your guests takes their interviews from the phone uh while driving.

Uh you know, like it's all right, now let's join uh so and so. Thank you for joining us, blah blah blah. And and then they go to the shot and they're in the car, I'm like, Ah, for fuck's sake, you're in the car really. Why did you tell me that this was a good time if you're in the car? I don't know, there's just something less intimate about the car. And maybe for other people it's more intimate, but I don't know. When you're at home, you're comfortable, you've got your little water bottle or coffee next to you, it just seems like you're gonna get better stuff. But Um

All that aside, thank you for having me. In fact, uh a very good friend of mine, not named John Beer, Named Kevin Wang of Montreal. I'll give him a shout out. He currently lives in New York as well. I've known him for quite some time when I think you sent out the initial tweet that I would be on. he within seconds sent me the screen grab and said, This is my favorite podcast. I can't believe you're gonna be on it. Uh this is incredible. Tell me more, all this stuff and more. So a lot of people are apparently excited. I appreciate you guys having me. No hard feelings. It took me a couple of days to get over

Being stood up. Uh, you know, I had to rearrange my whole schedule and uh cancel on some people and things like that. But with uh with great pleasure I return to do this for real. Good. And and uh we're gonna do an intro ahead of this, so we we don't need to tell talk too much about your credentials, but basically for the people who aren't listening Ariel, you've been you've been in this game. For the people who aren't listening. Sorry. I don't think they care. Sorry, for see I told you I'm nervous, Ariel. For for the people who who don't follow you, you're basically you've been in the game since oh six. You worked for uh Vox, you've worked for ESPN, you worked for a a a ton of different uh amazing publications, but you you started as a reporter. At this point I would say you're just as much of a character of the MA scene, UFC scene, as Dana, as some of the fighters. Don't tell Dana that.

Well, I I you're you're definitely you're you know, you're you're as much of the story sometimes as a lot of the stuff going on, which is awesome. And you've built this amazingly large and loyal audience. Uh we're a business podcast, so we could talk a little bit about MMA, but what's interesting is that you've recently kind of gone s uh semi independent. So you work with BT Sports, you work with Spotify, you work with Substack, although you don't work with them, but you know what I mean, you have a Substack. And What you're doing with

journalism and an entreprene a in terms of entrepreneur being an entrepreneur is pretty amazing. Um so you kinda like have this independent uh business where I think it's kind of interesting. And I think if you are a young person wanting to get into business journalism, business media, what you are doing and also what some of the other guys are doing, Bisbing, Chail Sun and I think that is the The perfect example of what you can become. So that's why we asked you to come on.

Well, I appreciate that and I could tell you how I uh arrived to this point in my life if you'd like. Um I kinda feel like I'm an entrepreneur at heart, but I say that With the caveat that I'm a horrible business person when I think of things like finances, stocks.

uh investments like It truly Makes my head hurt. My older brother Mark is uh someone who's very good at this stuff. My dad is very good at this stuff, my brother works in uh the financial industry and all this. I was always more of the sports fan, the creative, the dreamer, that type of person.

However I consider myself an entrepreneur in the sense that I have always tried to do things Solo on my own, bet on myself. When I went to Syracuse University as a youngster, I was the only one of my friends

who left Montreal to go um study In the United States, in Canada, where I'm from, in Montreal, no one leaves. They all just go to either McGill or Concordia. And so I felt like I was kind of, you know building my own thing then. Um when I got there I uh I create you know, I I I went to the the traditional so Syracuse University, in case you don't know, is the number one school for at least in my opinion to develop sports broadcasters and they've developed the likes of you know the the likes of Bob Costas went there and Marv Albert and Mike Tarico. I mean the list is just incredible the names of the people who uh you know went to study at Syracuse over the years and they all go to this one station, W A E R

to hone their craft and develop a voice and all that stuff. And I went there and I noticed uh that everyone kinda wanted to be the same person and I never wanted to follow anyone and so I left that station after one semester and I went to like the Rinky Dink third tier student station um in the student center and I did my own combat sports show every Saturday morning over there. And so again, I was kind of just doing things on my own and trying to build out my own thing. Fast forward a long time I get to Spike TV In two thousand seven. I hate it after a week. I start my own website and that's how I get into MMA journalism. Um and I start interviewing fighters.

And I give myself six months to get notice. I don't get paid for any of this. I was just kind of using this as an opportunity to show people what I can do. Fast forward to now. And in February I'm starting to uh realize that my time at ESPN is probably coming to an end. And I'm starting to think to myself, okay, what do I want to do? What would make me happy? What's the future here? And when I came uh to realize was I can almost create this menu, this puzzle as I called it, where I'm doing this here, this here, this here, that here.

And I call myself independent Helwani independent Hilwani and yes I'm working with other people, but I feel very independent because I was able to go out and carve up my duties. Um some of it's my own, my own YouTube channel, the sub stack things like that, and some of it is I consider partnering with other people. And uh it's uh it's been an incredible few months since I was able to leave. I was terrified of leaving it initially because ESPN was my dream. I actually had to talk to a therapist about that and we can get into that as well because I didn't feel

I felt like a failure if I left after three years,'cause this was my dream. This was the mountaintop, but I was very unhappy. And uh I realized that I had to go back to that entrepreneurial spirit and start building out my own things and start doing what made me happy and be around people who make me happy and People who support you and don't want to stab you in the back and all this stuff. And so yeah, I'm very, very happy now. Now I'm working with Vox, my old friends at Vox Media. with the Ringer Spotify with Substack with BT Sport. I did a thing for Showtime recently, Bet MGM And uh it's great. I've never been busier

But I've never been happier as well. And talk talk about that that move. So you're at ESPN. The dream is realized'cause you're kind of like You're like me. I I don't know if you remember there was a show back in the day about becoming a sports center anchor. Did you ever watch this show? Oh yeah. It was like a reality show and it was only on for like two seasons or something like that. But it was great. I think anybody who grew up kind of with SportsCenter on loop Uh, you know, there was something really aspirational about ESPN. You get there

And was it that So this can happen. This happens with all kinds of entrepreneurs. You'll sell your company And then you'll feel like kind of numb, slash, bored, like, wait, was this it? This is the thing I was working for this whole time. Um, so was it that The dream really wasn't a dream, or was it that oh it came to an end and I gotta figure out where to from here. So what was the ESPN s side like? Did the mountain top feel like you thought it would feel, or what was that like? Yeah, so that's a great question. I uh always wanted to work at ESPN. That was sort of the end goal. I remember being a young kid going on vacation to the United States with my family

Um we'd get to the hotel and my brothers and I would watch Sports Center on loop. You remember in the mornings they would have like one episode that they would tape and they would just repeat it over and over again and I would repeat it and I was just so taken by the magic of sports television and the characters and the highlights and all this stuff. And I'll be honest, when I got there right off the bat, uh I w I was disappointed. The first few months at ESPN were very hard for me, uh, because I had this vision in my mind of what it would be like. And uh the resources

And uh the commitment to, you know, excellent content and coverage and uh attention to detail and all this stuff and It Honestly, it just wasn't what I expected. Now over time we kind of found our groove and I got to do a lot of fun things and I'll be honest in the back of my mind

I was like, I don't know how long I'm gonna last here. Partly because of the fit. But also partly because of the relationship with the UFC and not being able to cover the sport the way I want to cover the sport. And uh I tried to check off as many boxes as possible. And so hosting a radio show, I wanted to do that, I checked that off.

