Rapid Response: Winning and losing, w/Vanderbilt University coach Jerry Stackhouse

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There's always gonna be noise. I like to call it noise. Kind of distractions from What's important and what we know our ultimate goal is. Make short term goals, intermediate goals, and long term goals to get us to where we want to go is gonna be more of a long term goal. Am I optimistic to think that we could do it in the intermediate? Yes, am I hell been on trying to do it in the short term, yes, but you know, I understand the reality of what we face when we got here of how I've building the team, building our talent, building our infrastructure.

You have to learn to adjust to your personnel. And maybe there's something that in your scheme and your vision of long term that you gotta try to tweak a little bit. Flexible and not be so rigid. and what you wanna have happen and live in the moment and hopefully but you can still build That personnel up to be what you ultimately want. You have to just try to tweak your plan a little bit to help them.

That's Jerry Stackhouse, coach of the Vanderbilt University men's basketball team and former NBA all star. With COVID nineteen, his team has faced cancellations, new health protocols, and a pandemic reality of isolation and empty arenas. He's also faced both winning and losing amid that environment. I'm Bob Safian. Former editor of Fast Company, founder of the Flux Group, and host of Masters of Scale Rapid Response.

I wanted to talk with Jerry because His challenges offer a compelling parable. For the obstacles that every business leader faces these days. Leading a team has never been more complicated. Balancing the high stakes of health, racial equity, and media scrutiny?

With the quest for performance. Jerry is both patiently tracking a long term plan and impatiently pressing for improvement. And he's grappling every day. With how young generations are responding to unexpected times. And their intense desire

For a return to normality. I'm Bob Staffi and I'm here with Jerry Stackhouse, coach of the Vanderbilt University men's basketball team and former NBA all star.

Coach Stackhouse is coming to us from his home in Nashville, Tennessee, as I ask my questions from my home in Brooklyn. New York. Jerry, thanks for joining us. Thank you, Bob. Thanks for having me, man. So this is your second season in charge of Vanderbilt. And it's hard to Imagine two seasons that would precede

With so much disruption. Right, Covid Nineteen cut short. last year's N CA basketball season and since then college basketball programs Starts and stops, constant uncertainty.

Leading an N CA basketball program has never been easy. But these are new challenges. How has the job been? What you expected it to be. And how has it been different?

Yeah, I think really Covet has changed things. But I think for what we're able to control, the I mean the basketball part of it has been pretty good and pretty steady. you know, being able to to get in the gym and practice and obviously the the day to day With our athletes and them, you know, being full time students. Obviously that's changed with everything kinda going virtual now. So that's had some implications as you m might imagine, when freshmen coming in, you pretty much try to put your arm around them and make sure they get to class and do all these type of things. And now

They're doing everything on their own. So it's about, you know, am I gonna make sure I get on this Zoom or am I gonna Get on my phone and get on social media. So it's been a little bit of a challenge. But our guys have been really great, man. For the most part, man, we got a lot of work in. at the early part of the season we had all of our guys so we were able to practice You know, the summer was really different. We were the last game at the SEC tournament last year and then they shut everything down after that. So

It was different. It's not like we felt like we were in a bubble by itself. Everybody's affected by not being able to go and see recruits, not being able to get on the road and not having the normal summer that you would have leading into a a college season. But, you know, for the most part I think we've Made the best of it.

Is your relationship with your guys different because of COVID, because of all the other things that are going on? Well I think so, man. I think they really value that time together. because they're pretty much isolated. When they go back to their dorms and not allowed to visit with each other or really come and see with each other. So they really enjoy that time. And we enjoy that time with them, you know, the film sessions. Even when we have a a light day and

They're still hanging around the gym. I was like, We might as well practice if y'all still gonna hang around the gym, but they just like no, we we get chance to talk to somebody. So it's that's just the new world that we're living in with Covet, but I do think we all become closer because we spend that time together and you're teaching them and and they're learning. You know, they're having successes, they're having some failures, and it's all new to us too. Yeah, the recent win for the team, but not all the games have gone well. There's been some media swirling as well. There's ковид, there's social justice акціон.

