Dr. Rana el Kaliouby wants more human-centered AI

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Hey folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Masad, and more. Will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great, or you want to build something great, We want you there with us too.

Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. What does an AI first human machine interface look like? Right, if you're designing an interface from scratch

Is it really gonna be like Your smartphone or What else could it be? That's Rana Al Kalyubi, a leading innovator in the field of emotion AI. as in how machines can learn to measure and simulate human emotions.

She's also my friend and colleague. AI can unlock human potential. And it can be Both massively economically successful and good for people, so it can help us be healthier, more productive, more knowledgeable, good for the planet. And then building empathy into these devices, too, I think that's so important.

We often talk about the importance of IQ when it comes to AI. But Rana wants us to also consider EQ. Emotional intelligence is key to making more human-centric AI. Rana has dedicated her career to this conviction. She co-founded Affectiva.

a company building technology to measure complex human emotions. She's also an investor and author of the best-selling memoir, Girl Decoded. And now she's adding a new title to the list. Podcast host. Pioneers of AI.

goes behind the scenes of the AI revolution. and gives you the tools to understand what's coming next. You gotta have incredible talent at every position. It's like this huge push. There are fires burning when you're going out. Can we believe it? Such an idiot. And then you go back to this is totally gonna be amazing. There are so many easy ways. I have no idea what it is. Sorry, we made a mistake. But you have to time it right. Oops. Working out of a three-bedroom apartment. Ten years later, I'm like, well that's just how you do it. We haven't made it just how you do it.

This is masters of scale. Rana El Kayubi is a longtime friend of Masters of Scale. Today, we want to reintroduce her and welcome her new show, Pioneers of AI, to the podcast Pantheon. And any time I get to speak with Rana about where AI is headed, especially on the fronts of empathy and emotion,

It's a thrill. Let's get to it. Welcome, Rana L Calubi. Two masters of scale. I've been looking forward to this for a while. Me too.

Hi Reed. Let's do a little bit of the origin story. So say a little bit about like your path to becoming an AI academic, like where you grew up and and how you chose your PhD and you know, that kind of stuff. Well, uh let's see. So I was born in Egypt, as you know, uh grew up around the Middle East. Both my parents were technologists, so we were always exposed to like a lot of technology early on. I wanted to be an academic, so I decided to study computer science as an undergraduate. Got really fascinated, I still am, by this human machine touch point, the you know, human machine interfaces and how it only not only affects

Our communication with technology, but our relationship with one another, too. So that became my area of focus. And I left Egypt to go do my PhD at Cambridge University in computer vision and machine learning over twenty five years ago. So people think AI, you know, is like this new thing. I'm like Some of us have been doing this for a while. And pioneered an an area or a category within AI called emotion recognition or artificial emotional intelligence. Towards the end of my PhD, I met this MIT professor. She was visiting Cambridge. University to give a talk and we clicked and she invited me to join her as a postdoc.

at MIT and that's how I ended up in the US. Ah. What you know, like one of the things that I think is also for people who want to go in deeper into your story is the memoir Girl Decoded. Obviously a great You know, clever title in lots of different ways. Um People way under describe the EQ issues within

AI understanding in addition to the kind of the path of your life would would people find from the Memoir. Yeah, the memoir is this juxtaposition of my personal journey with the journey of building the technology, because it's so intertwined. So I talk about like, okay, why do emotions matter, right? They influence every aspect of our lives, everything from our little decisions every day to like big decisions we make, how we learn, how we connect with one another.

And I'm sure our listeners will recognize that it's not just your IQ that matters, right? Your cognitive intelligence, but your emotional intelligence, your ability to tap into other people's emotional experiences. And that's how we motivate behavior change, influence people, persuade people to do things. So people who have higher EQs tend to be Just

Better leaders and better partners. I do believe that's true for technology as well. So what what's your view What's your view on that? Well, I mean one of the things that I think is funny is the people who say Emotions don't affect how I make decisions or I think

Actually in fact it affects them a lot. And they just don't have Yeah. the the question around like, you know, what words you choose or how different words you know, kind of affect you in different ways, even if they have largely similar Semantic meaning.

The choice of it. For example, you know, very classically, you might say, I I think I might have this point of view versus I have this point of view. Well, Very different emotional impacts. But that's not what people typically focus on. Rana believes that AI models need to be designed to pick up on such nuances.

Models that can understand the difference between a user saying I think versus I know. She sees this as fundamental to AI's development. And while others have ignored emotion in AI, she's dived in headfirst. The company she co-founded, Affectiva.

