How I Built Resilience: Lindsay Peoples Wagner of The Cut

Hello everyone and welcome to How I Built This Resilience Edition from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. Each week on Thursdays, we invite entrepreneurs and other business leaders to come onto the show live to talk about how they've been building resilience into their businesses this year. And today my conversation with Lindsay Peoples Wagner, the editor-in-chief at The Cut. The Cut's a digital publication that covers fashion, beauty, politics, and much more. And before she went to The Cut, Lindsay was the editor-in-chief at Teen Vogue. Teen Vogue is actually where Lindsay started her professional career in fashion. As an intern cleaning out the fashion closet. Now If you've ever seen the Devil Wears Prada, it is a massive room filled with designer shoes,

Gowns, hats, scarves, bags and accessories. My points of reference for fashion were, you know, I worked at payless growing up. Like I it wasn't like I really knew anything about fashion. I Um I liked being creative, but it honestly wasn't until college that uh one of my professors actually took me aside and said, you know, I think maybe want to try it at magazine. You really like to read

Um, you really like to write, like you want to be creative, maybe this is the outlet for you. And so she had actually sent me a listing for a teen vogue internship that was literally just Slepping, cleaning the clos the fashion closet, something glamorous. Um and I remember telling her, I was like, they're not gonna accept me, like this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Um, this is when like the Hills was on TV and there was a lot of reality television around working in fashion. Um, but they said yes and I was really hooked and excited. And so I did a ton of different internships um to try to figure it out. I did, you know, I tried celebrity styling in LA, realized I don't want to work for a celebrity. Um I did a lot of um, you know, design classes and and realized I don't really want to work at a design house and I really want to work, you know, an editorial. And so I just hustled a ton and moved out here to New York after I graduated from college and

Emailed everyone furiously and ended up getting a entry level job at Teenbo got a school. Wow. Is there I mean, there's as you say, like the hills and and there's a kind of a mythology about what it means to be in the in the publishing world, especially in the fashion world, and obviously Never was Prada, everybody knows th that film and book. Is there any Truth to that is it quite as cut throat as it's portrayed. Incredibly, yes.

I the the cutthroatness, yes, made sense, but I didn't realize I think the layers before I got into the industry. And I think a lot of times I thought it would be More microaggressions as far as racism, but then it was a lot more overt racism, but also classism, elitism, nepotism. Um, and it it hit me really hard when I started working in fashion officially when I left school because I just felt incredibly lost and

I think also just coming from the Midwest, you you do have a certain naive presence about you and just expecting a niceness and kindness out of people and I really felt those. For a very long time, but especially those first couple years that I just wasn't going to cut it because I was black and I wasn't rich and I was always working three jobs and so I wasn't able to afford like, you know, the luxury designer to wear to work. And I always had to work, you know, go somewhere after the job. So I was always rushing of

after the job I would maybe go to another shoot and I or I would, you know, change mannequins to the D K and Y store weekends. I was always waitressing, um, and I just felt like it Well very much the odds were against me, but I felt like I had something to offer. And so a lot of those first couple of years was spent really trying to figure out should I stay or should I go back to Wisconsin. And y you've written a lot about this over over the course of your career, um, including a really famous piece that you you won awards for but I I wanna ask you

What was it that that gave you the the strength or the the feeling that you wanted to stick it out and stay and and eat despite All of those things that you That you saw and experienced. I think a lot of it was

thinking about my family and the sacrifices that they made for me, my parents just worked so hard to to send my sister and I to, you know, good schools and and be so involved in our lives and I was close with both of my grandmothers, one of whom passed last year, and I don't I just spent a lot of time thinking about These people have done so much for me and given so much for me, and I don't have the right to give up yet. Like I haven't earned the right to be lazy. I haven't earned the right to give up.

These people have given their lives and sacrificed so much for me to even try to do this, and I think Just the realization of, you know, the things that they had to do. Even when I think about my grandmothers, they both were really into fashion and and wore Sunday best and always really dressed up in, you know, the most beautiful hats and gloves and most amazing outfits with so little money, but you know, their day jobs were, you know just regular jobs. My my grandmother in Wisconsin, she worked at a steel factory. Um, my grandmother down south, she worked at a cotton mill. And I just think about that because I think For me it was like, you know, they had to do all those things to make ends meet. And so I don't really feel like I earn the right to just say, I'm tired of this and I wanna give up and and I always think of them.

