I.R.S. Records: Miles Copeland

I went to A and M. I knew that I wouldn't be seen by the top guy, but I went to the guy the guy that finds the artists, you know. Right. So I went in and I said, Look. I have nothing to recommend this group. I've got no press. I've got no tour.

They've got no fans. I've got nothing. Except I've got a great record. And here's the deal I'm gonna make with you. It's free.

Just pay me the highest royalty A and M pays if it sells. If it doesn't sell No skin off your nose, no skin off my nose. The record's yours. Now let me play the record.

Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. They built. I'm Guy Roz and on the show today, how Miles Copeland helped rejuvenate rock and roll by taking a chance on unknown artists, founding a record label, and bringing us the police, the go-go's, REM. And many more.

The music business is really tough. Every single day. Somewhere between twenty and sixty thousand songs get uploaded to Spotify. That is an Ocean of music being put out every day, more music than at any other time in human history. And it means that for most artists, It's almost impossible to make money on selling music alone. You've got to turn your band into a business.

Live touring, merch sales, maybe a Patreon or a band campsite. Grand partnerships, whatever it takes. And if you're a record label, streaming services, like Spotify, pay a fraction of a cent every time someone plays your music. Which means unless your artist is Drake or Taylor Swift. it's pretty hard to make the kind of profits you used to make from record sales. But in the nineteen eighties,

Running a record label was Almost like Printing money. Because if you could sign an obscure artist for next to nothing, and figure out how to get their music play on the radio?

you could make a lot of money from selling records. And it really only took one good band to make it work. And for Miles Copeland? That band? was the police. It just so happened that his small record label was starting to get some traction in the late nineteen seventies, right around the time Miles' brother Stuart,

A drummer? met a singer named Sting. And it was one song in particular You know the one, go ahead. Sing it.

It was that song. that Sting and Stuart played for miles that convinced him that the police were destined for something big and you will hear that story in this episode. If you listened to FM radio or watched MTV in the 1980s, it was impossible to avoid hearing the artists on Miles' label. IRS records.

He would go on to sign the go-go's REM. The stranglers, fine young cannibals, oingo boingo, the bangles, and many other bands that would come to define the decade. And what made Miles Copeland particularly successful was his instinct for good music. He simply signed bands he liked.

But the story of how he became a record label mogul? really happened by accident. After college, Miles had considered following in his father's footsteps and maybe joining the CIA. His dad, also named Miles Copeland, was at one point the CIA station chief in Damascus.

And Miles grew up in Beirut, Lebanon at the height of the Cold War. the oldest of four kids, including the aforementioned Stuart, and another brother, Ian, who would go on to become a prominent music promoter in the US. As a teenager, Miles attended the American School in Beirut. And just like any American teen in the 1950s and sixties, He was glued to the music on the radio.

Well, I would listen to the BBC, you know, th I would listen to the voice of America, I would Every time my father went back to the the United States, I would say to him, you know, walk into a record store and By the top records. And what do you remember I mean, this is the late fifties, early sixties, what do you remember listening to? Jerry Lee Lewis, great balls of fire, you know, Little Richard. The big bopper. Um

Elvis Spressley had been a big deal when I had just left America. But later on it would be you what was going on in San Francisco and and uh, you know, the doors and Jefferson Airplane and all those sort of bands, you know. you actually attended college um in the US and you graduated I think in nineteen sixty six But after that, uh you

came back to Lebanon to Beirut to do a master's degree. at the American university there, I guess, in in economics and And the story I wrote is that while you were a student uh there, you what, like started to promote some concerts on campus. Wha what did that mean? Like what did you uh how did what were you doing and how did you get into that? Well, it actually was a uh a series of accidents, you know, that had really no plan involved, you know.

My little brother Stuart had decided he wanted to be a drummer. And he had got himself a drum kit and As it happens. There was a local

group at the high school, you know, called the Wichita Vortex Sutra. And they lost their drummer who went back to America for Christmas and so they went to Stuart and said, Well, we've lost our drummer, will you sit in and drum with us? So obviously Stuart invited me to the show and he was some silly little club, you know, and I went with a friend of mine and You know, Stuart was up there drumming and I thought

There's my brother, who's actually In a band in the So all of a sudden the music business the distance between me thinking that there is a chasm between me the the kid listening to music and the music business itself, that chasm sort of disappeared. Yeah.

And as it happened. Later on the group comes to see me and says, Look Would you help us? We've got a gig at the university. So I said, Well, what the hell, you know. It was literally that it was it was one of these moments where as you just say

Well, I got nothing better to do, so okay. Sure, I'll do it. You you went to help arrange the concert for them on the campus of the American University. Well, I I went to help organize the the sort of show, you know. They had this idea that well, we wanna have the kind of a psychedelic happening. We've been reading about this thing that's going on in San Francisco, so You know, we need somebody to help us do it. And I had no clue. We did create a happening, of course it had nothing to do with what was going on in San Francisco. I mean there were no drugs for instance. But it was a big success. The kids went crazy.

So then the group came to me and said, Well, you've got to come and help us on all the other shows we doing. Well, there weren't very many, but the words had got out that I was You know, helping. And then I was approached by a Promoter who was importing groups from England. This is a Lebanese promoter.

Yeah. That was uh brought in by this promoter was a group an English group called Rupert's People. Rupert's People, right. And the next thing I knew, I was helping him with his show. You know, he sort of sold them as from London, you know. Yeah. Rupert's people. So so from what I understand

you graduate I think in sixty nine and and I guess around that time Uh your family actually moved to London, right? And so And I guess there was this this ban, this this band called Rupert's People, right, that you'd worked with before And what, they got back in touch with you and said hey

We need a manager, can you help us out? Is that is that right? What like what's the story? Well Rupert's people Had had a single that went Top thirty. You know, but at the time that that I was seeing them They all had jobs, you know. They were not a professional band. A lot of them didn't even have equipment.

So it was you know, they said they wanted me to manage them and I said, Well, I don't know anything and they said, Well, we'll show you. Well The first gig they took me to was to a club near my parents' house. And I happened to meet a group and who later became Wishbone Ash, who really became my first management artist.

Yeah. Rupert's people sort of faded into the background because they really weren't a professional group yet. They were hoping that I was some sort of rich American who might finance them. And uh I think that's why they asked me to manage them. Hm.

