Transcript

Rapid Response: Bracing for a possible TikTok ban, w/fitness entrepreneur Cassey Ho

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The whole social media game has been I just need to play the new game with the changing rules and you don't know what the game is. Like I know TikTok has been really fun. I know you also need to take that same energy to Instagram Reels, to YouTube Shorts, like it's there. Already, just with the algorithm changing every week, there are some times when I am on TikTok and my videos will get tons of crazy views, like 25 million views so that you know I get 600,000 clicks to a product and sell out within like a few hours. And then there was a time When I posted a video, and I remember that video getting literally 12 views. Now this is on 3.5 million followers.

And I was like, what's going on? Hi everyone, Bob Safian here. That's Cassie Ho, an entrepreneur with 17 million social media followers. She runs a pair of Brands, blogalaties, and pop flex that revolve around workout videos and workout gear. I wanted to talk to a business person in the trenches with TikTok as the US government considers banning the app. Cassie's social media footprint goes back to 2009, and so she's navigated through multiple shifts, the rise of new platforms, changing algorithms. She describes TikTok's plight as just the latest twist in an ever changing environment.

Her experiences and perspective provide a window inside a core part of the economy that's essential for every business to understand. This is rapid response. I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with uh Cassie Ho, the founder, CEO, and lead designer of WorkAut Brands uh Blagalades and PopFlex. It's great to

Have you with us here. Thanks for having me. You've built a terrific business using social media platforms as fuel, YouTube Initially now masses of followers everywhere. Do you think of yourself As an influencer, like what what does that word mean to you?

To be completely honest, the moment the word influencer came to be, I was very turned off by it because It sounds like such a vapid term, like what are you influencing? It doesn't really give much. Um, so I prefer to call myself an entrepreneur, a content creator, but yeah, I just I don't like the word influencer. Now To explain to some people what I do in a in like one word, like that kinda says it, but it doesn't encapsulate everything that I do.

No, that creator label seems to be more what folks are Like you are gravitating to. So I want to start by asking you about TikTok. D C folks right now are making noise about banning the platform, even though Millions of users are devoted to it. How have you

Thought about and use TikTok. In your business. So TikTok is one of the platforms that I post on. I post on TikTok, IG, YouTube shorts. I create design videos and I take my

followers kind of through the design journey of like, here's a problem, I need to solve it. And here is how I did that. And by the end of the sixty second video, you see the product they ended up with. Now these Things take, you know, anywhere between 12 months to a couple years of development, all compressed into a 60 second video. And a lot of times these videos go super viral on certain platforms, sometimes on all three platforms. And so that's how I use the platforms to market my products. So when it comes to the TikTok ban, my eggs aren't all in one basket. Of course it's gonna be sad to possibly lose one of them, but I don't know what's gonna actually happen. Yeah, I know. I mean and i is it

Frustrating'cause mean you spend some effort, some time to build up a following on that platform and you've got a A large one, right? Yeah, there's I think there's like three point five million just on that one. Yeah, that's a hefty group of people. Potential customers, you know.

And that might just go away. I mean To be completely honest, the whole social media game has been I just need to play the new game with the changing rules and you don't know what the game is and already just with the algorithm changing every week. There are some times when I am on TikTok and my videos will get

Tons of crazy views, like twenty five million views, so that you know I get six hundred thousand clicks over to a product and sell it within like a few hours. And then there was a time When I posted a video that and I spend like nine to ten hours editing, voiceover, writing, like all of these things, filming. You put up this video that you put so much work into, and I remember that video getting literally 12 views. Now, this is on 3.5 million followers. And I was like, what's going on? So I reached out to TikTok and they're like, Oh, well, pretty much maybe you should just make better content. I'm just like, no, no, no. This is something else. And so this has actually happened like a few different times, and I don't know what it is. I'll have to delete the video. put it up again. So like these glitches have already honestly felt like what a TikTok ban would have felt like. And I actually even went into the Reddit forums and kind of was like