Lindsey, you started your position as editor in chief at the cut in the middle of a pandemic. I mean I think it's it's it's worth pointing out that It's not just being the editor in chief, it's being the manager, being the leader of of a team of people and that is inc incredibly complex to do in a normal time when you're walking into an office and you're the new face and then you're the leader, but to do that remotely I can't even imagine how how complex it is. Walk me through

Your first kind of weeks Uh at the cut and and basically Starting this job. Remotely. Yeah, I actually didn't have a break from leaving Teen Vogue to the Cut. I ended Teen Vogue on a Friday, Monday I started at the Cut, and so

It definitely was a a switch in my mind of like, okay, now we have to switch gears here. Um I mean I I think for me it is Always about empathy. This Past year has just been insane for everyone on so many levels.

Myself, I I lost six family members to Covet, and so I felt like God, I don't even, you know, some days I just didn't want to work. Some days I just felt like, you know, I w wish I could be around my family. This is the longest time I've gone without seeing my family. And I think remembering that and also just having so many conversations with people one on one was really important to me because Everybody's headspace in a different place and I don't wanna assume anything and I think for me it's also just really important to never think too highly of myself. all these accolades and things are are wonderful and I'm all I'm super appreciative, but

It's always gonna be about the hustle for me and I don't ever wanna take that for granted. And so For me, it's it's never coming in and being like, Well, I'm important and let's hear the sound of my voice. No. Um, I wanna hear from everyone and so I've just taken a lot of time to have one on ones with everybody and hear how they're doing, how they're feeling, what they need from me, um, what they're needing as far as their growth, um, in their career and their path. And I think just taking that time to let people I think Explain where they're at instead of me bulldozing my opinion is is the way that I really like to manage. I think this has probably been one of the hardest years also to be a manager, to manage people because of the isolation of the pandemic and and all of the

the things that that entails. And you know, there people probably have an impression of an editor in chief as somebody who gets to do all these fun creative things only and and look at the you know, the finished magazine and and make changes, but That's only part of the job. A a big part of the job is managing people in an organization How have you

kind of learned how to do that or or how are you learning how to do that?'Cause it's so hard. I mean it's hard for anybody and I can't even imagine doing it remotely. Yeah, I mean I'll never forget when I left Teen Vogue, a couple of the staffers had said to me that they just appreciated how much of a human approach I was as a manager. And I thought that was probably one of the nicest things that anyone has said to me because I think a lot of times it can feel in the past for me being managed by a lot of different people, it felt like the manager was just separate and I'm above you and I talk down to you and

I'm leading this and you're the team. And I really have tried to make sure that I am having that human approach that. I'm not separate. If If you feel like we're losing and we're not doing something, then that means I'm losing and we're not doing something. And I think just leveling that equal playing field is really important, but I think also Just having those conversations that you probably wouldn't have all the time or wouldn't have had before this past year. And I think just having That transparency is really, really important for me because I think

As a writer, I always felt like people maybe weren't interested in in investing in me enough or maybe communicating things to me enough. And I never want people to feel like they have to guess what they're getting with me and understand really how I feel about their work or where they're going or what I need from them. And so I think the transparency piece is also incredibly important. I read that you um this past year you stopped making plans f on the weekends that that you were feeling so burned out. I think a lot of people can relate to that. I can relate to that for sure.

So burnt out, I'll be honest with you, I didn't even wanna show up to my studio here this morning because I just It was one of those mornings, you know, where I just felt Burned out. And I can't I can't explain it. It's not It's not connected to anything in particular, but I think a lot of us are kind of experiencing that silently

How do you cope with burnout? How how are you dealing with it? You know, it's An easy thing to say but a hard thing to do, I have to turn everything off. Honestly, I mean Technology and social media are great because you can connect with all these people and we're able to do things like this. But

The less people can reach me, the better because I just need to turn my brain off. And I think especially in media, your brain is constantly on because even if you're like let's say watching a new TV show. For me, it's never just let me enjoy the show. It's like, oh, do we need to cover one of the people in this show? Do we need to write about it? Do we need to critique it? Do we miss this moment? Your mind just continues to go. And so even in the things that I do for my enjoyment time are usually things that are very separate from my job. So a lot of people who would if they follow me on social media will know I really love to cook. Um, and that's enjoyable for me because I have to use both of my hands and, you know, I'm not like checking Slack or and I'm not on social media. Um, and I just need something that completely uses a different part of my brain to be able to relax. And I think

I think over the years in in going to therapy, I just realized that a lot of things that I was trying to do in my downtime, I was still really anxious. And where I was still just on my phone the whole time if I was watching something or trying to do something else. And so um my husband was the one who actually told me like. even hanging out with your friends. He was like, just do it during the week. So on the weekends you can just be still. And it's been really helpful. And it and it sounds strange because you're like, I mean, yeah, you wanna maybe you want to hang out with your friend on the weekend or something like that. And obviously I wouldn't make exceptions if somebody had a birthday or if I felt like it, but It was really nice. to not make any commitments to anyone.

