#305: Daniel Pink — How to Make Better Decisions and Be More Creative

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Hello, boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. My guest today is Daniel H Pink at Daniel Pink on Twitter. He is the author of six provocative books, including his newest When subtitle, The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing. When is a New York Times, Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Washington Post, and Publishers Weekly bestseller. That's a lot of lists.

Pink's other books include the long running New York Times bestseller A Whole New Mind and the number one New York Times bestseller's Drive and to Sell is Human. His books have won multiple awards and have been translated into 37 languages at last count. He lives in Washington D C with his family you can also find his work, his various goings on at danpink.com and if Facebook is your thing. Facebook dot com forward slash Daniel H Pink. Okay.

Dan, welcome to the show. Tim, thanks for having me. It has been quite a while since we last several years. And uh I know we were talking about All things Japanese, most likely, uh, at least in in one of our recent conversations based on one of your books.

Uh and maybe you could tell people actually just as context a little bit about that book. that we were chatting about in manga format or Japanese comic format. And we'll use that as a jumping off point. Yes, indeed. That was one of my best ideas. It didn't go anywhere. Um So

Uh that was a book called The Adventures of Johnny Bunko. And and it w as you say, Tim, it was written in the Japanese comic format known as manga, and as you know as a Japanophile in Japan. manga, the comic format is is much more versatile and more widely used than it is here in the United States. So Uh, so you have grown ups reading comics and it can be things about financial advice, things about love life, things about history. And so I did a fellowship in Japan with my wife and our three kids. where I study the manga industry and I came back and said you know what

I think it's time. for manga to broaden its reach here in the United States of America. So I wrote a book called The Adventures of Johnny Bunko. And it's a uh graphic novel in uh manga form, uh that reveals

The six essential lessons of any satisfying productive career through the story of a hapless young accountant named Johnny Bunko. That was a fantastically Concise. description and I wanted to also you said In the beginning.

that it was the best idea that didn't go anywhere, or something along those lines. And I I wanted to bring up the book because it seems for those people it struck a chord with, it struck very deep chord. And I believe it was Kevin Kelly, arguably the most interesting man in the world, who was on this podcast. And he mentioned that that book was, at least at the time, his most gifted book.

So I wanted to at least Highlight the fact that if it's good enough for Kevin Kelly, it should be good enough for many, many other people. That's a that's exactly right. Kevin has Kevin did say that and I actually think it's a good book. We did reasonably well with it. It didn't blow off the doors. I I think I was you know, this is a this is a common uh uh thing that happens in in in life and in investing and entrepreneurship and publishing and anything, is that you could be right Too early.

I think that's what it was. that that I actually think that this format of graphic novels and comics having a more expansive region in the United States is probably gonna happen Uh, I might have been, as they would say in my in in the in the world of politics, I might have been a little ahead of the voters. Or using a surfing metaphor, paddling a little too early for the wave, which uh which sometimes means you don't catch a wave in investing, it sometimes mean you paddle right into the impact zone and then get smashed.

Now you mentioned you mentioned politics. I wasn't gonna go here Right away. Oh boy. But and I'm going to get there in two hops, but so I'm looking at in front of me The Yale Law and Policy Review, Volume Eight, Number Two, Nineteen Nin, and it says at the top. This is like a this is like a deposition now. What what are you do you have like exhibit A? I am are you gonna am I gonna did I say something thirty years ago that you're gonna make me pay for right now? I'm auditioning

indirectly, albeit for my my role on True T V as But This won't go into any incriminating territory unless you volunteer something along those lines, which I which I doubt will happen. But it says on top, Editor in chief, Daniel H. Pink. So how did Fate intervene? That you are not currently In the legal profession.

Oh my God. I this is one area where I want to thank Fate for her. For grace and kindness. Um Here's the thing. I I I went to law school and uh I went to law school uh largely because I was a middle class kid from the middle of America and

That's kinda what you did. And once I sort of saw the inside and it was a terrible decision and it and actually helped me figure out how to make better decisions. Um it gave me some actually really good. advice on how to make better decisions. But I basically went to law school without knowing what lawyers did or even what law school was. It was just something I did because that's what I was supposed to do. I found out I didn't really like it very much. And I and once I found out what lawyers actually did, and God bless the lawyers listening to this, but once I find out what lawyers actually did, I was like

Oh You you hire somebody else to do that. You know, it's like like you know, it's like it it it's I mean it's like it takes like it takes skill to like plunge a toilet or you know, you know, uh that kind of thing. um or you know, uh um mow a gigantic backyard. I mean it takes skill to do that. It's just that you know what, it's really not my thing. And so what I'd rather do is do something else and then pay someone else to do that kind of dirty work. Um and yet I found myself stuck and because I was risk averse, I didn't I did leave for a little while, actually. I I dropped out for a little while, but I came back.

Um, and um and so I went through law so I went through law school. It wasn't a you know, I gradu uh accumulated massive, massive, massive, massive student loans, but I was very fortunate in two dimensions in my law school trajectory. One was that my school had a ve uh very pro uh ahead of its time loan payback program. uh key to salary. So if you made less than a certain amount they would offer assistance in repaying your student loans. And that gave people much more Nobody not many people took it, but that gave you theoretically more uh career flexibility if you decided not to practice law. The other thing is that I met my wife in law school.

So it's it's um That's a decision that ended up having a profound Positive effect on my life. How did it help you? learn to make better decisions.

The law the going to law school? Right, right. You said that's the thing Okay, you know, here's what it did. Here's what it did. Here's the thing. Ah okay, so there's this principle in social science. It has a fancy name, but it is something that we all do and something that we should do, is the principle of surrogation. Okay.

How do you make decisions? you use the principle of surrogation, and surrogation basically means find someone like you who made this decision and see what happened to him or her. Um that is find out what it's really like. It's again, this is a totally fancified way of something that is very commonsensical. Wha you know, should I go to this restaurant? Well, let me check the Yelp reviews of forty seven other people who've gone to this restaurant. And what I did and it's amazing to me, Tim, when I think about this and and it's advice that I give to my own kids as well.

I went to law school. Literally. Having never spent a day Not a day. Ten minutes.

Talking to a lawyer about what she did. I'm I'm not I I mean I'm embarrassed to say that, but that's absolutely the case. I went to law school having never sat in on a law school class. I mean it's unbelievable to me in retrospect. And and so had I done those kinds of things, I might have approached it more

Skeptically. Um, but I didn't do those things. And so uh and and because that ended up being an incredibly expensive decision, even though it led to some po you know, it basically I mean it led to the most positive thing in my life, which is my wife. Even though it led to something positive, it was a terrible decision. So now I'm m I I'm sort of a um uh a serrogation

uh uh ideologue. You know, it's like I believe in surrogation for everything. Um Um

Largely because I got bitten by that. Bad decision. Could you give us an example of at some fork in the road or Some prospective decision where you've used surrogation. Or were you planning on using it?

Okay, so I'll give you an example of it. So um again it and it's you know, aga we're not talking rocket science here. We're talking like basically hey Act like a reasonably intelligent grown up. is b is what I'm is you know is basically what I'm what I'm doing here. But let's go back to the uh let's go back to the Japan uh I think so I got a fellowship to go to Japan and I went with my wife and our and her kids, as I mentioned. But before I did that I talked to You know, six different people.

Who had the same fellowship. Before I accept it, six different people who had the same fellowship What it was like for their kids, what would what the work was like, what the living was like before I made the decision. Now Again, that is not

a monumental intellectual breakthrough. But It's something that I didn't do. When I was much younger. Well it's it's a best practice that can often get skipped, right? Whether that's

something like this or something that should be very straightforward if you look at say Atul Gawande's work and the checklist manifesto and checking Mm. the various things to avoid bacterial line infections in a hospital, right? It's very straightforward, but if you neglect it But it's also the

You know, I think that as As I've gotten older and gotten more experienced, I've actually Um become much more aware of the importance of intellectual humility.

And like What You know, when I was when I think of when I was younger, I feel well, I I know what law school's like. How do you know? Well I just know. Because

I I thought about it. And so I know. Uh, I know what lawyers do. Because like I met somebody who was a lawyer and I know with lawyers, you know. And so there's a degree of arrogance in that. Of thinking that you know something when you actually don't. And so if you approach all kinds of decisions with a degree of intellectual humility and ask yourself,

What don't I know about this? Where are my blind spots? Then I think you end up making better decisions. Definitely. Uh speaking of blind spots, I promised I would segue into politics and that is somewhere Uh I have very, very little confidence in any of my

knowledge or expertise. How did you 'cause I was looking at what I believe to be one of their first articles that really I'm not gonna say put you on the map, that's too too much of an overstatement, but the f the free agent nation Article The Fast Company, which was at the end of nineteen ninety. Yeah, nineteen ninety seven.

And in the bio, or the byline rather, of that article says until recently, chief speechwriter to Vice President Al Gore. So h uh where did you Go from law school or dropping out of law school for a period of time. to speech writing.

For than Vice President Al Gore. Well, when I graduated from law school, I was actually very keenly interested in politics. Uh it was probably my deepest interest at the time and I said, You know what, I'm gonna go work I'm gonna work in politics. Why wouldn't why was it interesting to you at the time? Uh a couple of reasons. Number one is that I thought um it'd be it was a venue for for achieving something in the world and making a contribution to the world. The other thing is that I found the actual practice of it quite exciting and interesting in the way that sports is exciting and interesting. So it's a combo platter for me.

Um And uh and I've been interested in it for many, many years. And I said, Okay, this is this is what I this is what I want to do. So I got out of law school and I I started working on political campaigns, which at the time I like because political campaigns are totally interesting. I mean, again, it's like a sport. in that there's it's you know, there's a beginning and there's an end and there's a c very clear outcome. Ah, and it's exciting. and you're making decisions on the fly and

I find political campaigns more than other kinds of organizations and institutions fairly meritocratic. Because there's so much going on and so much Crazy stuff happening that If you can do something. You

We'll continue to you'll you'll be asked to do it again. And that's pretty much what happened to me, and that someone uh at some point asked me to write a speech and I did it and it was okay. And then they said, Hey, that's okay. You want to do it again? And I did it again. And then I did it a third time and all of a sudden that was my job. Um And um and it it ended up being something that I I had a certain affinity for.

And um and it's something that a lot of other people did not. And so just in the supply and demand of who has to do what. That's what I ended up doing, and I and I enjoyed it. I did it on political campaigns, I did it for uh a cabinet secretary. Uh and then I ended up doing it for The I ended up doing it for the vice president. And uh the the the trouble was is that

When I s had spent all these years in the belly of the beast, you know, it's sort of like wow, I really want to work in politics, and all of a sudden in a pretty kind of half assed way. I was at a pretty good gig. In the belly of the beast. Um I realised hey I'm not sure this is my thing.

Uh, I thought this was my thing. But I'm discovering that this is not my thing, and it was even worse. Is it if I Project out. Even further.

Um, and look at say what I'm gonna be like or what I'm gonna be doing in ten years or twenty years, I really don't like that picture'cause I see some of those people around me. Hm. Now w is there anything besides the projecting forward looking at the people who had been in the game, so to speak, for a longer period of time and saying, wow, I could see myself filling their shoes and I don't like what that looks like. Was there anything else, any other indicators or moments that made you realize it wasn't for you?

There were a few things. Um Um First of all, the the amount of Bs that was involved was startling to me. I I expected some

But the if you do if you do a pie chart of B S and not B S, the B S slice extraordinary extraordinarily large. Larger than larger than you would larger than you would imagine, um on a number of different dimensions. And here's the thing, Tim. I frickin' lucked out too in who I was working for because my last two jobs I worked for Al Gore, who's a very smart guy and a very good guy. All around. And

The g uh before that I worked for the then Labor Secretary was a speechwriter for the then Labor Secretary, a guy named Robert Reich. who's a very smart guy and a good guy. So I had basically the best kinds of bosses you could possibly have. Um, and so that was another indication like I got the best bosses you could possibly have and

I still like Hmm, it's not the species of Reich or Gore I don't like. It's the genus of politics that is actually bringing me down, you know? And so uh and so among the things that I didn't like, uh let's go back to the B S. Uh there was an enormous amount of enormous amount of time spent basically um um, in the air in almost everything that was going on within the boundaries of the law, obviously. Concern for basically pandering and Fundraising.

