#509: George Mumford, Mindfulness Coach to Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, on Awareness, Compassionate Action, The Dizziness of Freedom, and More

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A cybernetic organism, living tissue of a metal endocrine. No Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to interview world class performers from all different areas and I feel very fortunate today to have not only a world class performer in his own right, but a world class performer who has a lot of experience working with world class performers.

George Mumford. He is a globally recognized speaker, teacher, and coach. Since nineteen eighty nine, he's been honing his gentle but groundbreaking mindfulness techniques with people from locker rooms While at the University of Massachusetts, where he roomed with future Hall of Famer. Julius Irving.

Injuries forced Mumfred out of basketball and eventually into an addiction to pain medication and drugs. With the help of meditation and mindfulness, he got clean and made it his mission. to teach and work with others. Michael Jordan credits George with transforming his on court leadership, helping the Bulls to six NBA championships. George has also worked with Kobe Bryant, Keel O'Neill, and the Uh, and countless other MBA players, as well as Olympians, executives, and artists. George believes everyone has a masterpiece within. His book, The Mindful Athlete, Secrets to Pure Performance, Both memoir and instruction guide can show you how to access it. George also has the Mindful Athlete course, which can be found at GeorgeMumford.com as well as many other resources. You can find him on Instagram.

at George.mumford, M U M F O R D, and on Twitter at GT. Mumford. George, welcome to the show. Thank you, Tim. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm excited about being here. Me too. We were introduced by

Our mutual friend Jack Cornfield, who has nothing but wonderful things to say and You are a practitioner. In more ways than one. So I love digging into the details and the stories. So we're gonna start with a story. And then we'll probably rewind. But

I would love to hear about the first time You ever watched Michael Jordan practice. What was that experience like? The first time

I watched Michael Jordan practice. It was amazing. Because he There's no difference between how he plays and what he how he practices. So if you see him performing on the court, that's how he practices. There's no difference. He just playing at a high level, playing to win.

But also you can see how he gets better each time he gets on the court. He just really locked in and really committed to excellence. I wanna dovetail because my first encounter with Michael was not in practice, it was When I first went to work with the Bulls, he had retired. And even though he was retired, he wasn't with the team, he actually was

hanging around. He was in a locker room. And so I asked one of the Players Or it might have been a coach that. They introduce me to him.

Even Before I could get close to him, I could feel his aura. I could feel his His ability. His level concentration, his mind focus. His ability, he had this energy, and I'm like an impact so I can feel things. I'm a I'm a feeler.

It was so profound. Even before I even got to meet him, just feeling the energy that exuded from him and his ability to really Be the eye of the hurricane. In the midst of things. So

That was the first fascinating thing I saw about him. was just his energy, just walking into the room and meeting him, even though he didn't have run basketball Uniform. He wasn't out on the court. He was just in a locker room, just hanging out. What is it that you felt Like in your body.

What was that experience like? In meditation circles we talk about getting into a state of intense state of concentration or samadhi. Or calm. So when you're really concentrated And you're really locked in. There's a like an alert relaxedness. So you're alert, but there's a poise there because you're in the moment, you're centered.

And you're just totally present. And that's what it felt like. It just felt like uh there was a energy, a calm energy, but also an intense energy. Mm. So that's what it felt like, a combination of intensity and calmness. No

You can't trust everything you read, but I was, of course, doing some reading in preparation for this, so please feel free. To fact check this. But I read that when you first saw him practicing You thought to yourself Something along the lines of there's no way he can sustain that. This must be someone with bipolar disorder.

Or some type of disorder who's in a manic stage. Is there any truth to that? No, I never said that. Okay. So I never no,'cause my thing is see, I I know the difference between high intensity And having an intensity based on on a mindset that's positive and combined. The one thing I did notice about the first practice that you reminded me of

Was that When I first saw him practice. He looked like a person trying to make the team. In what respect? He was just uh he was putting forth the extra effort. Putting forth the extra effort like I gotta make the team and course

Now I understand why he was that way because what he did was let's think about how he related to his experience. We call it strong self-efficacy. It's like when you master your mastery of life experiences. So he got cut from his high school basketball team. Mm. The tenth grade. And so I think at that time he made a decision he would never get cut.

From a team again. And I saw that In the practice. Where he was acting like he was trying to make the team not I don't mean like Like he has a anxiety and he he's trying to

Impress people. I'm saying he was Proven. that he's the best player on the court. You were getting his best. You were getting At a high level. He wasn't resting.

He was acting like I need to get better. I need to prove a point. Not so much prove a point, but to let people know. That there's no way I'm not making this team.

But there's no way I'm not gonna be Central to what we're doing. So I see it as a positive. I don't remember saying that'cause I I don't know if I would say I would say he has high energy. I know other people that have high energy. But his difference of him having high energy

It's with a purpose and there's a cat like quality to it. What I mean by like a cut. Like quality, like you can see a cat, a house cat. They can go from being kinda chill. To jump into action.

With a grace, with the ease, with the ferocity. And with a direction like a direct So Or whatever. They just sh it was like yeah, he could pounce on you any minute. And we're gonna certainly come back.

Michael Jordan, who Especially I mean at that time was effectively treated like a god. I mean this was This was the man who could walk on water. And uh I'll add a a footnote just for anyone at Vice who's listening. If so this is an article from Vice.com, which has a lot of great articles, well researched articles, but this one may need some factual correction. So that is the Zen Masters Zen Master, which is a great headline, though, you must admit. That is that is a very complimentary headline.

Let's roll back the clock because I wanted to provide a Snap shot. of you working with Нач

athletes at the top of their game, but really at the time. This pantheon of athletes who were worshiped around the world. And there's a big difference. And there really is a difference. Right. But it wasn't always that way. Far from it.

And So Let's fact check. A separate quote and you can tell me if this is more on the money. And I should say also that the manic

Quote wasn't so much a quote, it was an indirect quote. So they didn't use quotation marks, but they said fought to himself and things like that. This is one that I believe is a direct quote. Yeah. Quote I had a security clearance on my badge and track marks on my forearm. If that is even approximately accurate.

Could you provide a time and a place? for when this was and explain, please. Yeah, that was totally accurate because On my first job out of college. What I was working And w what was called it was a financial management development program.

And I was working with GTE Savania. I don't even know if they're what they're called now, but general telephone electronics and then Savania light bulbs and There was a big company. At the time when I got out of college I Was a functional

Addicts. And so I had tracks on my um So I had I always wore long sleeve shirts. I couldn't we wear short sleeve shirts. This was from Harrowin Use? Mm-hmm. Yeah, from shooting up, yes.

