Transcript

Rapid Response: Why Apple defies gravity and AI is God, with Guy Kawasaki, host of Remarkable People

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Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. I think Apple literally defies gravity. If you think that it's hard to figure out how an LLM works, it's even harder to figure out what sustains Apple. And you clip that nobody at Apple seems to use the product anymore. It sounded a little bit like you

You think Apple's lost its way. Well some of it is the I think the natural human tendency that when you leave an organization You believe that you were so essential to the operation of that organization that it could not possibly be as good without me as it was with me. So that that's some of it, right? That's Guy Kawasaki, the chief evangelist at Canva and former chief evangelist at Apple. Guy also hosts the podcast Remarkable People, part of the Masters of Scale Network. I wanted to talk to Guy to understand where Apple is headed right now from someone who lived and breathed the organization, and I wanted to understand why he says, quote, AI is God.

The lessons and perspectives Guy shares aren't always conventional, but they are plenty insightful. And whether he's talking about what it means to be remarkable in modern life or why you should assess business opportunities like catching a wave to surf, Guys rise sense of humor and fun spirit sparkle. So let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian. And this Із рапід респон.

I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Guy Kawasaki, the chief evangelist at Canva. Former chief evangelist at Apple, host of the terrific podcast, Remarkable People, and the author of many books. Most recently, Think Remarkable, Nine Paths to Transform Your Life and Make a Difference. Guy, thanks for joining us. Yeah, thank you. We saw each other recently at the Master Scale summit in San Francisco. You spoke about some

Key lessons to be a remarkable leader. And I I wanna try to double click on a couple of them. them there for for the audience here today, if that's all right. You can triple click, you can expand, you can collapse. So one of the ones that stuck with me was um your lesson about saying I don't know. Which is so counterintuitive for leaders. You know, they feel like it's their job to be decisive, especially with the world changing so fast. So Why why is that so important? How often can a leader get away with saying I don't know? Like if you say it too much, it's that. You know, does that become a bad thing?

Well, I mean it's not like I'm suggesting that you hire someone who ran a w a wrestling organization to run the department of education. I mean, you know, I'm I'm looking for relevant experience. I understand that y yeah, if you say that fifty percent of the time, you know, it might be a problem, but I think that you know, if you said that, one out of 10 or 15 or 20 times. That's not a problem. And in fact, I would make the case that saying I don't know. Builds your credibility instead of reduces it because when you say I don't know. It implies when you actually say you do know, you really know you know. And I think that is you know, that is very, very reassuring to people.

I mean it also sort of It's a it's an indication of curiosity, too, right? Like you're not going in so it it may make the environment more open. I mean uh you're hearing this from the different remarkable people you talk to it's gotta be useful for them too. If if Jane Goodall or Neil deGrasse Tyson said I don't know You pretty much knowed it. Wow, this might not be such an easy problem. I will tell you though, there is a slight nuance here, which is

If you are working for somebody. You should very seldom say, I don't know. Now I'm not suggesting that you lie and you say you do know. I want to make that perfectly clear. If you work for somebody Your answer should hardly ever be I don't know. It should be I will find out or I will figure it out. I guess you could say I don't know yet, but I will. And and I it's been my experience that. Pretty much every question you want answered.

has already been answered on the internet. Now Let's go back three years in time and you know, let's say you had a problem like How do I add an HP printer to a wireless network? There are a lot of people who don't know. Not even HP knows, if you ask me. But anyway. So like three years ago, if you said, I don't know how to add an HP printer to a wireless network, if you went to YouTube, you would find the answer, right? Now fast forward till today. If you go to Chat GPT and said, How do I add an HP printer to a wireless network? Chat GPT is gonna give you the answer. Not not just links, they're gonna give you the answer in about two seconds. And so there is no excuse anymore.

Well that that that leads me to another one of your points uh that you that you talked about about AI. You said Put AI first. And then you drop this line. AI is God and God is AI. So can you explain what you mean by that? Well,

Yeah. I mean, obviously I'm trying to be slightly controversial and interesting, but I I will use my favorite phrase. I don't know. How people who use AI

cannot be absolutely Gob smack impressed at how Intelligent AI is already. I mean, it gives v I think very sentient answers and it's it's kind of like blew away the Turing test. There used to be this test called the Turing test where a human interacted with a computer, and if the computer passed the test, it would mean that you couldn't tell. It's not a human answering you. Right. I think we have left that in the dust, and I would make the case. that the more interesting thing today is a reverse Turing test.

