#437: Secretary Madeleine Albright — Optimism, The Future of the US, and 450-Pound Leg Presses

Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. So another person. No seen it. A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal empty scale. No

This episode of the Tim Ferriss Show is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time. If I could only take one supplement, what would it be? The answer is inevitably athletic greens. I view it as and a lot of you now view it as all in one nutritional insurance. I recommended it way back in 2010 in the four hour body, and I did not get paid to do so. I've been using it since before that. And I use it in a lot of different ways. I travel with it to avoid getting sick or to help mitigate the likelihood of getting sick. I take it in the morning to ensure optimal performance and overall It covers my bases if I can't get what I need from whole food meals throughout the rest of the day.

And if you want to give Athlet Greens a try, they're offering a free twenty count travel pack for first time users. I nearly always travel with at least three or four of these one dose bags. In other words, if you buy Athlet Greens as a first time buyer, you now get For a limited time, an extra seventy nine dollars in free product. So check out the details at atleticgreens.com forward slash Tim. Again, that's athleticgreens.com forward slash Tim for your free travel pack with any purchase. This podcast episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Sleep is super important to me in the last few years. I've come to conclude it is the end all be all that all good things, good mood, good performance, good everything seem to stem from good sleep. So I've tried a lot

I've tried Yeah. all sorts of different mattresses, you name it. And for the last few years I've been sleeping on a Helix Midnight Lux mattress. I also have one in the guest bedroom, and feedback from friends has always been fantastic. It's something that they comment on. He looks sleep. has a quiz, takes about two minutes to complete that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you. With Helix, there's a specific mattress for each and every body. That is your body, also your taste. So let's say you sleep on your side in like a super soft bed.

No problem. Or if you're a back sleeper who likes a mattress that's as firm as a rock, they've got a mattress for you too. Helix was selected as the number one best overall mattress pick of twenty twenty by GQ Magazine, Wired, Apartment Therapy, and many others. Just go to Helix Sleep.com slash Tim Take their two minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. They have a 10 year warranty, and you get to try it out for 100 nights risk free. They'll even pick it up from you if you don't love it. And now, my dear listeners, Helix is offering up to$200 off of all mattress orders and two free pillows at Helix Sleep. dot com slash Tim. These are not cheap pillows either, so getting two for free. is an upgraded deal. So that's up to two hundred dollars off.

And two free pillows at Helix Sleep. Dot com slash Tim That's Helix. H E L I X sleep.com slash Tim for up to$200 off. So

Check it out one more time. Helix H E L I X sleep dot com slash Tim. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. And I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me. On the road. So what is AG1? AG one is a science driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out.

go to drinkage one dot com slash Tim. That's drink ag one, the number one. Drink AG One dot com slash Tim. Last time, drink AG One dot com. Slash Tim. Check it out. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. My guest today, very special guest, is Secretary Madeline K. Albright on Twitter at Madeline M A D E L E I N E

Secretary Albright is a professor, author, diplomat, and businesswoman who served as the sixty-fourth Secretary of State of the United States. In nineteen ninety seven, she was named the first female secretary of state and became, at that time, the highest ranking woman in the history of the US government. From nineteen ninety three to nineteen ninety seven, doctor Albright served as the US permanent representative to the United Nations and was a member of the president's cabinet. She is a professor in the practice of diplomacy at the Georgetown University School of Foreign Service. Dr. Albright is chair of Albright Stonebridge Group, a global strategy firm and chair of Albright Capital Management LLC, an investment advisory firm focused on emerging markets. She also chair the National Democratic Institute. serves as the president of the Truman Scholarship Foundation and is a member of the U.S. Defense Department's Defense Policy Board. In 2012, she was chosen by President Obama to receive the nation's highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, in recognition of her contributions to international peace and democracy. Dr. Albright is a seven time New York Times bestselling author.

Her most recent book, Hell and Other Destinations, was published in april twenty twenty. Her other books include Madame Secretary, subtitle A Memoir, that's her autobiography, The Mighty and the Almighty, subtitled Reflections on America, God and World Affairs, Memo to the President Elect, subtitled How We Can Restore America's Reputation and Leadership, Read my pins, subtitle Stories from a Diplomat's Jewel Box, Prague Winter, subtitle A Personal Story of Remembrance and War, nineteen thirty seven to nineteen forty eight, and Fascism. a warning. Without further ado, please enjoy a very wide ranging conversation with Secretary Madeline. All bright.

I Secretary Albright, welcome to the show. Great to be with you. Thanks. I'm so thrilled to have you on the show. And I thought we could start at the beginning. I do love stories. You have no shortage of stories. And uh I thought we could begin with

the cellar in Notting Hill and the green paint. And that's not gonna mean much to a lot of my listeners, but could you provide context for why that has a special memory and uh a special place in your mind. Well, it was during World War Two. Um, and uh we were in London during the Blitz.

And in order to provide context, my father Was a Czechoslovak diplomat. And when the Nazis marched into Czechoslovakia in March nineteen thirty nine Uh he My mother and I were managed to escape.

And he went to London. in order to join the government in exile. I was two years old. Um and We first lived in a bunch of different places, but ended up

Um in this uh apartment house In Nottinghill Gate before it was fancy. And it had been an apartment house Basically, as I understood it, built for refugees and What happened was that during the blitz the bombing

Um we went down to the cellar. uh which was supposed to be the air aid shelter and spent the night there. And I remember my father at some point saying, Well we have to go down there but it's full of hot water pipes and gas pipes so it's not exactly safe if the building is bombed, but We went down there. So what did happen when I was writing uh one of my books

Crog um winter. Uh, I went back to visit everything to kind of get a sense of where it was. And obviously the apartment was a lot smaller than I remembered it. And I remember asking then also the superintendent of the building Was the cellar still there? And he looked at me like, Are you crazy? Of course the cellar is there. So we went down to the cellar. And I all immediately had one of those

uh recollecti green paint down there and it was the same ugly green paint that I remember from World War Two. So Uh really kind of weird. Um, but it was interesting to be there. uh in that apartment house which was full of refugees at the time, and then to think about where it's now located in a you know, on Kensington Park Road, a pretty fancy part of London.

What Are your strongest memories of your father? Well, I have many, many of them because he was a dominant personality. uh in my life. But My strongest memories are that um

When we came to the United States we Um and he became a professor at the University of Denver. Um all we ever talked about was foreign policy. But the strongest memory which really goes to the kind of person he was.

He had been uh a diplomat, he'd been an ambassador in Yugoslavia. We came to the United States um We were refugees. My mother went to work in the Denver Public Schools as a secretary. А май фатер воз професор а хом.

