Jo Loves: Jo Malone CBE

Hey, really quick before we start this brand new episode of How I Built This, you may have heard about our new How I Built This Resilience series, where I've been having video conversations with founders and business leaders about how they're reacting to the current economic crisis. You can see all those conversations, by the way, at our Facebook page, Facebook.com slash how I built this, or on NPR's YouTube page. Anyway, this week I'm going to be live with five leaders in the fashion and beauty industry every single day. Starting Monday, May 18th through May 22nd, I'll be hosting a live video chat. with an incredible lineup of guests, including Marcia Kilgore of BeautyPie and Fitflop, Jen Hyman of Rent the Runway, Sarah LaFleur of MM LaFleur, Alley Webb of Dry Bar, and James Reinhardt of Thread Up. We're going to be talking about the challenges they're confronting and how they're trying to build resilience into their businesses. So join me every day this week at noon eastern 9 a.m. Pacific at facebook.com slash how I built this. And if you want to learn more about NPR's other virtual events, you can go to nprpresents.org.

This was a real breaking point. Gary came home, he had a pizza in his hand, and I just said to Gary, There's hundreds of orders come in and we've got to have them done by the end of the week. And he said, Let me just have my supper and I'll do it and he sat down to eat his dinner and of course I touched everything in the kitchen with fragrance. So his pizza tasted of nutmeg and ginger, and he said, If we carry on, we're gonna end a divorce. I literally said, I'm gonna go and have a shower and just I'll come back in a minute and I thought, Oh my god, no'cause I'd put all these seashells in the bath and I was scenting them with lavender, sea lavender oil And I heard him scream as he went in and he c he walked down the hall and he said Okay.

That's it. We need a shop. Prime and PR? That's how I built this.

a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. They built. I'm Guy Raz and on the show today. How Joe Malone turned her homemade lotions into one of the hottest perfume brand in the world. Joe Malone, London.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one's around to hear it, Does it make a sound? This famous philosophical thought experiment can easily be applied to entrepreneurship. The question might go something like this. If you make a great product, but you neglect the design element.

Will anyone notice it? Well, probably not. I mean, think about how many dish soaps there were when Method debuted in the late 1990s. There's a reason why people bought soap. The product was good, but the bottom was what got you to try it. When Tristan Walker created the Bevel Razor,

He wanted the unboxing experience to be as exciting as the iPhone. He even wanted to replicate that whoosh sound when the top part separates from the bottom of the box. Why did swell bottles break out in a marketplace inundated with water bottles? Because Sarah Kause designed them to stand out. Now, all those things might sound superficial, but In a crowded marketplace.

They matter. It's what gets people to hear your tree falling in the forest. And that's kind of what Joe Malone did as well. Now, if you're not familiar with Joe Malone fragrances, I assure you you have seen a Joe Malone shop in some airport around the world. The logo and the look is really simple, a thin black frame around three words.

Joe Malone. London. The perfume boxes are cream and wrapped in a single black bow. That's it. But there's something so elegant about that look that

It makes you want to buy it. Which is basically how her brand, Joe Malone. Took off. But this was after years and years and years of making lotions and creams and selling them out of her small apartment in London. Joe's story is almost like one of those magical realism novels. It involves a real magician, her dad.

His ten dwarf rabbits A mysterious countess named Madame Blue Body, and a working class childhood on the outskirts of London. Now, I interviewed Joe before the world went crazy, although let's be honest, it was crazy before too. And I called her up to see how she's managing right now. You're in London.

Yep, I'm in lockdown, London. Yeah. And my son, of course, we've been living in lockdown together, and actually You know what, guy? It's We laugh every single day as a family and I was thinking, when would I ever have had this time with my nineteen year old son again? Never.

He was doing my highlights last night. colouring my hair. It's awful, but there's some really funny moments in the whole thing as well. He had rubber gloves on and I was sitting there trying to direct him and we were literally Aching with laughter. Um Joe, let let's go ahead and listen to to this episode that we recorded a few weeks ago.

um about your life and and your story. And then we'll come back at the end and find out about Your situation now, is that okay? Okay. Anyway, Joe grew up in a council estate, or what Americans would call public housing, in the 1960s with her mom, dad, and sister. Jo has dyslexia, which went undiagnosed for years, and it made school a real struggle for her.

I just couldn't keep up. I couldn't The things I was really good at were things like biology,'cause it's visual. I was very good at history. because I could listen to the stories and I would memorize those.

And I was very good at religious studies, believe it or not, because again they're based on stories. But mathematics, English, languages I struggled above and beyond. I would literally be thrown out of the class um with the others and I was told I was lazy and stupid. And I knew it was neither one of those things, but I just couldn't follow a an exam paper. Multiple choice to me was the worst thing in the world because I'd put my cross an answer and then I'd watch all the sentences and all the letters move around on the page.

And by the end of it. I would probably have answered three or four questions out of twenty, and I'd fail And Then I would pick up a book. And I would read it and there'll be no problem at all and I would think I'm cured.

And then uh sure enough it would happen again. And it st it still happens to me today, not not as much as it did when I was a child. I'm You know, can you manage perfectly well now, but uh that's probably because I'm not so anxious about it. What was your parents? Marriage like.

It was happy and very unhappy, both in the same breath. they adored each other and then they hated each other. And then they adored each other and they hated each other and I was caught in the middle. So I was the adult in a household from a very young age. And listen, I loved my mum and dad desperately. And I know that they did their very best for me, and

But it made me grow up very, very fast and very quickly. And when they would have an argument they would the they would do that awful thing of Joe, tell your father he's shirts are not going to be ironed and I would go in and say, Dad mum says your shirts are not going to be iron Tell your mother that And they're standing in the same room and I would sit there on the stairs listening to them fight and argue.

And then he'd walk out and she'd walk out and I would just carry on. I'd go to the fridge, see what was for dinner. But they were loving parents. But they just couldn't live together. They were too volatile. What did they fight about? Money.

Huh. What does every well what what are most people, let's be honest. Money, um My dad, who was the artist, he had lots of jobs, my father though. My father was a brilliant Brilliant man. But did job.

jump a lot. So he was an architect, he was a painter, he would He was also a member of the magic circle, so he was a magician. I mean, you name it, he could do it. And He was a huge gambler. So they would row about money, they would row about his gambling

Would he like Blow all of his money in like on a poker game? Would he? And the month after that, yes. And then he'd suddenly have a huge win. I remember him one day coming home.

And he draws up in this Amazing Jackua. Where it's like, Well what you didn't have that this morning, so where's that? Well that's one on a poker game. And out the back of the car was all these leather coats that he'd obviously taken as payment from someone's factory who didn't have enough money and my mother said, Get rid of the car, get rid of the coats, we don't want them and so they were driven off up the road. So it was there was always There was never a dull moment, that's for sure, in our house. It never made me love my dad less or love my mum less, though. I could see they were both very good people. And I realised

about my dad and it wasn't until I was much older But when he did those things, he was trying to do something nice for us. And he didn't realise the way he was going about it made my mum feel really insecure. But I saw that actually what he was trying to

He was trying to tell her he loved her. And you know, let's get in the car, put on the coat and let's go for a drink and Even as I'm talking about it, it brings a smile to my face thinking there was so much kindness in my dad, but my goodness, it did often come out the wrong way. And just to clarify, your dad was a like I mean he w obviously an interesting guy. Like he was he sold

paintings and he was a magician and Yes. Well as I said, he didn't keep full time jobs for very long. So he was a magician, he'd gone through magician school and He was a brilliant magician, and I would go and be the magician's assistant. So in our little garden in Bexley Heath we had rabbit hutches with about eight.

ten white Neverland dwarf rabbits. Which of course I had to look after, and I had to look after them in the show'cause they would appear from hats and hop around and do all sorts of things. So I was the magician's assistant. But he would also do his paintings and when he wasn't in a full time employment he still had to earn money.

