#388: Lisa Ling — Exploring Subcultures, Learning to Feel, and Changing Perception

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Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to deconstruct least attempt to deconstruct through interviewing world class performers, their habits, routines, lessons learned, et cetera. And my guest today is none other than Lisa Ling. Who is Lisa Ling?

Award winning journalist Lisa Ling is the host and executive producer of the CNN original series This Is Life with Lisa Ling, which is currently in its sixth season. And you can find that. least this season premiering on September twenty ninth. That is a Sunday at ten PM. Eastern and Pacific. This is life. In each episode, Ling immerses herself in communities across America, giving viewers an inside look at some of the most unconventional segments of society. In twenty seventeen, the series won a Gracie Award.

which explores the taboos around sex in America, and this is Birth with Lisa Lang, which explores how healthcare legislation, income equality, and cultural shifts shape how people have children in America. She has a very illustrious career. We're gonna talk about it in the course of our conversation. Uh, but suffice to say, from the Oprah Womfree show to Nightline to National Geographic Explorer. She's reported from dozens of countries covering stories about all manner of things, including many topics that are neglected or ignored in mainstream media. Gang rape in the Congo, bride burning in India, and the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda. Just as a few examples and uh we talk about the sort of emotional toll that that can take and many of the complexities of covering some of these extremely difficult topics. Lyn got her start in journalism as a correspondent for Channel One News, where she covered the civil war in Afghanistan at twenty-one years of age, another experience we will talk about. She later went on to become a co-host of ABC's daytime hit show, The View, which won its first daytime Emmy during her time at the show.

She also served as a special correspondent for CNN's Planet in Peril series and is a contributing editor for USA Today's USA Weekend magazine. 2011, her acclaimed documentary journalism series, Our America with Lisa Ling, began airing on Own. She's also an author. She has co-authored mother daughter sister bride, rituals of womanhood, and somewhere inside, one sister's captivity in North America and the other's fight to bring her home, which she penned with her sister, Laura. In twenty fourteen, President Obama named Ling to the commission on White House fellows. You can find her On Twitter at Lisa Ling on Facebook. Facebook dot com slash Ling And without further ado.

Please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Lisa Ling. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Lisa, welcome to the show. Thank you so much.

And uh this has been in the works for a while, so I'm very pleased to finally be having this conversation. And We have a lot to cover or certainly many questions that I would love to ask. So I'll start with H twenty one, Afghanistan. Was that your first time? In Afghanistan?

That definitely was. Uh yeah, I was twenty one and and uh and never in my wildest dreams did I ever think that I would go to a place like Afghanistan at that age or ever. Um, but it was certainly as you can probably imagine one of the most eye opening things that I've ever experienced to this day. And did you at say the end of high school

Type of correspondent work is what you would be doing, or did you have other thoughts in your mind for what you were going to be Post graduation. You know, when I was a kid, uh, we didn't grow up with a lot of money. And I I've always been an insatiably curious person, e even as a young a a young, you know, kid.

Um, but I I I really didn't have the opportunity to travel that much. And so When I was eighteen, I was hired to report for a show called Channel One News, which was a show that was seen in schools across the country. In fact, Anderson Cooper uh was one of my colleagues. Uh, and they sent us off into the world to cover far flung stories in distant locations. And one day there was talk amongst some of the executives about sending a correspondent to cover the civil war in a country that at the time I couldn't even identify on a map. and it was Afghanistan. And I agreed to go because we'd be going in with the Red Cross. And so the likelihood of something happening while with the Red Cross would be far less than had I not gone in with them. Uh so I agreed and From the moment I set foot.

in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, I just You know, realized I was Very, very, very far from home. What was th say the first Forty eight or seventy two hours of that experience.

like for you. uh developed to some extent, but a a at that early kind of nascent point in your professional life What what were the first few days there like for you? Well um

I had never I'd barely traveled. by the time I was twenty one. And so as cliche as this sounds, I I felt like I was Yeah. Um Afganistan at the time had

I mean it was really like a country that had been um just completely destroyed. It was in in in rubble, really. Um there were bules and and and craters Everywhere er not a single wall stood that that that wasn't riddled with bullet holes because when I was there in the early nineties, it was in the midst of a civil war. But before that, for about a decade. It was the scene of a war between Afghanistan. And the Soviet Union, during which time my country, the United States, pumped

billions of dollars worth of weaponry into the hands of the Afghans to fight our then enemy, the Soviet Union. And so here I was You know, in a place. that my country had a major, major role in. It had a role in everything that I was seeing around me. Uh so many of the young boys that I was looking at were carrying American made weapons'cause they were paid for by the United States.

But yet I knew that back home. Uh no one had any clue this scene existed in the world. So it was just It was just surreal. I mean I kept closing my eyes and opening my eyes and just going

Where the fuck am I and how did I end up here? I mean, honestly. I because it was just You know, the furthest place on earth that I could have ever imagined. You have since Covered so many different

Topics, subcultures, problems, and more. I mean the Venn diagram if I were to try to draw it out would be really remarkable. And the question that has come to my mind so many times, and uh th this is true also after spending time with people like Sebastian Younger, for instance, How have you handled after covering, say, gang rape in the Congo, bride burning in India, and so on. the emotional toll of some of these

subjects. Uh I mean are there any stories that you can share about contending with that because I would have to imagine that it hasn't all P Easy. To digest.

Yeah, I mean I definitely have been witness to some of the worst aspects of humanity. I mean covering a story uh about gang rape in the Congo. Um what you mentioned covering stories about bridburning in India um stories about child trafficking um and and just Um, just really devastating and horrifying.

um aspects of humanity. Uh and and I I don't always handle it well. You know, I I am lucky that I'm not out there on my own. covering these kinds of stories. I'm always with a team and When we are out in the field, we are truly living the story.

We ev you know every second of the day is consumed by the story and I meet people and people share with me. On so many occasions, things that they haven't even shared with their closest friends or family members. And so as a result, you can't help but build a bond and develop a relationship with these people. And I try to give everyone that I meet my cellphone or that I that I profile my cell phone because again, like they've just shared you know, the depths of their heart with me, I would be remiss if I were to just say, Okay, thanks for sharing. Bye. You know, like I

We we just shared something really powerful. Um, and so staying in touch with people has really helped me. I mean, I've gotten You know, I fairly decent at compartmentalizing, like, you know My my work is my work and I'm deeply, deeply passionate about it.

