How I Built Resilience: Live with Melanie Perkins and Bill Creelman

Hey everyone, and welcome to How I Built This Resilience Edition. On these episodes, we're talking with entrepreneurs about how to think creatively during this really disruptive moment. And today I'm bringing you two conversations. Later on in the show, we'll hear from Bill Krielman, founder of the sparkling water company Spindrift. about how his industry's been affected in the past few months. But first we're gonna go to Melanie Perkins, the founder of Canva. Canva is an online graphic design platform. And when we featured Melanie and the story of Canva on the show back in January of twenty nineteen, her company was valued at a billion dollars. But just a few days ago. Canva announced that they closed a new round that now values the company. At six billion dollars, Melanie joined me from her home in Sydney, Australia, and she talked about the challenges of managing more than nine hundred employees from home and how the company is sustaining itself during the pandemic.

So first of all, I mean have you Have you guys had to face Layoffs. I know you you had about nine hundred employees last time I checked. Uh have you had to go through that at all? No, we've been in a fortunate position that um we're you know, we're a profitable company. We had you know Strong cash reserves.

Um and Canvas continued to grow rapidly throughout this throughout this time. Um I think that the the challenges of navigating um you know from an on l off offline world where we're all meeting and that's such a big part of our culture online. Um that has been Relatively smooth, I guess, because most of our things were already online. We're already working in an online world.

Um but I think that what I th really feel is a huge sense of responsibility. So while we're sort of a stable ship You know, we've got so many students and teachers that are trying to navigate this whole work from home school from home and uh world. Um and that's it's such a huge radical transition. We have all of our businesses Small businesses across the globe are having such a challenging time right now. And so we really feel a huge responsibility to do whatever we can in order to help everyone else across the globe.

Yeah. And what about what about your your employees in Australia? I mean, are you still working remotely? So everyone's working from home. At a s certain point in time. will enable people to go back into the office to work from the office if they so choose, but we're not going to be making it compulsory work from um the office probably for this whole year. Um to ensure that everyone can have that flexibility as they need it. And I think Australia is starting to open up. Schools are going back in session and some places. Um

Uh Other Businesses that you know of Like going back to normal yet, or not quite? Not quite. Um still the government's suggestion is to work from home.

Um and wherever you possibly can. And we really believe that's sort of doing our part to help continue to slow the spread, even as the cases go down. We certainly all don't want to see a second wave. Um and so, you know, being able to have the you know, not so many people in public transport or um commuting or whatever it may be, I think is really important just to do our part. when this pandemic set out upon us, I guess. Um it was really important that we set out sort of our guiding principles and the first one was our safety and well being is the number one and most important thing at all times. That sort of meant that we

you know, early March our team started working from home prior to the government recommendations. Um and then making sure we're supporting our community and then rallying together and growing. I mean they're sort of been the three pillars that we've made all of the decisions for our company based upon in in the months gone. Mel, I wanna ask you to put your entrepreneurs' hat on. And I remember during our interview, you came to San Francisco, you met this one investor, you knew nothing about him except he spoke to your college at Perth in Perth, Australia.

You went out there and you said Oh yeah, I happen to be out here and and can I see you? And and you really hustled. Um, but you also described yourself as an introvert. I mean, I remember you said um you're you're really naturally introverted, but when you have a goal you will force yourself to do everything you need to do to like Achieve that call. We get a lot of questions from introverted entrepreneurs, you know, who have a hard time

asking for help or asking you know for funding or things like that. Especially in this moment, like what kind of advice could you give to somebody who who like you is introverted and and maybe a little bit nervous to put themselves out there? I think that goal is is definitely paramount for me. When I have a goal I think that everything else sort of fades into the background, my nerves Might still be there. Might or whatever else it might be, then might be um might be a bit scary. But I when I have a goal I think I put absolutely everything I can in to achieve that. So you're right, in the early days it was trying to find investors. Now it's you know my goal is how can we support our community. We've got 30 million people around the world that are relying on Canva to help with their social media, to help with their marketing, to help with their education.

And so I think it's so important that we're able to support our community, support our team. We made it a statement early on that we're going to ensure all of our contractors will continue to be paid throughout this recession, uh throughout throughout this time. And so I think that The goal has still stayed the same. In the early days, the goal was, you know, trying to get funding. Now it's trying to ensure our team is Safe, you know, um community is supported. So I guess the introversion just becomes something it's fair into the background a little.