So we would do he and I would do all the markets at the weekend. We would go set up our little market stall and put all the paintings up. And um I knew that we had to sell three paintings every single Day. 'Cause I knew if we didn't we wouldn't eat.

So I would we would set it all up. And I would send my father off to go and get breakfast very early and I would try and get the first sale. before he came back and I'd pocket the money. So I'd pocket it so I could give it to my mum'cause I knew he would put it in his pocket and we wouldn't see it. So I realised that survival was an important sort of

I guess it was around when you were around age eight. your m there was sort of an important turning point in would would be in your life and in your your mom's life. She met A woman named Madame Lubati who had a a skincare like shop in London and went to work for her. Who was who was Madame Lubati? She was oh my God, I loved her. She was such a

She was such an eclectic human being, so she was in her late seventies when I first met her. And she was this brilliant skincare woman. I think my mum went first of all to just be the receptionist. I my mum became so involved and enjoyed very much working with her. that she took herself off and got herself qualified in anatomy, physiatrics and set to work working as Madame Labati's partner. And this was a like a a skincare salon with Madame Labati. Yeah. It was in Baker it was just off Baker Street in a place called um Montague Mansions, which is

Just around the corner from where Sherlock Holmes was rumored to have um lived and walked. That's when my mum went to work for her. But It wasn't a shop, it was a very private skincare clinic. So at that time in London There were two women who were the skin doyens of the time who would look after all the elite. One was Countess Charkey and the other was Countess Libati. And she had her private clinic. This was a point when women didn't run their own businesses, um, and they certainly didn't weren't successful

in the way that both of them were. But Madame Libarty She was very tall. She was like six two, six three. Blood red lipstick. the most amazed she had the most incredible smell about her it was always Like crushed sandalwood and bulgarian like the finest

Rose oil you ever smelled. She had blonde hair. cropped pixie hair. She always had a white lab coat on. She had cream fishnet tights, very high shoes. And I would often come in if I went with my mum at the weekends, any any chance I had at going

up to Baker Street with my mum, I would go She was like my best friend and I would love her. And I think I got when I first met her, it was just before dementia started to kick in. But I could see I could see signs of it definitely,'cause she'd suddenly forget my name or

she'd forget something and she'd look at me and she'd say, Joe, do you remember where I put it? And I say, Yes, madam. I was like a little helper, her little her eyes and um So by the time I was sort of seven, eight years old I'd spent a long time with her in the laboratory and it was this white room and there was all these like big glass Like old fashioned sweetie jars, but in glass.

And they would ha all have herbs and From roses to sandalwood to slippery elm to campher crystals to I mean, you name it, it was there. There was every jar of honey you could possibly thing and I would watch her make face creams and make face masks up. Was Madame Lubati like a character or was she really like a countess? Wha was she English? Who's her s what's her story? Well her real name was Doris Hildebaker. And she but she did marry a count. And

You know something? I don't know whether some of this was Dementia kicking in, I hope not because She was obviously in her young twenties she was a very sought after young woman. She told me once that she had

Pass messages backwards and forwards in the top of lids of face creams. And I said, Does did that mean you were a spy? And she said, No, no, we never use that word. But I suppose some would say. You know, she was a s she was a great storyteller and I just I loved her. My eyes were like dinner plates the whole time and There was a moment where we walked, I took her out for tea one afternoon.

And she walked down the road and then she suddenly said to me I don't know where I am. And I knew at that moment I cried I remember I cried and I took her hand, I said, I know where we are and I took her home and I told my mum And and it was at that point that we had to get help. And she deteriorated very quickly after that? Um I guess it was around like nineteen seventy four, um, Madame Lubati she she dies and Your mom is her employee. And somehow kind of inherits uh the the business. She wasn't just her employees. She by that point they had bit they had worked as partners, so my mum had worked within the clinic and was equal she'd looked after her

and help pay all her debts. My mom was was very good and very kind to Madame Lupati. And I guess that we should clarify this and I guess you will, but which is like you didn't all of a sudden overnight become rich because Madame Lupati apparently was like bankrupt, like she had no money. Um we certainly didn't become I I don't think my family were ever were ever rich. So when when Madame Lubarty died, um I guess your mom decides to build her own similar type of business, right? And and and continue to make face creams and and and so how did that go? How d how how did her business

Go. Well I mean very well. She ha she built a really successful business. She would go to people's houses, so she didn't have obviously Montague Mansions were sold with on Baker Street and of course I knew how to make the face cream, so I'd been doing it. Oh no, since I was seven, eight years old. So My jobs were to help her. And on a Saturday morning we would, you know, be in the house in Bexley Heath and

When she'd say to me, I need fifty pots of cleansing cream, can you make them? And that was You know, that was my Saturday and I knew how to do it. I wouldn't necessarily measure anything out. I I did everything with such precision as she had taught me.

And I would clean the fridge out and lay all the all the kitchen roll out and I'd c and I'd sterilise all the utensils and I'd boil the water and put the oil and I would trust my nose to tell me when I had to put the oils in at that point it was like a mineral oil and a wax. So you had to wait until it all dissipated in the enamel bucket. Then I let it cool down and the minute it skinned I knew that was the point at which you poured it into the face pots. And then again I would I would sit there and watch them.

And Then I'd lid them and then they'd go into the fridge and that would be the fifty pots and they would sell for five pounds fifty a pot. So I don't think I was proud of myself, but I was I knew that I when I looked at it and we'd sold it, I knew that we could eat. Yeah. That was always my motivation. So all right, so your mom has this business and you are kinda helping her out and it sounds like she's doing

Okay, um and you're still a kid. I mean we should be clear, I mean you were still a uh you know, a a little girl. And I guess by the time you reach what we would call high school, you decide that it's not for you, that you Basically drop out. Well in between that so my mum was very, very sick.

And the thing that really I think probably I woke up one day, I could see my m my dad my dad had disappeared, he'd gone off, we'd run off with someone. And we I was left. and I could see my mum deteriorating slowly and slowly. And one day I came home from school and I found her in a chair rocking herself backwards and forwards. And she wouldn't talk. She wouldn't say anything.

So I rushed to go and get A neighbor. And she came in and she She said Joe take a Take your sister upstairs.

I'm gonna call the doctor and I You know, th they never said your mum's sick, but she your mum's having a turn. That's what that's what she's saying. Well she was ha my mum was having a breakdown. That's what my mum was and she was And you know what when people go through I mean, we talk about it a lot now about mental illness. It's not about being weak. She was she just held it together for too long. She was strong for too long. and she just couldn't hold it any longer. And then it was all down to me.

And I remember social services coming round. And they said that my sister and I would have to go into a home, and I managed I didn't lie. But I certainly didn't tell the truth. I um I just said, No, no, no, there's people around, don't worry, my dad's coming home and they say, Well where is your father? Oh, he's travelling, he's coming back, uh everything'll be fine but for for a year I managed on my own.

I made sure that my sister went to school every day I'd take her and then I'd come back home, nurse my mum, bath my mum, give her a breakfast, make the face creams up, get on the train with a shopping troley. I'd go up to the flat that my mum worked from, sell all the product, put it in, and then come all the way back and then to cook dinner. and I put food on the table and that's when I left s when I stopped going to school. I couldn't see the point of it. I couldn't see the point of sitting there, feeling stupid, being told I was stupid and lazy, and it's like I'm running a business. I know how to make money and how to make face creams, and that was probably the last day I went to school.

And I f I was one of those people that fell through the cracks in the educational system But for that I'm really grateful because it made me. So basically around the time you were independent. I mean you had to work and earn money to live, to to survive.

