Michael Kors: Michael Kors

I was writing payroll checks for my personal checking account. I went around to Fabric Resources and and begged them, please will you give me credit. I had no office. The first time I got a phone call. And the New York Times said oh We have a reporter who would love to come.

And look at the clothes. And I said, Well they can't come here. And they were like, Well what do you mean? And I said, Well, I'm literally you know, sewing in my bedroom. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements.

They built. I'm Guy Raz and on the show today, how a kid from Long Island turned his name into a global brand. with designer luxury apparel accessories under the label Michael Cors. If building a fashion brand is hard,

Turning that brand into a global one? Is really hard. Especially because names like Nike, Adidas, Louis Vuitton, and Gucci take up so much market share. If you look at the fifty biggest global fashion brands,

Only a handful are the names of actual living humans. You can probably guess some of them. Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hillfigure, Calvin Klein. And if you go to Bangladesh or Dakar or Chicago you will likely find some kid wearing a shirt that says Tommy Hill figure or Calvin Klein.

And you may wonder Why? Why is a black t shirt with the words Calvin Klein such a desirable article of clothing? Well the answer of course is branding. Calvin Klein, Tommy Hillfigure, and Ralph Loren figured out how to turn their brands into aspirational products.

and they didn't become global brands by accident. It happened methodically. Carefully. And strategically. And the same goes for the brand and designer behind today's episode, Michael Kors.

Michael Cores as a brand has been around a long time, since the early 1980s. But it's only in the past 15 or so years that Michael Cores has become one of the fifty biggest global fashion brands on Earth. Think about how many times you've seen someone wearing Michael Kors sunglasses or a Michael Kors t-shirt or clutching a Michael Kors purse.

Michael saw what Calvin Klein, Ralph Loren, and Tommy Hilfiger were able to do on a global scale, and he decided that he wanted to figure out how to do the same thing. Today, the brand is part of a multi-billion dollar company that Michael Kors himself is still very much a part of. The parent company, which Michael also founded, owns Jimmy Choo and Versace.

His brand makes everything from high-fashion gowns that cost$10,000 to t-shirts and underwear packs for less than$50. The company is publicly traded with a current market cap of over six billion dollars. But the path to getting there? Was both fraught.

And fortunate. At one point in the nineteen nineties, Michael Kores filed for bankruptcy. That forced him to rethink the way he did things. And it also gave him the opportunity to do work for other brands, notably

The French luxury fashion line Celine. And it was at Celine where Michael Kors realized that The way to build a really big fashion brand? was through accessories, things like handbags and watches and sunglasses. He also very wisely became a judge on the reality show Project Runway back in the early two thousands.

Which raised not only his profile But the brands as well. Michael Kors was not actually born Michael Kors. For the first five years of his life, He was Carl Anderson.

But When he was still a little boy growing up on Long Island in New York, His parents split up. and his mom remarried a man whose last name was Corps. So Carl Anderson took on a new last name and then

A brand new first name. as well. So I was gonna be coars. And I think the at the time there was sort of this Okay, well we want to use the initial M.

to commemorate my great grandfather. And my mom said, You know, what are you what name do you like? And I said, Michael, I want to be Michael. So I changed my I changed my trajectory. Mm. I I I know that your

Mother. Was a model. And so so she would do like catalogs and and things like that? Well, it's funny, my mother started modeling when she was seventeen. She did some advertising. She was sort of a runway model in local fashion shows.

And I think because she was tall, she said she was always the bride in a fashion show. So she wore a lot of bridal gowns. And then She was sort of modelling in showrooms. So she was on Seventh Avenue.

In the fashion district. And then by the time I was Four or five. Revlon, the cosmetic company They opened a place uh here in New York.

That was called the House of Revlon. And I think it was meant to be their sort of salon. And they needed sort of the in house hair models. And I think she wanted a more steady kind of gig so to speak. Yeah. So she became the in house uh house of Revlon hair model.

For a while. Where you became the sort of guinea pig for whatever they wanted to do to your hair. Well. And and did you grow up would you describe your sort of upbringing as middle class? I mean your mom was a model, but she wasn't like a it was a different era. This was before supermodels and you know Oh no, no. She was she was pounding the pavement. She was definitely not, you know, Linda Evangelista or Or or Bella Hadid. She was getting out of bed for less than ten thousand dollars a day.

I grew up uh at that point. What I would say would be uh Comfortably middle class. Middle class with some perks. And and you as a as a little boy. were also

a model like you you were in like advertisements for like Lucky Charms and I read, for example. Yeah. I think when I was around

Four I went to a birthday party for a friend in the neighborhood. And so a bunch of kids were all at a birthday party and the adults are there supervising. As it turned out, uh the

His uncle was there and his uncle produced television commercials. And he started talking to my mother and said, you know I think he'd be great on camera. So she asked me if I was into the idea. And I said sure.

And the first thing I did was uh in fact a lucky charms commercial. Mm-hmm. I did I did a lot of things that in fact got tested in different markets. You know, Snaple, for instance, of course now we think of Snaple as iced tea. Yeah. I did Snapple Apple Chips. Which that did not happen.

We all think of Sharman as uh I didn't know. Charmin paper towels. Which again never happens. So uh and I did it for about two years. I love doing it. Yeah. And

As a kid there's a photo of you as a kid and you were a a really handsome boy and uh still our handsome man, but as I was looking at you as a as a boy and you look like um you look like you look like Christopher Atkins from the the Blue Lagoon, you know, in the movie With book shields, right? Like the this curly blonde mop of hair, um, as a kid. And and you looked like that through your teens and and your teenage years were the seventies. I mean that was when you really kinda came into your own and I and I wonder as a kid already. Were you interested in fashion already as like

10, 11, 12 year old? I think that I was Bitten. By the bug.

Even earlier than that. I grew up around people who loved clothes. They loved clothing and they loved the whole idea of getting dressed and looking great. My grandmother, although she was an assistant principal. She

got dressed for work every day like she was going on a fashion shoot. Wow. My grandfather loved clothes my aunts all loved clothes. So that was part of the conversation. Plus I actually loved Growing up I loved to draw. So I was constantly in my room drawing and reading.

And I When I was really when I was growing up, it wasn't just fashion. I would sit and doodle uh houses, cars, all of that. But fashion was definitely by the time I was You know, ten or eleven.