Revolutionized emotion AI. Rana has always been a trailblazer. From academia to entrepreneurship, she's plowed her way in a field where she was often the only woman And the only Muslim in the room. You know, I used to wear the hijab, I wore it for 12 years, and I I put I put it on willingly and I took it off when it just didn't feel like me anymore.

I I also moved to the US with You know, as a single mom with two young kids, they were ten and four at the time and now they're 21 and 15. And so I I think I'd like to believe that I've had this entrepreneurial spirit in me. And when I have conviction, I just go for it. And I I think one of my core values is having courage to chart a path that maybe hasn't been charte before. Um

So when it came to affectiva, so here I am at MIT, you know, um I was funded by the National Science Foundation and Ross Picard's lab, but we started to get a lot of commercial interest in our technology, which is this facial expression recognition technology. And all these Fortune 500 companies wanted to use it for a variety of applications. And so I remember we walked into the Media Lab Director's office at the time, it was Frank Moss, and we said, Frank, we need more dollars to like hire more PhD students, and he Thought about it for a second, and he said, You know, this is not research anymore. There's a commercialization opportunity here. And my initial reaction was like, Whoa, wait, I'm about to apply for faculty, you know, don't mess with my academic plans. But then I realized, and that was the tipping point for me, and I think that's my message to academics who are listening to this. Um

Entrepreneurship. Is an amazing path to actually bring your technology to scale. Right. Like you you take it from this academic setting where you're publishing Papers and maybe Ten people are using it.

to like scaling it worldwide and that to me is what's so magical about Starting a business. That sense of Taking Insight and thought and research.

that you get from you know, the academic side and then applying it to how do you build scale companies, scale technologies, other kinds of things. You don't have to say it wasn't easy, by the way. I wanna share a story. Please um Like it's it's more of a confession, really. You know, I'm a first time founder. When I started Affectiva was my first time doing this, and I think I was really

You know, there was a lot of stuff I didn't know. So for example, we had one of the investors who were courting us at the time send us an email and and he said, One line. Send me your BS. And I was like, I have no idea what this guy's talking about. Turns out he was asking for our balance sheet. Right. Very early startups.

BS also. means the other thing that people think. Right. Exactly. Yeah, I was like the the only BS I know of, I can't really Attached in an email. Uh but then I we were I was also like our very first product roadmap. We were like, Q one, we're gonna like penetrate the advertising research market. Q two we're gonna do education. Q three will be health. It was so naive and we had so underestimated, but I actually think that's

That's okay, because that gives you that conviction. And that kind of belief that you can Go for it. Uh is what Keeps you going, I think. I don't know. Do you

Yeah. I mean I think a lot of the entrepreneurship stuff. You cannot fulfill. There's no I prepare everything. You could prepare some Um but you just have to have that

That Hut Spa And grit. And you know, kind of very

broad learning capabilities. to do that kind of thing. Yeah. Right. Right. So go into a little bit more depth. About Both. Your research and affectiva.

And what the shape Of that. has been. So the core technology we developed at Affectiva was essentially an emotion recognition system that tracked and identified your various facial expressions and then mapped those to any number of emotional states. And when we first started, it could only recognize a smile, an eyebrow raise, a brow furrow. But over time, it now has a repertoire of over 40 different emotional states. And the range of applications is numerous. We uh service about a third of the Fortune 500 companies globally to understand the emotional connection their consumers have with their products and videos and content.

And then a number of years ago, we pivoted to the automotive market, where we now build driver monitoring systems and cabin monitoring systems to really understand what's happening in the car and what the driver is. Driver attentive, are they falling asleep? And and think of it as being a co-pilot to the both driver and also passengers in the vehicle. In twenty twenty one, Affectiva was acquired by a company called SmartEye. But the closing of one door meant the opening of the next. Rana has since launched her career as an investor.

Focusing on companies revolutionizing the field of AI. So I've been investing for the last three years. I started A fund with a friend of mine, Rob May. We've made forty investments. And then I'm now

partnering with Gabby Zeiderveld, who was part of my team at Affectiva, and we are launching Bluetulip Ventures to invest in human centric AI. So entrepreneurship again, but in a different form. I just love being in innovation kind of spaces and I also love supporting founders on their journeys. I found from my experience that Some of

My investors were so instrumental to our journey at Affectiva. Being thought partners, being strategic advisors, being connectors and door openers, and I wanna do the same for founders of early stage companies. I also think it's an amazing time in AI, and and actually you're you're one of my inspirations and mentors when it comes to that. It's an amazing time to be investing in AI. It's their early days. I think the next generation AI companies and Transformative companies of our generation are being born now and How cool would it be to

play a part in in these companies journeys. Now, part of what we're doing in this podcast is we're going to be introducing another podcast'cause in addition to your hats As Academic.