Alright, so That kind of fizzled out, but you went on to Which is the first time.

Was a massive group, a progra group, right, in the early seven and people forget about them. They never really had a a revival in the US, but they were even big in the US at a certain point. Well they they were I would say they were moderately successful. They weren't as big as let's say Jethrile Tull or ten years after or some of these big bands, but They were successful enough that people know who they were.

And I learned a lot from them and they learned a lot from me. We basically it was a learning experience'cause I knew nothing about the music business. But I did learn about touring America. You know, I brought them to America That was a big deal for British artists, really, because they the whole idea of You know. Oh wow, we're gonna play America, you know.

That's the big game. The fact that I Was an American. Kind of opened the doors, I think. And a lot of the groups that I was starting to work with were thinking, well, I could take them to America, which was their big dream.

So at this point you're clearly I mean this is the early seventies, you're clearly now in this business. And you're starting to think Okay. what does this mean? I mean what was your

were you thinking, All right, I'll be a manager, I'll manage bands, or were you thinking did you start to think, Well, maybe I should really think bigger about what I want to do in in this industry. Well I I kinda went with the flow. And I think a lot of people do that. I think, you know, to sit back and say, Well, I'm gonna do this, this, and maybe some people plot out their lives, but do they really know what they're gonna do? I had a group called Wishbone Ash. I then picked up the Climax Blues Band and Renaissance and Curved Air and

Caravan and you know, Al Stewart and and you know Did I know when I had signed Wishbone Ash in the beginning that I was gonna end up managing five acts, you know? No, I didn't really know. And one thing led to another, led to another, led to another. I mean, what did it mean to manage a band? I mean, you were managing their finances, you were managing their booking schedule. And presumably these bands weren't making a whole lot of money at the time. Yeah, I I

Book the shows. I was the publicist. Yeah. I even helped them carry their equipment. I was forced to learn every aspect of the business. And I think one of the advantages that I had was I had an American accent. Mm-hmm.

So what I'd call up a club. You know, it'd be Hi, my name is Miles Copeland, I've got this new band to book, you know. They would not be quite so sure as to who this guy was. Well maybe he's somebody important, you know. Whereas if I was some British person, you know, Hello, I'm I'm Scoutland, I got his group they'd think, Oh yeah, yeah, this guy's from Birmingham, yeah, he's a schmuck. Click, hang up the phone. But they assumed that maybe I did know something.

So they would listen, you know, and then I would Basically sell on my group. something you did early on in your career and I I don't know how you did this, was you You started a

Industry trade magazine called College Event. This was basically like a phone. It was like a listing of all the artists touring, who their agents were, what their booking fees were, and apparently nothing like this existed. But I guess also You would write positive glowing articles about your artists that you represented.

In this magazine except your name was nowhere to be found in this magazine. So nobody no one knew that Miles Copeland was behind this magazine and yet You were promoting your own bands in the magazine. Well I I learned very quickly, you know, okay.

One of the major jobs is to let The world knows That you're Artist exists. Well

The reality is when you're starting off with an artist In England you literally had to only reach The people that books. The acts, which was probably two to three hundred people. Maximum. Right.

So I said well If I have a magazine All I have to do is Send out two hundred copies. To two hundred people.

And if they have booked the act. Then You know I I Done. My job of marketing. It doesn't need to be fancy and flashy.

But it's gotta have credibility. So I found a university kids that at University College London who actually books groups And said to him, Hey, how'd you like to be the uh editor of a magazine? And he thought, Well

Cool. So I now had the credibility of a guy that actually books acts as the editor of the magazine. So basically the magazine w started off with couple of mimigraph pages. And it

had reviews of My artist. Plus others, of course. Yeah. But I would have great reviews of Wishbone Ash in it, you know, of course. So And actually the magazine kind of took off because but unbeknownst to me, there was literally nothing like it.

So a lot of the agents and everybody began to take advantage of it because now they could advertise for You know. Fifty two cents. and reach who they wanted to reach, whereas the act and the record companies were busy spending fortunes in the big magazines. So it was definitely one of the ways

Let people know the act existed. Alright, so you are managing these bands and I guess in in seventy five you organize this uh you launch this like multi band tour of European festivals. This is called uh Star Treken seventy five. And um Mm. It had.

soft machine and Lou Reed was part of it. But apparently it did not. Go as planned. This was Supposed to be a huge tour.

What happened on that tour? Well the idea of the chore was if you could associate your Up and coming artists with bigger names. then people would assume your artists were bigger than they really were. Yeah. So my idea was to say, well if I can have John McLaughlin's Mahavishna Orchestra and I can have Lou Reed and I can have you know these big names

And then have my acts on the same bill with them. My acts will appear to be Bigger. And uh I got the bands together and off we went. We did the tour. Well Where did you start? Wh was the first uh city that you went to? It was in Holland somewhere. I I can't even remember where the first show was. And you had all your band all your bands, Lou Reed, John McLaughlin's group, soft machine, ready to go, ready to perform. Yeah.

Well, I different groups I had in different countries. Like Lou Reed was very big in Spain. So I made sure that he was booked for the Spanish show. Right. The headliners would fluctuate based on who was big in that marketplace. But My acts were always there. Unfortunately, Lou Reed never showed up. He never

unbeknownst to me, I had booked him, I had made it contract with the agency Little did I know that he had left the agency. And I I was getting kinda worried at one point because I was waiting so

You know, we need to know when Lou Reed is showing up and Spain because we had a meetup at the airport and all that, you know, so I contacted the agency in America and of course no response and Something's wrong here. And then I finally found Lou Reed. In New Zealand.

Wow. I realize at that point that Now I was really in trouble. Lou Reed was not gonna show up in Spain. Which of course meant that the promoter then took advantage of me and said, Well, you know, your headliner hasn't showed up, so therefore I'm gonna pay you half the money and That wasn't enough to cover all our costs and it went downhill from there. So it ended up as a financial disaster. Disaster. You had to pay transportation fees and all of the

venue fees and the the artist fees. So I mean To say the least, you lost a lot of money. I lost. Not only a lot of my I lost everything. I lost every penny I had.

Plus money I didn't have. And I could not pay. Wishbone Ash and some of the bands that I was working with. And I sa I had to say, look, I'm sorry, but This whole thing has become a complete disaster.