Why is this video getting s twelve views? In the Reddit form it said Do not say Uh Instagram or anything in your videos or you'll get shadow ban. And like the crazy thing is I took off my video

removed you tube and wrote YT And that video ended up going viral. So there is something going on that is fishy and weird, and I never know what the new rules are. Whatever happens is gonna happen and we're gonna have to deal with it. Also, if you're posting the same thing on multiple platforms, you don't necessarily know which

one sort of led to more of your business, right? I mean you're y obviously you you'll know how many views you got, but not necessarily that it drove more more activity. Or Can you tell. You can actually. You can break it down by platform. And I actually can tell that the conversion rate is actually higher on Instagram reels compared to TikTok. When TikTok goes viral, it can go crazy, but you can't rely on it. 'Cause right you're gonna get the twelve views and get the twenty five million views or or whatever. You maybe land somewhere in between with like fifty K and you barely get any sales. So uh I would say Instagram reels probably within the past year has been

A lot more consistent and right now doing better for me than TikTok. But you're not necessarily sure why all the time. You're just having to jump and experiment at different times. And it's incredibly frustrating and I have to be so transparent in saying that It plays with me emotionally as well, because I'm someone who thinks that I can put in a lot of hard work and get the reward out of it, right? Like get the sales or get the views. But sometimes with the algorithm changing, you don't know why your video just isn't doing well. And

For my personality type, which is like I am a super perfectionist, it really affects my self worth. And I actually talk to a lot of creators about this. And there are times that we go through, you know, this social media career and there are certain weeks throughout the year when the algorithm is doing bad for everyone and everyone's just really sad. And we all think it's gonna be the end of our career and we're gonna be irrelevant. So these are very normal conversations that happen, I think a couple or few times a year, but then the algorithm changes And then you're back to normal. And it's just It's a game. If TikTok went away that you'd be irrelevant'cause there are enough other

options for you to to interact with folks through. I know TikTok has been really fun. I know we've been able to grow. Um, and so for some people been able to Like really thrive their businesses on TikTok, but you also need to take that same energy to Instagram Reels, to YouTube shorts. Like it's there. Like should something happen into TikTok. Post that same video. You mentioned this. You started this a

Content provider on YouTube. Work out videos on YouTube. And you expanded into products. Why? Like is is that a better business than just media? So I think I'm a lot different than um many content creators because that was never the plan. And the plan for me as a kid is that I always wanted to be a fashion designer. I'm talking about I carried around a sketchbook when I was six years old and would draw all the time. Then I ended up designing dresses for prom for my friends and making dresses for my Barbie's and so it was always there. Now I started on YouTube in two thousand nine as a way to connect with my real life Pilates students

And the video was only supposed to be for 40 people. I was moving cross country. And so they're like, Who else is gonna teach this format to us? I was teaching pop pilates, which is Pilates with pop music. Nobody was doing that at the time in um where I was in LA. And so I made that video just for them. And then the next thing I saw was that there were thousands of views and hundreds of comments of people that were not my students asking for well do an arm version, do an ab version, do a butt version. And so That is how blogalotti started, um, like as as a fitness YouTube channel.

And in the background I had always been making Things. I was designing yoga bags. I did this water bottle that had a timestamp on it. And one month we sold like 30,000 units of it. So it was always there. But It wasn't until like twenty sixteen and when I was able to launch Pop Flex, which is our D to C higher end activewear brand, when I really got to exercise what I always wanted to do, um

In fashion design. But yeah, it's been a complete evolution from when I first started. And I'm curious, so you had Blackalades as a brand. And you chose to launch a second brand. Why did you feel like you needed a second brand? Why did you keep the first one when you were making that transition? I didn't want to wear my own screen name. on my clothes. I just that's just a me thing. I think most people would have just kept it. Um but it was a great decision because Hot Flex now is our more I wouldn't say high high end, but higher end brand when compared to Blogalotties, which you can now find at Target. So it's more of an approachable price point. And then Pop Flex is where I just like go crazy with innovation and quality fabrics and just like

