#314: Cindy Eckert (formerly Whitehead) — How to Sell Your Company For One Billion Dollars

At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. So now I'll do personal questions. Now it is like cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endocrine. No

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Hello, boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show where it is my job each and every episode to deconstruct world class performers from different fields, to tease out the habits, routines. Life lessons, negotiating techniques, favorite books, whatever it might be, that I think is tactical, practical that you can apply to your own life. And my guest this episode is Cindy Whitehead. At Cindy Pink CEO. on Twitter if you want to say hello. She is an entrepreneur with one point five billion dollars in exits. who currently serves as the founder and CEO of the Pink Ceiling, an investment firm and consulting enterprise nicknamed a Pincubator with a mission to mentor, invest in, launch, and build other women led or focused businesses. She believes that access to good advice alone is not enough to change the ratio of men to women in business.

And that is why she has personally invested more than fifteen million in two thousand seventeen alone to support the development of nine portfolio companies. I should mention just right off the bat That If you're a guy, don't let that bio turn you off in any way, in the sense that I wanted to have Cindy on the show because she is a good CEO and entrepreneur, period.

Very much regardless or irrespective of gender and the negotiating techniques, the approaches to deal making, everything that we talk about applies to entrepreneurs period full stop. Regardless of their genitalia. So Just wanna throw that out there because I really do think that good advice is good advice.

End of story. Now Cindy is Before that, also the founder of Sprout Pharmaceuticals, home of Addy, that's ADDYI, the first and only FDA approved treatment for low sexual desire disorder in women, which was sold for one billion and then reacquired in a crazy story. with incredible terms that we will talk about. in this conversation. So

With all of that preamble. And without further ado, as I always say, please enjoy this very wide ranging and what I found to be a very enjoyable. Conversation with Cindy. Whitehead.

Cindy, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I am very excited to dig in. And uh I thought we could start So we're gonna bounce all over the place as I always do. GP Morgan Healthcare Conference. I've heard some sort of murmurs about stories.

Uh and getting attention. or people to focus. Could you please describe for folks What happened? Awesome. So biggest conference in all of healthcare. I get invited in, I have eight minutes, do or die. So proud of this opportunity. I get in front of the room, you can imagine here's me in hot pink, head to toe.

I start to talk about women in sex. And the whole room starts to giggle. I can feel this giggle going off or you know, across the crowd and I'm panicking, like watching the clock. count down so I can remember reaching to my laptop, fast foring as fast as I can to a slide that was just brain scan studies. Studies of women with this condition versus women without.

Where in black and white we could see there's a biological basis to women's lack of desire for sex. So I turn I put the slide up, I turned and pointed. Long enough for it to be uncomfortable for everybody. I went silent. And when I did that I said, Are you looking at what I'm looking at? 'Cause I'm here I'm just here to talk about the biology of sex for women.

It's an important lesson for me of what I was gonna have to do to make people focus. Do the work. It was uncomfortable. I figured it was long enough for it to be uncomfortable for me, which was fair trade for them having made me really uncomfortable as they started giggling and wouldn't pay attention to me. Silence. Yeah. It's uh It's so powerful. Yeah. So so powerful. And I remember advice I was given at one point. Well, I was given that advice first by uh someone named Cal Fussman, his master interviewer, when he was going over some transcripts from this podcast in the early days. And he's like, No, you're too fast, like you don't leave gaps. Uh And you don't have to save people. Like let the silence do the work. So I just I I love that story.

And uh so speaking of letting the silence do the work, I'm gonna go silent for a bit'cause I wanna ask you Uh two questions that um might take What is your favorite business and why? Mm.

My favorite business of all is Wegmans. Which if anybody's from the North East, uh they appreciate this is a grocery store. How can you get excited about a grocery store? I'm excited because it's from my birthplace, Rochester, and I went there every Sunday. As a little girl, here's why I loved it. Because of the incredible loyalty. that they instilled. How do you get folks that are

cashier at the checkout line with jobs that may seem relatively unexciting. To show up every day with unbridled enthusiasm for what they do. So it opened years later. I moved my whole life and it opened in the DC area. And I went the first day that Wegman's opened in DC and I walked up and all of their employees were standing outside. holding their hands above their head like a W.

Mm. 'Cause they have a Wegman's pride, the Wegman's way. And I gotta tell you, that first day anybody in the entire D C metro area who'd ever been to a Wegman's showed up and stood in line to walk through this store. I love them for being a private Family held business that has that kind of loyalty and longevity of employees. How do they instill that? I mean, is it s filtering for the right employees who are prone to that to begin with? Is it Something else? I mean how do they develop it I think it is oh so simple. I think it is their basic appreciation for the people who show up and work for them every day. And they reward them through the right incentives, they reward them through the best benefits.

They help develop them, they encourage them when they lose weight. I mean, there are all of these incentives to their employees that make them truly feel that appreciation from their employer and also I think, you know, be proud to work there. They go home and have pride in saying who they work for. Yeah. So I started studying businesses I loved at a very young age. I had a conversation with uh Frank Blake, former CEO of Home Depot, right here. He's sitting where you are. And uh

They developed this orange apron cult as it was uh sometimes referred to, and the dedication that some of these employees showed is incredible. And uh his point was, you know, one of these systems they instilled was uh positive reinforcement by sharing stories on a very regular schedule basis of kind of standout. Customer service. Incredible. And um Yeah, it doesn't have to be complicated. I have to tell you when I f I sold my first business slate, uh I sold it to a group that was private equity backed and I ran into one of those guys, uh one of the bankers years later, and he said, That group you had

They were almost cult like. And I think he said it with sort of one eyebrow raised, like Hm they and I said Why, thank you. That's the nicest compliment I've ever received. So, uh yeah. You mean in the Apple way. Not the David Koresh way? Perfect. Exactly. So the next question.

Which will seem odd to people listening but will soon make more sense. Uh Is It's not really a question.

Or am I? I'll I'll be polite and make it a question. Okay. Could you please give me your three minute commercial? Mm. Okay. Tell me about yourself. Soup to nuts. Alright. Um Moved my entire childhood, so every year from fourth to twelfth grade.

I was in a different school, so I was the perpetual new kid. I think what that did is perfect my ability to stand on the outside of the room and look in. And really listen. understand motivations, understand sort of the dynamic which served me well later in life. At the time I went kicking and screaming, um I have a love that started very young in life for what makes businesses great.

So as I went through college, I was fortunate to have a great business professor who really cultivated that in me. So I'd have to report to her every week what my favorite business was, why, what were they doing differently, and along that way made a unilateral decision that I was gonna go work for Merck. So she thought I should probably broaden my options. It wasn't such a slam dunk. I told her, No, I'm gonna work for Merck. Um they weren't hiring when I got out of school, but eight months later they were and I got the job. Called her up, uh said, I got that job that you said I might not and she said, Great, we're going out to dinner and You're fine. Um so went to work for Merc, uh started in Pharma because it was Fortune's most admired company. That's why I went there. Want to learn from the best. I thought I would actually take it elsewhere and apply it. Didn't really think I was gonna be so fascinated with the science, fell in love with the science. um and the innovation, what it could mean in people's lives.

Loved what Pharma had the capacity to do, hated how they got it done. in the bigger companies. So I made the leap, went smaller. Smaller, smaller, smaller, um until I ultimately was maybe crazy enough to start it for myself. Uh built two businesses. Both in sexual health. People say why? I say Irish Catholic, of course. Um built a a business slate with the only uh long acting testosterone for men. Uh and that made me on the path of watching this emergent science for women. Um

when the drug when this drug was put on the shelf by the company that invented it. I made a decision to sell that off and take it on and got the uh only ever drug approved uh for sexual desire in women. sol that business and now as a pass through do nothing but spend my time reaching my hand back and trying to get female founders there to my kind of outcomes faster than I got there myself.

That was really good. I wasn't watching the time, but if I had to use my spider sense. If I use my spider sense, I think that's really, really close. Uh so I'm very impressed and For people who are wondering, what the hell is Tim doing? This is the oddest interview I've ever heard him. uh attempt to give uh it is because why? What are the last two questions

have in common. Why did I ask those two questions? You asked those two questions because I love to ask those questions of everybody I interview because I think that if you'll just be quiet and listen, uh which you heard a little bit from my background, people will tell you a lot about themselves and what their motivations are. So that was always probably my initial question in interviewing um and figuring out from people what they would tell me about themselves. What would you look for? Or or what were were there any particular uh sort of chequered flags meaning fantastic or red flags meaning hmm, maybe not a good person to pick. For for me, you know, it was discomfort with change. the lack of adaptability. Um because in my environments they were not the same structure that they might have been coming from. They were gonna have to be nimble, have to move quickly, uh to keep pace or the

I I always laid my cards on the table at the end of interviews and said, Here's who we are, here's this culture. Um uh we both should lay our cards on the table because six months from now I don't want us to be unhappy with each other. Um so I think I'm always listening for those cues that would indicate a fit for my environment. And uh and in it I think I was finding the people with a love of businesses. I often ask that question. what is the business that you most admire because I they've gotta have that passion. I think particularly in small and startup, you have to have a real love affair. With what it is that makes things tick. Mm-hmm.

What did you study in in uh undergrad? Business. Business. Yeah. What did your business professor do Uh besides have you report back each week on your You know I think she just took a special interest. I think she saw something there and cultivated it. So that she was

pushing me. So not only did she push me with the assignment that was above and beyond what she was asking of everybody else, but I think she also tortured me a little bit with um the doubt to see if I would push through it. You know, when I said to her, I'm gonna go work for Merc, she's like Oh no, your science grades aren't that good. I mean, she really w sort of pushed back like it wasn't such a sure thing, so she was constantly setting the bar for me. So w did sh now I don't know if you had a chance to ask her, but was she did she genuinely think that you would have trouble getting the job or was it a Yoda trick to get you to stubbornly then pursue

Pursue it twice as hard. A hundred percent a stubborn trick. Yeah. Uh and I think she knew that I have sort of a healthy chip on my shoulder of proving it. Um, so she was definitely pushing right at that button um of, you know, go out there and prove it. So yeah. Very clever. So how does one Start A

Uh farm a company without a farmer background. Well, far a background in that I've been in the industry for a long time. So had the right You have the industry experience. I have the industry experience. I didn't word that very well. Scientific background. Surround yourself with a extraordinary scientific team. I feel like

I've learned at the hands of some of the best uh in science, and I think I've always brought a lens to it of you know, what would work in the market. We were sort of a magical pairing. Uh'cause many times in science you can get enamored in the lab with things and not look outside to what's really gonna work in the mainstream. So it was it was a lot about having just a great team. How did you pick And I can play a doctor on T V now. Like.

Or at least think I can. Yeah, yeah. Or or via people's uh earbuds that they may have. How did you end up choosing the you said long acting. Testosterone. So uh paint a picture for us. Well I mean Because we can certainly get into t t testosterone and like HP TA and all this fun stuff up, but I I don't want to bore some segment of my population uh of listeners to death, although I'm fascinated by it. So we probably will get into it. But the how did you end up choosing that, right? So you have You want to start did it start with finding the opportunity and then I want to start a company, or did you decide I want to start a company and now let me try to find it. That was it. Yep. I I wanted to start my own company. So I felt like I had a you know hypothesis that's you'll make me asking how old were you at the time? Um or where were you in touch. I know that. I was in my early thirties at the time. Uh when I started it. And I had had one sort of career experience that was very informative. So I'd been at a company that was acquired and this they had been gobbled up by somebody who gobbled up a lot.

And then they had to integrate them and I got to be on that team. So I got this sort of put together of the perfect company. That was a great career moment for me. And then I got to go apply it in doing my own. And the reason I did it Is that For that same reason. I love pharma for what it Can do at three AM in the morning if you're sick.