Um But it sort of exists for me. in one part of my heart and my brain and then my family and my life are Another part. Do they Uh do they did are uh do they ever get fused absolutely all the time and

Yeah, my my husband, my family, they know that sometimes I just need some space to just decompress and process. But what keeps me going, honestly, is just knowing That bringing A lot of these stories to light. Will raise consciousness. um among you know ordinary people who may feel compelled to do something about it or just become more aware

of these issues on their own. So I have uh I've a f a few follow up questions. The the first is Do you have any stories of becoming enmeshed with Some of these

subjects and people who have suffered when you provide, say, your cell phone, which is a very human and humane thing to do simultaneously, it opens up the door to I would imagine all sorts of potential Complexity. Oh yeah. I mean I've I've gotten calls from drug addicts at at

Okay. you know, all hours of the night. Um I've gotten calls from prison, many, many calls from prison. Um and and and there is a a a risk. There was an inmate

uh that and this wasn't this wasn't someone I gave my my cell phone number to. Um, but we ha you know we had this really personal exchange while I was interviewing him. And I mean it was really like he really revealed so much about his life and what propelled him to

you know, become the man that he became and and do what he did. And so he started writing to me and I would write back to him. And after a while, you know, I just You know, life Life took over and it became increasingly more difficult to keep up. uh you know our our our

our pen pal relationship, right? And so One day I get a letter in the mail and he's threatening me with violence because I stopped Or I I hadn't written to him in a long time. And that was certainly a moment. I mean, and it wasn't just it wasn't just like I'm gonna kill you. It was like a really, really terrifying thing that he said. And I all I I thought about reporting it.

Um But I didn't. And subsequently, a couple of months later, he wrote me another letter apologizing profusely. But it was one of those moments where I thought you know, maybe this wasn't such a good idea to maintain this relationship.

I mean that was You know, the only it that was the only time something like that happened. For the most part, um I get asked for money from time to time, particularly from people who are abusing drugs. Um, or I get asked to help. in uh you know uh in different ways and I try to do what I can and I tell people that I I will do what I can, but I also make it clear that, you know, I can only do so much.

That sounds very difficult. I mean what would uh what do you say to say a d a drug addict who's asking for money who perhaps you've helped, which might in its own Way set. A Wha what do you say to someone who's asking for something

like that that you can't continue to provide. Well look, Tim, I mean I've I've bought a lot of bus tickets for people And Uh I I I am though very open now. And I and I I I

I did learn the hard way because Um, you know, one of the guys that I was buying bus tickets for, I found out later on that he was continuing to use. And so now I will say to people, look, I just to just to make things clear. I'm not gonna give you money. I'm never gonna give you money because I don't know really what you're going to do with it. But if I can help you in any way, if I can direct you

to Resources Um I will I will do everything I can to try to do so. And I and I really do. I mean, again, I I do take responsibility For these relationships, and they're important to me, and they're personal.

For me and I really do care about these people because of this thing that they shared with me and that we shared together. But I do have to be very careful because

uh when when when when it comes to money Um, I realize especially when someone is under the influence that I can be very easily taken advantage of. Yeah. It's uh it's a balancing actor, it's it would seem to be. And I I remember at one point Uh befriending this Um

homeless man in San Francisco where I used to live. And at one point paid him to give me a tour of the sort of homeless economy and the homeless underground in San Francisco. And he was entirely coherent. I it was actually a a fascinating and really eye opening experience and and I mean the homeless situation in San Francisco is absolutely terrible for many reasons. And

later, not that much later, something like seventy two hours later, he had my cell phone and had a complete psychotic break and was just making no sense. uh whatsoever. And it was really Gut wrenching uh because he seemed to go from periods of lucidity to complete detachment from reality, and I was very unsure of how to even approach helping someone like this, uh, which may be beyond the scope of

uh our conversation but it you know it puts in perspective for me always the work that social workers do. I mean you know, they are on the front lines of all of this stuff, right? And they they also, in many cases, you know, become deeply Um entwined with with people and

You know, I think the difference between people like you and me is while we may establish relationships, we don't really know how to deal with you know, people who are in the throes of a of addiction or who are mentally ill, you know? Um and it's y as much as you want to try and help people, there are there certainly are risks that need to be taken seriously as well. S let's let's talk about personal risks and you you mentioned decompressing and processing earlier. Could you speak to Perhaps

a particularly challenging experience. have to be related to the television work, but it certainly could be. And How you Processed and

metabolized something that was very difficult. Uh because it it it seems like uh there have to be instances where as much as you can compartmentalize you can't unsee things or unhear things. That

come into your perceptive field and How do you metabolize the say some of the more difficult experiences? Years ago I interviewed a seventeen year old girl named Ashley who was sold into Um the world of sexual

commercial sexual exploitation when she was like eleven years old. Um she was basically Um sold by a cousin. uh to to to be a prostitute And I I remember you know, we were we were

I had an all male team. And I asked them all to sit outside so that she and I could have a more candid conversation. We were we were in a bedroom. So the only man in the room was our cameraman and the two of us and as she was Recounting

Her story I remember her telling me about how at eleven years old. She would on a regular basis call the police. And Beg them. To arrest her.

Um so that she could have a safe place to sleep. And Tim, it was just like it was so gun gut wrenching the way she was telling the story. And from outside of the room I could hear my male colleagues going.

Like starting to cry and then I just totally lost it. And she ended up having to console me because I had just been so overwhelmed with grief, and after that. Interview. Um

my team and I, we just kinda like huddled together and just We we all cried together again, like this is five men and me. And we just We we just had to let it out. It was it was just so devastating and You know, I mentioned earlier that having these teams who are are with you along the way has really been my salvation.

Because If I were alone doing this, I I I don't know that I would have been able to survive all these years because it is so emotionally Um uh taxing.

But But having these people you know by my side. And and really my team consists of the most sensitive um incredible people, men and women, um has been what has has has gotten me through all of it. And that hopefully I've been able to help them get through it as well. But it just makes you realize like how

how much people are hurting out there, how how deep and dark people's worlds are. Um, which by the way, is is why I'm so excited about all the work that you're doing in in in in psychedelic research, because I think that it's just Um to to ignore this possible pathway to recovery um from from trauma and grief would be just a a colossal mistake given how much people are hurting. Thank you. Yeah, there's a there's a a tremendous amount of pain out there and it's Part of the reason that I'm I'm also So

respectful and Uh encouraging of the incredible work that you do is that you're sharing stories that uh at the very least Help.

A a a not so small subset of the population to know that they are not alone in the type of suffering that either they've experienced or that they have felt because loved ones. Have suffered. And

Th I think that's a that's a very, very important ingredient. in the in any recipe that will begin to resolve or mitigate some of these uh whether it's atrocities or just s simply conditions that are debilitating. Yeah, and and to be honest with you, what I really hope that people will do when they when they watch my work, m any of my shows, is just to feel something.

Um You know, I think we have become this culture that doesn't want to feel, and it's really easy for doctors when we're going through things that are hard to say, Well, here's a pill to take. You know, let l take take some edge off. Let me let me give you something. And for me, the one one of the main reasons why I I love what I do so much. Is because I

I like to feel whether it's it's it's it's feeling you know, heart sick or feeling glee, like recognizing What it's like to feel. Um It it just makes me feel more alive. My senses are heightened.

And I I feel grateful that I'm able to have this kind of experience irrespective of the feelings that are generated. And unfortunately, we just we're we're afraid of feeling and I think that it's it's becoming increasingly dangerous. And so you know, I hope that people when they come and and see my work they they will be prepared and ready to feel

Um But I also hope that they will come with an open mind because we will often Profile. or immerse ourselves among people that you would otherwise never get a chance to get to know or you might not want to get to know. Um, but hopefully

we will give you an opportunity to know people who are different from you and and and develop a better understanding of our fellow humans. It's fantastic. Objective. And I think also it's important to note that Yeah. Most of the

important conversations that need to be had are not going to be comfortable. Right. And uh uh I'd like to ask a Follow up. related to feeling.