For two days. Yeah. When I when I just needed that. How would you sort of define how you have grown as a leader over the last year. I I can't imagine w in some ways, like, as difficult as this past year has been, it's also been Probably a

For so many people I've interviewed. Like an accelerant because it's forced them to interrogate themselves and their own approach and And and to improve. How do you think your style has changed or what you've how you what have you learned about the way you lead?

I think um Honestly, to slow down a bit. My mind runs million miles an hour and I think especially last year

With the murder of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor, there were just days that I I it's not normal for me to not know what to do. Um

And it's not normal for me to Feel like I I don't know. what else I can do because I'm just so heartbroken in this moment. And I think that made me realize that I just needed to slow down.

And figure out okay, like this is a moment that That as a black woman, I have to grieve, I have to understand, I have to be able to move through, but also Use my platform, use you know what we're given to be able to make a difference and to be able to I think push culture forward and have really important conversations. And I think usually I'd be like, Okay, let's do this, let's do that, da. And it it was a big learning experience for me to, you know, I have to I have to feel these feelings as well. Um, even though I'm managing people, even though I'm running a site. And that's definitely been a a learning curve for me.

When we come back, more of my conversation with Lindsey Peoples Wagner and how she's working to hold the fashion industry accountable. To be more inclusive. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This Resilience Edition. From NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Resilience Edition. I'm talking with Lindsay Wagner. She's the editor in chief at The Cut.

A few years ago, she published a piece on the site called Everywhere and Nowhere, What it's really like to be black and work in fashion. In the article, she interviewed a hundred black professionals working across the industry, and it became a critically acclaimed and widely shared article. Last year, almost two years after writing that piece, the Lindsey saw an opportunity to turn that conversation into accountability. So she co founded the Black in Fashion Council.

When I did the original piece, uh, which you know was a few years ago, it it felt like I think last year in having so many conversations with different POC in the industry that It was time to take it to the next level, and I think it really felt like All these narratives are out. We told all these stories of like what is happening, what needs to change and Basically, a lot of people in the industry have read this and and then some. So what needs to shift in order for there to actually be

a shift in the industry overall and just got on a lot of Zooms with my co founder, Sandrine Charles. She has her own PR firm and we decided to, you know, partner with the human rights campaign on a corporate equity index and actually make an industry wide, I think, business plan as far as how do we make inclusivity holistically part of your business plan. I think specifically Fashion and media. Everything that we do is so subjective as far as you know who we think is cool enough, who we think is worthy, who we think is on brand. And that's really hard to rate. That's really hard to put against numbers. And I think

What we saw was a lot of these companies having the right policies that were really inclusive, but not actually putting the policies into practice. Or really doing the front facing things of M L K quote on Instagram or um their runway or their cover was a POC, but then internally at the company there isn't, you know, diversity internally the company, they don't actually really care about POC and being promoted or senior level executives. And so it really is that holistic approach and a lot of the work that we're doing to to make sure that I mean the goal is one day that DI won't have to be a separate

initiative for companies that everyone inherently cares and and the bar I think is Higher as far as what we accept. We're getting a bunch of questions in from people watching. I wanna get to some of them. A lot of them are are mentorship questions and I mean what a great mentor you are. Um this is from Nicole Calazzo Sanana, who's actually an N PR intern. Nicole asks, what advice do you have for young journalists who are graduating into this pandemic?

Oof. I mean I know it seems bleak and I know it seems tough, but If you have a perspective and you have laser focus on what you're writing about, there's always room for that. I think finding your specific voice is really important because I don't I think Twitter has made people want to wrong for Twitter and want to

go viral, um want want a piece to do really well on Twitter. And and I want writers, especially young writers, to just understand that's not the end all be all. Just because a piece doesn't do well on Twitter doesn't mean it it isn't good. And I think a lot of times people are writing in that vein and I and I want young writers especially to just understand that that validation only goes so far and and what you really need is to hone in on your voice. Um here's another question. Um and I I'm Um forgive me for my pronunciation, but I believe it's Mandib uh Mpofu uh via YouTube and Mandib asks Have you ever dealt with impostor syndrome?