You love pharma. Yeah. In the light of day. You probably don't. And it's because it is an industry that has a certain reputation. I thought there was a way to do it better. And I had the hypothesis that here I am driven and succeeding in these environments, but totally uninspired. There have to be other people like me. What if I got them together, gave them permission to do it on their own terms? Uh and that was Slate. I named my company Slate on purpose. Clean Slate. We were gonna do it we were gonna do it our way. And it was to go out and find uh Diamond in the Rough. An asset that had been overlooked. I loved the category.

I love sexual medicine. Um I'm a card carrying member of the Sexual Medicine Society. Who knew there was that? There is. Makes me popular at Cocktail Party. So I'd like whip it out. Um No, I it it there really is a soci uh society and it's because like actually our understanding there has really come Much more recently. Like it's a relatively new field, and yet we're learning such interesting things. And it's in conditions that You know You might not lose your life from them, but you will lose your life as you know it. When you're affected by these dysfunctions. So found um this inventor who had the only FDA approved long acting testosterone.

And interestingly it's How do you find someone like that? Uh you would think that I in a world of Sort of farm a discovery that the bones would have been picked clean. Yes, okay, so this is a great story. So s a a scientist that I knew from previous company was quoted in an article This gentleman reached out to him.

He said I don't really I don't know anything about this space, but I know somebody who's really interested in it. So the inventor was looking for a way to commercialize. The reason it had been overlooked is that Almost all of this product was being used off label. meaning that not for its indication was being used interestingly in women. So my journey started

Very early in this use of libido. What's the compound? Testos it was testosterone. Testosterone. Um a pellet. So uh it was put in long acting, put under the surface of the skin, released testosterone over a of sort of four to six month window. Yeah, so I so here's me looking at it going, Hm First of all, it should be used by urologist in men. I did a this crossover analysis, only one urologist in the country was using it. So I thought this would be a great business to build, and frankly, the delivery system.

is better than what's available on the market today if I thought of something that was custom made for men. They have to remember I've I'm big brothers. I'm used to being around uh guys you know, they can be sitting on the beach burning bright red and they still won't put sunscreen on or rub something on and the most common application for testosterone at the time were gels. Gel right. So this was like, hey, can you remember to show up three times a year to the doctor. I'm like sure, I knew that. Yeah. Uh all right, so the inventor reaches out to your friend, the scientist Who says, I can't help you, but maybe my friend can't.

And that's how it starts. Uh And the uh so the pellet, how do they now I'm thinking of for instance, like trembling, which is used in cattle in some cases, also popular with some powerlifters and so on, uh who do not use it in pellet form, but how is it how is it administered? Or how is it put into So put in in an in office procedure. At the end of it, it requires a band aid. Um so there's a device, a trokar, you go just under the surface of the skin, set it underneath the skin, put a band aid on and It was yeah. And for u Urologists who are surgeons, this you know in in office procedure was very simple. And the great news is it was half the price of anything on the market. So everybody was winning in this equation.

Why was it half the price? Just because you set the pricing. I didn't know. No, was it less costly because you were comparing it to other modes of administration which require more visits Hence it's not no. Mm mm it's just the market positioning. Yeah. Yeah. Fest. Mm-hmm. What was the I have a I have sort of a belief system around that in pharma about drug pricing. And so it was important to me to do that. We were making great money, building a great business, and we were doing just fine at that cost.

Right. Five hundred million percent work up. Exactly. Uh yes, and as as we may We may or may not talk about some people get into a lot of trouble for the question. Rightfully so. Yeah. Uh What other questions do you like to ask when you're interviewing people? Are there any other questions you find yield

um or are worth the effort that are particularly helpful or or other approaches to hiring. I'm gonna go back to silence. Isn't that I'm I'm gonna go back to I do more listening than asking. I ask the one open ended question and try to see where they'll take me.'Cause I think I'm getting a lot of insights into who they are and um by doing that. So I don't think there I don't think there are magical questions. I think there's ways to tease out cultural fit. And that is so important. I care much less about

The resume. Mm-hmm. Um the qual you know, everybody wants to come in and impress you. They haven't really m hit your doorstep unless they have the cred, I think, to be in there interviewing for the position. So I feel like it's my job to really tease out that cultural fit so that we're both happy with each other. So culture can mean a lot of things to Yeah. To to different people in this particular case Uh

And you mentioned the adaptability. Yeah. Uh Which, you know, in a in a small startup especially. I mean you're gonna be wearing a lot of hats and those hats make change. Yeah. So you need someone who's adaptable. What what else were you looking for? And what did it mean to you? Six things. So mine are pretty specific. Looking for I well, let me say uh overarching. I'm looking for people who wake up every day and make deliberate choices. It's all a choice, right? How you go through life. Yeah. Um, and mine were my six were they had to choose to be an owner. Maybe highly motivated by that ownership. Um

They had to choose to be bold. We were gonna make decisions a little differently. They had to choose to be quirky, because I needed them to feel that permission to be individual in my environment. Most of them were coming out of environments in which we we beat like, you know, sameness into people and homogenized the whole group. Um, they had to choose to be learning. That's fundamental to me, even as I invest today. So important to watch. what people do to learn every day. Um choose to be Family. uh because we were gonna be a small tight knit group and they had to choose to be appreciative.

And I think that that is how you go through life. You know, what is your attitude? Do you sort of marvel at the opportunity you have to make impact. Um, so those were my six choices I was looking for. How do you avoid false positives in the sense that If you ask someone Or if you lay out

If you say to them these are the six values. Never. Never.'Cause it doesn't you're you're listening to this story that shows that I think exposes those values. But if you ask somebody that, like do you choose to be quirky? Uh. Sure. I tree I mean it you know, that's a you're not gonna get I think the right response. I think you have to know to your core who you are and who fits. Um and then I think you have to ask the questions. I will say there is one other question I do always ask, and I ask How was the very first way you ever made money? Oh, I like that. That's a really good one. can't they never if they can't tell me, you know, I put like flyers in the mailboxes in the neighborhood and said odd jobs, call me or if they are like, Well, you know, my first job out of college was they're out.

Yeah, yeah. They they don't have that sort of mentality that's gonna fit. Uh one of uh one of my friends um Brian Johnson, who uh has done a whole host of very impressive things. He's he uh was the founder, I don't think he had a co founder, but let's just say one of the founders to be safe of Braintree, which then sold for a whole lot of money. And uh Sh when entrepreneurs come to him'cause he invests quite a lot now, yeah, and they say they want to start something, he'll ask them is that

An itch or is that a like is it is it an itch or is it a burn? Like that's cool. Uh and then he'll take them down that discussion to assess like do you really have Yeah. It can't be any other way with me to actually make it through this because it's not gonna be all roses and kittens and sunshine. Wait, can I tell you a quirky story? This is how it went in an interview. After you tell me one quirky story, I would like you to tell me a bold story. Okay. From uh uh your personal experience. Perfect. Okay. So here's m here's my quirky. If I had asked for this, it wouldn't have come out, but I'm in an interview with a young woman who wants to come sell for me this testosterone product. Um her brother had a a particular genetic condition that meant that he didn't go through puberty normally. So they have to have testosterone replacement from a very young age.

Nobody was more passionate about our product. She had witnessed what it did for his life, what it did for her family. But she never sold. So I was taking a big chance. And look, we are in young no sales experience. I'm going to be walking into urology offices having a pretty sensitive conversation about men's sexual health. And I'm I'm in the you know, interview with her and I'm going, Well, you know, I'm just kind of worried about And I didn't so much as get it out as she looked at me and she said Balls.

I said, You're hired. There was no doubt a recognition for me that this girl was quirky, that she was not gonna have fear in the office. Maybe that's bold. I don't know if it's bold or quirky. I'm gonna call it both. Um but it it ultimately became her nickname in the office. We called her duck balls. But uh never because we had a whole nother duck story. But we all name it. I'll take the bait. What's the duck? Oh th we called her ducky because she was always very, very calm on the surface, but like going like this a million miles an hour underneath. Yeah.

Okay. We're gonna come back to the bold story. Well first I should just as a public service announcement say to those people out there who do not have common sense. Uh don't just jump up and shout balls in every job interview because you think that's gonna show how bold you are. Fair enough. Yeah. So and if you do and you don't get hired.

Shame on you. Okay. I In the course of doing some research

Uh, I believe I don't think I'm making this up. That you give everybody nicknames, or a lot of your employees' nicknames. Why is that? Yeah. It is my quirk. I've had it my whole life. So I know my mother by so many different names that I think people who don't know who I'm referring to half of the time that have known us for years. Um You know, I did it because it

We'd love to story tell. uh we sit around the lunch table. We have a discipline of having lunch together every single day. And that was an effort to not, you know, no death by meeting, how would we all be on the same page and still create this sort of family uh spirit. And people get to telling stories and of course it's the one that you wish you hadn't told that ultimately arrives at your nickname. But the beauty of that is you know, we have a whole ceremony, a caricature, you get a nickname. And it's basically handed over at the lunch table, and you will never be known by your real name again. So this is like the knighting with by nickname. And at what point does this happen? Is it like your first week on the job and like All right, on Friday you're gonna be. No, I we need a little more time than that, but probably a month in it happens. Uh, you know, the caricature goes on the wall. Your name is is sort of uh never to be heard again other than your nickname. And the reason I did it is that you know, it was important to me that I was giving permission.

In my environment's permission to be yourself, to sort of show who that who that was. And it especially when you're building companies where a lot of your people are outside of the main office, or salespeople or other. It was a way for us to get to know one another. There felt like, Oh, I get it. Like I I know who you are, I've heard your story. And uh and I think it created this culture of locked arms, us against the world. We knew all each other's quirks. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, weird habit, but but one that stays to today. Uh all right, so

If I may not have a Mm. All right. This is gonna lead somewhere, but you know, I'm I'm a little sleep deprived and on lots of caffeine, so I'm just gonna roll with it. So a friend of mine Told me a joke recently. Yeah.

And I'm not gonna give the whole joke'cause it's kinda long, but this this tourist goes to Scotland, he's sitting in a bar, he's hanging out, and there's this old guy in the corner, and he starts like yelling at this tourist every couple minutes and he'd be like, Hey, laddy You see that pier out there. You know, I mean I built it with my own hands. But they call me. You know, Scotty the beer builder. N And he keeps doing this and this guy's like, What the hell? And it goes on and on and on and then he goes

He goes. But love it. And then Fuck one quats What do they call me So the point being Do people have the ability to veto their nickname? Absolutely not. Who gets to request their own nickname? That never works. That's true, that's not gonna work. I do. What what are some other examples? Aww, I have uh a guy named Spoon, which was born out of a story of this incredible bromance between him and another guy. They're still great friends to this day. Like they've so loved each other in this uh in their sales training.

that we said that all that was missing was them spooning. But look, th the story I'll give an example of how that story And that nickname stuck with the whole group. Actually this this guy got cancer. Um one of my reps and a pretty dismal diagnosis. And it was one of the other reps who

came forward and said, We're gonna do a virtual get well spoon. Card. And so, you know, every single person in the in the company had the spoon hanging on the end of their nose and sent it out and it was their kids and it was their dogs and it was their family. And I think that that didn't come from me. Like that came from somebody else in the organization. And I that's how, you know, as much as we teased him about it, in that really important moment, he knew we were all looking out for him. So this this makes me think of a few things and I really would love your thoughts on, of course, everything I'm asking you. Otherwise why would I ask you in the first place? But

Uh This type of joking around. I think is a really from what I've seen, a really critical ingredient in Almost any tight knit group that does big things. Sure. And uh I've also spoken with uh controversial guy for a bunch of reasons, but Jim Watson, all right.

uh co discoverer of the double helix. I mean the th that story is also a little more complicated than we have time for right now, but and you know, he talked about how these like small groups And my words not his, but like dick and fart jokes. Actually really important, like for like letting the air out of the tires and to Facilitate the endurance that people are going to need to get through the emotional hurdles. So my question is Uh

Like duck balls clearly not the most politically correct nickname. There. Right. Yes. But it's like that's why it's kinda why it works. Yeah. So my my question is In today's times where yes, there are like a tr horrible things that do happen yeah in offices and terrible misbehavior.

