HIBT Lab! Saysh: Wes and Allyson Felix

Hello and welcome to how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. Alison Felix is one of the greatest athletes. Of all time in fact. She is the most decorated American track and field athlete in history.

When she ran in the Tokyo Olympics, She did so without a shoe sponsor. And it happened because her previous, Nike, offered Allison a contract that she felt was a lowball. And so Allison decided to do something

totally unconventional. She made her own shoe and she became the first Olympic athlete to run in a shoe that Was her own brand. The idea came from Allison's brother and business partner, Wes Felix. And now they turn that single idea into a shoe brand called Seish.

It's a lifestyle and running shoe brand that is designed specifically for women's feet. And you might be wondering, wait. Aren't all women's athletic shoes designed for women's feet? Well, the answer actually is no, and you'll hear why in a moment.

Allison and West both started Trek and Field as teenagers, and it wasn't long before their talent and effort led them to much bigger competitions. Wes you were really the the first track star in your family,'cause uh from what I I understand, Allison, you didn't really start. running track until you got to home and and Wes you went to U S C on a track scholarship, right? I did, yeah, yeah. I went to S C on a track scholarship and You know, Alison and I always kinda joke that like it went from when we were younger, people would come up to her and be like, Oh, you're Wes's sister, right?

And you know, and then real quick it like switched and it was like you're Allison's brother. Um so it was something Allison and I really were able to share together. This love for the sport, this um, you know, this kind of passion to to try to excel in it. Um She just You know.

A whole lot better. Allison, you decided Um, your senior year of high school. Go pro which I was

I guess was kinda controversial at the time because you were Offered obviously s every school wanted you. Um uh on their team and and including US C where West went. But you decided That you would

sign a a deal with Adidas. And become a a professional athlete and still eventually go to college and and do your degree. But But that was kind of like a

As I say, it was kind of a controversial decision at the time, right? Definitely. It was something that in the US To my understanding, no one had done before. And So, you know, people had all their thoughts on it. I remember watching one of Wes's track meets. It was like the US C U C LA dual meet and it was on TV and so I'm I'm watching in the broadcasts. And somehow like my name comes up and

they start talking about this decision and if I go pro, it's the worst decision in the in the history of high school athletes. And so it was just a lot of people had different thoughts on it. But for our family, it really came down to A timing thing. You know, West was at USC and I understood like to be collegiate athlete like N CAAs came first you do all of the events it's about points and all of those things yeah um and at this time the Olympics were gonna be the next year this is Athens 2004 yeah Athens 2004 um and so it was like if I'm going to try to make that team I'm really gonna need to focus in on one event and peeking at the right time and giving myself the best shot. And so ultimately that was kind of the decision maker.

And that was at two hundred meters. Exactly, yes. So As a result of that, you would not you were you couldn't get a scholarship and compete.

at the collegiate level. Um But obviously you wanted to compete in the Olympics, which you you did. You won a silver medal. In two thousand four. Um and then this sort of parallel world, West, you are You've got the successful career at USE.

Pect ten champ. in the hundred meter. I mean But also it sounds like Wes you you were also really focused on just college and getting a degree knowing that

Probably this was not gonna be your career. Yeah, definitely. I like never thought about it. as a career, um I knew I wanted to work in sports and entertainment, wanted to, you know, do deals and um didn't have this like full master plan of what that would look like. But at the time it was just let me let me run fast and work hard and it was what was paying for college and Um, you know, and also like I was running well, winning

Felt good and My dad said. You know, if there's an opportunity to continue running. Um, why would you not take that? You know, like school's gonna be there, your mind's gonna be there. Um but

this opportunity to run professionally to go and sign a sponsorship deal. That's That's only there for a little bit. And you did. After you graduated. You Did become a professional athlete for for a few years and ran for Nike.

I mean it it sounds like you were Trying. you were sort of th there was a goal, possibly to at least compete for the Olympic trials. But you I guess y there was a uh a detour that that you took as a result of of an illness, right?

Yeah, totally. I um had a liver virus. I just was in practice and Just felt really tired, couldn't hit times, you know, and My coach was kinda like, What's going on? You know, and I was like, I'm not sure. And he's like, Are you getting your rest? Are you doing all the things? And I'm like, I'm doing all the things, like nothing's changed. And um, went to the doctor and so we start the tests and um And they run through and see like yep, your liver enzyme levels, liver function levels are like

off the charts something here is wrong. Um and s probably a good six months of just c in and out of the hospital, constantly taking tests, liver biopsies But ultimately we got to a point where the doctor just said, you know, we're We know that there's something wrong with your liver. We know that there is at at least a minimum a virus attacking your liver. Um, we think that you need to stop competing and um so stopped competing.