Um and so Ambassador Corbell Washing dishes. uh and cleaning house. He and I used to do that. uh together and what an incredible person he was in order to be able to make the abnormal seem normal. And he was

obviously the major force in my life, but but all of a sudden from being an ambassador He's washing dishes. But the thing always about him was that he smoked a pipe and so the pipe was always there. Now to most of the people listening, or I shouldn't say most, but certainly if I think back to my childhood

Uh politics was something that I really Only observed in the context of my father getting into maybe dinner time arguments with a visiting uncle, something like that. So we there wasn't much nuance to it from my experience, let's just say. But when when you say foreign policy was this ever present topic of discussion, what might that look like a as a as a as a young woman or as a girl sitting at the dinner table, what does that conversation or what might that conversation look like? Well, it's about America's position in the world and what has to happen, but I need to go back a little further so that there's a little context.

So we were in England during the war and I was little, and then we went to Yugoslavia. uh in nineteen forty five, um when I was eight years old, and my father was the ambassador and Uh, you've probably seen pictures of little girls in airports in their national costume. That's what I did for a living. I gave flowers to people at the airport. Um and then there would be people that would come to the embassy.

of foreign ministers and ambassadors, and then one time the uh pr the ruler of Yugoslavia was Marshall Tito, and I gave him flowers. So I grew up in this kind of a sense of You know, who are these people, what is their role, what Czechoslovakia was a small country. Why were we in Yugoslavia? So this was a constant teaching.

Uh about uh was history Um and how did that evolve to current foreign policy? Because he was a professor, there always was this historical context. So then we come to the United States. And we're refugees and we're living in Denver.

Uh, and my father was teaching. uh for international relations and It was nineteen um Forty eight, forty nine, fifty. During the Cold War.

And so the conversation was always about democracy, believe it or not, you know, kind of how fragile it is. How important America was in the role of And when an America was absent, terrible things happened. So I grew up with this kind of sense about talking what America's role in the world was. Um and uh then I went, believe it or not

Uh when I went to high school I would create an international relations club. And make myself president of it. And make sure that I went to a small private school. That all the girls there had to come and listen to me talk about foreign policy.

And so it was basically about relations in the world, the United Nations. Um and what America was doing and fighting communism. That's uh what I grew up with. So looking at your

History. I mean you You seem to on one hand have been operating in six gear for many, many, many decades. I mean the the homework that I've done just in and of itself is kind of exhausting, so uh and and also fascinating, but it's it's hard to believe one person has done so much. And then on the other hand, I've read And please correct me if I'm wrong, but that you felt like you were in some ways

Uh ten years behind at points uh because of decisions that you made and how long it took for you to get your PhD. Could you could you speak to the latter sentiment? Absolutely. The thing you have to put yourself back I w I kid about this, it just happens to be true that I went to college sometime between the invention of the iPad and the discovery of fire. So it was a long time ago. Um, and even though I went to a women's college, Wellesley

Um and uh in a women's c you know, we had all the leadership roles and I was one of the editors of my newspaper. And I had wanted to be a journalist. And then what

happened was um That This is also old fashioned. I met the man that I married. We were Th there was this thing where somebody that in a fraternity gave you his fraternity pin

kind of pre engagement, so I was pinned. Uh and So our um Graduation speaker was the Secretary of Defense. at the time because his daughter was in our class.

And we all kind of remember the commencement speech differently, but the basic wording was Um your main responsibility is to get married and raise children. So I waited a long time to get married, three days after graduation. And But I did want to be a journalist, and when my husband was in the army, I worked on a small newspaper. in Rawl, Missouri, and then we moved to Chicago where he had a job on a newspaper. Uh we're having dinner with his managing editor and he looks at me and he says, So what are you gonna do, honey?

And I said I'm gonna work her a newspaper. And he said, I don't think so. You can't work on the same paper as your husband because of labor regulations And even though where there were three other papers in Chicago at the time Um He and he said and you wouldn't want to compete with your husband, so go find something else to do.

So I actually saluted and found another job. at uh Encyclopedia Britannica. I usually tell young people It is a book. Uh and um

And I had a lot of fun because Newspaper columns have space at the bottom and I would look up factoids. And send them in to the newspapers. And then we moved to Long Island and I was pregnant. And

Uh I um had twins and I had them prematurely and had to leave them in the hospital, so I started taking Russian. And that made me want to go back to school. And so when The twins when we moved to Washington. Um, and the twins were a year old. I started going to graduate school.

But because I was trying to combine everything I got a master's and Um a PhD. uh and I didn't get my dissertation finished. until nineteen seventy five, seventy six, so it took a very long time.

And I didn't have my first real job job except for the one in The newspaper Uh until I was thirty nine years old. Which meant that I was actually more than ten years uh older than everybody else on Capitol Hill.

And that ten year difference has kind of Stayed with me all through uh my career. Hm. Come back to the

the twins and the premature birth. So just as a quick side note, I was actually also Born premature, six or so weeks premature on Long Island myself. So I was I was on the receiving end, so to speak, in the NICU for quite a long period of time. Uh but that's not my comment. I suppose it's more of a question, and that is how did you choose Russian? Why did you choose Russian. Well, um First of all I have to ask you, were you born in

Uh Nassau County Hospital in Mineola. No, I was born in Suffolk. So uh what happened was I'm I'm Czechoslovak and That is a Slavic language, and I always wanted to learn Russian because Uh partially I was interested in

international relations and particularly interested in the Cold War and a number of aspects. But Uh and it didn't make sense to take first year Russian at Wellesley. Because the Slavic languages are similar. Uh, but I couldn't take second year Russian because I didn't know the alphabet. And so I had wanted and what happened, frankly

This also goes back into old time. One of the things that happened um in the sixties, they Um, didn't have sonograms at that time. Uh and I was fat and they the doctors were really nasty and they said you're so fat. You can't eat.

Um and you have to walk all the time. So we were living on Long Island and I was walking around having Drunk some metric a Metrical is this diet drink and a lot of coffee. And all of a sudden I saw that Hostur College was uh offering Russian for eight hours a day for eight weeks.

And I thought, well, in the summer and I thought, Well, I can't do that because these children I didn't know I was having twins actually for a long time, but Not do until In August, and they appeared prematurely in June. I had to leave them in the incubators and so that's when I took Russian. And so I had so much fun.

surprising my father when he came to visit and talking to him in Russian. So But I just have to tell you the problem of the language is there's always a story about a Czechoslovak um military person after World War Two who went to Russia And he wanted to tell them that they had a beautiful life. And so he said Uvasjes krasni živak, which in Russian means you have a red stomach.

Which is the reason that you can't just go from one Slavic language to another. When you then had your first job job at thirty nine. Uh, could you describe for people what that was and What

in your experience contributed to landing you in that job. Well, my story just generally is how one thing led to another, and so Just to give you a little bit of context, when we came to Washington and I um what had happened was we first came in sixty two, sixty three, then moved back to Long Island.