At the same time. This type of nicknaming and so on, I think is really helpful. So how How do you what would your advice be? Two people are like, Yeah, like I want that. We need that. Yeah. But they're afraid. Well, look, I think I think you know

It it's that laying my cards on the table. Yeah. When you first came in and interview with me. Here's who we are. Yeah. We you'll hate us in six months if you don't like this, this, and this. Um, and I think that sort of transparency for me of who we were and what the environment was like. And look, we never were offensive. There was such an an underlying affection for one another. Um, but it was this It gave us permission to have what I'll call constructive irreverence.

It referenced with me too. Like, you know, they give me a nickname and we knew that we could have that comfortably inside our environment uh and all be on the same page when we walked out into the world. I think it's really important. I think that Um, you know. not taking yourself too seriously, I think being self deprecating. Um When I talk to a lot of female founders who are, you know, sort of very frustrated by the injustices and this or that, I said you know, the best piece of advice I could have for you is perfect your sense of humor.

Along the way, because when it is something that is offensive. The best way for you to cut through that Is with humor. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It is the best way. And then actually the person on the other side might take a step back and think, Oh God. I'm such an Did I just do that?

Yeah. But you've given them room. To sort of ask for forgiveness in that. So I think humor is really important. Yeah, it also gives I mean this is having spent a lot of time in Japan and China also, where you know, in Chi in China like Gyolien is like to lose face, right? So you're giving someone the chance to also kinda recover from a stumble. Yep. instead of creating s what could be a really long standing kind of awkwardness and tension. Uh Do you have a nickname?

I too. It's H B I C Were you allowed to come up with your own nickname? Betty in charge. Who gave you that?

That there's always a secret nicknaming committee. It's never revealed. So yeah. It it just came to the table one day. It was written on my caricature. Uh I'm just going all over the place, but That's what I do. Uh what makes you mentioned uh new sales rep.

Yeah. Balls, right? Yeah. Then then henceforth you will forever be known as duck balls. Uh we're not gonna keep going on duck balls, I just like saying it, so that's six or seven. But the Sales position, really important position. It's like uh everything's a whole lot of talk until something gets sold. Absolutely, right? Yep. Mm. How did you train Your s what were some of the techniques or approaches that worked really well?

For either of your products for selling. Yeah. Uh I think that the best approach was that I gave them permission to fire. The D list. Um that you know we in sales, particularly in pharma sales.

You get on this like, you know, every two weeks, this is my routing. I'm gonna go out. Reach in frequency, reach in frequency. And I think that it It says to keep chasing your tail in situations in which you're never gonna pull it through. So it's rare, I think, to say to a salesperson, You know what, scope it out, if it's not move on. Fire'em. Wait till they call you back. Um and they're looking for the product and really focus your energy on those who are raising their hand quickly. Um so I think that was different, in at least in my industry. I don't think that's counterintuitive at all to selling, uh, but it certainly is in sort of the traditional pharma approach.

Uh w how is first contact made? Is it walk in the door, like brush the feet on the carpet? Hi, I'm here to see Doctor So and So, or is it an email? Is it what is What does the first contact look like with a prospect? Who is the prospect? And What's the right approach? What's the right pitch? Uh Prospect is the you know

Uh hit the front line of the office and you're you're actually dealing right now uh with the receptionists that you need to talk to to get back to see the physician, the nurse, et cetera. So you're you're going through all of those different steps to get to them our group was helping in in office procedure. I think they were highly valued for what they could um you know do in the office. They walked in in scrubs, uh it was different. They sort of walked right to the back of the room. Um so I think that it was that They're It was them knowing that they're bringing something of value. I think in sales you can feel like the one that is the pain in the ass that people are saying, You go all right, you're just taking time in my day. Um, and I think that they had enough confidence in what they were bringing that they didn't accept that.

Right, it wasn't death of a salesman. It wasn't. Yeah, exactly. And we had, you know, with that product we had this incredible opportunity so what happens today? You get a drug you go get it filled at a pharmacy, like you have no i you probably have no idea who the drug manufacturer is. With that product, because it was done in office, we had this incredible opportunity to own that relationship. With the physician. So I looked around and I'm like, okay, who in pharma does well with customer service? Oh nobody. Okay. So what are we gonna do? And I I took my entire leadership team to Zappos and we learned from them.

because we were constantly looking outside of our industry for who's doing it great. And so here's a story. Our most important guy, sort of the top researcher in the country, is from Harvard. And he did a lot of the early days testosterone research. He did that research on lizards. When he would buy our product we'd sh we'd put a plastic lizard in this box. Won't say anything, just drop one in his box. You know, we're we're trying to see what would happen. I went to visit him several months later. I walk in, I c can't get more Ivory Tower. I'm in Harvard. He's got like this beautiful mahogany bookcase.

Second shelf. All of our lizards. It made a difference. It was that quirky. So I think our salespeople were always they too just like we listened to each other for what our stories were. They really listened closely and celebrated that in the customer.

Not what you think from a pharma company, huh? Uh no, it's not. I mean what other companies did you borrow from? Or look at. Um Wow. Big and small. I mean I think that you know

All of the people who work for me were students of great businesses. They became sort of they mimicked that behavior that my business professor probably taught me. At one time we went to Seattle. Love Seattle, used to live there. Um went to the Pike Place Market. Spent an hour. Just went out. and learn from those businesses. I mean we were learning from beachers. You know, the cheese shop. What do they do exceptionally well? How do they invite people into the experience? So I can't say Zappos was probably our most formal go together, learn from them. Um, but constantly like reading or picking those businesses that we loved. That was a constant conversation at the lunch table.

If you were This could be Let's just say freshman year of high school, freshman year of college Teaching an entrepreneurship class. Yeah.

But the only way you could teach it is by recommending Books and Exercises or practices. Are there any particular books that come to mind that you would insist? They read or particular practices or exercises.

That you would have people do. I I would insist that they read Purple Cow. Okay. Mr Goode. Right. Yeah. I would insist that they read it about how do you stand out in a sea of sameness. 'Cause that's that's it. I think you know in in in terms of sales for sure, or for entrepreneurship, how do you stand out? What is gonna be your defining difference? Um and how do you sort of

attract remarkable to you if you're doing something truly remarkable. I don't think it's one size fits all. That would be my uh my ask. And I think that I would tell every entrepreneur Go sell something. Mm-hmm. If they've never sold anything. They better go go learn from somebody else. Go be in their sales organization and then take it back to your company. Uh so there's uh

fellow Austinite here named Noah Kagan who recommends uh one of one of his exercises that he suggests to everybody is the uh what does he call it? The coffee challenge. And the coffee challenge is just getting more comfortable with discomfort by for the next, say, week, every day you have to go into A coffee shop doesn't matter if it's Starbucks, doesn't matter if it's mom and pop, and asking for ten percent off of your coffee when you get to the checkout. And he's the first one to say like the outcome does not matter. Yeah. You just have to ask. And you can't say you're doing an experiment. You can't Make them more comfortable with it. You just have to ask for it. And it's really valuable. And I was trying I was I was trying to text with a friend of mine Uh younger guy who is uh

developing his own product and he's working on the product in the startup, but it's not at a point where he's interacted with Any customers yet. Yeah. And I mentioned this to him and he's like, Oh yeah, well, I don't need that because I make myself uncomfortable in all these following ways. And I was like, Well, why don't you just do it? Send me a photograph of the receipt, whether you get a discount or not. And he's young enough that we have somewhat of a a mentor mentee relationship. And uh he's like that's ridiculous. I don't need to do that. And I was like, Well prove it to me. If you don't need to do it, you're gonna get coffee or tea or water, it doesn't matter. Buy something, ask for it. And he's like, Okay, fine, like I'll do it just to make you happy. And he sends me a text. A few days later, he's like, Oh my God, like I had to walk around the block like

Exyching myself up to do this, my palms are sweating. And I got ten percent off. He's like, but it was so much harder. I it brought up all these emotions I didn't expect to come up, and it's like That's right. That's why you think it's gonna be easy. Well, it's confirmed. Love it. Uh This segues nicely to what I promised I would come back to, which is Baldness. What are some

events or Inflection points for you maybe. It doesn't have to be, but any stories of you choosing boldness. Mm-hmm. Well, I'll tell you, um probably my boldest choice was when I made a decision to dispute the FDA. And I was on this course, you know, it it's pretty straightforward. Um you have a pre specified endpoint, you go out and do the studies, you meet them with statistical significance.

you get to an approval provided there are no s showstoppers. And so I had gone out, I'd I'd gotten this drug uh from the company that first um first developed it. I'd sat down with the FDA. What do I need to do? We'd agreed. I'd gone out, I'd done the work. I'd gotten the outcomes. Mm-hmm. We got rejected.

What was the drug? This was um Addy, which is G D Y Y I. So at that moment It could have It was crippling for my business. Like we had done the work. We had done all the right things scientifically, and yet we got to a know And I was faced with turning back to shareholders and saying this is gonna be this many million more dollars.

At that time I was lucky, a woman reached out to me. And you know, people knew we were on this on this journey. And just for context for people listening, this is your second company. It is. Yeah. Sprout pharmaceuticals. Thought of or dubbed by the media the product at least as female Viagra. Just for people who are trying to keep it discontinued. So you know, people knew that we were going down this path, and I think that it was So fortuitous that she reached out to me at this moment and said, Don't give up. I was on the drug in in the research trials. I want to share my story with you.

Mm. She lived outside of D C. I was in D C all the time. I went to have a coffee with her. She walked into the room and you know, this woman was In charge. Type A recognized it right away. Um, you know, she walked over, she had her own business. She'd raised two beautiful boys, she had what looked like the perfect marriage.

by all our normal standards. She said, I have succeeded in every aspect of my life other than this. I'm waiting every day for my husband to ask me for a divorce. And I'm looking at this woman and I because of their sex life or lack of life. She had no interest. So she had this she had been diagnosed with this condition. What is the condition? It's called hypoactive sexual desire disorder. H S D is the moniker. Same prevalence as E D has for men. So E D is the most common male sexual dysfunction, H S D is

Women's most common. And it's a lack of interest in having sex. Uh Physiologically how does that manifest? In order to respond to sexual stimuli, you need the right balance of key chemicals in the brain. Your excitement factors and your inhibition factors need to come into play.

For some subset of women They go out of whack. They become imbalanced. Um that's how ADI works. It works on the restoration of those of those key chemicals. And we know it from these brain scan studies. So a woman who has this condition versus a woman with the normal ebb and flow of desire um for sex, put'em in a an MRI, show them uh sexual cues, their brains light up actually totally differently. What are the what are the uh chemicals? Uh dopamine and serotonin. So are excitatory factors and we has a transient negative effect on serotonin, which is an inhibitor for your sexual response. Say that one more time.

Um serotonin. So dopamine's positive, excitement for sex. Serotonin is inhibition and um the drug worked by this transient negative effect. So a negative effect on a negative for sex equaled a pro sexual effect. Got it. Yeah. Uh so I'm just trying to think. Okay. So the But it was not

Now we're not talking uh it's a serotonin has an inhibitory effect. Mm-hmm. Which is why what do we know of like the antidepressants, their most common side effect is actually killing your sex drive. Right. So interestingly, as drugs are often discovered, uh this drug was looked at for its effect on depression. And what you do when you're testing those drugs is you actually have to administer a scale to see how much am I killing their sex drive. Well, in this particular drug's case, it all went the other direction. It had a pro sexual effect. So at that time all of the study changed um to look at this condition specifically. Curiously, uh

quite similar well with I don't know if this is due to the tracking. I mean there's some f maybe folklore in this Genesis story, but Viagra. Yeah. Same story. Same. Yeah, absolutely. Blood pressure medication, lo and behold, a really very interesting side effect. Yeah, I mean so the so the The folklore goes, I don't know if it's true, but that the male subject would not give the medication back. Yeah. They're like, hey, this doesn't work for blood pressure. Hey, give us our supplies back. And they're like, No, we wanna keep them. Wait, what? So very interestingly, when I got to Addy, I was I built this great company for men. I was in this community, and the company that innovated this drug originally was gonna put it on the shelf. they were gonna walk away from it. And one of the great researchers in the field

Went out to women who were in the trials. And and said, like I need you to come in and bring your medication with you. We're gonna have just a normal meeting. And he was actually delivering the news. That they were killing it. That they were killing the development trial. And he filmed it. And the women were like this.

giving their drug back, handshaking, crying. And he said, You need to do something about this. Why wh why were they two questions. So why were they gonna shelf it? Yeah and Um w when you say got the drug, right? So there's a good deal a good amount of discussion and deal making I imagine that goes into that. How does one get a drug? Like what is the If you don't mind discussing it, what does a typical deal structure look like? Yeah. Oh mine was very atypical. So well then let's talk about both typical and atypical. Okay, happy. So first um uh let me tell you just about w how did we get the drug?