Where the The computer is testing the human to see how smart the human is as a vols to vice versa. So in my mind, AI may be the only solution to society's problems because clearly man himself. herself. Is not able to solve our problems, and we've had about two thousand years of proof of that. And I think that AI is omniscient. Maybe it's gonna be omnipotent and certainly it can be eternal. And that sounds like a definition of God to me. But but not necessarily

moral or spiritual. Right. I think you would be surprised. Yeah. Chat GPT can exhibit morality and empathy. Certainly it will show you empathy and morality higher than a lot. of politicians. A lot of politicians. Now what's magical to me is, you know, at some level I understand it's just statistics, it's just math.

It's predicting what the next syllable should be based on trillions of searches or you know, whatever the magic is. But I understand that at one level, but when I interact with Jet GBT. I I really think that it is Absolutely wise and moral and empathetic. However, it comes up with it, the outcome has that. feeling to you as as the consumer of that information. Right.

I mean Yes. Yeah, there's a lot of people who are very suspect and hesitant to embrace AI because quote We don't know how it really works. Right. Like we we think, oh, in order for us to trust a system, we gotta know exactly how it works. We have to understand the magic trick. Right. So may I point out to you something.

Yes. We don't know how the human brain works. If we were to only trust things that we already n completely know how they work, we would not trust anything. Listen, I think even the the technology that you and I are using in Doing this discussion is something that I I'm not sure I understand all the pieces of, although I guess there are some people who do.

I would say that If anybody that they know exactly how an LLM works, That person is bullsh. you and maybe bullshitting themselves. We don't really know. But then again, like I said, we don't really know how the human brain works and we're willing to trust human brain. So what's the problem? Mm.

Just have to accept that that's part of the reality. I think so. You know, I'm not uh a super skeptic about AI, but I feel like as I go down this road with you, it's it's like I I I what I hear a little bit is like, well, you can't trust people So the fact that you can't trust this doesn't matter so much. It's like we can't trust anything. Exactly. But that's a healthier attitude.

Mm. I mean, I think that's a better attitude. We cannot trust anything. Then We can trust humans, but not AI. I think that is a big mistake. You should always be skeptical.

Your role as a chief evangelist. There are a lot of people who are evangelizing about different things about AI right now. I Like what do you define the role of of a chief evangelist is? Is it the same as it has always been for you? The word evangelism.

uh is a Greek term and it means bringing the good news. So I brought the good news of Macintosh that it made people more creative and productive. I've brought the good news of Canva. Or it made people better communicators because it made them able to create beautiful graphics. I it's not like I'm a I'm the chief evangelist of open AI or chat GPT. It's just this is kind of like just an interest for me and it's just so obvious to me about the implications of AI. So I'm I'm not a chief evangelist of AI, but uh you know, I I doubt you would find many people who m more believe in the power of AI and that it could in fact save society.

One of the other lessons you shared at the Master Skills Summit was eat what you cook. Use your own products, basically. And and you gave examples about Apple, about how awkward it is to charge a Bluetooth mouse, you know, or like the the rigorole required to turn off and on notifications. And the equipped that nobody at Apple seems to use the product anymore. It sounded a little bit like you You think Apple's lost its way. Well some of it is the I think the natural human tendency that when you leave an organization You believe that you were so essential to the operation of that organization that it could not possibly be as good without me as it was with me. So that that's some of it, right?

Uh But I mean. The paradigm I'm talking about is eat what you cook, so like No pun intended, but you know, how does Tim Cook charge his Bluetooth mouse? Does he have a personal assistant to charge his mouse? Who adds the printer to Tim Cook's wireless network?

Ah man, I like to see him do it. I mean I'd like to see the the the CEO of HP add an HP printer to his home network. I think that would be I'd like to have a video of that. And and and so I I'm just saying that One of the great tests is that you actually eat what you cook. So go ahead. Add your own printer.

