#443: David Yarrow on Art, Markets, Business, and Combining It All

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Check it out. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and gyms, this is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show where it is my job to interview and deconstruct world class performers to tease out how it is they do what they do and what you can possibly model emulate. or apply in your own lives. My guest today is David Yarrow, Y A R R O W. In his genre, David Yarrow is one of the world's Best selling fine art photographers I have.

And one of them is very, very heavy and sitting about Thirty feet away from me. Right now. Most recently, David has focused on capturing the animal and human worlds in fresh and creative ways, which is

probably an understatement. You just have to see some of these images. And this has really been partnered with or coalesced with philanthropy and conservation. Those have been two primary drivers behind his work. In 2019, charitable donations from the sale of David's images exceeded 2.5 million US. Yarrows Photography of Life on Earth.

has earned him a large and ever growing following among art collectors, and he is now represented by some of the top contemporary fine art galleries around the world. In the last two years, three of His works have sold for more than one hundred thousand dollars each at Sotheby's auctions in London, New York, and UBS. have also appointed David as their global ambassador. You can find all about David and see his work at DavidYarrow.photography.

You can see some of his amazing images on Instagram. At David Yarrow. That's D-A-V-I-D. Y A R R O W I highly recommend. Following the Facebook?

You can find Facebook dot com Forward slash David Yarrow Photography. And then on LinkedIn also David Yarrow, pretty easy to find. And without further ado. Please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with yet another guest who should have their own podcast and it'll be obvious why that is the case soon, namely

David. Yarrow. David, welcome to the show. It's very good to be here. It's an honor.

Likewise, I'm thrilled to connect. I have several of your large format. books of photography. They're both incredibly gorgeous and incredibly heavy. So in in quarantine, they're helpful for uh doing farmers carries. And uh It's part of because in sh in Scotland shoplifting is a problem. So the the heavier the book, the less chance they can actually make them. And and we'll get to the current day, but I thought we would start

Not necessarily at the beginning, but certainly some time ago. Could you please speak to What happened? to you or with respect to you in Mexico in nineteen eighty six. Sure. I I travelled uh to Mexico for the World Cup, uh in nineteen eighty six. I was

In my third year out of four at uh Edinburgh University. uh studying business studies and economics and uh my exams were Um Finished. Uh one week into the World Cup.

And the The day my for my final exam I I flew to Mexico City. I'd never actually even been to America before. I was working Um for a very modest magazine in Scotland that covers Scottish football, which um almost by definition of very limited circulation. But the the one benefit the one benefit of uh of um having that uh

FIFA in those days would be much more accommodating with regard to accreditation. And just for the Yanks in our crowd because uh The FIFA is like the NFL for football as in actually using your foot football. Please continue.

And it and it's uh uh unlike the uh the NFL, it's been characterized by blazing corruption for many years, which you're fine the NFL hasn't. But putting that to one it's like the IOC, but the IOC's been blatantly corrupt as well. But um this is before people uh knew that FIFA took bungs in order to to give world cups to places like uh Qatar uh and uh extent Russia. But it was nineteen eighty six. It was uh six years, six sorry, six months after the earthquake that have devastated uh Mexico City.

And uh I arrived. Uh As a Scottish fan, first and foremost, and and they always used to say that Scottish journalists are are really just fans with typewriters. Uh but I did have I did have an a crit I did have a press pass which Allowed me to

Go on to the pitch. of these games and and um the reality it was that I was uh twenty years old. Um I wasn't at all good. I I was I was very, very average. And also photographing Scotland became very, very difficult because uh the I really was much more interested in watching the game rather than taking photographs of it. And there was a moment when Scotland were playing Uruguay.

And um Uruguay had a players sent off in the first minute of the game, so Scotland had to just deat ten men to qualify to the uh the next round. They were managed at the time by Someone I'm sure m a lot of Americans would know, Alex Ferguson, who for many years uh managed Manchester United Sir Alec. Um

And there was a moment when um there was a Scottish centre forward who who missed An open goal. Uh And back in the times newspaper and I was working then for it for the London Times

Uh all they could see was the striker with his head in his hand. And my head also with Well, my head in my hands with my camera nowhere near and they thought well this guy Yarrow is really not he's not really focused on the football at all. I r Yeah. The games were a lot of them were played at midday or at three o'clock in the afternoon because of European TV time. And if you can imagine a high s uh high sun in Mexico

And maybe some African players or Latin American players, there's a great chance that you got very little facial detail because their faces were underexposed and then the top of their heads had a kind of like biblical halo on top of them. Um but these were the days In sports photography where In order to Get a moving figure in focus. You had to do a thing called

Follow focus. Uh, because autofocus hadn't been invented then. This is also in the days of of of film. And and follow focus basically meant that you moved the ring focusing rim of the camera. in tandem to m to the movement of the player. So if you had a player coming towards you

Like a hundred meter runner. you would try and get as many different pictures of him in focus You'd have to y move the focal rim manually. And it's a it's a trade, it's a skill. And I was crapping it, basically, which meant that the only good pictures I got were of the players lining up at the beginning of the match because they weren't moving too much. Um

Uh the w the FIFA had another rule that um If you're a repres if you're uh uh from a country that are qualified for for the tournament Every single one of the every single country that qualified for the tournament would be allowed one photographer on the pitch for the final. And uh Scotland obviously have been the first team to get knocked out. That tends to happen habitually. Uh and of course all the photographers that are on expense bills for the newspapers back home. had been sent home with Scotland.

And then they would just get their pitches through A P or Reuters or whatever. So I was Left as a twenty year old with a A press pass for the pitch on the World Cup final. Uh and I remember going to the Stadium at

Mi uh six o'clock in the morning. The game is at uh midday. And I bribed the Mexican guard with a bit of whiskey. And I send us some G mine. It's my one of my r rules of the thumb to take whiskey everywhere, but Um I said, Do you mind if I walk from Onto the pitch.

And uh In those days, the Azteca They had a Monday night football there not too long ago, but the Aztec held around a hundred and twenty thousand people. And he allowed me just to walk from One goal.

To the other. Uh. And I can see my d my footprints in the Jew in the ground. There's a it was a bit of an epiphany for me. I felt Well, I'm doing this at twenty. This has surely got to be A big part of my life. And you'll know the

Uh Mark Twain where he says the two most important days in a person's life are the the day they're born, the day they find out why. And that was my first inkling that it might be uh but decent part of my life. The problem was I was fairly shit as a photographer, which I think was very integral to becoming part of part of my life. I was lucky. I had a good final. Um I was in the right position for the first Argentinian goal. And then when um

Maradona's Argentina one. Uh the most extraordinary thing happened uh in the Probably about twenty or thirty thousand. Argentinians came onto the pitch. And it was just a scrum.

I had a big I had two lenses and two cameras, like most photographers in those days, you'd have one big lens recovering the midfield area and then a a shorter lens recovering the the the the goal mouth areas. Uh and I thought if I take my wide angle lens and try and get as close to Maradona as possible, I might get a picture, but it's gonna in order to be nimble, I'm gonna have to leave that four hundred, two point eight lands in in the Goldmuth. Um And I just took the split decision at the time that a lot of photographers weren't, given the number of Argentinians coming onto the pitch.

That it was a gamble worth taking. I thought well you know if I lose the equipment. As long as I've got close to Maradona's it's the right call, and as it turn out, I got Dead close to him, dead onto him, just as He was lifted on the another players' shoulders and with a kind of um biblical

narrative behind of the stadium and thousands of people. He looked right in my eyes with the with the World Cup and Of course th th those were those are the days in film, so you didn't know what you'd got. You didn't know whether you got it sharp. You didn't know whether you got it in um the the the lighting right. But I went back to the net uh where I'd left my Seven thousand, which was a lot of money in those days, seven thousand dollars, seven thousand dollars of equipment. And there was my lens and and my camera. And I've always had a a bit of an affinity for Argentinians, uh ever since that that day that they were far more interested in celebrating than ever thinking about making some equipment behind the the goal. And the picture the picture was pitcher really kinda saved my

Bacon from the whole tournament. It was um Phot photography is is about those one or two big pictures. It's not um to me about portfolios of hundreds and thank goodness because I really didn't uh then. Um and um it led to It led to doing an Olympics the next year I still had to finish my My studying.

Uh and there was a lovely moment I was flying uh over to LA about um I don't know, about six months ago, and and the Maradona movie, you know, directed by the same guy that did the s the Urtin Santa movie. And Amy Wine. Um I thought I should watch this. And about two thirds of the way through the movie, which is excellent.

Um My picture came on my my um T V screen in front of me. And I couldn't believe it. And I I don't know about you, but I always get quite emotional on planes. I don't know what it is about altitude and emotion. I say This is my bloody photograph. That's my photograph of Mar Maradona. So I I pressed for the stewardess because I didn't have anyone to talk to about it and she came over expected. I said. That's my picture of Maradona.

And she's going, There's a nutter in J twenty one, there's a nutter in J twenty one. Cut'em off. No more Scotch. Uh, don't land in Halifax just yet. So we luckily we didn't land in Halifax and I did have to explain to her that I was a photographer and that was that was my picture. But I was hoping to actually go down to BA and See Maradona. Um and I still Um

very much hope to do that when um the current crisis is over. It would be quite special to to meet him and um he's got the picture he knows obviously knows of the picture and and um And reminisce of uh when he was the the greatest player in the world. Amazing. So I I wanna I want to add some color for Perhaps the Americans or even just non-Argentines who are listening. So Maradona, M A R A D O N A

is a demigod in Argentina. It is hard to overstate how much of a cultural fixture he is, even to this day. And he is certainly decades past his his prime in playing his His photographs are everywhere. There are murals of him. If you were to take

For the US, let's ch just say pick your favorite team sport, basketball, football. football meaning American football. If you were to take the most popular, say ten players of the last decade and wrap them into one person. That would be Maradona to Argentines. And they take their their football very, very seriously when I was living there in two thousand forgot about this. Yeah, you you're a Tanger dance, you're a champion Tanger dance. A long time ago. This is previous lifetime, but living in Argentina, one of the most terrified moments that I had

was waking up in my apartment building and thinking that the entire building was on fire because people were screaming their faces off at Something like nine in the morning. I couldn't recall. And it was because The World Cup was on television. And Argentina scored a goal and they went completely berserk. Uh you can you can pretty much track the morale of the country.

And probably the GDP based on soccer results. They take it so seriously, it is it is hard to overstate. Absolutely. And of course your world and his world. Collided because The home of Tango was Boca, wasn't it? B the Boca of Buenos Aires. And he played for he played for Boca Juniors, which uh is one of the two great famous football clubs in the in the big capital. That's right. And Bocker Bocker Jr. fans are very partisan.

He also I mean he he had a habit of playing for clubs in cities that are renowned for wearing it on their sleeve and and for many years he played in Naples in in Napoli and Italy. And there was a he was people would in in in in Napoli they would have two pictures Uh Above their bed they would have Jesus Christ and Diego Maradona. And

When the World Cup was in Italy. Two world cups. Um The the planners hadn't done a good job because

Italy. Matt. Argentina. In the semi final. In Napoli.

And that for most Neapolitans constituted an enormous dilemma. Because who are they gonna support? Were they gonna support their their home country? Or were they gonna support the Um

There's some. And uh the person that uh revitalized the city. And seventy five percent of the people in the stadium that were Italian Supported Argentina. That's amazing. I didn't did not know that. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What an incredible story. I don't mean to interrupt, but I uh I I want to ask you what you learned

From that experience. If if anything, what did that what did you take from that experience After that photograph. hit the wires, went everywhere. W what What did you take from that or what impression did that make on you? Uh well to begin with I was just

happy that it saved my bacon because It had diverted people's attention away th from the fact that ninety five percent of the pictures uh taken of the other matches were out of focus. So it w it was In many ways. It was um It was the outlier. Um

But It gave me a chance. And Uh a lot of these uh self help books. Uh and and and your

Books are at a higher grade than the majority of them, but there is a lot to be said. For Um if the old idea that if you're the smartest person in the room, get out of the room. So whatever the polar extreme From being the smartest person in the room was. I was at that polar extreme in Mexico. I was I was the worst photographer um of the British

Press core. And that uh is good because that means that if you've got any Sense of the Self pride the only way's up.