And I don't have the money to pay ya, but I've I feel so bad about it, I'll resign. So I resigned as the Bushbone Ash's manager. So this is seventy five, you're thirty one years old, you're bankrupt at this point, completely bankrupt. I'm on the verge of bankruptcy and I went to all the people I owed money to and I said, Look, if you bankrupt me You know what's gonna happen, you know, it'll go to the courts and you'll end up with one penny for every pound that you're owed.

If that But if you give me a couple of years I'll give you fifty percent of what I owe you. And luckily for me, everybody agreed. So

I did not actually go bankrupt, but I was On the verge. I should have gone bankrupt. But you certainly had had a major failure. I mean that's that was Oh, it was it and a a lot of people wrote me off. A lot of people said, Well, that's it. Miles Culpin's finished. Yeah. And you y d did you think that and any part of you think that? Well, I couldn't really think about it because the reality is what am I gonna do now?

Yeah. I knew the music business. Which was an asset. I just didn't have any money. When we come back in just a moment. How Miles went from the verge of bankruptcy

just a few years later? Managing and recording some of the biggest bands in the world. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening.

how I built this. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around nineteen seventy six and Miles Copeland is in London starting over after losing all of his money. And fortunately for him, right around the same time.

There's a new movement in the music scene where the bands couldn't really care less. If he was broke. And that was the punk rock marketplace. Yeah. The fact that you didn't have any money. Meant nothing to Billy Idle, you know, the Generation X, or to Suzy Nebanshees, or to the the Fall any of these bands. What they wanted was somebody who could call up the

the various clubs and knew the music business. and can help them get a foot in the door. I had no money. But I had the experience. So you could book some of these bands at the clubs because you had the

And how did you find the the bands? I mean how did you identify or how did they find you? Well, as it happened. My Old time partner who I first started into business with had an office in a place called Dryden Chambers off Oxford Street in London.

So when I Basically had fallen into hard times and given up my fancy offices and all that. I called him up and said, look, Do you have room? Can you give me a desk and a phone? And he said, Well, okay. So it just so happened it in that same building

It was Malcolm Claren and the Sex Pistols. The manager of the Sex Pistols. The manager of the Sex Pistols. He w he was on the floor above me. So I was reading in the newspapers about all these bands and that that the music business literally had written off And said, Well, they can't play their instruments. It's a fad.

So I I read that, you know, the sex busils couldn't get a gig. Well I said, Well Yeah, let me call up some of the people I know. So I'd call up one of the clubs and I say, Will you book the sex business? And a lot of people said, Well okay, if the price is right, I'll do it. So I'd go back up to I'd go up to Malcolm and say, Well, I've been reading that you can't book a show

I just booked three shows for you. And He would look at me and go, Oh, uh what dates are they? And then he would tell me, No, we can't do them. So I go back downstairs and I call the clubs and say, Well, look, those dates don't work and I go back up to Malcolm and say, Look, I

Can you do these? And he started yelling at me. DON'T YOUNT! I get more press saying the bad can't get a gig, you're screwing up my whole rap. Get out of my office. And I said, Well, by the way, I know you're gonna scream at me.

But I did book one show in Holland. And he said, Oh. Holland. Oh, we can do Holland. So I went with the sex pistols.

to Holland. So I became the first promoter To do a a U a period of date. With the sex pistols. Well, that gave me huge credibility among the punk world. Yeah. So all of a sudden

Billy Idle, the whole lot. They all were at my door saying, Will you book my group? And That's really how I got into the punk world because I was the only person who actually would call up some of these places and book the groups. And these groups.

The whole rationale of the punk world was you don't need a lot of equipment You don't need a lot of roadies. You don't need a lot, you know. It was really minimalist. The problem was a lot of the groups were so disorganized they couldn't get to themselves to shows, you know. So I would book Generation X, let's say, in Birmingham.

I'd get a phone call that afternoon. Oh Mall, sorry we can't make the show because uh can't find a van. Hm. Well My brother Stuart had also become enamored with this whole idea of the punk world where it's minimalist Very few people he had formed a group called the police. So I'd call up Stuart and say, look, I got this gig.

For Generation X. But they can't make it to Birmingham. Can you get to Birmingham? And he said, Sure. So the police ended up being a fill in act for a lot of the punk groups.

So so this is a an important pivotal moment in your life and career and also in your brother Stuart's life and career, which is He co founds this band, called the police, with this guy named Sting. And eventually um a guitarist named Andy Summers.

Play. And you met Sting, you know, this is seventy seven. Your brother, he's a drummer. Turns out that he would become one of the greatest drummers in rock and roll. Um d were you blown away? Were you like, Oh my god, this guy Sting is an amazing vocalist and front man. Like what was your impression? It was again another situation where you're going with the flow, basically, you know. Stuart

It was not a punk. Sting hated the whole punk rock scene. You know, I mean he was a jazz player. Yeah, yeah. You know. He he knew a lot more than three chords. You know, most punks had trouble finding three corner. Yeah, he was a professor, you know.

So State was intellectual. But he didn't know what he was gonna do with life and Stuart had talked him into this punk group and he'd read the newspapers too. So he figured, Well, what the hell, you know. Stuart didn't co-found the group.

He founded the police. Yeah, right. It was his idea. He came up with the name. And he said, Well The minimum I can get away with was three people, so he got in Henry. So basically I didn't

realized that there was something special there in the beginning. I mean it was my brother. I threw gigs his way when I could. Sure. Sting it didn't really like. Punk rock. I mean I remember him walking out on stage once saying, Well Well we we call ourselves a punk group, which means we sing banal lyrics.

And we're full of crap. Or something to that effect. cringing to myself, thinking, Sting, for Christ's sake, don't say that, you know. But it wasn't until I had heard Roxanne that I realized that there was something really special there. So I guess there was a really important turn point. The police were a band that you were certainly it was your brother's band, you were promoting them, managing them, but But you're also booking gigs for much bigger acts at that time, like Blondie, right? And uh Lou Reed, I think you did his tour in you know in the UK. You were you were promoting Patty Smith, some big acts in the UK. Yeah.

But then in in nineteen seventy nine, I guess, you saw the police rehearsing or I guess they the They played the song. Roxanne for you? Tell me what you remember, like where where were you when you first heard that song?