Um Lucky for me, I think I'd build a reputation in this field. um that the key researchers in it knew that I care deeply about women having access to medicine at the time. There were twenty six FDA approved drugs for some form of male sexual dysfunction.

And not a single one for women. Yep. And you asked why that company would put it on the shelf. It was very clear to me that it wasn't on the basis of science. Actually the scientific understanding is spectacular. We've come a long way recently in terms of this understanding. It was on the basis of the societal narrative. Boy, if you say women in sex people have an opinion. You know, it's not like d developing a diabetes medication. Unless you're diabetic you probably don't care.

Develop f something for sex, we all have a point of view. And I think that it was a conservative company. They said we're not getting into this. Uh we're not gonna get into this entire discussion. Okay, so was it a larger company developing multiple drugs? Large German. I like to tease. I said it's sex, we're German. We're out. That that helps actually promote the understanding, but you have to appreciate like cultures inside of companies. certain, you know, categories that they're in, this would have been paving a new frontier for How did you find this? So it was I was watching all of this um research being presented at the scientific meetings I went to at the Sexual Medicine Society meetings and really just cheering it on from the sidelines as a woman, like finally we're gonna have one for women.

And then they walked away and I watched a clinical community go from All of this excitement To this True sadness. in delivering this message to women. So I spent a year just listening to women.

After I did that I sold off. Um, my company for men and took this on. Hm but when I did that, I went to this company And I think it was With thanks to the fact that the clinical community the experts in the field

were so supportive of me that they gat gave me the shot. So they gave me the drug. I didn't pay for it up front. They they won. I win, they win. So they had a royalty. uh in the case that you know I finally got it to market and in a success scenario, but it was a bold move for them. They've never done a deal like this before. Um and I think they bet on me. How did you convince them?

I don't know that I convinced them as much as those who had watched me build slate and saw who I was and what I really cared about. And you know, I really cared about women having access to women with a Medical condition deserved access to a medical treatment. Not any of our value judgments on whether or not they needed it or the worthiness of treatment, but just

Purely the science had spoken, and we needed to listen. And I think they knew that that was my definition of success. I wasn't in this to create the next blockbuster drug, I was in it to make sure that women had access. And then they got to choose for themselves. Did you first deliver that message via email in person? How did you commit. In person. Yeah, in person. How did you get them in person for it? Uh Again thankfully, um, this kind of a key researcher reached out to them and said you need to meet with her.

I think she I think she can get this done. And he wanted me to get it done, I think for women. He was, by the way, the the principal investigator on the Viagra trials. So he got Vira approved for men and I I tease he would have to tell the story. I I in my mind the story goes he did that and he was like okay, fix guys. Moving on to women and he's actually spent almost all of his years since then just working on women. Yeah, and researching. What's his name? Uh Doctor Erwin Goldstein.

Erwin Goldstein. Mm-hmm. I know. Yeah. If you don't mind me asking, and if we can't get into the particulars, it's fine, but I'm just so fascinated by this stuff. So in publishing, for instance, books. Yeah. My world. Uh

typical royalties would range from, say, twelve to fifteen percent for hard cover. Keeping in mind we're talking about books, right? So the the margins are very different. Uh I'm I'm sure. But then it's there there are fairly typical advance ranges for certain types of books. Advance on royalty, and then there are fairly typical royalty rates. I mean there's very little deviation in the traditional deals, which are still very, very common and certainly predominant. What does that look like? In pharma. Broadly speaking. We don't have to talk about your deals necessarily. I mean but

You know, it's t in t farma typically, if you had this type of discovery, you would go out and shop it. If you as an organization decided not a fit, not a fit in our, you know key areas of focus or whatever, you'd put it out there to auction, people would bid, they would be, you know, buying it on the basis of sort of a projected, uh, you know, ultimate kind of peak sales. And so ours was so different. I don't think the royalties look all too different um than as you describe, but um but it was really a very unusual deal. Okay. Usually you're buying it for a hefty upfront that is anticipating peak sales.

Got it. And is that an advance on royalties just like books? I mean where you're getting sort of prepaid for the anticipated Sales. That's making a big bet. Like that's somebody coming in and betting on that future for it. So you know, you I buy it, you go away, it's mine now to you know, to further the development. So we, you know, we were had uh interesting I can't say it was a partnership. Um they just ultimately got a check if I was successful. Uh and maybe I even surprised them. How do you get it through the FDA? Well I'm telling you, I was talking about that moment of boldness of the rejection. And um And that decision to fight them. And I was fighting them because I had eleven thousand women worth of data.

That's why I was fighting them, because I knew that the science had spoken. It's also a large sample size compared to I'm sure a lot of the other twenty six Extraordinary. So we're talking in the seven to eight hundred patient range vis a VRs. I mean Vibra were big trials, four thousand. Yeah. Um, but we were, you know, a mul uh several factors higher than that. And a very different path. So I think ultimately, look, ultimately I went on the science. But what had to happen is we had to listen to women. And I think in categories where we have

n we have natural bi unconscious bias. We'll call it unconscious. Conscious, unconscious bias. Um you really do have to spend time with the people who are affected by it. So even if you look at things like AIDS І тук вось. for us to really appreciate what needed to happen. Our job as a drug company is to characterize the benefits and the risks.

with great rigour in trials. Ultimately The FDA's job. is to protect patient safety if there's a showstopper in there. But otherwise, it is to turn that decision over to patients and the providers.

And because of again, I think all of that feelings we have about sex, I was told all the time, I I said this earlier, Cindy, why are you such a crusader in this? Nobody's gonna lose their life from this. And what I said is go spend time with these women. They're losing their life as they know it. Mm-hmm. it's affecting how they feel about themselves. Our sex is a lot of how we show up in the world, our moxie. Um and if it breaks down in the bedroom, it is breaking down over the breakfast table. Yeah.

Absolutely. The uh Uh and I might be butchering this, but I've Red. you quoted as saying something along the lines of uh in

sexual dysfunction in males, we assume it's biological and in sexual dysfunction in women, we assume it's psychological. Or not we, but Most people. You certainly don't, but many people. Society at large, for sure. We absolutely do. We sort of pat them on the shoulder. When I sat with this woman outside of D C and she told me that you know she'd succeeded in every aspect of her life other than this, I saw the portrait of a woman who turned on herself, like, Oh, if only I bought sexule lingerie, if only I read fifty shades of gray. And when I saw that, I said to her, Hey, mind if I show you something. popped open my MacBook, I started showing her geeking out, showing these brain scans. And I turned to her and she's Crying.

Mm. And I thought This is why I'm gonna do it. It's the validation that this is real. It's not just in her head. Um, and that really was a defining moment for when I said, I'm gonna I'm gonna fight the FDA. So

Tactically speaking. Motivation. Yeah. How do you do it? It is actually a path available to um drug manufacturers. I like to call it the road less traveled to take them on. Um but it was a path in which To their credit. What happened was a lot of public conversation. So they opened their doors, they invited in women who have the condition, they asked them a number of questions so that they could have a better understanding, I think, for impact, for how they would define success. Um, and then ultimately they asked us to do you know additional work along the way.

And they assembled a body of scientific experts to vote. Yes or no? It's an incredible process. So you know, talk about the nerves in the room. I went in this day, it was a panel of twenty four. It's called so it's a dispute resolution path. I see. Um and then there's something called an advisory committee, which is the FDA can go out, assemble experts you almost go on trial. They get to read all of your data, they get to ask you the company questions, they get to ask the FDA questions, and then the public actually gets to speak at the microphone. And on that day By a press of a button, they vote. Would they approve it or not, based on everything. And so I can remember looking at the screen and my hand shaking with my phone and they overwhelmingly voted to approve it. Again.

Science one. It had always given us the answer, but we just had to Listen to women. What what were their objections? the with the initial

Like rocky territory that you then had to overcome via The dispute resolution. You don't have to get into it. I'm just curious. I I I think it was just additional study, additional study. We are very protective of women. Um in the process. I think what we have to be careful of is that we don't become paternalistic. in in terms of being so protective of women that we are

Not allowing them to have choice. And and here's why I say it. Twims. We had looked at data sets for men that had. Benefits and risks.

Make no mistake, all drugs have benefits and risks. And we had said Okay. And we turned over the decision to the guy and his provider. we were being protective to the point of not just characterizing those benefits and those risks. giving women that information and letting them make the decision for themselves.

So part of the reason that I'm asking we don't we definitely don't need to get into this right now,'cause even though it's called the Tim Ferris show, it's not me being interviewed, so I'll try not to be longwinded, but part of the reason I'm so fascinated by this is that I'm in the process of doing my best to help uh get both MDMA and s psilocybin through phase three trials. So very much top of mind for me. Yeah. And yeah, fortunately MDMA I was recently designated uh uh a received breakthrough therapy designation. So which is fantastic. It is awesome. Uh and the the results with PTSD are are truly Astonishing. I mean the magnitude of effect is is just so incredible. It's like sort of twenty two percent FC psychotherapy alone, seventy two percent FXE.

And of course you have to look at how that's measured, but with the aid of just a handful of sessions. In any case, that's why the reason why I'm digging so much. It's very much of great interest. Uh Okay. Where to go next. Uh so you've sold two companies. Yes. Right? At least. Yeah. Two. to an entrepreneur who is someday thinking of selling a company

Uh or in the midst of maybe uh on the cusp of about trying to sell a company. What advice would you give them? Mm. Okay. Um the first is uh be prepared that if you sell it, it is both exhilarating and excruciating.

I think you don't anticipate that. You know, it's the Isn't there the billion dollar happy ending? And I think you lose a big piece of who you are uh in that moment, and that's something you're gonna have to wrestle with. So that's in a success scenario. But as you prepare for it, um I think only do it if you believe it makes good on the mission that you hold dear. Like have a real sense of I'm this is my baby. But in the hands of an adoptive parent, it's gonna go to the next level. And when you do that deal.

make sure you have safeguards that they really will raise that child you want them to. So I'll tell you a lesson learned from me. I sold my first company. Um and typically when you sell a company, it's a structured transaction. You get an upfront payment and then hopefully you participate in the success down the road. Right um And certainly that's good for your shareholders. And in the first time I sold it was a best efforts clause. Best efforts can hide a multitude of sins. Like, describe describe a best efforts clause because this is really important. So everybody should listen very, very closely. Well look it if you're gonna participate together downstream, you don't want somebody to just say, Hey I'm gonna make

My best effort. To have this work. You better have some definition around that. I did that the first time and I had pain when they were deprioritizing it, when they didn't have enough salespeople on the product. And so lesson learned when I went into selling sprout, I had real rigor around the definition of performance obligations. you will have this many salespeople, you will spend this much money on marketing. You will do you'll make this commitment in terms of disease state education. And what that ultimately meant for me is The opportunity when they didn't do it.

to get the product back. Okay, we'll we'll definitely get to that. And this this best efforts is really important. I wanna just emphasize it. Don't I mean it's it's certainly been said that you know the man or woman who acts as their own lawyer has an idiot for a client. So unless you're trained as a lawyer, get proper legal advice, please. But on that point, don't worry as much about the bank. You know, people are always saying, Well, who did you use? What is the bank? Worry about your transaction attorneys because of how you write these contracts in any structured transaction. They are your most important asset. Absolutely. And this is this is important in so many different uh types of

uh contracts. Uh whether, for instance, I've I've run into this quite a lot in many of my contracts, right? Publishing. Yeah. Television. Uh if you are a product developer or inventor and you want to license something for A royalty well, you only get a percentage of what is sold, and what happens if they decide it's just not a priority. Absolutely. Do you have an out Well well, how scary is it to think that somebody might take it on and kill it? Yeah, totally. I mean competitors wanting to sort of own the market. Like often you you're bought by somebody who has products in the category. What if they're just buying you and they're gonna kill your product?

