Rapid Response: Hourly workers are a ‘hero class’ w/Cue Ball’s Tony Tjan

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Today we're at 3.3 million jobless. Four to five times the highest level since nineteen eighty two's great recession. in the period of twelve days going from 552 people down to seven.

effectively down to zero revenue. All of these hourly workers in this country really represent a hero class. They're incredibly resilient. For many people, it's not a stimulus plan for them. This is a personal relief emergency plan. I see the spirit of those people.

Who are out there As the heartbeat of our economy, who are helping each other. In the end, we are all just so very human. It's gonna be our collective humanity that gets us uh through this. I really, really Believe that.

Hi listeners. It's Reed. We're continuing our special coverage today. And we're honored to have Tony Chan with us to think about the impact of the pandemic on hourly workers. Tony's the managing director of Cube All Capital.

In Boston. And he has a long term orientation that's rare in the VC world. Cuball's portfolio is filled with purpose driven companies, including several that are reckoning with a near elimination of their entire industry. Tony's asking questions. that may resonate with many of you.

How can you both protect your hourly workers? and prepare them for an uncertain future. How do you plan for the long term? When the daily keeps changing. This is Tony's second time on the show, and he's interviewed here by our editor at large, Bob Saffian.

Bob came to us after eleven years as editor in chief. A fast company. I'm grateful to him for stepping in to do these interviews when my schedule won't allow it. I'm Bob Safian, and I'm here with Tony Chan, the managing director of Cuball Capital in Boston. While many investors look for unicorns, uh Tony has always had a different perspective. Instead of unicorns, he looks for what he calls sea turtles, which live a long time, which today especially

We all have our ideas on. Tony's also a friend and supporter of Masters of Scale. He's appeared in previous episodes before with uh terrific insights. And he's coming to us today remotely from his home in Massachusetts as I ask my questions from my home in New York. Tony, thanks for joining us. Thank you, Bob. Great to be here. These are strange and unprecedented times. where everything is being disrupted in the

business world and beyond. And I wanna thank you for participating in this special series of episodes of Masters of Scale, where we're interviewing founders and operators and investors who are in the thick of things and have agreed to share their experiences and hopes of helping other leaders. New pressures are arising, new questions, new imperatives. I know that you are particularly concerned about the often unseen fragility of the most vulnerable players in our economy, in particular hourly workers who are being hit so hard by this crisis. And I I wanna delve into that. with you in detail

But first I wanna start with a more overarching. Question. Um you're known for being a long term thinker. It's been your approach to investing, and it underscores so much of the rest of your philosophy. And the last time you were on Masters of Scale, you talked about the dangers of what you called shorttermism and uh microwave capitalism very evocative phrase But right now everything feels short term.

And so I'm hoping you can explain your philosophy about longtermism versus shortterm and then Explain how it applies or is being tested. In the environment. That we have today that's rapidly shifting. Sure. Um thanks for the question, Bob.

I think on the concept of long term it really came about from having been a founder and business builder over many years. And One that's had the both uh good fortune and misfortune. Of seeing some of these

incredible crises of this scale in the past. From the dot com crash. on the date of nine eleven. to watching the incredible volatility through the two thousand eight

Фінанчо крайся I can honestly say I haven't. witness anything of this um size and magnitude that has come with this swiftness. and has impacted at least certain sets of the population disproportionately. But in terms of how that relates to longtermism

It really made us realize when we started Cuball. that what we wanted to have was a very different model. for venture investing. We wanted to have venture investing where we would invest in early growth concepts that might actually have the chance. to turn into durable growth.

Meaning that What if you imagine a world where your filter for investing was Might this last for fifty years. Just fifty years. How does that change your thinking?

And the concept of microwave capitalism is that look Most things coming out the microwave don't taste that good. they tend to be better simmered or slow roasted. If you think of the most perfect salt. made in the world. It just comes from

You know, sea water. A bit of sun. And a lot of time. in its purest form. And for us, we believe that there are so many

long term opportunities. And long term issues. That can be solved if we just did one thing. Just change our time frame. And as humans

We're Cognitively wired almost. To be short term. You know, this is why we have trouble. with diets or quitting smoking, always believing that things can change the next day.