I was independent. You're absolutely right. The age of sixteen, then when I was Legally allowed. um to leave. So my mum eventually became better. And

I was I didn't realise this at the time, but it was gonna happen again. And it happened twice more. But I thought she was better and you know that I

I wanted to I wanted to be a teenager or a child, so I went to live with a family friend in London. with an amazing family called the Souls. And For the first time in my life I saw what

a family should be. We would sit I we'd never sat at a table and ate a meal together as a family. at home, whereas here every night you would sit And you would talk about your day. And they they were just

the kindest, loveliest people in the whole world and I kind of went to live with them. I got a job in Just in De Blanc's in a little flower shop. I earn twenty nine pounds a week. But it was a really, really, really happy time and what I noticed

I noticed that I had that my sense of smell w was something that was very extraordinary. I didn't realise to what extent. But I would pick up the flowers and I'd say I'd smell the bottom of the end of the thing and the top of the tulip and I'd say They've been in the fridge for three days, I want the fresh ones.

No no no no Joe they're they're absolutely f no, they have, I don't want those. And eventually they just knew That they couldn't if I picked up something to smell. I could tell whether it was fresh or it had been sitting in a fridge. And that that was my first job. And and I think Justin DeBlanc was like a high end grocery store, s something like that in in London at the time. He he was a brilliant entrepreneur. He wanted to be a shopkeeper. So he opened a bakery, I think, first of all, and then he opened a flower shop.

And then he opened a delicatessen, a really high end delicatessen in Elizabeth Street. And I think I think you worked in that delicatessen too, right? Like like with Justin DeBlanc before uh before moving on. Yep. Yeah. And El Fair.

I went on to work in another flower shop. And then from there I went to work with my mum. Um I went back because she was very poorly again, and so that's when I went to work with her. I guess at at a certain point, Joe, maybe you were eighteen or or seventeen, or uh you went to to to Bible school. Yeah.

I I the reason why I asked about Bible school was because I guess that was where you met the person who would b become your partner, Gary, who would become your your husband. Um Yeah, still is still he was also a student there. Yes, he was d he was studying he would have made me laugh now, he'd have made a great vicar. Yeah. But he w yeah, he definitely was thinking about

it full time and we fell in love with each other and I knew that structure was not for me. So you um you meet Gary and You guys the two of you got married Pretty young. I mean you I think you were twenty or twenty one. twenty one.

Yes. And that was sort of around the time where you're Your mom had asked you to come back and help her out. And v soon after she has It sounds like I think

If I'm right, I mean she had a stroke, right? She it was like a stroke and it w but there were severe complications with it as well. So the the woman Who was taken into hospital that night, never returned.

Completely. Yeah, completely. And and I don't blame her for that. but it was our relationship from that moment was never the same. She was never the mother that I had remembered.

everything I did was wrong. She completely changed and of course the more successful I became in the business the more she hated me because I was living the life that she wanted to live. And we were a young married couple by the time that she came out of hospital and everything and it was just like I just can't live like this. Yeah. Uh there was one incident where she I was upstairs doing someone's face and I came down to the kitchen to pick up a face mask halfway through and as I walked through she picked up a part of a face cream and she threw it at me And it landed. All the way down my face.

And I stood there and it was the I It was just the utter humiliation, I think, of of the whole thing. And I snapped and I said, That's it. and I remember going upstairs finishing I finished the day and I finished the woman's face and I wiped my hair and I sobbed and I walked out of that house and thought that if I if I stay here I'll die. And um so I made the decision that I was gonna walk away that day and I did. But unbelown to me, I'd signed something

that um made me responsible for all the debt. So as I walked out of that door as a young woman, newly married, thinking I'm you know, gonna start again, little did I know that I ha was gonna have debt that I would have to pay off for the next Goodness knows how many years and I did. basically were your m your mom's business partner. But somehow um

This business was saddled with thousands of pounds of debt that you now We're responsible for? Yeah. I did what I'd done all my life, which is

accept the responsibility even though it wasn't my fault and just get on and Push through. Hm. Wow. So all right, so it's like nineteen eighty eight

Um, or eighty nine, you're you're about, I guess twenty four. Um your m mom obviously Can not run a business at that point and you take on like thirty thousand pounds I guess r rough forty thousand dollars roughly of of debt at the time. So w what are you gonna do? Like how are you gonna make money to start

Paying this off. I went back to the four plastic jugs and the saucepan which had been my probably my best friends all my life. You meant you mean you started to make face lotions and creams? I just thought what can I do? And it was by that point Guy, it was in my blood. And so I set up

And I would carry my massage bed. from house to house. And I would do people's faces and I would go to one house and I'd say you got any sisters, you know, if I can stay here and do three, four treatments, I knew that it was a really good day. And that's how I existed for a good six to eight months. And I started to build a Cleantel together. They were my word of mouth, you know, they did all the marketing for me. I didn't have to do it.

I do the faces, I'd come home, I get a taxi, or Gary would pick me up. And I make the face creams and I get ready for the next day. Huh. And that was our existence. Can I ask you about face creams from an I mean, I I'm curious, like how do you make face creams? Like what were you buying and mixing together?

Well, um cosmetics are either oil into water or water into oil. It's like cooking, it's like making a white sauce or a red sauce. It it was in those days anyway, it's m a little bit more complex now. But I would take the the waxes down or add the oils and boil it all up, strain it through muslin, let it stand for twenty four hours, then go back, add all the essential oils of at the time we had a a juniper skin tonic, which was the most wonderful fresh green tonic that you'd put on your skin. And your skin would just

come alive. It would never dry out. So I would, you know, do all of those things and I suppose I suppose making juniper. is a bit like making vodka or gin. It's all the same sort of pieces in it. So And these are things you you knew how to do intuitively'cause your mom had studied how to do it and you just grew up as a kid helping her out, d doing it with her, I guess. Uh I'd watched, I'd watched, but it was also the all the years of Madam with Madame Lobati. You know, it was all of those things like the yogurt face mask that I still make today, that I learnt to make that in Baker Street with a yogurt, honey

A little bit of lemon juice to kind of sour the milk, honey, sandalwood powder, slippery elm powder, olive oil, avocado or hooba oil. I knew how to do it. And I still you know, it's still within me, I still know and understand how to it's when you i do you know what making ten to twelve pots of ice cream is easy It's when you scale it. It's when you get to a hundred pots and five thousand. That's when it's hard. Yeah, because you have to you have to alter and of course Health and safety and health and hygiene or whatever didn't exist in those days. Today you couldn't stand in your kitchen.

and be pouring face cream in and put it in your fridge. You wouldn't be able to do that, but Way back then it was perfectly acceptable and perfectly okay. And you ha and you did this all out of your apartment where y where you and Gary were living? Yes. We had rented a small apartment in Chelsea and I would transform this little flat into a tiny little exclusive skincare clinic. and we decided that this business this business was taking fourteen to sixteen hours a day. So perhaps we would live in the flat where we were working.

But of course it was no bedroom. It was just a one skincare room, one kitchen, and a beautiful big sitting room. So we went to home base and bought a piece of blue foam and that was our bed for probably about four or five years and we would roll it out and then we'd hide it. Oh when people come in for the treatments, right. We'd so chic a luxury, isn't it? We'd roll it up and it would go into the laundry closet. and everything would be transformed and it would look like a little shop in the sitting room with this big bookcase and it would be full of product and by the end of every day Everything was gone. So the minute the last client went, which was about six thirty, quarter to seven, I'd make myself a a big strong cup of coffee.

stand in the kitchen that was just so tight. It wasn't it was no more than two people standing there. Plastic jugs would come out and I would start and I'd look at my appointment list and who was coming, and I knew that certain women would want six bottles of cream, so I would make a big super duper thing, and by the time Gary came home, hoping for dinner, he would be filling the bottles and labelling them. And by about eleven, twelve we'd roll out a piece of blue foam, lie down, go to sleep, and then the next day we'd wake up again. Well.