Um And I just went back and practiced and and tried to get better at the things that I wasn't Good at. Um I think there's a lot to be said in photography, the fact the older older you get Uh the better you should be as a photographer.

The the f the first thousand pictures you take will be your worst thousand pictures. That was certainly true of me. And um the following year I did uh I just continued to work. Uh uh Quite a bit in skiing. Skiing was easier to photograph because

If you're doing the men's downhill, whether it be Kitspo or uh the the Larbaughorn and or Aspen and or Lake Placid or wherever it might be. You can pre focus on a gate. And then wait for that skier to come round the gate. So there there are still lots of difficulties in it.

party skiing down and I always remember trying to photograph the the toughest men's downhill in the world, which is the Hanum Kalm and Kitspool. And the the the story In Kittspool in Austria. Oh sorry, didn't recognize Kittsbull. Got it. It's my Scottish accent. But you you do you and it was the days when You had some amazing skiers. Um and then you had the crazy Canots, um, you know, the the Rob Boyds, the Podorsky's Ken Reads

And you yourself, you had Bill Johnson, of course, won Olympic gold as well. And they were all crazy mad good scares. But th that first stretch in Kittsbull It's like the white cliffs of Dover are stacked on top of each other. And if you're trying to Side step down. Inside the ropes.

With twenty thousand. Austrians outside the ropes going, look at that British idiot. He doesn't know how to ski. And you got your long lens around your uh neck and you're trying to sidestep that. And you take one bad move and then you're at the bottom. In a heap.

So you you're um Getting to be in a position to take a photograph is part of the challenge in the first place. But I did uh It was in the golden era of Swiss skiing. And uh where there were the men's And the women's downhill and Slalom was dominated by the Swiss.

Uh and I got b a bit better at Photographing. skiing and then I got the offer to photograph the Olympics. In nineteen eighty eight, uh, and that was in

Calgary in Alberta. Um those Olympics were Remember for two things. Firstly, one of the most beautiful women ever to ice skate called Catherine Offitt. So that's

what most of the photographers that were good were given to do to spend the evenings photographing Katharina Vitt dancing around an ice ice state which ice rink which is not a bad way to spend the the evening in in in nineteen eighty eight. Um the other thing it was remembered for uh was that Britain had the world's worst ski jumper called Eddie the Eagle. And he he was uh Uh so they gave that to me because they thought, Well, that's a good pair up. We'll get Yarrow to photograph Eddie the Eagle. And of course, Eddie the Eagle they they had a film about him as well quite recently, and and uh They did. They didn't know So I I um

I enjoy Calgary. Um And but I had my moment there where I um In those days the Olympics would be sponsored, there'd be lots of sponsors, but two of the key sponsors would be Kodak.

and Fuji. That kinda dates me. Uh, because we were still working on film. And at the end of the day you'd go to these enormous labs that would be sent up sponsored uh by the by um Fijian Kodak. And that you'd hand in all your thirty five mil film, you'd hang around for three hours. And then you get them back and then you'd war them to whoever you're warring them to.

And I I remember so vividly then that Worrying that No matter how hard I was trying to get a different type of picture. That I would go around the editing room because it was there's degree is

Photography press photography is actually quite collegiate. In that everyone tends to try and help each other. Certainly at the top. At the bottom there's a there's a maybe people are in a hurry and then the people that are insecure can be a little bit But I'm sure it's the same in every industry. Um but you'd I would see too many photographs.

That were the same. And it worried me. With my very limited understanding of economics from my schooling. The how on earth.

Could you have a profession that would evolve If there was just so much supply of what you were doing. You'd go and try and get a different photograph of a bobsleigh coming down the bobsleigh track. And then before you knew it.

There were twenty five German photographers. Always watch the Germans. They're very good. So there'd be twenty five of German photographers working for Stern or whatever. They would have Exactly the same or a better image. And I came home from that Olympics full of Um

stories and I'd love being I love the glamour of it all and being where the world was focused to be about men's downhill with the world watching it was hugely exciting. But I just worried About what it was all about, what my craft, what I was what was I trying to do. I was just getting another picture That perhaps the world didn't need.

There was something else. Tim the Concern me that I am I think a lot of artists are insecure.

And I'm insecure. Um, it manifests itself in In lots of different ways. I think a lot of people would see me as not having one ounce of insecurity, but I I I do I also and I worry about uh things that I probably shouldn't do. But I had a problem that There was no one there in the photography world. That were twenty years older than me, or twenty five years older than me that I looked up to and I said

I really want to be That man when I'm older. I that's what I really want to I want to be him. There was no g guiding light, and so that's not meant to be disrespectful to any of these individuals who are great fun in the evenings most of the time. But A lot of them had fairly dysfunctional lives and didn't

I didn't really see where the end game was. They were they were they were pressmen. They were working for either big newspapers or in those days, of course, Sports Illustrated was so much of a bigger magazine than it is now, uh regrettably. But I didn't see many people that that Were Um set a goal for me to try and attain in terms of getting um uh job affirmation, getting better at what they're doing, um, really enjoying their life and and and uh taking pleasure from it. There was

I think quite a lot of Fairly unhappy pressman and on on tour. Uh I I uh I I remember coming back from

That's Olympics. And I had two job offers. Because I've finished my I graduated.

And the two job offers were the identical salary. There was a job offer of What would equate now to twenty thousand dollars? um to work for Um what is now Getty images. I wish you'll be familiar with uh

And then there was an offer of Twenty thousand. To work for Nat West Bank. And It does.

enormous surprise of people uh Getty and Um but to the Profound delight of my parents. I should not West Bank. I think they're both nearly bust now, by the way. I think Getty's really well been bought back by the family because they had to buy it back after the the private equity pass to parcel, but and and uh Nat West is certainly bust.

Why did you choose Nat West and Banking? 'Cause everyone else was doing it, and I'd watched Wall Street, and I thought Gordon Gecko and Bud Fox were super cool. And uh it was just it's just and it was inside. It was it was no it was wasn't like minus twenty five in Caril, it just seemed like what everyone else was doing. Way back in nineteen eighty eight. It's the big bang had happened and uh in uh in the UK that was when there was a consolidation of the whole broken industry.

And Oliver Stone had produced Wall Street. uh about the about nineteen eighty five, that year of nineteen eighty five. Um and the books we read were books like Barbarians of the gates and Large. Which is a fantastic book, as an aside.

It's a great way. And uh It was R Nabisco, wasn't it? And then um Michael uh Michael Lewis, who just a superb writer just brings it home and I think Lars Perker were about the the dealing room floor at Salamon Brothers. It was uh it was almost like the Bible if you were whether you I I I'm sure it's true in America as well, if you've been at uh Harvard or Princeton or MIT and I was not at a Ivy League college like that, but Edinburgh University was a was a certainly a good platform for people building a career in those days.

uh in the UK. And um It just seemed the normal thing to do. I I'll never forget a conversation with my father who I had a difficult relationship. He was a kind of patriarchal um Edwardian character that That was just the way he was. He didn't mean it, he just that's the way he was of that old school Downton Abbey.

Type generation. that would never express words like love and uh congratulations or w whatever, it'd be very difficult to get a to get that kind of Appreciation out of him. And I remember him saying to to uh to me, he said, uh David, you should go into banking because It's uh

robust, honourable profession. Whereas Photography. It's just A hobby. And it kind of dates the conversation that

Anyone can say that because it says well that must have been in the eighties when someone said that. And my dad was a he was a He was industrialist, but he was also chairman of a bank in a kind of ambassadorial way. What does that mean? Um I think that um Your banking system.

and our banking system are are very different in the if you look at Right now, if you look at the big The senior banks. The the chairman of The banks.

um that are being interviewed right now during this meltdown in in financial markets and and uh talk of um depression. They are entirely fluid in the language of collateralized debt obligations and credit default swallows. If you're a chairman of a British bank You just have to be familiar with

um opening an envelope and opening an office and and my father's role was very much more uh there's a ceremony today, uh someone's got their fifty year, um, give them a watch. They've been working fifty years. I don't mean s sound that disrespectfully, but the the chairman Oh. American banks. They've got an executive role and they've got to understand exactly what's going on in terms of their w risk rated assets.

and the risk portfolio of those assets. Um, whereas in in the UK Uh there was a period where you there were a lot of banks and you could have a figure at the helm that was just there to add a little bit of grey hair and gravitas without having a fucking clue what's going on. Got my Homework.

Done correctly, your your father Was involved with banking, among other things. Your He was industrialist. So he's an industrialist. Yarrow ship builders.

And then he had the banking involvement. Your mother was an artist. You end up At After watching Gordon Gecko reading Barbarians at the Gate, Liars Poker, all great reads. Barbarians at the Gate for those people who don't want to read a book right now, also made into a fairly entertaining movie. You enter the the banking world in part because it is the normal thing to do, but also because it was I would imagine at the time, based on the stories told in these books, uh

and shown on the big screen. Quite exciting. What what did you learn In banking. That informed

Your later exploration of photography, if anything. I I learned so much. Yeah. I learned failure, humility.

Um Surrounded myself with bright people. Um And I made a lot of friends. And I think you I encourage younger people these days to remember that

the friendships and and uh the contact, the people you can call. Are so important. Particularly at times like this when You need to be calling people and need to have a degree of contextuality. Um You're right, in in in in nineteen eighty eight.

going into a dealing room, whether it be a Salomon's dealing room, or in my case it was a a an investment bank called Nat West Markets. Having five hundred people in one room. Uh was incredibly exciting. Uh You didn't again, you didn't really have a clue what was going on and someone else was paying

For you to learn. Um I um I moved to America for a while. And when I was working in

Uh Wall Street. I got to meet. Um Some of the f some of the first hedge fund managers. Some of them are in Boston, some of them are in New York.

And I thought this is a kinda cool job. You actually you're the guy that can sit around and not have to make calls the whole time, but maybe be slightly more cerebral. Um, spend a bit of more time uh just doing your own research. And be judged by the quality. of your decisions, not the quantity of your calls. Um

The problem is that No one wanted to harm me as a headphone manager, but I thought uh in about nineteen it was about nineteen ninety five, ninety six I um I left the investment bank And set up

My own for management business. Uh I uh I was wasn't married. and didn't have any obligations and I thought Floyd don't do it now, I never will. And the idea of

Continuing to be that Bud Fox. And plenty of six figure numbers on that zip file kind of call. I'd I'd I'd done that for eight years, and for most people it's enough. It's a that's a tough job, I do feel and the c the job is slightly anachronistic now, but that job of being your kind of Bud Fox Salesman.

Um and we'll we'll come on to Jordan Belford because I spent quite a bit of time with him over the last twelve months, but it was a slightly uh slightly more elevated uh phone call than Jordan. Yeah, yeah. Um So I I set up my own uh fund and I didn't really know Uh I was thirty.

Uh one at the time. And Uh the There weren't there were a few things I had to negotiate. Um in in the markets, but it wasn't that demanding. There was the there was the big run in tech stocks.

That you remember in the in the Towards the tail end of the nineteen nineties, nineteen ninety eight, nineteen, ninety nine. The Icarus the Icarus flying too close to the sun years. Yeah. And and then the big Scandinavian telephony stocks, the Nokia's, the Ericssons, and then there was the whole Y2K turn of the millennium. the situation.

Oh yeah. I often say to people if you get uh If you set up a business on Monday. And you get married on a Tuesday, metaphorically.

Um A lot of things are gonna have to go right. in your life for that decision making crammed into one kind of week the albeit wasn't. But I I kinda set up a business on Monday I kind of got married on a Tuesday. Um did you get married?

Uh well, I I g I did get married, but it wasn't on the Tuesday, but there wasn't a huge gap between the two. You mean married Married uh um Uh my girlfriend. And got it. We uh we uh so we were um And in two thousand, uh We uh

We had uh She had uh our first daughter, um and Everyone looked at at me and said, Bloody hell, Yara, you've not done bad. You've got you've got a got a lovely young family. You've got your own business. And then in uh Uh she was she was barely one one year old. We went over to the America

Uh for a wedding. In September two thousand and one. And at the end of the wedding we said, Well tell you what, why don't we Uh rather than going back.

uh to the UK. Why don't we just go On a little bit of a US road trip. And on the Tuesday morning I was getting ready. And I was just in a in uh the the lobby of the hotel. When I saw the first plane.