When I did most of my work on my PhD. And then came back to Washington. in nineteen sixty eight and I was working on my dissertation and my twins We're in second grade.

Um and I had a m another a little baby with that. Um And so um I began to do a bunch of other things. Volunteer work. Um and I was became chairman of the board of a private school in Washington. um associated with the national cathedral.

Um and I got a reputation for being able to fundraise. So the thing that happened Um literally was the person that I had fundraised with was a man From Maine.

Uh and then in nineteen seventy two when Ed Muskie was running for president. This man had been asked to to do it was a by the way, this will blow your mind. Um it was the most expensive fundraiser ever given in Washington. At a hundred and twenty five dollars a person. Uh uh co chair with him.

And then what happened was that the whole thing um had been uh undermined by the dirty tricks of Nixon. It's a long story, but it was uh so that was my first experience with that. And then I did a bunch of different fundraising.

While And volunteer work while I was finishing my dissertation. And then when President Carter, Governor Carter was running Um and I was with Ed Muskie, who at the time was one of the vice presidential candidates. Um

uh actually that's when Walter Mondale became the vice presidential candidate and somebody from Ed Muskie staff went to work with him. And so Uh Muskie asked me to come and be on his staff. And having the PhD made a difference because then he could say this is doctor Albright. Rather than my friend Madeline.

Um and I became his chief legislative assistant, and so That's how one thing led to another. And then the other big leap that was interesting I had gone to Columbia And my one of my professors was Vignew Brzeżinski.

Um and President Carter names him as his national security advisor. So Burzenski calls me up and he said, Madame, perhaps you've heard that I've been named national security adviser and I said, Yes, I have and he said, Well can you find me a place to live? And I said, Geez Big, I thought you were calling to offer me a job. And he said, No, I'm calling to ask you to find me a place to live.

So I found him a place to live. But two years later he did offer me a job and so I went to work at the National Security Council. for uh President Carter. So but my whole life is like one thing leading to another. And that's why when people ask me How things happen.

Um and do you have the background to do it? I was dependable. When somebody asked me to do something, I actually did it and I didn't think things were beneath me and Um and I loved every minute of it, and one thing led to another. So it worked out.

Well it's it seems like you're also very good at the ask. And uh and if we look at fundraising, I mean that is a that is a valuable skill in so many different areas. What made you a good fundraiser? I think what made me was that I believed in what I was fundraising for. And when I started out it was the school, uh, which was easy. Um and then the candidates that I've raised money for are people

that I really believe in and Um I love politics. And so um I can explain what the policies are and what the connection is and why you need to have X person elected and so

Um, it really is something Yeah. I'm not asking for money for myself and I think that makes a difference. I'm really doing it on behalf of either causes or people that I believe in.

Hm. And Why did after finding housing for your former professor, did you get offered a job two years later? Did you follow up? Did he find a memo with your name and contact information two years later? How did that come to come to pass? It's interesting because Uh and life is really crazy. Because I was an older student, uh

I did he and I became friends, and I also became friends with his wife. who was a couple of years older than I am, and believe it or not. Is check. Uh Yeah.

She was in peace. of the Czech of the president of Czechoslovakia vanish. She had also gone to Wellesley. So We had kind of G just got to know each other as we say socially. And

They I have a farm and they would come out to the farm and And then also I did begin to um What was interesting He wanted Brzezinski wanted me to help.

With Foreign policy issues Um on Capitol Hill. And so I think he asked around about, you know, what was I doing?

And they wanted to make sure that This had to do with the Panama Canal and a number of different issues that were foreign policy issues during the Carter administration. And he wanted to have somebody that understood Congress and understood foreign policy. And so because my life really is crazy

He asked me to come down to the White House. And I'm sitting in his office. And who walks in but Walter Mondale? And so Rzinsky says to Walter Mondale, I'm interviewing Madeline to see whether she wants to come and do

congressional relations for me. And Mondale says, and you couldn't do better than that. Um, but one of the things I had done On fundraising was When uh Muskie didn't win the democratic nomination in seventy two, McGovern did.

And I didn't know any of the McGovern people. But I knew the Mondale people, and Mondale was He had been appointed a senator, and then he was running for the Senate. And so they asked me To come and help him.

And so I was in the only happy place for a democrat in November seventy two was in In Minneapolis with Walter Mondale, and I had raised money for his campaign. So it literally There's always some connection of one thing to another, which is why as I say I always tell people Do what you're

You've been asked to do because your reputation follows you everywhere. and teaching come into the picture. What happened was um I live in George town. About two blocks away. From the university.

And I when I was doing my research for my dissertation and various things, I'd go to the library. uh there and Then also what happened was That

I was in the Carter administration until we left in nineteen eighty one. And a there was a man that was Dean Of the school. Um and Believe it or not.

He was somebody that was a student at Harvard when I was at Wellesley. And he had married one of my College classmates. That was one connection and then another one that was another dean there had been

in the intelligence community during the Carter administration and we had somehow crossed paths. And what had happened was that Georgetown was a single sex school. Um and when it went co ed They didn't have that many women professors.

And so I was actually initially funded by a foundation to be a role model, you know, to work with the in a co ed situation with women students And so that's what I was hired to do. I did have a PhD, but I'd never taught.

Um and I then ultimately uh went on tenure track there. And taught regular courses. And To speak of what one thing led to another.

So I did work for various democratic presidential candidates and one was Michael Dukakis, the governor. Of Massachusetts. So this man who was the governor of Arkansas comes up to Boston in order to prepare Michael DeCakis for

the debates and it was Bill Clinton. And we had the Georgetown connection. So let's talk about that Georgetown. First chapter of teaching for just a moment. I've read And I you can't believe everything you read on the internet, so feel free to confirm or or deny, but

that you found teaching at least at times difficult and lonely. I don't know if that's true, but could you describe what your first few weeks or few months of teaching were like. Yes, and I wanna go back to something of my father washing dishes'cause it all One of the things

When we came to the United States, as I said, my mother was a secretary in the public schools and she would work Get up early, go downtown, do it, come home, was exhausted. You know, and we do the dishes. And my father was a professor and I have I so well remember saying Mother works so hard and you only teach three hours. Um a couple times a week.

So uh All of a sudden I become a professor and I realize That that is not the story. And that you really have to work hard. Um in terms of teaching and obviously doing all the research.