Inventor. Entrepreneur. COVID. Investor. You're also becoming a podcaster.

And part of what you're gonna be doing is pioneers of AI. So Say a little bit about what the podcast is, why now, what chart, what path, what what journey will the podcast be heading out on?

Yeah, it's it's another kind of entrepreneurial journey, I would say. So pioneers of AI is a guide for all things AI to people who are both experts in the AI space, who kind of just struggle with keeping up with all the innovations and what's happening in AI. But ideally, one of our goals is to also expand the audience for AI and make AI more inclusive so that you can come to the podcast to understand AI, embrace AI, anticipate what's coming next with AI. We definitely want to take a balanced view on all the potential good that can come out of AI, but we also want to be underscoring and highlighting where things can go wrong. So that hopefully as a society we can kind of guard against that. We will be featuring AI builders, of course. So

those in the kitchen kind of building the next generation of AI technologies and use cases, but also AI thinkers who are particularly thinking about the implications of AI on culture, on society, on our arts, on science, on education, on parenting, right? So we want to be tackling some of these like everyday questions as it relates to okay how is AI gonna impact my life on a personal and professional level. I also am very passionate about platforming voices that we don't typically hear from, so that's gonna be one of our goals as well. Pioneers of AI is a podcast that focuses on all the big questions around AI.

and the latest trends. Many technologists will say that the biggest trend in the forecast is agentic AI. That is AI that can perform tasks for us. Without any assistance. It's an important topic.

And one that Rana is addressing head on in her podcast. The best AI agent, in my opinion, would be one that knows you really well. And one way to know you really well is of course to get access to all of your information and maybe whatever health device you're wearing and your bank account so that it can act on your behalf or and whatnot. But another way it gets to really know you is through your emotional experiences and what what's your emotional state? Are you stressed? Are you happy? Are you Anxious so that it can really customize and personalize its interactions just the way an awesome friend would do. And I think that's still missing.

from where AI is at. And memory plays a big part of it. How do you build actual models of memory and getting to learn A person. Yeah. 'Cause part of how trust is established is

Th that the you believe that the person Knows you. understands, you know, what's kinda good for you and interests and so forth, and will act In those ways.

Is essential to all of that. Right. Right. And if it's not there, right, then The interaction suffers, yeah. You know this. as deeply as anyone in the world, but like obviously one of the things about this A genetic.

Future. Is gonna be kind of establishing Trust. So what do you think

is gonna be important not just for gaining trust. But actually in fact being A faithful holder of trust. I would say like really knowing what's happening to your data. Like first of all, understanding who's behind these agentic AIs, like the company that's building

These technologies I think That needs to be trustworthy. Knowing where and how your data is being used, that's so important. So I I uh I I think a a certain level of transparency around that is important and also control over that. Um, the relationship between a person and their AI agents is so important. Like how much autonomy do you want to give your AI agents? And does that build over time as you trust them more and more? Question mark. Um, so there's a lot of questions that we ought to be asking.

kind of as design decisions when we're building these AI agents. I'm so looking forward to Rana's podcast conversations on pioneers of AI. She's just getting started. And when we come back from a break. Rana takes the mic.

and asks me a few of her questions about AI. Stay with us. When you've built substantial wealth through your business, it's often tied up in a single equity position. The upside is real, but so is the risk, and knowing when to act isn't always obvious. Creative planning works with business owners to build a strategy around concentrated equity.

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I hope to see you there. We're back with a special Masters of Scale introduction. for pioneers of AI. With AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, Rana Elkalubi. You can find this interview on the Masters of Scale YouTube channel and more about the new show.

at Pioneersof. We're gonna switch hosts. And you're now. The Host?

For the Second half. of this podcast. So I am handing the mic. Over to you. So exciting. Uh, and I will start by saying you also have a new podcast joining our network. Share a bit about

Possible. What's it about? So um One of the things that I think is a great disservice to humanity is that's happening across media.

across government discussions and so forth is A fear and dystopia approach. to technology first versus a possibility and a creation.

And it doesn't mean that it needs to be Blind. You know. uh optimism or blind Utopic'cause you know, navigating

How do you get the good is really important. Like for example, when you're driving somewhere You don't get somewhere by going, I'm first going to figure out all the things that could go wrong before I get in the car. Right? Like I'm I'm gonna go, Well could spin out of control, I'm gonna make sure I could hit a tree. I'm gonna you gotta start driving towards a location and you have to have some place you're going.