Um It was really quite remarkable. The other thing is that I also felt like a lot of the a lot of the people who were good people that they were so interested, they were so absorbed in the mechanics of things. That

They I I I felt like I was losing sight over like what we were doing here in the first place. Right. Uh what did we actually what did we actually believe in that the um there was so much short term is um so much short term insane kind of posturing and and ooh let's get this slight advantage over the day. Um and um and it was like what's the point you know, what's the point of all this? I'm working really, really hard and I I'm not sure this is I'm not sure we're actually doing that much. And here's the scary part, is like that was twenty years ago.

retrospect, those are the good old days. Right. I mean, you ha you have I mean, you y you know, we were I mean, I'm old enough, I did this long enough ago where I would be I'd be pumped when something I wrote made it onto the the quote unquote evening news. I haven't watched the evening news for nineteen years, you know? Um uh we weren't dealing with social media. Um the world was very, very, very partisan then, but nothing like the way it is now. So I remember devoting a couple of days in my office to some subpoena

that was given to Gore's office for finding some document about some nonsense thing. And I'm like and I and I'm like really concerned about that because I didn't do anything wrong, but it's like, oh my God, if I have an email that mentions X, Y, or Z and I don't find it, and then someone else finds it, like I'm gonna have to hire a lawyer and I didn't sign up for this garbage. So um so I finally decided to I finally did yeah. So so again, this thing that I thought I was deeply, deeply interested in, once I actually experienced it, I found myself far less interested in it than than I would have suspected. If you had told me

That when I left that job. If you had told me ten years earlier, like you're gonna have this job and you're gonna leave it because you're you're tired of politics, I would have been very, very surprised. And if you if you look back at that experience, the skills you either had natively or developed Uh

How do you prepare your speeches? Now. Or or maybe if we take an example of a speech that you've given That has received Very positive feedback.

Or really from your perspective engage the audience. How do you prep how do you go about preparing a thirty minutes, sixty minute. Speech. What does what does that look like? Is there any example that you can give us? Yeah, I mean it it it it depends. I mean actually that experience writing speeches was actually extraordinarily useful in

going out and you know being a writer and then going out and talking about what I've written about. I mean it's extraordinarily useful. I mean if if for one if for no other reason, Tim, it was because you know, I spent a lot of time as a speech writer um watching audiences react. Seeing what worked and what did seeing what worked and what didn't. And that I think has a that Well completely.

uh left an imprint on me. Um again I was able uh you know, I had this before I went out. On Doing it myself. I spent

you know, as much time as any human being could have done. like watching speeches being given. But I always would watch whenever when any of my bosses would give a speech I would actually watch The audience rather than my boss.

Um to see because that's how I learned how to get better at it. Hey, that line works. Hey, that line's a dud. Hey. They're spacing out here.

Hey. It's This person over here looks confused. Um, wow, this went on too long. Wow, this could have gone on a little well, I've never had experience that could have gone on longer, but this you know this this could this could have seriously, you know, this could have we could have we could have

we could have um we could have cut it out there. Um and so Um so seeing audiences react. just gave me uh I mean it's hard to it's almost like um Let me think of an analogy here. Um

Okay, I mean uh this is an imperfect analogy, but it's almost like um Um I'm gonna go um Basically walk up and down the streets of

uh Santiago Chile for a couple of years. I'm not gonna do any talking. But I'm gonna listen to everybody else talking. And it's like whoa. You can learn some Spanish that way. It's not gonna be you're not gonna be perfectly Spanish, but You get you have a huge advantage of someone

If you do that and then go and say, Hey, I think I'm gonna learn how to speak Spanish. It it also makes me think of A uh a a very useful feature for potential speakers, although it's probably not worth the labor for the TED organization, would be to take the camera C that's always pointed at the audience and give you the option of w of listening to TED talks while watching the audience respond. That's an interesting idea. That's an interesting idea. I mean they they they do cutaways on those kinds of things, but the cutaways don't show people being bored. Um,

That's actually that's actually more revealing than any than than anything else. And I'll tell you like from the a speech giver's point of view, and it's interesting you you raise this, Tim, because I haven't really thought a huge amount about it myself. But one of the things that I enjoy most about giving talks is seeing the audience's reaction.

Um, and figuring out what's good and what isn't. So if I come up with hey, I got this killer line I just thought of this is gonna totally rule. And then I deliver and it's like, Whoa. That bombed. Um and in in my head, I I don't

feel like oh I'm so sad that it bombed. But in the back of my head I'm like Ah That bomb, that's so interesting. I gotta make a note of that like that one bomb. You know, um, and why is why did that one bomb? Did people not understand it? Was it was it obnoxious?

Um, and so I love that part of And when you give speeches, when you do something in real time with people, there really anything before an audience. So if you and I were talking before an a a live audience. We would be getting feedback on our conversation. That I would that I think would be really useful and and interesting.

And when you do things that are asynchronous, as we're doing now, or writing a book which is asynchronous, you get that feedback much later. And so the feedback is less is less meaningful. So if I um Uh it if I write something and someone says, You wrote this passage here, I just don't get it. Um, that's sort of a bummer for me. Because I don't have time to cure it.

But if I say something before an audience and I get a bunch of blank looks I immediately know wow. Okay, I didn't explain that very well. I gotta go back next time around and g explain it better.

So I I've So many different questions I want to dig into related to what you just said. Th the first is Actually uh connected to something we were talking about just before we hit record.

And that was uh you having listened to the interview I did with Brian Copelman. The screenwriter. uh filmmaker, the co creator of the the uh hit show Billions, among many other things. And His penchant and recommendation for

forensically studying Film. Watching films with a notebook in hand and taking notes on what worked, what didn't, his responses and so on. And you you mentioned a number of different Questions and Qs. that you might ask yourself while w uh watching in your speechwriter days The audience.

While you're this essentially your boss is giving a talk. Would you be writing those things down? Uh would y it be would you be sitting there kind of with a uh A notebook in hand recording this this type of thing.

Um, what I would be uh what I would often be doing would be Um I would have okay, so If if I had a if it was a speech where I had a written where there was a written text, which is not always the case. In some cases for for lower key for for less significant things, it would be, say, you know, conversation and some talking points and some things like that, you know. But let's say for a speech that was actually delivered, that is a a speech that was written out and then delivered.

Um You know Behind a podium. I would almost always have the actual physical text of the speech.

And I would mark up That physical text of it. So So in in in some cases because it was helpful for me in terms of Just

relating to my own boss. Let's say that he Skip the paragraph. I'm like, Hmm, I wonder why I skipped that paragraph. You know, maybe ask him about that, or maybe I could even figure out why he skipped that. You know, he skipped he didn't even bother reading a paragraph or he skipped a line. Or he had lived a r a do a new version of the line. That was actually very helpful to me in terms of just dealing with my boss.

'Cause again, what you're trying to do in a spe in your in writing a speech for somebody else is that You're you're trying to make that person sound like the best version of him or herself. And so it could be that the way I phrase something Didn't sound like him. But

He knew what I meant and he was able to phrase it in his own words, and that and that actually was helpful for me in terms of doing the the the the the tactical craft of my job. Um, but so I would have the t I would have the text with me. Let's say there was a joke. you know, I would say I mean it basically would like plus I mean serious like plus and minus You know. Um

And say, Hey, that joke worked, that joke didn't work, that line worked, that that line that line didn't work. Um And One of the things that it taught me was Also is that you don't

go based on uh I'm getting in the weeds here a little bit, but you don't make permanent decisions based on one reaction. And I I do that myself now in my own stuff. So if I say something And it doesn't work the first time. I don't say I don't abandon it then.

I make a note of that and then I try it again. Cause sometimes different audiences, different context, different things, it it can work. But Um So but I but I yeah, I would I would do that. It was just sort of you know, and here's the thing, I don't wanna s make this sound like Like I use the word forensic to talk about what complement is doing. Mine was less forensic, it was more um hygienic. It was to me it's like

That's just like good staff hygiene. You know? I ru you know what I mean? I wrote speech. And this and this dude is delivering it. I should pay attention to like how it's going. You know

And if I do that, if I do that I'm gonna do better next time and he's gonna do better next time. If I look at the My own writing. the writing that I've done that has has received the best

response. We'll just keep it broad. Nine times out of ten, it's something that I have Tested and honed. In

some speaking format, whether it's a presentation or a class or something else, which is part of the reason why if If I'm giving a talk or doing an interview in front of a live audience. I always ask them to raise the house lights. Because for whatever reason a lot of venues like should really dim it down, but then you can't see the response. So So I I always ask raise the house lights. When you are testing out

A speech or an article or a chapter. On someone else. Uh What types of question what are you looking for, or what types of questions do you ask? You can pick

Any of those that that you'd like. But what type of questions do you ask? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me take your simple question and complicate it. So because I because I actually think that that speeches and written words are different things. Okay. Um

And so Uh so the way that I would convey an idea in a speech is gonna be different from the way that I would convey the similar same idea in A book. Um

And so um So So in so so for me Um Like

one of the most important I I I'd say it's a it's a simple question, but Uh, and I I find myself asking it all the time to people is this following question. Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Um

Or what I've sometimes found An easier way to rephrase that is This is actually I think this is actually useful uh uh ha a writing hack is. What about that doesn't make sense? Yeah.

I think that people are more likely to say that that makes sense they're you know, sort of out of politeness and also just out of self Oh, of course that makes sense. Oh yeah, yeah. You know, but sort of what about that? So I I converted a little bit. What about that? What about that doesn't make sense with when you give us when you when you when you explain an idea to somebody or you're talking to a a an audience. Uh I I really think I mean, maybe I'm overestimating my own abilities, but I I really think you can tell by the look on people's faces. Um, there are all other kinds of markers of that too. So

For instance, um Um, you know, especially now if you have slides. What are people taking pictures of? Right? What are what what slides are they taking pictures of? What things are they writing down?

Um, so I look at those kinds of cues in in in in In in talks. I think writing is is more difficult. And I'll I'll tell you what I do in in writing, especially books, and this is a little bit insane. Uh or it's I mean it's insane in the sense that you requ it requires It requires someone who is

deeply devoted to you in a way that someone you truly love is devoted to you. So uh here's the here's the thing about my books. Um I Even though

I'm Even though I just said speeches and and written words are different. For me, I actually improved my writing by listening to it. Not because I listen to written words different from the way I listen to speeches.

If that makes any sense. And so when I write books, so the latest book I mean, you know, latest book in all the previous books, um, I I s I have an office here behind my house in Washington, DC. It's a garage, refurbished garage. And for I will sit in my office. And I'll give you let's talk about the latest book, okay, just to give you an idea. So this is a book

I don't know, it's like two hundred and eighty page or something like that. Um I read Every word of that book. out loud to my wife.

At various stages. What's what's more, I read drafts. Multiple drafts of chapters. Out loud. to my wife.

in this office. But wait, there's more. My My Wi. Red. Every word. of this book out loud to me.

Including Drafts. Because for me, that's how I That's how I process the

That's how I process the written word. So for me. I can tell what works in a speech because you have a large audience of people behind you know, reacting to it. When in in terms of written words Like I

I don't know. It's just like Ah. You know, after all these years. I know what's good. And what's not when it comes to the written word.

Yeah, I actually know what's not good, really, is what I know. And so I try to remove all the not good stuff. Um And uh and w the way I do that in this very laborious way is to

Read aloud. Because that helps me look at the words A different way, but also to have them read aloud to me. Now what's amazing to this and and shows you just how incredible and awesome my wife is, is that I am the worst person on the planet.

to be read aloud to. because I'm a complete pain in the ass when it comes to especially if you're reading my my words. Oh come on, you gotta read with more expression than that. Oh come on, no, the emphasis is on that word. No Um My saintly my saintly wife.

has done this for several several several books now. Wow, she's a keeper. Uh yeah. I So I've I've only

And I I suspect this is more common Then uh either of us might expect, but uh John McPhee the uh nonfiction writer also writes I think he still writes for the New Yorker. Fascinating guy, but I took a seminar with him in undergrad And he also

explained how he reads all of his work. I believe he reads not only his feature works, but his articles out loud to his wife. Really? I actually did not know that. Yeah. Yep. So this is Yeah. So I'm in pretty good I'm in I'm in uh I'm in I'm in pretty good company. You're in good I started reading I started reading John McFee when I was like a

like uh uh pretty you know like a young teenager and one of the best McFee books I've read. Was uh book, you might have read it. Called levels of the game. You know, I was it's so good. It's so so good. Maybe you can just get it. I love that book. I read it again. I actually read it again uh about two years ago.