Our political cycles, the way we invest, the fact that the vast majority of investing today is momentum trading that people are doing. These These last few days. If we actually just did some things based on the fundamentals, you might have a chance to solve for a bigger purpose. Which is to place capital

and be the best supporting actor. To people and places. which normally would not get it. There are numerous innovation deserts out there. There's numerous opportunities for more inclusionary innovation.

But we have to change our time frame. We need patient capital to solve those things that might actually possibly move the world. Forward. While they disrupt categories. Right now.

Being patient. is particularly hard. And do you find yourself sort of falling back on this idea of patience, is it coming or Or is it something that In an environment like this, when things get

Crazy. Whether now, nine eleven. You know, two thousand eight. Do you suspend it, or does it become even More important.

Well, I I think a mutual acquaintance at least of ours, I think it was Bob Metcalf who had said we tend to overestimate the short term and underestimate the long term. And whether that's Metcalf's rule or whether it should be credited to another wise person, I think the concept and principle is right.

I think that The value of stoicism or patience right now is a little bit of a calming force. But you know, I'd be completely lying. If I said that during these times you can't

Help. but feel the short term pain. The emotion. the roller coaster and how you maintain perspective.

I think this is true in operating companies, I think it's true in investing, a great friend of mine who actually co-led Tiananmen Square. and has become one of the best value investors in this country. When I asked how he's become so successful, he reminded me that Great investing is really about psychology. Not about any smarts.

You have to Buy low and sell high. And it turns out that um that's much harder to do. So during this time we have to keep one eye laser focused. On

defense because it is about survival, Bob. We have a number of retail services businesses. That never could have imagined. this level of catastrophic disruption.

to a business. Um, so we have to keep one eye laser focused on everything we can do to get to the other side. Whilst doing that Should you have sufficient capital And in many cases, many of us are becoming more limited on that.

given the scale of this very severe COVID nineteen crisis. You want to be scanning for opportunities to allow you to be best positioned for offense. When we do get to the other side. Uh because we have to remember that

This too is not permanent. And this too shall pass. But um it's a hell of a time whilst it's going on. When you've built substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position. The upside is real, but so is the risk, and knowing when to act isn't always obvious.

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There can be two types of companies. Those are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Kalyubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more.

As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday we release a second rapid response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely from Ford's CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about

10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. I wanna have you take us through one of your portfolio companies in particular Uh mini lux.

I don't remember whether it was the first the starting point of Cuball, but it started uh pretty early in in in Cuball's Rain and we're the only venture firm that started as a nail salon. Yeah, and it started very much with a long term Perspective, right? It's a chain of nail salons and that the case for Going into nail salons was

As you say, it was a a a fifty year case? Yeah, I think it's a it's a chain of nail slans as much as Starbucks is a chain of coffee shops. I think part of the inspiration we drew from when we tried to think of how can we use purpose design and technology to transform an entire industry that's been forgotten or neglected. We ended up picking nail care.

as our industry. we set that challenge out there to say what could be star buckable. So we're trying to Starbuck the nail care industry. And I call it the nail care industry because it's not just the nail slons, it's the nail care products, the treatments.

The actual protocols. All across that space that represent the most used beauty service in the world. But that's the least regulated. And anyone who's walked into a typical nail slon or perhaps read the seminal twenty fifteen New York Times piece by Sarah Maslinaire.

Under dangerous of nail slans. We'll notice that it's unimaginable. that this type of industry can exist as it does in the twenty first century. With the level of toxicity.

Poor labor practices. Lack of standards and lack of hygiene. And so you you saw this as an opportunity to create a better product and a better experience. in this environment and you've plowed A lot of money in it, right? I mean

Tens of millions of dollars into growth into a franchise that Right. And it was doing very well. Yes, it's been doing very well. Yeah. Yeah, I think we're trying to build a platform brand that includes our our our nail studios that do nail services and waxing. We're offering a reimagined, uh, better, clean, ethical, safe set of nail polishes because most of the products out there have

very high levels of toxicity, carcinogenic, and can cause neurological damage. By the way. Many of the nail slons that have been reviewed by the CDC have already pre Covid nineteen. up to ten percent infection rate in uh passing various infections like uh nail fungus to hepsi.