Well actually what happened was My brother. was impatient. He he had a burning Desire to succeed.

He had formed the police. He wanted to be a punk group. And Nothing was good enough, you know? And um I had come across a studio just outside of London

Where the where the doctor The M D by Day was hoping to become a record producer engineer. And he said to he said, Look, I've got this studio I've built in the back of my medical practice. And I'll give you a month in the studio.

For a thousand pounds. Mm. So I said to Stuart How about Let's make a police album.

So I became effectively the record company. So the police went in to this studio in Leatherhead. For a month. And put down the album.

Yeah. And towards the end of it, I I went in and they played all the songs and I was not particularly impressed. And I finally said, Okay, well what else you got? And they said, Well, there's one other song, but you'll hate it'cause it's a ballad. So

The idea that Roxanne, which was the sweet Love song to a prostitute, you know. was really not what they figured I would be looking for. Anyway, I I said, Well look, I'm here, I've come all the way to Leatherhead. It's an hour drive. Play the d play the damn song, you know. Well, finally the engineer just said, Well, it's a good song and

He stuck it on. And um They had mixed sort of reggae with with the sort of punk energy. And Roxanne was just just this unique combination of stuff, you know.

So At the end of the song I looked at the guys and I said, Gentlemen That song is gonna change our lives. You've written a classic. They all looked at me like I had two heads. They said, What? You like that?

Well, of course, then Sting has some more up his sleeve. That's when it you know can't stand losing you and some of these other songs begin to percolate. And I said, Look, I think this song is so good It's bigger than I can do myself. So I'm gonna go to AM records. And I'm gonna try to make a deal to put you on A and M a a real

Major label. respected record company. 'Cause I just don't have the wherewithal to Do it justice. Yeah. And I knew A and M wanted to be in the punk world. They knew something was going on.

but they didn't want to deal with crazy people. So I went to A and M. I knew that I wouldn't be seen by the top guy, but I went to the guy the the what they call the the artist and repertoire guy. The the the A and R the guy that signs the artists, you know. Right. So I went to him and I said, Look, I have nothing to recommend this group.

I've got no press. I've got no tour. They've got no fans. I've got nothing. Except I've got a great record.

And here's the deal I'm gonna make with you. It's free. You've got it. Just pay me the highest royalty A and M pays if it sells. If it doesn't sell No skin off your nose, no skin off my nose. The record's yours.

Mm. Now let me play the record. 'Cause I knew that if I had I'd gone in there and asked for money And Put risk.

In the game. The guy would think well You know, it's gonna take my budget, suppose it fails. What do I say to my boss? So I had to eliminate all of the negatives that could possibly be there. Yeah.

And I think that's probably the first time he ever listened to the music without thinking Ooh, what's this gonna cost me? What if it fails? So he just listened to the music. And you know what? The music was good. Wow, you were giving up

the IP of the record because you had no cash, you had no options, but I guess the upside. You you would get the upside if it worked out. That was the plan. We would get our high royalty. Which would mean we'd make money. Right.

So now The police were on AM Records, which was a prestigious label. Right. And the only caveat was that they would put the single out in America. Which they ended up not doing, by the way.

So They put the record out. Doesn't really do a lot in England, but the police could say we're on A and M records. I then called up my brother Ian.

who I uh had taken a job with an agency in in Macon, Georgia. And I said, Look, can you book me a tour? In America. And and just to be clear, your other brother, Ian Copeland, who also was very successful. I guess at the time he was working at this agency that booked and and promoted

bands like rock rock and roll bands in the US. Yeah. Okay. And he said, look, it's gonna be really tough. There's no record released here. A and M has not hasn't put out their record. I said, yes, but can you do it? He said, Okay, I'll try.

And sure enough, we got a five week tour of America. Playing every dive you can think of. And did people show up? Very few people showed up. And the most significant club

Which was in northern New York. Four people showed up. But Four people was a DJ.

In the in watching the show was a DJ, okay. And he loved Roxanne. And he went back to Boston. And he started Banging that single.

Well. So all of a sudden We ended up with A heavy airplay. In one of America's big cities.

And that got the attention of Jerry Moss. The M of A and M records. Who didn't know from Adam who the police were. But you can see in Billboard it said The number one import record in the United States is the police.

And it had A and M next to it. Wow. So I got a phone call from Jerry Ma saying I'm looking at Billboard and it says the biggest import record is the police. Is that my record in America? I said, yes it is.

And he said, Well We better do something, I said, Yeah, you better. He says, Well get the band over here and we'll start working the record. And that started the place off. But but it's still

an AM record, right? So how does your label IRS Emerge. Well IRS records probably would not have existed had it not been for the police. And when the police became really big

I all of a sudden gained a certain credibility as well, because I I had sort of masterminded. in their view, this opening of the police to come and break America and it was the first punk rock band that really sold some records and was really happening and But I then had these bands back in England who were saying, Well, you know, what about me? So I decided I would go to Jerry Moss.

And do the same thing I did with the police in the beginning. I went to Jerry and I said, look, I've got a lot of bands that I've already recorded. In England. I'm prepared to put my own money in. So I'm not gonna ask you for a penny.

But I wanna have a record company. that A M will distribute. And you can decide how many records you press, whether you're gonna market it or not. It's totally up to you. I'm giving you the label for free. But you have to put out The records.

And you know, Jerry Moss would have sort of thought, Well This Miles guy seems to be on to something. He's gonna pay for the record, so yeah, okay, we'll give you a label. Mm. And IRS records.

But what I don't understand, Miles, is you were I mean, was it a joint venture? My my understanding is that IRS was basically an independent record company and you kind of worked with A and M as You you owned the Master Recordings as IRS records. They would then Sell them and and

press the records in the United States and distribute them, promote them. Was was that basically the arrangement? Yeah, I I owned the records, but I gave them the permanent distribution rights. And as it turned out I probably had to do that to get Jeremy Off to say yes. So I made him a deal he couldn't refuse.

And guess what? He didn't refuse. Yeah. And I think that was one of the secret for me. I mean I I say there were two things. Make a yes and easy answer. And secondly Make something affordable.