But I read it I read it as a kid. Um, you know, I got it out of Library. I spent a lot of time in libraries when I was a kid. And and I don't know how some librarian or somebody told me about it. 'Cause he has that famous book about Bill Bradley, a sense of where you are. So I read that'cause I was a basketball fan.

And it's like, Oh, I was also a tennis fan. It's like, Oh, you read about tennis too? And I read that book and I didn't you know, at at the time I d I guess I was I was saying, wow, you can actually write about sports in a way that's kind of More interesting than just sports. Um that's a remarkable book. I mean I I can explain it quick. So it's a it's a story about a

match between A single tennis match between Arthur Ash uh who would then was very young, just out of Richmond, and a guy named Clark Grabner, who was from a uh wealthier white guy, wealthier family in I think it was like suburban Cleveland. And what he does is he basically describes the match, but throughout he pulls back and tells each of their stories. Of how they actually got to

the court that day. I think it was the US open a US open match. And so He actually describes them playing a point and then he pulls back and talks about how Arthur Ash got there and he pulls back and talks about how Clark Rabner got there. And he does it with such elegance and such concision. It's just a it's a it's a joy to behold. It's It's truly spectacular. And for those who haven't read McFee, you should

If not for any other reason that he can take Any subject matter you can imagine. Uh And make a riveting book about said subject. It could be oranges.

Plymouth Rock. Yeah. Well the uh Orange's book Orange Book is great. I read that when I was a kid too. Carved. And carved canoes, uh geology. It just Yeah. You name the topic and he can turn it into a a page turner, but levels levels of the game is is just spectacular and One one thing that McFee is very, very good at.

Is and I think this is also sharritory with you. Is asking questions. it given the nature of his writing. Oh. A a very

significant portion of his time is spent interviewing. And what about that doesn't make sense. is A really powerful tweak on the

maybe alternative that you mentioned, which is does this make sense? Right? Or does this make sense or not? And I I I This this may be digging too far into the weeds, but I was really fascinated to read about an approach uh that that you've detailed in one of your books called motivational interviewing. And I and I hadn't heard of this before. Uh but the the example that stuck out to me, and and you don't have to give this exact example, but was Uh Asking a student who is seemingly struggling with algebra

Uh Uh uh a certain question in s instead of others. Uh I don't want to butcher it, but I can certainly also I have it in front of me so I can pull it up if need be. But can you explain for people what motivational interviewing is and maybe give an example? Yeah, so this is actually a it's it's a therapeutic technique.

uh that actu I I think has wider applications. And I heard about it from a fellow named Mike Pentalon who's at at uh the Yale School of Medicine, uh who used it in in uh I think uh addiction addiction treatment. And it's it's basically like this. So let's say that um Um Let's say that you have s uh let me think of a good example here of something that somebody typically isn't that keen to do. Um

Um Okay, let's let okay, let's let's say let's let's let's go to algebra. Let's say you have somebody let's say you're a parent and you have a kid who's in eighth grade. And um He is uh uh has an algebra test and doesn't want to study for the algebra test. Isn't into it, doesn't wanna do it. And so, you know, typical

reaction from parents from anybody in authority figure. It's like what the hell is wrong you know? Yeah. Start saying. It's just sort of demanding start. demanding compliance and motivational interviewing is almost the reverse of that. So it basically so let's say you have a kid named

Bob. You can say, you know Um Uh, hey Bob. Um, I see you're not studying for Your algebra test.

Um Let me ask you a question. I you know, I I see you have an out of test tomorrow. On this on a scale of one to ten. How ready are you to study for your algebra test? How ready are you to start studying for your algebra test? All right, how much do you want to start studying for your algebra test? And Bob is totally unmotivated by it. Bob might say, I'm a three.

Uh right, uh three out of ten. Now, again, our reaction as bosses, as parents, as people and figures of authority is basically is to say, What do you mean you're a three? You should be a nine, you know? But instead you're more chill than that and you say, Okay, you're three. Uh, why did you pick A lower number.

And that always that always wakes people up. So he says I'm a three out of ten in terms of my desire to do this thing. And you say, instead of saying, Yo, my God, you should be a non, what are you crazy, you lazy ass? You say, Oh. Why don't you pick a lower number? And what's interesting about that is that is what it does to Bob is that Bob has to now say

Why he's not a two. And so he begins saying things like Well, you know, if I don't study for this test Um I'm probably gonna bomb the next test. If I don't master this material, it's gonna be harder to go into later on. I don't do well in this test, you might hassle me. And so what happens is is that Bob begins articulating his own autonomous, intrinsically motivated reasons for doing something. And that's the key. And what we know

from a mountain of s of social science research is that when people have their own reasons for doing something They're more likely to endorse the behavior and they're more likely to carry it out. And so this becomes a way to surface Bob's own motivation for it. um through questions rather than through rather than through dictates. And it it can be a very, very powerful technique. You can also turn it inward. Um, you know, you say well how

How how how ready are you, Dan, to finish this chapter? Oh God, you know, I'm like a three. Then you say, Well, Dan, why aren't why aren't why aren't you a two? Oh, you know, and so anything you can do to help people surface their own reasons for doing something makes them more likely to commit to behavior, more likely to follow through on the behavior. That lasts extension is really important. I I I had been prepping this and reading

the background, some of it, and it didn't even occur to me that you could apply it to yourself and use it for journaling or something like that to uncover Or maybe uh rediscover the motivation that drove you to start it in the first place, even though you lost sight of it or petered out or whatever the hell it might be. Yeah. I mean you could you could use it for going to you you could use it for you could use it for you you could use it for going to the um you know going to the gym or going to going to work out. Like how like you know, how ready are you How how you know, how excited are you about how motivated are you to work out right now?

I'm a two. All right. Well I said it to myself, Well why aren't you a one? Well You know, I know that probably I'll feel better if I work out rather than if I don't work out. I know that actually Um

Um, if I don't do this aerobic exercise today, I I probably gonna, you know, might not have a chance to do it tomorrow, which means I'm gonna feel like crap. Um, and so you can you can turn it on yourself as well. It's all about those surfacing you know, uh you know, one of the things that we've done in turn in management and parenting and all in all other realms of life is that we have over We've overdosed on control.

Um and control is not an effective way to motivate people for important things. Um, because human beings only have two responses to control. They comply.

Or they defy. Yeah, that's a history of humankind, it's basically human beings either complying or defying with control. Uh And so we got we need to abandon control as a motivator and look for ways for people to summon their own autonomous motivation for doing things. So we talked at the very top of this interview about Johnny Bunco and how

Uh you were ahead of the voters in a sense. It didn't quite catch. You might have been a bit early with the manga format. In contrast A whole new mind seems to really have resonated strongly and it did catch. So I'd love to try to deconstruct why that was the case. And as one example

It appealed so much to Oprah Winfrey that she gifted I want to say forty five hundred copies to the Stanford graduating class of two thousand eight when she did her commencement speech there. Why do you think that is? And the subtitle I should just mention, so Hold New Mind subtitle, Why Right Brainers Will Rule the Future. Why did this one take? Yeah, I I I mean it's it's It's hard to say. I I think a reason that it took

uh is that it was um fairly original idea. Uh uh conveyed in a way that was easy to understand and also had the advantage of probably being more right than wrong. Um so

Uh so the idea in that book is the following that I that I was arguing then I I still believe it today. that the structure of our brain offers a metaphor for describing the future of work. And um the you know, all your listeners know there's been a lot of stuff written about left brain and right brain over the years. Most of it's just totage. But one of the um

one of uh what we know about our brains is that they're actually somewhat efficient and that over time they've they've divided up tasks. So the left hemisphere specializes in one set of tasks, tasks that are logical, linear, sequential, analytical. The right hemisphere specializes in a different set of tasks, tasks that are about understanding context, about synthesis. um and about um simultaneous processing. And so Um that division of labor.

uh in the brain, I think offers a very powerful metaphor for understanding what was what what I thought was going on in the world of work, and it continues to go on in the world of work. But actually to make sure I got the underline science right, in a tearing page from the Tim Ferris playbook, I actually went to the National Institutes of Health To get my own brain scanned. See my own brain in action. Which ended up being a a profoundly disappointing experience, but that's another story for another day. Um and so um Basically the idea here is this.

that the abilities that used to be the most valuable in the economy. Characteristic, it's a metaphor. characteristic of the left hemisphere. logical, linear, sequential, analytical spreadsheet SAT abilities. Those abilities are still necessary. But they're no longer sufficient. And its ability is more characteristic of the right hemisphere of the brain. Artistry, empathy, inventiveness, big picture thinking, those abilities are now the first among equals. And the reason for that

Yeah. That is a very hard headed reason that those kinds of abilities are Easy to outsource. Easy to automate.

And that that the that the left left hemisphere abilities, sorry, the left hemisphere abilities, the SAT spreadsheet abilities are easy to uh outsource, easy to automate. And less valuable. in iterating something new. uh in dealing with the demands for new That comes from an abundant world.

And so Um And so I actually maybe another reason that took is that I basically came to a soft hearted conclusion in a hard headed way. There was a very clear economic argument for that. You know, the three A's, Asia automation abundance.

reductive left brain work can be done cheaper overseas. the other A automation. It can be done faster by computers and now smart machines. And then finally abundance that our material needs have been satisfied and oversatisfied. that there's a premium now in coming up with something utterly new and giving the world something it didn't know it was missing. uh which is a very much of an artistic

ability. And so um That's the argument in that book. And um it it's an argument I think that people resonated to because they were seeing inklings in their own life and they needed a way to Describe it, categorize it.

Well it seems like History is proven your uh prediction or description Very accurate at this point, for sure.

And it also Would uh it also occurs to me that this is this is another place Uh manga aside were you and Kevin Kelly the founding editor of Wired Magazine are very much on the same page.

Um You mentioned something in passing though that I can't let go because I have to hear the separate story. Why was your brain scan disappointing? Oh, uh because um Yeah. You know, I looked at my brain. I was thinking my brain would be special some kind. It looked like every other brain I'd seen.

Like I couldn't pick my own brain out of a lineup. Um so that that's what it was. I mean it's sort of I I shouldn't say disappointing. It was it's it's it's humbling, you know, like I the idea that here's the here's my I got this brain in my head, all right? And Um leaving aside the

Leaving aside the the thorny issue of Where does the brain end and the mind begin, or vice versa? Um my brain is a is is largely responsible for who I am.

And yet when I see a picture of it. It's completely unremarkable and looks like every other brain that's being scanned that day. There's something kind of weird and humbling about that. Disappointing, too. I don't know, I was expecting my brain would be cooler or something like that, so uh looking looking back at all of your books

What? D you find any commonalities. Or patterns. And I mean we can also forge all sorts of spurious

correlations but looking at the books that seem to have Struck a nerve. And those that for whatever reason didn't Perform up to your hopes. Yeah.

Um I you know, I don't know. I mean I I think that I think that when it comes to actual performance of things Um like how well a book does. That's something that's not fully I mean you know this. I mean sure anybody knows this. That's not something that's fully in our control. Yeah.

And I'm and I'm actually, you know I'm actually more or less okay on that. I mean it's it's disappointing when something doesn't do as well as you want. But To me, my criteria My c criterion is

Did I write the best book I possibly could write? And once you put it out there. There's so many other variables, you just don't know. whether it's gonna take or whether it's not gonna whether it's not gonna take. Um so I mean I wrote a book You know, my first very first book was a book called Free Agent Nation. Uh that was not a monumental that did okay, but it was not a monumental hit. It should have been, because I think I was right.