Wins and losses. What's the measure of success? For a program in an environment like this. There's always gonna be noise. I like to call it noise. It's just kinda distractions from What's important and what we know our ultimate goal is. Make short term goals, you kinda have intermediate goals and you have long term goals. When I took this job I knew to get us to where we wanted to go was gonna be more of a long term goal.

Am I optimistic to think that we might could do it in the intermediate? Yes, am I hell been on trying to do it in the short term. Yes. But you know, I understand the the reality of uh what we faced when we got here of how I building the team, building our talent. Building our infrastructure. Think our infrastructure

It's to the point now to where we feel like we can really go out and have success. And I think that that was why I was brought here. When I got hired at Vanderbilt, the talk was about trying to find their ceiling. I feel like We've had some good basketball teams, but can we find our ceiling or really feeling putting it all together really investing into our athletics as other teams in the SEC has and we got that commitment, got that commitment from our chancel, got that commitment from our A D.

So it's like You know, we know where we are. The team that I inherited when I got here didn't win a game in the SEC. You know I'm saying I have those same players Minus A couple of draft picks. Yeah, I lost my best play. I lost twenty four points out of my starting lineup on the very first

Game of the N C against Auburn. Um, and we've still found a way to win us three games. We feel like we're trending in the right direction with what we're doing and how we're going about it. I'm a firm believer that teams that play together and really understand

how to share the floor together and understand the game of basketball. can do some amazing things. So yeah, when you look at us on paper, it it's probably realistic to say, Okay, they're not gonna be there right now. They are years so away. I think differently. I think that it can happen for us and that we can beat anybody that we play and I'm really excited about My kids their potential to to finish out this year. That's a lot of noise that comes With these high visibility jobs.

And it's fun to when you can answer the bell. And then I think our true fans, they understand it, that we're part of a build. And I think that they see the progress that we're making. A lot of the folks listening to this are entrepreneurs or people who are Trying to build their own teams.

Right. And sometimes they can get everybody they want. Sometimes They get who they have, right? And they're trying to go up against other teams that may be more resourced or more established in the marketplace. Are there Key things that you

Anchor on about what kinda brings a team together. What makes a team Work. You can have a plan of what you know in your perfect world when you have All of the personnel that you want.

You know, how things could pan out, but then you have to learn to adjust to your personnel. And maybe there's something that in your scheme in your vision of long term that you gotta try to tweak a little bit. You know, in the midterm. So you adjust. So I just think being able to be flexible and not be so rigid. and um what you wanna have happen and kinda live in the moment and hopefully you know you can still build that personnel up to be you know, what you ultimately want, you know, instead of having to go out and outsource it and think you gotta get another piece or someone else. Just work with them and eventually they'll maybe be able to accomplish the things that you want. But

And uh immediate you have to just try to tweak your plan a little bit to help them. Um, the women's basketball team at Vanderbilt had to end their season due to health and safety concerns and Covid. How did that impact

Your team, like do your players get worried about Covid? Are you worried about it? Yeah, I think we're all worried about it. I mean, it's like the happiest part of my day is when I get a a text from my trainer and said, All Covid tests are negative. That's that that's the best part of my evening. I mean we test three days a week And I mean I just said y you would think about Okay.

The game, right? Like the game, the game the game's not the most important thing for us right now. Getting to the game is the most important thing. And uh making sure that we have an opportunity for our kids to compete when they make all these sacrifices of trying to stay out of harm's way and it's still it could happen. I mean it could happen at the pharmacy. It could happen at the grocery store. So it's real. It's a reality of living and trying to play college basketball in a pandemic and

Yeah, I try to be transparent, make sure I have full dialogue with my parents and our athletes. Cause at the end of the day it's it's your decision. And we just want to go by the protocols. There's nothing wrong with opting out. You know saying I don't feel comfortable doing this, but our team, our parents, they want it. We take extra measures here. That's something that I'm truly proud of, that we make sure that none of our athletes If they've had any dealing with covet or anything that they're not getting back on the floor until they have their M R I of their heart and there's a ramp up, we're not just throwing'em right back out there.