Because if it's cost too much money, you can't do it. So The punk thing was affordable. IRS records was affordable. Why wouldn't you have

Just Formed I just come to the US and done it yourself. Why why did you feel like it was important to have A and M as a partner? You know, to take a record to market in America, you need somebody to go to radio stations. You need somebody to go to the record stores.

You need an organization. America is a big country. So you could be huge in New York, but nobody has ever heard of you in in Los Angeles. So I knew I needed Number one, I needed credibility. Number two, I needed some sort of team.

that could take a record to a marketplace. And I needed enough of a prestige that I could go to certain acts and say, Look We're distributed by A and M records. Yeah. And if you give me your record I can give you major distribution in America.

And that's what they all wanted. So and and this was a time where bands made money from selling records. They don't anymore. They make money from touring mainly now. But At the time, right, this was You really wanted your band to just get big so they could sell lots of records. That was how they were gonna make money.

So nowadays, you know, people say, Oh, well you don't make any money selling records. Well selling C D's, no, you don't sell a lot of records, you know. But Spotify now, because there's billions of people who've signed on to it. That zero zero zero one cent times X billion actually is real money.

So you can make money now with having b being on some of these uh platforms. But yes. The Grateful Dead still have more T shirts. You know, than they do records. Sure. KISS make a lot of money for merchandise. So depending on the artist and what their infrastructure is.

You can make a lot of money from all sorts of different areas of of the entertainment or music business. So essentially now you've got this r label, IRS, which was based in London, right? Or and you had an office in New York too, I think. Our main headquarters Ended up being Los Angeles.

Yeah. realizes that I'm gonna be flooding all over the place with the police or squeeze or whatever. I needed some team here to to work the label. So I had to make like my the one of my first employees was a guy named Jay Boberg. I couldn't pay him a normal salary. So I said, I'll tell you what, I'm gonna pay you a hundred bucks a week. Which was a joke. But I'll give you five percent of the record company.

Each year you stay with a company for the first five years. So Jay ended up with twenty five percent of the label. Wow and I made him vice president of the label. So for him Here's this kid. Still in college. And he's vice president of IRS Records.

The fact that he makes a hundred bucks a week, who cares? He's probably living with his parents, you know. Was this why'cause you know Within the first two years, I mean you would you would go on to sign. R E M. The Buzzcocks. Uh the beat.

I mean RM of course would go on to be one of the biggest bands in the world. W was he the guy that that identified some of these acts? He identified he he got into REM. Before I did. But he you know, most of the acts I signed. It was my record company.

And eventually I relocated to LA. Alright, LA an important place for you to be because There were some really important LA bands that you would go on to sign, Oingo Boingo. Uh the go-go's. became the biggest

Act. in the US and one of the biggest acts in the world. Had it was there a lot of competition to get at the time to get these acts to sign? Were there a million A and R' coming to them from different labels trying to 'Cause IRS wasn't a major, major label compared to the other ones at that point. So how were you able to sign these these bands? Well I think the Go Go story is is would answer your question because Please. The Go Goes wanted to be out a big record company. But nobody would sign them'cause they were all girls. Mm.

And th they say like in their they did a documentary for Showtime a couple of years ago when they actually say they said we were rejected by everybody'cause we're all female band. Because they were all fem females. Yeah. I went to the whiskey of go go and I saw the band play and they were fantastic. And I I looked around. There was not one single AR person From another record company in the room.

And I looked at it and I thought. Five girls, how bad can it be? What a great hook. And I went backstage and I said, Well, I'd like you to be with IRS records. Well they thought, Well, Iris Records, it isn't a real record company. I mean Yeah, they've got I and M distribution, but we really want to be with a big company. So they said to me, Well, okay, we'll think about it. And then they went around to all the other labels and they said, IRS has made us an offer

We not sign us. Everybody said no. So they came back to me and they said, Okay, we'll sign one with IRS records. But they were not thrilled initially with IRS records. And nor should they have been, because we really had never had a hit.

But The reality was once the Gogo's went to number one The world woke up. And we started having competition. But by then we had already developed a reputation and so We managed to sign continue to sign a lot of bands. Yeah.

But it got harder and harder as time went on. So this was the the record you're talking about, I think is Beauty and the Beat, right? The first go go's record. We that our lips are sealed and We got the beat. And that I mean I think they were the first

all female rock band to have a number one album on the billboard. Well, they remain the only female rock band to ever have a number one record on the Billboard charts. There have been plenty of singles that were number one. But never an album.

Hm. They were a lot more important than people give them credit for because they they really did open up the world to Girls. Being able to play as musicians. And

They got to be huge. Miles, let me let me try to understand the economics of a record label back in the in the early eighties, right? You You have a band like the Go Go's. And you put out this record, Beauty and the Beat, which you know, your financing as IRS

and it just goes gangbusters. It it it becomes a number one hit. At that time, how much money What a band like the Go Go's make from that record? I remember writing a cheque for a million dollars at one point for them. Yeah. But of course. The first thing that happens, you know, people always talk about record companies and they always make'em out to be e evil people and all that, you know.

Which in cases some cases it's true. They are. They are, yeah. There's just as many times as the groups are 'Cause they're usually very young and they don't really appreciate the fact that, you know, it takes a lot of money to make something successful. The first thing that happens when you get a number one record is is you renegotiate your record deal. Yes. Right. So when the police really started happening, well, of course the lawyer comes to me and says, Look, let's go to the record company and let's get more royalty and All we have to do is give them another record on the deal. Yep.

So we did that. Many times with the police. So the go goes after that record went to number one, of course, their lawyer calls me up and says, Well, we wanna break the contract and we wanna we want more money and we want this Well, we ended up In dispute.

And finally Belinda Carlyle calls me up and says Miles I don't know what's going on, but Will you meet the band, just you and the band. Mm. No lawyers, no managers, nothing. And I said, Well, great.

So we go and we meet. And we realize Really there's very little Dispute between us, you know. And I remember writing a check for a million dollars. I said, look, we're happy to give you more money, just give us a few more records.

Of course, needless to say, they broke up on the third record. So those extra records I negotiated I never got. So I mean here's the thing though, right? When you're running a record label You always have to know in the back of your mind. That yes, you are putting money up for

an unknown band and and but, you know, if you're smart and from from what I've read in your books and and about you, you are very tough negotiator. You got Deals. Then Understandably we're in your favor, but

You always know They're gonna figure out or find a way to to go to a bigger label. You you always have to know that, right, in your business.