Doing a an E sixty profile. on my good friend Daniel Cormier, I check that off. Doing NBA sidelines, I check that off. OTL outside the lines checked it up. Sports Center checked it up. So I was trying to do as much as possible because I knew at some point this was not I was not gonna be a twenty five year lifer. I came to that conclusion pretty early on, one of those guys who stays at ESPN for all those years. And uh, you know, it it it was tough, and I'm going from doing a show in a beautiful studio that I helped um design in in a i in in in New York City to

a a a very small studio. uh with not the same resources to then going To Bristol, Connecticut, twice a week driving four hours back and forth Mondays and Wednesdays. Back and forth. So two hours and two hours in the same day. Twice a week. And uh, you know, sometimes it's you know it it's you're exha I'm doing a show that's three, four hours long I'm mentally tired after this show and I have to get back in my car and drive two hours

s often in the winter it's pitch black, like this wasn't very fun. Um, and yet here I am, you know, it's the dream job, it's ESPN, and then on top of that, it's all the other drama that you have to deal with behind the scenes. So yeah, I I mean I came to the conclusion around a year ago, well not a year ago now, like last summer Okay, you know, what do you want to do?

What would make you happy? Um Would leaving be the right move, would that make you happy? And you know, I there was a part of you know, I knew

Honestly, I knew there were people that probably wanted me to leave. You know who I'm talking about. People in the UFC probably wanted me to leave. Um I don't and i i if you're not listening basically you've had and you just actually did a wonderful YouTube yesterday where you explained the background. But basically you've had an issue or Dana White, the The president of UFC has had an issue with you for

Uh a variety of reasons. Whether he claims you're too negative, he says you've You've uh leaked some information. There's always been some tension there. All of it's wrong. Uh he couldn't be more wrong, but you know, he has his uh He has his business and his motives and uh and and it would be

It would be great if we could meet in the middle like we once did, but You know. Uh, that's neither here nor there at this point. Um so yes, I knew he wanted me out. He wanted me out from before I even got there. Like from the moment the news came out that I was signing, he was trying to get me to not even have day one at ESPN. And so just being a hundred percent honest, th I I'm a petty guy. There was a part of me that almost wanted to stay

In spite of him. And I don't want them to win. I didn't want them to win because I knew that they would celebrate if I left. In fact, when I announced that I was leaving ESPN, I got a text message. From an unknown number that's not on my phone saying, I told you we'd get you out of ESPN, bye bye. Now I don't know who sent me that text message. I have my theories, but like I so I needed to go talk to someone To figure out how to get over that to not stay at a job.

In spite of someone, which is absolutely ludicrous. to do what makes me happy, to to have fulfillment in my heart. um you know to to wake up and be excited to be around people that make you, you know, happy and support you and all that stuff. I had to get over that in my brain, and thankfully I did. Um and so it took it took some time. I don't have any regrets. Do you do you tell the the therapist about Petty Hwani, about Hilwani? Do they does the therapist support all these characters that you have in in your arsenal? Sometimes okay, what is the end goal here? What are you trying to accomplish? Are you bringing more stress

Um, but she really helped me realize what is important and what makes me happy and not sticking around to, you know, stick it to people and things like that. And a as I said on my show on Wednesday, I don't know if I end up at this point if uh if I don't talk to a therapist. And I was always someone who was afraid of talking to a therapist because I thought that it made me weak. I thought that it it it it would be um a sign of weakness that I was, you know, um you know needing help and all this stuff and and honestly Uh I'm so happy and thankful that I got to that point. It was a weird way to get there, but you know, I'm happy that I was able to talk to someone who helped me figure things out.

Therapy's like exercise. I'm like, look, it even if you look skinny, you should still exercise, you know. Even if you're like in a okay place, you should still go and do stuff. And particularly if you're fat you should exercise. If you're in a bad mental spot, you should definitely go and do therapy. So I I don't think you should exercise up my Peloton bike helped me a lot. I got one of those. I mean a lot of things help me clear my head And uh I don't have any regrets.

I don't even have uh one thing that I had to talk out was I didn't want to have ill feelings towards ESPN. I love sports. I was just watching my Nick's beat the Celtics in an incredible double overtime thriller last night on ESPN.

I didn't want to be the guy who couldn't watch ESPN who couldn't go on the app, who felt some sort of way about this company that meant so much to me, uh, and live with that animosity. And I was afraid that that would happen. Um I don't have any of it. I don't have any animosity towards them, the people there. I don't have any animosity towards anyone there, to be honest, because They they kept their word, they paid me till the very end, they stayed true to the contract, they even offered me a new contract. Unlike what other people are trying to say about me being fired, I was never fired. They offered me a contract and I turned it down. Um and I met some

Legend, Mike Breen, Doris Burke. I met absolute legends of the TV business there. I will never forget my time and I'm very thankful for the time, but three years was enough. It was time to move on. K can I ask you uh I wanna ask you two questions. The the the second one is actually gonna be about Dana White, and um I wanna ask you about what attributes do you think he he has that have made UFC wonderful and and and that's what I've asked people about you, I asked John to go, man, Ariel's amazing, what drives him? So it's always fun to ask other people about like the uh the the people they work with. But the first question is the the current setup right now with your business What do you think is gonna be the biggest revenue driver? Is Substack do you think gonna drive, you know, this paid newsletter business? Is that gonna drive a significant amount? Do you think it's most gonna come from BT sport, from YouTube ads? Wha what wha how's your your business set up and where's your head at in in terms of where the opportunity is?

Right now, uh my my biggest revenue driver if if you want to put in those terms is uh is Vox Media. They're they're paying me the most. Um, and that was important to me because the MMA hour was a show that I created and put a lot of time and effort and uh you know just

I mean everything. I poured everything into that show. from two thousand and nine all the way to two thousand eighteen and it was heartbreaking to see it end, even though I was going to my dream job. Um that show just meant so much to me and I think it meant a lot to a lot of people. And so that's the biggest one. And that's a do do you regard that as a YouTube channel or or is it Uh YouTube and the and the the podcast does very well. It's on Apple, it's on Spotify, it's on uh Google, it's on Stitcher, all those places as well. And you own it? I do not own it. No, I don't own it. They pay me to do that show. Uh and so that's what's interesting about my situation is like some of the stuff I own, some of the stuff I don't own, but everyone's playing nicely together in this sandbox and I'm very appreciative. It it took some time to kind of figure out all the pieces. That was the most interesting part of this. Like