You gotta respect the the things that they dealt with. It wasn't just the Covid things. I think they were were dealing with a a ton of injuries, so it was hard for them to really feel the team. that they felt could compete and then obviously with the emotional side of it, but for us, shortly after that I met with my team and uh again just kinda put it out there. We will not hold it against you in any way if you don't feel comfortable to be out here, but you know, once you got A foot in the

in the sandbox, you're gonna have to stay in the sandbox. So I think that's how we've dealt with that and we've continued to forge forward. Sports and basketball have played a big part in the Anti racism movement. Over the last year, especially the NBA. How do you talk with your players when it comes to the

social justice issues. I mean, what do you hear from them about it and To what extent is that part of the dialogue within the team? I hear optimism from them. I think um when we had the George Ford tragedy, I really think it just shocked everybody and I I really wanted to hear from our players. I mean, I wanted them to put something on paper. I mean, I was made a project for them to write me and kinda give me their thoughts and how they felt. And it was arranged. But I think the majority of our guys were truly optimistic. I mean, I think we gotta learn so much from them. It's generation Z, you know I mean I I think they just think differently. I mean it it's the smartest generation that we've had.

Do they You know, have all the common sense every time. No, they're kids and we still gotta keep'em on track, but they got big ideas about, you know, how to solve this. So I d I didn't spend a lot of time trying to talk to them about something that they're obviously hadn't been the right answers to

because we're still dealing with that right now and it's a big part of our society. But the reality of it is is let's try to educate ourselves Try to, you know, not let it be an elephant in the room. to be bold enough to speak on issues to stand up for and I think the NBA has done a great job. You know, with the

Black Lives Movement, being able to allow guys to wear things on the jersey, on the floor, I mean, they they really took the lead on a lot of that. Obviously they got a l a lot of pushback. And a lot of negative feedback. So I mean it just shows you that it's there, it's real. And we gotta try to fight it together. I just kinda left it open to my kids if they wanted to kneel, if they wanted to stay in the locker room. Some kids like maybe we could

adopt some program or, you know, bring some kids into the games and stuff, but now we can't have fans at games. Hopefully once we kinda get out of this thing we can do some things more geared to addressing some of those issues. So it sounds like they feel this I don't want to say burden or necessarily responsibility, but the fact that as athletes they are role models and they have a certain platform that they can use and it sounds like at this point They're limited in how the ways they can express that.

Yeah, I mean that one kid he just he doesn't understand it. He couldn't fathom seeing that. Went to a private school, so he never dealt with any type of police profile, racial profile, and anything. He couldn't fathom it. This is a black kid. You know, and then I got a kid that was like I I don't feel comfortable walking on campus sometimes, you know I'm saying. This is something that's right around us and that these kids feel then And we gotta try to find a way to help them with it. And then there's kids that's like

Man, it's been this long and hadn't anything changed. I'm just not optimistic. Right. That is gonna change. So it's like man, y'all got all these different views in my starting lineup. So and we're trying to get them to play together, but no, it's just the reality of how different people feel about different things. And I think we have to respect that, but that's the most important thing that we're not gonna always agree But we gotta learn to live with each other and learn with different perspective and different views, different cultures.

And uh I think that's what makes America what it is. It's kind of a melting pot of people that can coexist together. But we wanna see it. Lived out on a On a bigger scale. Than it is right now.

Do they turn to you for guidance about how they should express themselves or like what's appropriate on social media or isn't? I mean, as an NBA player. I don't know whether you thought of yourself as a role model and whether you had a responsibility to leverage your platform. People didn't really talk that way, you know, back when you were playing, right? I don't think you just uh taking a stance to take a stance on different things and I I don't feel like My guys expect me to

Go out and be someone who I'm not. I mean I think we you know we live in I world the time that I have with them. Right. Now my chief of staff. She meets with them and giving them, you know, different little life lessons and then they talk about those things. But Again, it's not something that anybody really wants to talk about consistently. It's like it's the elephant in the room, you know, let's just

Coexist. It's unfortunate, but that's kinda reality. Hm. And do you feel like There's more that sports should be doing to have an impact? Then or

Uh why why sports? You know, yeah, I think the athletes are doing what they feel that they can do. Um I think the NBA g you know partnering with the players association to try to put The major dollars towards the Fighting social injustice.