Yeah, absolutely. Or doing a fishing expedition to determine how they can kill you or steal your employees. Super common. Yeah. So I So so you you talked about the second company. Wha what are some other pieces of advice for people uh thinking of selling a company or in the process of selling.

Have well. Yeah. I was selling it early. Um so from that point, uh, at least in my case, it was actually having the full plan to go it alone. I couldn't go out and just couldn't count on hey, this really needs to be in the hand of somebody who can march it across the globe. I needed the plan of going it alone if they never showed up. What do you mean by that? Meaning so, you know, I had the whole plan to launch it myself, the ability to hire, I was capitalized to do all of those things, like never go into a negotiation running out of money in the bank because you think you're gonna sell this grand idea that could be realized in the hands of somebody bigger than you.

Um, I think that's a huge mistake. I I watch a lot of people do that, um, thinking they're gonna sell it then. And and in fact If you want to command the highest price. You better have that ability to say Bye. I'm doing it myself. See ya, I know you want it. I'm gonna do it myself. I mean, and I think people sometimes um mess that piece up.

Yes. Unskids. Yeah, I mean it doesn't if you don't have alternatives, it does not matter how great a wordsmith you are with your negotiating If the other side knows that you are shit out of luck, you are fucked. And um the or you not necessarily I mean look. Could you pull some Jedi Mindric? Yeah, maybe but

Uh remember I was given advice long time ago because I've I've just negotiated so many different types of deals. Um I'll come back to why that doesn't actually conflict with the lawyer advice that I just gave. Um The uh The piece of advice that comes to mind that was given at one point was expert, like master negotiator.

uh done a lot of business development and bought and sold companies, I mean, just dozens and dozens of times. And he said to me He who cares the least wins. Absolutely. And it's like the person who has like take it or leave it. Absolutely. That's true. And um I think you know, also some That's some advice that I remember in the fundraising world which is slightly different, but and we'll actually guess we should talk about fundraising too.

it was, you know, if you want money, ask for advice. If you want advice, ask for money. Yeah. Uh so there are all these but the the actually accurate the reason I said uh just for people listening that the negotiating deals does not conflict with the get a good lawyer. Is that And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but lawyers are really, really, really, really, really critically important. I work with a ton of lawyers for a ton of different things.

However. Uh, you have to recognize, like really study the incentives and how lawyers are rewarded and how they are punished. Uh so you'll you if you want to be very business forward. to spec out the basic terms

Of engagement. And It doesn't have to be a letter of intent, but to have the basic So that you can disqualify a deal before you pay lawyers to put twenty hours in it. So the

Yeah. The second company. All right, so Sprout. Yeah. Hurrah hurrah, you get the FDA approval. Well, before I get to my real questions, is I'll give another question, which I guess is just small. What did you guys do to celebrate? Did you do anything to celebrate? Like and how did you feel like when when you when Button, button, button, button, holy shit. Yeah.

Like how did you feel like in that moment when you first realized what had happened, like ha wh how'd you feel? So I have to tell you, it wasn't at the moment of sale, it's at the moment when we won that advisory committee. And what we did was, you know, my team had They were blood, sweat, and tears, true to the cause. They'd prepared so hard for this day. I actually threw a victory party the night before. And I can remember the chairman on my board came up and said, Wow. The night before you got the news on the advisory committee? Oh yeah. Because I because you were waiting you were waiting f you were like all right, we're gonna get the results tomorrow. Yes. And I thought win or lose We will have given this.

Uh Like we will have taken it to the map. And I needed the team to go in with that. They had w they had won the night before that's really before we ever got to the outcome. And I can remember the chairman of my board came over and he said he's a Brit like Cindy. Like I I'm not sure I've ever seen this before. I'm questioning this one right now, but I'm gonna go with it. And uh I think that was really important. We celebrated the victory of having gotten it to there and like really having cared. When we sold the company Um, I think that was the whirlwind of you know, there's a lot of emotion with it. I woke up the next day, I'm the same person, nothing's different. I still gotta go to work, I still gotta get it done. Um, I think people think there's some kind of m remarkable transformation, um, you know, from one day to the next. And I think it's actually often a little bit of sadness.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, I mean having spent time with a lot of people who just have more money than they could ever spend or even in some cases give away before they die. Uh If yeah, it rarely fixes as many things as you would hope it does. No question. The day of the approval, I will say, we waited. So what we knew is that The day we wanted the Adcom just informs the FDA decision. So it wasn't the day that we got the approval. So they take their information in, they get to go back, deliberate, and ultimately the FDA comes forward with their decision and you wait. They actually send it to you

Late in the day. So I flew the entire the entire company was in. We were all s standing around, you know, pink balloons everywhere waiting for like a a victory. And what was actually so c sweet about this is that um all the other companies on the same floor, we on the tenth floor of a building. He used to say we could almost entirely fit in an elevator and we were gonna change the conversation about women and sex forever. They waited too. They stayed and I can remember like them showing up and it was seven o'clock at night and they're like, Oh my God, how are you guys doing? Is it okay or are you not gonna get the approval? And so that was fun that you know, so many people we're I was so lucky that as small as we were, we had this extraordinary group. Cheering us on. We had this incredible bench. So as as the fearless later. Yeah.

Yeah. So you didn't know what the verdict was gonna be. I mean you had high hopes. Sure. But What did you have anything prepared? What were you gonna do if it came back and no? Celebrate.

That we did it all. Okay. Um or wh wh if you had to imagine if you can't remember what you would have said. Like did you even think about it, really? I mean what would you have said? I didn't imagine a scenario in which we wouldn't win. And and the reason is that I really thought That at the end of the day.

We all had the capacity to get out of our own way. Get beyond our own bias. And look at the data. And I think that in particular, look, I I think that part of the characteristic of female leaders that I love is in in is a certain empathy.

And I felt like that data informed through a lens of empathy of having like walked a mile in the shoes of these women and now we having all we have all listened to them. I just I believed we would get there. I really did. Um, so I don't know what what I would have said to the team had we lost is I would have said You know, I'm I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you for putting it all in.

And for carrying that deeply to see it all the way through'cause it was grueling work uh and long hours and a lot of a lot of punches in the face on the way to get there. Welcome to entrepreneurship. Exactly. That's right. Oh you're gonna conquer the world, huh? Yeah. Okay. I will tell you I have to get back to the mouth guard? Good,'cause you're gonna need that. Alright, I'm going back to your story for the people thinking about selling. I think there is like Be a little bit reluctant to give it up. It's your point about who like you know he who cares or he or she who cares the least in the room. Um when we went into our first negotiation with um the company that ultimately bought it, Uh, we went into the room, uh, they made an offer. They said we're gonna walk out of the room. And I was gonna say this one more time. So the company that was offering uh to purchase us, we went to this room, they were very excited. Uh this is for Sprout, yeah. So uh we we go into the room, a company's come courting, they wanna buy us.

Um, and you know, they they throw an offer down. And they said, We're gonna let you guys think about that. And um and leave the room. One of the things I had done is I had prepared binders of all of our data, of all of you know our research, and it was huge. We brought'em into the room and like you know set them down for effect.

And um They left the room and I looked around at my team and I said, Okay, when they walk back in Within five minutes we're gonna all be out of our chairs and we're g walk out of the room. They were like what? So they come back in the room and I said Thank you so much. We're very flattered by that offer. We're gonna do it on our own.

And as we got up, a woman who worked for me, she had all these binders seen at her and she's looking at me like Sho should I take the bind or something like that? Leave'em. And so we we walk out of the room and sure enough, I knew that they would call me back to get those binders. So they had a reason to re engage, which was of course the you know Hey, Cindy, we have these binders. I said, No, no, those are for you. You can keep'em. Um but they they called back a little while later and said, Hey, we still have those binders we gotta give back. So so the the conversation continued. I mean that's negotiation, right? Um but uh but it was a fun story. That's so for people listening who are like oh that's one in a million, no. This shit works. Yep. And um

I mean it's Yeah, so th so a couple of couple of thoughts for people listening. Okay, number one is Uh so there is a book called Getting to Yes, Harvard Negotiation Project, et cetera. I think Getting Past No which is another book written by one of the original co authors is actually a little more realistic, but they talk about the Batna, the best alternative to negotiated agreement, right? You really need to think this through. Like but negotiation you is it rewards those who come in prepared. Uh

And I remember one point I learned so much. I mentioned I was lived in China for a while. And it was in China r where I really learned the the flinch. So so the and realized wow like you can actually improve so many deals just by letting someone negotiate against themselves. It's not like you're making a counter offer. And s it's like if you try to buy anything at the time, I guess it was uh I think it was just called Silk Alley in Beijing.

Where you could buy you know all the like counterfeit Jordan shoes and all this stuff, right? And it they would always start off like ten X with any rational Person to pay. If they've lived in China. And then you would counter and they go, Ah Like you've just, you know, club their dog or something. I mean they like the emotions would come pouring out is so exaggerated. And you would see these

Foreign exchange students immediately capitulate. Or reverse it. Oh no, so I'm so sorry. Like I don't mean to offend you. And then they'd walk off and you just see these people laughing. And so it's like the you know, the kind of the flinch or silence letting the science do the work. And um The one that I encourage people to use And look, read the room, know your

No the person across the table. But is just to a before you counter with anything, if you're not gonna use silence, just saying something like Is this the best offer you guys can make? Mm-hmm. Is this the best you guys can do? Or and don't be condescending about it, but just be like Okay, just so I'm clear, like i is the is this the best you guys can offer? And I would say Depending on who you're dealing with, but like the vast majority of the time if if it's not someone who's paid to negotiate.

You're gonna get something. Uh but you have to be comfortable sitting in that silence. So Once approved. So my my homework says it could be Inaccurate. Three competing offers.

Right. Okay. Yeah. How d did those were those forthcoming? Did they they did they were they inbound or or did you were inbound. Okay, they were. They were. And Walk me through then how you in

A competition slash auction environment. How do you make the most of that? Well, for me I think the winner emerged, um, not on the basis of the price, but on the basis of willingness to keep my team. That funny. That was actually uh and that was had been important to me when I sold my previous company. So in both of my companies it was really important what happened to the people who came to work for me. So that that became one of the differentiators for for me in the room. But no question when people know that others are interested, right? You do want that competitiveness'cause definitely it drives up the price and

And everything else. Um but that was my that that's how I reached my final decision. For me, it was that uh that we were gonna go to the distance together, that it was still gonna be realized, I think, on our terms. And uh and that there was a real commitment to making it broadly affordably accessible to women, that they were gonna march it across the globe because I can pull this data, this incidents data out of the US, out of the Brazil, out of you know, the UK, wherever it may be, it's the same for women worldwide. Um so that and that that factor of What became so attractive to me in this one company that came forward who bought us. Valiant. Sure. So when Valiant bought us, it was that they they did this deliberately. So they had acquired a a lot. They were highly acquisitive. Um they were a company with a lot of McKinsey folks, um, and maybe fewer operate traditional operators. And they really their greatest criticism at that time, it has changed, but at that time was really no organic growth.