Well Somebody once said to me, If you want loyalty Get a dog. Because there is no such thing in the record business, you know. Because everybody has starts whispering in their ear

You could make a lot more money if you were so and so. Thankfully, I ended up with a good relationship with a lot of the people we signed. But there were some people that I've never had a great relationship with because they just assume That if you're on the business side, you have to be a crook. Do you think, though, in order to be successful, Miles, You in your position, right? Running a record label.

knowing that there's always gonna be competitors and sharks circling the waters waiting for your bands to jump ship, right? And they're also there's fierce competition. This is the eighties when People making a lot of money off record sales. In order to be successful, do you kinda have to be an SOB? Yes or no. Um

The reality is, you know Everybody wants more later on. Do you think Jay Boberg would have accepted a hundred dollars a week salary Three years in and after we've had a number one record with the go goes. Well no.

And so that's why a lot of labels never Make it and why a lot of groups break up is that They imagine that that Things are gonna be like it was in the early days. Well it never is, you know. And I mean I remember the R M deal. R M came to us at the end of the contract and said, Look

You offer us the best deal, we'll sign with you. We we love IRS. But we owe it to ourselves to go to the marketplace to see what the marketplace will offer. And I remember with our um I had finally r got to the paid the most money that I could possibly pay. So I went to Jerry Moss and he says, Well I'll I'll contribute three million.

And I was putting up three million. Anyway. I say to the group this is what we'll offer and it ended up between us and Warner Brothers. And then The manager and the a the lawyer come to me and they said, Well, Miles, we just left the Warner Brothers offices and here's what they said.

Whatever Miles offers you. We'll double it. Yeah. I looked at the group and I said, Here's my advice. Get out of my office right now! Go straight to Warner Brothers.

Sign that deal before they change their mind. So nineteen eighty four. You have a massive year four albums in the top forty. You have the go goes, you've got R E M, you've got the police a police that year would go on hiatus and that they never

record another studio record after that. But I mean I think um by eighty four they'd probably sold like seventy five million records. I think uh s I read that synchronicity sold 8 million copies in the US. alone. So this is a big year. Yeah, I mean it it the police were a phenomenal, let's be honest, you know. I mean I can say all right, I've sold over three hundred

three hundred and fifty million albums of all the acts that I work with. Well, you know. That's probably an underestimation. I don't I have no idea. But it was a lot of records. Put it there. A lot of records yeah. And I mean, it's kinda nutty because Here you are running

Probably the hottest label. one of the hottest labels in in the world. And your brother is the drummer of one of the biggest bands in the world. And you kind of Built this. Business up.

Together. Yeah, we we had and my brother Ian was had the FBI agency, which is the brother was a promoter and uh and a manager. He was the biggest agent in the in the whole field of of the new wave, you know. Are you close with your brothers? Were you I know Ian is obviously I was very close to Ian and very close to Stuart at the time. My brother Ian unfortunately died. And a c and Stuart I he and I don't talk very much in it anymore, but The reality was, yeah, we we were on to something

We were at the right place at the right time. Yeah. And we did open doors for a lot of people. you know, I don't want to pry into your family affairs. It's just sad to me that you you guys aren't in in contact because Y both Helped each other a lot.

Yeah, no, I think we all we recognize that. I mean I would not be where I am if it wasn't for Stuart. Uh if it wasn't for Sting Uh if you're watching for Andy. And they wouldn't be where they are if it wasn't for me. So we have a history that is intertwined.

Alright, nineteen eighty five. You Leave Your relationship with A and M and you move to MCA records. And from what I gather from what you've written about

It it really you call this a missed opportunity that you really regret that you didn't figure out a way to continue working with A and M. in nineteen eighty five. What happened? The the reality is that sometimes you have a relationship That

Should be more important. Then Just what percentage you're making or what what money you're making, you know? When I'm

Move the label to M C A We had a better deal. We made more money per record. But we didn't have quite the same relationship with that company. In a way I look when I look back at it, I said, Well, I I think we probably should have stayed. I should have figured some way to s to remain there.

You wanted to merge with them, right? That was what you were hoping. Well, Jerry Moss, I wanted to merge with A and M and get shares in A and M. And Jerry Moss had said initially, yes, we'll do that. Then when I went in to finally make the deal, he said, Well, we can't give you shares in AM, but we'll buy IRS. And he quoted a number which was so low that I took offense and and stormed out, you know.

What I should have done is saying, look, no, we won't do it, but we would like to you know with Jerry Moss I had a relationship that w was worth something. And M receive the money. And it paid May I then paid the act.

And you know, each of us made a piece of it along the way. When we went to MCA, our piece was bigger. Yeah. But it was only bigger if you saw records. When we come back after the break.

How the deal with MCA takes some unexpected turns, and how Miles's ongoing relationship with Sting also goes into some uncharted territory, including a ride in the desert, in a Jaguar. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to how I built this. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So, in 1985, IRS Records signs a new distribution deal with MCA. A deal Miles thinks will be better than his previous deal with AM. But

Yeah. Doesn't quite turn out that way. One of the things that happened with this move away from AM to MCA was You had more freedom to do more things, but I guess it also meant

you increased your overhead,'cause you were a lean operation. I mean I think even in into the mid eighties you had like twelve employees. At IRS and you were bringing in millions of dollars. All of a sudden you did. double your team or triple your team. And I guess it really started to weigh on your on the business, right? It started to really

eat into your ability to run an efficient business to the point where It wasn't looking as as profitable as it had been by eighty seven, eighty eight, eighty nine. Well, the the reality is that we were making more per record. But we needed to make more per record. Yeah.

And we needed more records. And unless the company we were being distributed by really rolled up the shirt sleeves and helped us. And we had the hits that we needed to pay for everything. We would be short of money. Yeah.

One we were having we were facing more competition. Two My staff was beginning to want bonuses and increases in salary and they were beginning offers. And Three, we were not getting the same support from

our company doing the distribution as we had from A and M records. So y you you know, your overhead goes up, your the pressures on you go up, you start signing acts But maybe you would not have signed had you been under less pressure. Yeah. But now you needed the sales.