Um to other diseases. So for us, it was really important to fundamentally set a safe standard, not just for nail care. But you know, we don't really think about it. When you go to the barber shop and you see that mystery blue liquid called barbicide That probably doesn't kill the stuff like COVID nineteen, you know? It's probably not that great. And so we really tried to have a vision. That would elevate

An entire industry. Um, through super hygiene. economic opportunity for inclusive class. And community. Empowerment.

And to your point. Yes. It was going. Really well. Uh we have a terrific CEO in Zoe Chris Lock, who formerly ran Nike Canada. She has a terrific team that had been building this to double digit growth.

We were on a run rate of tens of millions. uh far higher than any average nail studio. Oprah had just named us her favorite things and called us the Tesla polishes. But in the period of Twelve days. We watch going from

Five hundred and fifty two people down to seven. and um effectively down to zero revenue. And you know the math And a fiduciary duty. And the logic

Of having run businesses before Is not the hard part. What's the hard part? is really thinking about the lives you might be impacting And how you have to make sure that not just your business gets to the other side.

But all of those Five hundred. Plus people. Not just in that business, but I would say across the states.

Of the economic engine on the ground floor that really make our country What it is. That's what I'm worried about. My heart's out there for

Not just that group, but in the nail care business Uh There are about four hundred thousand workers in this country. It is either the second uh or third largest um independent employer of vocational trade and uh likely the largest. of women and immigrant.

Independent workers. So it's a very vulnerable class right now, and uh we forget the social justice that we need to return to these people that are you know, purveyors of self care. We often view'em and call'em nail technicians. I would never call them a nail technician. They're at minimum a nail designer and really a purveyor of self care and All of us have to think of those who have been caring for us.

For all these years. Whether it's that Waiter. That bartender. That nail designer.

That waxing editor, that barber. Think about all those who just might be disproportionately affected. minimally reach out, pick up the phone and say thank you. I mean, this has been personally distressing.

For you. Has it not? I mean, yeah, I mean this is a company that More than just funding.

Myself and my partners co founded it. Just over a decade ago. And When you try to build a business and you try to build one especially that is purpose driven, you never really sign up to let anyone go. Even if it feels

Temporary. They're part of a family. It has been incredibly distressing. first and foremost just trying to do the right thing quickly so that we can Do everything possible.

But then just watching What so many of the people go through. You know, the media

recently is just um tuting a lot about the stimulus bill. UI benefits But we have to think of the reality of folks on the ground that are fifteen standard deviations

in terms of a different life and needs. than what you and I are doing today and where you and I are. and where even most of the listeners are. Which is They're applying

For unemployment. in Texas right now with a site that's crashed. They've been without work. For some weeks. And even

For all our efforts of trying to lead with humanity. Lead with love over fear. and paying people through last Friday, cashing out all their PTO. Offering health benefits for thirty days. Offering multilingual

help to try to get them onboarded onto UI. The reality is that many people still haven't been able to even claim. Their unemployment. Today we're at 3.3 million

Jobless. Four to five times the highest level. since nineteen eighty two's great recession. The systems are crashing. The bills are out and I applaud Congress for trying to

get individuals and small businesses in. But it's going to be weeks. Uh, if not months. Before some of this really benefits. The smaller businesses that make up

ninety nine percent of this country's economy. And so Despite this enormous stimulus package that's in place and the efforts that are underway. You're just not sure it's gonna be enough to help certain parts of this population. That they're

They're gonna be left out or left behind or left waiting. Yeah. Let's be clear, I think for some folks that are rallying on Wall Street and going from minus XXX percent to plus twenty percent in a few days and

A plot a fiscal stimulus plan. For many people, this is a personal relief emergency plan. It's not a stimulus plan for them. It's a relief plan. They're on standby needing this.

And it goes well beyond our our mini lux group. We have another business, Ro T, which has uh it's a Mediterranean grilled food concept. We've had probably seven hundred people hourly. That are out there in the same way. Most of America depends on

businesses like that for their weekly livelihood. And we need to remember that. So I'm grateful that it's there. It's going to take time to get to people. It's a large amount to small businesses, but it's equally, you know, five hundred billion plus to big businesses. And uh the question becomes, how quickly can we get it?

to the people and can we get it to the right people. In time. Sort of sounds like the business case for husbanding your cash flow and reducing your staff is almost like it's obvious. Like the business case you have to do it.