Yeah. And so I think they saw this product that had a lot of interest. And an ability to s prove it. To prove it from scratch. that they could grow it inside and they saw in me an operator who'd been there done that. And so that deal structure was such that

Here I could go out, run, I had all of their resources, the ability to do it on a much bigger scale than I could have on my own. And I got to keep the team who cared so deeply that they got it to the finish line of approval. And you had deliverables and measurables instead of best efforts. Absolutely. We'll do our best. Absolutely. How many sales planet you've been doing? Thanks for that handshake, but Yeah, no, it's not. My mama told me right. That's right, exactly. So pretty pr It and and it wasn't extra you know, these weren't extraordinary. They were sort of market standard for what is brand new category drug launch one oh one. Uh so there were reasonable expectations. So So let's fast forward. I mean we could spend a lot of time on any segment of your story.

Yeah. This is just so amazing. And I've seen this is not as it's it's rare, but it does happen. Like this kind of thing does happen. And it's happened to a few of my my friends in in tech actually who've had the opportunity To tak then take back their company or product or whatever it is that they've sold. So what the hell happened?

Well what happened in the world. So if if if you're comfortable, I don't I mean I think it's public at this point, so how much did Sprout sell for? A billion dollars up front. Billion dollars. And we had a pretty impressive kind of structure transaction on the back end. And um So Tris Comas for you Silicon Valley fans. And Uh

And then what unfolds. Oh I mean I couldn't have written it for a movie. I really couldn't have. Um so you know, we uh we got the drug approved in August. Everybody had come courting after that advisory committee meeting. We announced our intention to sell and then it takes time for a deal to close. Um so in that interim time, I'm just running. I'm building a sales force, I'm getting ready for launch. Um and the deal is coming to full closure.

Eleven days uh into our deal closing, the world basically went sideways for Valiant. And you know, if you follow Pharma, you certainly know they were at about two sixty a share the day they bought us. They've traded as low as eight, uh, in the last two years, and it was just For those people who don't know why did that happen? Um, accusation around drug pricing issues, um and also a non disclosure of a pharmacy relationship that they had that they hadn't disclosed. So it really just

I it went kaboom, and it was So sad for me for all of these salespeople who'd come to work for me. I mean, they weren't in the field a week. before this happened. And you know, me being who I am, um Here's my baby. We've just gone out.

the world is sort of collapsing higher up. I'm not getting information and I'm Um screaming quite wildly. And uh and I think that just didn't fit for them at that moment. They had enough distraction. They did not need Cindy Whitehead screaming as well. Hey Lady, we'll have enough stress. So I was I was invited to leave. Um I actually they they called me and they said, It's clear you no longer want to be here to which I'm pretty sure my answer was like hell And they said, Well, as it turns out you are no longer gonna be here And so um you know, and it I I have to tell you, at that moment For me. Like

Founder. Yeah. Sometimes you have to go. You know what? Like I'm the founder, and maybe there will be a personality conflict. This is their you know, they've taken my baby, they've paid good money. Um, and so In an effort, I think, to So check myself.

I thought I need to step to the sidelines and cheer everybody on. Yeah. And I need to be paused about this and optimistic that maybe with me removed it will it will be uh championed inside of the organization. And certainly I wanted to protect all of my people who were still there. Um, I think if I have one regret, it's that I didn't speak up then because what happened after I was gone, um, is that they surely not I can't even say slow, but surely pretty rapidly dismantled my whole organization and then everybody was gone. Now there's more to the story.

There is because um because of those important uh performance obligations I had an opportunity when they Weren't meeting those to go back and open a different discussion with them that ultimately became the basis of a lawsuit. And um

And you know they ha they in this time they changed CEOs. Uh you know, we've had a really positive it became clear to me this was not going to be an area of focus. again, remember they had bought it very intentionally. But it was an outlier. It was different than what they had normally done and they didn't quite have the infrastructure inside to put that focus into it. And so I think what was started off as a lawsuit to be able to get through the noise of everything they were going through ultimately became a discussion and

What's the win win here? Like nobody's winning. We're not winning, you're not winning, women aren't winning. And I think in exchange for uh dropping that lawsuit, they decided to give me the drug back. Okay.

A a few things. Uh Yeah. So in exchange for dropping the lawsuit they decide to give you the drug back. Uh so they did not charge you for the drug?

Correct. They gave me a loan. They gave you a twenty five million dollar loan loan to help you get started. Yes. They did. And

Uh, did you uh did you and other people who had equity in your company when it sold have to give back the billion dollars? We did not. That's a good deal. It's a good deal. Yeah. We're pretty we're pretty happy with it. But but let me tell you For my shareholders, I do think this speaks volumes to them. We could have gone we could've stayed the course. Like we had a pretty explicit contract, um, in terms of a lawsuit. Not a single one of my this had to be approved by my shareholders to do this transaction. Not a single one of them voted against it. Even though they can just to clarify, did it have to be you s you're saying by All of your shareholders or uh majority or board of directors? So it was no no, all my shareholders voted. Okay. It had to be by a majority. But

But not a single one voted against it. Not a single one. And I that speaks volumes, I think, to who can who funded me, what they really cared about. Um, because an easier path to money. was probably just staying on the path that we were on with the lawsuit. This is the path of getting it right. And this is about it always having been about the women and really defining success. the way we want to. You know, we had a great outcome. for a company, um, and now we have the ability, I think, to just do it in a different way in a way that we're all proud of.

So what's I mean I've I've Plenty of questions, but what's what's next then? for that particular drug. Uh what's next is one oh one. It's access. That women have access to the product. It's education that we remove some of the myth and misconception I think that surrounds

quote female Viagra and the condition itself. Um and then I think it is marching across the globe. Who's gonna do that? Okay, so you're gonna you're you are you gonna be at the helm? Absolutely. Okay. So Huh.

So many, so many. Questions. And Alright, so let's talk about

Rules. For a second. Yeah. Alright, so there are I think you've drawn this distinction. There are a lot of rules out there. Mm-hmm. And there there's some that you're generally

Uh better off following. Uh as they might the rules of law and order. The rules of law and order. Regulatory. Yes. And then there are Unwritten rules or just socially reinforced rules. that you have broken or routinely break is just a matter of personal best practices.

Um Yeah. I I embrace underestimation uh as an opportunity to surprise people. And I think that I break rules in terms of it it's frustrating to me when people say yeah, but nobody's Nobody does it that way.

And I I'm saying, okay, nobody does it that way, like show me a rule in which like I cannot do it that way. Right. And if they don't have an answer to that, um be they a lawyer, a consultant, whoever they may be, uh that's an unacceptable answer. I think they just haven't dreamed up a new way to do something or a better way to do something. I think that for particularly Women in business I think women are bound by it. many more unwritten rules.

And uh, you know, I m this TEDx talk I gave was about this, like what's the DNA of a female rule breaker? Because I think that it takes this extraordinary Sure. Injustice. uh and the empathy that surrounds that for them to really break a rule. Um and I I that certainly is my story of, you know, fueled by the injustice really informed by listening, why would I move forward with something that nobody else was willing to do. Um, and I think there, you know, there there's rules about

Do you talk about money? I like to say uh in the pincubator I want my goals to make women really rich. Uh that that elicits a certain response. I do these pajama parties in the pincubater. Uh eighth grade girls. The the pincubator. We're gonna come back to this. Yeah. But Could you just give us a like a sentence or two on what that is? Sure. And then we're gonna come back to it. make early bets on breakthrough first.

either by or for women and they all become part of my pinky bater. Uh so got ten different companies in there right now. All with a female lens. Mm-hmm. Yeah. How are you gonna balance that with having a great team. Yeah. Having a great team. It's just, you know, it's it's certainly not all me. I I didn't get to here without having had the most incredible people surround me. Many of them do today. I mean I'm with people who know all of my stories because they've been uh on the ride with me for thirteen plus years uh in the through the startups. And so

It's always about the other people you surround yourself with. Yeah. So let's let's I mean so far we've talked about Uh not necessarily the highlight reel, but we've talked about a bunch of huge successes. Um

I'd love for you to talk about So this is from uh a bit of my homework also. So I read, and um you correct me if this is wrong, and I'd really love to to dig in very briefly. So for people who are listening, this isn't gonna be all startup finance for the next Thirty minutes, so Just sit tight.

Uh this this will apply more broadly. Um But I read that one mistake that you'd made at one point in your business was taking money from someone you d either didn't know very well or didn't trust. Can you talk about what you learn from that and to the extent that you can disclose whatever you're comfortable disclosing. And then

How that informed later. Decisions or approaches. Okay. So really and truly early days of Slate. Um you know was fortunate that

This drug was adopted by sort of the top tier and they were out at medical conferences talking about it and all of a sudden I'm getting phone calls in from other people like Hey, I write testosterone, why has nobody come by to see me? So I I really didn't have the capital to build a sales organization on my own. So I went out with a company that would build a sales organization around it. And You know, did the deal

All the right intentions seemingly couldn't have departed more more radically in terms of our philosophy on how you compensate people, on how you treat people and because you didn't have the money you paid them in equity? I I I so they yes, they had a seat on my board. Um they came into this company, had this partnership with them, and it was that inexperience, I think in my first company of going, God, I need money. God, I need this partner, like I need to I need this for scale, and not being discriminating enough in terms of really who they were. And so it was painful because we really didn't get along and it had the ability to cripple the company. Um, and at that moment that I could cut the deal.

I had Like swallowed hard. hired as many people as I could, our eight people We're out selling their forty. Cut the deal.

And uh ended ended it and went off to the races. But it taught me the lesson of How long did it take you to cut the deal? A year. I had a year agreement with them and it was it it took years off my life. Like it didn't feel like a year. Felt like a lot longer than that. But it was a lesson of who I was gonna raise money from going forward. So I had to buy this is the perfect sort of segue to it. I had to buy out their position. I needed them the hell off my board. Yeah. 'Cause they couldn't they could have stayed on the board even with that deal gone. Sure. Um so I had People coming in to try to buy it out.

And actually one guy came in Um V C And he came to our table. Like one of the things I want to do is I spent time with him and then they came out to the to the glass table where we have our lunch together every day. And he was Hideous.

To one of my sales rep. Just like the the attitude how we treated them And I thought, absolutely not. Like I'm not doing it I've seen how this movie turns out. Let's not do that. The next the next group came in. Um it was a Family office. Also came, sat with my table, wanted them to be there.

They said nothing. I was like, Oh my God, I'm not gonna get the money we're going under. It was so important. I needed to get the this group out. And um and they called me back and they said, We're gonna invest for what we saw at the table. Uh. So they were the right person, and I now started to understand I have to have people who care about who we are and our mission. Yeah. So I raised actually almost all of my money through um

Basically uh angels or family offices. Very unconventional and farming. Uh a hundred million dollars. All right, so a hundred million dollars through angels, I'm guessing we're not talking like twenty five thousand dollar checks. Correct. Okay. Yeah. So how does one how many of these people did you know in advance? before raising the money. Or like that that's it's doesn't need to be an exact number, like roughly what percentage of the people you raise money from did you know beforehand? Three. So okay, and how h roughly how many were there?

Uh, we were at a a little over a hundred in the end. So how the hell? Do you do that without it becoming your full time job for Um, because I think it it grew in You know, it it grew through word of mouth. They it was I was fortunate that they introduced me to a group or they introduced me to groups. I had sort of pockets of investors that I treated almost like they were units. I have an incredible group of investors in Fort Worth, Texas. I love to go visit them. Um, you know, it it but it was um so flattering I think that they helped me get there. I came from

n no background where uh I had access to this kind of privilege, right? I didn't know these high net worth individuals. Um, but I was fortunate that once one of them came in, they introduced me to others. And I don't know it you know, the the joy I actually was great joy in communicating with them. I didn't see it as a full time job. I actually saw it as this opportunity for an incredible network who today come in on a lot of my companies um as well and invest in them. How did you choose People Yeah.