Yeah. Well, you c you don't really have a choice now, right? You're you're you're running a company of nine hundred people. Kind of have to Fake it until you become it, I guess. Yeah, and I guess

Introversion a lot of people think is being shy, but actually introversion is about where you get your energy from. And so I get my energy just being by myself for a little or just with my partner. And so being able to have a little bit of time alone every day is pretty important. And I guess in this whole ISO ISO world. Because everyone is at home a lot more, so maybe it's a introvert in introverts world right now. So it's like you're drinking Red Bull all day. You've got so much energy. So h here's a question about the sort of the business side of things, right? Because Canva is a has a freemium model, right? It's it's you can and I'm sure a huge number, maybe most of your users, are using the free version. It's really Great. You have access to thousands of photos and

There's a subscription, I think it's like ten bucks a month in in the US and then Thirty bucks a month for a premium one. Um How do you monetize the free version of Canva. I guess it goes back to what I was saying before around giving as much value as you can. Um and so that's been one of our philosophies right from the early days was

We want to ensure that people are able to get heaps of value from Canva and there's no blockers. And so we made Canva completely free. Um you can go you can go and purchase some images, you can upgrade to the free version, but if you are wherever you are in the world, whatever your economic situation, we wanted to ensure that you had access to design. Um early on I remember trying to get a um brochure design, it was going to cost a thousand dollars. I was like, who can afford a thousand dollars to get a brochure design? And I guess that's why we wanted to ensure that everyone had access to great design and so it um it wasn't something that only a few people can go and afford. And so I guess that's exactly why we have a free version and it's so philosophically important to Canva.

And essentially the free version is funded by the people who are paying for the subscriptions, right? Yeah, that's exactly right. Um talk to me a little bit about your your sort of your leadership How is your sort of leadership and your your leadership style and and just your own comfort level uh at being a CEO and a leader of a big organization evolved? I think that um it's it everything's just a continuous work in progress. You never are going to have all the answers. Um I think if I was dropped into a nine hundred person company with millions of people around the world using our product, that would be quite scary. But every single day just like a few more people are at the company, there's a few bigger challenges. And so you kind of just build up that muscle as as we grow. The thing that I'm probably most proud of at Canberra is seeing our culture.

Seeing how our team has been able to rally through this crazy period. Like one day we um Said, okay, we we realise we're gonna have to shut down the office, we're gonna have to have everyone working from home. The next day we had an onboarding class, so we had thirty odd people that were joining Canva, but they was already transitioned to work from home. It was just incredible seeing how rapidly we were able to transition. um to an online environment. But I think that behind that has really been our values. So being able to rally people behind

Think goes of You know, being a force for good, supporting our community. Um I think that that is what inspires people. You know, everything that we've done at Canva Yeah, from structure to

The way we you know onboard newvies in share context has really been around Helping to facilitate setting crazy big goals and actually making them happen. This is a question from Jason Lee um via Facebook. Again, to put your entrepreneur hat on. You started this business in I think you launched Canava in twenty twelve, but you were You had a a tough time like raising money at first, explaining to investors what this was, um

If you were starting this business now, how do you think you would have approached it differently? If you were starting something right now, where would you even begin? I think the same place uh we began back then and solving a problem that affects a lot of people, or even a really small number of people to start with, but solves their problem really well. Um, I think is as important now as it was back then when we started our first company, an online design system to create school yearbooks. We had no business experience, marketing experience, like any relevant experience whatsoever. And it was so critical that we just solved a problem really well, which was that school yearbook coordinators had a difficult time creating yearbooks. Just like starting at that really small thing, starting niche and then going wide, I think is really important. And you just have to like learn a little every day. I believe in this concept of just in time learning. You kinda j learn everything just in time or often just after you need to know it. I think that, you know, starting a business today would be really similar to starting a business back then. You just have to Find a problem, solve it well.