So in those days when when I was getting my security clearance. They literally had FBI agents coming around and interviewing my friends and family going back ten years. You have to go through this tremendous process just to get a s secret clearance and then it's top secret. But I had a secret clearance.

So I had the clearance, but at the same time I had this hidden life. Uh you know Tracks on my arm, so that's very accurate. It's totally accurate. And it wasn't until probably When I got clean in eighty four years after that that that there's no no more track.

Marks. But for yes, it was very tenuous because I was concerned about passing physicals'cause I had to get examined by the doctors and they say, Oh What's up with that, you know? With that on your arm, you know, they kinda know what it looks like. That was a process.

And as a matter of fact, when I used to have to give blood sometimes They would make a comment like, Well, you got that all used up, look. On your arms, you know, so I would just laugh at it, but it was a fair statement. So yeah, I I had to wear long sleeve shirts all year round. Yeah.

At that time then this might seem like a really silly question. Because in the introduction. And in the bio I read. It mentioned Injuries.

And addiction. But at that point when you had this clearance and your Shooting up. Why were you an addict? That's not to say that it wasn't

natur and understandable. I'm just I'm just wondering if it was a byproduct of the pain and then you became physically dependent, or if there was more to it. It's complex. But one of the things I discovered in my days competing as an athlete When I got injured They didn't have pain medicine, so

they would give me dogmar, they'd give me some kind of pain.'Cause I was always in pain. Part of it was emotional pain. I had a lot of stomach problems or G. I issues'cause of stress. I noticed that when I was was under the influence of these Pay match that I actually Felt good and I could talk to people. Other than that, I was quiet and shy let my basketball

Talk to me. So it impacted me in a certain way, like in the addiction So you do it, you do it, and then you cross that line where you become addicted, you cannot not do it. Not only does it become something that your body craves, but it becomes part of a lifestyle. Part of an identity. So I got my first vaccination shot.

Two weeks ago. Tomorrow. And I remember so she went right into my arm. gave me a vaccination spot and I realized that It reminded me when I started using drugs, I didn't start off just

going into the vein, I started off what we call skin popping, just like getting a vaccine. It is put it into your system. Into the skin. So it always starts when you you know, you just get high a little bit. Then it keeps growing. It's a progressive

thing. It's a progressive disease and it kept progressing and then you start doing other things and then you start Doing things in combination and then you're doing drugs that they're not even your drugs of choice or drinking things you don't even drink. You're looking to get high. So it's the emotional pain. But it's also a way of dealing with reality. So that was my thing. I was under the influence in one way, four more Fashion. Many addicts.

Don't make it out. Or they don't stop using until they Either just continue as a functioning addict. Until the end of their days. Or

Some catastrophe befalls them. What were the deciding moments or elements that helped you to become sober.

I had a incident I think it was in March. 'Cause I went to my first Twelve step. meeting was with AA on April Fools Day, April first.

In March I had a Strap infection. But I didn't know. that I was sick until I went to the doctors and I had a hundred and four degree temperature, so I had to go in the hospital I went to the hospital and they had a abscess on my arm and they had a

Treat it. And they wouldn't give me any payments'cause they knew I was addicted to drugs and I was withdrawing or whatever. And at that point, as people would say You know, if you keep this up, you're gonna die. And for some reason it hit me That I just couldn't do it anymore.

And so I got to a spiritual bottom. So I call it as the elevator Theory. You might start off at the penthouse. And for some people they have to go to the sub level. B two or B three, whatever it is.

But for me, I knew I was at Maybe not at the penthouse, but if I was on on the twenty fifth floor, I'm now on the fourth floor. Then I'm heading towards the third floor. So I decided to get out because, you know, I just couldn't do it anymore. It was just emotionally, it was like being in a place where I couldn't do it anymore, but I could not. Not do it because it was a habit.

That was in March when I think started getting the rock bottom and then when my friend came by took me to A meeting on April first. That's when I saw that there was It was a way forward. There was a way out. I looked at This person that was like me, but yet he was

Yeah, sobriety. I Went to the meeting and then I continued to use and But I started thinking about ways and then when I went into the detox

I was different, but I think all of that paid dividends. So even though I was around recovery, going to meetings But I was still Getting high and Well using drugs and alcohol, but mostly

Yeah, I was doing both. But it was different. Something changed when I shift it when I went to my first meeting. But then what happened when I went into the detox There was a fight Process.

Or in a dialogue they said The same George that goes in here. Can't be the same George that comes out. Mm. 'Cause the same George that goes in

If that George comes out, he's gonna get high. He's gonna keep doing what he's doing. So you have to be a different person. You have to be a different George. And I don't know where that came from. It was just Just a thought that told me that yeah, I had to do it differently. I had to be different. Where were you at the time? Geographically.

Yeah, I was living in Dorchester. I mean, actually I lived in Matipan. So I was living in Boston. A lot was happening. I I lost my car, you know, I was just barely surviving. I continued to work and everything, but I had some issues. And when I did that And the detox is in walking distance from my house.

And so after I got out of the detox And walked home, it was the first time I ever saw my house. My street. First time you ever saw it, meaning you first time you saw it in a d in it was on life's terms, where I could really see it and not seeing it through a phone or through To a haze.

Or you know,'cause I I lived in fantasy or I was, you know, hiding out in plain sight. Mm. So I didn't know that until I noticed that oh I'm really seeing I really see things. But it was more about me really seeing life and seeing myself. For the first time without having the influence of substances or hiding out in my own little inner fantasy world.

How did Mindfulness. In any capacity. Enter your life. What happened was

Just to give you a little insight, my spiritual experience or my first mindfulness or meditative experience that I can Think of that was powerful. Was that day I got out of the detox and maybe it was the next day I went to work.

When I went to work I I had like it was three weeks out of work. I had all this money waiting for me. And the obsession that look the use the compulsion obsession to use. Came upon me. This is the thing. I got triggered. And I knew that if I were to go into the Rest room and the men's room.

And just recite the serenity prayer. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. the courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference. I did that like a mantra. It's repeating it time like over and over. And the obsession was removed.

And I had some stabilization. So that was my first experience. But what also happened when I got clean I had chronic pain. My migraine headaches, which if anybody ever had a migraine headache, you know when it gets to a point, doesn't matter what they give you, it's just not enough. And I had chronic back pains, which I had since College.

I used to sleep on a bedboard and I've been going to a cow practice since nineteen seventy five. So what's that? Forty six years? Yeah. So I was going to chiropractor before, you know, when it was still wasn't viewed like it is today. So I had a lot of pain. I was dealing with my pain administering pain medicine. Not just physical, but emotional and probably spiritual pain.