Vogue. would arrive and it was just a monumental moment. So it it was definitely something that was always there. Michael, when you were you know, a teenager, right? And

Uh in in in sort of the world you inhabited. Were you I mean would you would you considered yourself a socially active kid, like did you have lots of friends?

Or did you get teased? I mean you were into fashion and and obviously you're a gay man. But Back in the seventies it was a different world. What do you what do you remember about Just being you at that time.

I the funny thing is Although I Here I was. Sitting and sketching.

Women's fashions, uh, totally obsessed also with theater and music. So you know, I'm definitely not on the little league team. I was obsessed with how I was dressed. Mm.

You know, I would have spent my last dime. on getting something that was probably more outlandish than anyone else was wearing. There were comments for sure, but at the same time I don't know. I think my family imbued me with this sense of confidence.

that you know what, you're not the same as everyone else. And that's actually gonna be a plus. Mm-hmm. And uh so I'm very lucky that I had that situation. You know, a lot of kids don't feel that in their home.

I think for a lot of kids You know, if they made a a proclamation that they wanted to be a fashion designer Their family might say, Well what is that? What does what does that mean? I didn't I didn't have that situation. Well g I'm curious'cause gr I mean, obviously your mom was

A model so she had And runway. things on Long Island and and locally. Did you have access to great clothing on Long Island, or would you go to the city? I mean obviously New York

wasn't New York today, but even in the seventies, it was still a fashion capital in the world. Well, I mean for me From the very, very, very young age. I I grew up, you know. Loving movies and The Wizard of Oz was

You know, when I was growing up that was just The ultimate magic and I really did think of Manhattan in New York City. As Oz. And so there was never any question that that I would be a New Yorker.

Yeah. So you know my heart would pound. By the time I was a teenager And I'd be saving up. To go to Bergdorf Goodman or To go to Sax Fifth Avenue and buy something.

And you know, and and it would just be the greatest thing in the world for me to Інод special piece, and I always wanted something that other people didn't have. I never really wanted to be just like everyone else. Yeah.

There's there's a a Famous photograph of Bianca Jagger on a horse and anyone who knows anything about Studio 54 in the 70s knows that photo because it's so iconic. Like she celebrated her birthday. on a white horse in Study Four and it just tells you everything you need to know about New York in the late seventies. Um, you were there. You were actually at Study four that night as a high school student, like just

out dancing, right? You know, once again, I go back to the idea that I really never wanted to be like everyone else. Instead of going to my senior high school prom That was in fact the night that I first went to studio fifty-four. With a friend.

We went into Manhattan. We went out to dinner. I didn't even actually think at the time That it was so special that we were able to get in. Or why did we get in? Yeah. You know, we were seventeen years old. Who knew who we were?

Um but we had we had youth, I guess, and energy on our side, and And maybe I had Christopher Atkins hair from Blue Lagoon, who knew? And I somehow knew instinctively that this was a remarkable Moment in time.

You know, the the magic of being in a room and seeing all the fashion people that you look up to and and worship. You know, Halston and And Liza Minelli and all of these people, and then Bianca Jagger comes in. on a horse and you say to yourself well

This is the place I want to be. It was That moment that You know, that can happen. That often. If it happened all the time it wouldn't be as special.

Yeah. So you knew already you wanted to go to fashion school and to become a fashion designer. And you did. You went to the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York. Mm-hmm. But you were only there for I should say only, but you you were there for about nine months before you dropped out. Tell me about Why? I mean did you get there and say, you know.

I don't I think I just want to start working. Like what what happened. Well, I think that I I thought that I would do the expected trajectory.

I'd go to school. I'd get a job when I graduated, hopefully working for a designer who I admired. I'd learn the sort of inner workings of how it all worked. I'd pick up pins, I'd fetch coffee. And while I was in school

I was working At a boutique. On fifth avenue and fifty seventh street called Lothar's. Mm. And I got a part time job there selling.

The clothes that they carried at the time which were sort of uh I don't know, you maybe call it the gap for the Uber Rich. It was jeans, T shirts and and down jackets all made in France, a lot of it tie dyed. And we had remarkable

celebrity clients from around the world. So you know, we had Cher and Diana Ross and Goldie Hahn. Rudolf Nuriev, Jackie Kennedy. I mean it was amazing. And I was eighteen years old. Wow, you were dressing these people, or you were knocked out by the whole thing. I mean, so school suddenly, you know, between that and Studio fifty four school was sort of like why isn't school moving quick enough?

I thought I was learning more. When I went to work. And I decided that you know what, maybe I'm gonna skip the few steps. And I left school. And I started working full time.

I love that. At Lothor's. And and also for myself, I always My favorite activity is is to watch people on the street. And the streets of New York in the late seventies.

And the eighties it it was like a fashion show. watching people and how they got dressed and how they how they express themselves with fashion. So you're working at Lothars and um Obviously learning about a retail store. And how to sell, um and how to h help customers. But also um on the side and at home

Just sketching your own designs, which you'd been doing since you were a teenager. Um what kind of things were you sketching? Like what what types of of apparel where you Will you try? I think uh if I describe it now, everyone will say, Well, I guess it's pretty similar. Everything was

Sort of Timeless. But not classic. luxurious but not ostentatious So a lot of it was it was all about versatility.

I always thought about comfort. I think I Think I learned about that also being in a retail store and Watching people trying things on. So that idea of sort of sporty glamour, that's definitely You know

Би май фокус. Since I designed it Lothar's and Since I started designing on my own. Веню thought of

you know, you're working at Lothar's, but in your mind did you think this is really just This kind of holding pattern. before I make my own mark. Like Or were you intimidated by the idea of trying to become a fashion designer? I mean You know, you knew the names of the famous people, you knew who they were.

Did you think I could do that too, or were you did you have some Self doubt. I d I you know, I don't want to sound that I was overly Confident, but Even though I didn't finish school, even though I didn't really know the mechanics

of of really how the fashion industry truly worked. I knew that I Wanted to do my own Thing. Have my own business, my own collection.

Um and I had a very defined point of view. Funny enough, at the time I was still at Lothar's and I had started designing The clothes that were in the store. I was also doing the visual merchandising, so I was doing the windows.