Um Um, but for whatever reason I think it came out. Like I think I I think it just came out at the wrong I think it came out at the wrong time. It should have come out slightly earlier. Um And so so on that, so so to me the the you know

Um, how well a book does uh that's there's so much randomness in that. I'm not I try not to lose any sleep over it. Um in terms of actual, you know, is there a through line among all the books Uh I that's an interesting question. And I I can say from the creation point of view, there's absolutely not a through line. Um There is no intentional through line through through through these kinds of through these kinds of books. It's not as if I have

mapped out somewhere on a whiteboard here and Pink Inc. world headquarters in Washington D C this like grand scheme to create the pink oove. in a certain fashion and a certain timetable with certain things covered like that. Far from it. I just

go from one thing to another, I I just like figure out what I'm gonna do next. Ah, and and as you know, Tim, I mean writing a book is so difficult, it's so hard, it's so time consuming. that if you're not in love with the idea, if you don't love working on it, you're gonna it's gonna be miserable for you. So so I just pick the next topic based on what I'm really interested in and wanna what I what I wanna spend a couple of of years, you know, a few years working on. Um So I I think it's possible that people can detect a through line That readers could detect a through line. Maybe they're seeing something that I'm not, but if there's a through line, it's visible only retrospectively. It's not something that was intentional.

What was Speaking of difficulty and writing process Wha what if there is a uh If if you had to pick one, what has been the most difficult book for you to write and why? Uh I think it was this I think it was the last one, the la last book that I wrote. Believe it or not. You would think it would get easier over time, but it didn't.

Um So this last book, when about the science at Tommy, that was the most difficult book to write. Um Partly because I went into I I went into that book. Um with so I went I I started writing a whole new mind, having done the re done some research and saying, Hey, I think there's something going on here. Like I think we're moving to this world. You know, and

sort of I had a theory of the case. With Drive, I had uh a book about motivation. I looked at a lot of the research in motivation. I said, Well, wait a second, people are missing like a huge story here. With when Um I went in l totally with questions rather than with any kind of theory of the case. I basically said Hey, I'm making all kinds of timing decisions in my own life. I'm making them in a totally half assed way.

I'd like to make them in a better way. Could somebody please give me some guidance? And I started looking around for guidance and it didn't exist. And then I started looking at the research and I realized that across all of these domains of research, literally dozens and dozens, you from from the hard sciences of molecular biology to endocrinology. to the social sciences of economics and social psychology uh to many many domains these scholars are asking very very similar questions What's the effect of time of day on what we do and how we do it? How do beginnings affect us? How do midpoints affect us? How do endings affect us?

And so I went in saying wow. How do I make better timing decisions myself? But I didn't have a theory of the case. And so The volume of research for this one was so monumental. There were so many studies out there, and there were so many different in so many different fields, and fields that Like molecular biology is not a subject that is at my fingertips, all right? I had a I spent so much time I mean I basically would read those papers

I would read'em through and I would ba write down all the words that I didn't know the meaning of. And then I would look up those words. And then I would read it again. And I would read it a third time. And so very painstaking. Um And then also because I didn't have a theory of the case, I just had questions rather than even a kind of skeleton or a shape of what I wanted to write.

Um I had to figure that out. So I probably did I don't know. Seventeen, eighteen different outlines um of of that of that book. So that was um That was you know, you would think it would get easier.

But it actually got hard it it actually got harder. eighteen outlines. What do what do what what would such an outline look like? How long is it? What's the format and when I say an outline it's it's relative relatively short, just like one or two pages. Nothing nothing too comprehensive. I guess outline is outline is is um outline is Well, it's partly the right word. Because I'm a I I I'm a firm believer when it comes to speeches and when it comes to books. I'm a firm believer in structure and shape.

Um I think that those are what makes some things work. I think it's true for television shows, I think it's true for podcasts. Um I think that structure I think that that structure and shape Or

very important. All right. Um no, see here's the thing, Tim. I think your podcast They don't necessarily have a structure. But they have a shape.

There's no question they have a shape. All right. And so it's a you know, it's just a di it's a difference between you know, we can have s you you can have sculptures beautiful sculptures that have right angles. And you can have other beautiful sculptures, like a Henry Moore sculpture, that has no right angles at all.

But it has a distinct and memorable and identifiable shape. Right. So um but I'm a big believer in in in structure and shape. And um so what I'm doing there is that that's basically just my search for How do you organize the ideas and what's the shape or the structure of the final product going to be because once I see the shape

I f I can do a lot better work. But for this other bo you know, it's like I like I'm reading through seven hundred studies on all this kinds of stuff, and I'm like, Good God, how do I even make sense of this? What do I put where? I started thinking about organizing it. Do I organize this book about timing? Do I organize it basically the way that we organize time? So do I write about You know, the hour. The day. The week the the week.

The month. The year. A lifetime. And That's a really bad way to do it.

But I ended up Why is that why is that bad? How did you decide that was a bad approach? Because um Um

for for a couple of reasons. Number one, um The material didn't organize itself. Cleanly in that way. Uh number two, uh that's that struck me more as a uh like a handbook, like a farmer's almanac, rather than

uh an intelligent book of Science journalism with takeaways. Um, and more important, that's not a book I would want to read. And you know, and so so I so I abandoned that, but I did it but did I really abandon it? Because I actually ended up writing A whole chapter in this book about the day.

So I ended up Cleaving off some of that and And keeping it for and keeping it for for for other things. And so Um, so it took me a long time to it took me a long time to find the shape. And the way I find the shape is I basically Write it down on either what I call big ass sticky, this giant post it notes.

Or um or or on a whiteboard that I have in my office. But I went through many, many, many iterations. And on that I have a somewhat social view of of that, and that what I'll do is I'll I'll run it past people to see what they think. Um And say, Hey, what do you think if I organized the book that way? Does that make any sense?

Or um Or what about that doesn't make sense, or what am I missing here, or what's the weak spot there? Uh, but it took me a long time to It took me a long time to find the shape of uh of this book.

That coupled with the fact that the the amount of research was so massive. It was it was actually it was actually um It was actually the hardest book I've had to write. Well you're doing the research as you're writing the book. Right. I in in effect, it sounds like, because you're coming into it with questions, but then you're having to Yeah. Digest.

all of the information that might lead or might not lead to answers while you're writing it. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Very, very hard. And that's hard to the right exactly. You're so right about that. That's hard to do too. And a lot of people I mean, you know as a writer It's it it it's it's it's it's messier than that. There's this notion that I'm gonna do my research and then when my research is done, I'm gonna do my writing. All right. Yeah and so it it it never works that way. But but when you have more questions and you have

When you don't know the shape yet and you have still have a lot of questions. What happens is I'm gonna do the research. Now I'm gonna try to write down something about it. Crap. You know what? Now that I write it, I realise I'm missing a whole thing here and I gotta do more research. So let me go back and do that. So it's less of this kind of

You know Um, you know, happy March from you know, uh happy jump from here's I'm gonna go from this lily pad to that lily pad and happily jump from each one to another, like a There's a lot of Task switching. I I that's exactly why The Four Hour Chef for Me was also by far the most difficult book, among other reasons to write is that I came into it

intending to Try all these experiments, ask all these questions. and write the book somewhat chronologically as I'm getting answers and uh that was a very punishing way to approach things. But to to to look at the content So going past the structure and looking at the the content and the findings of when

Uh I I was looking at an N PR interview that you did. and uh teasing out some potential ways that I could apply the content from this book into my own life. And I'm gonna read a quote. You can feel free to correct it, but this is this is what I have as as one very clear example. And I'd love to basically I'm gonna ask you what types of decisions

Have changed for your easy ways that people can think about Making changes uh related to timing. So here's one. Then I'm gonna I'm gonna truncate it a little bit, but quote, in a lot of this research in big data, you see systematically poor performance in healthcare settings in the afternoon.

Example, the incidence of hand washing inside of hospitals dramatically drops in the afternoon. And that seems like a bad thing to me. My voice, not yours. You look at colonoscopies, endoscopists find half as many polyps and colonoscopies in afternoon exams versus morning exams, even with the same population. Doctors are more likely to prescribe unnecessary antibiotics in the afternoon. Compared to the morning. And This seems this is very, very actionable, right? If we are to trust the data, if the patterns, if the correlations hold.

Then You are certainly better off. it would seem. Uh if you're if you want to mis ridicate. Uh

I'm not sure that was English. Risk mitigate. I think I swapped the first two letters. That's that has a fancy psychological term. Uh it's called it's called in linguistics a tip of the slung. Yeah. Exactly. Uh and you we might come back to your undergrad and linguistics, but uh What what are what are other examples? related to the when, the timing that that people can might be able to implement. Oh my gosh, there's so much stuff. I mean the the good news about this is that is that

When I did finally uh wrestle the research to the ground and figure out how to structure it. Um it yielded so many great, great takeaways for for readers. So so so take it take a step back. What we know from a mountain of research, took me a while to figure this out. was um

that we tend to move through the day in three stages a peak, a trough, a recovery. peak trough recovery. Um now most of us move through the day in that order. Um, people who are night owls, people who have an evening chronotype, they move through the day in the reverse order, recovery trough peak. But what we know is that

Um We we know a few things about human performance over the course of a day. The most important thing, and this is a this I wish somebody had told me this. before I was fifty rather than once I was fifty, all right, is that our cognitive abilities Do not remain the same.

Throughout the day. our cognitive abilities change during the day and they can change in some dramatic ways and they can change in predic they change in predictable ways. But How we perform depends on what we're doing. Right. So What we know about the peak.

Which again for most of us is the morning. For night owls it's later in the day. What we know about the peak is that the peak is when we are most vigilant. And what does vigilance mean? Vigilance means we're able to bat away distractions. Um, and so When we're vigilant and can bat away distractions, that makes it the best time for

Analytic work. Work that requires Heads down. Focus. Writing a report.

analyzing data, that kind of work. Um there's no c that Piles of research tell us. That we should be doing our analytic work during the peak, right? The trough. That's the early afternoon and early to mid afternoon, as you s mentioned from the data on on healthcare. A lot of bad stuff happened then.

I mean you have uh standardized test scores for students go down in the afternoon. You have um if you look at auto accidents. Once you control for cars on the road. Uh obviously there are gonna be more accidents when there are more cars on the road, but once you control for that The most dangerous time to drive is four to six AM.

The second most dangerous time is two to four PM. During that midday trough Um we should be doing more of our uh administrative work. We should be

answering our routine emails. We should I mean you've you s you you you talk you've talked in the past, Tim, about batching. We should be batching our routine emails and answering them during the trough. We should be filling out our TPS report. We should be filling out our expense report. Whatever. That kind of stuff that we have to do during the course of a day. That doesn't require a lot of major cognitive power.

Now The recovery period again because this peak traff recovery Is a pattern of mood. That also is a pattern of performance. The recovery period is actually really, really interesting.

During the recovery period. We have elevated mood. Our mood is better than during the trough. But were less vigilant than during the peak. And so it's really important to think about that. Combo platter.

Yeah, that is you have Higher mood. But less vigilance. That makes it a good time for things like brainstorming for for things like insight work, where if you're too locked down and focused, you're not gonna be that creative. And so that that degree of loosen coupled with the elevated mood

Makes that recovery stage better. For Um uh what are called insight problems, uh brainstorming, things that require iteration. And so what we see is that If you if we recognize that our cognitive abilities don't stay the same over the course of a day.

That they change in predictable ways, and that what we do That when we do something depends on what we're doing. We should be moving our analytic work to The peak. Our administrative work to the trough.

And our insight. And creative work to The recovery. And it's that simple. And what the research tells us also is this. I mean Is it time of day explains about twenty percent of the variance.

And how people perform on Cognitive tasks. So if you think about that, that's a big deal. Like we can explain the very like If Fred, you know, if you if we have two people, you know, Maria and Sally, and they perform differently on cognitive tasks.

How do we explain that, all right? We say How do we explain that variance in in how people perform you know, Maria Sally and and you know eighteen thousand other people perform on cognitive tasks. We say, Oh, some people are smarter than other people. Some people are more conscientious than other people.

Some people have more social advantage than other people. But what the research is telling us that twenty percent of that variance. It's time of day. Right. Our when decisions in a strategic way rather than in the lazy haphazard way with which we tend to make our win decisions. And so and you see this most glaringly, and this is my rant of the of the of the year, is you see this most glaringly

with meetings in organizations. When we schedule meetings in organizations, the only criterion we use is availability. That's it. Who's available? Uh, we don't say what kind of meeting is this? Is this a meeting where people have to be analytical? What kind of meeting is this? Is this about travel voucher policies?

What kind of meeting is this? Are we brainstorming? Who's gonna be there? Are they gonna be morning people? Are they gonna be intermediate people? Are they gonna be evening people? We don't even ask those questions, we just say, Who's available? And it's it's causing, um it's it's one of the easiest things organizationally to fix and it's something that At the unit of one individuals Can be a lot more systematic and intentional about moving the right work into the right time slots.