Think that's a start, but You know, where's everybody else? uh big business, you know, Wall Street. I mean, everybody has a responsibility for this. I don't think Athletes or the sports. Markets are responsible for

the issues that are present. Could there be more black general managers? Could there be more black head coaches? Absolutely. You know, but Again, I think those are things that we just continue to push for and strive for. Hopefully we Eventually get a little more of a a level playing field.

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Learn more at creativeplaning dot com slash masters of scale. Hey, listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely. From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI.

Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone.

Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Has this been a stressful year for you? No, I mean I I don't really get too stressed about much, but my team, you know, I've dealt with some loss this year. I lost my my father. Um

So that you know, that's that's been All that stress, you know, I think that's the real stress. I mean, I love what I do. I mean this is a a blessing to be able to still be a part of a game that's I've been playing since I was seven, eight years old, or even younger. But I think I had an opportunity to play it a long time. be a part of the game and now still be able to give back and and teach the game. So I I feel fortunate from that standpoint. But yeah, my mom, you know, she's ninety.

Ninety two years old. This year. for my dad's obviously been together all of my life and longer and for her to lose him. So yeah, it's it's it's tough, you know, to deal with with those things, but you know Those are life things.

But I don't have time to be stressed. I had to try to just keep moving and making sure that I'm I'm the answer to other people's problems and not try to Dwell in my own. So to speak. When we talked before, it struck me that you have a certain confidence about yourself. In whatever environment

You're gonna find a way to make it through. Whatever's in front of you. Certainly the sense I got from you as a player, didn't matter what system you were in, you're gonna find a way to have an impact. Thank you. Being able to adjust and adapt, you know, even when people don't think that you can. I mean, I think it goes back to

When I got traded to the Dallas Mavericks and I was playing, Don Nelson was the coach at the time. So it's like stack house, what's gonna happen is you're gonna accept his role of coming off the bench. I'm like, Man, I even got here, I hadn't even got to a practice yet, and it's already questions about what I'll accept. But Nelly, when we first talked, he's like, Man I got six starters. That's how he started the conversation. I got six starters. I mean, like I was a six man myself, but you're gonna play starter minutes.

You're gonna be there at the end of games. It's just only five guys to start, but I got six starters. And the way he approached that then just brought it to me. Yeah, it just it it calmed all my anxieties or any bad thoughts about it and to the point that where I embraced it, man. And next thing I know in that role and people seeing me in that role, feel like I accepted a role. that man when I took off my jersey to walk to check in the game, there was already standing ovations in the gym. So I got pretty much more

celebration from being a six man than I would if I was in the starting lineup. So I just think, man, that's it for me, being able to adapt and adjust. I became a guy who was called selfish early on when I was averaging thirty some points to Uh a guy that

you know, I wanted to have in my locker room to mentor my young guys. Because I was able to teach them how to Except roles and I had a a real story to tell them and to share with them about How you can have success. With less.

And I think that's really the message that I give to our guys, man. Like I know everybody wants to play a ton of minutes. I get it, but Again, you gotta earn it. And at the same time The accepting of your role.

Keep getting better every day. And whatever role this asking you in your role can expand. And if you do that, I've never ever seen it in any season of basketball where some good things don't happen for you. And I've been in the game a long time. So that's my message and my sell to them to keep working, keep doing what you're doing. It's gonna turn and I think they're starting to see it now. You mentioned that the last game you played with fans was almost a year ago. What's it like to compete in an empty arena?

You know what, uh man, it's really like I don't even notice it. I'm so locked into the ninety four feet and the guys inside the line. Most of the time when when we're in arena with fans, I don't even really feel the fans, you know. I'm I'm so locked in on what's going on, trying to see all ten guys on the floor. I think that's that's where you really grow as a coach, you know, when you're able to see All ten guys and kind of what's going on. Do your players miss having fans out there? Or is it some ways easier for you and for them? With

One less layer of distraction. I think that's been a message for them, like, man, we gotta create our own enthusiasm. We're better at it. We were weren't good at the beginning of the year, but our guys have gotten better. They got some chance. They got some different things going on. So we go to other places and We're like the noisiest group uh out there, you know, because the fans are still having to be spaced out somewhat. And we're still there in that little little circle. So it's like us against the world.