The staff reported to me, the selling reporting came in to me. So you know this was a lot for someone who was twenty years old. But I still for a minute thought maybe I should go to work for someone else. You know, I'll I'll learn something if I gotta work for someone else. And we had a lot of

Фашн інсидер з шоп і на стор. And there was a woman at the time who was a designer who I admired. Who she shopped in the store, her name was Adri. And A tree. I said to her, I said, You know, I think that there's a possibility that I could go to work

For Halston. And and I I love what he does and I said, you know, maybe that would be great experience, and she said to me, No. You know what you wanna do. I can see it in The clothes here at Lothar's.

And she's to just wait for the moment. And uh the opportunity will come. And you at that point should do your own thing. Right. Right.

So you were I mean, you're twenty, twenty one years old working at Lothhar's and also designing pieces that they sold like what jeans um No, it's button down? No, what happened at Lothar's was funny. As I said before, if it was really initially the sort of European French

Gap. Kind of uh for basics for the very rich. It was a very, very specific look and Uh as the seventies ended and tie die and hippie and all of that disappeared.

We suddenly we were left with the wrong product. And so I started designing really a full range of different clothes for the store which included You know, women's jackets that were more tailored, a more polished look. Um the eighties were starting to happen.

Where people were gonna be a little bit more dressed up. And I was just going by my My gut, my my instinct. And all that I mean'cause

A store like like that today would mostly sell designers and maybe they might have their own line, but It's super inefficient, right? A small boutique. Designing its own

line and then just making a few Pieces. Of you know, like maybe twenty or thirty pieces. Oh no, we didn't even make twenty or thirty. We'd make ten. Oh, sometimes I would make two. Wow.

But was that common for a store a a small boutique to have its own Line of clothing? In h in house designer? No, not at all. I mean you know, was I in the right place at the right time. The people who own the store They knew that I, you know, understood the customers and I was a designer.

So the next thing I knew I was set up with a little workshop In Manhattan. So I f first, you know, for the first time in my life I had People who were Making the patterns.

uh following my sketches And actually making the clothes. So I started buying fabric and buttons and zippers and I mean it was literally I kind of learned about being reactive. So I don't know if if my windows had

Colourful dresses. And it was, you know, April. And I had colorful dresses in the window and s suddenly It started raining cats and dogs every day and it was pouring rain. I said, Okay, well, you know what?

People are gonna need raincoats. So I would Literally run and buy some material and figure out What kind of cool raincoats was I gonna make and I would put those in the window.

If they were successful, we'd make more. So it's sort of a laboratory. Which was a you know incredible way to learn. Incredible and also just I mean again, like The

You know, in order for that store to survive, they would had have ha would have had to have sold those pieces for just a fortune. It was expensive. I will I will definitely acknowledge that what we were making was for a very rare fight. Clientele.

But I think people also Absolutely loved the fact that they knew they were not gonna see You know, if they bought that raincoat that I put in the window. They weren't gonna see, you know, everyone on the street wearing it. Hm.

I guess that there I mean you're in the store, obviously celebrities are going there. Your designs are in the window, like some of the clothes they're selling. are designed by this kid, Michael Kors, and probably some people asked and and more and more people started to find out about this. And I guess there was one person named Don Mellow who had a bob at Bergdorf Goodman, who noticed your designs. Um what w is that what happened? She noticed your designs and said, Hey, oh let's talk.

Well I was actually Doing the windows. I was physically in the window on fifty seventh street and fifth avenue. I think I had pins in my mouth and I was dressing a mannequin.

And This Very, very stylish woman walked into the store and She started talking to me and she said uh

These clothes that are in the window they don't look the same. As The tie dyed French Lothar's clothes that you know we had seen in the past. She said who designs these clothes? And I

Looked at her and I said, I do. And she said, But you're doing the windows. And I said, Well I do the windows and You know, I design the clothes and and I'm on the selling floor and And she She introduced herself and she said I'm my name is Don Mello.

And at the time I think she was the fashion director. At Bergdorf Goodman, which was directly across the street from us. And she said if you If you ever have a collection on on your own. Give me a call, I'd love to see it.

Well. And I literally went home that night and I started sketching. My first collection. It was

The impetus Even though I had no plan. I didn't really know How I was gonna do this, where I was gonna make it. I didn't think about any of that. I just said okay.

There's someone with interest. And uh The women who worked for me at Lothar's The seamstresses. And the pattern makers

Um I had them make This very small collection. And once it was put together. I was still working at Lothar's and I didn't know if this would really work out. Yeah.

By the way, were you worried that the Lothars people would be like, Hey You're our guy. What are you doing? Oh yeah, absolutely. I was This was all very uh clandestine.

But again, I didn't really know, you know, is this gonna actually happen. So I didn't want to leave my job. So I Kind of. Very quickly doing this.

Uh went across the street on fifty seventh street to Bergdorf Goodman. Nervous. Yes, nervous. Uh I had no idea about any of the logistics. How was I gonna produce any of this? Uh how do you cost it? How do you figure out your

profit margin, your markups. Even like my style numbers. I had no idea. So I thought Style number one, style number two, style number three. You know, and they were dresses, they were suits, they for women just in making women's fashion, right? It was only women's fashion, no accessories, no shoes, no

No bags. It was a a small collection of luxury. Women's Separates. You know, what we what we in the fashion industry say sports wear.

Lot of people think that means jogging clothes. But it it's really boils down to sort of this American Invention. Of clothes that are versatile. You know, separate pieces that you can wear different ways.

And uh that's what I brought to uh Burktorf Goodman back then in nineteen eighty one. Okay, so you bring it to This is eighty one. You don't have a business yet. You're not Michael Kors. I mean. Yeah.

Um and what what was the response? Um did you show it to Don Mello or did you show it to somebody else at Bergdorf? Well, I walked in and there was Don Mello waiting for me. And she was with a group of women who were the

sort of buying team and the decision makers at the store. I brought a friend with me who would model The clothes. 'Cause I was a firm believer that everything had to be seen on.

Mm. So I started the process and started showing it to them. And I think I was Literally at the third. Peace.

Do you remember what the piece was? Was it was it trousers, was it a dress? I did a lot of leather and suede. Back then and I think I had this long black suede. At the time we said gaucho pant. Uh, that had an over skirt and this big wide Obi belt, very dramatic.

Very expensive for nineteen eighty one. And everyone in the room s looked at me and said, Could you excuse us and could you leave the room for a minute? Mm. I thought, okay, this is over. So I left the room.

And uh about two minutes later. uh Don Mellows said we uh Really think the clothes are terrific. Um We think they're perfect for Bergdorf Goodman.