And um Yeah, and I think in a lot of ways it was like It was really hard, but it was probably the best best gift I could have gotten. Hm.

Um became a student at USC. And I guess you weren't on the track team. You were a you were a competing at the international level, but you weren't you w you were a student at USC studying education. Yeah, I was studying education. I was a normal student, but I was also a professional athlete at the same time. Wow. And I was I was having a really tough time, like my freshman year because The way that track and field works is the majority of your competitions are overseas. And so here I am, like, you know, in Switzerland. racing and trying to explain to my professor why I need to take like a final on the road. And they're like, but you're not on the track team, you know? So it was that first year was really, really bumpy.

Um You Would go to the Beijing Olympics. Um and Compete again.

Um and w and once again you won silver in the two hundred meters. The the team won gold in the relay. In meantime, Wes, you kind of knew that your career as a runner was over. Um, and so what did you What did you decide to do? Yeah, I knew that I was really interested in

in business. And so I called one of my friends and I was like, Hey, I think I'm gonna start like A fake business. Like I just want to practice. Like to just see like what are the steps? How do I build it? Like what do we do? And um and he was like Yeah, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Like, why don't you just actually start something? And I was like, Yeah, I have no idea how to do that. And he was like, Well, I think you could figure it out. And so Um

I had this idea that was a Online women's Fitness. Uh email newsletter. Um, and I like

learned how to code and you know, like took this idea and and built this website and built out an email newsletter subscription service and Um, but along the way You know, I also was talking with Allison and was just like, Yeah, I don't know. I'm like kinda I'm getting into this thing, like building this thing, but I've always wanted to you know, do deals for athletes. And what if we work together? Like what would that be like? And we started this conversation of of just exploring it, you know, and what would that even mean? What would it look like? And I remember that you know, Allison had like her contract with Adidas and it was this really great deal, really, really incredible opportunity for her, um, a really big deal in the sport.

Um, but I looked at what she was making off the track. I was looking at, you know, those sponsorships that she had outside of Adidas. And we kinda looked at each other and I was like, I think I can do that. I can go scrape up. that much money. And worst case. You know. Then

It doesn't work and you go back to, you know, a more traditional agent in the sport, but what if it does work and we get to do it together and so I remember I wrote her a letter And this was after our conversation and we should look for this one day because it was probably so ridiculously formal trying to be professional at twenty five years old. And sent it over to her and said, you know, basically Dear Miss Allison Felix, I think we can partner up and I think we can Change the world a little bit.

And um Yeah, she was sweet enough to say, Yeah, I think we can. So you you basically become your sister's agent. At this point. And one of the cool things that you did

I think it's so important. for anyone who who's going to any field to think about doing exactly what you did was you reached out to Serena Williams' agent, Jill Smoller, who you didn't know you had no connection to I guess you got to her over Facebook and you said, Hey, can I Like

Hang out with you for a little bit of time just to learn from you. Yeah, completely. I I thought There is a whole lot that I don't know. Um but I also knew that

kind of this this dream or vision that I had for my little sister was Bigger than just what I had seen in track and field. And I thought, okay, if we could build any sort of Business around a female athlete. Who would I want her to be? And I was like, Well, Serena.

You know, and um and I was like, Well who helps Serena do what Serena does? and looked it up and and found Jill's name and got her phone number and called the office and got to her her assistant and tried to set a meeting and couldn't get a meeting, couldn't get a meeting, couldn't get a meeting and finally I was like, I'm just gonna try on Facebook. And I had no idea if she would be on Facebook. And sure enough, um she was, sent her a message. She wrote me right back and She said, What are you doing? Why didn't you call my office instead of meeting like a normal person? And I was like, I've been trying to get to you like through your through your office. It's not working. And she was like, All right, come in tomorrow.

So I came in tomorrow and she's like, So what are we talking about? And I just pitched her what I thought Allison could be. And um she said, I really like you and I really like this idea and I think Allison's incredible. Let's do it. Yeah. So what did that mean? I mean'cause

Being an agent, right, like there's a certain kind of approach you have to take. And um so how did you learn what did you learn from her uh about how to Do deals and how to represent. Ellison the best way you could. Yeah, totally. And I would say like

What Jill taught me right away was first um humility. And she said, you know, there's gonna be days you might be on a private plane with the CEO of some big company. And there will be days you're gonna go and you're gonna run and you're gonna grab your client water. You need to be exceptional at both of them. Um because the job is both. And she was like you are never That important.