And in in the process of doing research for this conversation, I read and feel free to fact check this,'cause can't believe everything we read on the internet, but uh I had read that Your family was not particularly communicative. uh as it related to sex or dating or emotions. And specifically um I'm interested in that last part because many people listening Uh even perhaps someone talking like me. Um comes from a family where there were certain things that were off limits, or there were certain things that just weren't discussed, and perhaps feelings and emotions were were

in that category. If if that was true. When you're growing up. How did you train yourself? to

Feel. Or to discuss emotions. More openly. It's a great question. Um I come from a a a pretty traditional Asian family, and most people

Uh probably have a a a pretty decent sense that Asian culture is is just not the most communicative. And On top of that, my parents got divorced when I was seven years old and

Um I grew up mostly with my dad and who worked all the time, and so I always felt very conflicted about my my my identity. You know, I I didn't like being Asian because I was in a community that was totally non diverse. Um I didn't I I I felt a lot of um resentment toward my parents because they weren't active in the way that my friends' families were. And so in my late teens, early twenties, I I decided that I needed to get help because I just

I I had all this stuff kind of percolating in my in my in my body, right? In my in my soul, in my heart, but I couldn't identify exactly what I was feeling. I didn't really even know what feelings were. And so I started w working really hard with a a therapist and just talking and that therapist started asking me about My relationship with my mom and my dad, and and I to to tell you the truth, I didn't know anything about my parents. backstory because we didn't talk about it.

And so when I took the initiative to try and learn about my mom in particular because we didn't have much of a relationship. When I was a kid. Um, I just Um

just became astounded by her backstory. I ended up taking her to Taiwan Um back to where she grew up. And it was a really painful experience because she did not have a a a good childhood. I mean it was very, very dark the things that that she experienced. But it allowed me to know her and all of that resentment that I felt for her.

Just disappeared. Because it was almost like I was looking at this little girl and what she had to deal with. As a little girl and it made my issues just seem so trivial, even though they weren't, but they compared to what she went through And I think that really propelled me to want to understand.

people better because at the end of the day, Tim You know, we all are human beings, right? We were all born of of parents who who who loved us. We were all born of a mother at one time, right? And And we're learning so much about About when kids experience any kind of trauma between the ages of one and seventeen, when their brains are um developing the fastest.

Well, if you don't address that trauma, if you don't deal with it. Then it can go on to haunt you for the rest of your life and and emerge in ways and get triggered in ways that that you might never expect. And For me, I just um After that experience I started to really try and dig deep and It made me a better a better person. It made me a better reporter.

Um, it made me I mean, I've always been a curious person, but I I think it really kind of ignited This this This kind of this empathy thing. Um, because I just

I start thinking about everyone. as like a little boy, you know, and I and in so many cases when I interview people, I asked them to go back to when they were seven or eight years old and and I asked them how they would feel. If they could see their eight year old self could see them right now and what they would say to them. And the truth is that we all You know, we all experience something as a child that really

Has continued to live with us and in some cases haunt us or debilitate us. But until we take Take steps to address it. um it could continue on. And so for me doing this kind of work. That's always something that

Yeah, I kind of keep in the back of my mind, like really trying to understand, like how this person You know. got to this place, how this person became the way he or she became.

Thank you for sharing that. This is this is really important and at least I think it's important. And I'd love to I'd love to dig into getting to know your mom. Did you sit down Whether over the phone or in person, and effectively interview your mom about Her backstory? Uh or Uh what w or was it more intuited traveling together? How how did you unravel that story? I would imagine it would be very

uncomfortable if you didn't have a relationship beforehand or much of one. Very much so. You know, I started to just ask her some questions. And I could see that Some of the questions I asked her. Like I just see her her body change.

You know, like a simple question like How would you describe your childhood or Were you happy as a kid and You know, when you were seven years old, like what did you what did you want to be? Um

You know, what was your what was your Day to day like when you were an eight nine year old child and When she would go back to that period, Tim, it was really like I'll never forget. How she went from

You know, this adult, you know, my mother who was supposed to be the protector of me became this little girl. And it was really hard for her to even answer those kind of simple questions like what was your childhood like? And it propelled me to you know, want to know more. And so I you know, I wasn't I didn't have a lot of money at the time, but I knew that this was going to be such a a a a necessary investment for me

Um and and and for my mom too, because it was obvious That She had never talked about a lot of this stuff. And

So we took this trip to Taiwan and the a a lot of it was really painful. Um, a lot of it was amazing because it was just the two of us. having this journey and And we kinda shared Intimate moments that we'd never shared before as mother and daughter.

And You know, to people out there listening, if you if you've never taken the time to Really? understand Your parents lives

I would I would really urge people to do so because it's really It will it will bring people so much more clarity. Um as to like who their parents really are and and and why they have made the decisions that they've made. I I really want to underscore how much I agree with that and have seen

the type of conversation you're describing, which can be very uncomfortable. Uh completely change how my adult friends operate in the world and relate to their And their family meaning not just their family Parents but their family, spouse, kids.

etc because Perhaps on some level And if you have unresolved resentment Not to say that this conversation will resolve it all, but if you have some degree of resentment towards your parents, uh your childhood and your ability to parent and so many other things that may be sort of

below the liminal layer of awareness. Uh, it's it's really remarkable. And I've had some very open conversations with my parents in the last few years that if you had asked me ten years ago if I would ever even contemplate having these conversations, I would have brushed it aside as completely Impossible. Right? Yeah. And and it's it's it's given me a uh a level of

relief. That's I couldn't have predicted. Beforehand. Well, I think it's particularly

critical for men. to do this because I I do feel like right now There are a lot of young men and men who are feeling Feeling crisis right now.

You know, the You know, whether it's the job market or um you know, the Me Too movement or whatever. I you know, I I I you know, the suicide rate, for example, is is is skyrocketing among

Men. And I think that For so long men have been told To not T to not show emotion.

And I think that Um Igniting that process of getting to know your parents or your your you know, your father for for young men. I think it's just a really important thing for for people to really do because

Um Young men really need permission. to be able to feel and to as so many men feel in crisis right now'cause they've never been given that permission to to feel. Definitely. And Uh I would say also that

Uh if if Anyone listening is is perhaps saying to themselves as I did for a long time. Well, I just don't wanna deal with it. Right. I don't wanna Open.