But the human case is much more complicated. Yeah. I mean I think that you you immediately when this happened you have to go into Extreme Extreme cash.

conservation basis. As one of my CEOs reminded me. During these times of crises, what we need more than ever is an attitude approach. and leadership style.

Of having love. Win over fear. And I think that pretty much Sums up the situation. I I think it's obvious that you need to do that.

So that you can hopefully provide a place on the other side. You need to play extreme Defense. But it's absolutely heart wrenching. to uh to do this process.

And you try to do it as compassionately as possible. You try to offer as much as you can. But it's gut wrenching and and we have to remember that This is going to have some repercussions well beyond just a post-COVID 19 world. It's great that we have some of this new bill helping. For some short term.

But it it saddens me overall. That The entire retail services small business landscape will have a reset. You may see as high as thirty, thirty five percent of businesses. not make it through here. Wow. That's um

It's very bracing. It's very bracing. So your advice for business people struggling with decisions about layoffs versus cash flow is You have to take care of the cash flow first so that your There on the other side.

I guess to hire people back later. What kind of solutions Do we need that we don't have for them most vulnerable at risk. Yeah.

Well I think the best solution we have, let me just say this, the the the light that has lifted my spirit, including work that you're doing and the whole wait what team has been to really see this uh ray of light through the cracks, which is The work of collective humanity.

And um People have jumped in to try to help. There's a variety of different NGOs. We, like others, have set up economic uh resiliency funds. to try to get people to uh jump in and buy a gift card on our Mini Lux uh website or you know support through Venmo, give a virtual gratuity

And that's an important point, by the way, Bob. It's um it's not just the hourly worker. Um it's also people with Gratuity. uh that are depending on gratuity. Um, you know, in terms of what we need and what could have been done faster, I I think it's useful to go through some some basic math.

If you think of, you know, I'm now abstracting to an average hourly worker and pick a number, say forty thousand dollars a year that they might make. And assume that there's some tip element on that. of twenty percent. Some of that may or may not be reported. That takes him to fifty thousand dollars a year.

If you're able to get through Unemployment. That drops you down on your reportable wages down to twenty thousand dollars annuali salary. And Whether you're single or a family or four or five

That's a tough run rate to go on. So I think that the first thing, the care package that's been proposed and getting twelve hundred dollars to people. We need to get that as fast as possible. to people. We really need to get that as fast as possible.

twelve hundred dollars is a massive amount of money for many people in this country. It could buy groceries for, you know, a while and get people over Through the hump. We need to allow their banks to give them uh forgivable short term emergency loans. We need to allow the business owners like ourselves to get

a level of emergency relief funding that we can continue to employ our people. without all the contingencies out there. I mean it's amazing that we can get a bill through this, but I don't know if you've looked at it. But imagine the average person trying to wade through eight hundred plus pages. And just try clicking. I I encourage anyone on the Masters of Skill program to click on the emergency relief fund.

loan application and look at all the boxes and liabilities and Even if you have a sophisticated MBA. You know, I would say that you would be somewhat challenged to say that this is like a quick and easy one click process. So I think we need to make this

easy. I think we need to triage and prioritize and Make sure those that are most vulnerable get it first. And we need to call upon our collective humanity. This is not gonna get solved just top down government. I think that I'm lift that mostly But a spirit of people. Whether it's clients

Friends the American population to rise to their occasion with courage and humanity like times like this. These folks, all of these hourly workers in this country really represent uh a hero class.

um to our country and um They're doing amazing things and they're incredibly resilient. And uh we we we owe it to them to make sure they not only come out the other side, but they come out Stronger. And um it's great that it there's some short term relief, but it's gotta get there fast and

It's gotta last. It's gotta last. Have you had outreach from Employees are Former employees from Deluxe or some of the other

firms that you run. What what kind of What are you hearing back from from those folks? Are there any stories that you can share? Well, the first amazing thing and It'll break your heart is that um

So often is the case during these times that it's the people who have less that use these moments to find productive ways that they can apply their talents and With great courage and positive audacity.

Do great things. So I learned this week from a group of Mini lux, folks. Not

With their jobs. H had done everything from volunteering To package Ship.

put together notes to send to doctors at places like Mass General Hospital. And Planos Medical Center. Critical uh PPE supplies. Um, specifically everything from medical grade disinfectant wipes because we have the most sterile, most hygienic.

nail care offering, we believe in the world. They package this excess. Before studios had to close. And Delivered these offerings.