Being a young black woman in such an influential position and if so, how do you navigate that? So I have an interesting answer to this question. I'm prefacing with that. Honestly, I have long felt like

I'm equipped to do what I need to do. And I never try to boast of how smart I am or whatever, that nobody cares and and I'm not that kind of person. But I also just think, especially um in the world, but also in fashion, there have been a lot of white people who have had jobs that they were not even equipped for that had the role. And so I don't ever feel that way because I feel like

I am continuously and always going to be a hustler. I'm usually the most ambitious person in the room. So I've never felt like, oh, am I good enough? I feel like honestly, there's always too much pressure on me to overperform in every single way. And that I think that pressure. has been interesting to to try to to figure my way through. You've had such a successful career in publishing. What what advice would you give to somebody who who wanted to work

at one of the magazines that you been at, like h how should they sort of approach approach their career? My advice I always give people is to make sure that you are hungry to do the work. and less thirsty for attention. I think a lot of people look at me And think

Oh, you Get to do all these cool things, but I will still do whatever it takes to get the work done. I am not the person that is like, Well, let me go find someone to go do this because I'm the editor, so I'm not doing that. Nothing is beneath me. Nothing. And I think

When you're hungry to do the work, that's something that's inside of you that no matter what job you have, it doesn't matter. You're just excited to do the work. I'm excited to make great work. That's why I'm doing this job. And You know, the social media accolades all of that I think is is a nice additive, but it's it's not you know, the reason why you should be doing it, your motivation behind it. Yeah.

I mean in terms of of Yeah, we were talking about this a little bit before we went live, but It seems to me that it's unlikely that once the pandemic is, let's say sort of over and we're not wearing masks, let's say, and we can interact in close quarters again. Um

It it seems un unlikely to me that we're gonna go back to two thousand nineteen. you know, it just seems unlikely. It's possible. I I think I'd be really surprised. How do you imagine, you know, the sort of the post pandemic kind of play out for you and your team.

I talk a lot about boundaries with team and I think um healthy boundaries is is a great conversation to continuously have. Um There is no such thing as perfect work life balance. I don't think that's ever happen for anyone and I think Even for myself, it was like I knew in starting this job. I was going to just have to kind of swing to okay, I'm gonna be working a lot later at nights and I'm gonna be working a lot harder than once I'm able to get in the swing of things with people and that's okay. And I think

I definitely had the past couple years this pressure of like trying to get it right in that balance, but it has been more of a harmonious rhythm of like, okay, a little bit there, a little bit there. Um, and just being okay with that as far as um work schedule and then finding a better balance in it that's not so rigid and perfect. But um I've definitely had a lot of conversations with people on just having those healthy boundaries. I feel like everyone, especially being at home, it's hard to It's hard to close a laptop.

Everybody feels like you've to be on all the time. And again, like there's too many ways to to get in contact. Like it's Slack, email, text, social media, all these things. And so um, I do have a lot of conversations with people about just being mindful of like how often how late all of those things'cause I think that it can be really exhausting for people. Yeah.

Absolutely. Um Another question from uh viewer Ganisia Britt. Uh Ganisia asks, What is bringing you joy? Right now. Ooh, that's a good one. Um Honestly, I I wouldn't consider myself a super

optimistic person. I'm I'm more of a cautiously optimistic person. Um but I I'm really hopeful for the future and I think a lot of really important conversations that we've been forced to have. I don't think I've ever had so many conversations about racism in the workplace and and just race, you know, with co workers.

Since last year. I mean I think that in itself was like, Oh, I actually feel like things will shift and things will get better because we're finally having a lot of these hard conversations. And that's brought me an odd sense of joy, even though it's obviously come from a really sad place, but it makes me really hopeful that we're at least having a lot of these conversations more often and that it's not something that feels hidden or siloed. Um and the warm weather hope. Yeah. Uh, this is a question from Jada Hill. Jada asks When did you know that it was time for you to leave?