Wa what I would say, at least in my experience is You're gonna deal with it. no matter what. The question is, are you going to deal with it in a Uh Consciousness

Productive. way where you face it head on, or are you gonna compress it into a box and allow it to seep out the edges in strange ways where it manifests as you getting easily pissed off, or yelling at your kid, or whatever it might be, because one way or another you are dealing with it and My experience has been It's really s trying to figure out

what your coping mechanisms are and if they're maladaptive. causing you further harm or adaptive in some positive way. And The the The question of of therapy is is one I'd I'd like to return to. How did you find your therapist? Oh that's a tough question because I don't even remember. I I And I suppose the the the the tack I'm taking is h how might you suggest

people find a therapist if they've never even entertained the thought before. Right. But so it can be self referential or it could be just a broader discussion of therapy. Yeah, well, unfortunately in our culture. Um, you know, our healthcare system is not conducive for people to find therapists or even have insurance cover. therapy, which I think is So

It's it's so ass backwards in every possible way. And and that's why so many Doctors are just prescribing you know, pharmaceutical drugs to you know, for people to to to to to band aid or put a band aid on their pain. Um, and so what I would say to people is

You know, check with your insurance plan to see if It's covered. somehow or if a a part of it is covered. And I think people are hesitant To

spend money because it's It's not cheap. you know, therapy is expensive. But I I have to say that investing in therapy if if you if your insurance is prohibitive Um

You know, and and and you can find therapists that are are It might be less expensive than others. Um It it's such a Such an important investment.

Um Because you're investing in your future, you're investing in your mental health. And You know, I I and there's things that just shouldn't be those are things that should not be

ignored. Now if you absolutely can't Afford therapy. Um You know, if you have a group of friends Um and particularly for men, again, like men aren't

They're not conditioned, they weren't raised to be communicative and emotional with with other men, but If you can get a group together. regularly, once a month, if you once every two months to just like talk and let down the guard, you know, convey that it's a it's a comp Completely private.

You know conversation. No one outside of the room should know what what it said, but You know, people need that outlet to be able to just release. You know, whether whether your friends offer you constructive You know, advice or criticism. is almost irrelevant you just need to have

A release um in a safe space to be able to just kind of express Your feelings. Um, it's so healthy to to do that. And and I I'm so emphatic about trying to convey that message because right now We're all humanity із совсем.

That We're not connecting with people. It you know, it's ironic. We're so connected with the world. You know, we can find out any score to any game at the tip of our fingertips. But we're more isolated and lonely than ever because we're defaulting to these devices. Um and not communicating enough with

human beings. I mean, you know, remember when we were kids and we would call You know, w when I would call that boy that I had a crush on, those feelings that it would evoke, my God, I would get so nervous and like you know, I would like start breathing heavily, and it would take like an hour for me to get up the nerve to make that call. Like those are those are those are really important feelings to experience. And we've just like totally done away with all of that. Because We're now existing in just like swipe culture.

Right. And we we we we don't even have those opportunities. We don't allow ourselves those opportunities to even feel anymore. And I think that. That is you know, it's really dangerous because if you don't have those outlets and you just default to those devices, you can find those dark communities and dig yourself even deeper into a hole. Um, and So the extent that you can seek out human contact, put the phones away, and just like sit in a room together without phones. See if you can even do that. Smile at each other, you know, like

Just have some human contact. Yeah, agreed. And I'll what I'll do also is Take a number of therapy services. And uh for those people who might be more constrained financially, some apps as well that are related to therapy, and I'll put them in the show notes. So for people listening, you can go to Tim.blog forward slash podcast and just find this episode and I'll put those in the show notes for people.

You mentioned uh Earlier. the sort of male demographic. Uh increasing suicide rates as a trend line. Some of your

uh female influences. uh extraordinary women who have who've perhaps uh influenced you. You you've spent time with some Incredible people. Uh and I mean just to name a few, Oprah Oprah Winfrey, Barbara Walters.

Uh What have you what have you picked up, observed, or learned from some of these incredible women you've you've had the opportunity to spend time with. You know, it's funny because all my life as a young person, I always fancied having a life like Barbara Walters or Oprah Winfrey. And so when I got a chance to actually work with them and

you know, sit at a table with them and and and look to my right and see them. Um, it was just it it was surreal. Like I I was just I I had like outer body experiences whenever I'd look to my left and I'd see, you know, look into the eyes of Oprah Oprah Winfrey. And I remember I was always a really ambitious young person and I and I I've always been kind of a sponge that likes to absorb as much wisdom as I can about how to be a better reporter or how to be more successful, right. And every time I interacted with Barbara Walters, the first thing that she would ever ask me is

You know, are you taking care of your personal life? Are you neglecting your personal life? Are you taking time for your personal life? And I remember I was young when I started working on the view. I was in my mid twenties. I would always think to myself, like I want to talk about how you got the interview with Fidel Castro or Monica Lewinsky, or how did you do that, you know? But now in retrospect looking back I learned so much from these women.

About Because I look what Barbara was doing. was basically telling me that she did those things she neglected her personal life, you know, in pursuit of her career. And I could tell that there was a hole left.

in her and I remember when she was was retiring from from ABC Um she, you know, Barbara Walters has interviewed Everyone. But she said her biggest regret was not spending more time with her daughter. Um

And And I think back on that and it makes me really sad because I so idolized her and wanted a life and a career just like Barbara Walters. And the most important lesson That she taught me was to not neglect my

My personal life and and I and I will cherish that advice because I was someone who never wanted to have kids, I never had that biological desire. Um, I've been married for twelve years and six years into our marriage my husband said, Well, why don't we just try?

And I thought, uh, I don't really want to, but You know, if it's something really important to you, we can just we can try. And then I got pregnant pretty quickly. And then I had a miscarriage. And then I got crazy. Then I'm like, I wanna have a kid You know, because I'm that type A, you know, like how I How do I win at pregnancy? I look at myself as a failure and I had to overcome that. I mean it was really t sick and twisted. Um But now I look at my children, I have a six and a three year old, and even though they drive me crazy. And at forty six years old, I think to myself, like, what am I thinking with a three year old?

But um I just I'm so grateful to people like Barbara for telling me to not you know, neglect my personal life because they are just their everything to me. And everything that I do. now in my my work and in my life is to try and make this a better place for for them and to try and

Um bring people together and ignite dialogue, especially in this period of just Ugliness and hostility Um, because I've always just believed that the more we know about each other, the more we will respect each other, and the better we become ultimately. So what I

I want to And uh then we'll we'll segue to some other spots. Um Including the sort of the the hustle.

of of Lisa Ling. But we'll get to that in due time. Before that Uh I W as you were telling me this story about Uh.

Barbara and her advice to you. it it made me think of a story that I heard from the writer Neil Gaiman and when he was exploding in popularity due to The the sandman.

Stephen King told him at one point. Enjoy it. 'Cause he had these long lines of people waiting. for signatures and so on. And Neil would admit that at the time he was not able to take that advice. He did not savor it. It was very stressful.

Is there a Uh well, A were you able to take Barbara's advice at the time that you heard it? Or did it take a while to like course correct and take that into account? And then is there any other advice you've received that you were able to take but later realized was very important.

At the time when Barbara you know kept Asking me those questions and almost like reprimanding me for'cause she could tell that I was just so ambitious that I I was not really. Devoting time to my personal life. Um I I didn't I didn't take it seriously.