And then just keep on learning as you go. You know, given that I mean when you started out you were making you were making physical yearbooks, right? Like you were printing them. I think you were printing them out of your parents' house. But now I mean Especially now when people are are are kind of shut in, things are distributed digitally. they're gonna be distributed digitally more and more so how do you think sort of the design elements that you offer will change and even the approach to design will change as people kind of come to the realization that maybe physical products objects that um require design won't

come in a physical form. Yeah, it's been incredible seeing just within our own community the ch transition, a really rapid transition of what they were creating. So they're creating less event invitations, they're creating less Business cards are creating less flyers. um all of the things that sort of really resonate with the physical world. And what they are creating way more of is things like Zoom backgrounds and presentations and you know learning materials for s you know students and teachers, um, and social media content to be able to um communicate with their community. So that was a huge swing. It was almost overnight that that um the transition happened. So our marketing teams, our design teams, our template designers, um everyone tried to transition on a dime to the to this new world. Um, to help facilitate all of the new things that people needed to design. People are designing more, but completely differently to what they were designing prior.

So like what what's an example? Like I mean, even in the way people are designing things, are you starting to see anything unusual or different? Yeah, just just the really the the dock types, the things that people are actually designing um has transitioned dramatically. Um the e commerce posts and ads and social media posts and um presentations and infographics. Um a really sho sharp spike in infographics as well. Even when we look inside our own company, previously when it was someone's Paniversary, um people would all sign a physical card. Of course that is no longer possible, so people are signing um digital cards on Canva now. Um and then we send that around with lots and lots of gifts in them, which is a bit of fun. Um Mel, before I let you go.

In five years' time When you look back at this moment And you're like, Oh my God, that was crazy. But we became better and did this as a result. What is it you want to be able to say?

I hope as a world that where We come out of this um more connected. More caring about humanity. More caring about every single person's health, every single person's Um ability to have basic human rights.

That would be amazing. From our community perspective, I really hope that we can come out of it and say we did everything we could to support the small businesses and the the students and the teachers that relied on us. all of our community. And I hope on a team level that we're able to say that we did an incredible job of supporting everyone through this trying time, their mental health, their physical well being, their connectedness. I would love to be able to say that on all three of those levels. Well, I know that I've been watching my children, my son work on his fifth grade school yearbook on Canvas, so there you go. One of the billion students uh shut at home.

Um Melanie Perkins, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. That's an excerpt from my conversation with Melanie Perkins, founder of Canva. When we come back in just a moment, we'll hear from Bill Krielman, the founder of Spindrift, about how sparkling water is finding success in e commerce. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This Resilience Edition.

From NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Resilience Edition. So when we first featured Bill Krillman on the show six months ago, Spindrift was gearing up for its biggest year yet. But since then Trade shows have been canceled and many restaurants, including those that sell spindrift cans. Yeah.

I caught up with Bill at his home in Massachusetts, where he's been trying to keep his team safe and also trying to meet an unexpected demand for sparkling water. We had Gary Erickson and and Kit Crawford on the co owners, co founders of um Cliff Bar and they had like there was like a run on Cliff Bars. Like people he you know, it's like toilet paper and cliff bars and they just there was just a massive spike in people buying up. Shelf stable products. Did you see anything like that initially? We did. We absolutely did.

When the initial push came, we saw anywhere from, you know, sort of two to four hundred percent lift. shelves suddenly blown, you know, a huge push to get trucks pulled forward. At the same time, I think the hard thing and really the hard thing for our brand, especially, was that our food service partners obviously felt pressure the other way. Suddenly, you know, they didn't have business to to fulfill. Um, and so what we struggled with was really, you know, kind of balancing being a good partner. For the food service, you know, many of whom are friends and longtime colleagues, and really helping them or thinking with them through how to respond as well as

servicing the rest of the business that was having this huge uptick in sales. You're talking about like the small, like uh fast casual restaurants that also sell spindrift, right? Yeah, f the f the small guys, I mean even Starbucks of the world and Sweet Greens and Panera and you know, these are these are, you know, we would count these people not just as customers of Spindriff, but really as the people that have helped. you know, bring Spindrift into the forefront and, you know, their alignment of food and their value system and ours, you know, really was a big part of our brand growth. And we felt compelled to really try to work with them wherever we could to help help them as they went through this together. And now have you seen a slowdown in sales? I mean I I I would imagine you you have because