It back in in February, so when I came to the conclusion that I was gonna go and uh leave VSPN and try to do things here and there. Obviously you have it oh, I'd like to do this and that, like some people call it a Chinese menu, you know, you kinda build your out your own thing. But then The actual

dance of getting everyone to play nice and be on board with all these little different things that I'm doing was the most interesting part of the whole process and I really lucked out and I found all these people like people who are okay with me having my own YouTube channel that's completely mine and the sub stack, but also doing something for the Ringer Spotify and also doing something for Vox and be so Um It's just it's just been a really interesting um exercise in Look, I I I like my friend uh Pat McAfee, here I am

Dropping uh names. Um, he's like, Oh, well you're not totally independent. You don't own everything. I'm like, Okay, fine. If you want to get, you know, uh into that whole semantics game, fine. I don't own everything, but there's an independent spirit to all of this where at the end of the day I feel like I'm partnering with other people as opposed to being a full time employee with anyone I'm not. I have an LLC now. and uh I'm able to pick and choose what I want to do. Um and so that's that's really important. But to answer your question. the biggest deal that I have at the moment is

My deal with Vox Media. You do you think long term that stays true or do you think'cause some things are are Some things pay off better immediately and then some things you say, Okay If I build I don't know the newsletter, if I build the the podcast or the ringer stuff If I build that up, three years from now this picture might look a little different. Or do you you said you don't really

think too much about business. Do not even care about that. You just do your thing and see what happens. Are you trying to get me to reveal my five year plan, my business plan right here? Are you want me to do that? Exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm looking for tw twenty thirty Ariel. W where's twenty thirty Ariel doing? Like the the what what who's the guy who started the ringer? What's his name again? Bill Simons Bill Simmons. Yeah, like you know, he was in a similar position as you, sold a ringer probably netting a hundred and fifty, two hundred million dollars when he did that. I mean, is that gonna happen to to you? Uh that would be nice. Um, I don't know. You know, uh right now Um

Obviously I'm I'm I'm very happy with the situation. I I'm really excited and it's kind of the thing that's flying under the radar at the moment, which I'm totally okay with that. Uh what I'm doing on my own YouTube channel is giving me uh as I like to say a lot of nahas. Nachas is a a Yiddish word which means kind of like fulfillment and joy in my heart because uh every week for now, every Thursday I am uh posting an interview with someone outside of the MMA world because I have been itch for a very long time and that was part of the reason why I went to ESPN. Um

to show people that I'm more than just an MMA guy, that I can interview Other athletes, authors, musicians, comedians Anyone. It doesn't matter if you're in the sports world, if you're an actor, if you're a Holocaust survivor If you're interesting, I wanna talk to you because the thing that I derive the most enjoyment from

are the interviews. I love talking to people. I could do a hun I mean, I do a four hour show twice a week now and uh I I feel like I could do it every day. It's just a lot of uh fun for me. And so I've I started that around a month and a half or so ago and uh it's just my own little thing. It's it's me and two producers, an audio guy, a video guy, and we're posting these interviews and I don't honestly care At this moment If a million people watch these interviews Or

Three people watched the interviews. For for me now I'm doing them to uh you know fulfill You know, this this little you know passion of mine to to talk to other people, to scratch that itch, but also to eventually show people the right kind of people.

Um, that I could do this. That I could be much more than just an MMA guy and it's actually the exact same thought process that I had when I got into all this Back in Two thousand seven. In fact, Uh this past Tuesday, october nineteenth,

Um Mark B fourteen year um anniversary of me launching my own site, Jerrypark.com. It's still up. Um I was at Spike TV. In September of two thousand seven I got a job working at Spike TV and Spike TV was the home of the UFC and I was working in TV production. I thought, okay, this is the best place for me, T V production, UFC Uh, they're the home of the UFC. It's perfect.

After a week there I walked into my boss's office. And uh I quit. And I said, Uh I I don't really

Think this is the right fit for me. I'm not I real like they didn't do anything creative. I'm a creative guy, I like to think of ideas, come up with things, and they were just kind of the middleman. The UFC was producing all the content. So I walked into his office, I said, I'm really sorry, thank you for the opportunity, but I don't think this is the right fit. And I'm the kind of guy Who um when he's eighty-five years old, I I I I don't want to wake up and say, I I could have done this, I should have done this, I should have zigged when I zagged, all that stuff. He was very upset. He said, You're gonna regret this for the rest of your life. This is unprofessional. No one's ever done this, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they made me stick around for a month and a half in my cubicle until they found someone to replace me. And that was the crossroads of my life.

Uh in fact, our mutual friend John uh was a part of this process where you know I would talk we would go for lunch during this process. I'm not doing anything And I'm telling him I'm gonna start my own website. And uh I'm gonna start interviewing fighters because I really wanna go into MA journalism. I really wanna show people that I could be the Howard Cosell, the the the Max Keller, the whatever of MMA. And so I started to reach out to fighters via MySpace. And every morning I would post an interview with a fighter and I didn't care if five people looked at the interviews or five hundred people looked at the interviews or five hundred thousand. I just wanted to use that to show people that I could do that.

Fourteen years later I'm doing the same thing on my YouTube page and now I want to build this and grow it. um and and use it as an opportunity to show people. But for now it's just like giving me so much joy to go back to those early days and just talk to people about things and then Now I'm like last week I interviewed Marty Fish. the former tennis player who's been, you know, very open with his battles with anxiety, and friends of mine who have never listened to my work, watched my work ever, who don't care about them and may are like, wow Dude, you're a really good interviewer. I'm like, yeah, I've been doing this for 14 years at this point, but it's it's opening me up to a whole new audience, and I'm very excited about that.

We have uh A couple of kind of like just go to phrases or principles when it comes to business. One of them is bet on yourself. And uh and I think you y so so some people are like, you know, if if some people are listening to this, they're not super into MMA. I think one of the things they could pull out is your bet on yourself mentality, especially when it's not easy, right? Like uh betting on yourself sometimes as an entrepreneur is kinda obvious. You don't you don't really have a job. You, you know

By default, you're better on yourself. You had quote unquote good jobs at each of these stops And then he said, Look, this isn't it. I'm gonna bet on myself and I'm gonna go independent, I'm gonna do my thing. So you have A strong dose of bet on yourself. You've us another one that Sam Sam uh

coined which is niches get riches, which is that I know you're a basketball fan. But you didn't go into the more established field that one that had a career track that you could tell your mom, look There's other people who have made it in this field. I could be the next whatever. uh in basketball you went for MMA, which is today fringe, let alone back in you know twenty two thousand six or whatever, like

Nobody was really There was no blueprint or there was no like um success stories doing what you were doing, I don't think at at that time. Like you are the f kind of the success story of that niche. And so I wanna hear kind of how you decided to bet on that, even though you have other interests, you have other sports that you're interested in as well. Um and then the last one is There's this great phrase which is Um

You know, you want to do the work that feels like that looks like work to others, but it feels like play to you. So like if I was gonna interview somebody four hours a day, I would be exhausted and I think you get you pick up steam by energy th by by year hour three, you're like you just hitting your groove and it gives you energy. So I I think that's another example of where you you kinda live one of these principles that we talk about. But tell me about the niche thing. Oh, the thing is great. That spoke to my heart. That spoke to my heart. That's a great line, uh niches get riches because I couldn't agree with you more. Um

When I got to Syracuse for the first time my life, like when I went to Syracuse, I wanted to be the next Costus, Marv Albert, basketball, baseball, football traditional guy. Hello, welcome to ABC Sports. I'm Ariel Hawani World Series Super Bowl. And for the first time in my life, I realized, wow. There's a lot of people in this world who are my age, who have the exact same dream as me, who are a little more polished, who have nicer hair, who don't have as big of a nose, and maybe don't have such a a foreign name. Their name is John Smith, and they just kind of fit that Bob Costus mold. And uh I never I never like to follow, you know, the pack. And so I remember telling my parents in September of two thousand one There's this sport called mixed martial arts. There's this organization called the UFC. At this point, it's not even eight years old.

