Uncle Nearest Premium Whiskey: Fawn Weaver

If you walk into any type of liquor store, if you walk into any restaurant, any back bar, and you ask them a very simple question. Tell me what whiskier bourbon is on your back bar that represents someone who is not a white male. and just wait. Wow. White males represent thirty percent of this country and a hundred percent.

of the whiskeys up until Uncle nearest. One hundred percent Ramen PR is how I built this. show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements.

Don't I'm Guy Raz and on the show today, how Fawn Weaver stumbled onto a piece of southern history that she couldn't forget and built a brand around it. Uncle Nearest Premium Whiskey. One of the fastest growing whiskey brands. In the country.

This is not a business show. Or at least I don't think of it that way. The show Is about stories.

It just so happens that Every business is a story. На think about that for a moment. It may not make immediate sense. After all, a business is about selling a product or a service in exchange for money or goods. But a business, especially a consumer-facing business, Is also about the question. Why?

Why did you decide to pursue this idea? Why do you think the world needs to hear about it? Why does it add value to someone's life? In each of these answers. It's a story.

It's what connects you and me and everyone out there to the thing you're building. So how is it that Fawn Weaver, best known for her books on marriage, is now the founder of one of the fastest growing whiskey brands in the US. How is it that Fawn, a black woman, with no background in distilling, managed to break into a largely white male dominated industry, spirits,

And win every conceivable award for her product. And how did she do all of this? In just five years. Now That's a story. And it actually begins more than a hundred and fifty years ago.

In Lynchburg, Tennessee. A young apprentice who worked in a whiskey distillery named Jack Daniel. met a master distiller named Nearest Green. Everyone called him Uncle Nearest, but Nearest was a black man.

formally enslaved. And it was Nerist who took young Jack under his wing and show him how to distill Tennessee whiskey. And of course, out of that relationship, came one of the best known whiskey brands in the world. Jack Daniels But only a few people knew the name of the man who had helped it come about.

Now, Fawn Weaver first heard about this story when she read an article in the New York Times several years ago. It intrigued her so much, she decided to investigate it more deeply. After all, she was already a published author, and she thought Maybe there's a book to be written, or even a movie. Yeah.

But on a whim. She ended up buying an old farm in Lynchburg. the farm where Uncle Nearest had taught Daniel how to distill. And eventually, she decided to distill her own brand of whiskey. She would call it Uncle Nearest.

And today, it's one of the very few independently owned whiskey brands in America. And as I mentioned earlier, one of the fastest growing. But the journey to building her brand was filled with landmines. For starters, Vaughn had to convince investors that the Jack Daniels brand wouldn't try and quash her idea. And then she had to figure out how to get her bottles on the shelves of liquor stores across the country. Not an easy task when virtually every major spirit brand is owned by one of the five big multinational liquor companies.

But once you understand Fon's story. it becomes clear that nothing was gonna stand in her way. Fawn grew up in Pasadena, California. Her dad was a producer and songwriter. From Motown Records.

So he was one of the very first hit makers for Motown. Wow. He was there from the beginning, so He's credited with Diana Ross and the Supremes and the Temptations and the Four Tops and Michael Jackson and and just really from the beginning, Smokey Robinson, then when Stevie came in, and and so that was sort of his world and in seventy. Five. I believe it was either while my mother was pregnant with me or shortly before.

My father decided not to sign another contract with. Motown. Now, understanding the the picture is my dad is in this huge house on the top of Hollywood Hill, all the fancy cars, everybody would come to the parties, everybody would come to the parties that he threw. And he decides that he really truly does believe God is calling him to move away from Motown and to move away from that

industry and to go into ministry. Well. And so I'm born into a period of transition. When he is transitioning. from being a songwriter. And I should mention from what I understand. He co wrote, he's a co writer and he's credited.

on the songs Castles in the Sand, the Stevie Wonder song. Love child by the Supremes. I mean major major hit. Yeah. For Motown. Absolutely, absolutely. He was a really, really, really big deal. Producer, top of his game and

He decided to completely leave. No back up plan and really Not enough money in the bank. to be able to continue to live the life he was living yeah for very long. when you're living a lifestyle like he was big glass house at the top of Hollywood Hills

That consumption rate. That consumption rate is really, really high. And so they had to downsize. They had to to downgrade. I think that there was a part of him that did not want people to know. That there were financial challenges. And so we lived in a world that was a bit split.

Uh, but it was very interesting growing up in this dynamic because you had all of these celebrities coming. Everybody in Motown uh my father became their pastors of sort. So he goes into the ministry But he still begins to bring everyone with him. So Smokey and Stevie and and uh Eddie Kendricks and all these different folks. are at the house all the time. I mean was that was like like

all these celebrities would be coming in and out'cause your dad basically became Their pastor. They yeah, and it so for all of them, they were auntie and uncle. To me, all of them. And that's the world that I knew. But I didn't know my father as Any sort of celebrity. Yeah. And I actually didn't know these people as celebrities. Right. I knew these people as

normal people with normal problems coming into our home to be ministered to. More than anything. That's what I knew when I grew up. I only knew him. As a minister. And what was your relationship like with your mom and dad? Were they strict? Were they um were they very contentious. Very contentious.

m my mom and I we can laugh about it now, but it wasn't funny back then is I'd say that we were we were their pastors' guinea pigs because anything that the pastor or the leadership of the church said, This is how you should raise your children, they did it and is the hot mess. So what did that mean For for you like as a teenager, you were really restricted in the restricted in everything. There was it was incredibly I mean, w we're Christian but could not wear pants as girls. So imagine me. as a teenager and it's winter time and I'm trying to explain why I'm in skirts. It was not a fun upbringing for me, for sure, and the way that I've been wired from day one, day one, is to challenge everything. I came out of the womb challenging everything. I came out of the womb saying no. You were you were a kid who clearly

We're just waiting for the moment when when you could leave and and from the time I was five I was trying to pack bags. Yeah. No doubt about it. I actually left home at 15. Wow. And my my mom said she she still remembers the day I walked down the driveway and she walked. watched me leaving with a backpack and uh a lunch pail in hand. And that was basically all I had was a backpack and a lunch pail. And I was like I'm out of here. And and so it wasn't a big blowout fight or anything of that nature. I just said this this won't work for me. How long were you away? For the rest of my life. Mm. Do you think from your parents perspective They kind of

Wrote you off as our lost child. At that time. I do. I do. I don't think that they loved me any less. Right. I I don't think that they ever stopped loving me. But

I think it's difficult not to write. a child off who has made it very, very clear they don't want to be parented. Wow. Mm. I I don't know. I've actually never had a conversation with them about it because the one thing about how I am wired and it's I think probably one of my greatest strengths Is I don't go backwards.