See you Serenity Prayer. As this sort of grounding mantra That helps you to stabilize And Then

From where does the Mindfulness or meditation come. So I had the chronic pain. And so at the same time I was in a HMO. Back in those days and

And they had this experimental program. So I was and I had a therapist I was working with. to help me, you know, sort out stuff so I can go into the detox and I was working with him and when I got out we were talking about strategies And they had this Experimental program run out of Beth Israel.

run by Doctor John Borosinko, who at the time was one of the three psychoneuroimmunologists in the world. Just means mind body. medicine and uh indocrine system and that sort of thing.

So they had the stress management program. So I signed up and I had a P and Spit and they take Pre and post testing. And what they did was they introduce us to this idea of taking responsibility for ourselves learning about the mind body process

But being an active participant with the healthcare. that we were getting, whether it was a doctor or whatever And that's where I learned about meditation and Mindfulness and yoga and and some of the Mind body practices like Tai Chi and Yoga, obviously.

And they gave us a syllabus of bunch of books to read. I don't know if they had twenty, twenty five books on that list. I read every one of those books and then I read books that they Recommended. So Um thirty six years and Six months.

Clean and sober and I have averaged over a book a week during that time. So I just really got into Understanding it. I wanted to understand. How did I get clean and others don't? What was the motivation? How do I Enhance my ability to grow and develop.

And so I got really stimulated, intellectually stimulated. around that. And that's how I got into this whole thing of mindfulness. And then I was doing that and that helped with my recovery. I was already in twelve steps. My recovery was pretty good'cause I I was connected to the spirit or I have my concept of God which worked for me and and allowed me to understand that there is a power grader myself and that all I had to do is basically

There's a plug in the wall, all I had to do is plug into the power source and And I would be able to do things and then as a natural outgrowth of that, she suggested that I go to do a retreat at this place and Barry Mass called Insight Meditation Society. And so I did a weekend retreat there.

And then I was introduced to the Cambridge Insight Meditation Center which is in the In Cambridge, right? In a city. And you could go there and do day longs and stuff like that. So that's how I got into it and then While I was doing that, my teacher there, Larry Rosenberg

Good friend for John Capaz in. After three, four years of recovery, I connected with John and then I did the mindfulness based stress reduction and then I ended up working in the um center for mindfulness or at that time it was called

stress reduction and relaxation program. I ended up working there for five years. I had a prison project and then we developed the inner city project, but I lived at the meditation center uh in Cambridge for six years. while I was working and two years where I wasn't working, where I was just meditating and reading and studying and Teaching going out.

From The center would get these requests from different outlets, it could be uh youth center, it could be a business like A T and T or Nine X at the time. And I would go out and I would teach

mindfulness. I would teach meditation. I have a business school So I was doing my training. uh to become a teacher at the same time I was continuing to grow and evolve. And then when I worked at the Center for Mindfulness, it was Part of my job is to teach mindfulness based stress reduction, but really it was more about teaching them

The same process I had. It's an inner game and how to take control of your life in the sense of being responsible. an understanding of how the mind and body work and how we can relate to our experience in a way that leads to more peace, ease, freedom.

Compassion. That's one hell of a U-turn and self transformation. And I'm also still Thinking about the stacks of books that would represent the number of books you've read over that

Yeah. Were there any Books. in the beginning that really Ignited you.

Or any books that you remember really grabbing your attention because you you really applied yourself in a very Wholehearted way. And I'm wondering what some of the catalysts might have been. Were any books particularly impactful or conversations? One that was on a New York best seller list for like ten years.

Road less traveled? But um I'm Scott Peck. But also Zim Mind, Beginner's Mind, it was a lot of books pain as Motivator. Love is letting go of fear. And there were a lot of different books, but the Bible was always in there.

It's interesting. I was doing like A presentation. at Lululemon for about a thousand people couple years ago and They asked me well what book would I recommend and I was thinking about'cause there's tons of books. Depends on where you are and what books work for you.

And I said, Uh the Bible. And I don't know where that came from. It just came out of my The Sant and I said Well that makes sense because

There's one in every hotel room. And there's a lot of stuff in there. And I said the acronym that I remember is Ask. A S K And that is asking it shall be given to you.

Seek and ye shall find knock and it shall be open to you. It's amazing. I went to some Sunday school So I was thirteen then I stopped going to church. Yeah. As I get older, all of those sayings like there's even mindfulness in the Bible.

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. And I started realizing that spiritual truth is spiritual truth, whether it's comes out of the Bible or the Koran. Or the Kabbalah, it doesn't matter, or from the Buddhist teachings It's all that wisdom. Literature and philosophy. I've read a lot of

Martin Boobers stuff. I am thou, the way of man. I got really drawn to existentialism when I went back to graduate school. And I studied Victor Franco and And search for meaning.

And what I call the religious existentialists like Victor Franco and Martin Buber, and then there's Camus Satra. Check a god. If we look at the entire spectrum of books you've read, I'll try to help narrow them down and then we'll we'll move into some different lines of questioning. But

What books would you say, aside from your own that you have gifted to other people or recommended the most to other people. Those people could be high level athletes. I'm just wondering if there are a handful of books that you tend to gift the most or recommend the most To other people. Zen Mine, beginners mine used to be one that I would recommend

Years ago. So it depends on But I think More recently when talking about performance when I'm working with clients, it's

There's a book called The Three Laws of Performance. This is what that looks like. It's a really good one. Steve Zaffron and Dave Log. Yeah. And then on becoming a leader, that these are the books that I've been reading recently. But

Warren Venice. And more of that, I say lots of things. The thing I like about it, he says to become a leader you have to become yourself. So I've been focusing on leadership a little bit more. recently, but any of the books that you know, some of the books about the teachings of the Buddha or psychology books. I read a lot of Roll O May.

The meaning of anxiety from It's a bunch of guys. Obviously Victor Franco's book man in search for meaning. Be a good one. It's really challenging for me to answer that question because It's fluid.

Yeah. Totally. It depends on the person as well. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. Small business owners have always shown an incredible ability to adapt and innovate. This past year has certainly highlighted many examples. Now, another way you can adapt and innovate in 2021 is by finding the right people to help you grow your business. LinkedIn makes it possible for you to do exactly that.