And then I think the turning point was the third or the fourth Christmas. And he walked in one evening and he had a pizza in his hand. And I just said Gary There's hundreds of orders come in and we've got to have them done by the end of the week. And he said, Let me just have my supper and I'll do it and he sat down to eat his dinner and of course I touched everything in the kitchen with fragrance. So his pizza tasted of nutmeg and ginger. He went to make himself a cup of tea and everything bubbled up over the coffee cup. and he said, I can't do this anymore, if we carry on, we're gonna end a divorce And I I looked and he said, I'm gonna go and have a shower and just I'll come back in a minute and I thought, Oh my God, no'cause I'd put all these sea shells in the bath and I was scenting them with lavender, sea lavender oil. And I heard him scream as he went in and I thought, I'm really in trouble and he c he walked down the hall and he said, Um

Okay. We need a shop. And I went, I don't want a shop and he said, No, that's it. And that night we sat down and he said, I think I should leave my job. And I think we should go into business together.

And I will help you I'll be the everything that you're not and enable you to do this. But we can't carry on living like this. And he was right. It was breaking point. When we come back in just a moment. How Joe moved out of the kitchen and into a brick and mortar shop. and how she managed to build buzz even before the doors opened. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

from NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 1994, Joe and Gary have both decided to go all in on Joe's cosmetics business. They have about a year's worth of cash to start out with, and Gary has insisted that the business needs to get out of their apartment and into a space of its own. So we walked along Walton Street one day and he'd found three sites. And I looked at them and I I went, No, no, I just I have this always this thing about gut.

that gut feeling and I let them know and as he walked down the street he was that that point not talking to me and just he just said You're just impossible, Joe and I walk past this one shop and it was a building site. And I felt the shop say it's me. And he literally went, You have got to be joking. And I went it's that one. And that's where we started. And and w and I guess it was it just obvious you were gonna call Joe Malone? Yeah. I mean I didn't I w I was Joe Malone. I didn't I didn't even think about that. And it was by that point well of course we have products with Joe Malone London on it. You know, we've done all the packaging. So yes, it it was a I don't think we even thought about that.

It it sounds like for most of the early days of your business. You were making face lotions and creams and and body oils, but today of of course m I think most people think of Joe Malone as a perfume. So when did that start? When did you start making perfumes? Completely topsy turvy, so normally it's a fragrance that comes first, and then what we call ancillaries. Right. Mine was the other way round. So I was doing I created a body lotion first of all. From there I created a bar foil, and then from the barfoil I went to the fragrance. Because of course I wasn't allowed

Alcohol. So you need alcohol to manufacture fragrance and I didn't have that. Why why weren't you allowed to have alcohol? Well, I was living in a in in premises I couldn't have a whole lot of flammable alcohol to make it. It wasn't safe to make it. I couldn't have the amount I needed as well. And you needed when you make fragrants you have to Let it stand. garlic into olive oil and you have to let it sit and then you have to filter it. It's very technical, but I wasn't allowed to have huge

amounts of like fo forty, fifty kilos of neat alcohol to make fragrance with. So the fragrants was the last thing that came in the line. But by that point when we had the one of Gary's first jobs when he came to work together was to go and find factories. And that man literally drove round England to all the factories and they said, Well Gary, can you give us the formulation and we'll just follow it? And he said, Unfortunately it's in Joe's head. So I had to go with him and I had to stand in the laboratories which are very frustrating'cause they pour it in And

I'd smell it, and I go, You can't smell it. Well you can't put any more fragrance than that in. And I went Give me the thing and I'd put another like huge dollop in and I'd go Yep, that's it. That's the level. And they said P

You can't be at that level. In Bartholomew You can't do that. And I said Why not? Who says I can't? And I remember someone saying to me, No one's gonna buy a fragrance called Lime Basil and Mandarin. And I remember looking at them and saying, Why not? That's what it is. Why are we pretending to call it something it's not? Well they were wrong. It did. Joe, how are you coming up with fragrances like lime basil and and mandarin or nutmeg and ginger like how how are you coming up with the scents for the perfumes?

The way I create today is slightly different than when I did in those in those days. I would just create single notes and then lot them together like music. And I would smell it in my head and then I'd create it in a little little jar, glass jar, and I'd put it into a body lotion or a bath oil. It's often how I would test things first of all. And then test it, see if it worked, and then if it weren't, form uh get it formulated, get it bottled, get it out there. And that was my there wasn't that you know the testing period was done on me. Poor Gary used to have everything slathered all over him to see if it lasted.'Ca you're not just looking at the smell of something, you're looking What does it do in thirty seconds? What does it do in a minute? What is it doing in an hour? How does it dry down? What is it So you're looking at all of those, you know, different elements. Yeah. And and when you talk about notes, right, you're talking I mean we we think of musical notes, but you're talking about scent notes, right? Like like for example the the smell of vanilla or the smell of ginger.

Like that would each of those things would be one note or are there multiple notes in each ingredient? They're a chord, so it just think of it just like music or or mixing paint. on a palette. So what we're the what I'm doing is I'm taking if I look at a jasmine and it's too heady, what I'm looking for is that fine mist that comes from a fountain in the heat in Malaysia in the middle of the afternoon. So I'm taking the jasmine out and recreating it. So I'm creating these little little notes and accords that I'm smelling. And then I run round and I pick like crush green palm leaves, and I'm taking that and then I twist it round the jasmine, so I'm looking for notes that

sit together and that make the fragran bigger and tell a bigger story. And then I'm delving into my memory for all the all the memories that I have of notes from I don't know, the riding a horse in Montana, the leather of a saddle in a rainstorm. to the smell of broth cooking on a breech in in Parakey, which is the smell of pomelo to me, the skin of a food. So It's it's an art form, but I'm t I'm telling you stories or I'm writing poetry to you, I'm writing music. Um I'm I'm just telling you and piecing together those notes

And then allowing you to have your own memory with that fragrance. So it just seemed like an obvious extension. You know, you were already making the lotions that that had fragrances, so why not just just take the fragrance out and put it in it in its own bottle? People were asking for it. There were people saying that when where can I buy the fragrance from? So it was a we knew it was it was a wantable product and we knew that people wanted it. Even in the early days when you opened the the store, like I I I read that uh

Like w there were lines w of people waiting to come in before you even opened up. But what I'm wondering is how do they know about the store? I mean were you g w were were you Did you hire a PR firm? Were you getting b were you going pitching newspapers and trying to get articles written about you? H how how did that happen? So I had a face client called Deborah Bennett. And Deborah Bennett, she'd been a very dear part of our lives for a long time and she said, I'll help you And she did. We did a big party to launch the shop and we did a an amazing piece in British Vogue.

uh the telegraph to I mean everybody did. Everybody came out and supported And wrote about the shop and it just Just took off like wildfire. But by that point we had a good fifteen hundred to two thousand people that were loyal to the product. And that first Christmas, of course, the minute we hit January we saw our market literally triple because everyone that had been given a product at Christmas was then coming back buying it for themselves and then giving it as a gift. So it was it was a phenomenal growth pattern that we saw.

At that time, nineteen ninety four, right, um When you when you open the the shop. Did you with was the the label like did it already look the way Joe Malone products look today? Did w was that the look already at that point? Uh yes, yeah, pretty much. And it was one of my face clients. She's a lady called Isabel Atwe. And she is one of my best friends to this day. She came and had her face done one day and I was sitting there and she said

What would you like to do with the packaging? And she sat on the floor with me with some empty cream and black boxes. And I said, Well I want this here and It's so funny, when you're successful, people always claim that they were the ones that did it. I've read a lot of things about people who said they did it. They didn't. It was Isabella Tedgeby that did it, and she was the one that put the packaging together. And as we were sitting there I said it's still missing something. And she turned around and on the back of the sofa Gary had left a a tie, a black tie from an event that we'd been at and she picked it up and wrapped it round it, and that was the black ribbon.