And wow, we We want to be the only store in New York. To carry the collection. For at least a year. And uh.

We'd like you to come back to us and tell us. You know, uh Is there anything you need from us? And I, of course. I mean I had no idea.

how I was gonna do any of this. I didn't know what to say, what to do. Yeah. So I called uh Family friend was a designer named John Anthony. And I called him and he said, Well Make your wish list.

And I said, What does that mean? And he said, Well, he said What do you need? to succeed with this. So I said well I'd love to have windows on Fifth Avenue. And he said, Well that should go on your list.

I said oh I'd love a an ad in the New York Times. And he said, Uh what else? And I said, Well I think I want to do a personal appearance or a trunk show. So I can Meet the clients. He said add that to the list.

And then I said, Well, I have no money. I said I don't know how I'm gonna Actually produce how am I financing this? How am I producing it? And he said you should talk to them and see if there's any way that you know they could help you. And prepay for

Some of their order. And I said, Okay. And the following day I Call the Don Mellow at Bergdorf Goodman and I Said here's what I you know

Need And she listened very carefully and she said We're good with all of that. If if you You know, stick with us, we'll stick with you.

Wow. And the next thing I knew I had People sewing in my apartment. On seventh Avenue and twenty third street. How many pieces, by the way, how many pieces of each garment did you have to make? Um I probably produced anywhere from

I would say a dozen. two, three dozen at the max. But you know, two dozen of most things. I had people sewing in my apartment. I was, you know, dragging bolts of fabric. In taxis.

And up the elevator and We were cutting the clothes, uh all of the fabric and all we were cutting everything. My apartment was so small. We used a friend's apartment upstair to cut things out and And and somehow then I think

I don't even really understand how people Delivered clothes to a store. I d I didn't know. That you know there was UPS. You know, I wanted to hand deliver all of the clothes. I was afraid they'd wrinkle and crease.

So I I delivered them in the back seat of My aunt's car. when we come back in just a moment. How Michael moves out of his apartment. into stores across the country.

But about 10 years into the business? gets into a bad partnership that leads to bankruptcy. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This.

So It's 1981, and Michael has just gotten a commitment from Bergdorf Goodman to carry his first collection of clothing. And at the time, he's still making that entire collection. In his apartment. Yep, every piece.

And then I packed it all myself. I delivered it all myself. The windows. I knew which day they were gonna go in and I was standing on Fifth Avenue at two o'clock in the morning, driving everyone crazy.

And I think they made a Huge exception at the time and they let me come in and go into the windows and sort of Fidget and fuss with the mannequins. And uh and then the New York Times. Advertisement came out.

I had no office. The first time I got a phone call And the New York Times said oh We have a reporter who would love to come. And look at the clothes.

And I said, Well they can't come here. And they were like, Well what do you mean? And I said, Well I'm Literally. You know, sewing in my bedroom. Um but in fact

The New York Times did come and they sat in my bedroom and looked at the collection. Um and Then the first article that was written about me I was the Fall fashion pick.

In New York magazine. And at the time the editor was Anna Winter. And she called me in I want to see the clothes, I've heard wonderful things.

And she said, Where's your office? And I said, I don't have one. And I took the subway to the New York magazine offices. And I hung the collection on her coat stand. And uh you know, and so there was it was definitely an unorthodox way to start. I mean I was

I was writing payroll checks for my personal checking account. I mean, the seamstresses and stuff. Yes. I mean it was It was really crazy. I went around to fabric resources and and begged them, please will you give me credit? You've known me You know, since I'm eighteen years old. You know, it was definitely not a a traditional way to approach setting up a business.

Yeah, d I mean, did you know how to do basic accounting, for example? Not really. I mean yeah, I mean not really. I mean I I figured out how to figure out my profit margin and how I should price things and So I did do that, but Right. It became very apparent very quickly that there was no way I was gonna do this on my own.

Yeah. I mean here you were and I'm I'm assuming you thought of yourself as a an up and coming designer. You were a young designer. This was you were a creative and But At the same time, the Bergdorf ordered.

was financing the founding of what would become your business. And we probably didn't think of it that way. You probably didn't think, Okay, I'm starting a business. I'm founding a business, but you were You had to do Some of the things that you have to do to start a business. And I guess there was a guy Name Jack Orcholi, am I pronouncing that correctly? Orcholi. Orchouli that you you brought in to help you Kind of.

build this business. Who who is Jack and Yeah. So I started down the traditional route. I talk to a lot of Different.

People who were already on seventh Avenue producing clothes. And what I immediately saw with them was that they had a lot of rules. About how they thought things should be done.

And I said, you know what, I I think I'm gonna go about this a different way and look for someone uh to be a partner in business. Who isn't necessarily in the fashion business. And uh I met someone who Worked at Bergdorf Goodman at the time. And she said, My husband is in the real estate business, he is not in the fashion business.

But he is definitely intrigued by it. And we met. And in we jumped. Um I was what was I twenty two?

I was twenty two. And how old is Jack? Oh. He was probably all of thirty three. Mm-hmm. So we were young and and curious and energetic and

And uh we set up You know, my first office, but my first office was A loft uh that I lived in initially in the back But it was big step up from, you know.

Showing the New York Times my collection in my bedroom, at least my bedroom now is in the back. And Step by step, it was a a slow progression. And I think I waited until nineteen eighty-four.

to have my first fashion show. Because I really I knew that I had a Sort of line my ducks up. And make sure that

You know, that I knew that I was Being able to deliver the goods, so to speak, and all these steps the collection. Started getting a little bit bigger and broader. We were no longer, you know, strictly dealing with New York City. I was suddenly on the road a lot. Yeah, because after a year.

You didn't you weren't only committed to Bergdorf, you could sell anything. Suddenly I was in Minneapolis and I was in Nashville and I was in New Orleans and I was in Los Angeles and I was you know, I was traveling and at specific stores at the big like Sacks Sacks and Neon Marcus Bloomingdale's Sax Fifth Avenue and Marcus. А полсо А лотов майнішл бизнес возвіли бил. Um in specialty stores where they really had these

remarkable relationships with their clientel. So you were almost, you know, if you went back Леце талас твай са. It was kind of seeing, you know, clients who became like friends. Yeah. And you've started to really learn how

How these women lived. Where did they go on vacation? What were the restaurants like in their city? Did they work or did they not work? was crash course in uh consumer knowledge.