But you you do do it alone, ultimately. You're standing up in front of a class By yourself. And There were a couple of things I team taught, but mostly I did If by myself and you are then

responsible for what you are telling people and teaching and And you have to base it on facts. I don't think you can uh brainwash or you know, bluff people when you're teaching. And it is lonely in that particular way. And So for me also there was an additional part

I had just been divorced, but And it was the first time. that I could talk about I instead of we and trying to get used to to being in a in an entirely different setting professionally. I mean it really was a different than being on Capitol Hill and

And so it was a combination of doing a lot of a very different things all of a sudden and getting used to an independent life. My uh kids were uh grown I mean, my youngest daughter was at home, but The others had gone off to college and so It was a matter of having a very, very different life.

It turns I loved it in the end, but it took me a while. to not be nervous teaching and Try to figure out how to be with this whole new group of people.

At that point in time when you were teaching, did you have a long term plan for your career and you knew that your teaching would likely end at a certain point in time? Or were you for each of these chapters more doing the best job you could And assuming that doors would open as a result of doing the best job you could. I I'd just love to hear how you thought about doing what was in front of you versus Or maybe in combination with longer term planning at that point in your life.

I have to tell you frankly, there was no longer term planning. What I thought I liked the teaching because Um I I like the subjects. I do um We've already made this clear.

That I'm the perfect daughter. Uh and and I always did whatever my father wanted me to do. Um and I had seen And he used to say the following thing.

regularly when we came to the United States, he said Uh there is nothing better than being a professor in a free country. Um and so I thought great, I'm teaching international relations. I was teaching Classes on

to some graduates and some undergraduates in terms of US Soviet relations or things that really made a lot of sense for what I had trained for. I liked it. There were a lot of good people there. But one of the things about Georgetown

is it is a school of international relations, a school of foreign service that also likes when their professors are um they call practitioners, people that have been in the government and So it didn't seem, you know, really crazy when I was asked to Um I worked in the Mondel Ferraro campaign. Um I traveled with Geraldine Ferrara, the first woman vice presidential candidate.

And I would do political things while I also was teaching. So I was able to kind of combine the various things I wanted to do. I thought I would be teaching. you know, for uh as long as Um I could

But I also At some stage hoped I would be in the government again. I didn't know what But I clearly worked in campaigns.

with the idea that at some point I might be in the government again. But it never occurred to me at the kind of level that I ended up. So at that point in time when you're thinking to yourself, at some point I would like to go back into government When you were just Maybe daydreaming or ruminating over

You know, a glass of tea or wine or coffee or what have you. What was perhaps the biggest dream that you dare dream for yourself in government at that point in time? Was there Any Sort of pinnacle. Hypothetically speaking, that you had in your mind? Well, not really. I mean, I thought I wanted to do something interesting. And I saw myself

Uh perhaps as an assistant secretary of state. I didn't actually want to be an ambassador because I like living in the United States. Uh and So

But I did think and then There was a certain moment Um When um there had been a A woman deputy секретарі в стай.

Um and I remember some passing thought that Goodness, that would be nice. But it never occurred to me. um that I would have a really high level job. What did happen was Uh and then this is so funny. I had worked

in practically every presidential campaign in some role or another. The only one I really didn't work in was Bill Clinton's. And the reason was that at that time I was also By the way, I never do just one thing. Uh I was also Um the president of a think tank, the Center for National Policy.

um which was uh bipartisan and so Um I did I did that during the ninety two campaign. Uh and again because there always some connection One of my students from Georgetown.

was working for Bill Clinton. So All of a sudden She sends me this memo. Where the he had won the presidency.

And that Uh a memo with people's names. that should be in the administration, and the only name that was checked off was mine. And so I thought well that's interesting. And so Um I did I then was asked

to run the transition for the National Security Council. When President Clinton uh won. So I was the first uh person to come into the White House and I Went back and worked at the National Security Council. uh area where I which I had left in nineteen eighty one.

And I worked on that transition. Which is when I was trying to f I knew I'd get something, but I I didn't know what. And so What happened is Like it was already December fifth and nobody had called me.

And I went to work on a Sunday and I kept checking my phone every five minutes. And Warren Christopher who was running the transition he's uh there was a message saying Where have you been? Hall. And so I call him and he said.

Get your taxes and go and see. This man Chuck Ruff and get yourself vetted and come down to Little Rock tomorrow and don't tell anybody you're coming. So that's what happened. So I I'd like to ask your help defining a few terms that for people who are not immersed in in politics, they might in fact uh have some difficulty defining so the the first maybe I'll just I'll lead with this is a quote that I enjoyed and you can tell me if this is accurate or not, but this is from a speech at Harvard Forum, apparently. Quote When we're trying to solve difficult national issues, it's sometimes necessary to talk to adversaries as well as friends. Historians have a word for this

Calling diplomacy. ruminated on that a bit. I I enjoyed that, but I I realized that perhaps taking a step even further backwards How should people who are politically naive. Think about politics.

I know this might seem like a stupid question, but like what are politics or how do you encourage people to think of what that means? Yeah. Politics. Is really the way uh people talk to

Their governments. You know, if you go back and you you look at the Greek and uh Roman philosophers. I mean it is it is the language to that you have in order to express your views to the leaders of a country. So Part of all it whether it's politics or diplomacy or whatever

is Partially being able to do it. to express what you want to the powers that be. Um, and I'm very glad you asked about diplomacy because I have to tell you, I now do teach at Georgetown now.

And I say foreign policy is just trying to get some country to do what you want. That's all it is. So what are the tools? So my course is called the National Security Toolbox. And there are not a lot of tools in the toolbox. And the major ones are diplomacy.

bilateral and multilateral and then economic tools like trade and aid and sanctions. And then various ways of talking about the use of force. and intelligence and now I've added cyber. So

But diplomacy And it's very interesting because there are all kinds of great definitions of diplomacy. Um and that it is the language That was used by the nobleman.

that were representing their countries during the monarchies, et cetera. And then they're all the kind of Sarcastic ones. Like um it's uh lying on behalf of your country. Or

One of my favorite ones. is actually from one of my former colleagues, the French Foreign Minister, who said is the way that you can have a language to talk to monsters. So the bottom line it is the language um that is there in order to Talk about your nation's national interest with somebody who's trying to talk about theirs.

And one of the things that I do in class Is it's absolutely essential. To put yourself into the shoes of the person that you're talking to. to know what it is they want. And diplomacy is the way to find out.

So is diplomacy in effect another word for Negotiation. Without use of the other tools in the toolkit, or is it verbal negotiation in conjunction with the other tools and the toolkit that you mentioned. Well, uh the way I teach the class it is

the way to talk, but you do need to think about the other tools and the Art of state craft. Frankly, is trying to figure out How you combine the tools. And and I think the hard part and it it's uh

at the basis of what you're asking, which is Do you talk to countries that you disagree with? And how do you get through talking about things you agree with before you get to the ones you disagree with. what kind of order do you put it in, but it is a it's a tool. It's how to talk.