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Tim to learn more. Again, that's LinkedIn.com slash Tim to post your first job for free. Terms and conditions do apply. Yeah. Well it seems like You're traveling this path. You've gone from competitive athlete

than to working and using simultaneously, you become sober. You're still working, but then the nature of your self work certainly changes and you're developing this ability Cultivating this greater awareness, this ability to observe your own thinking.

How did elite sports enter the picture? How did you end up becoming connected? To that world. When I was working at the medical center And at that time we had the prison project.

We were in about five. Department of Corrections, Massachusetts Department of Corrections. prisons but I also taught at their training facility. I used to work with staff, do two cycles a year teaching the staff mindfulness based stress reduction. At that time John used to go to this place called Omega Institute.

John Tabbits in the M. John Cabin's in. And uh he was out there. Him and his partner, Saki Santarelli and And they met

And Phil used to do a program called beyond basketball there. So they were they're on campus at the same time and they were talking and This is Phil Jackson. Which a lot of that's okay, which a lot of people would have seen it from the last dance. Yes.

So That that summer. interaction, Phil was sh and his wife at the time, June They were interested in having somebody come in and work with the Bulls at'cause they had just won three NBA championships in a row. And so they were given a presentation and then they saw me and they said, Well who's this guy? And

She worked where they said, Yeah, this is George Mumford, the room with Doctor J and You know, he does this and they say he would be perfect. What team and so Phil and I talked and He invited me to training camp in nineteen ninety three. And in the interim, we talked in July, in the interim Michael Jordan's father got murdered and Michael

Retired. When I showed up in Chicago and October and nineteen ninety three, they were full blown crisis and then I went in and there were and I had to pretty much do an intervention. with the team and then talking to them about this process of

I talked about being a spiritual warrior. Just like martial arts, you have to train a certain way. And so I talked about martial arts. I studied Tai Chi for a lot of years. I brought the Zen in the martial arts. That's what I I present it to them and then being in the zone, being in flow.

That's how it all started and then it just Took off from there. Let's approach this from a bunch of different angles. The first angle I'd love to Cover.

Is What Phil believed the team needed. Or Why hі felt

it would be well served by having your skill set or you there. What what was it that he hoped to accomplish? So We have uh A similar philosophy.

You may recall when LeBron James entered into the political sphere. They told him to just dribble and shut up. Phil looks at the whole person as a basketball player with a body, mind, heart, and soul. And so To him, he's his job is to care for them.

And beyond basketball. And they had just won three NBA championships. they were dealing with the stress of success. What happens when you become successful? Everybody comes at you, they want something. He wanted them to be prepared. and wanted to support them in their

ability to sustain that success and to continue to grow. and involve as people. Not just basketball players. And so bringing me in that to help them deal with the stress of success,'cause I was working in a stress reduction clinic, it made a lot of sense.

But I I had similar backgrounds and I I played basketball. I was a athlete. And I was around celebrity. Doctor J was Michael Jordan before Michael Jordan, so Even when I was in college, being his roommate.

everywhere he went, it was like not quite like the Beatles, but everybody would come in. And he just couldn't go many places because he would draw a crowd. He had a certain level of charisma and stuff. So I had my experience had the experience of and I used to go visit him when he played an ABA. So I've been around the MBA and

Yeah, sort of thing. So it may Perfect sense for me to go in. And it teach them how to deal with the stress of success. That was the initial thing but of course when I had gone down there they were had a identity crisis as well as

An opportunity. to grow and that's what I proposed to uh to the team. is a crisis has two meanings. One meaning is dangero which we get, but the other meaning is opportunity. This is an opportunity to look just like me. It's an opportunity. My substance abuse wasn't a curse. It was a blessing.

Wouldn't be who I was if I didn't Experience that. How do we relate to life in the way where it empowers and inspires us? That's why even I I was down it. That's why I work so well with you because

If he had the philosophy to just shut up and dribble, I I wouldn't be able to work with him. Had uh Phil tried other approaches. to impart even if this word is appropriate is the objective, mindfulness, had he tried other things before or was

Were you just the perfect vehicle in his mind for introducing the players to some of these skills. To answer your question, yes, that's what happened. I came in and he realized that it It could work and especially it's nothing like baptism

You know Baptism by fire. Yes. Okay, how do you do oh it's okay when everything's nice, but what's gonna happen when When everybody's butt's on fire, how's he gonna is he gonna be able to meet the challenge? I think that Phil used to do sessions with the guys, but it was obvious and he says it in his books. That it made sense for somebody from the outside to come in.

And because I could do it in a way where they could listen to me and I had a user friendly language. You know, I could teach in any domain. That was all of those years going in Making house calls if you will, not working in the main centers or or the traditional places, but going where people lived.

and being able to talk to them in a language they could understand But yet give them the essence of The teachings. But he has from time to time he's he brought in yoga teachers, he brought in Somebody to teach them Tai Chi. But the thing was I think a lot of people Can have

The training in these Disciplined. But you have to meet people where they are. And so they would come in and I remember having conversations with this one particular person. And I told her, I said They just had two and a half hour practice. You can't take'em through two hours of yoga.

Can't do it. Or you have to make it real before them and you have to Understand that less is more. might be better for you to teach them how to stretch and Relax a little bit and then

Depending on their situation and You can teach them some people maybe need more standing yoga poses, whatever. So my whole idea was you gotta start with the understanding of what you can do to help the situation and you gotta meet people where they were. So a lot of people I think At least in in some cases they come in not understanding

that the context is more important than the content. That's a really That's a really, really important concept in line to underscore, right? The context is more important than the content. And this In so much as what that s brings to mind for me is that the tendency, the very understandable

impulse that a lot of people have to copy and paste whatever is working in one place to another place, but That just doesn't necessarily work, like you said, if someone's just come out of a two and a half hour Practice and they're going a hundred percent They don't have the slack in the system to do two hours of yoga. And I I read that

As you noted. One of the things you observed when you first started working with the Chicago Bulls was that they're dealing with all types of distractions that you don't necessarily get exposed to until you're at a higher level and that the more successful a person or team becomes the more distractions there are so it actually gets in some respects very difficult to continue doing the things that got you to where you are. In the first place. So they're getting requests.

for tickets from friends and Other hangers on right before Some of the most important games. All manners of shiny objects and obstacles and distractions.

What were some of the recommendations you made or tools you suggested, anything to these players so they could Turn down the volume on some of these distractions. Yes. The thing is

Understanding that Whatever you're doing, you gotta be fully present to it and understand what are you doing and what are the consequences. What's it costing you? How much energy can you allow

for this activity versus the next activity. I would say a lot of things to them. One thing I would say to them is don't believe the hype. So what does that mean? That means that when you go get interviewed They tell you you're the greatest thing since sliced bread, you say thank you and you just smile. And if they tell you you're the biggest choke artist of all time, you just thank them. It's small. So it's more about how they relate.

the people and just not give energy to that. It's just really understand that what's really important. You have to understand that even though you have your family with you, even though there's certain things that are going on You have to create a kind of a cocoon for yourself to be ready to play.