Uh go in. Or or the the what looks like the the the the repercussions of the first plane going in. And of course Because it was uh two fifteen or uh sort of five to two uh European or British time.

Our markets were open. And I was running a very, very small pot of money um at that time, but it's I still had responsibility. I probably had about sixty or seventy investors. And I just It was just insane. I just didn't like what I saw on and markets would have been

Tough anyway, uh Ericsson, the Swedish uh mobile telephony company had warned the previous day. And also I was with My wife and I was on a road trip in America and I thought You know what, this just Doesn't look good. And because I'd been I'd read all the books.

Um, I just thought why don't why don't I just take my risk off? And because markets were open. So this is nine eleven. This is on the day of nine eleven. Uh this is on the day and um So by the time

The second plane went in. We'd Cleared. Uh the deck's. For every client that we had of

Every holding that we had, I think Goldman Sachs, I think it was in those days, was still still now, but they were looking after me. They sold everything that we had. Um and The Mar if you go back to those whatever they were, nineteen minutes or eighteen minutes between The two planes. And um when one of the C N B C anchors died two or three years ago, Mark Holmes, they played his I thought extraordinary performance on side of incredibly professional.

Of those nineteen, twenty minutes. And what I find still extraordinary was that It was really only It two minutes before The second plane went in.

That's things became the fur there was no impact on the markets of the first plane going in. Absolutely none at all, because people just assumed it was an accident. And the whole I I'm sure you remember the visuals of that hole on the on the tar. It just seemed a bloody big hole. For I'm not trying to be s you know, Monday morning quarterback, but I I took the decision Um it was there was no skill in it, it was just instinct.

So After The the the whole denument of nine eleven and and whatever. I w went from being someone that was seen to be a nobody. I hasten to add we didn't make any money from

This We just avoided our clients losing any money. So when they got their returns For the month of September. uh in the post.

their return was not point three percent. Whereas Of course a lot of people had lost fifteen, twenty percent of of of their money. And that's why the book

Uh. That seemed to leads book full by randomness. Plays a big role in my thought processes. I I was just lucky. But I went from Running a small amount of money.

To employing forty five people. to running a billion dollars um and Over what period of time did that did that happen? About about six months. And six to six to nine months.

It was an The reality Tim was that I was not equipped for it. I I I was not equipped suddenly to be having Uh A wife.

A daughter. Forty five people, a billion dollars. Whereas One back two years ago. Two years before. I was just a kid with a dream.

And it was actually too much for me. And I couldn't cope because suddenly Everyone wo Wanted a little bit of My time.

Uh at home or in the office. And I had to I had a lot of stakeholders in my life. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing I do again now, but I'm more mature. I can Cope with it. But then I I just couldn't.

Uh. And I I just felt lonely, I was felt unhappy and I didn't know when the when the me time was. There was no real Time for me. And when when markets or your way when

Your fund is performing. Through luck or judgment. Uh those cracks can be papered over. uh in

Uh a cocktail of Oh. champagne and good food and wine and people playing up to you because you're the you're the guy. But of course as soon as their uh uh the performance deteriorates, which inevitably

It will from time to time. Um, those cracks become very conspicuous. And Yeah, my life kinda blew up. I I uh

My marriage didn't survive. Um I I probably took it out of myself quite a bit in the evenings. Um and What do you mean by that?

I would drink too much. Yeah. Um, and uh I would I think I'd leave it at that, but I I I it was not it w I don't think I was I wasn't a happy person that you go in the following day to um to face more hell. And with And also that if you if you do

And so many people do get divorced. Uh, sadly. Uh, but it it can it's it's it's about as big a test. uh as as you can have and unless there is someone the the other side and you fall in love s with somewhere else and I I hadn't

Um neither of us um Where there was no infidelity, it was just like ships in the night. Two people that were one was being a mother, which is the most important job in the world, and the other was being a depressed hedge fund manager w full of uh self inflated ideas of their own importance, uh potentially. And um something had to give and it and it gave And of course

If there is a little bit of money knocking around because of previous success, well then the lawyers can dig their teeth in and all hell breaks less and And uh the the um This was all this is I'm moving forward not a When the world really did start financially to implode, which was around

Two thousand and six with I think it was the investment bank bear's and then just uh continued to spiral downwards from there. And because uh I was Going through the k the kind of final

Parts of That divorce. I I was m I had a disposition to being cautious anyway. Uh I just couldn't maybe subconsciously My whole mindset was to be cynical and miserable.

Um so When uh And also Something's gotta be wrong. I mean Scott's uh this we're we're quite we're quite a savvy bunch. I think the the the the three oldest universities in the world Or Scottish from about fourteen fifty.

But in two thousand and seven. A nation of six million people, and we've got two of the top ten banks in the world. Uh that doesn't stack up. It stacks up we might have had three of the oldest universities and one of the worst football teams, but not two of the biggest banks in the world. And so I was I was very cautious about

about that. It just didn't stack up that these were where they were in terms of Three hundred years of Prudence a culture of prudence had gone to five years of a culture of building the balance sheet. Anyway, to cut a long story short

We got through two thousand and eight. Uh and I on the I think it was the eighth of December. I had a Christmas lunch with my team and said, Well listen You know, it's been a shitty time, but most people Um have had their bollocks put on a plate.

And we've lost Three or four percent of people's money. So we're gonna come out of this okay. And then for the Yanks, just uh subtitle Ballocks equals balls. Yeah, please continue. Yeah.

I'm quite enjoying this. Yeah. Please continue. Anyway, so I get this phone call. Um saying This guy Bernie Madoff. uh Made of Matoff has

Gold has handed himself over to the FBI in his biggest Ponzi scheme. And I go, Who's he? And they say, Well he's he's he runs a big hedge fund uh out of out of New York. I said, Well it won't affect us, silly idiot. Um bunch of crooks in this game. I knew I knew about a group of people called Fairfield Greenwich that were a feeder to him because

It had no impact on us. And how wrong was I because What I didn't know. Was that So much of the money that it got invested with Bernie

Made off. had also Invested with us. And when I set the fund up in nineteen ninety seven, the only people that are gonna put money with me were my dog and my sister. So

In nineteen ninety seven I said you can have your money back in a week's time. And I kept that road from nineteen ninety seven to two thousand. If you if you need your money, you can have it in a week. Oh. The next the next day.

I got redemptions over the next week. of six hundred million uh dollars. And that was it. That was That was it's just something that I was um Exposed to

There was an e exogenous variable. Effectively. To all intents and purposes. uh killed the business. And um You asked a question quite a long time ago. It might have been in a previous millennium, but you asked me the question, what what did you learn from investment uh from your time in banking?

I think the b the thing that I took away from it most was that I I must never again put myself in a position where um your your your work ethic can be totally undone. Bye. Uh

things be totally beyond your control. It's rather ironic I say this as the coronavirus is about to hit its peak in parts of Europe and to hit its peak in in America soon. Um because clearly that is an exogenous variable that means that right now what I do is is is is not something that people want to hear an awful lot about. Um But That they'll always remember that time. It it told me a lot of

Humility. I think if you're selling a product, you you and your career Have sold all sorts of things. And a a huge admiration for the polymath that that you are. I've really only sold two things. I've sold.

hedge funds and pictures of elephants. Now by and large. Yeah, there's a bit more to it than that, but please continue. Yeah. But by large.

One is quite an easy sell because you turn around to the guy that wants the picture of the elephant and say, That's always gonna be an elephant. It's not gonna you're not gonna wake up tomorrow morning and it's a giraffe. You're getting What you see. Whereas The whole concept of selling a product on the basis of future returns you cannot guarantee

I really struggled with. And I know I'm not alone. But the whole premis. Yeah. And the the word

Slightly You shouldn't really be selling Selling investment products. Is a very

Tricky. Compromise. It's a difficult thing to get right because you cannot make an aggressive sell'cause you cannot guarantee. Um You've just gotta say

I promise to do my best. I promise to try and exercise maximum judgment, try not to panic, and I'm gonna panic, I'll panic early, and I'll show total integrity at all times. I don't think you can do more than that. Um But

It I think it's a tough I have huge admiration. For the people that do it well. Yesterday on your on your C M B show one of your icons in headphone management, uh, Paul Tudor Jones spoke and I listened, I wrote to him afterwards, I listened And so you could hear a pin drop in in my living room for half an hour and he was so precise.

Uh. Passionate when he needed to be passionate, dispassionate when he needed to be dispassionate, but all the time. Entirely considered. And Uh but he's the exception.

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Get honey for free at joinhoney.com slash Tim. That's join honey dot com slash Tim. I So I can't not go down this rabbit hole for just a second since you mentioned uh

P T J There's some uh there's also a great documentary on his early days. If people can track it down. I can't recall the the name of it right now, but uh really sharp guy. Uh and Well, I'll I'll leave it at that for now, but you know much better than I Uh, it just so happens that Two of the most

successful photographers I know. Both have backgrounds. In uh Finance. You?

And Brandon Stanton, who created Humans of New York. And uh the That's that's not always the case. I also know Chase Jarvis and a few others who do not have finance or banking backgrounds. Yeah, but But You

In this Current set of world circumstances. Uh In lieu of going outside and photographing elephants and so on, since it's uh difficult to do that at the moment. I would imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, but have have probably been

unable to escape the temptation to put your investor slash trader hat on, at least in observing world events. So Paul Teter Jones has his perspective, which as as you noted. can be seen on CNBC on the web. There's a two minute video. There's a longer interview with him. Uh he is reasonably optimistic. It's hard to know uh how much of that is informed by

what his current book looks like or anything else, but uh I I I happen to believe he's a pretty good guy overall. Um and Uh What do you think the world looks like? In uh a month, three months, six months, I know I'm asking you to kind of look into a crystal ball or throw turtle shells and

So on and so forth. But if you had to speculate. What do you what do you think? things look like, whether um whether referring to markets, economies, or otherwise. But what what is your view of the world And what do you see coming? I've um gotta be very, very careful that I don't become an instant uh expert in viruses because we've seen so many of those get airtime uh recently.

Uh the first thing I'd say uh without wanting to Copy what Paul said. is that we are at the end. From a financial markets perspective, uh, we're coming to the end of the first quarter, and that always means that Uh.

Bizar things happen. The fact that The Down. Should have his biggest run. since nineteen thirty three, at the very time that New York is being considered the epicenter

of this virus. If you're looking from another planet, you really would think the humans are quite mad that those two things should happen simultaneously. And I'm sure the history books will look at what's happened over the last Week. It's been a historic week. Following.

A historic week and next week will be a historic week. And just for timing, so we Just show where we're frozen in the amber here. We're recording this on Friday, March twenty seventh. Please continue. So the first thing I'd say is that uh

I I am following it. I want to be an optimist. I want to get out and photograph. I want to go out and see people. I want to come back to America. I want to go to Africa. Couple of things that I I'm concerned about and and Paul touched on one. Uh Africa I'm very concerned about. I spend a lot of time in East Africa. A lot of people turn around to me and say, David, you spend you spend c quite a bit of your year in Africa. You must love Africa. I turn round, slight dispersing, I say I hate Africa, I said it's the most corrupt continent in the world for a start. It's four continents wrapped into one whether it be the

Arabic North, the oldish west, colonial east, or subsaharan Africa. And the one thing that unites those four subcontinents within the continent is they're all corrupt from top to bottom. Uh. That corruption and lack of infrastructure is gonna be laid very bare. in the next uh two or three months, I You take some of the the townships in

Johannesburg. goodness knows what's gonna happen. I I see the made a lockdown today, but uh you worry about um the spread. You just you've got to kind of assume that uh whether you're in Nairobi or Dar Salaam or Johannesburg or Lusaka Yeah. the whole the whole population's gonna have it. That you just gotta work on that basis the idea of um human distancing and townships, I think you're mutually exclusive. So you w you worry about that.