Um but now I just every time I I look at my kids, you know, I'm just so grateful that I was able to have them. I mean, I I had a number of miscarriages after the first one. Um and I d definitely go went through periods where I n I I I I thought that I might not be able to have kids. Um But I I'm so I'm so grateful that I have them because they They not only are

you know, my life. I mean everybody loves their kids and everybody considers their kids their life, but they really have made me want to Um Do the right thing for them, you know, and leave this place. better for them and to do everything that I can to

You know, like I it sounds so cliche, Tim, but like make the world a better place for them. And and so You know, as we are kind of Again, like in this period of just Hostility and ugliness and darkness and our

Yeah, the people that we are supposed to look up to. our you know our politicians our business leaders In so many cases are so morally bankrupt. it makes me more defiant than ever to want to Um

Ignite dialogue and to give people a way to get to know their fellow humans better. Um, I just You know, I I I I don't feel like

what I do is a job. I don't really think about it as a job. I just think it's something that I'm supposed to be doing right now. And and to do it well. is hard, uh as as is the case with so many things. And I'd like to talk about

Access and be able to cover some of the groups and stories that you've been able to cover or bring a voice to. Yeah. Uh

So again, this is quoting from the internet, so who knows, but uh this is a quote that I have in my research. I fancy myself as a bit of a hustler, I'm a very persistent person. I can be aggressive in my own way. You have to be constantly you have to constantly be pushing to get the stories that you want told told. So you can you can tell me if that sounds roughly like something you would say. And assuming assuming that it is more or less Accurate. Uh

What are the keys? Two Getting the type of Unprecedented access. Two groups that you've had.

So much success with. Well Yes, I I I certainly have been aggressive throughout my life and my career about trying to get access. But

Um In recent years since we've had the show This Is Life on CNN on the air for the last six seasons, six plus now. I think that people have gotten a good sense of our show and a good sense of me. And

It I I I think if you if you're a regular viewer of our show, you see that I am not a sensational or exploitative person. Um I I like to think of myself as you know the vehicle through which people can experience other cultures or or or communities that are different from theirs.

And over time, I think that people have Have started to recognize that if they are going to share their story on A show Ours would probably be a good one to do it because

We do give people an opportunity to tell their stories. I mean at the end of the day. Irrespective of what you may have been accused of or or or or how you may live your life. We are going to give you a chance to tell your story. I might ask you some tough questions, but ultimately this show that we do is really about um giving people a chance to

Um to share. And and I try really, really hard to be as nonjudgmental a listener as I can. Yeah. And

As far as Catalyzing conversation. uh getting people to think differently or take action of some type. Do you have any Success stories that come to mind for you. that have made their way

over the transom somehow after people have seen the work that you've that you've done, these various interviews and and uh programs that you've put out into the world? Well Oprah was certainly uh when I was a r a correspondent for her show. I mean it was pretty remarkable

What she was able to do uh when I reported in the Democratic Republic of the Congo uh a story about gang rape and Just it the these women having to endure the most unfathomable horrors. Um I think in in Two airings of that segment.

Over three million dollars was raised for the organization. that uh helped me do the story that was providing aid to these women. And that just that really showed me the power of Oprah. I mean it was it was unbelievable. I don't know that there will Ever be

that kind of force for good um as Oprah. And and I really I really miss her on television because Um She really I think uh elevated humanity and and brought

things to light that otherwise like no television outlet or media outlet would touch. Um for me our shows are You know, less shows about um you know activism.

Our shows really are an exploration of different worlds or subcultures or different different issues, and just, you know, people coming up to me That Um You know.

that that black Muslims uh you know w are are were s had such a big presence in in this country and that the women actually feel very liberated Um by being able to wear a hijab because they don't feel the pressure of uh having to show their bodies or using their their their their bodies um to influence anything. You know, I mean I think just just people expressing their enlightenment.

their enlightenment or their Um Just that they they they learned something from something that I've done like that is really satisfying and fulfilling for me.

I think it's a real service because you're offering people the opportunity to stress test A lot of their assumptions. And to sort of broaden their picture of reality to accommodate first hand reports from people that might conflict with whatever stories they've kind of fabricated or inferred from

sensational news headlines and so on, right? So it's Yeah, I mean a couple of seasons ago we did something um about gender fluidity and we profiled a man named Steve who was starting to dress in women's clothing and and and Steve told me that he'd he'd always wanted to, like he always felt this connection with his feminine side, but You know, because we live in a culture that has never welcomed it. In fact, to the contrary, was really, you know, um You know he felt like he had to suppress that feminine side he never he never

Um you know, would wear women's clothing out like he He always felt like he he was more gender fluid. Than not. And So

So I was w in a room with him uh as he was putting makeup on, putting earrings on, he he put a dress on, and I literally said to him, Steve, I have to be honest with you, if I saw you Walking down the street randomly I would probably look at you like, Oh my God. Like w w what what is going on? Like that guy is a freak. Like I

Ma I I might Like just be predisposed to have that feeling. But having spent time with him Getting to know his story. Um

You know, just like getting inside his head. Allowed me to see him. So differently that that whole You know, the exterior, the dress, the makeup. It was it was almost like That was what he was supposed to be wearing. I I I s I saw him no differently in lipstick and earnings than I did

an hour before when he was just talking to me as Steve in a T shirt and jeans. And it just goes it's just like such a testament to this idea of listening people and hearing people out. I'm as guilty as the next person of just following The people on Twitter who espouse the same beliefs as I do. You know, it's so easy. I watch the media that espouses what I what I believe.

And It's it's it's easier than ever to exist in these silos. And so what I'm trying really hard to do in life, but also in my show, is break out of those bubbles and and really hear people out and Understand. how other people live'cause that's the only way that we're going to be able to

um you know come to an understanding politically or socially Like we can't I can't see us existing this way. Forever. It's just like it's too volatile. Yeah, it absolutely is. And Yeah, the more that we can at least be exposed to samples of

Profiles. like you're providing where we can see these sort of inherent Uh Complexity may not be the right word, but I'll I'll use it for lack of a better stand in sort of the complexity of each human as this tapestry of emotions and feelings. Uh the uh

the harder it is to to paint with a broad brush and hate someone Because you view them as one issue. Right. You you view them as a walking opinion that you disagree with But when you start to

Flesh that out as a portrait. You Realize that the vast majority of that person is Shared.

It's a shared experience that you also have. Absolutely, Tim. I mean, you know, when we worked on a piece about the MS thirteen gang you know the the the gang that present trump has you know called animals right and and yes They have

uh as an organization committed on Speakable atrocities and and And you know, have committed the most violent acts imaginable. But if you know and and this is not

Any way to condone that savagery. But when you Take the time to understand The kinds of things that these people were exposed to in their home countries or the pressure

they may have been under to do what they did. It doesn't make you Or doesn't make me, I should speak for myself. Feel sorry for them. It doesn't make me condone. uh what they've done. It doesn't make what they've done right in any way.

But it gives me the ability and the opportunity to try and figure out How to prevent the next Young person who may be exposed to the same things. from going down that road. Unless we can identify

Like where that behavior comes from and what those people were exposed to. It's it's it's not going to make it any better just to call them animals and try and hunt them down. You know, you have to you have to attack it at It's its root.

If you're ever going to be able to make real progress. Yeah, definitely. Um looking at Causes and not just symptoms. Uh and it's it's very easy to

Discard. Or Kind of brush away. Yeah, it's easy to just it's Yeah, it's just easy to characterize a group of people as savages.