So sometimes you're telling yourself, Well I don't really love this act, but they're gonna sell records, so I better sign'em. 'Cause I need the money. And when that starts happening

you kind of lose the the idea that you started with. You know, it's interesting, a couple years ago we interviewed the founders of Sub Pop. Um and They were talking about how, you know, once Nirvana just like once the the single Smells Like Teen Spirit just went crazy.

every record label just converged on Seattle. And it became hard for labels like them to sign people because there was so much competition and there was so much money thrown it. acts that none of us have ever heard of because they never went anywhere. Did it become harder for you To sign acts over time because of the competition? Yes.

That is exactly what happened to IRS records. Which meant that the money I had to offer to sign the act had to increase, which meant the risks increased. And I I think in the end it finally killed IRS. And in the end you say killed IRS. You w you were sold you sold. EMI.

In nineteen ninety four they bought. Estimated to be about twenty million dollars. I mean sounds like a good outcome. Was that a good outcome for you? Yeah, it was a good outcome. But You know, was it the outcome that I expected in the beginning? No. You know, would I have liked IRS to build and become a

Hundred million, two hundred million, three yeah. But Those days had passed. Right. So I and IRS was essentially shuttered by EMI two years later, with a uh a few other labels. Yeah.

By that point were you just detached from it, that it was not you had no emotional connection to it at that point anymore? No, you you have an emotional attachment, but you also have to be realistic is that Some of your people had gone to different companies. Yeah. Some of the acts had left. R M left. Uh the go go's broke up. Uh

You know, so it changes. And you know, you have to adapt with it. The police broke up after a period of time. You know, you're working with Sting, you know, you're working with So things change. In some ways you're in control of it, in some ways you're not. Was it your I mean?

After you sold EMI, I mean you continued to manage Sting, you managed him, I think, until two thousand one. And then you would go on to found And create other record labels. A lot of your focus was on Royal music and also some of the acts he'd worked with in the past. Um

I mean, you never had any intention of just like taking the twenty million and retiring. This sounds to me like This was the next chapter. You were gonna start Something new for sure. Uh what was I gonna do? Just stop?

Yeah. No, I mean But Uh you know, as I said earlier on, one of the rules I had always followed was that you you have to be able to afford something. Yeah. So Which acts were affordable. They were ones where

Other labels had passed over them. They were acts that you know people had thought, Well, maybe their day is over. Therefore their price would drop. World music was not considered a big music. You know, acts that that that saying in foreign language we're not doing well in America. So you could pick up a lot of these acts for very little money.

So Yeah, a lot of the acts that I would find later on in life. Were acts that were Priced right. Miles, um, as you you know, sort of through the nineties you continue to manage staying

And sort of Shepherded. You know, him through his line. Really, I think one of his last major Hits, which was Desert Rose.

Tell me about Why that relationship ended. Well you know What do you remember about that? Well, you know, it was funny that

Um I have very fond memories of Sting. But I think he was under pressures as well. I remember getting phone calls from other managers saying, Well I'll bet it's the wife, isn't it? You know, I was located in Los Angeles now.

I was married, I had kids, and He's located in in Italy or New York. Um There was no real

reason for us to separate other than the fact, well, you know, we'd been together for twenty five years and Maybe it's time, you know. I think Sting had was said, Well I've set miles free. But from my standpoint

I have no ill feelings whatsoever. W one of the things that you you did with him, which I I read about and I thought was so interesting was um He had the song Desert Rose that was a It was a song that he did with um what's the name of the the singer. She mami, right. And and so it's in Arabic and it's in English. It's a beautiful song. And um And that was really it was a hit for Sting. I think it was his last really major hit.

And that song in that video for that song. Sting is you know, is in a car driving to the desert. The car happens to be a jaguar. And apparently you contacted Jaguar. before this song was released and you said hey

Do you guys want to collaborate? and push this song out. Right. And so it was really that Jaguar commercial. That made that song huge. Well Again, it was a situation where

We put out the album. We put out the single Brand New Day and it did reasonably well. So I would go to the record company and say, Okay, well We've done okay with the first single. Let's go to the second single. It's got Desert Rose. And the label.

said well no, it's not a single because the f opening voice on it is not in English. But Steng believed in the song. I believed in the song. And The Europeans said, Well, we'll put the single out, but we have to have a video.

So We were given a fairly limited budget. We got a director involved and he decided on a Jaguar because it sort of looked like an English car and Sting's English and It was a simple thing, staying in shabami in this car, driving to Las Vegas, singing this song. The video goes out.

I'm looking at the video with Stang. And I'm looking at this car driving across the desert and them singing desert rows, I'm thinking to myself, wow, that's a pretty nice car. And I realize as I'm watching the video But we made a car commercial. And I'm thinking, well

I'm gonna find out who the advertising agency is for Jaguar and see if I can get them to do something. Yeah. So the next day I call a friend of mine who was at one of the advertising agencies. And they say well, Jaguar is with Ogle be in Mather. So call him up. So I call up this guy who must have thought Who is this idiot? I said, look, hi, my name is Miles Copeland, I manage thing.

That we used your Jaguar car. In a commercial of Sting's new album. And I'm gonna send you a copy of it to see what you think. Yeah.

Well three or four days later I get a phone call. We've seen the video. Uh we we we'd love to do something, you know. And I said, Okay, here's the deal. Your car looks fantastic. I have a problem.

Selling the single. Now if you make a ad that looks like it's selling the single I'm gonna give you the video for free. Hm. So

Then comes the Team to New York to show us what they've done. It's a ad, so it shows the sting and Shimami singing a song and the c drag girl and at the very end it says Desert Rose from the new Sting album brand new day. Yeah.

And The day earlier I had asked Bjagmore what they were gonna spend. On

So they gave me the advertising schedule. 18 million dollars. Wow. Including

An ad on the Super Bowl. And all they did was they just recut the video, that's all they did? They recut the video. So that it looked like A commercial for Sting's record. I then go to the record company and I say, Look

I've Given the video to Jaguar and they looked at me like you Idiot! You're supposed to get money from him! And I said, Okay.

If you can match this ad budget I'll go back to Jaguar and ask for money. And I threw down to the marketing director the ad Schedule. eighteen million doll the guy looks at it, his jaw drops to the floor.