And so y your rituals, your your rituals the day of the game and So I would talk to them about rituals, but it was really more about There's no such thing as multitasking. that you just do one thing at a time. So if you have a process where You're gonna write tickets for a certain amount of time at certain time during y the pre game thing.

Then you do that, didn't you set that aside, then You have to have your space and time for your readiness for you to get ready to play. But I didn't really get into that. They'd have to ask me about it. Back in those days it was really different. I it was like they had a volunteer, whereas now

The analogy I would use is before it was like Lazy fair, the ones that wanted to do it, fine, the ones that didn't. That's fine. Well I have the analogy of

If you have somebody out in the rain. Can at least go out there with an umbrella and ask them if they wanna come in. Mm-hmm. You know, so you just meet them where they are and then if you can kinda bring them in.

But some people they thrive. I mean, everybody's different. Some people like quiet, some people want, you know, rousing music. It's different. Like Dennis Rodman. in the latter category. But it's really more about them It was really more about teaching them from moment to moment.

How They're relating to the experience and understanding the quality of mind. that they have, the mind state that they have, and how to just be In a moment. And be clear about what you're doing and what you're getting.

And the willingness to adjust and adapt. Like you said, what gets you here It's just what that is. It got you here, but to go beyond that you have to let go to grow. And you had to be willing to develop other habit patterns, other ways of being. to go, they continue to evolve. And the growth. So it's really more about the inner game and them getting clarity about

what they want and who they're being and how to develop the me, but the we has to be the context in which the Mi is operating. So let's talk about meeting people where they are because That person in the rain, you know, you might have not to stretch the metaphor too far, but you might have one person who's doing

Jumping jacks and smiling, one person who's huddling in a corner. Another person who's Who knows? Drink it out of a puddle. There are so many different personalities Right. And I was reading a piece in the Boston Globe.

And man, I mean you y the the types of testimonials that you have, the belief that other people ascribe to you is is just uh incredible. I and uh I'll just read a little piece here. This is from the Boston Globe, a piece in 2015. This is Kobe Bryant. He's basically saying I'm gonna paraphrase here. He's saying that many people tried to get him to meditate. Kobe Bryant once told an interviewer, quote, but I couldn't sit still for twenty minutes.

Under the tutelage of Phil Jackson and Mumford, however, meditation became a key to game preparation for Bryant and for his teammate and feud counterpart Shaquille O'Neal. There weren't a lot of things that Shaq and Coby agreed on, says Lazenby, another person in this piece, but they both agreed on the effectiveness of George Mumford. Okay. Could you speak to The differences or similarities in teaching, say, Michael Jordan versus Kobe versus Shaquille O'Neal.

some of the tools in your toolkit. Like how did you approach those Seemingly very different personalities. When I say talk about meeting people where they are, I let the wisdom and the mindfulness dictate what I do. I have to get insight. I have to get a clarity of okay w what's the context. How do I deal with this person one size does not fit all.

It has to be a specificity of really getting clear. But also getting clear my mind which's my intention. But at the same time it's just going in and just Figuring out how to relate to them in a way that makes sense. You think about

About the great spiritual teachers like Jesus or Buddha. They talk in parables. Or if they're going to talk to carpenters, they're going to use carpentry examples. If you're gonna talk to people who are bricklayers or stone masons, you're gonna use that language. To express the essence of what you're talking about.

So when you talk to people about If you create a vision of possibility where you say, Hey you're challenged with this or you want to achieve this. You might consider doing this. 'cause this can enhance you and by the way, you know, I did this with

This person or You know, I know the elite, they do that. Yeah, I went with Jay. J, Doctor J. I'm talking about And he You know, I know for a fact there's certain practices people have, there's certain ways of being

That you can have so some people are auditory. Some people are visual, some people are kinesthetic. So I had to meet them in that modality where they can take in information. So a lot of it is connecting with them. I don't know how else to say it. And then and then feeling your way through. Just being present. With it and relating to them.

As each individual And understanding how What will work for them. When I first started doing this, I didn't like standing still. I used to do more walking meditation than sitting. Or do more Tai Chi or more yoga.

But I talk about Sometimes you got to move your way in the stillness. I like that. That's great.

And then sometimes and you have stillness and movement. My teaching, my seafood used to talk about there's movement and stillness and stillness and movement. So you have to understand my modality is more like physical So how do I move myself in the stillness? Can you give any examples, any specific examples or stories? related to working with, say

Kobe w or Shaq, I'm curious to know what this looks like. In practice if any moments or stories or examples come to mind. It's interesting'cause I spend a lot of my time just just sitting there observing. Most of it is observing and getting a sense for where people are. And then finding the moment when I can go in and and give them a teaching.

Or talk to them about something they're dealing with. I had a conversation with Kobe Early on. And my first year I work with them. When I said to Kobe the best way to score is not to try to score.

Trying really hard and Several years ago When he invited me to go down to Who put beach and hang out with him, I asked him about that.

And he said that he remembered everything I told him. And he has like a photographic Memory, but it's Picking the time to really Ask them how they're seeing things or talk to them about okay, I know you want to achieve this. Think about this.

A lot of people think that the practice of mindfulness, the practice of Insight meditation is just sitting and being still. Is a big part of it is is cultivating wisdom. And talking about integrity. Talking about walking your talk, but also

Understanding how to cultivate a sense of compassion for yourself and others and how to I guess love is the way I would talk about it. You When you love something, you labor for it, you make it grow. And so talking about just heart to heart, just talking about

Well If this is what you're interested in Here's an application. Is a way of thinking or looking at it. Then you might consider these things.

Could you explain what the dizziness of freedom is. I've heard you use this phrase before. Yes. And uh it really stuck with me. Could you please explain what this is and how you see it? Freedom is not free if you will So the dizziness of freedom is because you're on you're in the road less traveled or you're on shaky ground. The ground you're on is moving.

To the degree that And I'm going back to eighteen forty six. Sort of cooker guide. And he said that One side of the coin is freedom or potential, the heads, the other side is anxiety or uncertainty.

He called it the alarming possibility of being able. Ha. When you Change a behavior or a habit.