Teen Vogue for another role for another company. I knew probably I I knew that I had outgrown Some things. But

People love to talk about my age in every interview. There's like a weird fascination around this, which is totally fine. But I think I obviously like knowing me and and anyone who's close to me has always joked that I just act a lot older than I actually am and and my parents always felt like I was, you know, really old soul, even as a child. And so I was really wary of leaving because I felt like people would also kind of People like to also weaponize how young I am when I make certain decisions or say certain things of like, Well, you're young, you wouldn't understand, or Well, you're young, you're jumping around from thing to thing. And so I felt like I had outgrown it a certain point, but honestly I felt very um worried about kind of being labeled as someone who would just jump from thing to thing because of my age. So it it took a while for me to then actually

Make a decision to leave. There are some questions about Teen Vogue and you don't have to answer them, but I'm I'm obviously there was um an unfortunate series of of things that happen at Teen Vogue after your departure. The editor an editor was hired and the editor never took the position. There was opposition from the staff about the editor and some tweets that she had sent out. Um

I'm sure you followed the story and I'm sure it was painful for you to see that happen at a place where you worked for so long. Um Wha what do you make of what what happened and sort of the outcome? Yeah, I mean I I don't believe in cancel culture. I don't think it's productive. I'm a person of faith, so I am really

Invested in forgiveness. I'm really invested in redemption and I'm not perfect and none of us are. And so I never want to I I think promote any of those things, but I I love that staff dearly and It was very hard to leave that job because I I love that team so much and um we became really close like a family. So it was definitely hard to watch, but I'm I'm super proud of them and I'm super excited for all they have um coming up.

one of the team members, um, Danielle Kwatang, she was the culture director that I brought on and she just got promoted to executive editor. So I'm really, I'm really excited for them and and it's a really great team. So I'm excited for the future. So now you are running this Really huge very sort of internationally visible. Sight.

What are your plans for the cut? Oh so many. Um I always have Literally twenty four tabs open on my computer. Yeah. No, it's it's crazy because you know, w I worked at Teen Vogue before and then came back as editor in chief and and I worked at the Cut before and coming back as editor in chief. So a lot of it is informed by, you know, things that I wanted to do back then, but then how do we do that in a different way now? And

I I just was always really hungry to I think make sure that we were being as inclusive and intersectional as possible. It funny now, but I probably really annoyed Stella uh when I worked at the Cut before because I would come into her office with these Long deck. PowerPoint presentations of I wanna do this and I'm gonna shoot this person and she would say yes and she would let me, you know, go fly and and go pass some ideas and I would have to do them from the ground up, which most people

didn't want to do'cause it was a lot of work. But I, you know, came to her a couple of years ago and I said, Oh, you know Israel, Sizza, Dua Lipa, all these people are gonna be really big, like we have to do something. And she's like, Great, you can do the whole thing. And so I would, you know, reach out to their agent and find a location and produce the whole shoot and style them and write the interview. Um And I just was really hungry to do a lot of those things. And so I think a lot of that has also informed of how I want to make sure that we're really leading culture and we're not just, you know, chasing after I think a lot of stories that other people are going after. Um, I'm super, super grateful. The staff is incredible. Everyone is really kind and um I think we're gonna have some fun. I'm excited. You mentioned boundaries.

a few minutes ago about what will happen when you go back to the office What are some things that you Have appreciated about this past year that you want to take with you as a leader? in the next phase of whatever our world may may bring us.

There's a there's a Tony Morrison stanza that I really love. It's from The New Yorker and it's a longer piece about work. And I used to actually have it up when I worked at the cut in the office before. And I just always have it up on my computer'cause I think it's So important and I mean Tony's the god, so

We we bow down. But the first stanza says, Whatever the work is, do it well, not for the boss, but for yourself. And I always think of that you make the job, it doesn't make you Your real life is with us, your family, and the last one, you were not the work you do, you were the person that you are. And Those are things that I've been reciting to myself and I keep it up on my computer and other places and I keep it on my phone, but I really I I think it's easy to get caught up in the titles and in the chase and in the goals and all of that and I don't wanna ever get lost in that. I love what I do. I love this work.

I have just this innate desire to make. great work that little Lindsay wanted to see, but I'm doing it for me. I'm not doing it for all of these other things. And and I think that's something that I'm consistently reminding myself of. That's an excerpt from my live conversation with Lindsey Peoples Wagner, the editor in chief at The Cut. If you want to see this interview in its entirety or any of our past live interviews, you can find them on the How I Built This Facebook page or at youtube.com slash NPR. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger with help from Paris Safari.

J C Howard, Bruce Grant. El Manian, Gianna Capadona, John Isabella, Julia Carney, Neva Grant. and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Janet Ujong Li. Thanks for listening, stay safe, and I'll see you in a few days.

I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening. To how I built this. Resilience edition From NPR.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 3 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.