Mm. America is uh In many ways the right Country for uh this to be uh the epicenter for it to be the epicenter because your country time and time again

has found a way out of things and that can do mentality and ethos. It's also very good for entertainment factors because the one the the one The one thing I family all do I just love it when when uh I I'm I don't do politics, but the your your your president's uh press conferences are a lot of fun because when the he's asked a question You you wouldn't tolerate him on your show, Tim, because if he's asked a question He will he will take

The subject matter. And then give his personal experience of the subject matter. So Yesterday when he's asked about um when will insurance protection kick in for second tier restaurants. He then goes on some sort of Gettysburg address, except it's not about We the restaurants you get some really good meat and fish.

And then you just get one bad fish. And it ruins all the thirty good fish you've had, and you're going, Where does this come from? Because that wasn't what you're asked. But he just takes it as an opportunity just to let go on his own personal experiences with all the same adjects as some pronouns. But um entertainment away from it. I worry for New York. Um I was in the last American city I was in.

was New Orleans uh two weeks ago we had a show there and uh w that was about a week before the Martig uh week after the Mardi Gras and obviously Uh they're concerned about that sitting now. Um we're all fine. If I had to put My bet is as good or as bad as anyone else's the uh we've how can how can it be better than anyone else's absolutely not. I I fancy This is six months, and then the claw out the other side

We'll have many disappointments on the way. Um when this time yesterday or European uh stock markets. We're around about fifteen percent, sixteen percent.

Off. their moving average from uh twelve uh about twelve weeks ago. That seems far too high. No, the markets have been weak today, but that would be my my only comment is that Uh

Uh this strikes me if you were looking at it from another planet, This is a thirty to fifty percent off risk assets. Event. Until it's sorted. And uh you don't want to be short of your economy.

Uh and your economy, uh if we'd had this conversation two or three months ago. Your economy is quite extraordinary. Has been extraordinary. Um we benefit that's why we spend so much time there. We We If you take The second city

in in Great Britain for Luxury spend. Let's imagine you're Tom Ford. And Tom Ford wants to of a new store. In

The UK. But he's got London, so he said London's fine. But where are we gonna go outside London? And he thinks well maybe should we go to Manchester, should we go to Edinburgh? Should we go to Leeds? Maybe Glasgow.

But then he's probably a bit stuck after that. No. And no one knows what the answer is, what that second city should be. What we think Is

In Below the forty eighth. There are thirty seven cities. In America. That will be stronger.

than our second city in the UK. And that just shows The strength and breadth of your economy which which is gonna be tested. In the short term. That that that's for sure. Um and uh Uh I I think

I slightly agree with what Paul said yesterday that You can see At some stage in the next couple of weeks. Now that the Fed have played their cards. Um

That the lows might be retested. But what we do know from the last three days Is There's nothing like a big bear short squeeze and the speed of that that rise in the speed of that rise in the markets. You know there are a lot of people that are short, the shortest market. So

I think in a year's time. Um the markets will be higher than where they are now. But we're all gonna have to go through Um cutting

for whatever your job is, w whether you're running um Do what you do, you do what I do. The next twelve months are gonna be from a purely cash generation perspective, there's so many other parts to life As you try and instill in us.

um but purely from a cash generating perspective. The next twelve are gonna be tough. One or two last questions on this and then we'll we'll get back to photography'cause I have a a lot of questions about that. And they're cut they're they're partially informed by All of this.

background and context. But if we Take one piece of Paul Tudor John's video. and look at it for a second. I'd love to get your opinion. How much since I don't know the UK markets at all. But how much of the pop that we're seeing in the US Or in the UK.

Do you think is accounted for by the front running? that he mentioned of uh I'm guessing index funds or other large institutionals who have to rebalance effectively, right? Or or forced purchasing. How do you how do you think about this this current jump? You have the you have the stimulus package thrown in as another variable and many other things, people covering shorts, who the hell knows? But How do you explain This

the the run up just in the last few days and uh at the end of this month, I suppose, more broadly. Yeah. Uh twenty percent. Is An awful lot to explain.

Uh By one variable alone it's gonna it's gonna have to be uh An amalgam an aggregation of variables. sort of self propagate themselves. Um but a short covering. um the viciousness of the moves, particularly in the last hour of trading. Um

Spank of Emotion. Um and machines. Such a bigger I'm saying too. totally contradictory things, but m a motion of machines

have one thing in common, which is not about considered decision making. It's not about it. Anyone turning around and saying. I think uh these numbers in New York are uh they're gonna pass too earlier or w whatever, or perhaps They're they're good they're their balance sheets.

aren't quite as weak on the worst case scenario in the final quarter of this year. It is panic buying. to rectify a situation that's not going to be comfortable going into the the year end. I when I um When I uh when I s got rid of my fund, actually someone took the fund over. And the person that uh Take uh

the fund over um was uh worked used to work for another great American fund manager, Julian Robertson, the the Tiger Fund manager to the old days. Yeah, quick quick side note, if people want to know Julian Robertson's story, the uh the book More Money Than God is effectively liar's poker for hedge funds and has has some great stories related to him. Please continue, sorry to interrupt. So all these tiger cubs were characters that were Errol Flynn would have played them all. They're all they're all they're all heroes from uh from uh romantic uh novel, swashbuckling, normally athletic uh individuals that uh all had

Yeah. Big degrees. Uh I um Mm my son was taken over by one of the tiger cubs. And um

I think he's one of these individuals that even if a meteor Like that film, whatever it was, the double impact or Armageddon or whatever. Even if it's gonna hit the earth, he will not H So we got our Lost

Friday. I got our year to date numbers from the fund. And I haven't really been looking at the the the fund too much because I'm just getting on with my own stuff and I'm not trading it. Hopefully it will be there in ten years time. Um I saw he was down sixty eight percent years to day which obviously

So I thought This is a fund that's now been going for uh twenty three years. And we've managed in six weeks to Lose. Sixty eight percent.

The reason I say this is Because I take my hat off to the individual involved, not for losing sixty eight, because he would just say that's a mark to market thing. He had the confidence Stoicism. The belief. uh that when he was down sixty eight, because I think if I was down sixty eight, I'd either throw myself in the river

Take all bets off. Um, I don't think I would have just Done nothing. I I and I say that as a criticism of me, not a compliment to me. Whereas This individual would turn around and say, No, it's just buyers and sellers and markets in a panic.

And of course this week. He's He's cut. Those losses in half. So he's not far behind the market now.

I would have been dreadful in those circumstances, so I've given it to the right the the the right guy. Um who knows? Who I mean, I I who who knows what but I I do think on your T V shows. There is a dispositional bias in the commentary towards Hope.

And towards blue on the screen. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. The whole history of your country has been built on the basis of positivity and and us Brits could learn a thing or two about that. I just think that If a market loses a thousand points in the day And rallys fifty points in the last ten minutes. The headline should not be D rally's fifty points in the last ten minutes. It should be it should be Da nine hundred and fifty on the day. It's a bit like that Titanic story, you know, about uh

Yeah, I don't know whether you have it in America, but Um talking about The UK's provinciality. Um and when the Titanic went down the the headline in my local newspaper I come from a village in Scotland called Greenock. And the headline was

Greenick man dies at sea rather than the Titanic when he was on the Titanic. But I think the the uh the uh There is a little bit of a dispositional skew towards wanting Hope. And wanting to see the other side of of of of this. And we all share that. But In the short term, I'd worry a little bit.

Yeah. Great. Thank you for thank you for answering that. And we're gonna hop back into some other subject matter, although I people may see some through lines in Maybe the the thinking uh that that you bring

To your life and also to this conversation. So I wanna go to Two thousand twelve. And I w it it would have been around two thousand twelve. I don't know if I don't know if it's exactly two thousand twelve, but in that range of two thousand eleven, two thousand thirteen, I believe two things

happened that I'd like to talk about. One. Was the uh your story Uh

the Texan attorney nickname Jaws and everything around that. And then also a paper. That you uh that you wrote a discussion paper titled Correct me if I'm wrong, the smart way to monetize strong photography. And you can tackle these in either order, but could you please

describe and tell the stories of these two things. Sure. Um I think we should all have heroes and um I have two or three heroes, uh that's then there's a big gap from those two or three to the next, and they're actually The top two are filmmakers. Uh Martin Scorsese's uh someone I looked up.

But uh in gold medal position is is Steven Spielberg. And When when Spielberg shot Jaws, he was twenty five years old. And uh I was listening to

your podcast with Vivi Vaughn uh uh two nights ago and I I heard him mention How uh emotionally empathetic he was on on set. Um Tom Hanks, uh who obviously's collaborated with with Spielberg an awful lot when when Tom Hanks was asked What is it that makes

Spielberg, the Director cinematographer of our generation. Uh Hank's uh replied, it's because he has a a fluency in the language of what it takes to elicit an emotional reaction. Uh I think that's a very important sentence.

Um but I'll and I'll come on to that later, but In two thousand and Two thousand eleven are Uh World's collide a little bit.

Albeit I wasn't twenty five. uh which uh I think still Jaws is still I think one of the top twenty grossing films of all time. Um but I got obsessed with Great White Sharks and Then the best place in the world to to photograph great whites.

uh was in false bay. round the corner from Cape Town. It's not now for other for reasons that like we can talk about later, maybe. Um If you're if you're going to try and photograph Crape White's not uh swimming in the water, which is boring because it's been done before. I go back to my Calgary analogy of too many people doing the same thing. Yeah.

You you I want a shark coming out of the water. I want a shark predating on something. Uh huh. And I'd f I'd um fly down to Cape Town. Or from London on a Thursday night. Arrive Friday morning.

Too late to To go on my vessel. And then on Um Saturday morning.

Sunday morning. Monday morning. I would spend Four hours from five in the morning till nine at C In this place called Attack Channel. Uh trying to photograph the great whites.

Attacking a seal, coming out predating, come flying out of the water to get the seal. Uh Preaching, yeah. Exactly. And um

I worked with a great marine biologist who's now a good friend called Chris Fallows. He's uh taken the best two pictures of great whites. And my friends back in London were saying, you know, David, just isn't it cheaper just to go and see a therapist rather than just go to Cape Town to see this what a effing waste of money. I mean, because every trip was costing me about 'Cause I was still working. Every trip has cost me like about ten thousand bucks.

uh because then I had the boat and then the hotels and and it's their winter as well. So at the height of everyone in London going and getting Yeah. Blasting at Glastonbury or watching Wimbledon tennis or Whatever or being on holiday and a beat the Mickinoth. I would be shivering my arse off.

In their winter, on my own. Um trying to photograph a shark breaching out of the water. And I do think a lot of people worried about my my sanity. Um Anyway, I wasn't gonna quit. You cannot You cannot quit. You you just gotta continue. And I uh but uh equally there are practical considerations and the season would run from June till July. And on the uh the final

Possible journey out. And no one knows why. Great white's breach. In the half hour before sunrise. And the two R's after sunrise. The the general Supposition is it's because

The seal pups. cannot see them coming to attack them and therefore this is their best Time to to to predate. But no one knows the answer to that. Anyway.

The final day I get the shot. And um I remember my my my heart beating so quickly and and You you've then got a You've got about a A forty minute journey to come into the

A very modest little a village in near Cape Town called Simonstown. It's actually where the South African Navy I don't know why South Africa has a navy. They might need it for sort of uh hospital ships uh in the next two weeks, but I don't know why they need a navy. Anyway, the navy is at Simonstown. Um And You can never on on digital cameras.

You can't really find out whether something is what we call in the tr In the trade. Yeah, and I hope my accent doesn't uh make a mess of this, but Out of whack. Out of whack means out of focus. Either something Is

In focus. emphatically in focus or it isn't. And there's no ambiguity. If it's if it's two percent out, it's two percent out. And the my sports photography days taught me that. I I'm very, very tough on myself. Uh uh on focus.

Th you're never gonna t be able to see that on the back of your screen on a camera on a chocolate water. So I got back to the cafe. And Uh Was able to look at it. Um

Or um in the cold light of day. And it was in focus. The shark. Attacking the seal. Everything was in focus.