Um and then you figure out how to use the other tools with it. But it is the most bread and butter of the tools. It is the basic aspect of it. Um and countries even that don't have a lot of uh strong economies or Um nobody cares whether they trade with them or not.

Um they still have diplomats and diplomacy, and so it's the language is what it is. Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and then we're right back to the show. First up Helix sleep. Sleep is the end all be all for me. Of all of the things you could optimize, it is probably the most important. I've been sleeping on a Helix Midnight Lux mattress for years now. Lux spelled L-U-X E and

And I have another one in the guest bedroom. The feedback from friends has always been fantastic. Helix is offering up to two hundred dollars off of all mattress orders and two free pillows at helixsleep.com slash Tim. That's Helix H E L I X sleep.com slash Tim for up to two hundred dollars off. Second and last I get asked all the time, if you could only use one supplement, what would it be? My answer is usually Athletic Greens, my all in one nutritional insurance. I've used it for more than a decade, hard to believe. As a listener of the Tim Fair show, you'll get a free twenty-count travel pack valued at$79, with your first order at atleticgreens.com slash Tim. That's athletic greens dot com slash Tim. So I'm gonna delve into a subject that no doubt you've spoken about ad nauseum, so I'm gonna apologize in advance. But a a number of my friends were insistent, male and female. They they wanted to know

Um How you thought about navigating Say entering a room with foreign leaders who are accustomed to dealing with male representatives, perhaps they have vodka and cigars and any number of other sort of expectations as to what their interactions would normally look like. uh with the foreign emissaries.

And I apologize if this isn't a good question, but I'm also curious if If that was intimidating or how you thought about navigating those waters. Well, let me just say that When uh I mean all the jobs I've had where I've basically been the only woman, that's the

Ten year part. Whether I was on Capitol Hill. Uh or then came to the White House. And there were not a lot of women. Around.

And one of the things that When I started teaching, having been in the Carter Whitehouse. I was trying to explain to my co ed groups Basically you wouldn't have had this experience, but women

When you're there in a room by the only one, you think to yourself Well, I'd like to say something and then you think no, it'll sound stupid, so then you don't say it. And then some man says it and everybody thinks it's brilliant and you're really mad at yourself for not having said something. So with that experience I go to an and teach. And I and I developed my own little saying which is

Women have to learn to interrupt. Uh, and if you're going to interrupt, there's a different process I called it active listening. Um where you know you're gonna say something and But you have to know what you're talking about. And you have to have a strong voice to do it.

So I said to my students, both the men and the women, that nobody in the class could raise Their hands. That they all had to interrupt. My classes were a bit of a zoo. So I had this whole mantra. So then I get to the UN.

In ninety three. and I'm a member of the secur uh UN Security Council. Um and the only woman. There are fifteen members and there are fourteen men sitting there staring at me. And um I think to myself Well, I I don't think I'll talk today.

It's not in all in that fancy room. There's kind of a back room and And I thought I'll see if they like me or If they respect me and then all of a sudden I see the sign in front of me that says United States. And I thought to myself, if I don't speak today, the voice of the United States will not be heard. So after all that tutoring

Um, I had that experience and I did learn to talk and It helps if you're the United States. At a that particular time. Ah, but it's not easy. Um, and so you try to figure out what the best way is. So when my name came up to be Secretary of State

Somebody said, Yeah, well A woman can't be secretary of state because the Arab leaders won't deal with a woman. So what happened was the Arab ambassadors at the UN got together and they said We had no problems dealing with Ambassador Albright. We wouldn't have any trouble dealing with Secretary Albright. So that went away.

Then somebody at the White House and I never want to know who. said, Yeah, Madeline's on the list, but she's second tier. And so I was sure that I would never get the job. And so uh You know, it it was intimidating in that particular way. But I now know I have to tell you this story.

When I once I was secretary of state Uh what happened often was that First lady Hillary Clinton and President Clinton and I would travel together. And we'd be abroad somewhere at an embassy. and I would introduce her and she would introduce him. So then he told this story.

That during this period of the great mentioning that Hillary would come to him and say, Why wouldn't you name Madeline? She is most in tune with your views, and expresses them better than anybody else, and besides it would make your mother happy. So this is how it happens. Ha ha

So I have a I have a number of follow up questions. The the first is about the art of interruption. There must be a spectrum of ways to interrupt, going from the very indicate and damaging to the more subtle and artful What are good ways to interrupt? Or if you looked at your students, they're not allowed to raise their hands, what are the the better ways to interrupt? Well I think

that the best way is if it actually is germane to what they're talking about. Um and you really do know that you want to say something and um you begin talking. I think one of the parts that I still do, which I also think is a mistake, is to say, I'm so sorry to interrupt or

Um, I apologize. I mean you begin by some introduction and you think why would anybody want to listen to you? But you can't make just a total habit of it and So I do think that What was important that I learned at the UN and by the way This is very interesting when you're the United States and you actually are in a meeting.

And you're supposed to raise your the sign in front of you and you get called on And whether as the United States you speak first. To kind of set the debate. Or last to summarize, or sometimes just in the middle, in order not to be

the one that does everything. And so it was interesting in that time trying to figure out When I would speak. And uh what kind of tone. But it wouldn't always be to disagree. I think one of the things is to find out

uh what I mean you're an instructed ambassador, so when are you gonna say what you're supposed to say? And I teach my students this because we do game simulations now. Who are your allies? Um and so you say, Well As the ambassador of Morocco just said, I would like to

Et cetera, et cetera. So But there were times when I was secretary Um, and I'd have a particularly unpleasant meeting. And uh I was being lectured to. That is one of the things that often happens if you're a woman secretary of state even. And I was in in Serbia.

And the President Milosevich was lecturing me about The Serbs and I said I know about the Serbs. You don't have to tell me about the Serbs. So it's sometimes you Sometimes have to just tell it like it is.

Or What would happen, I have to tell you, when you go someplace And the other person keeps talking. And you have you have something you went to this country to do and say

I would say I have come a long way, so I must be frank. And then I would Start talking. Oh, that's a great line. I I have a A quote again, it may be accurate or inaccurate, so please do let me know. But uh and I'll set the stage for reading it, which is you've interacted with many, many powerful figures of all different types of both genders.

And the quote that I have here, you can tell me if it's a real one or not, is from Time magazine. I think from two thousand six. And it it's I'm not a person who thinks the world would be entirely different if it was run by women. If you think that you've forgotten what high school was like. Is that a quote of yours? And if so, could you elaborate on on what is meant by that. It is accurate.

Um, because I do think that There's always um You know, as the mother of three daughters Um and having been in high school myself. Um

high school is actually pretty nasty. Um in girls schools. I mean, you know, um And we all did that, and so um their uh cliques and um all kinds of things. So I happen to believe that the world is better off when uh men and women work together.