And perhaps in the most moving case. Was a woman. Who Use the capabilities of our hands. to hand so

Several masks for doctors. In this time of shortage. It's incredible show of humanity. That they have Reached out with concern.

With anxiety? Most calls have been About thank you. About Thanking us for helping them

Get their unemployment benefits? Helping them get a little bit extra. We are on uh calls with them frequently. Weekly calls with the whole staff. I think that's another piece of advice for anyone going through this right now. You have to stay connected to your groups.

They will want to come back, but Don't lose that goodwill. People need human connection now more than ever, and the fact that we have social distancing makes it so m So much harder, so send out virtual oxytocin to everyone. People need it.

Uh, we're desperate for it. So use caution. Have compassion. But have courage and be inspired by these stories of what people are doing. That's what has um

Lift at me, Bob. I I just look at what they have done. And these are the stories from the field. As you talk about this, it in some ways it's a Bracing reminder in certain ways of how the The way our market system and our economy works and the priorities.

don't always accrue to the human side first in the way the systems are set up. I I had a A dialogue with Reed Hoffman. a few days ago, and he like you was very frank that some businesses in this environment are just or they're gonna die. They're gonna they're gonna close down. And we were talking about as as an investor Sort of how does that

Change the calculation you're making. with your own portfolio. You've supported all of these organizations. They're like your children and suddenly you're in a triage mode where you have to decide like which ones of them you support. So that they can in turn continue to support How are you managing or grappling with sort of that kind of triage? When your ideal is to be long term focused, but

You have to make those difficult choices also. Yeah, I think there was a letter from various representatives in Michigan that came out. to begin to state the health public policy of what will happen when their ICU units And hospitals become overcrowded and you have to make life or death choices.

Between Who stays in the ICU? Who stays on the ventilator. Who stays with the doctors who can care for them. that impossible decision that you need to make.

is one that really has no Great answer. The only filter I would probably use on long termism uh is to think about

Where the world might go. Because in making that choice, I think how we will end up having to make it is to at least project out over the next few years And in this world of new new normal That will come about

which one of these companies are gonna be best suited. for that new new normal. And by that, that's not just a math equation. My hope in thinking about long termism is that this is going to be a reminder and shock to the system that a level of new conscious consumerism

might be a good thing. Shopping local. Shopping ethically. Shopping sustainably. supporting legitimate fair labor workers

Places like Mini Lux trying to do economic development opportunity for them in safe super hygienic modalities. I hope overall this conscious consumerism comes about and That's where where and how we're trying to think. Who are the representative companies That now have the best chance possible.

to hopefully take advantage of a reset world, not just in the negative spirit of having a A smaller set of competition. But more in the positive spirit of the fact that we hopefully have greater permission. to sell to a wider range and wider set of conscious consumers. out there in the new new normal. I'm an optimist, so I'm hoping.

You you are. You're you're an optimist and you believe that we can tap into the best versions of ourselves. And listen, that is what That is what we all hope can come through in the long run from Once we get to the other side of the Heat of this crisis. That

As we restart and as we rebuild, it's gonna be on all of us to make it happen and What kind of a world do we wanna be in and do we wanna create? Same questions we always ask ourselves, but uh becomes much more poignant and more central at At times like this. Yeah, I think we're gonna learn, I think, you know, as people become more educated, I mean we're all talking about

Іно ковід Найтін новийрус. And I think as we become more educated that, you know, it's it's a world where it really must be us together. And we saw elements of this, you know, prior to COVID nineteen, as for the first time businesses started talking about the possibility that Milton Friedman wasn't completely right that business is not solely for the purpose of profit, but for a collective stakeholder set. That

You know, this is why I believe in long termism. I believe in long termism when I see the spirit of those people. Who are out there. As the heartbeat of our economy. Who are helping each other.

And a lot of people are trying to help them. And when I think about all the things that are possible if we could just be more long term and more educated to the benefits of that long term It it gives me courage.

But I don't know if I'll see it in my lifetime, Bob, but I'm I'm a long term thinker, so maybe maybe maybe my kids will benefit in the next generation. These are these are stressful times. And and as a leader For you personally what do you try to do to help manage your own stress and and what sort of advice might you give to other business leaders and the rest of us?