And I got quite emotional. It was a bit like my story on the plane with Maradona, except I was at sea level, not thirty six thousand feet up. And I knew it was a big picture. Uh so I sent it to The agency in London. Uh I was on my own. Um

I didn't really have it was a Sunday morning. Didn't have anyone to to to celebrate with. In a beautiful ever you want to f ever you want a great restaurant. in and you're you're happened to be in Cape Town in a place called Cork Bay. There's a fish restaurant over the railway line. I think it's called Harbor Lights. And and because the the the South African round is under a lot of pressure, you can have the best seafood bottle of wine and get change for twenty bucks. So I had lunch on my own, like the loser I am, with my camera. And uh

The picture, um Was I think in the next week. Runs A hundred. uh magazines, newspapers in the world. All around the world. And

I got my check. Uh about six months later, because they're all playing, you know, the game in terms of the delay between them getting the ro the the income in and then uh being sent to you. My check was around about I don't know, around about Seventeen thousand dollars. And I thought

This is Got to be the worst. industry in the world because It must have screened Cross me.

At least twenty five thousand to finally get that picture so I've taken this picture. And I've lost. Eight thousand. Dollars from taking this picture. I thought this is I mean, I may as well go back to trying to do something else. I mean what a what a stupid industry.

And then I got a call from someone. Um And I spent a lot of time in Texas, y'all. Um and the guy was that's a bad Texan accident. He said he said, Are you the kid that took the photograph of the shark? He says,'Cause I'm an attorney I'm called Jaws.

And I I won't want them picture of my wall because I want to be the fear of God and to anyone that litigates against me. And I mean it's it went from Texas to Forest Gump in about ten seconds, that actually Anyway, so he he um he said uh How much do you want for the picture now? And This is eleven ten, eleven years ago. And people weren't looking at photography as an era where you could

For for fine art, isn't it? Uh I said well maybe we'll put it in a nice frame. At all. Uh maybe but but uh maybe charge you. Ten thousand.

Ten thousand. Dollars. Um But You said ten thousand dollars?

So I ov I obviously thought I'd gone way too way too high. So I said well listen, um I'm sorry to think that's a law and he's I said deliver it We'll deliver it to Texas for for free. We might even install it. He goes, No, I'm gonna have three of them, Shark. And that was When the penny dropped for me, it was just in that one conversation.

That's photography at an editorial level. selling pictures to Stern magazine or Paris Match or Sports Illustrated or the New York Times. The London Times printed. But sure.

uh one of my pictures half a page, London Times like the New York Times. I don't want anything for it. It's it's it's the best PR you can have in in in in the world. So that was when the penny dropped. The the way To monetise it. If that's not a vulgar word. Um but the way to make a living.

Um And so I wrote this piece. It's my Ode to Cameron Crowe in a way because when Jerry McGuire did it. In uh in in Jerry McGuire when when uh Chris did it and he you remember he wrote that missive and then he put it in everyone's cubby hole. Uh and he said that sports managers should look after fewer sports stars and give them more personal attention.

I wrote my mission statement. I didn't uh do it quite as glamorously as Tom Cruise and it took more than an evening with the towel round my neck, but I did a lot of homework. And the basic essence was that The future for me. uh in photography was going to

B to Not just Encroach art's law. A R T's law with my photography, but for it to be an integral part of of art, to be to be something that is quite clearly Art.

Full stop. And that was if you got that right, and from there it was gonna be a long old journey. Um That there was A marketplace.

And I look back now. Yeah, it was Hundred and twenty months ago, probably hundred and twenty. Twelve, ten years. Um

I uh I think we we uh we've The journey's not ended and the journey's just having a massive uh bump for everyone right now, but I've got so many things wrong in my life. But I

I got it right. Um And You right in your Um in your books.

Which I've read and uh some of the podcasts which I've I've listened to. Yeah. You use a word I think it's very important. We u use the word self propagating. And the importance of self propagation and

If you can get to a position where Your brand is recognized and strong. So many good things come from that. in a in a way that you don't actually have to as long as you look after the brand The position can reinforce itself.

Um When we've We're starting selling pictures for Five thousand dollars. Five thousand dollars.

Seems an awful lot. Four. A photograph. Uh I I look back at We have one subject we haven't talked about. When I did a sports

when I did sports photography, my claim to fame was that John McEnroe spat at me. At Wimbledon and he got a fifteen point code violation for many years. That was my that was my biggest claim to fame. But I used to sell pictures outside the tube station, underground st what uh um the yeah the subway. Yeah.

Um For twenty bucks. Um way back in way back in the day in nineteen eighty seven. Of It was the great days when you had America had fantastic tennis players.

Nothing you don't know. Um, you have an amazing f uh women's tennis players and Coco's quite something, but th in the days of on the men's side you had Makar and Connors. And Garolitis. And it was just like one big party. I mean you just want to go and party with those guys. Um but but but I would s I'd sell pictures For twenty bucks. So

You know it, Miami last year. Um I did say to people We sold a picture for two hundred thousand dollars. And someone said, Well that's an awful lot.

Um, David, that's quite s I said, Well h how I could be accused of taking my time Because that was thirty five years after I We're selling pictures for twenty quid outside.

A subway station in London. So It's um I think there are a lot of lessons to be to be learned from that. A little more closely.

At That's Discussion paper. The smart way to monetize strong photography. So my

understanding is that it included an analysis of the business models or approaches of two At least two. I'm not sure if there were more. very successful photographers. At the time.

Could you speak to what Observations or conclusions. You made it Uh of Those

successful photographers. Yeah, absolutely. And and the first thing I'd say about photography and Almost more than anything else that I will say in this interview with you, Tim, I so believe in this from the bottom of my heart that photography is collegiate. I don't

Compete. Against Other photographers. This is not A zero sum game.

Job. I think you've used that expression. Just because you're doing well, it doesn't mean that someone else should do badly, and vice versa. Right. I I remember that Uh in the World Cup semi final, I did the first ten minutes of uh

West Germany against There are still called West Germany. West Germany against F France. Um And my camera broke. Uh

Ten minutes into the World Cup semi final. And the Italian photographer next to me, he could see I was having problems, and he said Uh my friend. He said except he said it in Italian, Here is my camera. He just gave me his camera. Uh and he had no he had no right to do that. And that's What photography I think is like.

In that piece were Um both uh live I think in America. One's Australian and one's uh actually uh British. Um the first one uh is a guy called Nick Brandt. And Nick uh first got involved in photography as a cinematographer. I think he was doing the filming of a Michael Jackson video that happened to be shot in the Serengeti in Tanzania.

Was it called Earth Song? I can't remember the Michael Jackson. I think it might have been called that. And he fell in love with the plains of Serengeti. Uh he was a creative guy. And he decided to spend more and more time uh in East Africa filming. And he focused on

Uh Part of All all the big elephants in the world are in Kenya. Uh if you want to go and photograph a big elephant. And I'm very much I'm a romanticist, but I'm also a magnifier as well. So

If I want to go and photograph A an ABBA tribute band, I'll do it in Stockholm. I will go to where it's at. So With elephants. The best place.

To photograph eleph big elephants in the world is Kenya. There are about twenty two. Uh. what are called big Tusker elephants left in the world. They're they're the the elephants that Uh look half like an elephant and half like a mammoth from Ice Age where the the tusks touch the ground.

And they're only in two national parks. They're in uh a national park called Ambasselli. I'm in a national park called Savo where Peter Beard, who I'm sure you know Peter Beard's work. He's uh from the Amde Warhol school and a a great storyteller of a photographer. He spent a lot of time in Salva. Um, Nick spent a lot of time in this place called Amber Celly. And he photographed in black and white.

And I always have photographed, tended to photograph in black and white. We can maybe come on to that later. And his work. Was shot on film, not digital. But He was achieving

Very high prices for his work. And I admired it. I and I still do. Uh he

Got there before me. We don't know each other, but I have total respect for him. Um, and I know printers that he's used to use. I've known a lot of galleries Um Who who knows know us both.

Uh And he gives an awful lot back to conservation. And he is not. Um someone that likes

uh socialising. And I respect that as well. Which is why you need to use the wholesale marketplace. um for other people to extol the virtues of your work. We have an acronym in in the UK, which I'm sure Tim you have in America called

Uh fig jam. Do you have do you have an acronym? I don't know what that means. So fig jam means in Britain. Um, fuck I'm good, just ask me. Fuck up, dude. So please also explain what you mean by using the wholesale market.

Uh I left you for you to explain both of those. So wholesale. Means using galleries. Because You if you're a photographer and you want to sell your your your work.

You've got Really two options in the fine art market. Number one Is you can Go to the best galleries in the world that one week might be selling Uh Picassos or Warholes or Baskets or whatever and say

Or or or photographic galleries and h say, Here's here's my work. And they'll take fifty percent. They will take fifty percent of So that's standard. Um And Nick embraced them.

A model to the full. And to d partly because he didn't to go and be selling it yourself. all round the world. It's a lot of work. And you could have get the content. It's not like Origin content providers like Netflix, you've not got the guy that's

making the latest episode of The Crown the next week. Trugging around Berlin trying to flog it. But it but You know that'cause he's not gonna have much of a home life if that's the basis. But if You need wholesalers to

Just true. Our biggest market in the world. outside London is in Dallas. No. I went to Dallas seven years ago. By your market you mean uh

Or our biggest market, you mean you personally? Or do you mean fine art photography? No for me personally. Mm-hmm. So Uh, seven years ago I didn't know anyone in Dallas.

Um But in order to get to that position, you need a gallery. And then you just build up contacts and I mean we uh uh uh Dallas I go to Dallas now more than they go to

uh New York or LA. Um and uh He even culminated I couldn't call my family and friends certainly can I even had the pleasure of having lunch at SMU with um George W and that was that was a great thrill. Um that that all just came from Texan hospitality and just getting to know people, but with the gallery with the gallery at the epicenter of that, with the gallery to talk about me. I know Texas actually has a lot of art, but You could also say that of Los Angeles, you could say that of New York, you could say that of Chicago. How did Dallas come to be your number two? Um

I think uh Texans, as you know, there is a It's a great sense of hospitality there. People people want to help. Um I might uh be losing looking here with rose tinted spectacles, but by and large, we've been welcomed with open arms. There is irrespective of whether the oil price is twenty four bucks a barrel or seventy bucks a barrel. I think that

intense correlation between tax and wealth and oil price has loosened a little bit. I mean I'm sure life in Houston isn't quite as good right now with the oil price as it was when it was sixty or seventy, but I think there's enough money there that it doesn't matter so much. Um You then get into this extraordinary contradiction between conservationists and Hunters. You go back in the history of America. So many of your great men were hunters and conservationists, Roosevelt et al. Um in a in Texas.

There are an awful lot of These like Safari clubs and whatever, the hunters, and then they go and safari to Africa. So uh and I'm a conservationist that I don't really want to get aggressively into the debate as to whether you should spend your weekend shooting ducks.

Um but I I certainly am someone that can't really be seen to be shooting ducks at the weekend. I think that would open uh the doors to a degree of double standards. But there are big walls, big homes, the area's like the Highland Parks of this world. Um, th there's a great climate base there. And we've got to know We shot recently with the the Dallas Cowboys and which was great fun. And uh Troy Akling actually came along to the shoot. We closed down the city center of Dallas.

And I thought what what are we gonna what are we gonna put in the city centre of Dallas? And I thought well We've got to have the cheerleaders and then we get a bunch of longhorn cattle and some cowboys. And And we did it. We closed down closed down the city center. And we got we got some cattle, some cowboys, and some cheerleaders and just let's see what let's see what happens. So I want to come back to that, but how did it start? Did it come from you reaching out to someone? Did it come from an agency who represents you reaching out to someone? Did it start with a cold email from some you know big hat?

Uh plus cattle. Uh Money family in Dallas. How did it start? Which the con the the the Dallas itself or the the idea of the Um

So Wearing my old hat. Um I I'm the geek at school. The nose.

All the detail on the baseball cards. But i if you substitute baseball cards For American cities. I think I don't think I'd uh I'm look uh I don't think I'd do too badly.

Telling you you you name an American city will tell you In in in in gross second cities, Nashville, Charlotte. Austin. The Carolinas.

W how strong are these markets? Where where are the big markets? And W there are some tough markets in America. That I think the two toughest markets that people assume are slam dunks. Or Bizarre. Let's forget about w everything that's going on in the moment. Mm.