To not go and run and get the water. And I was like, okay. Wow. And it was that was easy with my sister, right? Because like if she was thirsty, I wanted her to have water. Um, but the other thing she said she taught me was how important information was. Um And she was like, A lot of people are gonna come to you with opportunities. That's great. She was like, You don't you don't need me for that. But you don't know.

is how much other people are getting for that same opportunity. Um, and when she said that, it fullick, and my trust for her like grew even more. And people would come to me and they're like, You've got the biggest athlete in the sport. Why do you have this? this talent agency. Why are you doing that? You know, like the deals are gonna come to you. Why would you split the commission there?

Um, and it was because somebody can come with a ten cent offer. But it's really a dollar deal. And that's what Jill helped me with. Yeah. And I learned really quick. They saw Allison's brother. And that was a that was an opportunity to take advantage of us. And as soon as I brought Jill in, then it was I've got to get it together. The numbers have to be right. It has to be fair. And so the issue wasn't could we get the deal or not? We could get the deal. We just couldn't get the deal for the right money. And Jill made sure the money was right.

Well. Okay, so here you are, the two of you are building a business around Allison and her incredible talent and and I guess shortly after launching your own agency in in becoming Allison's agent, Wes. Um you secured a new sponsorship deal for Allison. So leaving

Adidas signing with Nike. And then two years later in twenty twelve. Um, Allison, you get to the London Olympics, you finally win the gold in the two hundred meters, which Th that must have been an incredible moment for you.

It was It felt like such a long time coming and When Wes and I started to work together, it was like this sense of relief because It was just like okay, I can fully trust this person. I can put my head down and do what I need to do. And so I remember

going into the London Olympics and obviously now the pressure is even more because it's like I've tried this twice before. Um I don't want to wait four more years to have another opportunity. And I just had this sense of calm. I remember like getting to the starting line and I looked back at I log every workout, I write everything down. I remember like just going back over it and I was like I'm ready. Like

If this is for me, it is going to happen because there's nothing else. I could have done in preparation. And I remember just giving my all and then finally, you know, looking up to the scoreboard and seeing my name come up there. And it was just like Was I think the relief was bigger than the joy.

If that makes sense. It was just Yeah. And I think I also had just built it up. Like I thought like once I got this gold medal. Like everything was gonna change. Like I just this is what I've been like aiming for. And then I remember like coming home and being like Oh my gosh, I feel exactly the same. Like what happened here? And I I think the lesson in that

Um was just really like Instead of Just this one goal that I've been aiming for like the beauty has been along the way. Like that was the magic. And I had to just like look back and say like the next time I have like a defeat or a failure, like I'm gonna embrace it. I'm gonna

Like go I get another opportunity, like I'm just gonna have a different mindset. Meantime, from a business perspective. What other things were you guys thinking about to kind of build out the business? Were you already thinking about, hey, maybe we can do a line of apparel or maybe we can Work with a beverage company. W were either of you thinking about starting something yourselves or was it mainly focusing on endorsements and

Partnerships. Yeah. It was really focused on endorsements and partnerships. I think that like everything that we had seen Was this like constant reminder

That the individual athlete It's not really about That it's about the big brand that you can help sell their product. And the goal is Have the best brands. And if you have the best brands. Then you'll have the best brand.

Yeah. Um, and so I remember us really focusing on on the blue chip sponsors, you know, make sure you have Visa. Procter and Gamble. Nike. Gatorade. Like these are the ones that if you

Partner with those companies. You know, they have a similar type of storytelling. And that's what Allows you to become Mia Ham, Serena Williams, Michael Jordan. It's the sponsors that do it. You know, and so it was this idea that like our job is

Work really hard. Allison has to win on the track. I have to go find the sponsors and then make sure that there's a cohesive story. And if we do that, Then You know.

Everything else like comes into focus and it all takes care of itself. We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, we'll hear more about Allison's Olympic triumphs and the contract renewal offer from Nike. That changed everything. That's ahead in just a moment.

I'm Guy Raz and you're listening. How I built this lab. Welcome back to how I built this lab. My guests are Wes and Allison Felix. Alright, so the two of you

Allison's track career around sponsorships with With big brands. And I guess this was sort of the typical playbook for an Olympic athlete. And and And Alison, you would go on in the real Olympics in twenty sixteen, I think, to win A silver medal and two gold medals.

Uh that year. Mm-hmm. And then the next year, twenty seventeen, you are up for renegotiation with Nike to renew your contract. And and I guess they came back with a a surprisingly low ball offer. W what do you remember about that?