So After leaving home, I I I guess you started living independently and and even spent a few years in um in in shelters and in homeless shelters, right? I did. I went to a place called Covenant House. It's uh a homeless shelter for adults in

Hollywood. And it was probably one of the m most important moments. of my life because I'd always been independent.

And at Covenant House, the way that they have it set up, it's absolutely brilliant. I think it's one of the most amazing transition places that has ever been created for for people that were in situations like mine. And they have counselors that are set up that basically you go out, you get a job, you come back, you bring the paychecks. They save all of your money for you. So you're not having to do any of that. You literally just turn over the the checks. They save it for you and then once you get to a certain amount and you can go out and get your own apartment, that's what you do.

Fine. I'm trying to wrap my head around this idea of that I mean because moving into a homeless shelter, you know, especially for a kid who had a home, right, where everything was provided for you Is a is a radical step to take even for teenager when you know

Let's be honest, our judgment is Is it's a little bit different when we're teenagers than it is When we're adults, but still a A radical move. Yeah, I think my my life has has been marked by radical decisions

I You know I look back at that time. And if I could do it all over again. I would have done it the exact same way.

And I gained A freedom by living in the homeless shelters. I thrived. In them.

And I think that is in part Not because there weren't rules and i I I love rules. I I live my life by rules, but I have to understand and agree with those rules. And the rules in the homeless shelters made complete sense to me. Hm. And I mean you obviously got

an incredible grounding there'cause I re I read that at like The age of eighteen, you You actually started your own business at eighteen? Yeah. Yeah. It it happened a little more serendipitous than that. I was an intern for an African American

PR firm in Los Angeles. The woman who owned it, Pat Tobin. very, very, very popular. Uh publicist and I don't even remember how I met her actually, but she brought me in. I was in as an intern. And

They were uh working on a bunch of a different accounts, and there were these two accounts. that they were working on And I had radically different ideas. about how to garner PR for these two particular

Companies. So the way they were thinking about PR is You send out a press release, and you see who picks it up, and you pitch the story. And I was looking at PR as something that was fully experiential, something that was literally interwoven. into other things.

So um now what they would call that is brand integration. But at the time that didn't really exist. And so, you know, brand placements and things of that nature, that wasn't something happening in the early nineties, but it was how I was looking at how you garner earned media. And so for these two accounts, I had come up with a plan, and it was so unfamiliar to the way that they did business, but the two clients absolutely loved

the pitch. And so uh Pat said run with it. You know, and and and keep in mind, so I I I'm about to turn forty-five and if you put side by side pictures up of me at eighteen and forty five, I do not look that which I'm very happy about now, but I I looked very mature. at that age so I would I did not come across an any way, shape, or form as an 18 year old. And after I successfully did a few of the integrations that I had suggested, both of the clients said to me individually, if you ever decide to start your own PR firm, we'll come with you. That's how it began. So I began at eighteen with two clients pay me five thousand dollars a month.

Well which that's not a lot of money now, but You know, for an eighteen year old that was pretty significant, right? Yeah. And so what kind of PR were you doing? I mean who who were your clients? Yeah, one w is a a painter by the name of Thomas Blackshire. And the other was a company called Daddy Long Legs. They did those dolls with the hanging legs.

And what would you do? Would you like call newspapers and magazines and trade publications and try to Place articles? I would do that, but I would also d um integrate it in events. And so I remember, for instance, with Thomas Blackshire, there was a a big Hollywood bowl event. That was going to be with a bunch of jazz artists. And remember, I knew all these people from growing up, right? The music world was very easy for me to touch.

And so I'd pick up the phone. And call them directly and say, Hey, this is this is what I'm doing. What are you thinking? And again People weren't getting paid for product placement. Right. At and that wasn't even a thing. So me going in and saying, Hey, can I place these products? They're like Sure. Where do you want to put'em? So you would you would just like place these dolls or the pa his paintings at events? Yeah, the sculptures, the paintings and and so for instance this Hollywood bowl event completely sold out

And um and it was just a bunch of incredible jazz artists and so throughout the venue there were things related and specifically where all the artists were the green room and And all of that, that's where it was being introduced. Well, the journalists and those those folks were coming in to interview. The artist will all around the room. Are things related to Thomas Blackshire. So that was naturally going to end up being a part of the story because it was everywhere. That was essentially my PR plan.

Well. Alright, so you're running this PR firm. for a few years. And and was it just you? Running it. No. So this is why my PR firm failed. It wasn't just me. So what I what I understood was, you know, how to get clients and how to do this integration and how to do all these things. What I did not understand, and I think this kind of comes back to what we were talking about before where there was you know, my father and and mother were majorly downgrading, but

didn't want anyone to know they were downgrading, so they still had this very big persona. Even though they didn't have a lot. Well, that was me in business. So I hired a ton of people. And uh and it and so I could have grown that thing Pretty big but where I got in trouble. Was this whole larger persona.

than what it was, and so I hired far too many people. for what was needed at that time and and ran out of money. No one really knew I was having my company was having these financial challenges. I knew that there was only a matter of time before it would fold, but nobody else really knew that. And let's just say I do business different now, by the way. So I think after about five years, few entertainment folded. It it and it basically folded because it you ran out of money. Oh yeah. It it was like a young a young girl figuring it out in real time.

But I mean you c clearly made some good contacts uh o over those years in in PR because I think you you were able to pivot uh into the restaurant business and and you y you're going to help launch A pretty high end restaurant called G. Garvin's, um and then And then you stayed in the industry for like like

Several years, right? Yeah. Meantime, dur around this time. Uh early two thousands. I think you met Keith Weaver, the m the man named eventually.

Mary. Um and the story I heard was that you met Him through His mom? His mother who owned a salon? A hair salon.

Yeah. I was going to her and you know the thing that happened in in a lot of African American hair salons and barbershops is there's just a lot talk. There were two conversations in in the in the hair salon and there were probably about twenty stylists. It was either gossip Or it was Keith's mother talking about how amazing her son is. These were the two conversations going on and There was one particular week that I went in and I would go in weekly to get my hair done.