What what time of day do you generally wake up? Personally. Um I w I wake up a little after seven. And what is what is the first time.

two hours of your day look like? Do you do you have particular any particular routines? Can you walk us through what that uh I don't I don't have the the detailed routines that Um that you have that you have written about that you uh actually I've experimented with and uh you know, things like like uh journaling and meditation or anything like that. Um, here's what I do. I wake up. All right.

I I take a shower. A shower helps me wake up, so I take a shower. Um I go downstairs and I feel better if I see a member of my family. So whoever happens to be awake, I'm my I have two kids in college now, so I don't see them, but I have another kid who's still a still around. So I see him

Ah, I see my wife. And um I like to have some protein for breakfast. Uh, if that's a ritual and caffeine. Protein and caffeine are my It's my preferred bread. What's your go to protein? Uh you know what?

I I'm up Uh I probably eat more hard boiled eggs than almost any other person in America. I am keeping the hard boiled egg industry in business. I think I'm single handedly responsible for the advent of hard boiled eggs for sale in individually wrapped packages in airports. I really think so. Because once they once they introduced that, I bought them all. And they go, Oh my God, there's such demand for these hard boiled eggs.

Um so Um I was just I was actually saying to my wife I I eat so many eggs, it's ridiculous. So um Um

So I don't have a cholesterol problem, fortunately. Um So um so uh hard boiled eggs or um or or peanut butter. And then um what I do is when I'm in my writing day, and this is actually something I did better having read this book When I when I'm on writing days, um I will go to my office, which again is behind my house.

And I will not bring my phone with me. Uh I will not turn on my email. And I will give myself a quota. And that quota is usually is is a word count.

So call it seven hundred words. I'm a fairly slow writer. So you got these people out there who are like I got three thousand words a day. And it's like I don't think I've ever done that. Um Um and so very, very slow. I I'm probably I may I may be slower than you are even. Yeah. Well here's the thing. I'm slow and basically I'm I'm basically slow in every

Um in every domain of my life. I'm like just such a dis I'm a slow runner. I'm a slow reader. I'm a slow writer. I like I I I I s really heavily scrutinized my twenty three and me report to see if I had some kind of like tortoise gene in me somewhere. That somehow like one of my

ancestors and Latvia somehow mated with a tortoise at some point. Um And so um And so um and so so but what I' what what I will do though is I will come in and give myself that quota and I won't do anything until I uh hit that number.

Um and then I then I'm free to do other kinds of things. Um and then what I'll do is I always you know, I'll I'll have lunch. And then I will um I like to do I I I have done a good job, especially after like this this book changed the way That I organized my day. because I do my analytic work better in the morning. So this book bas this book impelled me. To clear out my mornings.

To do that. analytic work, which for me is writing. Uh I stuff the administrative stuff off into the um uh to the to the midday. And then batched emails and that kind of garbage. And then I like to do interviews. Um

Especially when I'm interviewing Like for book interviews. I like to do those later in the day. Because I'm a little bit Or

Um, I like I like the interviews to be a little bit more freewheeling. I'm not doing I'm not an investigative reporter, I'm not conducting a deposition. I just, you know, want to hear people's stories and what they think about stuff. And so You're not quoting the Yale Law and Policy Review volume eight, number two, nineteen ninety? No, no, no. And so I'm not I'm not you know, so I want that to be a little bit more iterative. And then I and and then I actually end up exercising later. I end up exercising later in the day and in the early evening'cause I find that that that works best for me. You said on a writing day when you were on book deadline

How many what is your week weekly structure? tend to look like? Do you ha do you is every day a writing day? Yeah, when I'm when I'm writing a book, yeah,'cause I'm a I'm a I'm also I'm also a momentum player. So Um

So for me, writing every day is hugely important. um when I'm when I'm working on a when I'm working on a when I'm working on a book or working on a long article. So I tr I try to do that I I try to do that every single day. Like like seven days a week. And do you have P do you have set periods of time between books?

Do you decide in advance I'm gonna take X period of time? Until I investigate. Another book. What is what is your macro planning look like? Macro planning, boy.

My macro planning is neither macro nor planned, I think. Um Like for um I don't know. Put it another way, if that question sucks, which it might, w uh because it's also making a bunch of assumptions.

Uh. How do you decide when to take on? New projects or new books. If if that's a better question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I I sort of go in I sort of go in cycles. So I'm actually heading to that cycle right now. So I've spent a lot of time writing this book and try to make it as good as as as good a book as I can in terms of actually spreading the word about it. I try to do that with

know, forgive the cliche, not leaving anything on the sidelines and doing everything I possibly can, being everywhere, being strategic about it all, trying new stuff, trying cool stuff. uh trying to get some momentum behind the behind the book. And then You know, when that and when that sort of white hot center dissipates. Um Um

And the book We hope has some momentum of its own. Uh, then I'll go back and figure out the next project, whatever that project might be. And the way I do that is I know this will shock you, Tim. In a slow, laborious way.

Mm. Um, so what I do is is I um I have uh I'm a sort of a I use I'll give you my mechanisms here. So I use

But believe it or not, I use a lot of paper folders and I have a labeler. Um I use paper folders and a labeler. to label my folders. Uh,'cause I I'm I I I was like a getting things done guy before getting things done was cool. Um the Uh I I met I met David Allen like in nineteen ninety seven.

Um and You know, I bought a labeler like shortly after that. I was gonna ask if he's if he's sending you your customary f you know, five percent royalties for your uh the the brain power. You're like the guy who invented rollerblades or the gal, you know, forty years before they became cool. Oh yeah, no no I I I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm a GTD devot. I'm not I'm not hardcore. I'm not like you know, orthodox, but I'm not

I'm not reform I'm not reform either. I'm sort of like in the middle. And so um So uh so anyway, I have these paper files with labels. And so when I read stuff or make notes of myself, I throw stuff in those those files. I use Evernote. And I also use Dropbox.

Um And I just throw ideas in there and then what I do is every six months or so I go through those ideas. uh of like, hey, this would be a cool sh television show to do. Hey, this would be a cool article to write. Hey, this would be a cool book to write. And as I look at those ideas, maybe revisiting them every six months or so. Uh, I realize that most of them are just god awful ideas.

Um, one of my beliefs about the human brain is that or creativity is that in order to have good ideas, you have to have a lot of ideas. Um And so I have a lot of bad ideas. uh which I think is the only way for me to surface any decent ideas. So

I I'll revisit those ideas and then when it comes um and I'll I'll I'll I'll call. And what often happens when I call is that a few ideas end up just staying there over and over again every six month cycle. And then when it's I get to this point now, I'll I will go back to all of those files and look more carefully and say, Hey, I sort of have in my mind's eye right now three possible projects. And and so I'll

Then I'll more heavily bet those projects. Read a lot more. Talk people, bounce them bounce ideas off of people. And um and I like bouncing ideas off of people, about which more in a moment. And um and then when it comes time to write a book

Uh I will actually write a book proposal. Um, even if I have the deal already done. So for like I have a two book deal, like I I have to I have to write another book. Um, but I'll still write a proposal for this next book, maybe forty page proposal. uh which allows me to figure out is there a there there? Is this something I really want to work on?

Um You know, uh I think But I think a lot of things sound really good when you're just shooting the breeze. Um It they sound less good if you have to say, Can I can I explain this?

Can I explain this idea? Who's gonna buy it, why it's cool, why it's original, why no one else is doing it. uh can I explain that in a coherent written document. That's a tougher order. And so not everything lends itself to that. And I will bounce ideas out of people. So I had so Actually it's funny, you mentioned Kevin at the beginning of the show. Um I had this one idea where I went out and

I I went to I I made the pilgrimage to uh what is it what do you call this town, Pacifica. Pacifica. Um Yeah, and um made the pilgrimage to Kevin's house and said I got an idea, I want to run past you. Uh, for a book.

And Kevin was one of the people who said That's not a very good idea. And And uh and unfortunately he was not

the only one who said that. And uh More fortunately, depending on how you look at it. I mean if he's Yeah, no, no. Actually fortunately, you're right. Fortunately he was he was not the only one who said that. So I I abandoned I end actually ended up abandoning that idea in part. Because he was another Brick in the wall of people saying no, no, no.

Let's pause there for a quick second. Do you mind sharing I don't think Kevin would care at all. Uh what he or other people made as arguments against you pursuing this idea. And you can tell us what the idea was, or you can blur blur. Um Uh, but let's just say it had to do with morality.

Right. I wanted to write a book dealing with morality. Um And and and Kevin, who is a person of religious faith. who, you know, is extraordinarily well read. And among people who are very well read and very intelligent.

There are I think there are a dearth of people who who have strong religious faith. Um just an observation, it's not like a uh judgment one way or the other. Right. And so I thought he would be a s an especially good person to Run this idea past.

And um And um I guess he and others Um The theory of case theory of the case that I had, he and others had two cr criticisms of it. And they are not

Insignificant criticisms, Tin. You're wrong. All right. To begin with. Yeah. You're wrong. All right. And the second per the second criticism was You're right, but it's not interesting.

So Those are two pretty like that's those are Like those are significant critiques. Right. Um so um

So so that's so so that's how I so that's that's that's generally that's generally how I do things. When I came up with this idea for when uh it was an idea that was kicking around there, and one of the r one of the ways that I knew it was a good idea uh were were two things. Number one is that um uh when I was writing the proposal when I first of all I was looking at the research and I found myself wanting to do more research. Which is always a good sign.

Like holy crap, is that true? Well what about Bobityba? And I go look at Bobidiba. Oh my God, Bobidi Ba sa you know, and so I find myself wanting to do more research. Uh, that was one thing. And then when I started writing the proposal for that It it was like for me it doesn't happen very often, but there were portions of it that were just like Butter. I could just explain it.

So clearly like Here's what I'm gonna try to find out and here's why it matters. And it was like It was like that, you know, that um That scene in In Jerry McGuire where he sort of writes all night and you know

I'm taking the goldfish. Minus the goldfish. And I was doing handstands against the wall and everything like that. So Uh there and and that's some that's sometimes that's sometimes a good that's sometimes a good sign. Lack of or overabundance of energy. I think is

Undervalued. uh how much the project actually gives you more. Right. And I think that's a big I you know, here's the thing. I think a lot of writers, I think a lot of people who come out as journalists and and before I started writing books, Yeah, you know, post speech writing.

Sort of sort of as a You know, in even the for time. I did a lot of magazine articles, a lot of magazine writing, long inform magazine writing, which I which I which I like. And I found a lot of journalists. who would write an article, the article would do well. And they would get a book offer and they would do the they would they would not proper they were not properly vet it, um, about whether they want to'cause there are a lot of ideas that you, you know, maybe want to go out on a few dates with.

But there are very few ideas that you want to go steady with, let alone marry and have kids. And I think that books are basically you're marrying and having kids. Yeah. Um and that's a very, very, very high bar. There are there are a lot of great articles that should stay articles and make very mediocre books. And uh you know potential I suppose not vice versa, it's very rare that you go in the opposite direction, but Oh that's uh it's so I mean it's so off I I I read I read um I I want to say the name of it. I read one of those this I mean it send it to me a blur, but I read one of those Um

uh this weekend where somebody had an article that did really well. They got a book deal, they turned it into a book, and it's like okay, you know what? This art this thing has so much more impact. as an article rather than as a book. Um So I so I wanna

Mm. dig in a little bit on this tickler file that you review every six months. Because one of the most Frequent questions I am asked is how do you pick? Projects. How do you vet projects? And uh you mentioned revisiting every six months of a few mundane questions. In within Evernote, do you have a specific notebook that is tickler file or something like that? How do you keep track of all these ideas?

Um I um I I can actually look that up right now. I could I what I do is I categorize them. Um So

Uh So why I have so what I have is I have a giant File called Misk. All right. I'm just like shards, okay? But then I'll go through that and say, What wait a second, let me think of an example here.

Um Wait a s um Wait a second. Uh I um wow, I I'm collecting a lot of articles about um Here's a book I'm not gonna uh like it could be interesting at one point I said God somebody should write a book about courage. All right, like what about courage? What do we know about courage? All right, I'm not gonna do that. Uh if one of your listeners wants to go out and do it, God bless you. I think it could be really interesting.