I remember When Wes called me and he told me what it was. Um And The number was seventy percent less than

what I had been making. And I remember just feeling like somebody had just like punched me. And at this point, that world championships that we just came off of, I think West Mistake, correct me if I'm wrong. I think I had become the most decorated athlete at World Championship history. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So it was like this moment of like Aha. Like we were celebrating like this is great. Like for me, I had been happy at Nike. And I was just like, Okay, cool, I'm gonna sign, you know, this will be my last deal, I'm gonna end here. Like I didn't think yeah anything more. So then when it came back, it was just like

Oh my gosh. They don't believe in me anymore. And for me, like that is just huge. Like I tried to be a good partner, you know, go above and beyond whenever There was calls, you know. I remember getting a call like my thirtieth birthday that I had like planned for like a year, and you know, I got a call like, Well can you be here like somewhere across the world? And I'm like Yeah. I guess I have to cancel my birthday party, you know? So

It was just very hurtful. Yeah. And at that point, as you mentioned, you had You wouldn't Winningest track and field. athlete in the world, like you'd won more medals at At world events.

Which is amazing. Um But this is the thing, like You know, it it doesn't matter. How how often you go to the meetings and how often you show up at headquarters and how many times you say yes and and and all the people there who love you and work with you, like at the end of the day, like

it comes down to a renegotiation and none of that seems to matter and it's crazy, but it's It's like how big corporations work. Yeah. And I think that's you know, that like you said, that's how it works. And I was like, Okay, I guess I'm At that age where You know?

It's up and it's you know, it doesn't matter that my performance hasn't gone down. It's just like this is what happens at this time period and it's business and I okay. But then at the same time I had been putting off like my real life stuff that I wanted to do because I was like

Well You know, my job is to win medals. I have to be focused on this. And so that's when all of that shifted and I was like okay, well if They're offering me this. They think I'm done.

I've been waiting to like, you know, I I wanna have a family, like do all these things. I I've just why am I waiting any longer? Yeah. So you ran unsponsored. because you were in these negotiations with Nike that would last about a year and a half. Um but meantime

You became you you were married. and became pregnant with your with your first child. Um, and you were worried about

Anyone finding out that you were pregnant while you were training so you would train in the dark? To hide your your baby bump? Yeah, so this was like something that had happened. in track and field. And

I was naive to it, you know, when I was younger, you know, I'd been in the sport since I was a teenager and I kinda s heard whispers and saw different things. And then as I got older I really understood what it was. But Um Women really struggled. Through

Pregnancy and motherhood and track and field. And so what they would do is if they were like in between contracts like I was, they would. hide their pregnancies, they would sign new deals. And then they would carry on. Um or contracts would be paused, athletes would be reduced. And so there was just like all of this struggle that would happen. And so I was just I had so much fear around you were still negotiating with Nike in the hopes of resolving this.

Yes, it was the worst timing ever. And I told Wes, I was like, I've been the best client up until now. I'm now I'm making life really hard for you. And so even where we started off those negotiations, we didn't have anything on paper yet. So the fear really was that Even that seventy percent less would be taken away. Once they found out that I was pregnant. So That's when I started

To say like okay, I'm just gonna do what everybody else has done. Um, until I'm ready to, you know, see something on paper and and disclose my pregnancy. And so I trained at four o'clock in the morning when it was dark. Um, I went on for a a time period where I was competing and I was pregnant and Nobody knew. Um

I wore baggy clothes I rarely left the house, like this whole time period that like I had dreamed about and that I was so excited about that should have been celebrated. ended up being the most isolating dark and lonely and just really difficult time period in my life. You also had preclampsia, um, which I'm very familiar with'cause we my my wife also had it in our with our first

Children. And so you gave birth at thirty two weeks. to Cameron to your daughter. Um Yeah. Um I mean It was crazy and Being an athlete, I think I took my health for granted.

I just never imagined I would be in that scenario and There was points where, you know, when I called my family You know, they weren't sure if what they were coming for. You know, were they coming Because I wasn't going to make it, were they coming, you know, to meet

granddaughter, niece, like it just it was very scary. And and then I think it just made everything feel so heavy because we're going through still this just Brutal. renegotiations and then this Like real life event happens where it's like

Does any of this even matter? You know, I just want my daughter to survive. I want to be able to leave the hospital, and it was just it just felt like too much. And in my mind, I had this like plan before any of this happened. I was like okay, I'm gonna have this baby I'm going to come back in four weeks. I am going to train. Like this is what I know how to do. I'm just gonna get it done. And then everything went out of the window. Um, I it it took much longer than

I could have ever imagined, and I remember my first workout back. My coach he gave me a treadmill workout that was a thirty minute walk. And by the end I'm just Crying because I just I can't fathom how am I going to compete with the world's greatest and I cannot even get through a walk. Wow.