Los Angeles is a tough market. And New York is a tough market. Los Angeles is a tough market because The wealth lives in

tends to live in two different places, either on the beach Or in the hills or around West Hollywood. And to the best of my knowledge, they're one hour apart. So Having a g locating a gallery.

you immediately eliminate half of them. Also people in LA A bit like Sam Fran. And you have experience of this. They're invitation rich, particularly in in LA. They're They're time poor.

They're friendship rich. And they they really don't want to go to things it's not a treat. To go to an art gallery opening. They just think they'd rather avoid it. They'd rather walk take the dog to the vet.

Than go to an orange gallery. And this is one of um or the therapist. Um whereas you gotta And in New York. It's it's similar in a way in the My my work's quite large.

And and Peter Beard had a had a similar issue. You and if you got a In in in New York, you can go to It kinda wants to be upper east side. But the galleries are small there by definition because the rents are so high. And if you've got a gallery in Upper East Side that could probably only fit three or four of my pictures in there. Uh, then you go down to to Soho.

And Yeah, West Broadway where where we've been before and s the rents in some of those places Are enormous. And maybe the galleries are more kind of pop art galleries than galleries with the provenance of some of the ones in in Upper East Side. So

You're two lead cities in a way for for And I don't think I'd be the only person to say this. Um Do you heard Present challenges.

Whereas Dallas and Chicago. are fantastic. They're not quite as invitation rich, with the greatest respect to the the the my friends in both Chicago and and Dallas. They're they're slight maybe slightly more genuine. Friendships maybe have more substance.

They want to introduce you to more people. And um the gallery competition maybe isn't quite so stiff. And both economies.

Excluded. Are strong. So Or um There's a big gap for us between Uh Dallas, Chicago. And the next market we have in the States.

And so it was this was a Research Driven. decision on your part to target Dallas sh and Chicago as sort of primary pr primary

Primary cities. Is that right? Yeah, I mean I think that's right. And I think uh The Kind of founding father of the photography in the States. Um lives in uh

Palm Beach, uh and the gallery is uh on that Worth Avenue. It's uh with all the smart golf clubs and the the luxury goods stores and whatever. And he turned me down. Uh Five times. And uh

There's nothing you you write an awful lot about uh in in your work about what you take out of rejection and not quite hitting it. Uh and everyone has different responses to it. I mean, I'm a great believer that you have to experience those times to to get better. And if you're a British guy and you turn up at the most Important. art gatekeeper for contemporary photography in America.

And he looks at you and he says, Thank you, but no thank you. And then you have to roll your portfolio up. And then Get a taxi or whatever to Miami International and then get a flight back to London. That's

That's a lot of time to do a little bit of Self loathing, uh or all s or Uh say well, sooner or later He's not gonna turn me down. And

I'm just going off on a tangent here, but probably my worst time You know our our Scottish writer the the the uh JK Rowling of um of Harry Potter fame and uh her lovely expression of is uh uh rock bottom was the solid foundation on which I built my life. And um my my my uh My rock bottom was probably En Two thousand and twelve. So after I'd written my Jerry McGaure piece.

But no one's a really wanted to listen too much. And the guy in Palm Beach would turn me down. Uh Four or five times.

Uh and he represented Nick, actually. He represented Nick Branton and and Nick and and justifiably so. Um And there was a Christmas in two thousand and twelve where I'm sure some many of your viewers this will resonate with them. Unfortunately that sometimes when a marriage doesn't work

There'll be one day in a year. If you have children that it can be tricky. And Christmas Day can can sometimes be that day, uh in terms of whether you're gonna see your children or not. And Um my ex wife and I now have a wonderful relationship and she's here um uh cohabiting with me in our house with the family now. But This those eight years ago. Um

So it was very clear to me that I wasn't gonna see my kids on Christmas Day. And there's there's two ways you can react to it, I felt that you could be round the corner with a f with friends Watching love actually for the twentieth time and feeling miserable and pretending to keep a brace smile on being a loser. Or you can get the fuck out of there. Um So

I decided on the latter and uh I felt a kinda calling in a way that I needed to go and do something and and um South Sudan was going through A civil war. I've seen some imagery there, and I'm kinda led quite a bit by the imagery of others. Without wanting to plagiarize it.

And it looked like there was there was stuff there that if I could just get far enough north inside Sudan I could get A picture that's Um could stand the test of time if I got my lighting right and my logistics right.

And I got it. I I so on Christmas Day, I spent Christmas Day um in a United Nations refugee camp in in in South Sud with a lot of guns knocking around and Uh just drove north with my minders in in tough areas where there is civil war was going on. And on the twenty seventh of December.

Minders of people watching after you. Yeah. Yeah, guys with guns. I think you know that the my My food

Uh I think cost me About a dollar a day and the accommodation was about a dollar a day and then security detail was about a thousand a day. Anyway, on a on a on a We got I got the picture and it had a I think the best pictures can be looked at for a long time. Um this picture Uh

Could be looked at for a long time, I felt. Um Uh so I I left South Sudan on about the twenty eighth. Of December. Um I get all my printing done in Los Angeles. Uh and so eventually found my way from East Africa.

To LA. Got the picture printed. And then took it. Two Uh the gatekeeper in Palm Beach.

And Uh, this is the same person that had rejected me for five times uh five times. And he he looked at it and he said, Uh He said, How old are you? Shadow.

You should probably have known by now, but why should he? So I said So I I lied as we all do these days and I probably pretended I was younger than what I was. I might I might have said I don't know forty two or I don't know, forty three or four He said um He said uh this picture's gonna change the second half of your life. And I said, I said, Well hopefully for the better, because the last ten years haven't been up to much. And he said, No, it was gonna change for the better. Uh I suppose that He said because

It's a picture people need to see. And he said I'll represent you from tomorrow. And that w that was that was the mo that was the moment. And I I remember going getting absolutely drunk, hammered. Uh pissed. Whatever the British expression, American expression back in Miami. And

Uh Again on my own. Um and that was the kind of that was the moment. And uh so Palm Beach is uh is a Is a a very important market. Um Ob

It's uh it's seasonal as you know. It kinda starts in November and then goes through to May. Um the extraordinary thing about your country is the geographical mobility of of people that have done well. They will they will They will have homes Sure they'll have might have a home in the plane where they work. But

Quite so many people from Palm Beach you find in Aspen at times or up in Nantucket or whatever, and your holiday destinations There there does seem to be quite a lot of Uh it's an expression you've got to be careful with right now, but cross fertilization. There does seem to be people do hop and scotch and your resort markets. We we have we have had no we have no doubt in our mind that if you take

All the top twenty ski resorts. In the world. In terms of Um The

Um Yeah. What you can learn. The quality people that are there. And I know you're gonna get many people that disagree with this, to an extent the wealth, the connections

And in Europe you have five or six big ones where we have shows, but Uh Aspen. For Oh it's

Things that I don't necessarily embrace. It takes a lot of beating uh as as as a resort to have a get to be shown in. And we had a show in uh Christmas this year. It was quite funny actually because the the the galler said Um

uh we will give you a discount on your hotel because obviously you're gonna have to come with your family. And I before I I asked what I'm saying. The discount was from I said that's very kind of you. We'll all be there.

And then when you get to Aspen and New Year, you get a room about the size of I don't know. The shoe box. And they ask you for like eight hundred bucks for your discounts down to seven hundred and twenty. But it's still You do meet some fascinating people there and and uh that that's another great place to to to show in America. So two quick questions. Is

Is Palm Beach An important market. for As it. for revenue, in other words a percentage of of let's say income.

Or is it important symbolically because the taste makers there influence representation and purchase decisions and so on elsewhere. Or both. You're very good, Tim. That's that you're very good. That's the that's the right question. And the answer the answer is a bit of both. Um there are galleries that we show at

That might not ring the bell. In sales. All the time. But The fact that they are um part of your dream team and that they rep you um

serves two purposes, direct sales and also the provenance that someone that is seen to be a scholar in the art of the selection of artists has for whatever reason deemed to include you in their squad. So uh in New Orleans I mean that's extraordinary place, isn't it? I I I love it. Um I don't know it that well. I was there three weeks ago. Uh and the The art district has clearly been uh uh done up quite a lot now and and developing quickly and we work with I think one of the most celebrated Galleries in

in Southern America, people called Arthur Roger, uh and he's been a big uh donator to Noma, the the New Orleans Museum of Modern Art. Uh Arthur will not necessarily be selling at the levels that galleries in London or or Dallas or Chicago

But He is so loved and so respected. The the fact that You're part of his stable only. Uh Curry's favor elsewhere.

You're you're allowed, isn't it a bit like Some of the actors that They will do stage performances. They will go on Broadway from time to time. It might or the big bucks But it's good for their spirit and good for their soul. And uh not every

gallery. We we've got we've got twenty five around the world. And and not everyone Um They shouldn't all be clones of each other and some are A hard ticket galleries. That have less charm.

And then some are galleries you just love spending time with and asking questions and tapping into their Uh extraordinary um life and and and and knowledge and uh Palm Beach is a bit like that and uh um and New Orleans is a bit like that. But the in Palm Beach you do see the incredible mobility of I used to go to the The masters in Augusta.

Quite a bit. Um And I know it's Uh but

When you just as an outsider, when you listen to the conversations that are going around Under that oak tree by the clubhouse. It shows They extraordinary geographical mobility.

of uh your nation. You'll meet people for saying, Where are you now? I'm living in Seattle. Last time I was living in in Chicago and then before, Oh you've moved you've moved up from uh from Austin or whatever. Those conversations don't happen in most countries in the world. They just happen in in in in your country. And that means that if you've got a if you've got galleries in eleven or twelve of the hot spots you do get that uh great cross fertilisation. Yeah. That's very, very true. And uh I promised I had a second question. In fact I have many questions, including the second I had in mind was getting back to fig jam. There's your obsession with the Netflix business model in Montana. There's making versus taking photographs, all sorts. But would you mind if we take

A brief bathroom break since I've been mainlining green tea for this entire conversation. Well done, mate. Um Five minutes. Yeah, let's do five let's do five minutes and we'll be right back. I We are back from respective bathroom breaks, ready to go and

Mid A few promises before my bladder was on the verge of exploding. Fig jam. Netflix business model, Montana. We may not cover it all because we have some time limitations today, but let's let's jump into Fig Jam. What was the thread on Fig Jam? So

The Other photographer the Uh that I talked about in Um my piece, my mission statement.

was a photographer, Australian photographer called uh Peter Lick. Um Peter. Um That's decided he's a good for uh very strong, smart photographer, hard working photographer. But he decided to vertically integrate the food chain. And but what I mean by that is that he would

Take the pictures. But it would be his galleries that would sell his own pictures. And that That is um

It's not a unique business model. There are quite a few American photographers in the Rockies. If you get a places like Jackson Hall Or even Aspen, you'll see guys that uh take the pictures and then they have the galleries selling their own pictures. Obviously their margins are way higher because they're not splitting the take with the gallery, because they are the gallery. The problem is is that it is fake jam.

It is Fuck I'm good, just ask me. There is nothing better. Than third party affirmation. If you're asking

um your best mate about a potential new girlfriend and your best mate Or vice versa. The best mate says. I think I think she's excellent. I think she's Perfect.

That means so much more to you. Uh If your girlfriend's asking his girlfriend about a potential guy and says the same, we look for third party affirmation. I don't like it. To talk about.

My work. Too much other than when it's my job, when I'm on show, when I'm on a stage, or whatever, or uh something like this. You need third parties to do it. A lot of people turn around and say You know what, the last unregulated market in the world is the art market.

I don't believe that's true. I think It's one of the most regulated markets because it's self policed. And something that is self pleased. That regulation can actually be much more onerous than something that is regulated by law. Um and if you do something that is

seem to be out with What is By the art market. You've got to be careful. Um and

Uh I use Peter as an example and 'Cause no one has succeeded more in the vertical integration of their business than Peter. Uh But he he ruffled quite a few feathers by doing it. Because if he turns round and says He sold a picture for

A million dollars. Well How do we actually know the provenance of that? I'm not suggesting that The New York Times did. Uh

It's a it's a tough market to to own The stores that sell your own work. Um Warhole didn't do it. Basket didn't do it.