And I think it's going to be mainstream. And I think in ten years there's gonna be some executive in some office, some older guy who's like, What is this crazy cage fighting sport? I know nothing about it, but apparently it's very popular. Who's the guy? Who's the voice? Who's the Howard Co MMA? And I wanna be that guy. Um and amazingly Literally ten years later.

August of two thousand and eleven, I was hired by Fox, and that was like my first big, you know, mainstream gig. Um and so it kind of worked out in that regard. But I I I say this to young people all the time when they reach out to me. And they send me, you know, Oh I wanna do this, I wanna do that, I wanna be, you know, Stephen A. Smith and all this stuff. In this day and age

You don't want to be a generalist. You You you you you you're a fan of the New York Knicks? You're a fan of the New York Knickerbackers, I'm not gonna go tune in to the radio, ESPN radio now. I'm not gonna go in my car, tune in and say, Oh, I hope you guys talk about the Nick Celtics game last night. I'm gonna go on my podcast app

And I'm going to go to the New York Knicks podcast. As niche as it gets. To hear an hour breakdown of last night's game. If I'm a big pro wrestling fan, I'm going to go to my pro wrestling podcast and listen to MMA podcast, listen to business podcasts. The days of sitting in your car and hoping that they talk about something or listening to people just talk about God knows what, those days are over. And so It is actually a lot better in my opinion to go into a niche

to be the niche guy as opposed to being the generalist. Yeah, there's a couple guys who will make it Stephen A and those guys. But for the most part, in my world, it's way better to be the niche guy. And uh I try to explain that. And and within the niche Have your own niche as well. And so like my thing interviews. I tell other people like find your thing. There was a young guy I always bring up Mike Bond, he works for MMA junkie, and he's a lot younger than I am. His niche that he used to get in the door. were stats and factoid. So he would have all these stats about all the fighters. Great.

These days, maybe it's betting. Betting is super hot right now. Use that as your niche to get in the door. So yes, I I couldn't agree more with that mindset. Um And and I would urge anyone in this day and a this day and age of a la carte You know Everything is a la carte, right?

Podcasts, streaming, all that. The more niche the better. You'll have way more success rather than being just some guy like those days fifty years ago when you were a columnist for a newspaper, those days are over. How um how Wha what size or how big is your your audience. I mean, I know the YouTube videos get like thirty thousand to a hundred thousand per

per clip per video. How what do you say the number is of your audience and what advice do you have? You could use us for example. I mean we're smaller than you, um, of like of of your tips for getting notice and and being great at at building this this empire. This is gonna sound uh Don't tell me good content. No no no no. It it's gonna sound whack, but I really don't know the size. I mean, I see the numbers on YouTube I never ask for the podcast numbers. I don't wanna know. And it's actually one thing that really bothered me at ESPN, like

Three weeks into my time there, we sat down and started like breaking down the numbers and the listening rate and and and the completion rate and all this stuff. Like I don't wanna know this. Like it's hard enough I by the way in in the uh what is it now, twelve years of me doing this, like hosting this type of weekly show and all this stuff, shows I've never had a person book the guest for me.

I I book every single guest. Every single name that you see on my show on on Wednesday, Rose and Jan Bahovich and Fader, I book those people myself. I do not have a booker. What do you just DM'em on Twitter? I mean how do you DN Fador? Now I have you know, I have their numbers, uh you know, the it I and I know what everyone likes. Like I know there's some people who respond quicker to DMs, there are some people who respond quicker to WhatsApp. There are some people who strong quicker to iMessage. Uh I never email anyone. Uh I mean you email a fighter, that's like throwing, you know, a toothpick into the ocean. Th there's no chance you're getting a a message back.

But uh you know, I'm just I'm kind of relentless like that and I'm obsessive like that and I think that I would drive someone crazy. If I said, Hey, I want to get uh Rose Number Unis on my show and then I would probably ask them a million times, Did she respond? Did she respond? Did she respond? So I'd I'd rather just put that on myself. Now, it's probably the worst part of the job And it makes me uh you know, very stressed out, but it's just the way I like to do things. So That brings enough stress. Now to know, you know, completion rate and downloads and subscribe. You must have an idea. You have a million followers on Twitter. I think B T Sport has one point two million subscribers on YouTube ish.

Um your videos ballpark, fifty thousand to a hundred thousand views per Maybe I don't know what your podcast downloads are, but like y do you know. I really don't know. No one no one has talked to me. Now okay, I'll tell you like at ESPN Uh when my show with D C towards the end we were getting, I think, on the podcast only. Now this is one little sticking point that I have when so they would sit down and they'd be like okay the podcast with D C is getting around ninety thousand downloads uh an episode. Like, all right, that's pretty good. Ninety thousand an episode once a week, one hour a week

But here's the problem. They were comparing us to other podcast only shows. Let's say the Low Post Podcast, the basketball podcast hosted by the great Zach Lowe, but that's an audio only podcast. We have the YouTube show as well. So our audience is splintered. So if you wanna know about, you know, our total audience, you gotta count those numbers as well. And In addition, you want to get into the I've never listened I listen to you every single time. I've never listened to you on a podcast app. So that's the Yeah, so that's the thing. Like uh and it would always annoy me that that we were just foc what about the YouTube numbers? Like to me I'm more of a visual guy and uh I care more about that. Like the the the audio podcast is almost like gravy for me. If you're in your car or whatever, but I'm I'm more inclined to push the the video. So

Um, I would guess If we're gonna use those numbers that's from a a few uh months ago, and I don't feel like we've really missed a beat on MMA fighting since I returned there from the video. You know, we're talking like two hundred, two fifty, but then Then there's the breakout stuff, right? Like'cause then each i each interview gets made into its own separate clip. So I don't know, man, why you're trying to stress me out here. I'm just trying to live my life and do interviews. You gave an answer, so you think a two hundred two hundred K ish an episode. I'll tell you why I think something like that matches. What are we at? Fi fifty or si I think we're at sixty thousand an episode if if you add the YouTube and the pod. So I think that's amazing. Like like I I think I've been studying a bunch of different people from uh