And she said, You know. I've been watching you all these weeks coming here and And it's amazing that you're so young and you're so smart and you're so business minded. And she literally re puts her head on over mine and says You have to meet my son. And I very quickly pivoted the conversation.

But after that moment she was relentless. And at the time he was a vice president for Sony Pictures and for She's like my son's present Sony pictures. I want you to meet him. Yeah. Yeah. And was it an instant match when you met? Immediately. Wow. So I get this phone call on myself. And I just started laughing and I said, This must be the second coming. And he just fell out laughing immediately and he's like, You've been talking to my mother I said I have and so we we started off with a great deal of laughter.

And so we're getting to the end of the conversation, and and I had had a an ongoing prayer with God that I I still have to this day that I call my box me in prayer And I'll use it for large decisions even for this day, which is, you know, if this is not for me, close this door in a way that I can't even open. And if it is for me, open the door in in a way that no man can close. And so then it makes it a little easy for me to make decisions. I mean it's a scary prayer. To pray because you're now taking yourself out of it, but that That was my prayer then, it still is my prayer on big decisions now. And so we finally

met for the first time. May ninth, two thousand and three, he proposed on September sixth. We were married on December twenty seventh, same year. Wow. I think around this time um you you kind of also pivoted

uh once again in your career, um you've worked at a as a manager Uh in the hotel industry at some some pretty top hotels. And then I think around twenty ten, um You started to write as a as a freelance writer and it really came out of a a I guess a blog you started m maybe on a whim, uh which is called Happy Wives Club. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't even know it was a blog, but yes. I called it just a website'cause I wasn't actually blogging on it.

I introduced who I was. And said, I wanna find a million women around the world who are just like me, who are not represented in the media, who are not represented, whose marriage it doesn't look anything like Desperate House Rives, Real Housewives, or all of these books that are now popping up that are, you know, really berating men and And so I I said, I know that there are other wives out there like me who have amazing husbands who support them, who love them, who are not caricatures And I said, I'm going to start a club for women like me and I'm gonna call it and just like literally paused for a second and I said, I know what I'm gonna call it. I'm gonna call it the Happy Wives Club. And so I emailed it to one of my sisters and three of my girlfriends who I knew had similar marriages, and then they sent it out. And within four weeks w I had people who had signed up from twenty different countries. So you essentially become

A writer. with this blog and At some point, clearly it attracts the attention of a literary agent or publisher because someone asks you to write a book. About the secrets to great marriage. Yeah, the irony is is I had always written

writing for me is cathartic to this day. The Happy Wise Club wasn't actually Initially anywhere on my radar in terms of writing about it. And but when they made the suggestion, I told my literary agent, I said, Well I've always wanted to travel the world. So how about I go to all seven continents and I interview couples happily married twenty five years or more and deduce the common denominator. So

That began my journey of finding couples. And so I would reach into people that I knew that lived in other countries and ask that exact same question and they would always point me to that one couple in the community. that everyone knows is a true, true happily married. It's not for the sh it's not for well, at that time there wasn't even really Instagram, so it wasn't for the Graham. Like they're And and I I did. I went and I I traveled I traveled the world.

So I mean you have this phase in your In your life where you had had a a range of different experiences And have these.

Best selling books and The the stor f from what I understand the story is and and it's Mm more or less. you know, probably an oversimplification, but you're on vacation. In Asia.

You read an article in the New York Times about Jack Daniels, the whiskey brand, that they discovered or found out or or or disclosed that Actually Jack Daniel.

The person who is the distiller. learned how to make whiskey from a black man. named Nearest Green or or Uncle Nearest as he was known. Uh, what do you remember thinking after you read that article? I remember first and foremost the photo. So what I see is this photo of of Jack Daniel.

And I a lot of people saw it and and immediately began wondering who is this black man to the right. of Jack, but w what I saw when I saw that photo was something a little different. Which was Jack Daniel, the most famous whiskey maker of all time.

Was taking a foto with his team. And he had ceded the center position to the black man. That's what you notice immediately. Immediately because everyone else around Jack is white. This was his his leadership team, if you will.

And and the question was is this Nearest Green, the story that had been floating around Lynchburg, Tennessee for so long. About this African American formerly enslaved man who was the teacher. Of Jack Daniel, is this him? That was the question that people were asking, but The headline was

Jack Daniels embraces a hidden ingredient. help from a slave. And I remember my eyes got wide as saucer's, and I know that because Keith sitting across from me panics, and I literally flip The paper around to him, and he's like, You've got to be kidding. Yeah. And you know, for for us as African Americans until that point in our lives.

There was no бренд. That was like a quintessential American brand that was known around the world. That was able toбі pinpointed Ту африкан Американ бингер.

in the beginning. Yeah. And that that newspaper article Flipped everything. Upside down because I read it.

And thought How is it possible? That this Black man could have been so important, and none of us No about it. So were you just just

As an aside, were you at that point A whiskey drinker? Like'cause there are people who are super into whiskey as there are people who are super into wine and beer, like was whiskey a The thing for you? Whisky was my drink of choice. Specifically bourbon, uh high proof and neat. So this article spoke to you on multiple levels, not just the story of a of a black man who essentially invented Jack Daniels, but but as a whiskey drinker. Yeah, it speaks to me not because it was whiskey. It speaks to me because it was a ubiquitous

American brand known around the world. That it was very possible. That A black man was at the very beginning of it. Right. And so I begin.

looking into the story even more. And I got on Amazon and I ordered Jack Daniels Legacy. It was a biography by a local journalist out of Tuscaloosa, Alabama, who goes to Lynchburg, Tennessee to write the authoritative biography on the most famous whiskey maker in the world. And very early on into the book.

It introduces this white preacher en and distiller who Jack came to work. for him as a chore boy. And Nears Green was working the still at that time. This preacher, according to this biography says that he introduces Jack to to Niris by saying, This is Uncle Nearis, he's the best whiskey maker that I know of.

And then Every page it was either Nears Green or his sons Eli Green and George Green. I mean they were very, very prominent. In terms of mentions in this book, and they were mentioned more times than Jack's own family. So this was known. This was known for a long time. Oh, it was well known. Yeah, yeah. This was not a this was it's it's the worst kept secret if it was supposed it was never supposed to be a secret. And that's what I realized when I read His biography is is

At that time, you know what the internet does. They take an article, they turn the headline into clickbait, and then everybody makes an assumption. Yeah. So all around the internet at that time quickly determined that Jack was the slave owner that he stole the recipe hid nearest and all these other things. Well I'm reading this biography and going, not a chance because I believed that it was a story of love, honor, and respect. And it really does spark something.