And so it was her genius and'cause it's iconic now, right? It's like the Joe Malone box with the little square and the black bow tie. She then took it to her graphic designer And they did drawings and whatever and the minute I saw it it's like, Yeah, that's it. And that was That's what we used. You know, it's interesting, Joe,'cause we've done other cosmetics um brands on the show like Bobby Brown and bliss and it's interesting'cause it was this seems like it was a turning point

in the industry are you know, in the US and in the UK. Like this is a time when people started to notice these very kind of clean products, you know, these c and like Kiel's is an example of that, right? Like you walked into Kiel's in the nineties and it looked like a pharmacy. And it sounds like What a similar thing was happening with Joe Malone, like you had a very clear aesthetic that s people seemed to

Kind of be attracted to. I think I think we were very much the uh the pioneers of the indie brands that are today. All of us in all of our own businesses had that

turning point, but it was it wasn't just about what the aesthetic was, it was what was in the bottle. it was a storytelling, authentic, real heartbeat of a person behind a brand. So all of those people you mentioned, Bobby Brown uh Marcia Kilgore of Bliss and all of us were it didn't matter where we were coming from, whether it be colour, hair, skin, Fragrance we were all really doing the same thing.

and people were identifying with them. So suddenly it wasn't it was about buying into a lifestyle. And I think a lot of the indie brands we were the pioneers that carved out that marketplace for us because at that time they were the poor cousin. today they're certainly not. They're they they're the brands where everybody, you know, the the big guys want to buy them because they can see that we had created things that they with all their money and all their teams and all their budgets Could not create.

And we were still very much connected with our brands. And you could feel the personality of the founder within that brand. And I think that was a huge part of the success of it. Yeah, I mean this is the you know the story of of what was what's been called disruption, right? Which is like Two people like you and Gary could could b hang out in your kitchen and make this iconic brand, but huge multinationals couldn't actually do that because they they weren't as nimble. Right.

they couldn't move as quickly'cause they had huge, enormous businesses. It's just they had lots of uh Teams and by the time you have an idea and it gets through to I mean, listen, I've sat on both sides of the fence, so I understand both of them. I think the agility of a young indie brand or you know, these young entrepreneurial brands and the way that they have an idea and they spin it and they turn it and they twist it. and they move with it and they they're listening to the voice of the people and they're listening to their own inner created voice and it's that relationship that brings the product to market faster and quicker.

Th this is so so like you I mean, I think y you open the store in ninety four. Within like six months you hit your five year revenue goal and Fifteen months in, you hit a million dollars in sales. This is not I mean, this is still k kind of a time when entrepreneurs like yourself, um were not going to like private equity and uh outside investors. It wasn't like today you you might have done that at this point, right? You would have had investors coming in and at that point you were y your revenue was d was fueling the business, right? Your cash flow was allowing you to to develop a you know more products and to expand, I guess uh is that sort of how how it worked? Well, kinda in the beginning it did, yeah, because there was um I mean we hit our first million

on Christmas Eve, which is um that always just makes me feel so good. So it was It was Christmas Eve and we'd shut the shop, and as I did the takings on the till, we were three hundred and forty. two pounds I think it was shorts of our first million. So I looked at Gary and I said, Open the door, we can't shut the shut the shop. And so we opened the door and it was all men. It was all men who were so glad we'd opened the door and they were it was like three thirty in the afternoon. We opened the door and they all came rolling in and we could see it sort of adding up and within ten minutes we'd done it. But the guy that took us over the million was um

he said, I want the cheapest thing you've got so I can put it in her stocking. And it was an eight ninety five shower geler. She'll never, ever forget it, and as I wrapped it, I handed it back to him and gave him a bottle of Dom Peron champagne and I said, Merry Christmas and he looked and he said You're never gonna make a great businessman by doing that to everybody. He had no idea but it was him that took us over. I imagine that neither of you were personally getting rich because you had to buy product, you had to make product, you had to use the cash flow to hire staff and to put it right back into the business, right?

Yeah. If you if you want a business to grow, you've got to invest back into it. So there was um and by that point we were growing, so We couldn't we couldn't just buy fifty plastic bottles at a time. We were buying Two to three thousand plastic bottles at a time. And and w at this point you still had one shop on Walton Street. And at at this point did you start to think Uh

Or w were you focused on just that that one shop on multiple? Hounded. when I say hounded, we had every buyer um every agency, every single person saying to Gary, we want this product from New York to LA to I mean you name it.

They wanted you to open your own shops or they just wanted to import your products and sell it at their shops. No, they wanted to import the product. So what happened was Dormello, who's one of the the great iconic shopkeepers of our Yeah.

And at that time she was heading a department store in New York City, which is the number one Bergdorf Goodman. And by that point he we had a lot of a New York LA consumer base. that were buying from London. So there was obviously a you know a demand and a hunger for it. And she said

We'll give you a little bit of space and Gary turn and said If you want Joe Maline, you have to build us a shop. And of course we were these two tiny g we had no money, we had no budget. And sh I remember her looking at him. She was so wonderful and she went Okay, you come to New York City and we'll talk about it. And that's what we did. So we went to New York. And we had this tiny little rotunda.

She said you can have that space and that's it. And she said, Anything else? And he said, Yes, I want to use my own packaging. Well, that they nearly all flipped and all all nearly walked out of the the meeting room at that point. And I was ready to go, Oh, Gary, just You know. We'll use Bergdorf Goodman bags and he said, No, we're going to use Joe Malone bags we have to

And they eventually Yielded and let us let us use our own packaging. So you basically walk out of Bergdorf Goodman holding a Joe Malone bag, not a Bergdorf Goodman bag. Yep. Yeah. And I I mean let me tell you that was That was all him. That was not me. I was ready to yield on that one. And of course he had been s thinking strategically, so

When I run up to opening in Bergdove Gubner, and you know, the the rule of thumb is there's no point taking any brand or any product to any part of the world, no matter how brilliant it is, if no one knows it's there. So you have to create this buzz and you have to create the voice and you have to create the wantability. So we'd got back to the hotel. Went up to the

Hotel room. And he started to unpack this box with all these bags in. And I said, What are you doing? And he said, I'm making bags up and he started to make Joe Malone bags up and put the black ribbon on the outside. I said

W there's nothing in them. And he said No one else knows that. We employed.

People. to walk round New York City holding ten empty Joe Malone bags. For the month and the six weeks run up to opening in Bergdorf Goodman. And by the time we did, everybody had seen these Germanine

And everybody thought that it was a much more successful brand than it was, but it was converted in empty bags. We call it walking the dogs and we still do it today. Yeah. And it worked. It was genius. I have to imagine that you were constantly getting pinged by people who Who who wanted to franchise this business, who were saying, Hey, we want to invest, we want to open up Joe Malone shops all over the US and how are you dealing with that? I mean, was that first of all, was that happening? Um

Yes. Yeah, I mean y yes it was it was happening, but it didn't feel right. I was look I knew I was looking for three things. I was looking for people with deep pockets. I was looking for the financial bit, but I needed someone to teach us about distribution because we could see that distribution was a key and it was probably one of the things we were lacking. But more importantly, I needed somebody that really loved What we did and what they did.

Yeah, he so here's a question, nineteen ninety nine. You have this hugely successful brand. You've got lines out the door, you're at Bergdorf Goodman, and you sell to Estee Lauder. I mean why why did you decide To do that. Because I found all three, and I knew I had

So those three things, you know, you can often you can find money You can find distribution, but it was that last part about heart. It was Do they love me? and this business and and do I love who they are. That was a really important part to me and I couldn't find that last missing piece until I met Mr Lauder. And when I sat with Leonard Lauder, he reminded me of myself.