You know, like there's there's there's you in let's say MMA, and then there's uh you know, I don't know if you follow cryptocurrency, but this guy, Pomp, and he's like the Bitcoin guy. And then there's Tim Ferris and he's like, you know, the four hour work week guy. And there's all these people who build their brands, and they're what do I call, you know, s uh uh solopreneurs or solo media people. And and you could look at it, I did a comparison once of of Rogan's show versus you know the the the like the tonight show. And on every metric it's like, you know not even close. How many viewers do you get? How much money do you bring in? How many employees do you have? And on every metric, Rogan just like sl like beats down

And uh but people would still sort of from a prestige point of view, they think one is a television show where you wear a fancy suit and you have a monologue and a fake audience clapping, and the other one is like, you know, you just got done with a workout, you sit down in a in this little studio and you you do a podcast. What the heck's a podcast? So people haven't really caught up on this model. Um and then I sort of broke down the businesses of each. I said, Oh okay, interesting. So what it looks like to me is you get this number that I call your true fans, which is basically like the number of people who really trust you. And like let's say that's like a quarter million people for you or something like that. May maybe it's two hundred fifty thousand people that that really trust you. I'll follow you. I don't really care if you're on ESPN or MA fighting or you're with BT sport. I'll just know Ariel Hawani and I'll just kinda follow you wherever you go. It's like a a fan of LeBron James. They're not a Cleveland Cavs fan, they're a LeBron fan, and that now they're all Lakers fans. And so

Then I sort of studied the model and I said, Okay, it looks like Between two to four percent of your audience will sort of buy anything you do. Like they'll pay for your paid newsletter, they'll buy your your your hoodies. Um, you tell them, hey, I I'm Ariel, I'm in I've raised a a venture capital fund. I'm investing in startups now. They'll invest in your fund, they'll do everything. And so now there's all these new models. Before it used to be You know, you get famous and you write a book. You spend a couple years, you write a book and that's how you that's how you monetize your audience. And then people started doing courses and other st other different things like that. And I've been studying all the different models. One of the guys I st I got friendly with was

Matthew Barry at ESPN, because he has a niche, which is fantasy. And he was doing this, you know, before fantasy was sexy. And he was like convincing Yahoo and others, hey, go into fantasy. I'm telling you, like guys are nuts about this. He became the fantasy guy and he's kinda like you. He's got a little bit of a uh he's got a cushy gig with ESPN, but he's got a bit of independent. He's got his own Like Text message like list and he's got his own fantasy football thing. Oh, does he do that? I didn't know he I didn't know he uh he had his own. I actually asked the SPN.

In our negotiations, I was like, Well what if I do this? Like if I just do the D C show and the Chail show, but then I do this other stuff on my own And uh I don't know. It just uh because we're not easy about it. I think he has a couple of carve outs that for him work for him for him. Um and he got it kind of grandfathered in, basically. He's like, Yeah, I get to keep this, I I don't make too big a fuss. But if you go look at his Twitter bio, what does he link to? It's like I think he links to one of his properties basically as like one of his things. So I've been studying this model. I would say for you, I I would I I think you're in a great spot and

You know, if you just sort of think about like The m the menu of ways that How does somebody who's got a trusted loyal audience they've built over ten years monetize? There's all these creative ways beyond Um beyond, you know, ads or sponsors on my on my show. I don't know if you care about that stuff, but I don't know. I do care about you know it's interesting. Like the sub stack thing is super interesting because

I would say of the you know, the three main things that I do. Like obviously there's uh video, audio, and writing. Um, and there's there's different components all of those, but like those are obviously you know, audio, visual and and and uh writing. I feel very confident in my abilities as a video host and as an audio host. I don't feel as confident in my abilities as a writer. Now people tell me I'm good, I just don't feel like I'm as good. And I try to be very genuine when I write. I try to be myself, not someone else.

Um and I talked to a bunch of people about the writing component of my menu. Um, and everyone wanted me to do stuff that I wasn't really down with. The guys at Substack. So I I'm part of this like sub stack pro model. I don't know if you guys know about this. Okay. We like them. Yeah, yeah. So uh there was a guy named Dan Stone, who's a great guy, he reached out to me and

They basically like pitch me this thing where I can kinda do whatever I want and there's obviously this small component of it that's uh behind a paywall. I did not feel comfortable with the paywall. I'm just being honest. I said the same to him. I did not I did not feel I think most people are are in the same boat as you. Who will come from your background. I do I don't want to ac look.

I I've always been free. And uh that that's a weird thing in its own right because like thirty, forty years ago you know, you're subscribing to Sports Illustrated, you're subscribed like None we we've we've all we've programmed the audience to expect everything to be free when in reality like this stuff does

You know. stuff is worth something and and and y it technically shouldn't be free, but w it's been that way and it's hard to go back. It's hard to put the toothpaste back in the the tube. And so I didn't feel comfortable doing that. And so the conclusion but I really wanted to work with Substack. And so the conclusion that I came to was uh all the proceeds that I was getting from the subs I'm donating to charity. So I want people to know I'm not profiting off of any of this. I why I mean I don't feel comfortable. I don't feel comfortable. Dude, that's crazy. So uh my company uh I just so this this podcast was owned by my company called The Hustle. We we just sold it for a lot of money to this company called HubSpot. And before we sold it Thank you. We had a daily email that reached around two million people a day, and then we owned a subscription business called Trends that made many millions of dollars and we charged three hundred dollars a year. I think we undercharged

What is going on? Like most creators feel exactly how you feel. And I'm like, You're crazy. If you owned a restaurant. And you were cooking every single day, grinding eight hours a day, would you give that food away for free? I can't do it. I don't know why. I c even even Stemming from like the shop stuff. Uh this this company Breaking Tea, who I think are fascinating, you guys should have those guys on. They they basically like React to s actually they made this sweatshirt. I'm I don't even uh this is a name?

So breaking tea, like breaking news, breaking news. So they're like kinda quick on trends with the merchant. Uh for example, off the top of my head, Jorge Masvedal s or Nick Diaz says, Don't be scared, homie. The next day they have a T shirt out, a really cool one, and they're selling it, but they have deals with M L B P A N H L P A, so they're making stuff in real time. It's a fascinating business. And so one of the guys there w was a fan. and made a Hilani shirt in the midst of like my whole thing. I was like, Oh, this is great. And we split the cost And

All of that I'm donating to charity as well. I don't want it. I don't know. Philanthropy. That's crazy. I I I I I love you, Ariel, and I think you're totally wrong. I've listened to you enough that I know that you've uh You know, I'm married into a Jewish family. You've got this very, like, stereotypical Jewish guilt about you of like you're like And um I I I think that's weird. I I I I I think you I think you are totally uh downplay you know, it's funny, I watch you in the interviews and I could tell you're nervous or you are having issues like realizing that you're the shit.

And so a a as a fan, I will say I think you're undervaluing yourself. Um What uh Can I give you can I give you a free idea here for for as as a creator? Uh no no charge for you, Ariel. You're a friend of the house. So here's a free idea for you. Okay. One of the new little tools in the creator playbook of how to make a bunch of money. I don't know if you saw this, but Mr. Beast, who's one of the biggest YouTubers out there. Launch this pop up restaurant. Uh and and celebrities doing restaurants kinda been a thing, but uh like back in the day it was sort of like, you know, there's like Margaretville or like Gordon Ramsey's Wolfgang Puck's Kitchen or whatever the hell these things are.