And what made your line appealing, I guess, was that It was elegant but practical. Like it was everyday clothing. I mean obviously you do You make

gowns and evening wear, but but m mainly what you were making then was like everyday clothing that was also elegant. That is a very sharp and clear assessment. I think women found The clothes to be

Easy to wear. Versatile. Long lasting. glamorous, but But accessible.

Um that was and then also we we We seem to have started even back then in the eighties. With this very, very wide broad range of Different kinds of customers.

Different ages, different sizes. I would go to do a personal appearance. And we could have three generations in one family. We'd have the granddaughter. We'd have the daughter and we'd have the grandmother.

All wearing it. They'd all wear it and they'd all find their own way to wear it. Yeah, so and I think that's the key, right? That cross generational brand. Like if you can hit that If you can get those three generations wearing Your line. Like

That's kinda like the holy grail, I guess, of fashion. Definitely. It's it's also Years later, of course. When I was doing television, I was doing project runway. I would sometimes listen to Some of the designers on Project Runway.

And they'd say, Well, you know, I don't really design for people that size. Or I don't design for women that old. I was always Perplexed listening to them. thinking, Well wait a minute, if you're good at what you do

You're a problem solver. You're solving the puzzle. So you should be able to Design in such a way. that you get your message across, but at the same time You have that

possibility To be democratic, whether that's Just in size or age or Or even how a woman or a man puts themselves together.

Yeah, because Not everyone wears the same thing the same way. They want to be able to put their own spin on it. Yeah. You know, in those first few years you're selling First to Bergdorf, and then you're going around and selling the boutique around the country, small boutique and even your line is even in

Sacks and Bloomingdales and other Big retailers. Just to get a perspective, did that mean that you guys were just making tons and tons of money or or not? I mean,'cause I think the assumption would be oh Michael Kors, he's he's everywhere. But but actually the reality's a little bit different, right? Very different. You know, it is

Mom and pop. Uh You know, roll up the sleeves. The hands get dirty, you're doing everything yourself. And yes, each point

As the business grows. You can take on A new employee. Suddenly you have a public relations person. Um suddenly

When stores or magazines or the pres come to vizi your office. You can offer them something to eat, a cup of coffee. But you're definitely not rolling in the dough. You need things to build, you need to learn, you need to See things uh kind of

Grow. At a rate that it's right it's the right thing at the right time. Right. you mentioned that this was very much a small business and it was still about travelling around the country to boutiques and meanwhile

Your partner, um, Jack is kind of I guess manning the the shop and running the the books and stuff and you are the face of this brand. But I imagine to really start to scale it. There are things you have to do in the fashion and one of the things

Inevitably, and you did this in nineteen ninety was to launch a a lower priced line. Two and and it was called Cors by Michael Kors and you started to work with a um a licensee, I guess an an Italian company. Um

First of all, before we get into Is that true? I mean, in order to really grow the business You kind of Have to create a lower price line. Maybe have to is not the right word, but you don't know if it's inevitable. I don't know if it's necessarily that you have to create a lower price line.

But you have to have something to sell. That Can have A broader appeal. Now that doesn't take anything away from someone who is very comfortable and very happy.

Keeping their business. Small Tight. You know, we were we were saying before, you know, I might not have played little league as a kid. But I am definitely a competitive player.

Yeah. And so I think if you want to scale to the next level, doesn't mean that you have to have a lower price line, but you have to have something That can have a broader audience. But for me at the time Back in nineteen ninety.

I think I was at Sax Fifth Avenue at the time. In New York. And it was the day that The store went on sale, so to speak. And I happened to be there and watch this.

And I saw Women who were kind of at the sail racks loving My designs And I realized that this was a whole different audience of people.

Who I was not speaking to. Because a a a garment might cost at that time Two two hundred fifty dollars. And they And it was on sale for a hundred. Exactly. Exactly.

And presumably, I mean y you kind of alluded to this, some designers are have an aversion to this because there inevitably there are compromises that come with that. You've got to manufacture it more efficiently. It's gotta be cheaper to make. You cannot sell But you can't sell something for it it's gotta be more like Seventy five to a hundred dollars rather than four to four hundred to a five thousand dollars, right. And so it inevitably, right, it means that there are different approaches to it.

Um Did you have any Fears about that? Did you have'cause imagine, you know Every designer has to think, like, you know, if my stuff is gonna be at T J Max eventually Is it gonna devalue the

The brand in the In the minds of consumers. I think that we what what what how I approach it is this Everyone has a different budget. So

What's inexpensive to one person is expensive to another. You know, so I think what what how I approach it is Із кваліті. At that price. Yeah.

That's that's to me the trick. And then I feel that whoever is buying it They're getting the best thing that they could buy and and That works for their life. So whether it's

Seventy-nine dollars? Seven hundred and ninety dollars or seven thousand and nine hundred dollars. Is Their integrity to the way it's designed, is it the best quality you could find at that price? And then it's the right piece.

It's just the right thing at the right price. Yeah. Alright, so you struck a deal with um with a a a licensee uh in in Italy. a company to

Make this course. Line. And that Ultimately proved. To be

Um I guess I don't know. Didn't work out. Right. Disastrous what happened. Well, no, at first it was uh tremendously successful.

So here's the first time in my career. That we launched something and it just shot out of the cannon. Very, very quickly. And It was an immediate success story.

And these are what were they making, T shirts that said Michael Corson? No, we made a full no, no, no. It was a full collection again of women's Sportswear? Right. Uh jackets, trousers, shirts, dresses, everything. Right. So th and this is what's known as I guess like a bridge line in in the fashion world like in those days they would say bridge, uh which was a bridge between more affordable and designer prices It's turned into

contemporary affordable designer. Whatever it is, to me it was just Uh more accessible product. And presumably this core's line

is probably really fueling your business, right? This I guess. very quickly the biggest driver of revenue. Absolutely. Unfortunately

Uh What happened The company That we licensed to We were really their first great success.

With licensing uh designer name. And I think they were so successful with us. that they suddenly said well we this is easy. We can do this

You know, with other people. And they went out and they started gathering other designs that they say, Oh, well if we did this with Michael Kors, we could do it with you, we'll do it with you. And they overextended themselves And it turned into this sort of Perfect storm

Where we were Chugging along. with the royalty checks. And expanding and as I said really, you know, building up our infrastructure.

Yeah. And the next thing you know You've basically started relying on someone else. And uh they ran into complications with some of the other lines and collections that they were licensing.