As you were talking about Apple Yeah. I like I've always been fascinated by Apple because it's the premium priced product in its category. And also the largest.

And that like that usually doesn't happen, right? Yeah. The premium is usually a niche. It's a luxury brand. It's not a mass brand. Apple's just turned that on its head and I I I'm curious whether Like From your perspective, how did that happen? Is it destined to not last? You know, it's like it's a magic trick of its own.

I would say that if you think that it's hard to figure out how an LLM works, it's even harder to figure out what sustains Apple. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, talk about magic. Yeah. I mean, you're you're absolutely right. And you know We go and buy twenty nine dollar dongles from Apple, I mean Yeah. And we're thanking them for it.

Challenges that If you look at Apple, I think Apple literally defies gravity. And I I could I don't wanna get into too many religious discussions, but I could make the case that Apple's continued success is also proof there is a God because you cannot be an Apple customer and be an atheist because nothing else can explain Apple's continued success.

than the existence of a benevolent God. Guy sees God in AI and in Apple. He really is a tech evangelist. At the same time, he doesn't necessarily believe Apple or AI are perfect. There's something so mature about that. We're not always so good as humans at holding opposing ideas in our heads simultaneously, but that can often open the door to deeper understanding and to better opportunity. So, Where is Apple going from here? What would Steve Jobs think about Elon Musk? And what does it take to be a remarkable person? We'll dig into that with Guy. After the break.

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Every week I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada.

It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Before the break, Guy Kawasaki, chief evangelist at Canva and host of the podcast Remarkable People, talked about why, as he sees it, AI is God and God is AI. Now he talks about how Steve Jobs would handle today's business environment, how surfing explains entrepreneurship, and what it takes to have a Let's jump back in.

When Tim Cook took over for Steve Jobs, right, it seemed like an impossible act to follow, right? But but actually Steve had set things up really for amazing growth. And the size of Apple today would totally astound him. In some ways, the impossible act to follow now is following Tim Cook. Right. Keep this Magic trick.

Going? I I've never even met Tim Cook, so I don't really know, but you know, if you just look at the financial results, I mean, there's nothing to argue, but I would say having said that At at some point, you know, what is to Macintosh, what Macintosh was to the apple two.

Hm. I I don't know the answer to that. Right. We haven't seen it yet, but it's gonna come. I I hope so. And you know. Probably it's gonna be some kind of quantum computer. I don't think it's the um The

That The provision thing. I don't think it's iOS, but Again, you know I I have to admit that

Some of this is just Like I think my human emotion that you know W when I was inside of Apple, we were doing everything right, and now I'm outside of Apple and I don't know what they're doing. But you know, what the hell do I know? I mean, uh you're talking to the guy who left Apple twice and turned Steve Jobs down once for a third job. So you know.

You know I part of the reason I ask you about this is I I like I didn't get to work with Steve Jobs the way you did. And one of the things I think about he's become so iconic, but there was like this cult of personality around Steve. But today This cult of personality around Musk, there's cult of personality around Trump, like Do you think Steve would have

thrived in today's business environment? Like what would he think about it? I mean It's it's hard to think. Yeah. Steve Jobs would not

continuously outstanding, right? I mean Listen, you know, he he was truly a unique unique individual and Don't get me wrong, it wasn't pleasant, it wasn't easy working for him, but he was truly amazing. And

I think he would still be amazing today. Um Uh and You know the the bizarre thing is that A few years ago, if you had said to me, Who's the closest thing to Steve Jobs that's alive?

I would have said Elon Musk. And one of the things We're tapping all the things that I cannot figure out. So the third thing I cannot figure out Is how can somebody make cars that are so good? And make solar batteries that are so good. and make satellite internet access that's so good.

Be so strange. Like Oh my God. I mean, now he's gonna run the federal government. Oh my god, this is gonna be interesting. You're a passionate surfer.