Um But Mr. Beast came out with Mr. Beast burger and overnight he had two hundred locations across the country And um and you know, you think about that, you th w has this guy been pouring his you know, that that w did that take years of preparation? No, what what's happened is there's these companies like Breaking Tea. that exists that will create a virtual restaurant brand. And what they do is they partner with like let's say you did yes I I don't know I don't know what your uh maybe it's Chinese food. I don't know what your thing would be. Let's just say for a second it's it's pizza. Matsumal soup.

Mat' okay the made a y you went niche again. Like I don't know how big the market is there, but let's say let's say it was pizza, just for for for ease here. Um There's a whole bunch of mom and pop pizzas. shops in in every city. What this company does, they go partner with one in Phoenix and San Francisco and in all these different cities. And they say, Hey, we're gonna send you some packaging. That's custom Helwani branded packaging. And only on

you know, Saturday nights when there's a UFC pay per view, does this restaurant go live and the menu is themed for like it'll be like, you know, you know, a Masvidal pepperoni and like a you know a Diaz burger and whatever else. And you or you know, you make up your own names and then basically your fans can kinda order with the pay per view. Now Mr. Beast, he did his little pop-up thing. So he didn't have to really lift a finger. He just kind of said, All right, when I'll give you some ideas on the branding. Of what the menu could look like, you know what I'm prove it, yeah. I'll approve it. I'll put and I'll put my name behind it. And then when the time comes, I'm gonna tweet out that hey, this is happening and today you can go buy from my thing.

And I think this thing has done about over somewhere between fifty and a hundred million dollars in revenue off this thing. I think you know, if you just sort of assume a ten percent, you know, kickback royalty that he's getting on this. I I'm pretty confident he's doing somewhere between three and six million a year of just recurring passive revenue Um

From the Uh from his little Mr. Beastberger thing. you could do something alongside the the pay per views and that would just be for fun. Your fans would be like your I'm gonna steal that idea. But y you should be able to do it. I can interb shoot these guys. So you've done the boxing thing, you know, the with the unboxing, yes, which I made no money off of as well. I know, and I followed that and I I bought one.

Oh yeah. That was funny. I don't think you understand. Like I'm I'm a super fan. I appreciate it. And so I w what I would do is the you you went to the new house. Yeah, I am.

I would go to the um H Hawani school of journalism. I mean I I I think that that that that's Can you guys be my agent? I mean, these are all great ideas. I love this stuff. I mean I just think that you could make like I I I would imagine you could profit a a million dollars a year selling a five hundred to a thousand dollar whole school of like You've never heard of them.

You've never heard of me before w with this podcast. I I did a course on writing, how to be a better writer. And again. I'm nobody. And I did I think what did I do?

250 K last month in this course. Um and so you know, you sort of average that out a across the year. I mean these are like kind of like million dollar product lines. I I create the course once and then I just run I just say, hey, the new batch is open next month. And then it runs again and people get great value. At the end of the the thing, I say, Hey, you know, you paid whatever nine hundred dollars. How much value do you think you got out of this for you and your business, your career? Right. And they're like, you know, on average it's 10 K, basically, is what they say. So they get 10 X return on their money uh from self self-assessed on what they believe they got out of the course. So You know, I could send a film crew to you right now. And we could film a a course on how to you know how to m break into journalism, how to make it as a as a as a journalist.

And then screw Syracuse. Uh, the people who really want this, all you need is you know, basically a thousand people who really want this, who pay you a thousand dollars for this. That's a million dollars a year of basically pure profit because the video production costs are very, very small for this. Wow. This is great stuff. Who would have thought I'd come on here and get all these ideas? I feel like my head is spinning right now. Thank you, guys. Can you can you help us now?

Please. Talk to me about audience building. I mean, like I you seem like a guy who like you don't ha you don't do like a a significant amount of like growth tactics. You just you're just I think you're talented and I think you're you have tenacity, so you've been doing it for forever. Um But what have have have for for us and anyone listening who wants to break in to to to do what you've done, what uh what advice do you have on on audience building and and

and getting I mean, I know you don't you're not you're not a whore like a view whore at all. But You know, it's still you want people to like your stuff and you want a lot of people to like it. What do you have for that? So m my mindset um was always okay. The first thing was, you know, look at the landscape, look who's out there doing things. um it's okay to derive some kind of inspiration from this person or that person, but at the end of the day, like you need to

develop a unique voice and give people a reason to tune into you, right? Um, don't be a copycat. Don't just try to do something because someone else is doing it. And so that was my big thing. And that's why the interview lane, I was like, Oh, no one is doing this in MMA. I should, you know. develop uh my own voice in this lane and be the guy, be be the leader here. And so that's the first thing. The the second thing is like it it's it's exhausting, you know, you have to work your ass off to build the audience, to put the content out, to make it as good as possible. Um, be consistent, you know, pick a day. I if if you're doing a a podcast or something, you like pick a day. Monday is your day.

Don't miss a Monday. You know, like people who do oh one here, two here, take a break here. It's very hard. You have to be consistent, you have to be reliable, you have to be relentless, you have to be professional. So my thing was, you know, reaching out to the fighters and the fighters Um, who I reached out to, I was very, you know, respectful towards, I was very professional towards. I didn't keep them for very long. I would keep them for like twenty minutes in hopes of Getting them to come back the next time, right? Because it's not just about this time, it's about the next time and the next time and it's the next time. And so I don't want them in the back of their mind to say, like, oh, this guy kept me for an hour. What a pain in the ass. I'm not gonna, you know, do this again. Um and then afterwards very thankful, very respectful, very professional. And then over time, you know, was like you know developing these relationships.

Um checking in with fighters, checking in and it's not with in my world it's fighters, but it can be with anyone else. If you're an interviewer and you're interviewing tech people and things like that. Like one big thing is You know, I don't just talk to fighters. um when I need something from them. I don't just reach out to Michael Bisping when I want him on my show. We talk about things all the time. I mean in some respects some of these guys have become friends of mine.