In you to the point where A few months later you decide Maybe there's a book here. Like maybe I can Two

visit like the source of this to go to Lynchburg, Tennessee. Yeah. This was five years ago, I think, roughly five years ago. It was five years ago yesterday. Five years ago yesterday. And my poor husband, every time I have an idea for what I want to do for my birthday, he's like, Oh boy, I'm gonna brace myself. And and for that year, what I wanted for my 40th birthday was to go dive into this story. He calls it my my rabbit holes. And so this to him was a rabbit hole that we were just gonna go into for four days, but we would come back out. And maybe it would result in in in in more thinking about a book or a film or maybe not. But the idea was you would go down to Lynchburg And just kinda check it out from what I understand.

Um Keith didn't want to go in part'cause it the the name Lynch is in Lynchburg and obviously yes. I mean and and understandably. Understandably. So he did not want to go to a town with Lynch in the name as a California boy and who's African American, that is not what he would do intentionally, not in the South, but He did go and And we were there for a very short period of time where

you know, talk about a life of serendipitous things and just sort of following those paths. We were in the library top of the morning and we're just we're trying to find anything on this story and and we can't find anything. And so I I asked the ass the assistant librarian comes over and asks how she can help and I told her what we were looking to do and she said, Well let me go call my director and she calls the director. Well long story short, the director then calls who is Jack's eldest descendant. And if a if you think about it, and I understand it as well. This is a very small town.

Their family has officially been drug through the mud because people concluded that they were slave owners and hid the original recipe maker and all the rest of this stuff. And so. Jack's eldest descendant, she walked through the door. a of the library and When I looked at her.

I could You know, go after her family's name. When you've Maybe yeah. A black couple, uh author and a movie person from LA comes to Lynchburg, Tennessee.

To do research on the story that everybody online has already made a determination about. Cut and dry story. Had a slave. forced this man to make whiskey and then stole the recipe and then took credit for it. That was the narrative. Exactly. And she was the narrative.

that you are going to further, you know, pursue that narrative. Yeah, I would imagine so. I would have been under that impression as well. But but actually the the narrative that that you had learned was very different. That Did not own slaves that

Uh nearest was a mentor to him, but Yeah. And that the Daniel family actually acknowledged that, that they credited nearest for his role as as a whiskey maker. Yeah. And I said to her

I need you to understand I am not here to harm your family's legacy. Mm. I am here because I believe that this is actually a story of love, honor, and respect. And I think that social media has this wrong. I think media has it wrong. I think that there was a relationship here that deserves to be explored.

And shared. I write stories on love. And that Is the story I'm here to find. And she said, Well, in that case

I want to help you. And she pulls out her cell phone and she gives me names and numbers to nearest green's descendants. Wow. They all grew up together. They were friends. They ate around the same dinner table.

And they were still there in Lynchburg, Tennessee. They were also there. They're all there. And while you're there, you find out. That actually Somebody says oh.

By the way, th the original distillery where the two of them made whiskey Uh you should go check it out. And I think it's for sale. It was her that told me. So we're in the library. We were not there very long. And she said, Hey, you know that book that brought you here that farm where Jack grew up and all this stuff happened in the book.

It's for sale. And her cousin then calls me about an hour and a half later, maybe two hours later. And says you met my cousin at the library. She says you want to go see the Dan Call Farm. I'm a realtor. I can take you. Would you like me to take you tomorrow? Well. And so I've not spoken to anyone from Nears' family, but have now had contact with two people from Jack's family and I've only been there a few hours. So all right, so you go and see it and what do you make of it? I mean was it in disrepair? Was it was it an old Well you drive up to this farm

And there's cows. Everywhere. So the current owners that had purchased it in the early sixties, they were dairy farmers. And sold the whole property. We're

cows and and different structures to maintain this dairy farm. And so you you go through all of this and then you finally kinda get up the hill a little bit. And I will say that Keith and I were not through. The door for longer than five minutes before we looked at each other and said we're buying this place. When we come back in just a moment, how Fawn realizes that the

Best way to honor the story of nearest green is not with a book. But with a bottle, actually many bottles. of Tennessee Whiskey. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening. how I built this. Welcome back to how I built this, I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2016, and Fawn Weaver and her husband Keith have made a huge decision.

To buy and restore the three hundred acre farm we're nearest green to Jack Daniel. How to make whiskey. The most Important part. Зі секен флор.

Was an absolute time capsule. So the room where Jack stayed in, there was walls with barrel stencils. that you could still very visibly read And so it was so easy for us to go, we don't know what we're gonna do with this, but this is a piece of American history, and we're going to restore it and figure it out later. This was Jack Daniels. This was his home, this was his farm.

This was his yeah, this is where he worked as a chore boy and where he lived with the other boys. So in your mind at that when you made the offer on the property, it sounds like Maybe in your mind you were thinking, this will be part of the book. You know, the part of the book's story will be me buying this place and restoring this amazing Place and telling the story of Uncle Nearest and maybe there'll be a film.

I I wish I could tell you I had that kind of foresight. I looked at that really truly purely as a as a real estate Plan. And that we could restore this property and put this on the National Historic Registry. Like there was a lot there But

maybe a couple days later is when What came to mind is that I could do my research. From there. You could actually live there and be steeped in that place.

Exactly. And my thought process was When I walk the ground of of plantations. I I it's very diff it's very rare for me to go onto a plantation because I walk the grounds and I can literally feel the spirit. of those harmed on those plantation grounds, but when I walked across This farm the Dan Call farm.

I got no such feeling. It was Absolute and complete peace. And so I did the research from there. The story would truly come alive because I would be among their spirits. Dan Call, we should mention was the he was a preacher and a distiller. This was the guy that Jack Daniel went to work for originally.

Yeah, his and and the irony is is both the church and the distillery were on his property. And his distillery and his church were on the furthest points. Uh um for for the most part. And so he lived a world in which these two were very separate. And then he married a woman who was a teetotaler. who wanted nothing to do with him having a distillery. So she did not want him to be doing that. And so The reason why Nears Green is credited as the first known African American master distiller is because he fully turned over the steel.

to Niris, but I think that had everything to do with the fact that his church and his wife were really pushing against him having it all together. This is twenty sixteen when you buy the place. You permanently Relocate. to to Tennessee from LA. Did any of your friends say like what are you guys doing? What are you are you nuts?