Um so I could go into the MISC file and say Ooh, the Miss Notebook, I guess that it's called, um is uh w what do we know about courage? Uh and I and I'll well go to the MISC notebook and I say, Wow that I got a lot of articles about courage. What that's gonna They're gonna That's gonna birth a a separate notebook on courage.

Uh, and then it organized it that way. Um so I'll have uh I'll have notebooks of misc. And I'll have notebooks of of particular ideas that Um That that I have.

um that end up being fuller because it's like oh this this one has stuck around for a little bit longer than others. And and you mentioned during these reviews you might say, Oh, here's a cool idea for this, a cool idea for that. Oh, this could be really interesting. That could be really interesting. I would imagine Even after the the second glance and noticing that some of these ideas are coyote ugly and you're like holy

Shit, how did I think that was a good idea? Even after removing Uh the the the flies in the soup. You still you still have Yeah, you still you still have way You could drown under the weight.

of these kind of cool ideas. That you have many things that could be interesting. How do you then What are the parameters or thought processes, questions, anything that help you to get down to the three finalists.

Um Okay, so so what it would so um it would be um Uh what Uh It's it's really like what would I want to spend a couple of years on? And so

If I really sort of Like like maybe courage would be an example of that. It's like I'm sort of interested in in that. Um But it'd be like I would I would rather read a good book about courage than write a book about courage. I'm serious. Like that. And it's like and so when you when you go face to face with that and you start saying, Do I really want to do this? then I think you're Your soul at some level tells you, Hey

This is the you're into this, you're not so you're not so you're not so into that. Um And So that I think that's the I think that's the initial cut. Um but it's also the one reason why I so to get to the three finalists is actually really kind of intuitive in a in a in a way. And it and there's no match number to three. It could be four, you know

Um And Um And and so but this is one reason why I will write Uh

Uh Book proposals. Um, because It just forces me to It forces me to reckon with the idea.

And actually Like make it real. And and there's this principle that I learned in College. I had a writing course in college. Um, and I actually ended up giving a commencement speech around this idea. I'll spare you that for now. But the idea was the the idea was following. It was a revelation to me when I was, whatever, twenty one years old. So I had this so it was his writing, it was his essay writing course, sort of higher level essay writing course.

And I had a draft of an essay or something like that. I went into the professor's name is Charlie Yarnoff. He's still I went to Northwestern. He still teaches at Northwestern. And um So Charlie um gave me some feedback and I said and I was like all insistent, okay, I can fix this, I can Move this part over here. Maybe I do another piece over here. Maybe I knew another piece over here and he's like No no no no Dan that's not your problem here. The problem is that you don't know what you think.

That's that's why this essay sucks, this draft of the act. You don't know what you don't know what you think. He didn't say suck, but he that's why this essay That's why this says he that's why this says he stinks. And then he said something to me. And I and I don't wanna I don't want it to sound glorified or sound like something that is confected where a swell of music will come up behind me and this but what he said he said but it's words I've never forgotten. Truly.

He said Sometimes you have to write To figure it out. Sometimes you have to write to figure it out. And that was a revelation to me because at the time I was in this mode

very kind of traditional schooling mode where Sort of like we were talking about before. You do your research. Then you're right. You make your outline. And you're right.

And what he was saying to me is that you know the real writers are it's more dynamic than that. Uh sometimes you have to write to figure it out. And that was transformative for me. And so um that sort of gave me permission to say, Oh, I don't know it like I can change my mind in midway writing something.

I can start writing without knowing fully exactly what it is I'm gonna say. And to me that's the um That's that's why I write book proposals, is that I write to figure it out. And and a lot of times what I figure out Yeah. This is not a book. Or

This is not a book I wanna write. So I had this one moment not met a few years ago where a while ago now, actually ten years ago even more, where Uh my my I I sent it was like winter like late ha second half of December. And I asked I said to my wife and and I said, Hey, why don't you just take our guys, our kids, three kids Just go see your parents, just go for a week.

Right. uh or two weeks or something like that. You know, go and like I just I gotta get a book proposal done. I just I'm distracted. If like if you guys w when you guys when my family leaves Like I live like an animal. You know, um

I mean like a raccoon that got into the house. No, truly. I mean it is raccoon like in that I I literally eat out of containers, you know? So like my my family leaves, I eat out of containers Don't shave. And basically

work around the clock except for a few ESPN breaks. That's basically what I do when my family is gone. And so I will um so I so I started so I said I'm gonna write a proposal for this next book. And after about seven or eight days, I called Jessica At her parents' house, I say, Hey, I got some good news and some bad news. Uh the good news is that you can come home now. The bad news is that

I realize this is not a book. Um But it was only writing to figure out that that allowed me to do that. So I actually wrote uh uh basically one and a half proposals before writing the win proposal. uh because I I had a couple of ideas and I said, Okay, this is sort of interesting

But let me write to figure it out. And what I realized in in You know, two very important things. One, it's not a book. Maybe it's an article. Uh or two, it's not a book that I want to write. Um

There's There are a few things, raccoon behavior aside, uh That I want to Follow up on. Uh

The first is just uh to highlight something for people listening, and that is How liberating it is to think About writing as something you do not when you have your ideas ready, but something you do to figure out your ideas.

Absolutely. When did you learn that? I it's been I would say reiterated it's something that is easy to forget, particularly if you have Or something that you will willfully forget if you have a perfectionist streak.

and a penchant for procrastination. So if you want to wait until all your ducks are in a row, so you can go to the debutant ball. Pristine. Yeah, blow everybody's socks off. Uh it's easy to forget this, but the the sounds like uh The cat came back the very next day on the song, but the Kevin Kelly, just to incant his name again.

He is a he emphasizes to me Uh he's he's such a prolific writer. And emphasise this to me uh A number of years ago. And uh I I wanna say it goes back probably to McPhee.

uh who is also Much like you obsessed with structure. And uh if the there's a book I think it's called Draft Number Four, uh about it's has some f some really fascinating explorations of this for those people who really want to get into the weeds. He'll also do it graphically. He'll draw out diagrams of what the structure looks like.

Which appeals to me, but trying to stay on track here. Uh I would say Kevin is the most Well, you are the most recent person, but a number of years ago Kevin emphasized that to me and probably before that make fee. So it's it's h really liberating, number one, to embrace that, even if you're not fully convinced it's the case.

And uh I also want To give a little bit of context for people who may not be familiar with book proposals. So book proposals. in the world of non fiction books Well, I suppose I should take a further step back and say

In the world of non fiction. So if you're if uh in novels and fiction are totally different. In many cases, you need to you need to finish that puppy before anyone. will tell tell you if your baby is ugly or not. Which is has to be terrifying. Uh it must be. In in non fiction You create a book proposal before you write your book and

The book proposal And feel free to interject at any point, but the book proposal is in effect. A business plan. And an overview. slash executive summary for your book. And there's there's a l you find with the best book proposals and the best

startup pitches, which take the form of a deck, say a PowerPoint or something like that, very often. There They're exceptionally uh similar. the the the the ingredients that make a good startup pitch and the ingredients that make a good

Uh but uh that that is And I'd love to actually know what the structure of your book proposals look like. I mean I know what ingredients I would

potentially include in a book proposal. W what is the Table of contents. look like for one of your book proposals. Yeah, um I'd have to go back and look. I think they vary a little bit, but they probably have some core design elements. Uh one of them is

And it's question that I want to ask myself, which is Um Um Well What is this book?

Uh, what's it about? Okay, pretty simple s pretty simple question. Um Uh why and this is but I think the more important question is Why does it Why does it fill a need that hasn't been filled yet? Which is basically very similar. I I I use the same business plan analogy that you do on on book proposals. But it's sort of like a business. Like why

Why is it providing a uh uh uh wh why is it feeling a need that uh hasn't otherwise been met. Like Like we're like basically if you draw a map of the marketplace Um

What part of the marketplace of ideas Is does this Uh this is cover that hasn't been covered. Alright, is it this You know, uh um

So that so it's it's sort y you know, and I I don't even mean it in I I sometimes will use the high concept. Um I sometimes will use the high concept pitch of it's X meets Y, which I actually think is actually a very useful heuristic in figuring out ideas. So for instance, I pitch a whole new mind as Um Um

Uh Future shock meet seven habits of highly effective people. Um I thought it was a pretty good pitch. And so Very common in pitching films also.

Just to highlight that it's it's really useful. It's a heuristic and it basically to me it says If you think about a map of the territory, if you think about a map of ideas out there. Um, why is no one over here on this part of the map? Right? Like show me show me where show me show me where on the map

Your idea is All right, and let's make sure that someone hasn't gotten there first. Ah, and then tell me why someone hasn't gotten there first. What are they missing? Um, and so in the case of Wynn, for instance, I say, Well the reason they're missing is everybody thinks science at timing is an art.

But it's actually a science. Oh okay, got it. That's why no one is there. Um, and um it's all talk about what's it about. Um, where does it fit into the marketplace of ideas? Uh, why is it original? And this is also really important.

Who is it for? All right, and and the big mistake that that everybody writing a book and if there's One takeaway from this conversation for prospective writers out there. It's this. The mistake that writers make, and I think business people make too in their in their pitches, is when they say, Who's it for?

Who's the audience? Who's the customer? They always want to say everybody. And it's not. It's never everybody. All right, and and what I try to do is I even included a section of

Who is who is not going to buy that book? I will have a You have a section on who isn't the customer. Who is not Who is not going to buy this book? Because I think that that's the only way to think carefully about

'Cause books are not a mass medium. And even media products in general are no longer mass medium. Mass media. The they're no longer mass. And it's like who is and so I'll have bullets and they're saying

Who is not going to buy this book? Um and um Um And that and and and that helps, um and that helps define the audience too. And also I try to, you know And that that that's all that yeah, that's really all that it is. Uh but if you know

What the book is about. Uh, where it fits into the marketplace of ideas. why it's different from anything else that that came before it and why and and who's and who it's for I think those components are really essential. But that fourth component is and I say this to writers too, like I uh writers too.

Tell me who the book is not for. Tell me who's not gonna buy this book. And people have a hard time saying, Oh, everybody will buy this book. Somebody pitched to me an idea. Somebody came to me once with a idea of a book about um Uh Uh s uh somebody was giving asking for advice on a it was a book about um I I hope I don't I don't I think the book might have gotten published. I uh I don't wanna reveal the name. Uh it was a book about the history of yoga.

In America. Right, the history or maybe the history of yoga yeah, I think it was the history of yoga. And it's like Oh, okay, that's that's cool. So I think a lot of people um Who do yoga might be interested in that. And she said

Well, I think people who don't do yoga are gonna be interested in this. And I said No, they're not. Like People who don't do yoga don't care about the history of yoga. All right? There are a lot of there are a shitload of people in America who do yoga. Like that's a pretty good audience right there. But don't tell me everybody You know what I mean? And so um You know, um so so so so for me it's like you know, for me it's like like my book Okay, I know that the um

the um like this book about the sci the this book about the science of timing I know that um certain people in my neighborhood in northwest Washington D C Who read or of a certain age

And read only Um uh literary fiction And Seven hundred page biographies of founding fathers, they're not gonna read this book.

They're not gonna read they might be my neighbors, they're not gonna read one of my books. Um And so I I I think that's really, really important about who is the book not for. Well it's also an indicator of Focus and

logical Slash irrational thinking in a sense, right? Because if you're, for instance, just to digress for a minute, but if you're in the world of investing, where I spent a long time with early stage startups, seventeen years or so, if if they say everyone is my customer, there is a very real risk that if you give them X number of dollars, you give them a million dollars that

they could be developing Dropbox for say early tech adopters in the first wave and they they need to get from zero to ten thousand users. And if there is a If a eighty percent off deal for uh something like shopping mall circulars or something that they would jump on that and piss away all that piss away all their money. And uh yeah, we certainly I think books

A lot of books fail, and this is true of presentations too, from Too much miscellaneous information, not too little. Uh if if that makes any sense. Absolutely. It's it's a matter of it's a it's it's really just a matter of It's really just a matter of focus. And I going back to the speech thing, I mean one of the one of the pieces of advice to the extent that anybody ever asked me for advice on on giving s on giving speeches and whatnot is

Um You know, and and it sounds a little like a it it sounds like a Zen Coan ish sort of phrase, but it basically my point is. Uh say something important rather than say important things. Um, and like I find a lot of times people say something important Rather than say important things.