For me, he was a great entrepreneurial spirit. who love the beauty industry. And who'd walked beside his mum. So there was lots of the similarities and when we were negotiating it was I was gonna stay for the rest of my life. So it w I needed something that I knew

was gonna be for the rest of my life. I I I wanted to stay and I wanted to continue to be Joe. And the day that we agreed it and signed was probably one of the happiest days of my life. So you are now Joe Malone is now owned by Estee Lauder and you are, you know, essentially an employee of Estee Lauder. You become the creative director. of your of your brand alone and

you're still running it and it it sounds like it didn't feel a whole whole lot different and And I guess within uh two two years or three years of of that happening You are diagnosed with breast cancer. Um Which

I'm I'm sure came as a shock. You were just thirty seven, thirty eight years old when when you got that diagnosis? Yes, I was. I was in New York City. I remember it vividly. I'd only just have Josh my son, he was sort of Two, I think. eighteen months too and I was so tired all the time. And I'd never felt that I'd never felt sick or I'd never felt weary.

And I was in the four seasons in New York City in the hotel one morning. And I found something just Oh my kind of Chest bone. I went back home, went to see the doctor, and that night I

As I sat When they they done all the tests. And I looked at the nurse's face and I looked at the doctor's face and I knew it was really bad news. I just could feel it. And he looked at me and he said, I'm you know, I'm terribly sorry to tell you, but uh it looks like you have a very aggressive form of breast cancer and um

we think that you need to get your life in order. They were he was basically telling me I didn't have long to live. And I just my I watch poor Gary just collapse on the floor and Yeah. I was um it was a we it was such a weird moment'cause I was dressed to go to this big party in London called the Serpentine Party. And I remember fiddling with my earrings in my pocket thinking okay, well

I'll just get through this and then I'll go to the party and I'll And then I suddenly realised that someone had given me a death sentence. And it started to sink in and then I then all I could think about was Josh and Gary. That's the only I didn't care about any of the rest of it. But my son And I just remember thinking

I'll never see him go to school, I'll never see him go to unial, never see him get married, you know, there's always awful, awful And then I went home, Gary was just in pieces, complete pieces, and trying to be strong, and I sat on the end of my bed. I remember thinking Ciao!

You've never listened to a word anyone has ever told you in your life. Why on earth are you gonna listen now? When we come back in just a moment. Hajomalone's battle with cancer leads her to walk away from the brand with her name. For good. Stay with us.

I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This. Rem N PR. Welcome back to how I built this from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's two thousand two and Jo has just received the news of her cancer diagnosis.

And almost immediately, the Lauder family connects Joe with a specialist in New York. to start a treatment. So we all moved out and we ran the business from New York City and Gary would commute backwards and forwards. Josh was tiny, so he was very easy to manoeuvre around. But I was, um I was really suffer I just suffered so badly through it, but I kept telling myself that

Grinn and Berich I Grin and Berri can come through this, and I had I mean Larry Norton just was the most incredible incredible doctor. Sloan Kittering, yeah. Yeah. He's one of those people in my life that without him I wouldn't be sitting talking to you today. And so I did uh I did one mastectomy, then we got through all the chemo, then I had to do the chemo all over again. And then on that last bit when I thought it was all over

They found something else in the other breast, so I had to go through it all again. I can't tell you I was the the chemo had really taken over. And then one day Larry walked in and said, It's gone.

Wow. It's It's time to go home and go back and live your life. And I said, Will it come back? and he said, I don't know, but we you have to go back and live your life and and my life was back in my hands again and I knew that I had to do something

remarkable with it. Which I mean I think for anybody who goes through an experience like that where you are so close to death, it puts your life into perspective and

You um. And you came to a g a conclusion I think ninety nine percent of people would come to, including myself, which is work and that part of me isn't important. It's My family, it's taking advantage of life and living it to its fullest, and you decide that you've gotta leave work. You wanna leave because uh

For obvious reasons, I mean I think, right? Because you you you went through this experience. I think Well, I'd the chemo had taken my sense of smell. I hadn't told anyone that. And I couldn't smell properly. And that was your superpower, your sense your sense of smell. It w it was, and I hadn't told anyone that, um at all.

I was too scared to even admit it to myself and I was standing in um in the shop on Madison Avenue. And I just didn't feel as though I belonged anymore. I I I was so concerned for everybody involved. I didn't want to do Anything wrong.

with the Lauder Corporation and the Lauders'cause they'd save my life. Yeah. I didn't want to see one person lose their job because that was their lives. But I knew I couldn't stay as the person I was, so I went to Leonard. And um I explained to him and he

They all tried to change my mind and said, Please think again, think again and I was so determined guy to to to walk away. Yeah. So I flew back to London. And as I got nearer to that day of leaving I knew I'd made the biggest mistake of my life. Why?

because I started to realise that It wasn't a job, it was my best friend. Yeah. It was your n it was you, your identity. It was Everything.

It was about the creativity. And I realised that I would never create fragrants again and I would never do all the things that I loved and and everybody was running and getting everything ready and Gary was doing all the forms and and I wanted to scream and say, Please, can we just stop? And I know if I had It would have done. I know Leonard would have made it stop. and I said to him, Can I be the last person to turn the lock in the key on that last day? And he said, Yes, you can and I sobbed and sobbed as I put the bottles on the shelf for the last time.

And I realized who on earth was I ever gonna be again? Who Wha what had I done? What had I done? But I still couldn't smell and I'd signed a five year lock out. A non compete. A non compete for five years. Yeah. and I suddenly felt this big heavy noose coming tighter and tighter and tighter around my neck. And then

A month into it all being over, I woke up one morning And I could smell. And I could smell like I'd never smell before. And of course that that's when I started to really suffer from anxiety. This is an important point because I think a lot of people hear stories on our show um like yours, right, where people sell their businesses, whether it's Bobby Brown or Kate Spade or um Marcia Kilgore and you know, they they might think, Well, now she's got it made. You know, she's sold this company, she's financially secure for life, and she can go and um, you know, travel and do whatever she wants. Um but people forget that businesses not aren't about Money they're about.

Your identity, they're who you are, they're the things that you that animate us, right? It was those late nights in the apartment in Chelsea, um, eating pizzas and making lotions and getting clients and it was it was all those things that made your life gave your your life meaning up until that point. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, you're I'd laughed with the business, I'd cried with it, I built it, I'd seen it. you know, all the emotions that you have with a human being I'd had with a business. I know that sounds weird, but that's and it I was suddenly I was suddenly walking away from

My best friend. It was didn't have two arms and two legs, but it had a heartbeat and it had creativity and it had a conversation and it taught me things and When I walked away I couldn't even walk past the shop. I I could feel myself getting choked up and I felt resentful, I felt angry, I felt hurt. I I was g what I now know, I was going through the five steps of grief. Yeah.

I was grieving. for something. But you know, and people listening to this will s will say, Well, come on, Jay, you know, you had enough money in the bank, but All I wanted to do was make a face cream and sell it. And I'd I'd signed five years of shackles and and it was the it was the most miserable five years of my life. So how did you

I think you call it your wilderness years, um, or it's been it's been called that. What did you how did you navigate those five years? What did you do? I went I helped other people with their businesses, I sat on boards and all I wanted to do was Yeah.

But of course I was Living this smiley Mosque. and crying every single night. And just thinking and I kept I had my first anxiety attack and I thought I was having a heart attack and

Often anxiety is connected with energy and when your adrenaline starts to come back. And I realised that's what was happening to me. My body was starting to tell me, Come on, you know, I get ready to run again. It's time to do something. Yeah. And I um made a television show actually for the BBC called High Street Dreams. I formulated it and sold the idea to the BBC and we made that. And I was I was standing in a garden with a pair of Willington boots on and I was feeling bottles of chili sauce with his family. And you were doing this this show for s aspiring entrepreneurs on the BBC and and and one of the aspiring entrepreneurs was a

uh a family that was making like a hot sauce, right? Like a chili sauce. That's exactly. I was filling these bottles and I could feel the liquid and screwing and I just felt this come on, just try one more time. So I made it made my my mind up that day standing in that garden that I would try one more time and see if I could do it. while you were kinda helping them out, you all of a sudden had flashbacks to the excitement of filling bottles up with stuff. Yeah. It just took me just took me back I think it was this It was just filling bottles, it was that whole simplicity and that simple act, but it reminded me of who I'd been, who I was, and who I really wanted to be again.