No, because it was so remarkable the way things Unfolded. The the the realtor who helped us So this is, you know, Jack's lineage. As it turns out, as we

continue doing the the research and I'm bringing my research into the property she comes to me and and she says, Hey, you know, I know you are your focus on a book and a movie, but If you ever decide to honor nearest with a bottle, I'll come out of retirement to make sure you get it right. У чи возінь бізнес ферті ванзiller, чирський операцій. the just the serendipitous nature of every aspect and element.

That has happened, you could not. Convince me That this is completely natural. that there's I've been convinced from very early on that there was something supernatural at play here. And so when I would share With our friends and family, the different things that had happened since we arrived in Lynchburg, no one had any question whatsoever that.

We were to complete this mission. No one. Okay. Fully in Tennessee. Meantime you're learning all these

new things through your research about Uncle Neerist and about his legacy. And it's clear. You are You're not quite sure how, but you are going to help to preserve his legacy somehow and celebrate it. One of the things that you

decided to do was to actually Produce a commemorative bottle of whiskey. That's what it was supposed to be. Was it Was a singular commemorative bottle. That's what it was supposed to be. Well how did that come about? I had looked into it and had frankly concluded that it was going to cost way too much money. And it was going to be an absolute headache to try to do a whiskey brand.

because of how costly it was going to be to do it. And so the idea of having to go out and to raise money from people, I was not excited about. I hadn't raised money in a very long time. I mean, how much was it gonna cost you to just make five hundred commemorative bottles or something? Well originally with the commemorative bottles. you know, maybe a million or so dollars because it's not just a matter of making the bottles. You'd also still have to market it.

This is a it's a very crowded field. So distributors are not going to pick you up if you cannot show that you have an ability to get people to buy it. Yeah. That means that you have to show them a marketing plan and you have to show them the money you're gonna put behind the marketing plan. You we're we're a three tier system, the alcohol business is, which means that You can't get it to the shelves without a distributor. Even the stuff that people order online, whether it's reserve bar or any of the other ones, they're still going through a distributor. Yeah. So if no distributor will pick you up, you don't have a product to sell. It sounds like uh making a commemorative bottle is is a waste of time because nobody's gonna

distribute something that's never gonna come out again. Exactly. Hence why I moved away from the idea altogether is because To do it. is to basically set yourself up for failure. Right. You couldn't just make a one off. It's impossible to do it. Which is interesting'cause you you can do that with wine. You know, I've I know people who who buy some wine and put it in you know bottles and then hand it to friends of theirs for for gifts. Like in it's their own wine. Y yeah, but wine is very different. Their their tiered system is different. So for instance, wineries can ship to end users. Alcohol business cannot. Exactly. I could be a a winery in Napa and have a

You know, a club in which I've got thousands and thousands of people That get wine, that's not legal for spirits. Right. And so you have to be able to get on shelf space. And so y y understanding that we knew we would have to be on shelves and that means a distributor would have to pick us up and that means that we would have to show a distributor two things. One, we have enough product to keep it stocked. Yep. Which means that we were gonna have to spend a lot of money on aged whiskey. And the second thing is that we were gonna have enough money to put behind the marketing. Yeah. In order to get people to come into the store to buy.

And so in order to source the right kind of Of what we call juice, but really high premium whiskey, it was gonna be really difficult. So if you go to Scotland, Scotch is so easy because all the distilleries just kind of buy from each other, they blend it. Everybody sources it's not a big deal. America, we treat it a little differently, and so it was going to be so difficult and so expensive. Is that because existing distilleries will only work with specific Brands. Uh it's because we up until more recently, because we produce so little extra. In Scotland, the distilleries produce enough for themselves, but they also produce enough for a ton of others to be able to purchase from them. It's a part of their overall business model. Right. That's not our business model in America.

There's basically not enough to build. A major brand, and this this business is so expensive and so difficult. that if you can't build a large brand, you're basically just kind of waiting to die. That's that's The truth of it. And also, presumably.

Whiskey in America is dominated by just a few major multinational. Yes it is. Yes, it is. There are very, very, very, very few Small players.

And are the big brands, Jack Daniel, Jim Beam, I mean is that more or less true? Oh yeah, well I mean you have Jack Daniels owned by Brown Foreman, Beam is owned by Centauri, a Japanese company. You can kinda go down the list of every major Of every major American whiskey brand and I can tell you who owns them. Right. So like the Diagios and the Pernol Card. The Diagio's Sazeracs, L VMH, absolutely. They you have essentially five That own everything. So it's not like beer where you've got these kind of tiny microbreweries. In in spirits, there are very few Independent brands.

There are very few independent brands that make it. You have a lot that try. So at what point did you'cause it sounds like you had done a lot of research and you concluded that this was not a good business to get into? Not a good business plan at all. But clearly You made a ch you had a change of mind. So what was the change of mind? If you already determined this was a bad idea, what gave you the confidence to say, Well, maybe I should do this? So the way that it came about was one

was Sherry Moore, who is our director of whiskey operations, who was previously director of whiskey operations for Jack Daniel. Her saying She would come out of retirement to and she she was the real estate agent who who would offer to help you make w make the whiskey. Exactly. But I even told her I have no interest. But then I as a part of doing my interviews with nearest family, I interviewed close to a hundred

of Neris' descendants and spent time with them and And on one particular occasion, I went to interview a whole group of them, a a pretty large group of them in Nashville. They got together at their local church. And They shared with me what they knew. I shared what I knew. And at the end of it I asked w what was the one thing that

that they thought should happen to honor Their ancestor. And they kind of all looked around and so I had a really good idea that people had been talking amongst themselves, but no one was saying anything. And then one one person in the room, one of the family members raised His hand And he said, you know, we think Nears deserves to have his own bottle. His name should be on

a bottle and you could kinda see just the nodding that there was not just an agreement, but there was conversation that it happened. Previously. And I left out of that time. Keith was with me. We got into the car. It's pretty late and I called Sherry from the car.

And said, If you will come out of retirement, I will raise the money and we will make this happen. All right, so you start to raise the money. to Create a brand Mean

Um What Brown Foreman, which owns Jack Daniel, They presumably catch wind of your idea. They didn't catch wind. I invited them and told them. And what did they say? Because there was a risk that they could say, Wait a minute, that's our IP, you can't mess with this. Yeah, but it wasn't their IP. I had already I already had the trademarks.