Yeah,'cause I think a lot of times people like to try to stuff within the skin all the things they found out, all the things that they know. And they end up not saying anything important. Um And so You know, um

Uh uh I I uh yeah, so um Uh So that's that's the reason for doing that's so anyway. You get the idea. Yeah, no, it it is and uh there are so many uh comparable

examples uh if if for instance you look for this This vetting of ideas. by putting together A short synopsis of some type. And there's one example, for instance And I I believe this is true. Uh I've I've certainly heard it and read about it a few times and I know

a fair number of people who work at Amazon, but they'd they'd have to confirm. But I think Ian McAllister, who used to at least be a uh general manager at Amazon, talked about this, is working backwards. And for for new for new initiatives, the product manager who would be in charge of developing, say, a new product, has to write an internal press release. which announces the finished project. Right. So that and and that has to focus on effectively exactly what what uh what you said, and I'm quoting here from a a a medium piece, but quote centered around the customer problem, how current solutions internal or external fail and how the new product will blow away existing solutions. And uh it's the same thing. It's the same thing. If you can't write that press release, like how on earth are you gonna navigate

the decision tree of getting to A product. that finds its feet. I mean it it could be very different uh difficult, not to say you don't iterate But uh it's it's a good I it's a good

filter through which you can at least catch The detritus that shouldn't make it to step two. Oh man, I have to say, I am your Hallelujah chorus on that press release technique. Uh I've I've literally done that. uh uh working with uh working uh I think it's helpful for like nonprofit groups that I'm involved in.

So nonprofit group. Wants to do a big project. Um, but they're all over the place. They don't know exactly what they want to do. And I literally did this. I said, I'll tell you what. Here's what I think the project is. Let me write a pressure release from two years from now.

Um and they'll send it around. And it ended up being a gr I I got the idea from Amazon too. It ended up being this really it ended up being this thing that was really, really focused. So the The black blah. uh group uh announced today that it was doing blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And it's like

You know, and then it had quotes and things in it, and it ended up being this this focal point on for for the whole organization on What are we actually trying to accomplish here? So I I'm a I'm a I I I second that emotion there. return to another thing that you said, uh which I'll paraphrase here as if everyone's your customer, no one's your customer.

Yeah. Another filter that or question that I use or have used, I'm not really in the startup game anymore, but have used a lot with startups because they'll ask me to review, say, a landing page and look at copy and messaging and so on, and before I will review it. Yeah. Because I'll if if with no further information I have to review it based on my pair of eyes and my perspective and my particular problems that I can try to empathize uh and put myself in other people's shoes, but I have to know whose shoes to put myself in. And so I'll ask them if you could only have a thousand people sign up for this.

Mm. Who would they be and why? Like describe for me. And this isn't a politically correct exercise. Like, what is like gender? Uh race if that matters, maybe it doesn't. Like where do they live? What magazines or websites do they read?

uh what is their household income. Like really get granular about what these people have in common, right? Like do you want all the readers of People Magazine? Do you want the two thousand people who attend Ted? Do you want something in between? Like really describe that. Right. And only once that's been done Can I actually give feedback on modifying

Any of the features or copy or messaging. on a particular page. Uh I mean it's it's these these principles really transfer to a lot of different areas. Well I I let me ask a uh just just a handful of additional questions and then uh maybe we can do a round two sometime. But the We've been talking a lot about

The decisions you've made The routines that you have. And although you're very self effacing, I mean someone could look at your bio And be very intimidated and assume that

You step up to the plate and hit home runs more often than not. Could you tell us about Mm-hmm. Maybe specific if you're open to it, difficult period that you've gone through, or a down period, challenging period, or failure. Could be any of those things. And

what you did to get back. on your feet or the decisions you made that helped you then Kind of G get back on firm ground. If uh if anything comes to mind.

Sure, sure, sure. There are all kinds of things. Um So I mean I hate to keep going back to the I hate to keep going back to the law school days, but um But I um

Uh I did leave law school after my first year. Uh, and I hated it so much that I went to India instead. And um I traveled around I traveled around India, which was a incredible life changing experience because I was a young guy. you know, whatever old I was, like twenty five, twenty six years old. And

You know, at the time It was you know, it was a while ago. So at at the time India was even cheaper. Well, much, much cheaper than it was. So if you're like Uh A twenty five year old dude. uh traveling on your own with a l tiny little bit of money in your pocket, you can make it go very, very, very, very far.

And so um So at the time I guess I felt like'cause I didn't do very well in my initial foray into law school. I didn't really like it. I was pretty miserable. I felt I had made a terrible decision, and I s some level just tried to escape. And And the way I got back into it was um

Um Essentially saying, Okay, if I'm gonna do this then Um, I'm gonna try to figure out what are the one or two things that I can find valuable in this experience. And just try to power my way through. And I guess that's all I guess that's all that I I guess that's all that I I guess that's all that I did to to overcome that. But I felt pretty bad about how

I didn't do very well. I didn't I didn't really like it. I thought I had made it like I thought I had made like a ruinous decision about about how my life was gonna go. And when I sort of kind of woke up and matured a little bit, I said, Okay, some people make like bad things actually happen to people. And I think going to India was actually helpful in that regard too because like okay, I'm not living in a tar paper shack with filthy water, right? I'm just

I'm not I'm not self actualizing fast enough. uh for for a twenty five year old middle class person. That's not a real problem. Um And so I think that sort of putting the problems in perspective and just trying to find some

Um some goodness In What you're doing next. And also I just like really driving specific lessons from these kinds of failures. And and I think that's another part that's really important to me is that rather than

rather than simply allow like sort of this hazy notion of what you learn. I'm a again, I'm a big believer in writing things in in writing things down. I'll give you I'll give you a better I'll give you a better example of that. Um Uh and this is I don't want to call this like a a a uh um a major failure because it's not that ver that's not that significant, but uh so I did a TV show for National Geographic and I work with uh uh T V series And I work with some really great people and we put on a really freaking great show.

And it didn't get picked up for a second season. And Um, and so it was disappointing, but it's not like a massive failure. It's not like anything real like in in life. But at that time what I did is I said, you know, I basically created a file and said, Okay, here's what I learned from this here are the things that I learned from this experience. Like one, I like working with really talented people. They uh people who help me perform better. Two, um, I don't like to be involved in projects that I don't have full control creative control over.

Three. Um Um working with people in traditional television can be very perilous because they're subject to all kinds of pressures that are of out of their control.

And so you have this experience Where things didn't go the way you wanted to. But if you actually literally write down the lessons I think you can get something positive out of it. And was the writing down of these lessons

More of a cathartic exercise or these would you go back and revisit that? You know what? I I I I like like for me a lot of times what I will do is for me, it's sometimes certain writing things down. It's simply the act of writing it down is enough to solidify it. Um, so I'll do the kind of thing where before a talk or something like that, I will

Um Like write an outline. Like like basically I'll I'll I'll know what I want to do and then I'll take notes. and write an outline of the speech and the points I want to hit. And then I will literally will not look at it. Like I sometimes won't even bring it up with me. I'll forget to bring it up with me.

Because the act of The act of actually memorializing it is really what gives it its its its oomph. This is uh but what I don't want what uh what I'm trying to say in a in a in a somewhat handed way is that Like

when you you want to Um You you don't want those kinds of lessons to be Hay Too much.

Uh you want to actually what like what specific thing that I actually Derive from this. Um and I think that's really useful. There's also a great technique that Tina Sealing has used.

Who's at Stanford has has used, where she talks about she she writes a failure resume. So she has a resume of all of her failures. And then with each one what she learned from it. When would she use something like that? Um I I mean she keeps it for herself.

But she would use the I see it's an ongoing working document, just like a regular resume. Yeah. Uh an ongoing working document that basically so you can look at it and say, Okay, what are the you know, boy, I made a lot of mistakes, but here's what I learned from it, and don't make the same mistake a second time. I don't mind making mistakes. What I don't like is making the same mistake. twice. With the uh

Two questions on India. Why India? And then second How did you decide to find the compelling I suppose.

benefits of continuing with law school versus changing course. Um Let's see. Um Uh you know what, I I think I okay, so on the second one, I think it was too risk averse to change course fully. Um

I think that would th I think that would have been too much. Excuse me. too much of like a narcissist injury just to like leave all together. Uh I I probably would have I probably would have felt like a an abject failure. So I don't even think that was in the cards. Um, so on on the why India, uh a couple of reasons. I'd always been fascinated by it. Um, I knew that that I could get around Um

that that I that I uh the previous summer I had been to Southern Africa and You know Um and it was the first I I I had never been out of the country, um Uh

Until I was twenty three years old. Never been um And so The first time I left the country I went to southern Africa. um on a I I got I raised some money to to do this pro to do some a project there. And it was that was a revelation like holy crap, this world is a lot bigger than I thought. And so I wanted to go to some place that wasn't, you know, Europe or some place that was a little bit different from a little bit more different from the United States. Um and so India was a place I'd always been fascinated by. It spoke English and it was cheap. That's that's a compelling combination for someone.

Leaving law school for a period of time. Well, when you're when yeah, when you're twenty five years old or however old I was and Um And you have like a little money in your pocket, but you can go you could go so far on so little money.

It was unbelievable to me. You know, especially if you're willing to like sleep over like take overnight trains rather than pay for a place to stay. Um Or you know, live in these you know, go to sleep in these places where there's just a row of beds on a

On a balcony and then mosquito nets over each one. So the uh I mean travel is one of those gifts that keeps on giving in a sense. Uh I would put books in that same category. You've written a lot of books, you've read even more books. Uh besides your own. And I'll just give segue into a couple of short questions. What what books

Are there any books that you've gifted often to other people or repeatedly to other people? Oh yeah. Um Uh So Uh the probably

Books that you're Oh I I mean it might have been Books that you've covered in this in your show here. So one of them is Bird by Bird by Anne Lamont. One of the greatest things ever. Um, I come back to that advice.

so many different times. It's it's a saying even in the pink household. uh where like we'll just say like like one member of my family will say to the other who's struggling, okay Bird by bird. Bird by bird.

Um And so um I I am a huge and I stumbled into this book. I remember I got I remember where I got this next book. I got it in the airport in San Francisco. uh in in the uh the bookstore in the San Francisco SFO.

Um and for some reason Uh, I picked it up because it had this really weird cover, but one of the first editions of The war of art. Um by Steven Pressfield. had this

Kind of. silvery cover to it. And I bought that book in the I think it was a compass bookstore in SFO. Just'cause it's wow, that's kinda cool. It's a silver cover and it's really short. And I I got it and it's like, Oh my God, I can't believe how good this book is. Um and so I even have a little sign on my desk here that says Beat the Resistance. So I've given that book out a lot too. Uh so Pressfield and Lamont and then um

Um Man, I have to say Victor Frankel. Man search for meaning. uh is up there too. I've less I I give it to be I I've given that out less

But uh that's a that's a hugely important book for me. Yeah, that's that's one of those books I really need to uh uh reread. Uh and I think you've you've actually spoken about uh let me get this right. I was about to say Animal House, but that is not right. Animal Farm or Oh my god, Animal Farm is Animal Farm is one of the greatest books ever. And and how you It's a completely different experience as a book. at different points in your life. And the Absolutely

Man search for meaning was probably I would say seven to ten years ago, and a lot has changed in my life. In that period of time, uh I think that that is worthy. Of a reread. Uh and have you it sounds like you've re read each of these books, also Bird by Bird, The War of Art.

then search for meaning yourself. You've read these more than once. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've read them more than once. Yeah. And uh But I'm not I'm not a like a chronic rereader. I'm like there there are some people who are regularly re there there are relatively few books that I have That I have re read. Um

Uh but the but those uh those I uh those I absolutely have. And once I you know, I had another experience in college. I I g the only thing I remember in college are shards of things that professors said. Like basically one liners. Uh but I had a professor once in college who in an American studies course he assigned us to read The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

So you're at a you're in college and your professor science you to read adventures of Huckleberry Finn, people are like oh You know, because like everybody read that book in high school. And and he said something, he said the following words. He says I know, you've read that book. But you

Haven't read that book. meaning the person you are today. And and that ends up being but that ends up being true. So when I've read uh I read Animal Farm at different points in my life, um uh and and had a different view on it. I've read Greg Gatsby at different points in in my life. Um I have seen the play uh Death of a Salesman. Um

Perform I don't know, probably seven times. And each one feels a little bit different to me. I had a completely different view of Death of a Salesman once I became a father versus before I became a father. Um I had another view of Death of a Salesman Um

uh before I knew about Uh uh you know, knew you know, had had read about psychopharmacology and mental illness and after I did. Um And so, you know, I I I I think that that exper I think those kinds of experiences are really

Fascinating. Uh Animal Farm, I was like, Oh, this is really cool. It's about the Soviet Union and power power corrupts. And blah blah blah blah. And and I and now I read the book, it's like okay, this book is basically about organizational dysfunction. This book uh who cares whether it's supposed to be about the Soviet Union. This book is about the Acne Widget Corporation and how screwed up human organizations are. Like this I I I think that uh animal farm should be in every organizational behavior class in an NBA program. That's another one I need to reread. Not a long book either. I mean I read that in sixth grade or something. I mean completely unequal. You'll see it completely you'll see it completely differently. That's a that's a great book. I've read nineteen eighty four multiple times too.