I do think that we have a different approach to things. And and this is kind of I don't want to generalize too much. But basically Um I think women

Um, we're very good at multitasking. because we have to in order to exist. And Um also to kind of Take care of the family and make sure that Children don't fight.

And That kind of a a way of um trying to find compromise in some ways. I think men have the capability of

thinking deeper about one subject different than the multitasking. Women have more peripheral vision as a result of that. And I also think that For war woman to get ahead. You kind of have to be you know, nice to people and and not think about yourself all the time. I think men

have a different way of pushing themselves forward. Women are not like that. But I I do think that there are capabilities and the world is better when we can work together. And I have that's what I've enjoyed. Hm. Thank you for for elaborating on that. And I'd like to ask about your birth name.

And how it changed. I know this seems like a non sequitur, but hopefully I'll be able to tie it tie this together somewhat. But what is your birth name? But I have to tell you this story. Which is that When President Clinton came in and there was a cabinet The cabinet was invited up to Camp David kind of the first week in in January.

And so at the end of a couple of days, President Clinton said to everybody Tell me something about yourself that I don't know. So I said, My name is not Madeline Albright, my name is Maria Yana Korvilova. So my birth name um is uh Maria Yana, which is basically just Mary Jane and Czech.

Uh and for reasons that I mean I was told this story, but I have no idea why it really happened. There was a play in Pra at the time. Called Madeline in the Brick Factory. And

For some reason my grandmother liked the name. Mudland. Because she had an accent. Uh and my mother had an accent. My name was Mudland. And I had no idea what kind of a name it was.

And after I had been When we were in Yugoslavia, my father I didn't Didn't want me going to school with communists. And so I had a governess. And I got ahead of myself and in Europe you can't go to the next level until you're a certain age. So they sent me to school in Switzerland.

I didn't speak French. I was in the French part of Switzerland. They wouldn't feed me unless I said it in French. Anyway, I learned French and so they said You don't know how to spell your own name. You have to spell it M A D E L E I N E. And now that's my name.

But it's still not my legal name. Wow. All right. I d I uh glad I asked. And That's just a a segue to lead into a question about being Secretary of State. And I I've heard a a friend of mine who's involved in government describe it as being the face of the United States to the rest of the world. as as you're aware, and perhaps some of my listeners may not be, but a very, very high post. And I'd be curious to know If you think

Being a refugee. being from uh being born in a country outside the United States has been an asset or a handicap in any way. in serving as Secretary of State. I have to say no, and by the way, the first person to call me

When I was named? Was Henry Kissinger. And he says, Madeline, you have taken away my one unique characteristic of Secretary of State of being A refugee. And I said, No, Henry, I don't have an accent.

So and he then introduced me. And he said, Welcome to the fraternity and I said it's not a fraternity anymore. But I have to tell Um it is a great job. It was Thomas Jefferson's job, and so Um

My favorite thing to do ever was is to give naturalization certificates. Um and the first time I did it was July fourth, two thousand, at Monticello, Thomas Jefferson's home. And I'm giving I gave this man his naturalization certificate and as he walks away He says

Can you believe it? I'm a refugee and I just got my naturalization certificate from the Secretary of State. And I go up to him and I say, Can you believe that a refugee is secretary of state? M It is really

My fondest moment. Um I don't think it's a disadvantage. I think Now recently I was asked to describe myself in six words. Um so Worried optimists.

Problem solver. Grateful American. And the grateful American part is determinative in the way that I feel. Uh and the answer to a lot of some of the questions that you asked, you know, what is it like to sit behind the sign of the United States? Um

um the responsibilities that come with that and diplomacy and all those things. So Um From my perspective it's not a uh disadvantage. Worried optimist. Can you elaborate on what you mean by worried optimist?

Well, I usually am better at giving the line, which is people ask me Are you an optimist or a pessimist? So then I say I'm an optimist. Who worries a lot. Um

That's more words. But I I am I am an optimist. Because I so believe in um America and uh the history and um the diversity and the value system.

and the people that uh that I've dealt with and So many reasons to be an optimist, but I worry And I'm worrying more in terms of A lack of full understanding of how the institutions need to work together.

The importance. in the end, very important is about the freedom of the press. The press is absolutely essential, a free press to a functioning democracy. and and also There are divisions in every society.

But when you have leaders who are trying to exacerbate the divisions rather than trying to find unity. Um then it makes me worry. And So I did uh write a book called Fascism a warning.

And I I looked at some of the things that have been happening In Europe. uh with Victor Orban the Hungarian or in Poland and And or what um uh has happened in the Philippines and

uh in Venezuela that there really are leaders who are trying to divide their countries and so that's what worries me a lot. You mentioned uh Fascism a warning and in that book you list uh a number of questions that people can ask themselves in evaluating leaders or potential leaders. And uh I'd I'd love to hear you elaborate on one of those, which was do they echo the attitude of Mussolini The crowd doesn't have to know, all they have to do is believe and submit to being shaped. Could you explain that or or say more about that?

Yes, I mean uh Mussolini was the first fascist. Um and it's very interesting to Uh kind of follow the things. That he said or did but What really happened was there were divisions in the Italian society and also the Italians had felt

disrespected. They had fought on the side of the Allies during World War One, but were not really recognized enough on that. And so he was able to kind of interpret facts in his own way. By the way, um he um

Uh did talk about draining the swamp. uh and being a stable genius. But the best quote in the whole book is from Mussolini. Which is if you pluck a chicken One feather at a time.

Nobody notices. And so there's a lot of feather plucking going on right now. And and you can't say those two words together too quickly, but I I do think. That that is what that statement is about. You know, to kind of

Pluck one feather. And and uh that the people don't really know. Um until the chicken is bald. What can we do and by we that could mean

Citizens could mean me, could mean uh policymakers I'll let you define we, but what can we do to protect Freedom of the press. What are things that can be done or that that you would hope to see done? Well, first of all, one of the things when I was talking about that book I said You know, we all have uh the see something, say something.

I added to that do something. And I I think that it's very important to question the rule of law, you know, whether our leaders respect the rule of law. And whether um there is not a deliberate decision to divide the population.

And to disrespect uh what other people are saying. But I think that the freedom of the press is essential and I am worried about it. because uh what has happened

Is there it it's hard Because so many people get their news through their own echo chamber. And then the uh kind of classic newspapers or uh channels.

Are derided by uh kind of saying Fake news. But I think it's very important for people to understand. It's not easy to find out exactly what the truth is.

uh especially uh it this has been going on a long time, but But I think that it's important to look at a lot of different sources. But also to try to follow Uh what is written, how the research is done, can it be validated so that it's not there's nothing that's made up. And this is a particularly hard time.