Who need to be punished at all at all costs. Yeah. It uh sort of absolves you of the responsibility of thinking. Which

Doesn't ultimately solve anything. Lisa, what is Uh. Next, I believe that you have now season six, is that right? Lisa Like what what is season six have in store? What are s what are some of the topics that you'll be exploring and also where can people find it?

So our show, This Is Life, is on CNN. It premieres on September twenty ninth, a Sunday, and we'll air on CNN every Sunday thereafter. Our first episode is called Porn X, because so many young people are getting their sex ed from pornography. You know, porn has always always been around, but now the ease of access. Any kid with a device or access to a vice, a device can access unlimited amounts of porn and it's having a devastating impact on

on entire generation and the way they Perceived sex and relationships. We're also doing a piece about benzodiazepine. So we're talking about Valium, Atavan, Xanax, Clonopin. Um, these are medications that are used for anxiety. If you're not on them, you probably know people who are. and they are medicines that should be used for very short periods of time. But um there's a whole generation of people who've been on them for years.

And it's a highly, highly addictive drug, and there is a fear that benzos are the next opioids. Um, we also explore women in the marines. They've been the last branch of the military to Allow women to to uh participate in combat and we embedded with the Marines at Camp Pendleton. Um we're doing a an episode about swingers because

swingers um aren't what you think they are. They've now evolved into Like an entire lifestyle that just welcomes free sex. Um, and we also have an episode about uh this gang in Mississippi. It's the fastest growing uh gang in Mississippi. It's a white gang, although they're not a racist gang. But we understand why

Um we we we we attempt to understand why that gang is gr growing so fast in the state of Mississippi. Yeah. How do you choose your subjects? I mean you have the ability to canvas extremely Widely.

To pick groups and subjects. How did you end up deciding on on some of these? Well, it uh very randomly, actually. I mean I I'm a pretty voracious reader and consumer of information. And we will generally pick about twenty topics and present them to CNN and they will Approve eight

eight of them for us to pursue, but for me It's really about exploring worlds that are just different from me that I think people would find interesting. Um you know, the the porn ed episode and the benzos episode to me There are two issues I think people need to know about.

you know, as far as the pornography um episode is concerned, like parents need to wake up and and acknowledge the fact that the moment they give their kids a device They have unfettered access to Um, you know, extreme kinds of pornography. even if they have really rigid filters on their devices. I mean you're basically giving your kids a supercomputer to have on their bodies. Um and so there's some issues that we take on that I just think People

need to know about. Yeah the porn is is tricky. I mean the parental controls I saw a tweet I won't mention his name just in case he wouldn't appreciate it, but he's a little bit more than I put up a tweet recently which said, you know, my wife set up parental controls, for t forgot the password, needed my son to figure it out. Now she has to ask him for the password to log into the parental controls to watch television. And it's uh it's a it's a To very challenging, I would imagine, situation where you have digital natives who by almost every measure

are more savvy with technology than the parents who are trying to implement controls. Very very challenging. Well, you know, we in our episode we feat a an adult film actress who's on a mission to Tell porn consumers that

It's fantasy and that What you don't see is that before cameras even started rolling, they negotiated what they will and will not do, and they had a conversation about consent. You know, what what what kids can access mean you you you don't see people talking about consent you know, or negotiations or women exerting any kind of power at all. Um we also

spend time with a a woman who created this website called Make Love Not Porn, where she shows real people having real world sex, which means like they're not perfect body types. There may be mistakes. There may be You know, it may get messy, but She thinks that Um we need to start seeing what Вот ріл секс

really looks like and not You know, this artificial porn that is is heavily produced. Um and and plays on in most cases your your wildest fantasies because it's just not real and it's it's damaging kids' minds. What was the uh hardest episode and you can interpret that however you like. Hard could take

many different forms. But w what was the hardest episode on some level for you to Get done. This this season. Well the the Benzos episode

made me the most pissed. Because Um I I started to realize that This class of medication is one of the most widely prescribed on earth. Yet

Doctors in many cases if they are starting to exhibit symptoms of withdrawal. Um I talked to a a very high ranking psychiatrist at Stanford, in the Stanford Medical School, and I asked her, When you were in medical school, did you learn how to deal with benzo withdrawal or did you learn how to get people off of these medications? She said no, this is a psychiatrist.

At Stanford. And now you have general practitioners, you have internists, you have pediatricians. проскрабінь місь друг for an indefinite period of time. It's just

It's it it m has made me infuriated because doctors are the people that we we we we we entrust with the our safety with our our lives And they In many cases don't

don't realize how to treat the symptoms of these drugs. Yeah. It's it's such an important point that uh you know, before you start taking any medication and unfortunately this is incumbent upon the consumer, which is very unfair, but nonetheless. caveat emptor to figure out what the termination clause looks like in the sense that uh having a having a clear understanding uh of what the

Fizical dependents. can be if you take any drug, right? Which is Reason for instance, you know, I have uh my my girlfriend had a really bad injury some time ago, and we have an unused bottle of tremidol at home, and I was like, you know what, th I want to get rid of this right away because having it in the house is a liability. And uh a lot of these drugs are so powerful But because they're common.

the incredible potency uh in some cases for good therapeutic effect, but often for Devastating negative effects. are really underestimated. I mean my my best friend not too long ago Died of a fatal combination of fentanyl and alcohol because a friend of his said, Oh, you have a headache here, take this, gave him fentanyl.

And uh this this friend, uh meaning the guy who gave it to him, had developed a very high tolerance because he was an opiate user. My friend had never used opiates and fell asleep and didn't wake up. And these are Just because something is common does not mean that it is uh extremely dangerous if

misused or abused or simply used for a long period of time. So I I look forward to seeing that episode. Yeah, I mean I I really, really hope people tune into this because, you know, isn't it Isn't it curious that These medications are so widely prescribed, yet You know, our culture is more anxious than ever.

You know, like that's the the irony in all of this. Yeah. Yeah it is. I I I uh I remember speaking I was moderating a panel on psychedelic science uh Wh which you mentioned earlier.

at the Milken Global Conference and I asked two questions before starting and one of them Well, I'll tell you both questions. The first was Raise your hand if you know I guess more of a statement, Raise your hand if you know anyone who's taking antidepressants and is still depressed. Every hand in the room, like four hundred, five hundred went up. And then I asked them This is a pretty good muckity muck crowd, keep in mind, right? And then I asked him, do do y have you personally or do you know anyone

who has been affected by opiate addiction, raise your hand. And again every hand in the room. Four hundred, five hundred went up. Uh and it it just it it really begs the question, you know, are we treating Are we treating causes and do we have a system that allows for the treatment or the investigation of causes, or are we simply

masking the symptoms. Uh Uh Dis-ease. that uh that we really haven't taken the time

So Uh it isn't I'm very, very important subject. Well yeah, and that's again, that's why I laud you for really taking on you know, uh psychedelic therapy because I think that it could, you know, under the right

guidance right in conjunction with with with therapy I think it could be really revolutionary and allow people to kind of like open up those pathways that have been closed up for so long and I'm just honestly I am absolutely terrified. Um of a lot of these pharmaceutical drugs But

what terrifies me even more is that a lot of the doctors who are prescribing them Don't really know. like really, really know the consequences and how to help people get off of them if they find themselves. Um dependent on them.