So by the time I shared with them what I would be doing I made sure I had the trademark. Yeah. You see you were you were stealth. You were operating quietly. Had to.

And you came to them and you said, Look, I'm gonna make a whiskey here. And what was their response? Uh well the person who I told at at the time was the president of Jack Daniels and I could have pushed him over with a feather. He was just he was blown away by the fact That we had dan all this. So they could. destroy the brand before you even debut?

and very expensive.'Cause they could have said, Hey, that's our that's our story and that's our brand. Yeah, I I still would have won. That I'm not concerned about, but the thing is is that Would have cost me so much to win. That the question becomes Is it worth it?

And Do I want to lose all of the investors money in order to fight it? When we come back in just a moment. Hafan manages to launch Uncle Nere's Whiskey in the yard of a potential rival.

But then faces another hurdle. Being a woman of color in an industry Dominated. by white men.

Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening. to how I built this. Welcome back to how I built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2017, and Fonweaver is getting ready to launch a new whiskey brand in the name of Uncle Nearest Green, the man who helped Jack Daniel learn to make whiskey.

But Jack Daniels? Let us not forget is already an established brand with its own story to protect. So when Fawn goes to talk to the head of the company, she knows she has to tread lightly. When we began working on this

I knew That they could have one of two reactions, and one of those reactions could be to point every missile that they had in their arsenal. At me. And if they did that, I had to make sure that. If

The way that I would describe it. is if if we're going down, we're going down with a thud so large that everybody will know it happened. But did you get the impression that maybe they Might. Blow your up?

I didn't need to get the impression. They were very clear. Oh, what did they say? It was more of a they were going to protect their trademarks. Not a we're going to prevent you from doing it. I I think because the way that they had al always seen the story is it was A part of Jack's story.

And and so I think it was a little challenging for them to see Niris's story stand alone. And so it the question that they had was How can you even tell the story without including Jack? Which means that I would then be encroaching upon their trademarks. And so I was very clear In and that I knew exactly how to tell this story without ever touching their trademarks, and that's what we did.

So you actually I think On your website. The name Jack Daniel doesn't even exist. No, it doesn't. It never has.

Amazing. It never has. If you if the only time that Jack's name has ever been associated with our brand is if the story is being told historically in the price. Or it was told historically in the short film that we did with Jeffrey Wright, and even if you watch that film.

Take out the credits. The film is is a little more than ten minutes. Jack's name isn't mentioned until maybe minute ten. Yeah. And even then it's in passing. But from your perspective as a brand

Owner, manager, creator. Didn't matter because you didn't need the Jack Daniel Association. Correct. So they understood fair use, I understood fair use. And so we stayed

Fully within fair use. We have never, ever, ever not once. cross the line in terms of a of trademark. And and they have Uh they have done the same. But at the time in in twenty seventeen And did they send a cease and desist letter? Did they

No no no no. We had interesting conversations. But I mean for me, and I said it to them from day one. That Майжа And see menting near us legacy.

was about building up the legacy of one person. Without harming the legacy of another. And and so that was a tight rope that only I Had to balance on. And so I've always been very transparent with them. I've never asked permission.

Uh because well, the I don't have to But I've always been very transparent with them because I want for both of our brands and companies to continue to grow at astronomical rate. I want to see Jack's legacy to rise. Because the only reason we know of Neris' legacy versus all the other African Americans who

did work for sure so many of the the bourbon distilleries whose names we still don't know. The only reason who that we know the name Uncle Nearest, the only reason that nearest green distillery exists is Is because Jack Daniels family made sure nearest green would never be forgotten. That's the only reason. So Fine.

You I mean You are just a force of nature. You are unstoppable. You were gonna do this No matter what, and that's clear. But it doesn't mean it's easy, and it doesn't mean it's gonna be smooth sailing. And so twenty seventeen.

You have this business plan, you know you're gonna put it onto the world. You're gonna manufacture. But that means you don't have a a distillery yet. I mean you had to find, you know, distilleries and bottle manufacturers and people to make the labels and to pack the bottles and to put them in boxes and then to distribute them and This is an industry that Discussed.

totally dominated by a few major corporations and um there are not a whole lot of women and there are not a whole lot of black women in this industry. I mean I I'm have to imagine Іновець інтенціонал орнат. There's kind of a network of people who know each other and you know call Jim and How did you break into that? Without question.

There was a lot of blockage coming into it. But the way that I look at it is is it you just keep turning over every stone. Until You get it done. And so for me

It's not that I didn't have just a ton of hurdles and I am, you know, positive some traps set. But I was Абсолютлин. а най чулі трулі анстил болів that I had both Niris and Jack in my sales.

And so I would walk into situations with absolute abandon. believing Without question. That Naris and Jack both wanted this story to be told.

And they wanted nearest legacy to be cemented, and for whatever reason. I have the great honor of being the one who was chosen to do that. But still fun. I mean Th this all had to be challenging, right? I mean I mean I I read a story that uh

U certainly in the early days, you actually had Keith, your husband, pretend like he was the CEO of the company. Is that In order to get'cause you weren't getting callbacks, is that true? It wasn't just I wasn't getting callbacks, my entire team, my entire leadership team are women. And we were having a call one day and I realized that every single One of us had the same problem.

Which is whatever it was we needed. This is before the brand came out. We were trying to get things in place. The distributor that bottles, corks, things that that we have to have, things that you were talking about earlier All of these different things that we had to have to put this label out, no one was calling us back. Bottling partners, no one. And and so I I told Kate and Sherry, I said Let me test out a theory here.

And then I called Keith and I said, Babe, can you call all of these people? And tell them that Uncle Nairis is your company. And this is what all these things are what you are looking for. I want to see because this industry has never really had women. Own.

A spirit brand, specifically whisky, that really had not happened before. So is it just the fact that they're not used to this that they're not taking it seriously. And Keith called every single person on our collective list.

And he got through Either immediately When calling Or they called him back by the end of the day. He didn't have to wait twenty four hours to get in touch with any of those people that we had been trying to reach for three and four weeks.

Fun. I'm gonna confess that I'm not a whiskey expert in any way. I I love wine and so I know that a bit better, but How me understand what Tennessee whiskey is. Um what What makes it special.

The the thing I love about the thing I love about Timessey whiskey is Ітис дован спірит. that we can look at and say it was a process that came in with the enslaved people that made the difference. So Tennessee whiskey. is a straight bourbon whiskey. So that's where we should start. A lot of people get confused about this.