And I think that the terrible thing is to call the press the enemy of the people. It's the opposite. By the way, when I was a genuine academic, um I wrote my dissertation. on the Czechoslovak press in nineteen sixty eight.

The Prague Spring. And I've always been interested in the role of information in political change uh there's always some new kind of method of information and it has affected how people think. And so I think we need to know where people get their information.

Uh how does it jibe with what we ourselves know To be true, people know a lot. It just may not be exactly stated that way. But I think it's information and the a free press Is the lifeblood of a democratic society.

What does your and this this again might might seem like an odd left turn, but I'm gonna I'm gonna take it anyway. You are clearly very sharp still. You've been Prolific. in what you have packed into your years, especially when you consider, as you put it, having your first job job at thirty nine. Uh I've read that exercise is important to you. Could you speak to your self-care practices? What allows you to keep

This sort of high octane car running. at such a high speed for so long. Well I I do have a lot of energy and you You have been kind not to ask this, but What happened when I left my job

I was really fat. Because I was eating for my country. Um and so uh I decided that I really did have to by the way, when I was younger I really did exercise a swam. I was a good swimmer and Did all kinds of things, played tennis. But uh while I was in office I have to say I I didn't do as well.

So I I found a trainer and I really did set kind of, you know. uh aerobic and weightlifting and all that. And what I really got good at, you're gonna laugh. is uh leg pressing. I could leg press four hundred and fifty pounds.

Um then of course it really was not a smart thing to do'cause uh my back began to take a toll. But I have until Now having not been able to um go to see my trainer I really have to the best of my ability.

Exercise three times a week. I now Am doing um some Four exercises to Build up my cork.

and I uh walk around my garden. So but I do believe in exercise. I I really do. Um and it's been a literally a life saver. What do your mornings look like? Do you have any morning routines? Does your morning look somewhat consistent day to day? Well it did until this So Um

Mide routine and everything kind of goes back to habit. So back to my life when my children were little and I was writing my dissertation. I would get up every morning at five in order to do the work before they got up. So um I'm a I'm a morning person. So the thing that I did when I was in office was

Would be to get up Uh Five o'clock and Read the newspapers that uh were delivered and then kind of get my act together and

Go into the office. Where I would This is the only thing I miss about not being in office, which is the intelligence in the morning. Because y y I'd come into my office and there'd be a folder there.

From the inner the uh intelligence section of the State Department. And then the CIA person would come in and I'd get to read it. You know, people now know about the PDB, the president's daily brief, and What it was all based on and

So uh my morning would be to get up um and read and then get dressed and go to the office. And to this day. what I do is get up early in the morning and I read The newspapers.

Um, and then I get my act together and I go and exercise and then I come home and then I start all over getting my act together. But I but I do get up early and I enjoy that time early in the morning to read. Do you drink coffee or caffeine or do you not? I do drink coffee. I'm trying not to drink as much coffee. How do you have your coffee? I know this seems like minutia, but uh just black, yeah. So you uh in the stories that I've read, many stories, you seem unflappable under what most people would consider duress, whether that's facing some angry group of people overseas or sitting in a very tense

negotiation, you seem to have a pervading sense of calm. Is that something that you developed? Is that innate? Is that something that you absorbed through Parents or teachers, where did that come from? Well I

The truth is I don't know. I mean I think that Um, I really in this last book Um I've decided the following thing that My parents really did have the most incredible influence on me. M. And I begin by talking about

World War Two. And that how they behaved because we we're talking about what it was like living in London. Um, during the blitz. And that they were able

to um they had no control over the bombs that were falling. The only thing they had control over was their mood and their behavior. And that's something that I saw throughout. 'Cause they went through an awful lot of changes. um from up and down and um different countries and

different political systems. And they did the same thing when we came to the United States, and so I am feeling And I always did, is that I could uh I couldn't control the things that were happening to a great extent, uh, because sometimes

There were unintended consequences to various decisions. But I could control my behavior. And that's certainly something that is true right now because I don't have control over the virus. I only have control over my behavior and I think that is part of that that has been kind of my lodestar.

The thing that is very strange for me, and I have to And this has to do with the age issue. I have in this uh the reason I wrote this last book was to you know to show that I'm still alive. Um, and I kinda thought about after life and whatever.

And it did take me a long time to find my voice and I'm not gonna be quiet. And I and I've been fighting gravity in terms of age. So this is the first time That all of a sudden I'm very conscious. Of my age.

Because that is what the subject is. Um, if I were not as old as I am, I wouldn't be In the You know, the group that is Threatened or whatever.

When and it's ironic that I should have a book about fighting age just at the time. When all of a sudden there's no way to deny that I'm in the elderly group or whatever we call it. Um And so it's kind of a a ironic is the only word I can think of. Can you describe the the title? So Hell and Other Destinations.

Where does the title come from? Well the tit title and again everything is based on my own experience. Um the most famous thing I ever said was that there's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other. It was so famous it ended up on a Starbucks Cup. It it came from that period, now that you've asked me everything.

when my twins were little and I was going to graduate school and working on then later on my dissertation. I had the hardest time with other women. who would say to me, ver we're very judgmental of each other, who would say to me, Why are you in the library instead of uh waiting for your children or being with your children.

Or my holiday sauce is so much better than yours. And just kind of you know, uh judgmental. And so I then thought That or The only woman in the room thing.

that there's some women that wanted to the queen bee. Kind of syndrome. If there's only gonna be one woman it's gonna be me and not you. And so That's when I really did think it w that I do think that we're very we're not supportive of each other. We are um, very judgmental of each other or

do something else which is kind of project our own sense of inadequacy. On other women. For instance, when I was travelling with Geraldine Ferraro Um, I remember being somewhere and some woman comes up to me and says, How can she talk to a Russian? I can't talk to a Russian. Well, nobody was asking.

this woman to talk to a Russian. So um I think There's that. So that is was the genesis of of the book. now that it's out, it's a much more uh relevant and scary title than I had thought. I wasn't writing about what's going on now, the pandemic and and everything. And so um I think it's

Quite Germane. And I think we need to find other destinations. Where we can be problem solvers with what's going on and tell the truth. So thinking of Mortality

And Uh also you mentioned a name earlier, Thomas Jefferson. He he was a big fan of the the stoics, Seneca predominantly, I think, Marcus Aurelius also. Um are do you have any favorite writers or philosophers, uh thinkers who have who have influenced you Well, I d I do think having kind of, you know, a classic education I Um have uh

um obviously been very moved by Plato and Aristotle, but also I really do think Somebody that I find very interesting, not a philosopher, but to Tokville because of his descriptions of the United States and the the way that he um in many ways understood An awful lot.