Once that five year period, um, that sort of non compete period ended, you were free to to to start a new business, um, but presumably you couldn't use your name. And this is I mean, this happens with like famous Amos cookies, like the Wally Amos couldn't he he couldn't use his name. Um and and uh Bobby Brown can't use her her name for a business in in quite the same way. So presumably you could not use Joe Malone for the next business that you wanted to start? I couldn't use Joe Malone, I couldn't I still can't. I'm able to use it as the person and as my voice, but I'm not able to use it in any other capacity in in beauty or whatever.

But I was allowed to use jug. So that was I was felt like I was kinda halfway there. But I had to make sure that the consumer wasn't confused. So One night at dinner. I was sitting with my son Josh and Gary and we were sitting having dinner.

And we were looking at all kinds of names and he'd obviously been listening to this in the background, and he just looked at me and he went, Mum Why don't you just call it Joe Loves? Yeah. Because you really love

fragrance and fragrants really loves you. And it was just so profound You know, out of the mouths of an eight year old or ten year old of I think it was at that time. So we we went back to the lawyers and it went backwards and forwards. And before we did anything and we showed anyone or anyone saw anything, we took it back To

the legal team at Lord and showed them. And said this is what we want to do. Wow. So you launched this new company, um a a fragrant company called Joe Loves in I guess two thousand eleven, and I mean obviously you were established, you were known, but I mean did it still feel I I mean, I don't know W were you nervous? Were you like were you calling it? I was beyond nervous. I felt I was standing on the stage in my underwear. Because

The world had seen me on a global stage and assumed I was still there. Nobody knew I'd left. And when we first set out with Joe Loves we ran straight into doing a pop up in Selfridge's And we moved in there overnight. And

four o'clock in the morning, we were there with all the builders and I look was watching it and I hated what I saw. I hated it. I just could feel it inside and I thought, Why have you done this? Why have you Why have you put yourself in this position, Joe, you idiot. I hated the way it looked. You hated the colours?

It was if you look at some of the images in the beginning, it was all this red and black and it's harsh and it's It's almost like a teenager that's dyed her hair red and comes into dinner screaming. I that was that was the only way I can describe it. That's what it felt like that I'd done. The packaging was all over the place. the the team went try I mean it was It was such a mess when I think about it.

And I thought you've got to open tomorrow morning and you're gonna have to face it and you're gonna have to work through this,'cause if you really want to do this You're gonna have to eat a little bit of humble pie and you're you're gonna look a bit of a fool for a minute. So We opened the next morning and we just couldn't get traction in this business. And it didn't matter what we tried and what we did, we could not

We just couldn't get those sales. And for two years. I struggled. Yeah, I rec Every single day

I sat and I regretted Building this business. bleeding money, number one. And I had no sales, number two. Yeah.

And nobody knew I was there. It was It was ludicrous when I think about why I ran Like I sprinted into the onto that arena thinking that I had Thinking I had the right to go back in where I'd left. That was that was the biggest lesson for me.

And it got to a point I was coming up to my birthday. And Gary comes in one morning and he hands me this little box and he says, Happy birthday. And I looked and I opened it was a key. And I just thought What's he done?

Anyway, we jumped in the car, we drove down. And he says happy birthday. Go be a shopkeeper again,'cause you're an absolute nightmare. And I opened the door and I said to you no idea. where we are and he said, Yes I do.

And I said, No, no, no, you don't he said, Yes, I do. You've come full circle, and I said yes. It was the shop where Justin DeBlanc taught me to be a shopkeeper. It was a flower shop. that you worked at as a young woman. It was the delicateessence. The delicate. It was the deli. And it was where I fell in love with shopkeeping. I put the key in the door.

And I couldn't believe it. I just couldn't believe that I was back home. Um we spent a year You're doing the shop. Creating it. And the day we opened the door, the sign the the cue was there as I came.

As I pulled up on that first day, it was it was happening again. Wow. So it really took you opening that shop up to Get people to know to know about the brand because it it it it it's'cause I I guess you were doing pop ups and you were tr you were sort of selling it at different, you know, cosmetic stores and but really the shop was your best advertisement. Well it always is your home, isn't it? You know, if you invite someone for dinner

and you sit on the outside pavement and you to eat fish and chips, you know, you'd it it if you invite someone home to your brand, it's gotta have four walls so you've gotta feel you've gotta feel the warmth of that brand. And it was a huge responsibility because of course If a pop up doesn't work, you move on. If you sign that lease, you've got to make it work. So I had that nervousness, I had that fear because I'd had two years of feeling an absolute failure. I think having those four walls and

As I walked through I said to Gary, um We we've got to do it differently. I c I can't I don't want to w I didn't want to walk in the same footsteps as I'd done before. I didn't I'd grown up, I was a different person, my My life felt very different and my creativity was much raw and much braver than it had been You know

twenty five, thirty years previous. And he said, What does that mean? And he looked at I mean, Gary sometimes looks at me and I can see him thinking, Oh, here we go, she's off And I said, I want to create a brasserie and he went, No, that's it. That's it. And I said no no no listen he said no I'm no it hasn't got a food license for not doing a brasserie. There's a pub next door and I said, No, I want to create a brasserie for your nose. I could see it all in my head. I knew exactly what I wanted to do and that's exactly what we did. We created a brasserie for your nose. And you can go in just to describe how it works. You go in and you

Things to smell. Yes, so you sit as though you're just about to eat, you have a menu, you have and it's known as a tapas bar for your nose and your tray comes up with a um a tegine and your bath cologne though is in the tagine, you have chopsticks um with cotton wool, so you think you're about to eat dim sum, but in fact everything is about the sense of smell. your body lotions uh appear from Velute guns and we paint you with hot paint brushes all over your body. Everything is about

twisting and turning the experience. and causing your sense of smell to be the predominant sense and it it's still with us today. It's very much part of our storytelling and when we go around the world we take a portable tapas bar with us and we entertain with With our fragrance.

How How much I mean a lot of a lot of times when you know you meet pe I'm sure this happened to you and Gary, where people would say, How could you work with your partner? How could you work with your spouse. partners with married couples who b built successful businesses and in some cases divorced and continued to run the business. But it sounds like in your case, like the partnership between you and Gary was really the kind of the secret of what made this work. That both of you brought different skill sets and you both respected each other's strengths and weaknesses and that was really what enabled you to be successful.

We haven't always respected each other's u uh uh you know, opinions. We've uh we've had some really hum thing. Actually w Where business is concerned though, he and I I would say ninety nine point nine percent of the time are always on the same page. We come at it from a very different perspective, but we always meet at that point where we agree. I look at him and things that come out of his head and his mouth are so smart and things that I could never possibly do. There's a

we're best friends. We trust if we stood back to back, we know that each other would look after each other. But y y sometimes it's hard, you know, sometimes I remember in the very beginning I would Talk all weekend about. about work and he would say, Okay, you've got five things this weekend Then once you've done your five things you have to stop.

Well nine thirty Saturday morning I'd used up my five things'cause I'd already spoken about it. And I used to get so frustrated'cause I had to wait until Monday. And then we realise that that just But Work to us is not a job or business or a career.

It is part of our lives, it's been part of our marriage, it's been part of our family. It's part of our relationship. And I think we both actually it's like a drug. I think we both love it. Yeah.