Also a very timely book. Uh these days. Oh, well I I have uh on that front, I I read uh uh uh The Handmaid's Tale for the first time. I was sort of thirty years late to it that I read and I love that book. Um I have a whole I'm not joking around, uh and if if you want validation, I'll send you a photograph of it. I I basically have a a a stack of books right here that are But that's basically Dystopia books. That includes

Philip Roth the plot against America. Um, and I cave you a butler book. Um, Sinclair Lewis, it can't happen here. Um, another sci fi book called uh Elliot by Elliot Pepper called Cumulus, another one called Infomocracy by Malcolm Alder. I'm a whole

I'm I'm basically I have a whole pile of dystopian works. Why is that? Why do you why do you like to understand I wanna understand the the current moment more more clearly. So well this might be This might be an appropriate next question. It doesn't have to be related to what you just said, but if if you could put A short message on a billboard.

Metaphorically speaking, to get A word. A quote. a question out to millions or billions of people, what might you put on that billboard? Well, it's interesting'cause I think it is related to um

what we're just talking about. Or maybe The fact that you asked it in this context made me related. Um, but one of the Um

one of the things that I would s I would write would be Assume positive intent. That would fit very nicely on a billboard. I see assume positive intent. Because I think and I and I've changed my view on this, Tim. Uh I I I I I I've actually in some ways

become Um I've sort of gone the reverse. Like like basically the the the the general view is that people are idealistic when they're young and cynical when they're older, and I've actually become less cynical as I've gotten older. Uh and

Um The other thing is basically on on politics, like you know, that like there's this old line in politics, like everybody dies a republican. Um You know,'cause like a as you get older and you have something to conserve, you become more conservative. I find myself going actually the o the opposite direction as I understand more about the More about the world. But the point is the point of all that and assume positive intent is that I think and it and it goes to our politics right now.

Is that a lot of times I I don't you know, I d I just think like your your default de you know this already. Our default settings are so important in any realm of our life. And I think a lot of times, um, if your default setting is that People have everybody you deal with has negative intent. That's gonna lead you down one

Pathway. There's no question about it. And and I and here's the thing. I don't think that's true. I really my experience as a human being is that Some people obviously have negative intent.

But most people do not. Most people actually have positive intent. So My view is that if you assume positive intent on the part of others And let them disprove that.

That's a better way to go. than to assume negative intent and say, I'm gonna assume that you have negative intent, Tim Ferris, until You prove that you actually have positive intent. Um I I think just doing the reverse doing the reverse is better. Assume positive intent.

Not that I don't I'm not Polly Anna here. I don't think everybody has positive time. But I think most people do, and if you just just make that your default setting you're gonna have better interactions with people, you're gonna learn you're gonna learn a lot more. Mm the default setting, default state as you put it, in this case creates

A completely different experience of reality. Uh absolutely. as you look at everyone and anything around you or innocent until proven guilty. And I remember you're talking about these one liners, these shards that that stick in the mind. I remember a

I can't. I can't recall Who said this to me, but they said If you go out one day, you walk around And

You meet an asshole. That person is an asshole. If On the other hand, you go out And everyone you meet is an asshole, you're the asshole. And uh if if you assume that everyone has negative intent,

You yourself become that which you loath. Uh and that's a really good point. And uh Very good point. I love that. Assume positive intent. Well Uh it also fits on it also fits on a billboard. It does. You know, that's the other I was actually taking that thing very literally. It was like a literally picturing in my head like what would be what could what could what could fit on the what could what could fit on the billboard.

Well I think that's I think that's a great place To wrap uh I mentioned A few things at the top of the show, Danpink dot com at Daniel Pink on Twitter. Facebook, Daniel H. Pink.

Is there anything else that you would like to mention as closing comments, request and ask of the audience anything else you would like to say? No, I mean we've covered a lot we've covered a lot of ground and You know, if people have listened this far, God bless them. I mean I I can't I I that's I even I'm not that ungrateful uh to ask for something more after

This kind of indulgence. Well, I I'm a big fan of your work. I have been for a very long time and for w I including Johnny Bunko. Uh which I still have to this day. So you may recall ages ago, lifetimes ago, I think it was South by Southwest actually, which is timely since I now live in Austin, Texas, you inscribed Uh you signed a copy of that book for me, which I still have. I've carried it with you. I I remember where we were sitting.

Yeah, yeah. So I appreciate it and I still have the book. And it's really been Nice to reconnect and catch up a bit. Uh Indeed. Yeah. Yeah. It's been fun. You know, obviously it's been fun to watch uh all all the great things that all the great things that you're doing and just how you this this massive audience that you've built and just You know, I've I've gotten so much I have a uh my dog ear I you know, it's too bad you we don't on video, but I could show you my dog eared copy of um Tools of Titans.

Would you say would you say Which is a great book title, by the way. Uh it is the only book title that came easily. It is the only one. All the other ones were agonizing. agonizing, agonizing sessions of brainstorming and picking f uh uh one of

the titles among many that I felt dissatisfied with Tools of Titans for whatever reason Uh yeah, thanks to the universe or whatever powers that may be or or or reluctant may have uh happened upon me, but that that is one that just kinda came and I was like, Oh yeah, no, that's that's the title. And that was it. I didn't I also didn't realize that you were in Austin. How did you end up in Austin? Yeah, it's uh I I have felt a gravitational pull to Austin for

a very long time. I in fact wanted to move here right out of college. But I didn't get the job at Trilogy Software. I made it to a final made it to a final round of interviews, which brought me out to Austin. Really fell in love with the town. The the baseline of friendliness and warmth here.

of neighborly feel is higher than just about any other place I've experienced. And Then Instead of getting a job here, I got a job in the Bay Area, which took me to San Jose and Mountain View in San Francisco for

the better part of you know nearly twenty years, which I loved for that period of time, but much like with books, I think that you visit places and your experience of those places Changes over time. Вот атракте міто The Bay Area.

I think has uh has has morphed into something else. And I I have also morphed into someone else. And it it felt it felt like uh felt like a good time for me to experiment with А не локація, фаун місьов. within the very almost inescapable conversation of tech. to

uh bi Just drinking the Kool Aid a little too heavily or repeating. Not necessarily bullshit but getting caught up in a lot of platitudes that are thrown around so often in Silicon Valley to have become part of the daily vernacular and that scared me quite frankly that I was like, wait a second, if I look back at the last five to six months,

How many conversations have I had that don't include the following twelve words? Or twelve expressions. Oh yeah. on both hands. Interesting. Interesting. And um interesting. Yeah. Where did you grow up? I grew up at the very end of Long Island. And uh was born a a towie in the Hamptons, which is a very odd thing to be.

Uh for anyone for anyone who's seen The Affair, I I have not, but I've heard that The Affair, this TV show that is is apparently quite popular. A lot of it takes place in this restaurant called the Lobster Roll, which is in Montauk. And I used to be a bus boy at Longworld. Nice. Yeah, so Long Island is is is where this This is whole. Weirdly I remember from four hour work week. I think that

You described yourself. As a Hellion. Hellion. Little Hellion. Good memory. Which is a great word. Which is such a great word. Yeah. But I but I realized I didn't have any ge geographic sense of where you Oh where you where you grew up. Yeah, I think the use of Hellion is actually in the dedication to my parents and my mom. I think that's right. I think that's right. You know why? And one reason I remember that is that I listened to part uh uh uh I got part of that book on on audio book. Um, and I remember at the beginning.'Cause you read that book, I'm almost certain. Yeah. It was Ray Porter who uh has has a voice that is easily mistaken for my my various mannerisms that I've developed now via podcasting. So that was that was Ray Porter, who did a great job. Oh yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. But I'm pretty sure that I but I know it's just a great work.

It is a good word. It is a good word. It's a great word. And uh I'm gonna try to use it in the next twenty four hours. When I have it when I come up with a good when I hear a good word, I try to you I try to drop it. in the next twenty four hours just because It helps reinforce it for me. Well, I'm gonna try to use surrogation and I am going to try to eat more hard boiled eggs in the next twenty four hours. Oh, you're you're golden.

Your life will change markedly if you start employing the principle of surrogation. While eating our belt eggs, everything will You're there every the sun will come shining up and the sun will will will burst out from behind the clouds and unip unicorns will scamper across your front lawn. Well my my dog will love that. And uh Dan, this has been this has been a lot of fun.

Thank you. Thanks a lot for having me. I appreciate it. It was a lot of really interesting And uh for everybody listening, as always, you can find links to everything. in including uh Dan's social website, the new book when and much more in the show notes. which you can find at team.blog forward slash podcast. And until next time, thanks for listening. Oh. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share

The coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite. of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com, that's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by WeWork. I love WeWork. I haven't had an office. In many, many, many, many, many years since 2000 or so, when I had my last real job, I suppose, in quotation marks, but when I moved from San Francisco to Austin not long ago, I decided, you know what?

I'm tired of working at home. I'm tired of working at coffee shops. So one of the very first things I did was to get a space at WeWork. I could not be happier with this change in my life. WeWork is a global network of workspaces where companies and people grow together. The idea is really simple. You focus on your business and WeWork takes care of all the rest, including front desk service, utilities, refreshments, and more. I also often have things shipped from Amazon and elsewhere. to my office at We World Here in Austin I've been completely blown away by the

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WeWork believes that creating spaces where people can connect and create meaning together, right? After all, if you are someone who has built a business model on the principles of the four-hour work week or elsewhere, it can be a lonely road sometimes. Even though you're digitally connected, it can feel very, very isolating. So in these spaces you can connect with real humans. And uh all the while Use space more efficiently and cost effectively, which makes you and your business better equipped to face the challenges of today and tomorrow. WeWork Now has more than 200 locations, so you can find great spots all over the world. So head over to We.co forward slash Tim. That's we.co CO. We.co forward slash Tim to become a part of the global WeWork community. At the very least, I encourage you to check out pictures of some of the locations around the world.

There are some incredible spots. So check it out, we.co forward slash Tim. This episode is brought to you by Ford Sigmatic, you might remember Ford Sigmatic, for their mushroom coffee, which was created by those clever Finnish founders. And when I first mentioned that coffee on this podcast, the product sold out in less than a week. It lights you up like a Christmas tree, which can be really useful. However, Recently I've been testing the opposite side of the spectrum, a new product. and that is their Reishi Mushroom Elixir to help me end my day to get to sleep. As you guys may know, longtime listeners at least, I've struggled with insomnia for decades. I've largely fixed that, but still shutting off my monkey brain has never been. Easy still isn't easy very often, and I found Reishi, which I've been fascinated by for a few years now, has been very, very effective and calming.

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So check it out, go to foursigmatic.com forward slash ferris and get 20% off this special batch. I don't know if they're gonna be making much more of this, uh, since it was made specifically for you guys, so do me a favor and try it out so that they continue to be open to experimenting with me to create products for you guys specifically. Check it out, for Sigmatic. That's F-O-U-R-S-I-G M A T I C dot com. forward slash Ferris F-E-R-R-I-S-S and get 20% off the special batch. And uh you must use the code Ferris to receive your discount, F-E-R-R-I-S. So again, go to forsigmatic.com forward slash Ferris.

and then use code FERIS for 20% off of this rare, exclusive, limited run of Rishi Mushroom Elixir for nighttime routines. Without any sweepers. Enjoy.

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