Part of the business requires people to pass by the displays in in in grocery stores. And if anyone watching has been to a grocery store like me, You go in and out really fast. Like you just blaze through there and try to get out. Yeah. So I would describe it as really kind of people moving around in different channels. We are an omni channel brand. We made a pretty big decision to move into some of the ecom channels early on. What I would describe is is a move kind of um unfortunately out of some of the food service and the convenience channels that were really affected, and then into some of the channels that like you know, Target.com, um, Costco, Instacard. It's been incredibly dynamic and continues to be dynamic. So we We feel very fortunate. I mean, people are drinking a lot of sparkling water. And so we, you know, generally I would say we we continue to

to push towards, you know, our plan that we had for the year, and that's kind of a something we're s we're looking at continuously. Bill, as you look forward, I mean I imagine that like most businesses, twenty twenty was was going to be your biggest year ever. I mean I think it doesn't seem as if the economy will open up, you know, much more significantly as infection rates increase. Um e commerce may may be increasing, but it may not actually

increase as much as the decrease in sales at supermarkets and at at big box stores. So how How are you thinking about just keeping things in line? Well it's an everyday it's an everyday conversation. I think You know, we see it two ways. I mean, it's it's really hard just in general, the economy side, you know, the pandemic, the shopping habits, and so we want to be a sympathetic and supportive partner.

On the other hand, we're optimistic, you know, our biggest challenge is Getting people that used to drink. Natural flavor. sparkling waters to try an alternative brand. That's all we want them to do. We just want them to try Our product, you know, and and we believe that if enough people try our product and taste how different the liquid is and the flavor and the mouth.

All those sorts of things that they a percentage of them will stay with the brand. And so The great thing about I almost caution using that word, but the shifting channels has really prompted consumers to try a lot of different things that they wouldn't otherwise try. Maybe because the product wasn't available.

the brand they were used to, maybe because they're shopping in a channel that we weren't normally V as visible as we are now or more visible. I'm not sure. There's a lot of different drivers. So we remain optimistic that as we go into the summer That a percentage of the consumers that have discovered spendrift are gonna stay with us. on the ingredient side because our product is about transparency and kind of knowing what you're drinking. You know, we see that move now more and more as you know, as people are more cautious and they want to be healthy and

Given some, you know, the health concerns that are at large, we feel we might be able to offer something that does give them a little bit more assurance of what exactly there is they're trying. You know, Bill, I remember in in the episode um you talked about how you sold your Your first company or actually it was your sort of your second company, um to Diaggio. Um it was called Stirings, it made um cocktail mixers and things and and and leaving that business when you left that It kind of gave you space to come up with a new idea, and that idea, of course, eventually became spin drift. You know, right now a lot of

small business owners are are kind of in that situation that you were in, um, where you know, they're sort of being forced to step away from their businesses right now, um, which is incredibly stressful. Do you have any advice on how to kind of stay focused and think creatively and be open to look looking for new ideas and coming up with new ideas. It's such a Such a challenging time.

It's a great question. We So we started our development for Spindrift in the middle of the economic downturn in two thousand, you know, sort of seven, eight, and nine. When we launched the first batch in two thousand ten, there there hadn't been innovation in in the food and beverage market in in sort of three years, you know, because at that time it was almost it's so it felt weird and almost inappropriate to have new products. And you and you sort of are you're entering a little bit of that phase right now where Retailers, I think, are gonna be looking harder at the brands they have and won't have the bandwidth or due to shopping conditions or a variety of factors. So if I were an entrepreneur starting to think About

a new idea or pivoting an idea that uh a business they have. I actually think There will be lots of opportunity coming out of this. I mean we in some ways By by the innovation pipeline kind of slowing down a little bit, as as typically happens during cycles like this, it gives you a chance to be louder. And it's a less crowded You know, market.

place and the investment often is less because there's just less noise. You don't have to spend as much to to amplify your message. So you know, again it's hard in in the middle of it right now. But I I think I absolutely think there's gonna be opportunities um coming out of this and and even, you know, kind of during it. And and it wouldn't surprise me at all if you see one of these, you know, businesses that we all knew and understood pre Covid. coming out with a better version of itself. And it ends up moving the whole category, whatever category that is forward. How do you imagine this crisis

will change your business model. I mean do you do you think that You're gonna emphasize e commerce more, you're gonna rethink how you distribute your product, um, or or maybe not. It we will do all all of those things and I think any Think all of us in the in the food and beverage And CPG more broadly are are having these discussions. I think it's hard. It's a it's a little bit early.