You have to experience anxiety, you have to experience uncertainty. You have to experience discomfort. Because we're comfortable With where we are until when we grow. The only way that happens is you gotta be able to be a little bit uncomfortable. You gotta be beyond

your comfort zone. You gotta have a Discomfort zone. Where you go into and then Because we adapt to things, then you will adapt. So it's possible you get comfortable With being uncomfortable.

So the dizziness of freedom is like Okay, before when you didn't have freedom, you did the same thing. You don't have to think, you don't have to reflect, you don't have to take a risk, you don't have to be vulnerable. But now you're being freedom and you're going to a different door, you're trying something else. then the dizziness of it is you do this thing when you can do that thing. How do you make a choice?

out of all of these options. And you wanna have more options'cause if you only have two options on some level It's restricting, but on another level is yes either or So when you start understanding that this is There's no

meaning in the universe other than what you give it. Or even though you could do this thing, you can also do that thing, and when you do this thing Yeah. no longer have those things. So if I have five choices I make one, I lose four.

So now that I'm in here and now I'm worried, well did I make the right choice? So the uncertainty Mm-hmm. It's a military term they use, VUCA, V U C A. From moment to moment, things are volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. So you have to embrace uncertainty, ambiguity.

That's part of the life. This is what life is about. It's about saying yes and Yes, it's f frustrating, it's unpleasant. And It's okay. This is it. When I grow, this is what comes with it. If I m achieve my goals

You look at the positive, but there's a negative. The other side is You're in a rowboat with people, you change, they gotta change, they gotta move, they don't wanna move. Or they got you in the box and now you're out of the box, so now they gotta refure who you are. They're gonna kick you in the box and get mad at you. So for whatever reason, but it always comes down to discomfort, being uncomfortable.

The nervous system is wired this way. If it's pleasant, we move approach. It's unpleasant, we avoid, and if it's neither with indifference, we space out. what the nervous system does so when you impute meaning on to something and say It's gonna be great.

Even though it's uncomfortable, I know on the other side This is the only way out. It's true. Then once I commit to that and I have the experience of going through it and then coming to a another level of grace, of ease. Of peace. Then

I continue to do that. That's what I talk about the superpower trust. You need trust, but when you can verify it Through insight. to information, to experience

Now and it goes from Confidence to conviction. And then now you you get on a A beneficial. cycle where things keep getting the rich get richer.

Because you know That if you learn and and you achieve It's gonna generate enthusiasm and you're gonna wanna learn more. You're gonna wanna commit to it'cause you know that and this is what the elites do.

They see those things as challenges. Oh, this is great. This is an opportunity for me to express myself. That mindset is the growth mindset, but it's also Pursuing excellence. Let's talk about

Growth and excellence. And I'd love to frame it. Through a Contrast That I've read you make.

And you've written about this and and there there are Yeah. Examples of this on uh GeorgeMumford dot com. V or a barrier breakthrough versus the improvement trap. Could you

Explain for people what these two things are. Incremental improvements. means you're just improving But when you have a paradigm then it's totally different because when you're improving something, okay, I'm gonna improve this show, I'm gonna do it. So that can be a trap. It can be helpful, but it can be a trap because you're just looking to improve

Instead of looking to Break out. As Steven Curvey says, every breakthrough is a break with. So you you have to change the paradigm. So you have to change how you see yourself. So if you keep so Michael Jordan's what did he say when he hit the winning shot?

Against Georgetown and the NCAAs. He said I went from Mike Jordan to Michael Jordan. See what I'm saying? So he had a paradigm shift.

Realize okay, I'm great, not I'm gonna be great or I can be great. I'm a great player. I see myself as Michael Jordan capable of doing everything. When you have a breakthrough, that means You're changing how you see things, and when you change how you see things. Then things change.

So when you change how you see things Things you look at change. the constant improvement is great to have improvement. But a breakout has to do with You could be improving and being a little pawn.

And it's good for the little prime, but to really break out, the really go beyond that. It's you have to just have courageous initiative. It's nice I can hit singles all day, I'm playing baseball, just get a single. But You want to be able to not only hit a single, but hit hit whatever the heck you want. Hit home runs, hit Whatever. So I would say the vision of possibility is bigger in one versus the other.

where it's keeping you playing small. And it's comfortable. Bush in Being big. And having a breakout.

Right, having that complete kind of shift of perspective uh in uh it sounds like particularly as Yeah, as you mentioned in the Mike Jordan to Michael Jordan, it's a shift in how one views themselves. Are there any other

examples that you can think of things you've seen in athletes or others That have really stuck in your mind that stand out in your memory. Other Breakthroughs or breakouts like this.

Well Not over a long period of time, but in an instant or in a single game, in a single practice, maybe Over a a week or a month you see a a real quantum leap in Someone you've worked with.

One of the athletes I work with at Boston College, name is Troy Bell. He's a point guard. I think he owes the record in B C for the most points scored. Troy. As a sophomore

We were playing in the biggest he he got biggie player of the year. He was co player of the year with Murphy from Not today. It's junior year.

It was kinda oaky doke. Then he came back and they seen it again and he won play of the year outright. And as a matter of fact You saw where his game was going. He was increasing

And then it just took off and January and the senior year he just went to a whole other level. With his play so much so that Sports Illustrator came and interviewed him. When they told me, says you out you know, work with George and

You know, just a mental game is all that stuff. that we were working on all of a sudden It just took off. In a linear perspective, you say one plus one equals two. But in a nonlinear

Well right brain, if you're left right handed. One plus one equals six. You get a jump. So that happened with Troy. The team he was playing on, Boston College Eagles.

I'll skin his team who was my roommate from college. When yeah. He was six and twenty one. Six wins, twenty one losses. The next year the team was eleven and nineteen. And out of those nineteen losses, twelve

Losses came in a row. When they lost in the last possession of the game. The next year A same team which You played sixteen games in the league, so

Big ease. You play sixteen games that first year when they were eleven and nineteen It won three games and last third team. The next year

They won thirteen games the last three, so they was twenty seven and five. It kept going and then it just t took off. I could say the same thing. Same thing about the the Bulls, you know, when they won seventy two games. You know, they struggle, they go through it, then you take off. You chip away at it, but

Because flow motion gets you there quicker or like the tortoise in the hair, you just keep doing what's in front of you. You you stay in locked in. You stay ent enthusiastic, you do what you have to do. Then something happens. It happens a lot of the time. You just break out. You have a breakout because You're not just improving, you're looking and these guys had The vision. So that team that was

twenty seven and five. That year we had What they call uh European trip. So we're in the gym in August. Before they go and

I'm hanging around, I'm listening, and the guys just saying, You know, we've been getting beat by forty By all these teams. Any team that comes in here this year, we're gonna beat'em by twenty. That's self image. That's a shift in consciousness. Right, and it's very concrete too.