And you've talked about how in surfing timing is everything, waiting for the perfect moment to catch a wave. So So much of business is timing. And I'm curious about advice that you might have for listeners about how you look out at the horizon and catch the right wave at the right time. In a sea that's so unpredictable, in this environment that's so crazy. Or or is it less about choosing the right wave? And more about what you do with whatever wave you get. Okay, I can explain almost all of life with surfing analogy.

So you know. It I think much of surfing is you're waiting and you're trying to pick the right wave and then you have to pick the right time and the right direction and the right force and all this, right? Now in entrepreneurship, that's kinda the same thing, right? You're What's the right product? What's the right price point? What's the right features? What's the right entry? How do we know how do we bring it to market? Who's our customer? You know, there's infinite variables and you try to optimize each one. But I think at some point like in surfing.

You just got a frickin' launch. And once you launch Then you have to make your launch decision right. Now, obviously you can pivot and change, but you you know, it is about trying to make your decision right at that point. And I think one of the things that people don't understand is that When you hear about an example, when you hear about iOS, you hear about Macintosh, you hear about Tesla, you hear about Any of these remarkable accomplishments

You do not hear about the failures. And so y your data is missing. And and what we do in Silicon Valley is we throw a lot of shit up against the wall. And about one Out of a hundred stick. And we go up to the wall.

And we paint the bullseye. And then we go back and we say He hit the bullseye because I'm a visionary and I know how to predict and create the future. I picked it. I made Facebook successful. I made Canvas successful because I'm a visionary and I know what I'm doing. I would say logically you should ask that person, well, what about Terranos? What about web van? You know, what about those things?

And that person will say I told my dumbass partners not to invest in those companies. It wasn't me. So I guess I'm I'm just trying to tell you that Hindsight is Perfect.

I mean, you know, yes, it it was the right thing to introduce the Apple store. And Against all the negativity that said there's no way that a store can be a single manufacturer's representative. People wanna walk into comp USA, they wanna walk into Best Buy, and they wanna be able to pick from Apple and Dell and Lenovo. And all these IBM PCs, nobody wants to walk in and only see Apple crap. So there's no way Apple can succeed.

That's what they were saying, right? Now Apple stores have been a huge success. So now we can look back and say, Of course Apple stores are successful. Of course it would be a retail success. Well yeah. Um, Apple stores could have failed and we would be saying, yeah, people want selection. How stupid could you be to only offer one line of computers? So I I I guess I'm telling you that, you know, one of the cautions you should have is that You only hear about the success, you don't hear about the failure. So it's you gotta be very careful about correlation versus causation.

For the listeners who are here, like Should you be trying to leave a remarkable impact on the world as an individual? Like is that is that Something we should aspire to. Uh w with some caveats, okay, so

I I define remarkable as making the world a better place. Now I don't wanna give you the impression that you have to be Jane Goodall or Steve Jobs to be remarkable. You can be remarkable just Sixth grade classroom. Pop one or football team. You could be remarkable with a knitting club. You could be remarkable just tutoring one student. It's all about making the world a better place and You know, my podcast is called Remarkable People, Not Famous People and Not Rich People, for sure.

So I I I don't wanna give the impression you have to be a Steve Jobs and I I guess I believe like in infinite points of light that if If imagine if every American made one other American Be remarkable. We would have a lot of remarkable people and I think that's the test and I think as a profession, if I if you ask me, well, what's the profession with the most remarkable people?

I would tell you teaching. By far. So I I am cautiously optimistic, but even if you're cautiously optimistic. You have to be realistic about what's gonna happen. Guy, this was great. Thanks so much for doing it.

Listening to Guy is itself like surfing. The waves of ideas come in all sizes and shapes, and you feel the swell of impact from each of them. So which one would I try to ride to shore? I guess what sticks to me most is the need to be honest with ourselves about what we know and don't know, about failure and success, about how much luck, how much good timing goes into our achievements. We can't change the tides, but we can try to stay upbeat and optimistic wherever the water takes us. We'll be taking a break from Rapid Response on Friday for the Thanksgiving holiday, but we'll be back the first week in December with two new episodes. We hope you'll join us.

I'm Bob Safien. Thanks for listening. Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Assistant producer is Masha Makutonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli.

Theme music by Ryan Holiday. My head of podcast is Letal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponsshow.com.