Yeah. That's terrifying. Uh well I hope that the Broader awareness generated. By the episode we'll Well

Catalyze. some different thinking and maybe some different action by uh perhaps regulators or at at the very least physicians who are prescribing these medications. Yeah, I mean I I I I say in the episode, like the one thing that I've done because I've gotten medicine prescribed and I get the literature and I just I don't even open it.

But I n I realize now that it's incumbent on me if I'm going to put something in my body Um I need to look it over and if I have Any questions whatsoever I need to ask. Um we we we all need to be doing that. um more regularly. Uh you know, we have to take the initiative, even though I do believe

It's a doctor's responsibility to really know what he or she is prescribing. We also need to take responsibility and read through the literature when we get it. Yeah. Absolutely. I I wanna change direction for just uh just a a couple of minutes'cause I know we have limited time left and we're gonna come back to this as life, but you mentioned earlier that you're a voracious reader.

Are there any books in particular that you have gift often? to other people. In the past. Yeah.

The book that I have gift the most often it's you would not expect this of me. But it's it's called Genghis Khan and the making of the modern world. Fabulous book. Fabulous books. You've read it, isn't it amazing? It's incredible. The reason I love to do it.

Well, because I think that Um history has portrayes Khan as the ultimate raper and pillager of the universe. Um, but what people don't realize is that His Mongol army Um

I mі was he was one of the world's great democratizers. And That the only way the Mongol armi was able to um take control of most of the world in twenty five years. It took it took the Mongols twenty five years to conquer the amount of territory that it took the Romans to conquer in 250 years was that the Mongol army would go in, they would take out the aristocracy and give

the the the the the the lowest level citizen right the slaves in some cases an opportunity to rise up Within his army. Khaleesi's character on Game of Thrones, I heard was based on Genghis Khan. Um, and when you look at, you know, if you were to to look at his army, it would consist of people who, in some cases, had blonde hair and blue because he conquered so much of of Eastern Europe. Um but that's a story that I think also in this period of class divide. is really a moving one because he was this character who

you know, was a slave at one time himself, went on to conquer two thirds of the the population of the earth because he elevated You know people he elevated slaves. Um and the lowest level of human to rise up in his army. I'm really glad that you brought this book up. It's it it was it was recommended to me by I won't mention it by name, but one one of the best known CEOs in the world. And I thought it was kind of a strange recommendation at the time because I had the same

I had the same uh assumptions about Genghis Khan and then came to read this book and the story of the author himself is also fascinating because he went back and traced these historical paths. And what you really come to appreciate is A the magnitude of this empire that was built compared to, like you said, the Roman Empire is just one example. And and also how Surprising.

many of the realities are of this this army and the leadership style or the conquering style of Genghis Khan, in so much as The freedom of religion. That was Uh not just allowed, but encouraged. But the as as I vr I haven't read this book in a few years, but as I remember it, the the one caveat was you f you can continue to pray to all the gods that you want to pray to as long as you also pray for Genghis Khan.

Right, right, right. Which seemed very fair. So good. And like you would not Thanks. You know, when you hear the term democratizer. That's uh you know the the greatest among us, uh whoever lived

um with someone who has been reputed to be such a you know a villain in history. But that was all Contrived too, you know. His portrayal and the portrayal of the Mongol army was all contrived. So it's just so fascinating. Um to to read and and it's I've I cannot tell you how many people I've gifted that book to and just it just to just to also be clear, I mean he

His army was excellent at killing people. I mean there was that. Uh but Not the it was not as one sided A story of a roaming horde of sort of foaming at the mouth savages that many of the other portrayals would have you to believe is uh very sophisticated in uh in in a lot of respects. So I

I second that recommendation. Are are there any other books that you've Gifted or recommended to many people. I mean I I also love the alchemist. It's one of my favorite. Yeah, yeah. Um You know, just just following the journey of this shepher boy.

to far flung You know, corners of the earth. Um was just such a like a fantastical um, journey for me

Um, you know, though he realized that like You know. Yeah. That that that the most fascinating place was inside of him, you know, um, and the most thoughtful

important place was inside of him. Like I just um will always that book will will always um have a very special place in my in my heart. It's such a such a fast read, such an easy read, and uh I remember reading that when I was Wanna see it?

first traveling. I didn't travel much at all when I was younger and It did have a lasting impact, and the story behind that book also I I find very Uh Encouraging because and I might get the numbers wrong, but I believe that Paulo Quillio, the author, had an initial print run of something like five hundred copies, and then that first publisher gave up on the Alchemist, shelved it, and then he had to later republish it. And of course now it's sold a hundred million plus copies.

Wow, I didn't even know that story. Wow. Yeah, yeah, it was not. It's such a simple little book, but it's just so profound. Yeah. Um, and one more book, even though I haven't gifted it, um To a lot of people, but І із а кредит з бук. With

Um Propelling me. To dig deeper. And to not always You know, believe the narrative, and that book is A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn.

Mm. This is one I haven't read. So tell me tell me more. You you have to read this book because it will turn on its head. so much of what you have always believed to be true about this country, you know, it it goes into graphic detail, the savagery that took place um you know with with Columbus with Christopher Columbus on the native of native Americans, the native people who inhabited this land. I mean it just

Um it just forces you to rethink Everything that you've learned. And to think about it in another context and it's It is

It's a profound experience to to uh read this book and and think about it in in the context of history. I love it. And after you read it. Call me and let me know what you think. I mean it's incredible. I will. And I and I you know what I love about the two of the three examples that you gave.

Uh Much like the show, I suppose, so it shouldn't be surprising is that these are these are the are these are assumption and narrative Testing. Books. And

Yeah, I would I would say that Іффан Say for any given week. uh having the day to day experience of not having uncomfortable conversations or reading things that make you uncomfortable, not in a mudsling capacity, but In the sense of

deeply and legitimately stress testing beliefs or narratives that you have about yourself or the world or other people, then you're really not Uh, because so much of what we tell ourselves is just utter bullshit. It's complete. Complete nonsense. And as soon as you start to stress test it, it just falls apart. It's like the the the wizard behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. Uh so I'm I'm really glad that you uh mentioned these and I will pick up

Howard's book. And and and when you read that book. You will I mean everything that you just said Um it's after you read that book, you'll go, Okay, now I get why She responded to this book because your jaw will be dropped. And again, like everything that you learned in school, you will think differently about it.

um you'll you'll think about this other perspective and Um, I think it will change the way you view our institutions. I think it'll change The way you think about What it means to be an American. Um and and

you know, hopefully it will strike a chord with you and you will Like just feel more empathy. Um because of You know. uh like how this country was the like the way this country was founded.

Yeah. Empathy. Man, uh We could definitely use a heavy dose of more empathy. And and I think one of the ways that you develop empathy in part is by through allowing and even encouraging your own beliefs to be tested. uh developing more flexibility in how you perceive the world and other people.