Um and they don't feel like they're being used. It's important to be a human being towards your, you know, your your guests, your sources, your things like that. And so then when it is time to ask for something, they are more than happy to help you out because you've asked about their dog who passed away, or their wife who had surgery, or their son who won a big thing in football or whatever. And so these are all kind of things that you develop, not with the, you know It's To me it's always very genuine. I'm not doing that. I'm not checking in on the dog because I hope that in three weeks it's gonna pay off and he has you know, you know, he he he's willing to come on my show. It's just being a human being about all this and and Working hard, working your ass off, trying to be different, putting the content out.

social media is a massive thing now, obviously. You can't do a show without having a social media presence. And I don't care if you have one follower or a million followers, you gotta put the clips out because it's so funny to me. I I hear from people all the time like oh That thing that uh Rose said on your show was awesome. And then in the back of my mind I'm like, Oh, that's the one clip that we chose from the interview. Did you watch the interview or did you just watch the clip on my Instagram? And oftentimes it's just the Instagram clip, and that's okay. It's just about being out there, getting the stuff out there, making it shareable, um, and then hopefully it attracts more people to check you out and check you out. But like if this doesn't happen, you know, I started this this particular part of my life in two thousand seven. I graduated in two thousand four. It took me fourteen years just to get to ESPN. And so a lot of people are impatient and they want to see the results right away, it's just not gonna be that way. How many people first of all I wanna know how how often are you working because UFC fights end on one a at one AM midnight on in New York and you do a post re you do a recap show often, but how often are you working and also how many people does it take to run a content

Your content operation. So I feel honestly, I feel like I work every day. Uh I don't know if that's good or bad, but it's it's for the most part with pleasure. Like I I don't ever feel like oh man, I need a break, I need a vacation, this and that Now uh part of going back to the therapist, uh I was

Terrified of leaving ESPN and then kind of disappearing. However, I then came to the conclusion, hey, you know what? Distance makes the heart grow fonder for me and for them. And so June fifteenth was my last day DSPN. And I essentially disappear till August fifteenth. I was still on social media, I was still doing stuff here and there, but I took a two month break. And it was freaking awesome because I went home to Canada to see my parents for the first time in two years because of the pandemic. I just I really needed that break.

Um and I think that that's important if you're doing something, you know, for uh you know, for a very long time. I think it's important to give yourself, you know, that type of uh break as well. But um for for the most part now, I I feel like I'm working every day, especially with all these different people and all these different projects. And there's travel and stuff like that. Uh there is no real break and I'm okay with that. Um you just kinda find your moments. I can be a lot better. I wish I could put the phone away.

A lot sooner at night. I wish I didn't wake up and check my phone right away. I wish I was a little more present um at times. I'm working on that. But I gotta tell you guys like I feel like I'm working every day. But I'm also in this state where I I've never been happier. And uh

the the work has been so fulfilling And it puts me in such a good mood to create this stuff and to be there for people like there is no greater compliment that I could get. When someone writes me and said, I had a horrible day.

And then I checked out your show and it made me forget about my day. Or during the pandemic I was so down. And U and D C used to make me laugh. And uh you know, I just got a message from someone who's in Australia and and it's been horrible there with the lockdowns and you you know, I'm so happy your show is four hours again because you give me eight hours a week of stuff to think about outside of the lockdown. I can think about MMA and I have access to these fighters again. Like there is no greater joy than I get than that. Um, and so I don't mind it, but also, you know, I have him into a UFC fight

in uh a year and a half. March of twenty twenty was my last UFC fight, and partly because of the pandemic, now partly because of my job. And you ask me right now Big time UFC fight. Um Connor McGregor's return fight. Las Vegas T Mobile sold out crowd on a Saturday night. In July

The buzz, the celebrities, the atmosphere, nothing better, right? Or You ask me Do you want to go to your son's soccer game with ten other parents there at the park nearby? I am choosing that soccer game. Without

a a a a shadow a shadow of a doubt in my mind. Like I get so much enjoyment at b being at those games, being a parent, being with my kids, but then also doing the work that fulfills me and makes me happy. There was a time where I thought I had to be at every event, leave my family, travel every weekend because I needed to be omnipresent because Woody Allen once said 80% of success is just showing up. And that served me early in my life and career. It doesn't serve me anymore. And so now that I'm able to pick and choose what I want to do and work with people who I want to work with and do the kind of content that I want to Do but also Be there for my family and my kids at this stage of their lives.

gives me a lot of joy and so I never thought I would get to this point where Wow. I don't have to go to the events and I can still do great stuff and still be happy and still be followed and still produce amazing and and still be there for my kids. Uh it it in a weird word, I'm I'm so thankful to the man above because I feel like it all kind of like fell into place at this point in my life.

Someone send that clip to Connor. Aerial. chooses soccer game oh a six year old soccer game over Connor McGregor's return. It's the truth and it's has not I just use Connor because that's the biggest name possible. Obviously Uh, you know, he's been very good to me. And it's been an absolute honor and I would love to go to events, you know, of course like one a week or sorry, one a year, two a year, three a year, four. Like I got to go to the Jake Paul thing. That was a great, great experience.

Um I was just using the the most, you know, crazy example possible, the biggest name possible. The point is Uh I used to have FOMO. I used to feel sad and depressed when I wasn't at the events. because uh I felt like I was missing out. I was becoming more relevant.

And uh I don't feel that way anymore. I feel very confident in what I'm doing. And before we wrap up the the content team, what what's your team and process looking like? Oh right, yes. Um so right now, you know, it kind of So the dream obviously is to like, you know, I think I don't know if you guys are fans of Pat McAfee, but I think that he is doing media in sports at least better than anyone right now.

Um He's just doing an incredible job and he has his group of like I think eight or so guys doing work for him and his social media is brilliant because they're often tweeting out things and he's not even a part of it. It's just like a this well oil machine and then he's going to do Smackdown he has his private plane. I mean what a life this guy lives. Now I am nowhere near that at the moment. Uh I also didn't play in the NFL Um but Uh right now I have I would say

Three people. Who work With me. Uh one person's social media, one person's video, one person's audio. Um and that's just me.

you know, my L C type of thing. And then I have people who are working on other Projects, you know, with the Vox stuff they have people who work with me there, Ringer people, et cetera. But uh yeah, I would love to to grow that out. But I think the three most important people to have right now. It doesn't have to be I mean, like I all those interviews that you saw for me over the years, I only had one cameraman. I didn't and and I didn't have an audio person, I didn't have anything.

Uh, I don't think you need a gigantic team of people to do stuff. But yes, it would be nice over time to have, you know, maybe two social media people and have this person who's thinking of this and someone who's, you know, managing like I was laughing because You know, you said you had Ben who did the scheduling and I was like, Man, I wish I had a Ben. I wish I had someone doing my scheduling. I wish I w I was uh in that position or I could even delegate some of that stuff. That's part, you know, my problem as well. I I I don't do well at delegating. Um, but it will come, it will grow, and then eventually it will be fun to have a store, a merch store to do the stuff that you're talking about.

And uh maybe make money off of it and not feel bad about it. I mean there's a lot more. I feel like I'm just I'm thirty nine Uh I I've never been happier about, you know, like my age, my life. Um And uh I remember when I I was a a young kid and we went to uh to Boston

And my mom turned forty and I remember she locked herself in the bathroom and she was crying'cause she was so sad that she turned forty. And I joke about this with her now as I'm about to turn forty. Thank God she's still alive and well. And I'm like, I'm so happy to be forty. I feel I'm way happier at thirty nine forty. Then I was at Nineteen twenty. Um, and I just can't wait to see how this all plays out. Last thing I wanted to ask you real quick.