Tennessee whiskey is a bourbon at its core. And that means it's distilled from from grains, right? Yes, it's distilled from grain. It has to be cereal grains and it has to be at least fifty one percent corn. really truly bourbon can be made anywhere in America. It's not like champagne where it has to be made in a region or tequila that has to be made in Jalisco. It can be made anywhere in America, although I think ninety something percent of it comes out of Kentucky. Right. However, Tennessee whiskey can only be made in Tennessee. And the

Only difference other than geography, the only significant difference is the process that came in with the enslaved people, and that is taking a traditional bourbon distillate. And filtering it through sugar maple. Charcoal. It pulls out. conjuners, it pulls out fusel oils, it's basically natural carbon that is in the wood. And so if you if you use it just to filter, it it attaches itself to the conjunctor's fusel oils. Fusel oils is essentially what gives you headaches, gives you hangovers and things of that nature. So is is Tennessee whiskey

smoother like d does it not have that like burning sensation that you get it with with burning it just depends because because keep in mind there's so many elements Ah that go into it how much you char the barrels. is going to determine more. then that initial filtration, but also how you filter on the other side of it after it's age is also going to have a lot to do with it. And so you can have Two different Tennessee whiskey makers using the exact same mash bill and process before it goes into the barrel.

And it can taste completely different coming out. based on where they they age it in the warehouse top floor bottom floor based on how they how much they char Or if they toast the barrel versus charring the barrel. It's just it's very different. It's a little bit like If you take bread, just white bread. And you toast it.

Every little bit more that it gets brown, it completely changes its taste. It's the same thing with whiskey. So we have For us, I can't speak for all of the whiskey companies. Our ours, we use triple filtration, so we obviously. Have the process that nearest taught

to Jack and to other distillers that and that process that was passed down to him from Other enslaved people, this filtration that happens before it goes into the barrel. But then we do two additional filtrations when it comes out of the barrel, but it's already been filtered once before it goes into the barrel. So it's already starting off ahead. Yeah. obviously so gifted as a storyteller and you you had some press attention already around the story behind it, but that doesn't necessarily always translate into into sales, right? Look at there they're Instagram influencers with with millions of followers who who create brands that go nowhere or or have podcasts, you know? How did you take

This brand, okay, you have a bottle now. It's twenty seventeen and you know, twenty eighteen, you've got this plan, this roll out plan. But you know, really the only at that time the only way to sell this stuff was on the shelves of liquor stores and, you know, maybe some big places like Bevmo and Costco or whatever, but How did How did you even begin to get into the liquor stores? What was your'cause it takes a lot of marketing money and and right? It it does. It does. It takes a lot of marketing money and the first thing I did was hire people. Hire who?

What kind of people? Hire salespeople. Just sale and and what was their what was their charge? What did you say, I need you to do what? Their charge was to go in and make sure that people knew the significance. of this bottle that was coming into the marketplace. And the way that I I would say it is if you walk into any type of liquor store, if you walk into any restaurant, any back bar, and you ask them a very simple question Tell me what whiskier bourbon is on your back bar that represents someone who is not a white male.

And just wait. Wow. And that was the approach that that your sales reps took. Absolutely. Because we had to understand that white males represent thirty percent of this country and a hundred percent. of the whiskeys up until Uncle Narist. One hundred percent And so I would ask the question and then I'd go

I'll wait. And it was always amazing to see the enlightened mit. of those who look at their and they just one by one would look at every bottle and go, Holy cow This entire time A country

That was Built. with blacks and white And this is our native spirit. And we know without question that African Americans, specifically the enslaved African Americans, were involved in every bit of the process from manufacturing to barrel making and barrel rolling and charring and and they would go home to to whatever home they had covered in smut and and just burning.

Black from top to bottom because of all of the hard work. Yeah and not one Bottle. On any Shelf. Represented someone who was not white male.

And that was enough to convince enough bars and r and liquor stores to At least carry the the brand. It convinced him to carry the brand and then it was our job. To make sure that people understood that. What they were doing when they bought a glass or a bottle of Uncle Nearest was not simply to sip.

On the whiskey. We need them to tell the story. We need for the first African American master distiller his name To be forever known and honored the same way that Jack Daniel and Johnny Walker and Jim Beam have been known and honored for Over a hundred and fifty years, we're just now starting to praise nearest. A hundred and fifty, hundred and sixty years after those guys. What I'm what I'm trying to understand is

Once you I mean the story is so compelling, right? And it's clear that that was going to be enough in in some cases to get it on the shelves, right, or to get it on the bar. But it it's still not enough. to connect it to the consumer, right? Because once your sales reps leave, They've told the story to the liquor store owner or the bartender.

Y I walk into a liquor store and there are, let's say forty or fifty different whiskey brands to pick from. How did how do you then create awareness? How did you get people to choose your brand because they may not know the story and maybe all they care about is a great whiskey, which is what you're producing, but How did you go from being on the shelves to people actually buying it? Well, there's a couple of things we did. Very early on I asked my head of sales to enter our whiskey into every spirit competition around the world. Right.

And I knew That if we could begin taking double gold and best in class. in every major competition, which by the way, there's been I think sixteen major competitions this year and we've received thirteen best in class. So we have we have swept all of the major competitions this year with the exception of a few, and even in those we got gold and double gold. And so I knew that we had to have a product that ran with the big dogs. And one of the places where we were going to be able to achieve earned media

is if we kept sweeping all the award and so That's where We began, but we also utilize scarcity marketing last September. We were out of stock.

In the entire country meaning we were selling much faster than we could bottle I spent a million dollars in commercial ads. When we were out of stock. Everywhere in the country.

And the reason I did that Is because individual consumers would then walk into a store and And say do you have Uncle Nearest? No.

Uh we're out of stock. And then the next one and the next one. So then you have these clerks. who all day long are selling spirits and not thinking anything of it. But if you keep having people come in and you have to keep telling them that there's a particular one that's sold out, now they're Googling to find out why this brand is sold out. Now all of a sudden. They have the the story and they understand the brand you have now created ambassadors all over

This country. And so every individual consumer became an ambassador. and all of those who at the different stores and restaurants and bars who were out of stock. They became ambassadors because they naturally became curious at why is everyone walking in and trying to buy a bottle that I'm out of style. And that's how we

We've gotten consumers to know more. Uh mental availability. That's how we've done it. It seems like And I don't want to be presumptuous, I don't know if this is the case, but but

It seems like you had A huge boost in sales in twenty twenty. Part of that because alcohol and and beverage sales in general had a a huge year because of the pandemic. And in part because there was a greater awareness around

In the wake of You know. massive social justice demonstrations around the country. Is that is that true? Did that happen? I don't think so.