How did you vet them? Because I know companies with Let's just say in contrast, right? You could certainly have say a V C venture capitalist or someone who comes in, writes a huge check and they say, All right, number one, I need ten, twenty percent of the company and I want at least one seat on the board. Right. That has its potential pitfalls. Sure. Uh I've also seen situations where Startups.

that are super lean, right? Yeah. Small company have a ton of people on their cap table. So taking a ton of investors and all of a sudden they're getting the hug of death basically because even if the investors are trying to be helpful. They're managing communications with a hundred people. Yeah. So how do you how did you think about avoiding

That I mean family offices are kind of a unique animal, but how did you th how did you think about avoiding that potential problem? I actually think it I was hyper communicative myself. Oh okay. I was like I I went on the um the offense on that. I was you know, they were part of this with me. Like they were part of the ride. I was gonna turn around to them and say, How you gonna help me? You can introduce me to What am I what am I not thinking of here? I mean, these are very impressive people. Um, so I think I didn't wait for that to choke me. I I if anything, they would they would tell you like I communicated a lot. I expected a lot of them. Um you know,'cause I felt like they they were part of it. They were owners in this and they had to perform not unlike the owners um of my employees. Hm. Alright, so I promised we'd come back to the pinky bitter. Yeah.

So what is the pink ceiling? So the pink ceiling is uh investment firm Meats. Yeah. w hell of a great place for mentorship where we make bets on

early stage companies buyer for women. Mostly all health tech. Um and not only I think disruptive first, but often products that can be catalyst in social conversations we care about. What would be some examples of products for companies? So a company with a technology that detects state rape drugs and drinks. How does it Do color change.

So Put your finger dip your finger in a drink. Touch your finger to the decal. Changes colors if there's a date rape drug. I mean I've two nieces in college It's sad that we need a product like this, but we need to put power in the hands of women. Um great company. It sort of the quintessential fit for who we are. Love the tech, first of its kind, patented, um, but also just

you know, love the the social conversation it promotes. flushable pregnancy test coming out. Uh great female founder. Um I think only a woman would have thought of that. You know, it's got only it's it's not your mother's pregnancy test, right? And and in so many ways. Not only in the you know the eco way, but I think also because we have this belief that all women want a certain outcome when they take a pregnancy test. And uh and some women want to get rid of the evidence, including women just who are going through infertility and don't want a daily reminder. Um that's a product uh have um a great young female founder who has a biometric sensor. um to recognize devi deviations in mo in movement.

For athletes, um, so they could start to signal when you're moving differently and may injure in the future. You know, ja and she's such a story. I mean Um Mother was a Russian mail order bride. wanted to move herself and her daughter to a better life, uh, came over to the US.

in a pretty poor neighborhood, she thought my only way out is if I get a scholarship in athletics. Um became A nationally ranked soccer player injured. Yeah, soccer's brutal. Decided, okay, I still have upper body strength, became a rower, got a full ride to Duke. Oh my god. And then invented this tech. What a beast. Lover. So the I mean that's you know, I'm betting on that when Ivana walked in the room, I will tell you, when she walked in the room I was buying no matter what she was selling and she did not deal balls for. No, she did not. I'm telling you, she had no I would I didn't tell her this at the moment, but I was investing'cause even if this wasn't her deal, the next one was gonna be. And so it's fun'cause I get to bet on these great

People. Um, you know, doing I think really interesting things. We're in Raleigh, North Carolina. Where I've built all my companies. What what are the what should people know about Rally?

People should know that Raleigh is um number two in the country in terms of exits. I think that surprises people in terms of pitch book data in terms of the multiples we get out of companies. So the next billion dollar company will come from Raleigh, how about? Uh just like who knew the birthplace of female Viagra was Raleigh, North Carolina. Um great startup scene, uh wonderful talent in that area. So the I'm gonna read a quote. And it may be off. Okay. But I liked it. And so I thought maybe I could ask you to elaborate on it.

Not sure where I found this, but I think it's yours. Uh we talk all the time about how women need a voice. We don't need a voice, we need power. Money is power.

Please explain. Or please tell me where that comes from. Well I I think it we just, you know, we're constantly in the discussion around women talking about needing a voice. What really changes is when women have power. The power that comes with money is to sit on the other side of the table and make the decisions. Two percent of V C funding goes to women. Two percent.

means we think half the population have two percent of the good ideas. It's ridiculous. If you consider it, what we need to do is get women to outcomes like mine so they get to sit on the table sit at the other side of the table and pick those things that they really care about. Not pass over a product for women thinking it's a Niche brand. Um, and I I think it's also just this comfort with the conversation around money. I started talking about these

Pajama parties in the pincubator. We have eighth grade girls come through. We do all these drills or setting their sights for the C suite. And the first group we ever had come in, one of their teachers came and she said Oh, Cindy, when they were coming over here they wanted to ask you about money, but we told them. They shouldn't do that. I said, Oh no, no, have them ask me. And you know, the young girl who was asking me all the questions and getting to like real the real data, that girl is gonna create a big company and that's okay to have that conversation. I you know, even as a woman, I'm those are some of the unwritten rules. Um when I would

first got an opportunity to go out and speak on these stages to, you know, rising star female entrepreneurs or women in business. A woman came up to me and said You know, I love that you don't ever say That you sold your company for over a billion dollars. Next time I got up on stage, I said, Hi, I'm Cindy Whitehead. I sold my last company for a billion dollars because I was clear that that oh my God, I'm doing it. And I think that there is

The here's why I say it. Happily. Because Women will pay it back. They'll give it back to other women, they'll give it back into their community. There's plenty of data sources on that. And what I love to see and my greatest pride

has been the ripple effect of ownership. Everyone who came to work for me Got skin in the game. and to watch our outcomes and what it has meant for them in terms of freedom. And I don't really mean financial freedom. Like if you're in it just for the money, you're never gonna be successful. But it affords them not only financial freedom, but freedom to do the things they really care about. And I'm watching them either start their own companies or fund their children's companies. And that's what I'd love to see is a sort of army of pink ladies coming out of the pincubator who are

sponsoring the next group to do it. Well, I love that you also caught yourself or Even if you didn't have that as uh subconscious behavior made it a point to get up And say what You might have not been saying.

And I think this underscores something really critical, which is Uh we and this is not gender specific, anyone, we often think of the The external opponents. Right. Mm-hmm. And

how we might be restricted by someone else which could very well be the case and is the case very often. However When you're looking for unwritten rules, it's important not to just look at unwritten rules that are being imposed on you externally, but to look at the unwritten rules you are following. Absolutely. And I remember talking to um I'm not gonna name her'cause Yeah, I would don't have her permission, but very, very super successful uh female entrepreneur. And I asked her what she what what the uh some of the main challenges were that she thought women were facing and she said well she she mentioned quite a few, which you're very familiar with. And but one that I didn't expect was she said

Uh women need to learn how to ask for raises and and negotiate. Yeah. They just a lot of them just don't ask. And it's it's a I don't know exactly why that is, but I was like oh fuck.

And when I think about my uh the Leah Tasgraba, which was acquired not too long ago by Ikea or uh Tracy Denuncio or any any number of these women, like they are all so good at negotiating. It didn't even kinda cross my mind that I was like, Oh shit. I mean it's certainly true for a lot of men as well, but the point being I be really Cognizant of

And this definitely goes for everybody, not just women, but where you are following rules. Yeah. That А рилидженфорд. in your own mind. You can certainly experiment with bending. Yeah. And breaking. I I think a lack of asking for raises is also that discomfort or that like don't brag. It's sort of not lady like to talk about money or be, you know

capitalistic, if you will. Um, and I think that's a that has an incredible f effect. That maybe we're not so conscious of. Totally.

If if you were going to teach a Say f uh freshman class. Oh Uh Or a class. If you're gonna teach a seminar. Yeah. Could be Any age range. You could pick your audience. Could be female only, could be mixed gender, doesn't matter.

What would you teach? What would the seminar look like? It's like uh once a week, two or three hours a week. You can pick as many. You have as many weeks as you want. Well w what would you teach?

Th doesn't have to be anything we've talked about. Um, what would I teach? Um I think I would I would teach

How you I I would push people around how you're gonna make choices. and in life. I think that my my teaching would be, you know, how do you set out there and sort of remove all of those confinements in thinking. I I am lucky, I think, having all grown up in such a mobile childhood, um, that

I think what it taught me is you can imagine I was always physically mobile. Yes, physically mobile. State department. Yeah, in that I I was the perpetual new kid and always having to have that agony of what was gonna happen. And it turned out nothing bad happened. Yeah. Right? In in in retrospect. But I I went in anticipating that. And I think that really helped me. I don't know if that's a course. Is that a course? Can I can I ch can I teach a course and sort of b losing the fear what's the worst that can happen. And in helping folks go through that. Yeah, you could just have case study after case study after case study. I think when I do the the pincubator, I'm I'm teaching a a course in

really at its at its core confidence uh for these girls. And uh and it's confidence in the choices that they make and the um you know going all in when they're gonna do it. actually hear you elaborate on that because looking through my many, many, many notes. Uh one of the things that I highlighted where I was like, Yes, please, thank you for that Uh

Okay. Uh, let's see here. This is for fortune. question was what advice would you give early stage founders? And it was embrace the workhorse to become the uniform. I'm so tired of all the grandiose startups speak. The founders who declare their genius before they ever even execute it. So what I tell founders is don't tell me you're going to change the world, put your head down, do the work and show me. Okay. So

Assuming that's somewhat accurate. Uh I'm asked all the time. How do I build my confidence or how can I become confident? And

Mm the best answer I've been able to come up with, and this is just my perspective, is like you have to actually believe in yourself and the way you develop that belief is by actually getting onto the playing field and taking your lumps. Yeah. But proving to yourself that you have certain competencies. It's not about Like Stuart Smalley sitting in front of a mirror telling yourself how awesome you are and believing that and then going out and getting your face ripped off by the real world. Like no, you actually have to put in the time.

To earn the confidence that you then carry. Um Ha ha what has your experience been or how do you think of that with The Startup founders. Yeah.

I I think well, look, I'm I'm particularly focused on on women. And I think that Just by virtue of the numbers, they tend to be unexpected in the room. Um, I feel like my whole career is they're unexpected. I mean they're you know, by the numbers, like we're not expecting them to walk through the room and ask for the money. They're not likely to get the funding, they're you know, all of that. And I think that um that's certainly been the course of my career. Yeah when you say pharmaceutical CEO who sold her Who sold don't give a name, who sold the last business for a billion dollars. Nobody imagines me showing up in hot pink. I didn't look the part. I'm not I'm not your classic in any way. And I think that's been sort of the story of my career in terms of places I've gone or products I've taken on have been unexpected.

And so as a result of being unexpected, I think is underestimated. And so my my kind of key piece of advice is underestimation, you got two choices. think you can either reel back in frustration and self doubt, you can let that eat away at you. Or you can Gamify it.

As this opportunity to surprise people. With your competence. And so I think that Um you know for founders I'm looking at how they Reframe the frustrations, the setbacks, the kicks in the teeth to this opportunity to go forward and surprise.

Mm. W what do you say to women's Yeah, what do you what do you say to women who Uh and I don't get this question'cause I'm not a woman, but I've certainly Um with some of my founders, they they they get this question a lot from other founders. Yeah.

Which is Um along the or the belief, it might not even be a question that Women should dial back their Womanness. Did you hear my reaction? I did hear the choke. I did I did hear the choke.