Very specific. Yeah, and you know what their record was that year? Seventeen and oh and they won by twenty two and a half points. I'd be curious to know. Is since you've

Sort of tracked. Yourself and your Sort of development. over a long period of time. If you look back at the younger George say in the first year of working with high level athletes

Is there any advice that you would Give him now, just with the benefit of hindsight. I would tell him that focus on Self observation. Teaching them how to observe their experience in a uncritical way.

Where they can start to see okay. If I'm shooting free throws, let's just talk about shooting free throws. Mm-hmm. When I go up and I shoot a free throw, I wanna be able to observe Or what happened?

You know, I missed a free throw. A lot of times people say, Shoot, I missed a free throw. I want them to be able to say, Okay, so I'm observing it. So when I shot the free throw, what did I notice that was off? Did I use my feet? Did I keep my elbow in? Did I stick it? And it's just a matter of like, okay, so what do I need to change? Okay, I need to stick it next time. If you go back to Michael Jordan Playing in nineteen ninety eight against the Utah Jazz.

In the fourth quarter he was shooting shots and they were short. Yeah. So what adjustment did he make? So when he shot the shot, he stuck it. Can you explain sticking it to people visually, right? That's more extension through the wrist. Yeah. But it's it's really more like sticking it like this, like like follow through.

Follow through. Right. What he did was he made the adjustment my shot is short. So to get it up I have to Give it up and stick it. So you see in real time he'll make an adjustment, but how does that

Work. So I talk about the four A's. So the four A's have to do with awareness. The kind of awareness that you could just notice You know, this uncritical, it's mindfulness. You just notice like Merrormind, you're you're aware of What happened? Okay, I'm shooting my jump shot and it's flat.

Then the acceptance of it. That's the hot challenging part. Because sometimes we say Oh man, you know I Just rush it or whatever, you're not taking responsibility for it and saying, Yeah, I don't like it. It sucks. It feels bad. But once I embrace it and say, This is what happened. This is No the tooth and two shall make you free.

You know that it was short. And then with the compassionate action. Passionate action is what? Okay. What do I need to do to fix it? I need to stick it. That's all I need to do is just follow through.

Mm-hmm. Then the assessment afterwards. Is so there's awareness Acceptance, which is a big challenging thing. Action?

Compassionate action. An assessment. What worked, what didn't work. And then Then go back. to it. So if you're practicing meditation, you're sitting and you notice that

You're sitting, but your mind keeps thinking about let's do what happened to a lot of people. I'm listening to a song on the radio like they say Sh Stop Me Up by McJag or whatever. And you heard it on the radio and you're in your meditation and they start me up. And it keeps going. And the more you try to avoid it, it keeps staying there. Then you go through the sitting and you say, Well, the whole time I was struggling with this damn song, I couldn't get rid of it.

The awareness is This song or this it could be a a thought pattern or whatever. Or could be something we're worried about, like somebody sick and we're worried about how the operation went or something like that. So the instructions are when you get distracted, just go back to your breath. Will be with the body. But you spend all the time doing that, but it's a struggle.

And it's hard to do it. The awareness of that, then the acceptance is yeah, I couldn't do it. But then the compassionate action is okay, so George, what do you do? Here's what I teach. So if this becomes so much of a distraction instead of fighting it.

Just turn your attention towards it. Mm-hmm. And that becomes the object. Mm-hmm. What is this? And so by not

Resisting it by looking at it then you know so what is it? What does it feel like? You know, this song. You know what does it feel like in my body? What is it? Why is it this song is staying there? Maybe it's just something about Stop Me Up, uh Jimi Henry, who knows? You know. Or you know, the power of love. Well, it could be whatever it is. But then we look at it, but we just notice that it's just singing.

And we just instead of Resisting it, we we turn attention to it. And we open it up. Okay, what is this? And you just let it be there, acceptance. And then by doing that, you notice that

You'll calm down. And then because all you're doing is taking this Instead of being attached to this Object. You just take whatever comes up. Okay, this is the let's just go with that.

Note your song? You just focus on that and you will still get concentrated because you focus on one thing. Mm-hmm. So that's where You know, the awareness, the acceptance, but if I'm going through this every day for five days in a row

If it's not that it's something else that I'm struggling. I just can't stay on the object. What I'm gonna do is say I can't do this. This is not for me. I'm not able to do it. Instead of saying no, it's just noticing what's happening, you're distracted and it's instead of fighting it. Just let it become your object of awareness. This is part of the process.

And then when you do that, then you're going to get to this place of calm. Then you can let go and then you can just come back. to wherever you are, but you have to be aware of it. You have to accept that yeah it's happening. I'm I suck as a meditator. That's all judgment. It's awareness without. being critical or without judgment.

And then Well, passionate action is just noticed okay. Let's see where the mind takes us'cause maybe the mind is telling us something and you focus on that. Then you come back and then you notice That there's more ease.

And so then your assessment of it is What work? But didn't work. What did you change? So now you have that ability.

So it could be a sound, it could be uh aching your body. Now you have the same thing. So you're aware of your breathing, but There's this twisting burning and Maybe it's anxiety and you have this tightness in your chest.

And you're like this. So Instead of avoiding that, you open to it, you focus on that and say, What is this? And can I open and can I just breathe and just let it be there? What's the sensation? Okay, so This tightness. But then at some point

It's gonna change, it's gonna dissipate. 'Cause I'm not fighting it. Then I can move on. So that's what I mean by the four A's. Yeah, I like it. I like the foray's and d the you know, the examples that you gave of turning Let's just say what people might consider a problem into the object makes me think of this

It's basically a fortune cookie that I was given at one point to carry in my wallet. Or that I ended up carrying my wallet and it said That which hinders your task is your task. And uh I think it's it's a very helpful framework this for a Especially for beginning meditators because it's so easy without that type of perspective to become very frustrated and to beat yourself up.

Mm-hmm. It's very valuable. Very valuable approach. So thank you for that. Yeah. So can I give you an example, a story that illustrates. Great. So I was working In this prison.

No fork. County House of Correction actually. The little tidbit is there. That's where Marco Max did his time in that prison. I actually saw his jacket. No it's so I used to work there And so I go in there to teach this meditation class.