He had never seen a TV advertising campaign as big as that. It's just incredible. So so when that ad came out What happened? How did people react? So When the ad came out

The record company still hadn't released a single in America. Fans started phoning up the radio station saying, Uh Why aren't you playing the new Sting single? And the radio stations would go like what Sting Single? Uh the the one with the you know, Sting and the Jaguar and the

Desert and So A and M, which is now universal. Yeah. Rush out the single. It gets a hundred and forty top forty stations. Goes to number ten in the charts.

It was The most successful tie in Ever Between a product line And an artist record.

And from now on, nobody would say Which they did say to me. Well Sting selling a song for a commercial. He's selling out. Right. Well That ended with that song.

And Sting was fine with it. He didn't care. STIM! Wanted that song out. So he was d he's like however it happens, I don't care. Yeah.

You know, Obviously there's so much you've done in your Life and career and that's too much for us to to focus on in you know we can't talk about every single twist and turn. You'd you tried film companies, you've tried a bunch of different things, you've done management companies. But I'm curious about something

How did you know, or and and even now How did you know who to sign? I mean You know, you you are A music fan like anyone else.

And maybe your music taste is a bit better than other people, but Still you're gonna You know, there's no way you can Any single person can have you know a perfect hit rate or even a

a better than fifty percent hit rate. So how did you know when you saw an act that you were like, I wanna sign them. I I had a very simple rule. Do I like it? If I like it.

All I have to do is find enough people who are like me that also will like the act. Yeah. And if the price was right. You know, if I could hear an act. Like in the case of the B fifty twos. I wanted to sign the B fifty twos. Yeah. So I went to Jerry Moss.

He wouldn't give me the money. So I didn't sign the B fifty twos. 'Cause I didn't have the money. But I loved them and I thought they were great. But there were other acts that I did sign.

That I thought were great. That I did have the money for. Uh so that was my rule. The reality is that sometimes your own gut is your best judgment. You know, also curious, as you

approach eighty, right? You're a couple years away from from being eighty. Yeah. You've a lot of perspective. You've lived you know, a life that's given you a lot of perspective. One thing that surprised me a little bit, and I I'd love to hear you In your book you basically say that you assume

the worst of people, nor that's your default. That you assume People are not good. You kind of Always or generally expect things to go bad. Which allows you to be

pleasantly surprised when it goes good. So can you unpack that? Kind of philosophy around Around that outlook for me. Well, I you know, I say that partly as a joke, but the reality is it's true, you know.

If you constantly look for good, you're gonna find bad. If you know that bad is gonna be there. And you find good, well then you're pleasantly surprised, you know. When when money is thrown at something It causes dislocations, you know, and sometimes the people with the best intentions do the stupidest things. Yeah.

You know, it's not a perfect business. Human beings are not perfect. So I've always had the view that, you know Don't be naive. That's not to say that, you know, I I just I assume everybody is a

Son of a bitch from day one. No, that's not true, but You have to accept the fact that, you know, not everything is gonna work out. And I think If you approach life thinking that everything's gonna work out You're gonna fail.

And I think you have to approach it with a standpoint look, things are gonna get screwed up. But you've got to keep hammering it away at it one way or another. And in that way you'll succeed. Is something else you wrote in your book, which as you described You're right, I could think that IRS records was a very

Unlucky. Record label. Given. All the acts I worked with. What do you mean by that? Well,

You know, when you look at the you know, the record contracts, you know, people always say, Well, you know, you sign acts to five album deals and seven album deals and this and that and And and or aren't the record companies really bad and they aren't they making all the real money, you know. Well, I I look at IRS records and say, How many acts Ever got to five records. Only one!

It was R E M. Mm. Acts broke up after the first record. After the second record. Uh we had a couple acts that got to the third record, the go goes, for example.

Fine yon cannibals. Broke up. After the second record, which reached number one in the US charts. Yeah. They never made another record. So you think, Well, wait a minute.

In a perfect world, if you'd had a number one record, which was your second album, you would think you would at least go to album three or four or something, you know. So I I said that Iris Records was unlucky in that respect and that we had one act that actually went the distance. And you think of acts like the Moody Blues and these and that they're still putting out records, you know.

The grateful dead. You know, a lot of these acts are still doing things, you know. Uh a lot of the punk bands have disappeared. Um, you know, you mentioned IRS as an unlucky label, but I wonder when you Think back on your career.

And you know, everything that that happened. from Beirut basically, you know, guy who grew up in Beirut and then he became this major label guy and founded several labels and introduce these massive bands. You know, if you think about the eighties, right? the bands that you signed and that you

put out into the world had a massive global cultural impact. It's a pretty big a accomplishment. Do you attribute Your success to the hard work you put in, or do you think there was some luck involved as well?

I think that no matter who you are There's always an element of luck. You know, are you at the right place at the right time? Do you make one decision that really works? Uh and uh my title of my memoir was you know, Two Steps Forward, One Step Back, My Life in the Music Business was really You know, you're gonna make mistakes.

And you have to accept the fact that you're gonna make mistakes. And that's part of it. So you know, I I would say overall, y yeah. Was I personally lucky? Yeah. I I I have to say I was lucky. Did I have things that I say were unlucky? Yeah. But you can't dwell on those things, you know.

I have to say well Overall. I did fine. Yeah. What's one song that should have been a hit that wasn't a hit? Let's make it a hit now.

Oh I Now you're now you're pushing. I I'd have to go through and there were there were probably many, many of'em, but but uh I I would rather not say. But sometimes I I'll go to a restaurant and And I'll

be you know eating and I'll hear four or five songs come across the radio and I think, Wait a minute, I was involved in every one of those songs, you know? Yeah. And at those are moments that I think, well You know, I did have some significance after all. That's Miles Copeland, founder of IRS Records. And

Yeah, I get why he didn't want to choose just one song that could have been a hit, but if I may, I think there could be a case made for going down to Liverpool by the Bengals. Check it out, it's a great song. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you want to contact the team, our email address is hibt at id.wonder.com. On Twitter, you can follow us at how I built this and mine is at guy. On Instagram, we're at how I built this and I'm at guy.Roz. This episode was produced by Casey Herman, with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Sam Paulson. Our production staff also includes JC Howard, Liz Metzger, Carrie Thompson, Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, Chris Massini, and Carla Estevez. Our intern is Susanna Brown. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. to how I built this.

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