And so it was a very humbling um beginning to the journey back. You are still in negotiations with Nike in two thousand nineteen. Wes is you are very much involved with these conversations with Nike. And I guess They're not budging. They're not going anywhere, right? Wes, wh what do you remember about Nike Nike just wouldn't move on their

Offer. No, they weren't. They weren't moving. You know, and I think that

One of the things that I would always try to do is let me put myself in their position. How would I look at this if I had their job instead of mine? And it was, you know. You can do what feels right and fair. Or

you can potentially get a top athlete for a whole lot less. It wasn't that they didn't think she deserved more money, um, or that they didn't have more money to give her. It was on their end a smart business decision. They looked at her age and said You know. even if she goes and she can win more medals.

She's got four more years left. Is another company gonna spend this kind of money and then also try to rebrand her? No, we don't think so. Um, and there was an angle of this where We started to really fight for maternal protection. And it was because we said to them, you know, you're already offering her 70% less. We were able to get it from seventy percent less to sixty percent less. So

Clearly you can see how great my negotiating skills were. Um so we get it to sixty percent less. You know, and then we go through this process of, you know, disclosing the pregnancy to them. And for us it was really important. That We had the offer on paper. We wanted that in writing, but we were never

For us just Morally we felt like it wasn't right to sign that contract. without telling them that she was pregnant. And if they decide They don't want you because you're pregnant after they already offered you a contract.

then they can deal with whatever the consequences of that are. But we'll give them the out. We'll tell them. We're not going to sign it and then tell them after the fact. So we told them she was pregnant, but we had the offer in writing. If they wanted to pull out, they could have pulled out. Um But then What we had to address next was

the way that these contracts are set up, you get a bonus if you win a medal, you get a reduction if you don't win a medal. Right. So here was gonna be Allison, you know, ten months after Giving birth. And she would need to go. To the world championships. she would need to win a medal. And if she didn't

She'd get hit another twenty five percent. Um, and for us, that's where it was just like, No. That doesn't work. Like that's the line in the sand where that's that's not okay. And that's not okay for Allison, but that's not okay for any woman. She's

Having a baby. Yeah. Alright. May twenty second, twenty nineteen. You

Kinda dropped a bomb. on and the world. Um you decided to write an op ed in the New York Times about this experience of being pregnant while negotiating a a contract with Nike and I guess it came out of

Stories of other women athletes who are also Yeah. And essentially made the point that like, you know, Nike talks about Women's Empowerment and

Markets to girls and But but when it when it comes time for the rubber, you know, to meet the road here, like they don't They're not supporting female athletes who become moms. Yeah. So what originally happened was I had two teammates who were working on the story with the New York Times and West was actually involved in it because, you know, he had

done all these negotiations and So he was working kind of like anonymously with them and we were kind of sharing different things. And the idea was just that that's what that was gonna be, you know, it was never going to attach a name to it. It was just that. And then The women's world cup was coming up. And I remember like this very vividly. I was sitting in Cameron's nursery and

I get a call from Wes and he has he's like Don't shoot the messenger, but Nike wants to know if they can use your image. In this campaign.

The women's world cup. And literally that was the moment that that just changed everything. Cause I was just like What like you know, like everything I had been through, you know, and then the birth experience and I'm fighting my way back to get in shape and just like all of these things and I knew he was working on the story and I was just like Okay.

I need to be a part of the story and we have to do this. We have to put our names to this. And I looked at my daughter. Like that was the reason why, because I wasn't gonna let Cameron in her generation deal with the same thing. And at that point it was kind of like if I lose everything, then that will just be what it is because This has to come out. Wes, when Alison told you she wanted to do this,

athletic company in the world. How did you respond? Were you Or you Immediately supportive or was a part of you nervous?

No, I was really supportive. Um And now I say it in a really calm way, like I was You know there were there were definitely racing thoughts, but I remember I called up um the editor at the New York Times and

where where I live you lose cell service um from the house until you get like down the hill. And I remember I I called her at the house and I said, All right, let's go and then Got in the car, I drove down the hill. When I got down the hill,

Maybe three minutes. Um, I had an email. From Nike. And It was

No words. Just A contract. That they sent via DocuSign. And

I called the New York Times. Um editor. And I said, Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. Did you already did you already publish it? They just sent me a contract. And I think like in that moment

And you know how Alison remembers her moment of sitting in the nursery with Cameron, I remember for me pulling off to the side of the road. shaking as I'm holding my phone. going through and looking at the contract and saying like They had to have changed it. And I go through and I read through the first time.