You've mentioned Jake Paul. And you talked about audience building and all the good stuff. uh consistency, quality Hard work. But there's also controversy. Jake Paul is a master of controversy. Connor McGregor is a master of controversy. And you have leaned into the controversy. I don't know if you've leaned in, I don't know if it's a work. I don't know if you if you if we're actually backing away.

the con you know, you are the the number one MMA guy and you're banned for life from UFC from UFC events by because the president of the UFC has a feud with you. And Brendan Chauv now has a little bit of feud with you. And uh it's highly entertaining. I click every single one of them because, you know, same every everybody loves dra drama. Everybody loves the fight. Uh you know, we all turn our heads uh and and look whenever there's there's a brawl that breaks out. I'm I'm I'm I'm a your clip hit his hi it's called Ask the Nose, I believe. It is the nose. On the nose, sorry. And it's and it's been all about lately his fight with other other folks. It's great. So t tell me about that. Leaning into that. Is that intentional? Is that good for business? Uh w you're having fun with it? You're actually angry. What's going on? Okay, well I'll just say I am not banned for life. I was banned for forty eight hours, but that was back in two thousand sixteen. Over time

There's been some revisionist history where people think I'm still banned. I'm not banned. I've been to a bunch of events since then. Um But uh yes, of course there was that feud there that happened and all this stuff, and and that's all well and good. And now as I've come you know, into this new era and uh this persona heel wani, thug nose, el Nudis, whatever you want to call me. Uh, I've just enjoyed being able to

Respond to people. And I think part of this comes from the fact that when I was at ESPN, they kept telling, take the high road, take the high road. Like a lot of people were taking shots at me. And I had to take the high road, take the high road, muzzle, muzzle, muzzle, muzzle. Censor yourself. And then all of a sudden I become Free And uh I think

as a byproduct of being told to take the high road for the last three years, I just kinda snapped and exploded. And uh I think people have enjoyed See look. I'm not this wimp. that people think I am. Uh I don't have big muscles. I'm not a fighter. I'm not this but

I'm a crazy fiery Middle Eastern kid who grew up uh getting into fights all the time while I was playing sports, arguing with like I'm not the I you know, I have glasses, I look nerdy, whatever. I'm I and at times I've actually leaned into that because th that's a good gimmick in this world of, you know, big strong fighters, alpha males, I'm the beta. But I'm really not that guy. And the idea of letting people

Talk smack about me, walk all over me, disparage my name, lie about me. It's just not gonna happen anymore. And so I don't care. And it was funny, like Brendan was saying, like I wouldn't say this to his face. Like, did you guys forget that I stood in front of Rampage Jackson when he wanted to like Bite my head off. Did you guys forget that Nick Diaz wanted to beat me up? Did you guys forget that you know Mayhem Miller trashed my studio and I just sat there like I'm n I would say anything to anyone's face. I'm not the guy who sits in front of a keyboard or a camera and says stuff that wouldn't you know, that I wouldn't have the courage to say in front of anyone's face, and I don't think I'm disrespectful. I just, you know, am not that guy. And so Uh I think he said a bunch of lies about me and then I just kinda said something and people liked it and then he kept doubling down and so I didn't go into all this saying like oh I'm gonna come out and start wars with people and start all this beef. It's just like

Now I don't have someone telling me to take the high road. And I'm a little older and I'm a little more confident and I'm a little wiser and uh People are enjoying You know, I I I yeah, I'll be honest. Like I I've realized over time, you know, people want to know more about me. They want to see me talk about myself. It doesn't always have to be about the guests and all that stuff, and that takes some time. Um

you know, to get used to because it's it's it's taught, you know, you're you're you're you're taught very l early on in your career, like it's not about you, you're not the story. But um Yeah, now I'm just having fun with it and and yeah, I'm a pro wrestling fan and I I I like the the drama and all that stuff. You could say what you will about all of it, but At the end of the day, none of it is fake. None of it is a work. I'm not looking for any of this. I'm not trying to get paid off of any of this. I'm not trying to do it for the views and all that. I'm just tired of people talking shit about me and me having to eat it.

And so those days are over. And I don't care who you are I'm going to clap back, as they say. And uh I think I'm pretty damn good at the promos. And I may not be able to fight you and I've no interest in fighting you, but I think I could go toe to toe with you. In a uh in a verbal war. And so, yeah.

It it feels good to stick up for yourself. And this is why I was nervous to talk to you. It's because I I I fully believe that. I I I I've I first you you uh You're sharp and you're not afraid. So We're at the top of the hour. Um I wanna be respectful. Dude, this has been badass. I hope hopefully uh you don't talk too much about yourself like a n as a guest, and I hope you've enjoyed this because I think a lot of you enjoyed it.

I hope you guys have enjoyed it. I hope you felt like uh this was worth your your while. I appreciate all the questions about building the business and betting on yourself and um I'm learning a lot about that as well now, you know, with with all this LLC stuff that makes my head hurt talking to my accountant. But uh I would urge anyone out there who is uh passionate about what they do.

and who believes in what they do, I don't have a lot of confidence like if you and I I bet you, Sam, you and I go get a coffee. Right now. Nearby? You are a much more confident person than I am. You will walk up there and have your chest out and you're and it's probably because you just sold your company for a few million and you're loving life and and life could be better. I'm not I'm actually a very shy person, a quiet person. I keep to myself I had horrible social anxiety. However, when it comes to this stuff

I believe in myself and I believe that no one can do it better than me. And uh that sounds cocky, but It took me a long time to actually be able to say that. Um, and so I'm really enjoying getting to do this stuff on my own and getting to do this stuff the way I want to do it without anyone telling me how to do it.

And uh I appreciate your interest in in my story and I appreciate you guys uh It's been a therapy session for all of us, maybe a little bit. Well, Thursday's is my therapy day, so uh I uh I you know, I was gonna have actually my session. I canceled it for you guys. So I I'm I'm doubling down here because we were supposed to I don't know if you guys know this, we were supposed to do this last month and you stood me up. No, I'm just joking. I'm not gonna go back there. I'm not the letting go type. I hold on to things forever. That's part of my film as well. Yeah, I know. I know I've listened to you long. Don't feel guilty about that. That's what as your therapist today, that's that would be my feedback. Thank you. I appreciate that. In fact, I don't know when this is coming out, but I'll just say part of you know me trying

Tinker with things. I'm doing a thing for founding members of my sub stack. um this evening. I'll I'll do it three more times. Over the course of the year. Where it's just the founding members, the people who paid a hundred and eighty

So The sub stack is five dollars a month, fifty a year, or there's the founding member. Um, I picked a hundred and eighty because the number eighteen is a special number for Jewish people. Um and I'm doing a super secret V VIP one night only.

No holds barred Zoom chat with uh the people who signed up. Where they can ask me whatever they want for an hour. Are you gonna be there? Yes. Well, I appreciate you signing up.

Yes. But don't record this and take notes and post it to your millions of followers'cause it's supposed to be V V I P I'm gonna spill all the tea release all the dirt on all the bad people out there, but it's just for us, our little group. And there's not I don't I honestly I'm kinda nervous that no one's gonna show up. So the f it might just be me and you, Sam, just for the record. I would love that. Sam calls it. Yeah. Well thanks, man. This is badass. Uh hopefully uh you've enjoyed it. Uh

This is awesome. We would you gotta come back again. I w I would be happy to just Don't you know. Stand me up next time. Ha ha ha. Yeah, let go, bro.

Thanks, guys.

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