If I asked you What's at stake. In this moment. For you For your team.

What do you feel like's at stake? Think you're always you building your Your reputation as a coach, you're building your reputation as players. I think we all have aspirations of a wanting to be successful. So I mean I think there's always something at stake.

You gotta be able to have a a plan and understand in your mind what your expectations are. What your goals are. And you can't get sidetracked. By anything. And and I think that's the message.

to our guest. So I think those are just Little life lessons that we try to talk about. you know, on a daily basis to stay grounded and stay centered to know that yeah, you know, we We all wanna be successful. But you know, we gotta do the things that it requires to have that success.

When you talk about being successful, there's a dialogue in some business about the value of failing and failing fast. And what you learn from failure. How do you talk to your team about Loss? About losses, about when you're behind.

I think you really have to take lessons from losses. We go back and we watch the film and we understand That we didn't do what we were supposed to do in this situation. That's why they scored. When I grade the defense, sometimes I put check scored. Right. Like we checked we did everything that we were supposed to do within our scheme, but We don't do that enough times and I think that that's how we hold guys accountable. Like, you know, guy may have

Five mistakes. You got one blow by You didn't you know help the helper, he didn't contest the shot, so that's minus three. You got a steal, you got a deflection. You know, or draw a charge, that's plus two. And so that's how we

You know, hold them accountable. And young guys they're gonna have minus nine. Minus seven, minus you know, and trying to see that the little older guys, they probably have minus three, minus four. And once everybody numbers start to dwindle. Then the game's gonna do what it's supposed to do.

Right now we're top three offense in the in the SEC. So it's about the defensive side of the ball, make sure that we're more accountable there. I don't even have to be the coach. They know what we're supposed to do. So now we gotta go out there and execute it longer and harder. We ain't worry about the losses, man. Like with records, man, you that can turn so fast. Once you get on a roll. But once they do it, man, we might not sh you know I'm saying, we good to run off ten or eleven on these people. You know what I'm saying? That's the conversation that we're having.

When are we gonna stop beating ourselves? That's the question. That's how I coach. I want you to take pride and to stop seeing yourself on this film with me telling you this time after time after again. At some point you gotta be fed up and say, Okay, enough is enough. I'm gonna do my job. When enough of us do that, do our jobs consistently, we're gonna have the success. There's no doubt in my mind that's what's gonna happen. And when those principles take hold

You don't have to be holding them accountable because they're holding each other accountable. Absolutely, man. You said a mouthful right there. Like I said, it's cool for me to say it, cool for our coaches to say it, but when guys that you hang out with and you talk about like man, this you know. Come on, man. Do your job. You know, like that's the leadership and I'm getting that now. We did it.

at a level that I haven't had a team that I've coached in the last four years do it. against Mississippi State. That was the best defensive grade that I've had since I've been coaching and like sixty eight percent Of our defensive possessions we got correct. I mean like normally you just gonna be somewhere in the forties or fifties, you know, just half half and basketball is a game of mistakes. But if you're doing it in the sixties, man, you can put that one on the left hand side every time.

I notice like these metrics are really important to you. When did you tune in on that these numbers and metrics was the way to measure the teams. I got that from Dean Smith. Everything that I'm doing, I learned from him. We come in and watch those games. It's like, yeah. Jerry, yeah, you had You were flat. You got three mistakes and three good. You got and you had good savvy. So you you were flat. Well, I wanna see you plus, though. I wanna see you plus.

You know, so it's like that's my same spill, man. Let's get plus, let's get positive. So it's not yeah, and I believe like the analytics, yeah, I know analytics has a place. I mean, I think it's a a great tool. But he was ahead of the game. You know what I'm saying? You can call it analytics, you call whatever you want it, but I call it what I learned that in Chapel Hill for playing for Dean Smith. Well, thank you, Jerry. Thanks so much for doing this. Appreciate you, man. Thank you, man. Take care, guys.

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