For uh for getting through these difficult days, these difficult choices These difficult moments. It's a great question, Bob, on how we actually manage during these times of stress and um often not just stress, but stress coupled with sadness. It makes me think back on the founding values that we put in place for my venture firm Cuball. And we have a a 3P mantra of purpose.

People and patients. You know, during these times of stress, perhaps the most important thing to center on is your purpose. Reminding yourself of your North Star. um that very reason that you started your venture. And uh equally it's absolutely critical.

To remind your people. of this overarching purpose. This is especially true during times of crises. The second P on people. is that uh during these uh moments you need more than ever those that you trust and love around you.

First and foremost to maintain an even keel. It's absolutely wise to get diverse perspectives. you want to have your sounding board, you want your trusted counsel. So Get more input. And delegate.

Uh wherever you can. But people are equally need it. to help you with your vulnerability. These are times when we have to find those moments where we can

go to our confidants, uh, whether they're at home or at work and let it go a little bit. It's okay to cry. It's okay to shed your vulnerability. That's what people are for to help offer you the peer support to offer you the virtual oxytocin that we all need. uh during these times.

And As I think of the theme of people, try to think of those that you love and respect the most, uh, who have managed during these times of crises and I certainly try to imagine some of those people before critical communications or critical meetings or critical discussions. And channel their spirit. Toward uh

that upcoming conversation that I need to have. And finally patience. Just remember, uh, this too shall pass, and we all have to try to be stronger. on the other side, but remembering that it's about the long term. That's uh most critical and being patient and stoic.

will help you think uh a little bit more clearly. And I guess lastly, as I go back to that theme of purpose that uh I just started with uh I'm reminded of the purpose behind why we start at Minilux. Yes, it's a nail care brand and yes, it's a um a set of nail care studios across the country. But the real underlying purpose.

of why we started mini lux was to create and celebrate many moments of self care. And during these times of stress and challenge We absolutely need to find that balance and remember the small things, um, taking a short walk, uh, remembering to breathe, not just when your watch tells so.

And if I'm permitted to give a shout out to one of White Watts properties um listening to content that is reflective, like meditative story. Whatever gives you self care, whether it's um meditating, yoga, doing your nails, Whatever makes you feel a little more like you. That's what you have to try to do a little bit.

Each day. For me today. It was uh just waking up thinking about what I want to wear. As much as I love having worn sweats over the last two weeks at home. I decided that I should start today by wearing a tie and a new shirt.

As my kids ask me what meeting I had. I said I had a really important meeting coming up that day. They said which one? I said, Well It's meeting this new day with its new challenges.

You know. Just making an effort. To do something that Makes you feel more ready. As small and as silly as that might sound.

is critical. We need balance and um just finding joy in those Small things from The humanity we see from people singing on host terraces of Italy. to uh our own group putting together our our song lists to the virtual happy hours that are emerging. across the social sphere.

These small things. Keep us connected. They remind us who we are. And they remind us that in the end we are all just so very human. And uh it's gonna be our collective humanity that gets us uh through this. I really, really

Believe that. So Lots of love to everyone out there. Let's win this. We're in it together. And uh we'll get to the other side together.

Well, Tony, I uh Listen, sometimes tears are warranted. Yeah, as you say. But channeling a spirit of of optimism and embracing a new day and recognizing the gifts that we have and the gifts that we can give each other. Um are I think are great are great lessons for us to take away from all this. Thank you. for sharing your thoughts with us today. We're wishing you luck. Thanks, Bob.

Masters of Scale Rapid Response is a Wait What original. The show is recorded remotely, using sanitized audio gear. It's hosted by me, Bob Saphian, Masters of Scales editor at large, and Masters of Scale host, Reed Hoffman. Our executive producers are June Cohen and Darren Triff. Our supervising producer is Jay Punjabi. Our producer is Jordan McLeod.

Scripts by Christina Gonzalez. Original music and sound design by Ryan Holiday and Daniel Nissenbaum. Audio editing by Keith J. Nelson and Lena Sillicen. Mixing and Mastering by Brian Pugh. Special thanks to Emily McManus, Sarah Sandman,

Adam Heiner Kelsey Capitano. Tim Cronin. Charlie Menessis. And Saida Sapia.

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