Don't see any changes. I read through again, don't see any changes. I'm on my phone. I'm trying to figure out how do I search the document so I can just do like a keyword search to just search for pregnant. Pregnancy. baby maternity.

I'm just not seeing it. I read through probably about eleven times. And I just didn't see it anywhere. And I was like, I have to be missing it. There's no way. I just got the same contract. Why would they send it? What's the what are the chances, you know? And I called the editor back and I was like, I read through it 11 times. There's nothing any different. And she was like, Well, how do you feel? And I was like, Yeah.

Let's go. Like go ahead and publish it. And put my phone away and you know. drove away and remember thinking like What are we doing? Um But

There was still this calm. I think I remember calling my dad. And just telling him, you know, here's where it's at. And he just said like You can be proud of this. This is the right thing. And um kinda held on to that. And um Yeah.

And then we We let it out to the world and And I remember seeing the New York Times news alert come through. And just Like

That moment was It was terrifying, but it was also I don't think I've ever been more proud of anything that that Allison has ever done or that I've ever been able to do with her. More from Wes and Alice and Felix about how their experience with Nike inspired them to start their own footwear company.

Sish. Which makes shoes specifically designed. Women's feet. Stay with us, you're listening to how I built this lab. Welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm talking with former Olympic track star Allison Felix and her brother and business partner, Wes. Alright, so you released this op-ed in the New York Times, which detail your experience with Nike, and that was the moment that you

probably didn't realize it quite yet, but that was a moment that would of course change the trajectory for both of you, right? Leading you from this business model that was about endorsements and sponsorships to a totally different model where you would do your own thing. You would actually make a product and that product would be shoes. At this point, Alison, you were p planning to be in the Tokyo Olympics in twenty twenty, which of course happened in twenty twenty one. Obviously Nike was not gonna be your sponsor. Um And

Tell me how the two of you started to think about Wait a minute. Why don't we just make our own shoe? Like why do we actually need a Nike or Adidas? On

On Allison's feet. Like Why not make it ourselves? Yeah, it started kind of with First I got a a new athletic Apparel sponsor. With Athleta.

With Athleta, yeah. They actually they had never sponsored an athlete before. They read the op-ed and they were just like, Let's just have a conversation and and see where it goes. And but I would say that that relationship. really changed my mindset because I I felt like they empower me. They wanted to celebrate me as an athlete, but also as a mother and um support the advocacy work that I had started to do. And so it was like just this different experience. And so

That set us off in the path of Okay, let's try to find this in a footwear company. Like I love how this feels. It makes me feel good. At this point, I'm like, I see so much more value than just financial value. So let's focus in on this and let's find it. And so at this point I'm still competing. So I'm I'm wearing Athleta and I am actually wearing like Nike shoes and I would just like peel off the Nike side and That's kind of what we were doing. And then I'm talking to Wes after like we're doing this search of like trying to find, you know, this potential company.

And I just got to this place where I'm like I'm tired. Like I am so exhausted. Of asking these companies and like begging them. to see my worth and my value and it's like how am I in this place? You know, I'm I'm trying to compete for my fifth Olympic Games and I'm out here like hustling and grinding, like taking meetings and trying to sell myself to have like a shoe sponsor.

And Wes, he's he's always been the like the one with the big ideas and you know, the visionary, very like hopeful and optimistic. And I'm like very much so the opposite. And so we're having this conversation and he's just like Well Why don't we just like do this ourselves? I love that so much.

Wes How did the idea come to you? I mean, it it seems so so plainly obvious, but also so Insurmountable, a shoe, right? But But but of course that made perfect sense. How did you How'd you land on that idea?

Yeah, guy, this moment is probably gonna be, as I share this with you, what's gonna keep me single forever. But it was the pandemic. I was sitting there, I was building Legos. And I just I remember thinking like Building stuff. It's like so cool. Like I wonder what other stuff we could build. And um And that's how I kinda thought of it.

You know, was like Huh. I wonder if we could build a shoe. And um it wasn't a serious thought. I wasn't thinking about a business or anything like that. But then when Allison called and she kinda she speaks to that frustration. And at times that kind of gets me to like you're just you're being negative. Like There's hope here somewhere, but In my own frustration.

I said to her. Well why don't we just build our own? And you know, she's she says back. Like build our own shoe company? And like older brother, I double down and I'm like, Yeah, yeah, why don't we build our own shoe company?

And um and she's just kinda quiet. And then she comes back and she's just like well Yeah, put together a plan. And it was like um And I put my Lego's down.

And I I actually started thinking about it. And again, like i it's the beauty of building something is You don't quite know what you're building. You just start with the first step. Something I tell myself a lot and try to share with people is, you know, it's not about ten steps. There's just one step. ten times and I just thought through like what's the first step?