So you had been through the process of starting a business and a successful brand and then selling it and And watching that brand grow, right? All the resources that Estee Lauder had to to really scale that brand. Joe Malone is in shops all around the world and it's ubiquitous. With with your brand now with Joe Loves, what I mean, do you have those kinds of ambitions? Do you see it as

As a as a global brand one day, or are d are you kinda happy with where where it is now and and sort of I absolutely saw it as a global brand. I'm passionate about what I do. And it's not about just creating fragrance. I had this crazy idea that once in my life I wanted to completely challenge and change the way the world did something in fragrance. I nev didn't know what it would be, but I was determined I was gonna find it. And a couple of years ago it was sitting right by the side of me and it was in the form of a paintbrush.

And I created a fragrance paintbrush where you can paint your body. And this little fragrant paintbrush when I first presented it to my marketing guys at the time, they all looked at me and said, Oh, it'll never work, it's such a gimmick. And I was so humiliated in that meeting and I was so angry and I thought I'll show you it works. So I put the prototype together, I went to the factories myself and I created everything within it. Do you know what, that paintbrush

has been like a golden ticket. Because that is the point in brands today you have to find that connects with the consumer and the world that says we are going to do it differently.

And that paintbrush now is going around. That's the thing that is converting China. That is that is the one single product because they've never seen it before. And suddenly this younger generation are like It's art for your body. I can paint my body with fragrance. So I think Joe Loves is is all about the springboard of creativity. It and it allows me to to go jump with all my crazy imaginative ideas and trust me there's hundreds of them still there. And I run at this business and I jump. And I use her as like a like a laboratory to say what if. I'm looking at it right now uh on the internet and uh just to describe it, it's like um it's another way to apply perfume, right? It's a I guess it's like a sort of a gel formula with the fragrance in it and you can just paint it on your body and instead of spraying your yourself with perfume, it's just another way to apply perfume. Um

And people are super into it. They all say, I want to be a scent artist. So they pick it up and of course they're able to use two or three different painting different parts of their bed to layer it on or It's the creativity and it's being able to engage with fragrants and a whole with a whole different perspective. Mm-hmm.

Jo, I'm looking at a photograph of you kneeling um before Prince Philip, um when you received your CBE you are a commander of the British Empire, um, which is obviously an honorarium, but I but I mean Yeah. Not just a big deal for for anyone, but I mean given your

life story, right? Like you grew up in a council flat, like You know, you had a really difficult childhood. You guys had no money. I mean you were from a really working class background You built this super high end luxury brand called Joe Malone and then a second one

now called Joe Loves and Just Considering like where you came from and how you started, right? Do you just sometimes I don't know, d you and and Gary too, right? Like do you just sometimes sit back and just say, This is nuts. Like this is totally crazy. Every day.

Every day I get up and I think I wasn't meant to be here. I really tr uh I think as I when I was younger I was so impatient to get to the next step and as I've got older I realized actually

You've gotta take time and enjoy them. When something good happens Or something bad happens, just Take that time out. Don't be s such a hurry to get to the next step and the next thing because You miss the moment. You miss the

the the part that you've learned or the part that you've enjoyed or the part that you've worked for. I took my um son to university last year. Hm. So a little choke there as well. And

I never dreamed I would see that day. That that day when I was diagnosed with cancer, I never thought I would see him go to school, let alone go to university and And I cried a lot uh during those time. But I realise that life is You have

To treasure the moment. memories and moments are so pr they're they're Solomon's riches. They're the things that we should be really holding on to in our lives and Whether it be building a business or You know, transforming a a school or watching your son go to university or or whatever it is, or staying married for thirty six years, treasure it.

You know what, treasure those moments because they are what make us and That tenacity and that strength and that resilience is a valued part of of a human being. How How much um when when you think about

all of the things that got you to this point, right? And and I think it's fair to say you've had a pretty successful life. Do you attribute your success to how hard you worked and your your intelligence, or do you think more of it had to do with just being lucky? A little bit of everything, I think. I think a little bit of all of those things. I think hard work people who work hard are s are some of the most successful

I've ever met. Um I'm afraid it nothing happens without hard work and determination and that resilience. My intellect, my intelligence, um I started out with very little and I wouldn't consider myself a intellectual in any way, but I can hold my own in most conversations and in any conversation you can learn something from somebody else. Um, and I do believe in a higher power. I believe that I was

I was given a second chance at life to do something remarkable. And I'm determined to fulfill that and And look, I've been there's too many times in my life I've been at the right place at the right time and exactly the right moment for that to be coincidence. And I think as I've got to this part of my life now I'm a little bit more a little easier on myself, should I say, than I have been, I think all the way through. I'm not so

I'm not so hard yeah, I'm not so hard on myself, but I feel I've earned a lot of money. But it's time now to do something with it. We've learnt from it, we can enjoy it, but but what are we gonna do? Hello. Hello Joe, it's Sky Raz here. Hi Guy, how are you?

Oh man, what a question these days. Yeah. That's for sure. So as you briefly heard at the beginning of the episode, I spoke to Joe just a few days ago to find out how her business is doing given the crisis and how she's thinking about what it might look like Once we get through this moment. so much of what you do depends on human to human connections, right? The the the Tapas inspired fragrance bar and and just you

being with people and and talking through personal care. How are you starting to think about what that could look like without the face to face interaction. Um I miss that human to human touch. I because I am a very much a people person, but we have already looked into

having masks and visors. And we're not taking anything away, by the way, from the front line. We absolutely wouldn't be doing that. But when those doors open, I want my team and my consumer to be safe. Sure. And I won't open those doors until I'm absolutely sure that everyone will be safe, even if it means staying in lockdown for a little bit longer. That's what we'll do. We've had to rethink how we do Tapas from home, take away tappas.

So it will be something that you take with you versus Something that's done in store. There will be no more sort of touchy feely counters, I don't think. Not for a very long time, and maybe never again. it's gonna be a challenge for not just for the beauty industry, but I think every industry is gonna change now.

And this will be with us a long time, the effects. that it has had on the consumer. There's always gonna be that Am I safe? Yeah. Yeah. So People need to believe.

That Difficult times come. But they pass. And I I was I was talking the other day and I was I was remembering that I've already done lockdown, of course. I had to do lockdown in the middle of chemo because I was so poorly. I had to go out with masks on and gloves and

I wasn't able to see anyone for fear of infection. So I'm starting to remember all the things I thought during that lockdown and I never doubted for a second that it would be over, and I never doubted for a second I beat it. And I have the same mentality right now. Joe. You have dealt with like Insane adversity.

And here you are. Again. I mean do do you think in a way That those experiences help to prepare you to kind of At least handle this one as best you can. I don't think I'm any different than a lot of people that have gone through tough times. I mean A lot of people fight cancer, a lot of people

go through difficult times. I think that for me The fact the whole world is going through this. It's we've all got to get it through it together. It's kind of easier than if it was just if in a weird way than it if it was just your country. But um

I think it's okay to cry tears, you know. I think it's okay to feel scared. And Right at this moment, the thing that I would love to banish in this world for the next month. is judgmental people.

Judging one another is really not helpful at this moment in time. We need an attitude of unity in order to Beat this virus. That's Joe Malone. She's the founder of Joe Malone London and Joe Loves. By the way, one of Joe's many fragrances is called number 42.

Named after the flower shop on Elizabeth Street, where she worked alongside Justin DeBlanc. back in the early 1980s. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you want to support how I built this, please subscribe to our podcast and tell everyone you know about it. You can also write to us at hibt at npr.org. And if you want to send a tweet, it's at how I built this or at guy's.

Our show was produced this week by JC Howard with music composed by Ramteen Aramlui. Thanks also to Sarah Sarison, Julia Carney, Candace Lim, Niva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. how I built this. This

is NPR. I listen to Bullseye because Jesse always has really good questions. What did John Malkfitch wear when he was 20? I don't know how to describe it. Ballsai.

Interviews with creators you love and creators you need to know. From maximumfun.org and NPR.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 3 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.