And the next thing you know, they went bankrupt. Wow. Owing us. Considerable amount. of royalty money.

And we of course had been spending All along. w we knew the money was coming in, the stream was coming in. And we didn't think the stream would ever stop. Yeah. And then the stream stopped.

Which is like Yeah, I mean you were it sounds like you know, sixty, seventy, maybe eighty percent of your money was coming from this one source, which is always dangerous for any business. And also, let's be honest, spending the money before before it comes in.

It's the combination of being too dependent on one thing, not diversified enough. And uh quite honestly putting Putting all your eggs, so to speak, in one basket. So it uh

At the time. I I I think I I thought to myself. First off

How could this happen? If I don't Have my own business. Who am I? We have to figure this out and sort our way through this.

And I have to say. Uh first There was never any question we weren't gonna close, but we were gonna have to, you know, cut expenses dramatically. And and you had to declare bankruptcy. We d we went into chapter eleven bankruptcy. But the right away uh we made the decision

We're not gonna stop. Producing Our collection, We're gonna continue to ship it to the stores and we're gonna continue doing business. Maybe we won't be able to have an advertising campaign. Maybe we have to cut staff.

maybe we have to, you know, no longer have an extravagant fashion show. We're gonna do what we have to do. W when that was happening, yeah thirty two And you're in bankruptcy. Were you d was a part of you feeling like

I failed. Like I I'm not gonna I might not recover from this. Initially I thought Even though I understood the circumstances, it's hard not to question yourself and

What did I do wrong? What did I you know, what mistake did I make? Um but then I saw that Uh you know, I I don't think my confidence flagged ultimately. once I once I brush myself off And that that definitely between the fact of of course cutting expenses and

pushing up the sleeves and and and and getting dirty and doing everything yourself. Um a few years later we were out of chapter eleven. And then we we we got back onto solid ground. And we come back in just a moment. Michael comes out of bankruptcy with a new gig. And some new ideas about the beauty.

and the business value. Stay with us, you're listening to how I built this. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's nineteen ninety seven and Michael Cores, the brand, is recovering from bankruptcy.

But thanks to a new partnership with a Japanese company called Onward Kashiyama, it's able to keep making its line of moderately priced clothing. Meanwhile, Michael, as he's managing all of that Takes on a new gig. You were hired.

by Celine. the the the French fashion house to be there. The in house designer. Um And obviously a big deal. You're an American designer. This is a French fashion house owned by the

Multinational LVMH. Um W how did that work? I mean you had Michael Cors is your business. And then you also became an employee of Celine. Well

Fashion sometimes is is like it's really an athletic endeavor and you know, you're getting to the next step. Can I lift more weights? What c what can I handle? And uh The last thing that had ever crossed my mind would would have been That I was gonna design uh collection in Paris and have a fashion show in Paris and

It was it was really nothing I ever thought of. But I thought you know what? I owe it to myself to try this. It's definitely uh

A lot of juggling. Also, I was for the first time. My eyes opened at Celine. To the power of Accessories.

Hm. um handbags and footwear Um, which was the bulk of their business. Yeah. It taught me really the power of accessories. How democratic.

something can be if it's well designed, if it's uh, you know, the right bag, the right shoe. The right pair of glasses. And that was the whole new sort of category for me. I I wonder, Michael, and this might be sort of a a you know, just a d dumb question from somebody who's not an insider in the fashion industry

How did you know like what pieces to design for for you know, Celine and for yourself. Like I'm thinking to myself, you know Wow, I just you know, I've designed something and I'm blown away by it and I'd want to keep it with my name on it. You know what I mean? Like I wouldn't want to give that to Celine, but of course you also work with them. So how do you

How did you kind of figure out What What goes where? What goes where is a good question. Well, of course, you know, to a certain degree you also start competing with yourself.

Right. Yeah. You are competing with yourself. The thing that that really helped me You know, when you start designing Inevitably you actually have too many ideas.

And often you might fall in love with an idea, but you think you know what? It doesn't really fit. I'm gonna have to get rid of it. Yeah. So you edit it out. So suddenly I had

more opportunity uh and more places that I could actually Use an idea or use a design. But also. Paris by nature is An indulgent city.

It's a more indulgent approach to getting dressed. New York is a a much more practical pragmatic kind of space. So I I think that Michael Kors

A more quiet approach to luxury. And I think that Celine tended to be a more extravagant approach to luxury. So that was kind of

How we Split the two. Yeah. They obviously LVMH d they deepened their relationship with you. They they bought a stake in Michael Kors, I think in nineteen ninety nine. Yes. Um about about a third of it.

And so that was an infusion of capital into Michael Cors, and by that time I have to imagine Michael Cors is you know, it's not what it is today, but even in in nineteen ninety nine. Were you on a better financial Absolutely. We had an investment from Award Kashiyama.

Um and we had the investment in ninety-nine from LVMH. definitely put us on much more stable ground. To grow the business and To launch Michael Core's accessories. In the early I think it was two thousand actually.

This was like the perfumes and Fragrance. It was really my first foray into Products that were not clothing based. So I launched my first fragrant.

We signed a license for shoes, sunгласиes. We broadened our product mix for sure. H how did it change how you operated the Michael Kors business because you kind of been burned earlier with licensing, not with licensing, but with like how much you spent and becoming super dependent on these licensing revenue streams.

When you went back to it, you know, you've got now fragrants and shoes and other things in the early two thousands. Were you guys more careful about About about how you operate the business. Well I th yeah.

I think we definitely learned uh Diversity was important. So you weren't Relying strictly on one product. Yeah.

You had a broader range of products. And you also We watching your spending. Not that you were not spending the capex that you might need to spend to Get to the next level.

But you were not over spending. because we had we had been burnt, but I think it was really the diversification. That we went from having all of the money from a license initially before chapter eleven, which was, you know, from one

Revenue stream. To suddenly having Licensing money coming in from shoes, coming in from glasses, coming in from fragrants. We were selling bags. We were doing our own men's wear.

So there was more diversification to the business, which is healthier. So This kinda leads to the next really big turning point in your business. Which is two thousand three.

Two new investors um acquired about eighty five percent. of Michael Kors, Silas Chow and Lawrence Stroll. And from what I gather, you you sought them out. You wanted these investors to come in buy out the shared by L VMH and and the Japanese um company and even your business partner. And I imagine you did this because you thought that with their

ownership and their partnership you could scale the business even more? Was that the thinking? Absolutely. And I felt that I was at the time We were doing well, but we were treading water.