Designing to my heart's content. So let me ask you how did you get connected to Target? Like how did that happen? My husband and I were on vacation in Thailand and we get a call from our licensing agent and they're like we have this opportunity, something something target. And I was like, What? What? Like how? And we actually got on the call in Thailand to talk more about this. And then as soon as we got back to the States, uh, we took a red eye. all the way over to the near the target headquarters and we had a meeting and present it to the buyer. And uh it was a tough meeting. I didn't know if they liked it or not, but eventually we got the purchase order. But it was a test at first. We made some products and they were gonna test us for four to six weeks, but everything sold out within like two weeks. It went

Absolutely wild. And so that's how that relationship started. And because um It's been quite successful. Uh we're s we're we're still there and it's still a dream to walk into Target and see that. For those listening to this whose brands haven't been built on social platforms, What do you think a lot of Brands and businesses miss.

when they're trying to engage. Ca'cause it can often seem like just a a crowded, noisy space. And I think that scare some folks away. Yeah, I think what makes um A brand really special, especially these days. is having a face so you can connect to a humanness. Yeah, I think marketing has really changed over the past few years and people love the real, they love the raw, they love seeing real customer bodies on the clothes, and they really just want you in there talking with them.

I think talking about the journey. Of building the brand, building the business, showing yourself shipping the packages, right? Like these are things people want to see that's real, like uh that it's coming from a human. I think the more humanness you can bring into the brand, the better. And also talking about your Your failures as well. Like sometimes I'll put up videos showing like what I call my bad samples, designs that died, like things that just didn't make it through because it was so horrendous and I had to give up. And that's fun too, because you've really got to show all the parts of yourself b if you really want that honest and raw relationship with your audience. Raw and honest.

It's an imperative that's increasingly embraced across the business landscape. And it seems likely to persist whether TikTok stays or goes. After the break, Cassie shares how she competes for followers against other brands, her battles with a toxic situation that forced her to remake her team and more. We'll be right back. When you've built substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position.

The upside is real, but so is the risk, and knowing when to act isn't always obvious. Creative planning works with business owners to build a strategy around concentrated equity. When to diversify, how to manage tax risk, and how to protect what you've spent years. Building. Creative planning where wealth works together.

Learn more at creative planning dot com slash masters of scale. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. Those are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi.

And on my podcast, Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely.

From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Before the break, we heard social media entrepreneur and designer Cassie Ho talk about the pros and cons of TikTok and how she built an audience of 17 million social followers. Now she talks about the ruthless competition among digital brands, balancing product vision with audience feedback, what it's like to work alongside her husband, and more. Let's jump back in.

Cassie, social media's made it easier for someone like you to build a business, but social also makes it easier for new brands to come along, too. How do you think about the competitive landscape? Бак дернь Пандемиш All of these at leisure brands were popping up. Everyone was blowing up because at that time everybody was working out at home. And I remember telling my husband, and I keep referencing him because he's also the COO of our company and we talk about work all the time. It just never stops. Um, but I was like

There is gonna be a day when we all cannot exist. Like you just this is not you can't have this many activewear brands if you're not selling something different. We've seen brands already start to die out. And I'm not just talking about the Instagram ones, like when Beyonce's Ivy Park had to shut down. Like I like I'm talking about big brand with big financial backing. And so in order to stand out of the market, you really need to be doing something different. That's why I don't design anything unless I'm making a difference with the design. Do you know what gave you the confidence to sort of Quit your day job and and do blogalotes full time. Like is there a story around that about how you made that decision?

So in two thousand nine I put up my first YouTube video and it was never meant to be anything. There was there was no like ad campaigns or making any money off of that. It was just really for connection, right? Okay. So then I get my first job um on the east coast. I'm getting into fashion buying and I absolutely hate my job. But during this time, I actually was designing a yoga bag for myself. I bring it to class and my students are like, What's that? Like I want one of those. And so I made some and ended up putting it on like a tiny little website that I made by myself. I mean it I also shipped out Three. Three bags to like

Women's Health Shape magazine fitness magazine. And then one day my sister texts me. A picture and she's like Is that your bag in Shape magazine? And I was like, excuse me, what? So I run out to the nearest target during lunch and I flip through the shape magazine and I'm like Oh my God. Like