And I went back to her and told her, like, I think this is the first step. And she was down to take it. Well. Yeah. All right, so let's start with the

Nuts and bolts here. Um, you you know you want to do this. Um But first Allison's got the Olympics. And

you want to design a shoe and presumably you want the shoe ready in time so she can Running them in Tokyo. I mean, first of all You guys had some m sponsorship money, so did you have enough to at least finance like a prototype? Yeah, we were able to

Yeah, self funded and we said We knew that if we were gonna launch this, you know, it started with the shoe she runs in in the Olympics. Um and at that point we were just thinking if we make the shoe she can wear in the Olympics. We think other track kids, college kids, high school kids, they'll buy this. What a I mean, what an incredible platform, right? To to uh for runner to be

Wearing her own shoes. In the Olympics? Totally. We were like, Yeah, we we're gonna be able to sell like A thousand of these, or maybe like even five thousand. Like we're gonna be able to sell these shoes, you know, like and and I remember talking with um a developer that we found and And s and asking her, like, here's what we want to do, do you think it's possible? And she's like, I mean It's possible, but

But it's gonna be really hard. And I was like okay, but but also like how expensive is it gonna be? Because You know, during that whole fight. Allison didn't get paid for almost two years. You know, so there was there was fear and stress around is this the right thing to do? Is this a good use of of money? Are we just doing this'cause we're frustrated? Like Um, but we worked through the process and and got an idea of how much it could potentially cost, but

In that process, there was something that Tiffany Beers, the developer that we worked with said to us that changed it all. What'd you say? She was like Well

You know, shoes Are not made for women. And I think we're like, Oh, okay. What does that mean? Yeah, what does that really even mean? And I'm like, No, we've all been to like footlocker, like we see

We see what's that wall of shoes on that side, you know, the pinks and the all all of those ones. And she's like No, like they're not made for women. A shoe is made off of a a lass, which is a a mold of a foot, and it's

A man's foot. That has been used to make women's footwear. And that just like It took a while to sink in and then it just kinda like blew us away. We're like, well so

What is that wall? And Eventually we understood like that wall was just marketing. There's nothing different about them. And then that's that changed our whole course of how we were going about all of this. And that was because then all of a sudden that feeling that we felt there.

It mirrored exactly what Allison felt when she got that offer of seventy percent less. It was You have been so loyal to this company. And they're totally taking advantage of you. They're taking you for granted. And we looked at that. thought of that wall in footlocker of women's shoes by the major you know, footwear brands and we said if that's marketing

Women are coming in buying those shoes, not knowing they're men's shoes. They're buying those shoes because they believe they're women's. Um, and it it just helped us to see There was a much, much bigger Problem. And the bigger problem was that women were being overlooked by the brands they're most loyal to.

Yeah. The idea that all shoes are basically Designed from men's Feet. Is.

Just weird to me, right? Um And so this idea of building a shoe around a woman's foot. Some of shocking to imagine that that's that was revolutionary, right? I mean both of you sound like you were shocked when you discovered that. I mean, I had been a a runner for you know, eighteen some years at this time and I had no idea. And then

Um we learned that there were molds of like women's feet, right? Yeah, we learned that like, you know, as we talked with the last makers as we went to go and build shoes and And you know, we said, Okay, we have this idea, you know, and and what we're hearing is it's not out there, but we want to build a last based on women's feet. And the guy's like, Yeah, you want the model A J nine, whatever, whatever and I was like

Wait, what? You have it? And he was like, A last based on a woman's foot? I was like, Yeah. And he's like Yeah. Yeah. We've been

studying feet for the last hundred years. Like, yeah, we have a last based on a woman's foot. And you know, inside I'm like, Okay, well how did we miss this? The whole thing is crumbling. Like this was a stupid idea. And I was like, Well Who uses it? And he was like nobody. And I was like, Why would no one use it? And he was like, You know, probably money. And he's like, You'd be making two shoes. Instead of just one.

And I was like And we had still never made a shoe yet. So That kind of made sense to me.

If I have a business where I make a hundred million pairs of shoes, you're burning through molds and No one's asking you for a different shoe. Women aren't saying we're unhappy with our shoes, make one for me. Um,'cause they think they already have one for them. And they don't have anything to compare it to. They've never put on a shoe. Made for a woman.

So you you guys are fulmitted to building the spike shoe. for Allison to compete in the Olympics. But it it seems it so so com complicated and challenging. I mean, you obviously found the designers um and they were willing to sort of work with you on this and m I don't know, with to sort of the understanding that maybe they'd work with you on on on the on the project in a bigger way on on this shoe brand.