Um and I really wanted to see the business Go to the next level. Yeah. Silas Chow. And Lauren Stroll was became

uh involved with Tommy Hilferger's business. And they really took Tommy Hilferger. to a very, very you know, different level than when Tommy had started. And I felt that I had enough experience.

And enough knowledge at that point to to be able to see it. Taken to the next level. Yeah, I'm a wonder you mentioned earlier you weren't on the little league team, but you were also competitive. You were a competitor And you're looking around, and I wonder if you were looking around and seeing the Tommy Hill figures and the Calvin Kleins and the Ralph Lawrence, you know, as these international brands and thinking

I I should Be there too. Absolutely. Ralph.

Lauren and Tommy Hilferger And Calvin Klein and Brands like that suddenly they were not strictly American brands. These were global brands. And I definitely thought by that point

I had had my experience working with Celine. And it was really Time to find the situation that would allow me to take that's you know that step to scale it up. There was a quote from Lawrence Straw at the time and he was asked, you know, why are you making this investment? And he said, You know, the the reasons why why Michael's business isn't bigger today

is that it hasn't had a big insurgents of cash. or aggressive management behind it and we intend to bring both. So they were gonna bring cash and aggressive management. And by the way, to say they spent a hundred million dollars on about eighty five percent of the brand, which would prove to be an incredible investment. I mean they would make a lot of money off that investment.

But now you are I mean, you are still a minority shareholder in your company, but it's you know, you've got bosses and and there are expectations and And How did that change? How you operated that did that

I mean, did that deliberate you to do or did that put more pressure on you to deliver? Well, I mean, once again If you do the same thing every day. With no variants. Maybe some people are very comfortable with that.

I think I was ready and curious to try new things. Um and with people who are Experienced and curious the same as myself. Now, are there bumps in the road? Absolutely. You know, I I remember

I remember the first uh I think was my first spring season. with Michael Michael Cores And the women's uh apparel

That season. I had always done for Michael Cores we made A lot of sweaters. So I had a lot of sweaters on the collection. And all these sweaters get shipped all across.

America to department stores. And they look great. Uh I th I think they look great. And they end up not selling very well and I couldn't understand why don't they sell well. And then someone said to me, Well They're not machine washable.

And I said. What do you mean? As you know, sweaters most sweaters are not machine washable. What's the big deal? And everyone said, Well this customer prefers That most of what she buys is machine washable. And I I I just I was kind of like, Really?

Like no one told me. So you live and you learn. But Silas Chow and Lawrence Stroll and myself We're all very experienced people.

Who And want you know, what's next. Michael, I'm curious about how you cultivate A sense of

Luxury. And also uh you know an affordable price. So for example You can buy a Michael Kors. T shirt.

Sure. Sixty bucks. And you can also by uh, you know, a a beautiful halter jacket. w women's halter jacket for eighteen hundred dollars, right? But

Was there a conscious decision with these new partners like, okay We need like Soccer fans in England wearing coarse shirts. and and we also need to appeal to you know, a high fashion customer who's willing to pay eighteen hundred dollars. But how do we

Cultivate that sense of um luxury, you know, in in less expensive streetwear. Was there Was there is there a playbook to on how to do that? I think the big playbook is never talk down to the customer.

So whether it's a T shirt or an evening gown. It's thoughtfully and intelligently designed. And we also have to remember in a in a world that is casual The richest person in the world.

with eighteen hundred dollar jackets. No. А вice верса Someone who has a very casual life and doesn't have that kind of Money.

They do have the pieces that they buy that are their splurge piece. So You know, you might on a daily basis say, You know what, I live in leggings or jeans. But I'm gonna sort of stretch and buy

The handbag and the watch that make my jeans and leggings feel special. Yeah. Meantime. The business is growing.

And eventually you you're opening stores all around the world and the United States. Michael Kors stores. One of the things that that's interesting to me is that Over time, like within a uh sort of a decade of or less, you know, a few years of of your partners coming in and joining you as investors. The biggest part of your business.

started to become accessories. It wasn't clothing, it wasn't apparel, it was accessories, and I And y you you alluded to this, but I have to imagine that that came from your time at Celine as well, having seen How big a part of their business.

handbags and and shoes were That must have had an influence on your thinking. Absolutely. I think Even when I was a teenager, if I sat and doodled in class in high school when I

should have been paying attention to the teacher. I would sit and doodle shoes and glasses. This was just If you looked at my notebooks, Or I would sit and doodle.

The MK logo that we use. is something that I started doodling. Back when I was fiftin. So I always loved accessories. But I didn't realize that accessories were the ultimate democratic

items in fashion until I spent Six and a half years at Celine. that you know, it didn't matter what the weather was. The same handbag. worked in Stockholm and Rio de Janeiro.

Yeah. Watch. was great in Jakarta and Chicago. Um, you could be Seventeen years old or seventy five years old.

That's kind of the magic. of a great piece of jewelry a watch Glasses. Shoes, belt. Bag

Also, because I am practical I particularly I love Bags. Биз айв the fact that we All need the functionality of

Іно, вверми порстав. So it's this practical Necessity. that also Makes us

feel a certain way when we use that bag. I've always wondered is it Are the margins better on things like handbags and shoes and accessories than they than they would be on apparel? Well, the thing we have to remember about apparel versus A handbag.

Handbags don't have a size. Right. In clothing invariably And we all know when we go shopping If you wear a size thirty four d

And somehow you go to the store and they've got a hundred pairs of jeans. And where is the thirty four? Why is it gone? So you're upset. Where is the handbag If you fall in love and they have it, it's your size. So Just from a

business vantage point it it is more expensive to Yeah. Have that big size range versus being able to focus things. like you can with handbags or or glasses or fragrants. Yeah, and handbags are walking advertisement. I mean people are where are walking with handbags say Celine on them or or that have a logo or or Michael Cores or

Kate Spade or whatever it might be. I mean and then other people see that. Absolutely. The company went public in two thousand eleven, um and and it's still, of course, public, no longer called the Mich Michael Core is now called Capri Holdings, um, because you're Under that name.