To draw any real conclusions in our view. Our our biggest the thing we're the most excited about is that within an environment where people are being more thought and are able to spend some more time thinking about their purchases for the brands that Have a deeper story, a richer story, more of an ingrant story. Which is how we think about our brand. There seems to be now maybe there's an opportunity to for longer, more in depth storytelling. And that

That gets me excited. I hope our story is more interesting the more people learn and And I think that's true of a lot of food and beverage brands that are pioneering a category that are doing something really different. You need You need people to hit pause and spend a minute or two longer considering the purchase. And so that that's what we're hopeful will be one of the things that comes out of this. Bill, I wanna turn to um I mean uh obviously a a a subject that has been so uh overwhelming and and crucial and important in the in the United States and around the world.

Um and has been brought to the surface again recently through mass demonstrations, um, racial justice. Um As you know, and and and I'm this is actually a question from one of our listeners, uh viewers, Claire Murashima This moment feels different from a business perspective because businesses traditionally stay quiet. When it comes to

matters that are challenging or uncomfortable or political or whatever they might be. Mm basically the playbook for businesses is say nothing. Yeah, from spindrips perspective, you make sparkling water, right? And you could look at it from that perspective and say, We make sparkling water, that's what we do. But at the same time, you know, um consumer purchase is also a choice.

And we have a lot of choices to make, and so I wonder whether you You know, you you've thought about this and thought We have to we have to take a stand, we have to do something. Yeah, I mean what what an inspiring time, really. Um

I we have had our own journey, as you as you might expect, and it started exactly as you suggest, with kind of talking to our peers and advisors and board and And you're right. I would say in general the groups Consensus was let's not say anything. But for for me, I guess personally I was on

on a on a bit of a personal journey, you know, I have kids and they were asking questions and wondering, you know, what they were we're trying to find their voice. You know, we we are thirty two percent um diverse at Spindrift, so we had you know, I felt an obligation to our our team. And then as a brand, you know, our our brand has never been afraid of self evaluation we've We've changed who we are. any number of times uh from the soda line to the natural flavor position.

to where we are. So I I eventually reached a place where where I felt we we had a voice and the door through for us was really This idea that we can do better. Um, we felt that way with our product, we felt that way with our culture, with our communication. Why can't we do better now?

Why are we suddenly why are we satisfied with how we've done So far. And so we Um we've published our position outwardly. We've spent a lot of time evaluating really inwardly And looking hard, and I'd say going forward, our view is that

We should be scorecarding ourselves the way we talk about sales. In the exact same way. So we're not are not satisfied with with with where we are I think it's Inspired a lot of really important conversations. And and I'm quite proud of really how our team took to this in in in yet another

opportunity for for betterment. Um last question for you, Bill. Um In five years time from now What do you want to take from? this time that you continue to bring with you to your job, to your leadership, to your business.

What is it that you want to say, This is what I learned from that moment and this is why we're better now? It's you know, I it's funny, I think like so many others, I've been searching for kind of what is the meaning to all this and I think you know there's so much Covid and pandemic side between families and and loved ones and concerns and loss. But I guess, you know, from my standpoint, I'm actually starting to feel inspired that perhaps what this was all about was this time at home that we all got with our family, you know, more self reflection and that hopefully

It will lead to real change. In terms of social justice, I mean, wouldn't it be wonderful if If our kids were educated differently now as is as a result of this and Wouldn't it be wonderful if that businesses behave differently, if investors invested now in more, you know, diverse ownership businesses. I mean

I have really struggled to find the connection, you know, in my quiet moments between what's happened March and April, and now it's happening in May and June But I actually I actually think that this could be an incredible moment for us. And looking ahead five years, I would love to look back on this and

obviously acknowledge all the challenges that we've had, but also talk about it as a time that really was incredibly important for the country in terms of moving to a new level of equal that I think previously we just didn't have, in my view. Bill Croman, founder and CEO of Spindrift, thank you so much for for joining us, Bill. Thanks for having me, guy. Nice to nice to talk to you and I hope you remain safe. That's an excerpt from my conversation with Bill Creelman, founder of Spindrift. To see our full interview, you can go to Facebook.com slash how I built this, and if you want to see all of our past live interviews, you can find them there or at youtube.com slash NPR. If you want to find out more about the How I Built This Resilience series or other virtual NPR events, you can go to nprpresents.org. This episode was produced by Candace Lim with help from John Isabella, Julia Carney, Gianna Capadona, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Thanks for listening, stay safe, and I'll see you in a few days.

I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This. From NPR.

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