Uh But this seems to be a very common belief. Not just among women, but certainly advice that may be men would give to women, it's it's very prevalent. The worst. Yeah, so what do you what do you think of that? The worst advice. And it's given. And it's given woman to woman. Yeah. For sure. Men w whatever it may be. I absolutely part of the reason I wear pink So I wear pink all the time. Um, and you should see my closet. But uh When I went through the process with

um the quote female viagra. It was called the little pink pill. And People All but

Like patted me on the shoulder and said, That's cute. Like it was so the little pink pill was so dismissive. That I realized, my God, this is the conversation we need to be having. So I started showing up in blazing pink to the FDA. Hi. We're gonna talk about this. And I think what it taught me is like in gender stereotypes or that underestimation, like you you run away from it. And I guess if you're me, you run right toward it. And and the idea that there isn't something valuable and unique

that a woman brings to the table. And in owning her femininity. You know, pink for me is about owning it as a woman. Unapologetically pink. I like pink. I'm gonna wear it and we're gonna have this conversation. Um so you know I think that's the way to go. I tell women all the time if you're in an environment in which you need to Not wear makeup, pull your hair back, not be you. And I listen, I was at a table, I won't name the conference, where we were giving advice to younger women across the table and a woman qu very accomplished, sitting to my right, told a woman, You're too pretty. You need to pull your hair back and not wear any makeup. And I said

Absolutely. Not. And if you're in an environment in which you need to do that, move. Yeah. Yeah. So uh

I love the reason for the pink. And it makes me think of uh conversation I had with Amanda Palmer, the musician on this podcast. Yeah. And she's amazing. She's a hell of a character. Uh, certainly has her fair share of controversy, but Uh I I don't know how this came up exactly, but I I've I heard her referring to herself.

Or her friends calling her Amanda fucking Palmer. A F P And some point I was like, What is the story with this Amanda fucking Palmer? And it turns out so she It turns out that one of her like frenemies or or just straight up enemies, like somebody who hated her always referred to her as Amanda fucking Palmer. And you know, take that pain and wear it as a shirt, basically. And I might be I'm paraphrasing, but I love the fact that she took this like barb or something that was thrown to her.

And turned it around and like co-opted it and used it. in such a way that she found empowering and maybe maybe just funny to start with, but disarmed it in that way. Yes. I thought it was just fantastic. I love it. So I think we should probably just do a round two at some point, or an extension. So I'm not gonna ask all of my

Rapid fire questions, but I do want to ask uh Two or three of them. Okay. Alright. So Let's see. The first is what book or books have you gifted?

The most. To other people. Purple cow. Yeah, I have to everybody who's worked for me. What books besides that have you reread yourself the most, if any come to mind? Um I won't name one of yours'cause that seems too flattering.

No, no, no, more, more, more. No, no, no, more, more, more. What else have I read that that I love? Um Other books. I none come to mind that's fine too. Pat Lincione's Pat Lencioni's books. You know, I love that. CEO. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it was about how do you what do you prioritize? Yep. What do you prioritize, what do you let go.

Um, you know, I thought that was actually a a great book. Maybe they're the s maybe there are simple reads that I need to on the airplane. Mm-hmm. Uh, what is the last time that you cried tears of joy? This is a new one. Oh tears of joy. Um

Or the or the time that comes to mind. I rescued a pig. I cried tears of joy for taking this animal out of a terrible situation. I love animals. Um, so went across the state rescued a pig. In a Porsche. How did you find a pygmy eating recipe? I was worried that my car was never gonna smell the same. Um just through a network, like knowing knowing that um but that I cried. A scientist and he said I can't help you, but I know that you can. I cried tears of joy for for making a better life. Well, hold on a second. This is a full grown pig? Yeah. Like hundreds of pounds of not a hog. Like a pot belly, but but so big. Yeah. All right. And I mana manage. Are you now the caretaker of some pig? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it's important to have

Um, you know, sort of in my daily routine, I I still gotta scrape the shit off my boots. Um pet pig. Amazing. Uh

That's incredible. Um the most impressive I I'm I hope I'm getting this right. I'm a I'm a little low on caffeine right now, but Jesse Graaff, who's an incredible phenom uh in the American Ninja Warrior. Yeah. Uh the most impressive hand strength maybe of of anyone I've ever seen. Certainly any woman. I mean just i it Probably thirty times stronger than I am. At least which maybe isn't saying a lot, but like a thousand times stronger. Incredible athlete. And she has a she has a pet big as well. For those interested. That's cool. Uh Okay.

Jesse, call me and tell me what to do. Yeah. Jesse, if you're listening, let her know. Best practices, best pig practices. Uh What is an unusual habit? Or an absurd thing that you love.

And I'll give you an example just to buy some time. So Give you some time to think. Uh when I asked Cheryl Strait this question, who wrote Wild and has done m many, many, many other things and written many other books. Uh she said, Well I like to rearrange my sandwiches. So the first thing I do when I get a sandwich is I rearrange the inside so that with every bite you get an everything bite.

It's very important that like the the avocado or the tomatoes and so on are are evenly distributed. And she will also do this For like I I think uh her husband's sandwiches. Like she'll open his sandwich and rearrange. That's pretty odd. There are a lot of weird things that a lot that everybody's Yes. What is one of yours? What is the most absurd thing I like to do? I I climb and sit. in the sink to put my makeup on.

Which is really weird. That's unusual. It's kinda weird. Do you have any superstitions? Um Not really. No, I grew up you know, when I was a little girl I was in the Fiji Islands. And um so I had a very unusual childhood where there was a lot of superstition. Um so I think that being exposed to that young made me lose them later in life. Not so sure they were true.

I'm not so sure they were worth buying into at that age. They created a lot of fear unnecessarily. W do you have any examples like Oh I mean in that culture, you know, everything was um very superstitious about if you didn't see the fish first, you couldn't get in the water. Yeah. And I I think that, you know, at a young and impressionable age, um they probably had an effect to right aside and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna worry about this going forward. If you had to give a TED talk On something no one would expect. Can't be the pharma stuff. Can't be the company building stuff. Um

Mm. Ha ha Uh Mm. G growing up in a third world country? I don't know. Can I do that one or what lessons learned? Uh

What if you had all right, what if you had six months to prepare for TED talk, but it had to be on a new skill. What would you focus on? Oh my God, I would I would learn how to fiddle. Fiddle.

Totally. Fiddle like Irish bar music fiddle? Yeah. For sure. I would learn how to do that and I'd teach her work. Now is this something you just came up with or is this something you've thought about? Like one thing I should learn the fiddle. Yes, I would love to learn how to fiddle. Like I feel I don't have any musical talent. It sucks. Like I would like to be able to do that. That's a good party trick. I need a better party trick than my uh sexual medicine card. It's not good enough. It's not taking me for it. I need to like play music or inspire through that. Well, I will tell you, as someone who who

has been uh d fantasizing about and simultaneously putting off. uh voice lessons for probably a decade. I just started Did you? About a month a month ago, I want to say, or six weeks ago. That's awesome. One of the best things I've ever done. That's cool. Yeah, it's really been uh empowering and also worth doing in terms of fiddle, just so that you listen to music differently. Yeah. That's now I hear Things totally different. Oh, that's cool. Which is very cool. Okay. Next time I come on, I'm gonna fiddle at the beginning of our intro music, so perhaps I could license for a reasonable fee or fiddle.

Uh What do you do? when you feel overwhelmed or unfocused, what do you do to get back on track or to let Some pressure out of the tires. I usually call my big brothers.

I mean I think that they're very um They're like the exact right balance of kicking me in the ass and encouraging me. Um so when I'm feeling like overwhelmed or anything else, nothing like my my family to be Like Totally unimpressed with my problems and uh and kick me in the ass. Uh so I think that's what I do. I probably call my big brothers. They've been hugely influential in my life.

Can you think of an example uh of them kicking you in the ass or what they would say to you? To be like Really? Um I

Yeah, I I think it's just generally do professionally if you don't mind me asking. Sure. Um so so one is a lawyer um who actually has an operating role in a big construction company, and the other one was a start up guy. Um he's the head of sales and marketing for a uh for a company and he's growing through a lava street. He was a big part of why I went smaller. When I left my uh big company career. When you left Merc. Merc. Yeah, he said go smaller, push yourself, challenge yourself. And I I knew I didn't fit in a big environment, so he was important in that. But I listen, I can call my brothers

Same thing, overwhelmed or even overly like enthused about myself, like hey, did you see I was just Tom Fest? Like, yeah, whatever. Like don't be don't take yourself. Don't you know don't be too proud of yours. Um so I don't know. They they're just they're classic big brothers. Shiny gnome with a big head Yeah. Not impressed. Uh they like a lot of mockery. Yeah. Yeah. Well they've also both spent quite a bit of time in the trenches. They have. I mean they've they've played full contact sports.

That's always very helpful. Uh if you could have A word, a message, a quote. anything on a billboard, a message to get out to Millions, billions.

Whatever. Metaphorically speaking, a lot of people, right? Yeah. What would you put on it? I Can I put it in the valley? Sure. I'd put fuck the unicorn be the workhorse. I'd like that to get out to millions of people in the valley. Yes. It would make me super happy. This is my distaste for the uh all the grandiose speak and start up and and I think the Lack of attention on the fundamentals. Yeah.

Show don't tell, friend. Get it done. Uh How has a a failure? Or an apparent failure. uh set you up or

Led to later. success, contributed to later success. So I mean one potential example would be you know, the decision to take that money from Someone who's Your spider sense told you you shouldn't take money from it.

They come to mind. Um, I I you know, professionally that's certainly uh been the worst. I think that um I'm thinking of, you know, huge um personal failures. of um of mine that have taught me lessons along the way. I I probably crashed and burned a lot uh going through childhood of you know trying to figure out how to fit in in new environments and you know sort of playing to the the popular thought.

Um, and uh in it not working because it wasn't authentically who I am. And uh and I think at some point I became comfortable that I might just be the outlier. Mm-hmm. Well what's funny about being the outlier is you tend to attract other outliers. And then it kinda works out. It does work. I love it. The band of misfits. I was just gonna say that exact thing. Wow, I've never said that before. That's crazy. Band of misfits. Mm-hmm. Uh

Well, you know, I think at this point I I would just say Where can people find you? Where can people say hello? Where can people see what you're up to? Where would you like people to wave a hand on the internet? Oh I'd love for people to find me online on Twitter. I'm at Cindy Pink CEO. Um that or on Insta. Uh love for people to find me there considering I'm so late to the social media. party. Being in a regulated industry with my point of view, my lawyers are pretty sure I should not be on social media. So it's been a a pretty fun journey in these last two years. I've got a lot to say. So I'd love for them to find me there and say something back. Cool. And I'll put those in the show notes as well for folks.

Give any final Parting words, advice and ask of the audience, something they should consider. Yeah. Try themselves anything. Uh look I I I'm gonna I'm gonna play to my uh

my group that I'm looking out for, which is female founders. I'm just gonna ask you to share the stories. uh share the stories of success. I think it matters that we do that. Um if I looked just recently, I learned that only seventeen percent of those profiled on Wikipedia are women. Yeah. More than that deserve to be profiled.

And uh I think there's their stories. So I thank you two for having me on today for that reason. Course. My pleasure. And you know, for what it's worth

This could be taken the wrong way by some people, but hopefully not like I didn't Didn't invite you on because you're a wife. Yeah. I get it. But beyond because you're a good entrepreneur. Thank you, appreciate that. And if that also gets

More women on the show, fantastic. Yeah. You know, because they are out there. Uh and I'm really glad you took the time. So thank you for being on the show. I think it's a year question to say what's the worst that could happen. I do think people should ask themselves that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And uh

It's that is one of the most empowering questions. But you have to spend some time on it. You do? Because if it's just a big scary shadow, it's gonna continue to be a big scary shadow. You have to shine light on it. Yeah. And um For people who want to explore that, you can just check out.

My TED talk. Uh Tim.blog for slash Ted. Uh But This has been really fun. Really fun. Thank you for taking the time and uh we ha we have so many other questions we could explore, but I'll let you get back to Your evening. And for everybody listening.

Or watching. Hi. Uh As always, you can find links to everything we've discussed, books, resources At Cindy Pink CEO on Twitter, Instagram. All of the places. Uh in the show notes at Tim.blog forward slash podcast for this episode and every other. And until next time, thank you for listening.

Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share The coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com, that's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

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