Uh was this a counterpoint to where you ended up going? Was it a cautionary tale more than a best practices? Yeah. You know I um I thought breaking bad. You weren't expecting I was gonna go from there to break. Let's talk about let's talk about mess. Let's go there. Let's just go straight in. To there's so many of those meth vans on the way to the Mexican border, by the way, from Marfa. Everyone looks like that one that they used in Breaking Bad. Anyway, putting that to one side, breaking Breaking Bad.

To me was Um should be Not only in every cinematography class. Manual. But it should be on every economics class manual. So the cinematography side. I think it was in emphatically the series that showed the

power of immersive filmmaking. Uh we live in an era of wanting to be there. My photography I hope is immersive because I use wide angle lenses rather than largely telephoto lenses. So you feel you're part of there rather than compressing distance. If you compress distance It compresses emotion. Uh if I I if I'm gonna photograph a man or a woman Uh I'm not gonna photograph them from a hundred yards away. I'm gonna photograph them from a foot and a half away with a wide angle lens. Um Breaking Bad did that.

It also should be an economics rule books because from The moment that he went from supplying the crystal meth himself to Two. A wholesale business model. The career in the series took off. It was just that was the tipping point. Just go wholesale, baby. And that's when he saw the park.

Of being able to just have sales everywhere, don't worry about the margin so much. But if you got sales coming out of your arse in every big city in the world. Then or in his case, every big city in New Mexico. Or Hots in New Mexico. It's gonna make a difference. And so breaking pad.

See it was instructive for me to me for two different reasons. So that means that you You looked at the If I'm remembering the name correctly, Peter Lick as L I As a as an ex as a an example of commercial success, but one wrought with difficulties and risks.

uh that ended up being a cautionary tale of sorts that steered you towards wholesale while embracing some of the best practices from the other gentlemen. Who you I don't know if he's a general man, but the other man you profile. Um, you're so articulate and you summarise that. Brilliantly well, yes, that's that's right. Uh Peter P Peter, um

You want to have um He has a brand and he has constancy. In his product and his product quality. We I have a few expressions at on our business.

One is Tom Ford, Tom Ford, Tom Ford. When we go Tom Ford, Tom Ford, Tom Ford, what do we mean? Everything has to be constant in in the commitment to the pursuit of excellence. And so that people when they're looking at the frame

Of our picture. They'll go, That's a David Yarrow frame. They're they're the even if the Photograph wasn't there. Even if the photograph was The poster for

Uh once upon a time in Hollywood they go, Uh yeah, I know that film, that's a David Yarrow frame. Um The second thing. I I used to And I still do stay close to

Um The uh creative director at Victoria's Secrets. Now Victoria's Secrets has had a uh stunning fall from Grace over the last eighteen months. Um but uh uh and we don't have the time to go into the the wherewithal and the the the reasons for that and the whether they're right reasons or not. But clearly the brand is not

of the R. It is not what people want in twenty twenty. And I and I I understand that. Um When Victoria's secret um their head office. Uh was in Columbus, Ohio. And when you used to go into the head office Um in the foyer they had

Two things. They had um Uh the newspaper from Twenty first of November nineteen sixty three with the headline Kennedy Dead. Uh

And then they had another saying that said Perhaps you should be tougher on yourself. Uh I think we should be tougher on ourselves. I think You you you and your writings, Tim, and I've I've I've I've I've I've seen quite a bit, you use the example of an athlete Um that has the expression, No one owes us anything.

And I think that's the kind of corollary of perhaps you should be tougher on yourself. Uh I think the world of uh There's no reason for anyone to go and buy a David Yarrow work tomorrow. Unless you're not. Yes.

constantly the best that I can do and is given third party advocacy. Um it's not for me to tell them to buy it, it's for someone else to tell them. And um I admire Peter for trying to circumvent that. I think he's the only person that's succeeded. It just wouldn't be for me. Um I w I wouldn't like to have twenty five retail stores.

Right now in America, of my own. Ye yes, I would agree with that. conclusion for for these these times right now, uh in particular. Uh where where does your fascination with Netflix And Montana. I'm not saying those two are related.

Come on. come into the picture, so to speak. I know. Uh that that's that's probably a little a little too uh on the nose. No but but where yeah, could you speak to either of those because um Netflix is a a fascinating business model. It finally dawned on the commentators on television today to say

Because they were trying to find businesses. That were immune. from the crisis that we're currently staring in the face of. And You hear this word Netflix.

Coming up time and time again. And I'm I'm wanting to kick the TV in because I'm sitting at home Unable to film, unable to travel, and I'm going to go. Netflix can't produce any new content. Of course they're exposed to this. What do you mean that they're immune to coronavirus? They're right at the heart of it. Where's their new content? They are original content. It's in their mission statement. They fascinate me because

Their c their courage and investment. The crown. Take the the series the crown. Um And For all the Americans. Please don't believe everything that's in there. I know people say I I I watch it because it's educational.

Huff is bullshit, but it's good fun nevertheless. Anyway, so it's like Ten million an episode. Or throw in a couple for post production marketing, twelve million. So you do a series of eight. So you're you're kinda talking about a hundred million a series. Their accounting fascinates me because they'll amortize

That cost. Over the expected Worth the crown. No. I'm

Far be it from me to criticize the accounting of Netflix, but if we spent as we did last week Two hundred and fifty grand in Texas. We'll take that through the P L last week. I'm not gonna spread that over eight years. But What they have taught.

Us. Is the importance of investing with confidence. And the mistakes that we've made, and my goodness we make a lot, is when We decide should we go for option A?

Of Uh a replica. eighteen fifties wagon that was made actually in nineteen seventy by Ford. Or do we go for an original eighteen fifties wagon that's gonna cost Uh double the amount of the replica.

If you take that four if you take the six and saving. It's a false economy. In our own little modest way. So We have to have courage in our investment.

And Netflix. It still satisfying. I think you have uh America has the most visually spoiled country in the world. Um of that there is for me Of of everything that I've said that some people might find contentious or be inter even be interested in. Um I think you have

By far and away. the the most extraordinary canvas on which to tell stories. of any country in the world. Because you have such diversity, whether it be the urban beauty of Chicago, the swamps of Louisiana, the John Ford scenery of Arizona. And then the rockies of Wyoming and Montana and Yeah, for a artist.

uh which I hope uh I that's what I am it is a dream. And of all of all the states, the one that I get most excited of of coming back to is probably Montana. Uh because I think it's still the least dense I don't think have they got a coronavirus uh Um uh uh I don't know how what the numbers are, but they're gonna be single digit. I think every everyone lives remotely in the mountains there, anyway. Uh

When I arrived there, uh And you get the big sky feel. And you think this is amazing, but then you meet the people that are there. And some of them that live up in the mountains It's just

the the m the people the time forgot. There is a they're they're caught in it kind of Time warp. And High up some of the bet I've always has some sort of visceral atta attraction to ghost towns.

Maybe it's a maybe it's a uh manifestation of my my childhood fears of abandonment that I've now got It's now manifesting itself in in a love of ghost dance. It happened to you too. That was uh Um, so I um

Because they're high, they've been preserved better than the the ghost towns maybe in in in California and Arizona. And it's the characters there that we we meet. And we we met this guy I was so cold. Filming outside and I just wanted to get a a drink at the end of the day.

And I walked into this bar that should have been looked like it should have been closed. Uh in the ghost town. And there was a guy behind the bar that looked like he killed about ten people and it and it was open. And I and I looked at it and it was your quintessential American saloon bar with the the wagon wheel on the top and the long bar going back and back and back and the killer the k the k the stuffed moose head and all that kinda stuff.

I thought this has gotta be a great place for a shoot. Uh I want to uh we talk we talk about making pictures and taking pictures, and I do tend to have preconceptions But you are allowed to have spontaneity. And I said, Well listen, can we bring a wolf in here? And he said we have wolves here Monday, Wednesday, Thursday is fine. Wolfs come in here the whole time. And Nothing was too much trouble for him. Um and uh

I put some chicken wings around my on a string around my head. Um around my chest. and lay on the bar and then the wolf would walk along the bar to try and Bite the chicken off my

It's a hell of a hell of a sentence right there. So we got the picture and every Friday night now. People try and replicate the wolf on the bar. So it's the only time in my life I've Uh something I've done has given rise to a bar game in the evening. So you've got to try and reenact We we took Cindy Crawford up to that bar.

And uh she was great sport and she played she played along with the wolf. And these guys. Hm. They're pissed. Get is that a pretty you use sh shit based.

Ship face. Yeah, pissed to us means upset. But yeah, shit fist. And he's this guy. He's at the bar, and one of my rules is whenever we shoot in a bar in the mountains It's an open bar all day.

Everyone gets absolutely other than me, hopefully gets hammered. And this guy when Cindy's One size. You've got A an American sweetheart. An icon. Uh and there she is looking graceful, splendid.

And then on the right hand side you got a mountain guy, age eighty five. And he's so excited to be s standing next to Ciddy Crawford. He actually pisses in his pants and you can see the wet coming through the man So um if you don't believe me, it's in the picture.

Um but uh we we we We have a love affair. We went to this place called Butte, Montana. And it was it was a big old copper mining place in the old days. And It was abandoned in about nineteen fifty.

Uh But a lot of it's as it was left. And we shot there in January in the cold. And there's It in the it was in his heyday

When prohibition came in and with it kind of speakeasies and stuff like that. And we found a few of these speakasies. And uh it was such a wonderful canvas on which to tell uh painting, uh to tell stories. Whenever I talk about your Wild West. Uh I I get energized because

To mi that final frontier expansion. And the stories of goodbye good guys, bad guys, outlaws. Endeavour. drunkenness, whatever. Crime. It's one of

The great periods of history. And the There's a d there's a romanticist within me that Just loves that pushing to the final frontier. I can't articulate it. But what a great story in which to tell.

Uh what a great canvas in which to tell pictures. And so we're we've been We've been attacking Wyoming on Montana. And then the next move seemed to go to Texas because it's the home of the real cowboys. And so much of uh But we uh we uh we we shot there two weeks ago. And um

Right down. I think you know the area well given where you live now. But we were sitting on the Rio Grande. in a Big Band National Park, which is one of the I think the least visited but most beautiful American parks. The only people that live there are kind of in witness protection program otherwise or the crystal mouth operators. Otherwise he wouldn't be there. Or the Mexican. But the uh The the you you could think. We crossed to the Mexican border. Four times in the morning. Because all you have to do is cross

A twenty five yard stream. And we were we were working with some Game of Thrones uh people, which is great fun. And You just said, Well, we're in Mexico in two minutes and would photograph ourselves in Mexico and then we're we'd go back and forth. Uh And we have some

Proper cowboys down there. To me those are my most exciting days to be to be doing that in in in your country, which is There's so much. History. But recent history.

I think your your nineteenth century history. is more exciting than Europeans nineteenth century history. Has to be. So I've One one more question. We'll have to do a round two, because I want to ask you about Scorsese. I want to ask you about Your near death experiences, I want to ask you about all sorts of things. So we'll we'll have to do if you're up for it around two at some point. Uh but

you have and this is this is a whole area that we could talk about really honed the craft of not just photography but collaboration. with different people in different groups. Uh you you're you I I think you've been very smart, very methodical, it would seem. in how you've approached that. So you mentioned Cindy Crawford. Of course you've you've done a lot with many, many household names. How did you get your first

celebrity collaboration and you can interpret or define celebrity however you like it, but how did you get the first one? Or whichever early day story comes to mind. Um Yeah. Hm.

The the the f the first the first point I'd make, um Is that I'm not I'm not drawn to celebrity. Per se, um I uh Yeah.

In my younger life I dated someone that was much more famous than I'll ever be by a multiple of a hundred, and the whole concept of being famous that that was scares me slightly. Some some people say When you meet some of these individuals Um you must um Does your ego go up?

And actually It suppresses. any kind of ego out of because they're just so outstanding as as individuals and you and you're humbled by their normality, by their pursuit of excellence, by their family values, by their manners. I think that's important matters by their self deprecation.

I remember uh I remember going in your Writings. You talk about When you were a lecturer. Uh Princeton.