This is a sign, right? I'm hating my job and my bag that I design just made it into a national magazine. I took that as a sign that hey You can do this, and so what I did was I ended up quitting my job. Probably within like the next couple of weeks. And then I bought a ticket to China on a Friday and I left on Sunday because I said

If I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna go hard. So I went to China to go to the Canton Fair to find a manufacturer. And I know I look Chinese and Chinese Vietnamese, that's what I actually am. But I don't actually speak Chinese. And so I had to get an interpreter and like really figure things out. I was probably like Twenty. Two or something, I just went for it. And that was the moment that I decided to make

Designing my like my real real thing. Now in terms of content creation, because that's that's a different story, right? The moment that I knew that there was something more here, um, actually does lead back to product. So This is probably around twenty eleven or something like that. And uh the YouTube channel was growing a lot. I might have been around like, I don't know, maybe two hundred thousand, one hundred I wo definitely wasn't even at a million yet. So anyway, the fans on Facebook were like, Cassie, uh, can you make a shirt? So I think that says blogalates.

That was the moment I realized, Oh my gosh. Okay, Blogalades is now a brand and it sold out within like minutes. It was crazy. As your business has grown What's the biggest challenge? What's the biggest Struggle. Yeah, I mean the biggest struggles

We'll always be finding the right People to support your growth. My mistake back in, you know, the What was it? Like the twenties, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen's when I was young and trying to figure out how to be a manager. Um I was hiring people mostly for their skill and their talent and

not thinking about the way we could really work together and communicate and so There w there was a lot of bad stuff that went down there. And when I say bad stuff, I just mean like a lack of appreciation. Um I would walk into the office and With my body like actually shaking, my breathing was abnormal, my heart. beat was abnormal. It was just wasn't the right

People. And when you're not around the right people, they suck the energy out of you and you feel like you're not capable of anything. And in 2018, I almost wanted to quit everything. And there's something magical that happens when you're really at that breaking point, but you just try one more time really hard. And It makes you so much stronger. And anyway, some people left and um some people got let go. I mean, that's what it is. And look, it's like a real any relationship, right? If it's not working out, it's not working out. And we just need to to end this chapter and we both need a fresh start. There a a lot of businesses start with co founders.

Not necessarily spouses. What should people think about if they're considering sort of blurring the lines between their business life and their personal life the way you've chosen to do it. I am very fortunate that Sam and I are both good at different things, very different things, and bad at very different things. So there is this natural divide between who's gonna do what. Like I'm more of the creative, the visionary, the design side, the marketing. And Sam loves numbers. He loves analytics and all that kind of stuff. And because of that, when we do get in any fights, we have to remember whose arena this is and we let that person lead.

Mm. You try not to bring it home, or is it just home all the time? Oh, it's home all the time because we we're we're remote. So we work from home and like, you know, we'll we'll eat lunch or dinner and still talk about what we ha what happened at work. There was a time when we were like, Okay Definitely no talking about work after a certain time, but it just felt so unnatural. And anyway, this this is the season that we're in, the season of growth. And in order to keep that growth, like, you know.

Sustained. I guess we're just working on the time. Anyway, what else would we be doing if we're not working? Well I guess I guess we could go on that vacation. Well, I hope you I hope you do that too.

Cassie. This was great. Thanks so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Bob. This is fun. What I take away from listening to Cassie is how much the Wild West nature of social based businesses Reflects heightened competition everywhere. Social media has upended traditional customer engagement, but then social media itself has been upended over and over and over by Instagram, by Snapchat, by TikTok, and so on.

TikTok's fate from here. is a geopolitical one at this point. Even for someone with three and a half million followers there, looking at that audience as a defining asset is risky. The overarching lesson is that while a platform can be super impactful in accelerating a business, becoming reliant on one can make you vulnerable. Take the good.

Avoid the bad. And stay on your toes. I'm Bob Safian, thanks for listening. Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safi.

Our executive producer is Eve Tro. The production team includes Chris Gautier, Alex Morris? Mashamaku Tonina and Brandon Klein.

Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli. Original music by Eduardo Rivera and Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Lytal Mulan. Visit masters of scale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our email newsletter.