Or this meditation yoga class, but the meditation class And I have all these copious notes. This is when I was really new. And I was gonna give them a sermon or a lecture or Dhamma talk, whatever you wanna call it. It's gonna be awesome. I got all these notes in there. And everything. So and this also goes into what Bruce Lee talks about, be like water. I go in there.

And then when I get into class I realize that out of Thirty two students, twenty eight of them are Spanish speaking only. So the awareness, the acceptance. Okay, what's the capacity and action? Okay, I got an interpreter, I gotta make this shit real simple. I gotta just just give'em the basic things. Breathe in, breathe out, whatever, you know, it's something about being in the present and what that looks like. And that's when all of notes went out the window.

Yeah. And I just had to just be like what just okay, what is what is here. How can I work with it? Just sur I won't say surrender, I say embrace it. And then generate the whole how what can I do? How can I still have to keep it simple, but I can just show up and do things. And so that applies.

And then we can fast forward to if g you like stories, I'll give you another story. Well, one second, how did that talk Turn out. Turn out great. Yeah.'Cause they got something and I got something. And I realized that What it told me was

Especially working in prison. You had no idea what the hell's gonna happen. You could be doing a crap and then the then the alarm goes off and everybody gets locked out. Right. Right. So how did it go? It went great because I gave them what they could hear. I met them where they were. But the main thing was I wasn't rigid. I wasn't attached to my

Wanting to force something on them. I say okay, they're not gonna be able to hear this, so what can I do? How can I be of service? And so I just went right into it. But I laughed because I said all that preparation and it just kinda goes. And so that's the same thing. So whatever happens

Can we say yes to it? Can we embrace it and then generate the hope. Or say, Okay, what can we do? What's the next place? This is an opportunity for us to figure out what we need to do. And maybe if we don't know Well just start with just sitting.

And just being present. With what's going on. I had a friend of mine, his name is Bo Lozov, he passed away. But he he was doing a thing in prison. And he decided to bring the men and the women together

And when he did that, it was t utter chaos. Exactly. And he was there, and you know what he did? He sat down and meditated right in the middle of the And they all got quiet. He had no idea what the hell to do. So he said, I'm just gonna sit and think about, you know, see what happens. And they all looked at him and said, Well, how could he do that?

So you see what I'm saying? So they and I'm guarantee you if you think about your experience or even the listeners, if you think about a time when you were able to just say, Okay This is what it is. What can I do? How can I relate to it? That's what it is. So awareness Acceptance. Once you accept it, then you can do something about it.

So you're not in denial, you're not blaming somebody, you're saying, Okay This is what it is, how can I do about it? So those four A's can apply. Any time. Anywhere. That's a great story.

What are you most excited about? These days. Personally. Personally I'm excited about The fact that that I get the

Do what I was put here to do. And be a service. And just show up. I'm in this journey of discovery. Where I have no idea what's gonna happen with covet and And all the other things my job is just to sh like I said, to show up.

And to be myself. Which in my case it's I wanna be loving, I wanna be compassionate, but I wanna be helpful. The show up be myself and have fun is like okay, so I'd be like why? So whatever is coming, can I embrace it? and create a container to hold it and at the same time generate

Okay, how can I relate to this in a way that inspires, motivates, moves? Is helpful. Yeah. It is uh there's certainly a world of uncertainty right now. It's a ripe opportunity for practicing a lot of what you discuss. And it's really highlighted how much is outside of our control.

Yes, but at the same time, Hans Salya the guy the the scientists that came up with the stress of life and the stress reaction and all all of that. is his belief and it's also my belief that when the crisis or when this uh challenge That's when our latent abilities express themselves. It's like seeing everything, so we know this that how you can predict how somebody does in a job

Three things. What they call positive genius or optimism and hope. Second thing is social support. And the third thing is Seeing a crisis as a challenge.

And so when we can do that now we generate, we stimulate These latent abilities. So Oh, this is great. This is an opportunity. To show up. And to really be helpful. So that's what I'm excited about is it really doesn't matter what happens on some level. What matters is can I create space between stimulus and response.

And in that space, can I be loving, can I be compassionate, can I be Wise. I make wise choices. And can I live according to what my core values are? Love, compassion.

Connection, that sort of thing. And that no matter what happens I need to train myself so I can keep showing up, but the good news is Because I share I give away what I have, I get more of it.

And if I want to learn something, I teach it. Mm. George I wanna commend you for the work you do in the world and also the fact that you Share what you've learned and your story and the tools, not just

with the celebrities that are known worldwide, but that you've also dedicated a substantial Part of your life. to at risk populations, people who are looking for new ways to change and new chapters and transitions into a better way of being. And I just think that's Really a a manifestation of

Love in you and its beautiful to witness that and to know that there are people like you. Offering that. So I just want to thank you.

Thank you. And it's people like you that that give me a opportunity to share my experience, strength and hope. And it's also Wonderful because I know the impact you've been having. Um folcing continue to have so I wanna say Ditto. to you, but I I'm I'm just happy, man. I'm just happy that that I can

Just be here and have this wonderful conversation about how do we live in the solution, not in the problem. Yeah. How do we access the fact that we are already Perfect whole and complete in terms of being a masterpiece or divine spark. We just don't know it or we don't show it.

I think that is That is an excellent piece to anchor on as we as we come to a close. George, is there anything else that you would like to say? Any question you'd like to pose to the audience or request you'd like to make of people listening before we wrap up? Yes, my wish

for everyone is for everyone to really understand they have a masterpiece and how to Know ourselves so we can be ourselves. So we can express ourselves, so we can share ourselves. So the sharing is really important. And just understanding that we have a masterpiece and I have my book, I have my online course, I have my YouTube channel.

And you have All sorts of Resources My hope is that we all understand that we have to take personal responsibility as an inner game.

And if we don't like what we our experiencing we can change it. But we have to be willing And also not letting blame or denial prevent us from taking responsibility and being able to

to share the focus on the solution. So if we're gonna criticize somebody, it's one thing to say, I don't like this. It's another thing to say it and then give them a option. It's helpful. Very different.

Worlds of different. And that goes for criticizing other people or criticizing yourself. It applies in so many ways. George. People can find you at GeorgeMomford dot com.

Certainly on Instagram. We'll link to all these things in the show notes as well. At George.mumford Twitter. At GT Mumford and they can find the Mindful Athlete course Certainly on your website. Your book is the Mindful Athlete subtitle Secrets to Pure Performance. And to everyone listening, we'll link to everything that we've discussed.

Uh including the YouTube channel and so on. In the show notes at Tim.blog forward slash podcast as per always. And George, thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you. Appreciate you. And to everybody listening, until next time.

Thank you for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com, that's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

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