And I've talked at Princeton several times because my daughter wants to get in and because you're not allowed to bug them any money these days. I thought the the ethical way to do it was to give a few free speeches. Anyway, it didn't work. Um Speeches were fine, but it just she just stayed in the UK. Um but you talk about You gave your Your class. a test of making an uncomfortable phone call or email.

To someone to time have A conversation or meeting. Or a message from someone very high powered. Um whether it be the um chairman of Google or whoever it was. I I'm not sure.

Quite s fi at those things, but I've got better at it. Uh And I would also encourage people to say that We've all been rejected in our life. There's no shame in rejection.

Uh rejection is part and parcel of the game. I think you You t maybe Being rejected ten times in one day can maybe a bit a little bit too much for someone. But You can you can stagger your rejection rate.

But Never be afraid to do it. The one thing that I know from Every Person.

that people put on a pedestal. As to How extraordinary they are and the the the the their celebrity status. Is That they're all like us.

As Bill Gates said yesterday in his fifteen things we've learned about coronavirus. Um Ego and fame. Has They don't differentiate. We're all the same.

And Everyone that I've met that's A celebrity in some eyes. The vast majority. Of

Or Ninety percent of the time, just like us. Um sport stars. Uh uh I found her very nervous about art. In the same way if you took an artist

to Amen Corner uh the Augusta Masters. He would be nervous to ask. where the par three was and the par par fives were. And you know, w w how how does the thirteenth play or whatever. In the very same way.

Um sport stars. That I met are nervous about art. And therefore if you can I think people by people. Item.

Think. that people necessarily buy Products when The product. is um the work of a single person

They'd much rather tell the story. About the person. Ninety five percent of our art Is been bought by

Uh people that have met me one way or other, or listen to me to me s speak, which you could argue makes it a non expandable business model unless I work hard, but I think by and large you got With with celebs, if you can uh celebrities or people that have been I hate the word actually celebrity, people that have been champions of their industry. If you can find a way to engage them. Uh I with someone as

To go right to the top. Right to the top. And the the the glue If you like the glue that stuck it all together. Is fundraising for charity.

Uh I've I've been lucky that Uh my work is valued and because when we produce a s print there'll be sixteen in a series. Sixteen. Um To

Allow two or three of those to go to good causes. Doesn't cost me anything. It marginally cannibalises the addition, but so what? That's Fantastic. And through that.

That's forged uh many links and and so For something like with with with Cindy. Um She um She lost her brother to leukemia at a very young age. She w she would work with me for nothing.

As long as A good percentage of the proceeds went to the hospital in uh Madison, Wisconsin that uh looked after her her brother. So that's now equated to half a million dollars. That's much more exciting for her than her getting a check of forty grand for a boring photo shoot.

She doesn't want that. She's done enough of it. She's earned the right. Not to have to do that. And She is a champion for Those kind of things. So the more

advocates we have like that. Um The better the road. Tim, you know, you interview a lot of them. There

I think they are so long of kindness most of the time. I don't know about you. Yeah. And and this is a rhetorical comment. When you're dealing with these people.

It's the entourage that I can't deal with. When you actually meet I mean it's a bit like it's a bit like you, mate, your entourage, I mean, but you seem quite a decent guy, so people underneath you. My team's great, you know that. Ha ha. Uh I I I don't have an entourage. I think it's the big bald head that scares them off. Uh But

Yeah. But uh yeah, I I I in in my in my experience Fame is like if we're talking about fame, I mean, uh which often accompanies accomplishment in different fields, it's a it's a non specific amplifier, just like alcohol. uh in the sense that if if you're a a small time asshole, you're gonna become a big time asshole. And if you're kind of hard and jovial and compliment people, then you're going to become probably a a a magnified or exaggerated form of of that. So I think it just it it

Amplifies the best and worst of people. So the folks that I've spent time with, whether that's uh The Edward Norton's or the Jimmy Foxes or wherever they're they're great. I I really think. Edward's a big con uh conservationist, isn't he? He's huge. He's huge. Uh yeah, and and And and then on the flip side, those who shall remain nameless have met some very

very well known A listers who are just Fucking awful. Uh and I think that you end up finding people on opposite ends of the spectrum. Uh when you get up to that level of visibility and there's there's I haven't run into much in the middle either. And I've heard you what you're saying about Cindy from friends of mine who know her, I've never met her, that she's just one of the sweetest

Most kind hearted. easy to work with people they've ever met. Uh and I've heard that about Jennifer Garner as well. And We had a we had a moment with Cindy where Um

In order to get a wolf's attention. You can either make it a an aggressive movement one way or other, a bit like a dog. Or you can make an aggressive noise. Um but Wolves like dogs are smart. So they get bored of that after a while. So your your third option is to use meat.

And we're shooting Outside it's minus fifteen. And I've got the wolf. Uh in the car next to Cindy. And I'm just trying to get the wolf to look me in the eyes.

And to get the attention we're using meat and the wolf wrangler has this Chicken drumstick. that uh has been in icy water and it's about minus twelve and he's got a glove on And to my horror. He loses.

His throw of his And the drumstick from ten yards. Whack Cindy straight on the in the eye on the face. Cold chicken. Raw drumstick at nine in the morning.

And Because she doesn't know. Him.

The only person that really has Accountability without responsibility is is me. And I'll never forget it, she just looked me straight in the eye and went, David. And it was the gap after David, it was David. That was inappropriate. And for the Ha ha

The gap between David and that w that was was probably only two seconds, but it felt like about an hour to me. Um. Um and um that hospital. Uh you go up to I've never been I'm I'm digressing and I know we're short of time, but I went to there's a football team in Wisconsin, Madison called the Badgers. And when when uh when uh the Madison bad Wisconsin Badgers or whatever

Um In the UK, our college sport is watched by six people. So we go to this this place in Wisconsin, there's like seventy five thousand people in the stadium. And it's for us British people it's just a huge eye opener to your college system and and how fantastic it is. And I love the fact that in your college games

People turn up in the UK people leave sports games at half time because your team's losing. In America People arrive at half time so they can be drunk because they're not allowed to drink in the stadium. So it's the only place in the world where I've seen and I've probably been to more football sports stadiums than most in the world. Y your college games, this is the only place I know where they fill up at half time rather than people leave at half time. And the people that arrive are all drunk. It's fantastic. David. Uh I think it's probably a good point. To put a bookmark.

In uh Conversation number one on the podcast. I think it would be fun to have another if you're up for it at some point. Uh we certainly have lots and lots and lots of ground that we could cover, topics to explore, and so on. But Uh is there Anything that you would like to say before we close and where can people best

Find you and your work, learn more about you. On the internet. Um Uh my um website is David Yarrow photography. Uh we we show in galleries in in America and uh in in Europe and a little bit in the in the far east. Uh but the the the and on Instagram, we've got a reason presence um on on Instagram. Um I um

My f my favorite story, uh is a metaphor to to my career is the the one that you'll know well of Thomas Edison when He's trying to create permanent light. And he f fails. Fair. The umpteenth time, yet another time, and they have a press conference and one of the young journalists

So the front says, Mr. Edison, you seem to have failed. Again. Um to create permanent lights. Uh you've um been trying this for five years. And it feels like we've made no progress at all. And Edison replies,

On the contrary, young man, I've learnt a hundred ways how not to create permanent light. And there is an element in terms uh in in in my work. With all Animals. In the by learning how to get it wrong, we've learned how to get it right. I mean with the the the pictures we've

Not as to take with mountain gorillas in Rwanda, with with lions in Africa, with polar bears in Alaska or Norway, with orangutans, with the biggest elephants in the world. It is by an iterative relationship between Taking a picture. recognizing its inherent weaknesses. And the areas where we can

quite plausibly improve. That's you get towards the kind of work you're looking for. process is any different from what you do or what ninety nine percent of people do is how determined you are

That's Uh to fulfill that. Virtuo circle upwards of Just saying, No, we need to get better at that bit or this bit or whatever and and then sometimes people say The easiest question I get asked him is

Well, you know what's your best picture? And of course the answer is It hasn't been taken yet. Because if you if you feel that it was taken in two thousand and thirteen, how disparity. That seven years ago you took your greatest picture. I would hope that When

um all this dreadful For us. and repercussions for people which we've been blessedly uh unaffected, um comes to its denominant that I'll go out and I'll take Far better pictures than ever taken before. What what's the point of Believing

Anything else? Gotta Gotta believe that your best work's ahead of you. Um, this this podcast will be a blip in your bottom left to top right perfect linear upward trajectory of your podcast. Well, you know, I wouldn't I I I feel strange saying I hope this is a blip, but I certainly hope that my best work is ahead of me. I agree with you that there's a s there's a strong case for optimism. Uh

Because what other choice do you have? In a lot of respects. It doesn't mean you're not practical. It doesn't mean you Don't learn from your mistakes. But uh especially in times like these, if you don't have some glimmer of hope, I think you don't just lose your morale but you also lose your ability to

To plan. in in many cases if there isn't a a future worth looking forward to that you can imagine. So there's a there's um a wonderful line in um Talking about Tom Hanks films, uh Bridge of Spies. Um and you remember Mark Rylans who pays the uh The b the the spy in Russia. And uh when he's imprisoned one of the

The Russian spa in America. uh interviews him in the cell for the first time, Tom Hanks says Um Do you understand the severity? Of the circumstances that are currently upon you.

And he replies What if I did would it make me feel any better? And I think that's quite appetite for this time that you have to You the you have to be an optimist. You have to look you have to believe in The world improving at some stage.

Um, and uh if we were to examinating of just how miserable this is right now for from every facet of society and business and finance. It's gonna make it for a fairly miserable evening, so one would hope that you just gotta look over over the hill a little bit. Bridge of Spies is a great movie. And that scene If we dig into it a little bit more, because it is all it is one of my favorite scenes, he he asks him if he understands the severity

And the the Russian spy has been caught by the by the but by the US government says yes. And then the Tom Hanks character asks Aren't you worried? And he says, Would it help in response. So he's full

Yeah, you've articulated it much better than me. No, but you but you brought but you brought it up and the lesson is, I think, very apropos of the moment that we we find ourselves in, and that is you can be informed to the extent that it's relevant to your lives and actionable. You can be aware without being Paralyzed. Bye. pessimism and worry. Not to say that I don't struggle. I have struggled in the last few weeks. But

Yeah. it is in fact possible to be Aware. And informed without being Paralyzed. And

Uh that that's something that I'm certainly striving for myself. To that end, I appreciate the the reminder, it is a fantastic scene. And uh David, this has been such a pleasure. I uh I really appreciate you taking the time. Especially during these times. No, well you are you are um

You're an example and an inspiration to to so many people, and I'm very flattered to occupy your your extraordinary mind for a brief period of time and hopefully we can we can we can just add to it uh when when it's issue, but I'm very flattered and humbled to to um be part of this exchange. Absolutely. And uh one one final question. When you got hammered in celebration after You were represented Buy your palm beach.

Man with no name, taste maker, what was your drink of choice or drinks of choice for that evening? Um I think it would been quite a quite a big range. It would take up another twenty minutes to discuss the the br its breadth. But I I think the uh Thing is. If you're Scottish.

You you live under this belief that there's a mass conspiracy around the rest of the world to conceal how wonderful the nation is, and it just hasn't got out. So when we when we go abroad And we go to uh America. We just have to we have to drink a lot of scotch, a lot of single malt scotch. And then talk to the barman that we're actually that's where we're from. Uh it's just it's my it's my own to patriotism. Um so I I I like a good Scotch and uh maybe when I'm in Austin we can um we can share a Scotch.

Deal. I would love to do that and uh David, again, thank you for the time to be continued and for everybody listening. Thank you for tuning in. Be safe out there. Practice well. Hold yourselves to a high standard, but Try to be forgiving also if you struggle during these times in particular. And I will include links to everything we've discussed, uh, including all of uh David's work that we can uh link to without violating any types of intellectual property. And Uh we will showcase everything that we talked about in this conversation at Tim.blog forward slash podcast where you'll be able to find the show notes alongside show notes for every other episode. And uh until next time, thanks for listening.

Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend. And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered, it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the the world of the esoteric. as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's four hourwork. workweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by LegalZoom.

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