Yeah, I think like one of the things that we found where We had more friends at Nike than we realized. Um, and when that op ed came out. I think there were a lot of people who said Thank you so much.

Because I've had a hard experience and maybe my voice wasn't as loud, or maybe it didn't feel comfortable to speak out. There were a lot of people that That really respected what what we had done around the op ed.

And as we reached out to our developer, she was former Nike. She reached out to a designer who was also former Nike, who then said, Yeah, we're in They said, you know, we built Michael Johnson spike in nineteen ninety six, the most iconic spike. ever made, you know, we'd love to help. We we believe in what you're doing, what you're standing for, and You know, we worked with Mike Friton on this spike and You know, Mike was one of

Bill Bowerman's original proteges. You know, he was there in the shed with the waffle maker, like putting shoes together. He's this master pattern maker. And he said, Oh, this is exactly why we started Nike at the very beginning. It's lost its way, but this is why we started it. And um and he was like, I would love nothing more than to be a part of it. And so we were able to have the best in the world. um working on

this shoe and um You know, they They did it. And um and definitely delivered on an unbelievably iconic um shoe for

A woman and and the first shoe to win a gold medal. by an athlete who owns the brand. Till. Wow. So

You um last year I think you closed a series A round, eight million dollars. Um Athleta was an investor. Um and you now have two lines, the Seche one and the Seche two. you describe them as lifestyle shoes, so they're not designed necessarily for running, but you're designing a specific running shoe.

As well right now. Yeah, so our Seych one is lifestyle, you know, it's great for walking. It can do a work out really well. I mean I participate in all the wear testing and I like I go in on them. So it it is possible. But yeah, so excited. Like the shoe that obviously Has been

um I I I don't know if I should call it my baby because I actually have a baby, so I probably shouldn't say that, but just, you know, really What I'm passionate about is this running shoe and really giving women something that they haven't felt before. And not for the woman who is like trying to, you know, break the marathon world record because I just don't feel like That is every woman, but You know, the woman who is doing all the things. I'm I'm really excited to bring this into the world.

Yeah. You know, one of the smartest things that I mean In some ways it was the luckiest thing that happened to you that One of the smartest decisions you guys made is from a business perspective was

You depersonalized your business. Your business was built around Allison's ability to endorse and to win races. And now You've built a brand using Allison's expertise West your expertise. Yeah.

And a business that you know, can live beyond the two of you that that you've built. And that's what's most meaningful. Like I want this to be so much bigger than myself. It is about women deserving better and

That's our mission, like that's our purpose. And we are all so aligned by that. And it is, it should go so much further than just myself. And so now as I've transitioned from track and field, like right into this business that I I love and believe in. I love that it's centered around that. very core message. Yeah.

And West, what when you think about I mean You know, just two years ago, you're like, Let's make a shoe and your sister's like, What? And then now you've got a shoe and now you've got a brand. Um So I mean

Tell me. About the vision. I mean obviously this is so much of this is about women and creating products for women. Um When you think about what Seych will be in ten years

How would you describe it? Yeah. Um Ten years from now, I hope that Seish is a brand that that women feel really gets them. A brand that they are really proud of that they know sees them.

Um and works really hard to know them. We've talked a lot about how we celebrate women holistically. You know, we have a maternity returns policy where if you're a woman who whose foot changes size while you're pregnant. I can't imagine like all of a sudden waking up and my foot's a different size and now I need to throw out every shoe I ever had. So, you know, for us, I we feel like our contribution to you doing the most incredible thing on the face of this planet, we can send you another pair of shoes in your

In your new size. Um, so I hope that like we are a brand that can meet women exactly where they are for everything that they need from us. And if we can do that in footwear. Then we don't want to stop there. We want to ask women, what else is broken? What else are you realizing? Isn't made for you? And we want to do our best to look for. other things that aren't made for women. And then we want to show up and provide those products for women and and make sure that they continue to feel seen and known by us.

Wes and Alice and Felix, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. This was incredible. Hey, thanks so much for listening to how I built this lab. Please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at HowI Built This, and mine is at GuyRoz. And on Instagram, I'm at guy.ros. If you want to contact the team, our email address is hib. at id.wondery.com.

This episode was produced by Chris Massini with editing by John Isabella and research by Lauren Landau Einhorn. Our audio engineer was Alex Trewenskis. Our music was composed by Ramteen Arablui. Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Liz Metzger, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, and Kira Wakeem. Niva Grant is our supervising editor, Beth Donovan is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening.

To how I built this.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 3 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.