And I do think that In terms of Authors I do like Tolstoy on War and Peace. I'm just not a fatalist the way Tolstoy is, but

But I think he's very interesting. And then I have to say And this won't surprise you. One of my favorite writers is Vácil Havel. Um Or why he j he was somebody I never thought That I would get to know. We got to be very good friends.

Um and he did practical theater of the absurd but he also uh was a philosopher. He really was a philosopher king. in so many ways. And so I love reading his things. I do like

reading about and reading the writings, the federalists and things like that. I mean, I love American history. How do you think about what you'd like to accomplish in your life looking forward. And uh you know you're talking about age And uh our finite time here.

on the planet, at least standing on our own two feet. What is it that you hope to accomplish and how do you think about I suppose life and mortality, these are big questions, I realise. Well, I know uh I'm finally instead of saying if I die Uh I'm beginning to assume that at some point there it's a win, not

Um And but I do think that Um This is going to be a very important time as we This will end at some point.

And what I wanna do, and this goes back to my to do list. is spend and and why I like teaching and why For me, um I've off said there's no speech or book ever written that doesn't quote Robert Frost. So you know And his the quote that I've liked is The older I am, the younger are my teachers and And I'm fascinated by this younger generation.

And um By the way, when I Like Of course at Georgetown we do a game simulation. Which is the favorite thing the students do, and of course we couldn't do it in person.

So we did it virtually about two weekends ago. And the students were brilliant, absolutely brilliant, and they took The crisis I'd invented, which was about Venezuela. And a ship that had been seized.

And they turned the crisis into an opportunity to deal with With some of the political issues. That are really out there between Venezuela and Colombia. I also think

that the thing that we've criticized young people for Which is that they're online all the time. And are not as socially adept. Or don't care about privacy. that they have the tools in order how to be in

the post virus time. And So I look forward to teaching more. Um and and I've now spend my I have three grandchildren that are college age and And I plan not to shut up and I feel also very strongly about

Um the role of women. Um, and I think that this is a time that uh by the way I was asked recently in an interview There have been articles about the fact that the countries that have managed to deal with the virus are the ones run by women.

New Zealand and Denmark and Germany and Taiwan and so uh what are the characteristics and so I do think that societies are This goes back to something else we talked about. In every country

Women are at least half the population. And so even though I mean I would say this'cause I'm a feminist, but even The bottom line is Why would you waste the talent of those women?

And so what we need to do, I believe in that democracy is not a spectator sport, and Um, so I'm going to keep pushing. I'm chairman of the board of the National Democratic Institute. I'm gonna talk about democracy. I'm gonna talk about young people. And I am going to Get rid of the worr about being an optimist.

Well, it's it's such a pleasure to spend time with you today. And I know you're you're as busy as ever. Uh certainly uh it's just uh really mind blowing to me to see uh how engaged you are. Uh and your latest book is Hell and Other Destinations. People can find you on Twitter at Madeline. As as you mentioned, the uh the French instructed you at M A D E L E I N E Uh, Secretary Albright, is there anything else you would like to to say or uh share before we close this round one on the podcast? Well you didn't ask me about my pin.

Ah, yes, I should. You know, we're on video and so for the people who can't see it, please tell me about the pin that you have on. Um five of as a You know. Roman And or a B.

And and it comes from the following thing. Which is that during um As I mentioned, we were in London during the war. My father broadcast over BBC. And I listened to BBC as a little girl. And they would open every

broadcast with the first five notes of Beethoven's fifth. With cattle drunk. Da da da dum. Which is Morse code for B. For victory. Oh that's amazing. You know. Well, thank you so much, uh, Secretary Albright. Uh this has been uh a a very enjoyable and thought provoking conversation. So thank you for taking the time. I have to say I don't think I've ever had as much fun in an interview. Thank you so much.

Oh absolutely, I mean it. It was really fun. Thank you. Oh, my pleasure. And uh I will share links to the new book, to everything we spoke about. We'll have very complete show notes for people to explore everything that you've shared at Tim.blog forward slash podcast for everyone. And uh I wish you all the best, much safety, and uh I'm confident that you will find a way to put a slash mark through the worried as you move forward as an optimist. Thank you. Well good luck to you. Stay healthy and everything. Great. Wonderful. Thank you. And to everybody listening. Thank you for tuning in.

And take care. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off. for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

This podcast episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Sleep is super important to me in the last few years. I've come to conclude it is the end all be all that all good things, good mood, good performance, good everything seem to stem from good sleep. So I've tried a lot. To optimize it, I've tried. all sorts of different mattresses, you name it, and for the last few years I've been sleeping on a Helix Midnight Luxe mattress. I also have one in the guest bedroom and feedback from friends has always been fantastic. It's something that they comment on. Helix sleep.

It has a quiz, takes about two minutes to complete that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you. With Helix, there's a specific mattress for each and every body. That is your body, also your taste. So let's say you sleep on your side in like a super soft bed. No problem. Or if you're a back sleeper who likes a mattress that's as firm as a rock, They've got a mattress for you too. Helix was selected as the number one best overall mattress pick of 2020 by GQ Magazine Wired Apartment Therapy and many others. Just go to HelixSleep.com slash Tim, take their two minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. They have a 10 year warranty and you get to try it out. for 100 nights risk free. They'll even pick it up from you if you don't love it. And now, my dear listeners, Helix is offering up to$200 off of all mattress orders and two free pillows at hulixleep.com slash Tim. These are not cheap pillows either, so getting two for free. is an upgraded deal. So that's up to$200 off.

and two free pillows. at helixleep.com slash Tim. That's Helix H E L I X sleep.com slash Tim for up to$200 off. So Check it out one more time, Helix H E L I X Sleep.com slash Tim. This episode of the Tim Ferriss Show is brought to you by Atletic Greens. I get asked all the time.

If I could only take one supplement, what would it be? The answer is inevitably athletic greetings. I view it as a lot of you now view it as all in one nutritional insurance. I recommended it way back in 2010 in the 4 Hour Body, and I did not get paid to do so. I've been using it since before that. And I use it in a lot of different ways. I travel with it to avoid getting sick. or to help mitigate the likelihood of getting sick. I take it in the morning to ensure optimal performance and overall

It covers my bases if I can't get what I need from whole food meals throughout the rest of the day. And if you want to give Athlet Greens a try, they're offering a free 20 count travel pack. for first time users. I nearly always travel with at least three or four of these one dose bags. In other words, if you buy Athlet Greens as a first-time buyer, you now get for a limited time an extra$79 in free product. So check out the details at athleticgreens.com forward slash Tim

Again, that's atleticgreens.com forward slash Tim for your free travel pack with any purchase.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 3 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.