And so You know. for the years that you were actively, you know part of um sort of the the business and and you still are part of it. But but

But sort of in there in in in two thousand eleven and so on. Um You know, you're now a public company with the volatility of the stock market. I mean at one point You know the the the company was valued at fi

fifteen billion dollars. The market cap was fifteen billion, and then it goes down to eight, and then ten, and then seven, and Um did that. Did that kind of volatility ever um Did you ever feel stress or pressure from now

having a publicly traded company where you where you're accountable to shareholders? For me um as uh Creative person with a business head. I'm never actually As a designer, you're never in the time you're in.

You're always working so far ahead of time. You're always thinking about what's next. Um, fashion is not You know Able to do it. to turn things around so quickly.

You know, the way that it than it was when I was at Lothar's. Where if it rained on Tuesday I could make raincoats for Thursday. You know, there'll be times I have to admit that I'll be in the middle of a meeting and I'm looking at

at different categories of product. And I will be loving or hating something, and then I forget what season I'm looking at. Right. And I'll say, Well wait a minute. This is for when? Yeah. Um but fashion is always about thinking thinking ahead. Yeah.

Yeah. You know from the time you were Lothar's to Michael Cors and br really for probably the first fifteen, twenty years of your career. You were designing everything, but inevitably it's like being a chef, you know, when you you got a a Michelin three star restaurant and then you

You cannot oversee every design. It is impossible. Today You know, between uh um you know All the collections of Michael Cores. There's no way you can design everything. And so how do you how did you get to a point where you could let go and And

seed some of that control because inevitably there are gonna be things that are designed that you just simply you don't have the capacity to oversee everything. that you might not like. Okay. Well I always say It's well first off I Yeah.

I'm not sitting and sketching every piece myself. Am I Touching every piece myself? I would say ninety five percent of it, yes. Um I see it.

So it's it's which I guess would be the same as a chef. Uh the last thing I want to do is put a Caesar salad on the menu. You know, everyone has a Caesar salad. Why do I have to have a Caesar salad? Well, can you make it the best Caesar salad? And can you put your own little spin on it to make it, you know, your take on the Caesar salad.

So maybe that's similar to what I do. Uh and I love the sort of conversation. With creative people. Um and sometimes I'll say I don't really you know, I don't understand that. Explain to me why you love it.

You know, it's similar to what people have seen me do on Project Runway. Yeah. Not even people with best instincts are not right a hundred percent of the time, and I wonder, can you think of an example of a of a design that you just didn't really love, but you agreed.

That it could be made and produced and and it turned out to be a hit. Well I live in New York. So, you know, and I wear a lot of black.

Right. And New Yorkers wear a lot, a lot of black. So sometimes, you know, I'll look at a colorful handbag. And I'll say well I think that's gonna look You know, great in the photograph.

But who who really Carries. A colorful handbag, I don't understand. That I always say, Well, you know, it's great and we'll take a photograph of it, but I know it's it's not gonna Бісесфо.

And then I look at what's sold. And I see that, you know. A pale blush pink handbag is at the top of our list. Mm. And then I have to

Sort of Myself and remind my self. No, we're not only Talking to people who live in New York City. We're not only talking to people who live in London.

Or Chicago or Paris. These are all cold weather cities in the winter. You know, if you live In Tampa, Florida, year round. You are not experiencing the winter.

That someone in London or Chicago or Paris experiences. So you see things from a different perspective. So once again I think it's It's always to remember

How to be empathetic. So I I've definitely had that surprise many, many times. Michael, I know that you are you're the chief creative officer. of the company. And so obviously you touch every design as as you mentioned. And and the the business today is Massive. I mean its market cap is over eight billion dollars. You own Versace

Jimmy Chou, um, and so obviously a hugely diverse At this point Are you I mean Do you ever get anxiety about I mean you went through a bankruptcy.

You know, in the nineties. And when you're much smaller. But now like are you at a point where you're just so big that you are Not worried. that you you you feel like this brand is You know.

in enduring and here to stay and and nothing can kind of You know, hurt it or damage it or topple it. Well, I think that, you know, uh after forty What are we? Oh my gosh. Forty two years. Forty two? Yeah, forty two years.

Forty two years uh We are um Definitely firmly Cemented. uh as a brand into

So many people's lives and in their closets. And You know, I've been with friends where I don't know. We could be arriving somewhere and a car is waiting and they Say hello to a friend thinking that

The friend is Michael Kors or I've been at the airport with TSA. I had A TSA officer asked me what it was like to work for Michael Kors. Mm-hmm. And I said, What do you mean? And

She said. How long have you been there? And I said, My whole life. And she said, Oh, and then she looked again and she said Oh.

You you are Michael Kors. Like there's a person. And I said yes. So at a certain point you get firmly cemented as a brand, but there's definitely a person here. And a designer here and then

individual who's still You know. Still wrapped up in the thick of it and and and I enjoy doing it. Yeah. When you think about your career and we've talked about it now for several hours

And you know, where you came from and and you always knew that you wanted to do this and you were competitive, you did have a drive and and you were ambitious. And you still are. How how much of of what happened to you and where you are today do you do you attribute to How hard you worked and how much do you think has to do with luck?

I'm I'm not a believer in Luck in the traditional sense of the word. I believe in hard work, I believe in experience. I believe in curiosity. But my version of luck

is How do you uh make sure that you leave yourself open to possibility? I've always been curious about an e never limited myself About what could be next.

Yeah. Living school when I was ntin years old. And saying let me start working, starting my own business with no experience. running and and figuring out how to go to Italy and sign this license.

Chapter eleven. And deal with that and move forward. I've always really been willing to take an educated and calculated leap into what's next. It's Michael Korus, founder and chief creative officer.

Michael Kors. Thank you. My voice has definitely gotten huskier and huskier. I think I sound like a male version of Brenda Viccaro. Sound great. Or or um what's his name? Atkins from Blue Lagoon. Christopher? Christopher. Christopher.

I've known Brooke Shields for forever and a day. And one year I took her to the Met Ball. And I said to her, I said, should I wear a long curly wig and we can read we do Blue Lagoon. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please be sure to follow the show however you're listening. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, just click the plus. Follow sign at the top, and on Spotify, just click the plus sign to follow the show and never miss a new episode. If you want to contact the team, our email address is hibt at id.wondery.com. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at How I Built This, and mine is at

Guy Raz and on Instagram or at how I built this and I am at guy.Roz. This episode was produced by JC Howard, with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Sam Paulson. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, Carrie Thomson, Alex Chung, Chris Massini, Carla Esteves, and Kira Joachim. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. to how I built this.

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