I actually don't think that either one had to do with the propelling of our company. And the reason why I can say that is because we're craft spirits. We're independent. No independent saw big years last year. Because the big guys once the pandemic happened. They've got to keep those shares up, right? And so they took over the shelf space. There was very little shelf space. that remained for craft distillers.

And I think that we did something very different. during the pandemic, which is what propelled us and continued to propel us through the summer. which is we had thirteen open sales positions and R once we got shut down and were quarantined. I told the team

We are not changing. our strategy. We are staying pedaled to the metal. Our thirteen positions. We're going to pick up people that have been furloughed and laid off rock stars all over this country. And what I want for all of us to do during this period of time when we are in quarantine and we can't get out in the field.

Is everyone write a marketing plan for your specific market? I told my team, do not pay attention to what's going on in the world. We are going to hunker down and be ready. For the moment markets begin to open up. So one of the ideas, for instance, was from my team member in Ohio, Ronica, and she had this idea of to-go cocktails. Now, to-go cocktails were not legal anywhere at the time she had the idea. And the thought process was, well, if Ronica is right. And to go cocktails become a thing and they push it through the legislation. If we're the first company

Who has branded pouches already made and branded mason jars for these cocktails and We've created cocktails that allow for them to make maximum margin because they're in so much trouble, all the restaurants and bars. If we have this plan for all of our markets, that moment each market gets approval for to go cocktails, then we're gonna be the first ones out. And it was huge. And so there were different ideas like that that came out of this this time. So Our sales Uh

I I would like to say that those things that you refer to. have something to do with it, but we just celebrated our eleventh quarter in a row of triple digit gains. So we've been a hundred percent year over year for eleven quarters. That was only three quarters. Yeah, I remember interviewed Jim Cook of of Sam Adams uh Boston Beer Company And he said, you know, the big guys spill more beer. every year than we make. And people think of of Sam Adams as a huge brand, but but it is tiny compared to the

Um Whiskey is like I think Diaggio and Shibus and Yeah, and and a few other companies uh you know, Brand Foreman, William Granton, Bacardi, Centuri they they dominate this industry.

Um and you are a brand new independent Little guy. Little little little guy. Uh Teeny tiny fraction of this market still. So small. Yeah.

But have been growing at just a rapid pace um since since your founding Um, w do you have I mean, I have to imagine it's so cash intensive You know, and this is a business show, so we obviously talk about you know, the challenges of of running uh running a business and the cash involved. Uh I mean

Is it i is there a a clear horizon when when if if you haven't yet reached prop profitability. Is that is that Can you see that? So yes, we're we have achieved profitability, but at the same time we're building out a fifty million dollar distillery that we've already put more than twenty five into Amazing. And and so our distillery, even though it's open to the public and phase one and phase two are open and and it's sold out every weekend and and thank God for all of the people who literally pilgrimage to to nearest green distillery because they come and they get shirts and hats and we've got

I hired the former president of Disney store worldwide to merchandise but no, it's incredibly Incredibly expensive. I've raised over sixty million dollars. That's not enough. I will I mean I don't plan on doing any more raises, that's for sure. But we've we've had to structure debt in such a way to be able to make sure that we're continuing to to build out This legacy and that distillery is not cheap. So yes, we are in the black, but at the same time. Everything that we Earn all

Profitability. goes into building of Of the distillery. I I read that In March of twenty twenty one, you had sold about a million and a half bottles by now, you know, when this hairs it it it s certainly will be much more than that. Oh yeah.

Um growing really, really fast. Um, but still, you're still so new that you can't sell like fifteen, sixteen year old age whiskey, right? That that you've distilled yourself. I mean, could you have imagined being where you are now?

Yeah. four or five years ago when you When you kinda settled on on On this idea. Yeah, where we are now is where I forecast it. Wow.

So absolutely, but what we were very clear about doing is that We understood that we were about a hundred and sixty years behind. Hm. And so we

We work at a different Urgency than I think that others do. When I look at At Jack Daniels, they were purchased by Brown Foreman in in fifty six, if I remember correctly. And you have a brand.

That is so well. Established. That even if Brown Foreman sold it off to you know Bernod Ricard, who's a French company, and may not have Any idea. what to do with an American brand like Jack Daniel.

They still can't screw it up. Биканил з бранд Yeah. Too well known, the consumers love it too much that no matter who takes that brand over, they cannot screw it up. And that's the way that I look at my mission. here as it relates to Uncle Neeris is to build this brand

So large. And make it so the name so ubiquitous around the world that no future generation can screw it up. Jack died in in nineteen eighty. Henry We're still talking about him as if he's still alive. Yeah.

That's what I want to see. for nearest. A hundred and fifty years from now. Is for people to be talking about him. in in a manner that you forget.

He's no longer Here. That's the task. That's the goal. And that means I cannot grow this company incrementally at, you know, a few thousand cases. A year, I'm not gonna be alive that long.

Yeah. I am forty five. I have no doubt that Everything that has happened in my life, whether success or failure. Investments that I made that were good, investments that I made that were poor.

Every single aspect of my development up until Uncle nearest, I believe one hundred percent of it. was to prepare me for what I'm doing. Right now. So I look at this and say, can I go pedal to the metal for the next thirty five years? And if I do, where have I built this brand to by the time I transition to

The next life. That's Fawn Weaver. Founder and CEO of Uncle Nearest Premium Whiskey. By the way, one of Uncle Nereus' recent ads actually features a song by Fon's dad. Frank Wilson.

which he wrote and performed in the 60s before he became known as a Motown producer. The song is called Two I love you. Indeed I do.

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you're not yet a subscriber, please do subscribe or follow the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to write to us, our email address is hibt at npr.org. If you want to follow us on Twitter or at HowI Built This or mine is at GuyRaz, you can find us on Instagram at how I built this NPR or again mine at guy.Roz. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger with music composed by Ramteen Araboui. It was edited by Niva Grant with research help from Claire Murishima. Our production staff includes Casey Herman, JC Howard, James Delahouse, Rachel Faulkner, Julia Carney, Faris Safari, Harrison B. J Choi, and Elaine Coates. Jeff Rogers is our executive producer.

I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. How I built this. This is NPR.

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