Right? Absolutely. And uh because you know, the more labels you apply to other people and yourself, the dumber you become to borrow a a Paul Graham. And paraphrase a polygram expression. Uh and It's it's through I think this

that you develop a cognitive flexibility. That opens the door. to emotional development in terms of empathy. It's really Really.

Hey, it's easy to live in a bubble and to be told what to think and then and then spew what you've been told. That's that's easy, right? It's it's it's it's hard to try and you know, understand the truth or take the time. It requires time and energy to get invested in other people's stories. But I do in my heart of hearts believe that you emerge a a a better and smarter human as a result of of of taking that time it is in no way a waste No. No. And it's

It's it's It's deeply positive. It's also deeply practical, right? At least in in my experience and what I've observed. If you if you don't have any empathy, or you have very minimal empathy for other people who are labeled your enemies or the other party or whatever it might be. That's also reflected in I think how you treat the people around you, including the people you love most. Uh And not excluding. So you know, uh how you

treat others as you would have them treat you. It goes the other way around as well. And I think that Yeah, how you r how you relate to the world and treat others is also often mirrored in how you relate and Yeah, deeply positive, I think. Uh it makes you more adaptable and it's it's also very practical from a an emotional health

perspective. Well they they say that that empathy is a key driver in success. you know, some of the most successful people, um, you know, have have Have you know had that had those those

Um You know. characterizations or could be c characterized as as being empathy. I mean there's a direct correlation between Empathy and success. Um

But yeah, I mean and I think that it's it's also You you you you can develop empathy too. You know, it's it's it's not like it's something that you're born with, right? And I think for young people Um, for any parents who are who are listening to this, or just young people who are really attached to their devices, I think

you know, take that time, as I mentioned earlier, to just like put it away and have conversations with people, like really, really connect with people on a human level. I think that the further we get away from that you know, the further we get from you know being able to feel empathy. And I think a great example of one of those conversations is the conversation that you had with your mom and the steps that you took. after a childhood, which is very common for many people listening, of not discussing emotions. through therapy, through this conversation with your mom and so on.

creating access to your own emotions and greater awareness of your own emotions. naturally led you to a greater development of empathy towards other people. Because you're you're able to recognize it.

Yeah, I I know I'm a better person as a result of that experience. And and ultimately I do think I'm a better mom because of it, because I I recognize how much it benefit me to take the time to understand. You know, my mom's past. Um, it it was one of the most important life lessons for me. Yeah, uh I would imagine your kids are going to benefit tremendously from

The effort that you took. Mm. Having Some very uncomfortable conversations at the time. And

Uh let me ask just a a few more questions. I know we're coming up on time shortly. Uh this is this is a uh a hard question, so you can sort of tackle it from any angle you like, but the billboard question. So if if you could put a message, a quote an image, anything non commercial on a billboard. Metaphorically to To get something out to billions of people, let's say.

Does anything come to mind that you might put On such a billboard. Um You know, the thing that I think would speak to these times would be Like

Stop texting and start listening. Yeah. Because I I just I feel like so much has gotten lost in this digital This digital culture that we are. You know, living in.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes, indeed. I uh I think we're very Poorly, poorly designed for the environments. That we have created for ourselves.

From a digital perspective. Yeah, and I mean You know, I and and and and I need to practice what I preach because I'm on my device a lot. I I try really hard now to put it away when I'm at home and if I have to do some work on it. I'll tell my my kids like I'm gonna go upstairs into another room because it's just it's rude for me to be on my phone in front of them all the time. And how can I expect them to not be on the phone all the time when You know, they get their devices one day or when their parents one day.

Um So I I I I try really hard and I am as guilty as the next person um of you know going down that rabbit hole of social media late at night, you know, it's just like an hour will elapse and I'm still on Instagram and feeling really shitty about myself because I've just looked at these perfect lives of people, you know. And

And look like I'll be honest, there have been Um you know, dinners that I I see my friends posting about that I wasn't invited to and I feel this like pang of like

Why why wasn't I invited to that? You know, I definitely have felt that and I'm thinking to myself, I'm an adult. I can get over this stuff pretty quickly. But for this young generation of kids that um you know is growing up with this Like not getting invited to

you know, a party. And not just any party, because you don't just post any party on Instagram. You post like the sickest party you've ever been to on Instagram, right? And not getting invited to that. Like what does that do to your ego? You know, it's like The thing I hated the most about high school was just like I remember that kind of obsession I had with popularity. You know,'cause I think all young people they they want to know what their place is and they wanna have friends and you know, they they they they they want they wanna be popular. Social media is Every like

That which I hated about popularity in high school magnified And I just, you know, I think that we all need to just like put it aside from time to time and just like breathe and really, really connect with people. So like the message that that my billboard, you know, would contain would definitely have to do with just like, you know, connecting with humans. Mm-hmm.

Well, you do a good job of of showcasing that. in in the work that you put out and you have Uh this season six. This is life. Yeah. On CNN.

Uh premiering Sunday, September twenty ninth, ten PM Eastern and Pacific. Uh And for the since we just mentioned social media, people can find you on Instagram. Correct me if I'm getting any of this wrong, Lisa Ling Instagram. That's your handle. Twitter at Lisa Ling. I'm sorry, go ahead. Lisa Lingstagram. Oh, there we go. Oh I missed the I missed the S Lisa Lingstagram. Lisa Lingstagram. Okay, I'll I will link to that just to save people the the spelling challenge.

Twitter a little bit easier, at Lisa Ling, is that right? That's right. And then uh you've got uh we've got the website to This Is Life, which I'll I'll link to in the show notes. Facebook. Is it facebook dot com slash ling?

Yes. All right. It is. And I and I try hard to, you know, read a lot of the messages that I get, but I'm not great at it because I've been trying really hard, especially when I'm around my kids. to be present with them and you know, I am going to start taking bigger breaks.

From social media because I just, you know, I think we all need to just have those breathers. And I hope people will do that along with me. Yeah. Yeah, social media will still be here when you get back. Exactly. Exactly. Uh Lisa do you have anything else you would like to add, any suggestions? Comments, uh any any parting words before we wrap up? Um I mean, I think we covered a lot. I I think you're great and I'm

I I hope we can work together in some capacity, maybe on psychedelic stuff. Yeah, I would love that. I would love that. I'd love to be a be a resource and help in any way. I appreciate that you're out there having really thoughtful conversations with people. You too. You too, Lisa. You've been doing this uh long before this podcast was even an idea in my head. So you've you've paved the way and uh provided a really inspiring example, uh, no doubt to

So many people who have then um wanted to emulate what you do, which is providing a a full human picture. in subcultures and related to topics that can be polarizing or uncomfortable. And that's a that's a very important service in the world and it's hard for me to imagine, at least as long as I've been on this planet, a more important time for that type of influence to exist offset.

So much. of uh the terrifying sort of polarization that exists in the world right now. So thank you for doing what you do. Thanks, Tim. Likewise. And uh so I think this is a natural place to close. So thank you very much.

Lisa And uh In the show notes. As usual.

at Tim.blog forward slash podcast and just look up Lisa Ling and it will come to your fingertips. And until next time, thanks for listening. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share The coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up.

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