Right. You can't just go Well, if I eliminate all the bad, then the good will happen. That's not actually, in fact, how a journey and a creation and invention happens. It's a going towards something. So the real question is what should you shape towards? And part of the reason I decided to add possible into the the Pantheon. So we have masters of scale for kind of scale companies and entrepreneurs and and journey and impact. And then possible is

Okay, what could possibly go right? Yeah, of course. But like What should we be building towards? It's definitely positive.

But it's positive in a You know, how do you n chart the journey? How do you navigate? And that's why we a I added it in. to the the Pantheana podcast. I love that because sometimes you need to create the possibility, like literally for people. And then you plant that

idea or you create that image or picture of the future and then people can work towards it. But right now there is so much fear. So you talk a lot about AI unlocking human potential. What do you mean by that? So last year uh I I published the first book on AI co-written with AI. My co-writer was GPD four. And

What I wanted to do is I wanted to show where I understand why, you know, John McCarthy at all you know, call it artificial intelligence, especially back then, but you know, it actually now has a little bit of a misnomer. And so I call it, you know, amplification. Intelligence. Um because it's an amplifier of human capabilities. And that doesn't mean That just like

You know, kind of other technologies. Sometimes parts of it so outstrip human That the technology just does it itself. I mean, like for example, We don't have humans plowing farm fields anymore. So it's like any bit of technology kind of moves this and it changes that landscape.

But in the change in the landscape, part of Of course the Discourse has been kind of almost like the movie Idiocracy. Like is AI gonna be doing everything and are we gonna be sitting on the couches, you know, uh, drinking Gatorade and watching uh numbing Aldus.

Huxley Brave New World. you know, becoming just kind of sensate, you know, bundles of of emphatic, lymphatic response. And I just think that it's Just not very likely.

You have all these discussions about like Well, I you could just, you know, fire my marketing department, use G V D four. It's like well No, you can't. Right by the way. Exactly. Marketing is a competition between multiple organizations.

And Of course, if you're not using G V D four. you know, and other AI tools in your Marketing.

Today you're falling behind, you're not using key tool sets. But it's human beings doing it and being amplified in various ways. And you should be looking at What are the ways in this human competition Just like, for example, I use really good running shoes, or I use you know, flippers, or I use scuba tanks, or I use, you know, da da da.

What's the way that I can be deploying this technology to be furthering You know, my human objectives, my humanist objectives, my business objectives, et cetera. And so that's what the unlocking human potential and by the way, AI and the amplification. It brings we'll have some of those challenges for people full stop and we need to help and be more sympathetic. But

Ultimately Better for your children, better for society, better for industry. And If you keep an a learning and evolving mindset.

It can be better for you too. So for some of our listeners who are listening to this conversation and they're still kinda weary of AI. What are some of the applications of AI that you're most excited about. Well, part of when I'm talking to government folks

who are like, well, press is telling me That my primary job is to limit big tech. And part of the problem, of course, is a lot of the driver of AI of this new industrial, this cognitive industrial revolution we're getting. is emerging from big tech. And I say, Well, actually in fact, while this is what everyone's

Kav. singing the song they should be doing, I have an alternative vision. Which is We have a line of sight we could construct in a small number of months. A medical assistant

that is as capable as kind of call it you know, uh an average GP or better. That could run for Small number of dollars per hour. How do you m m get that to be made?

And available to everybody. And then you know, everybody who has access to a smartphone. And then you have a medical assistant. for the billions of people in the world who do not have access to a doctor. And by the way, even here in the юс.

There are Millions of people. who do not really have access to a doctor. other than an ER room and they may not even have access to an ER room. So that's one, and that will require

Some modifications of Liability laws, um incentives, and other things. The second one. Which I also think. is super important. Is a tutor

On every skill. Every capability, every subject. For every age. Infinitely patient. Again.

Runnable on a smartphone. Wealthy people have always been able to afford Tutors. For themselves or for their kids. Now it can be everybody.

Yeah. I love that you've highlighted Those two applications in particular. I'm passionate about both of them. It's this idea of democratizing access to. quality health and quality education around the world. It's very possible, like right back to your New podcast. It is so possible. Like the data's there.

You can create these like co-pilots for health and co-pilot career coaches, right? That can be kind of learning companions and career companions. It's it's so exciting. Um what are some of the things that concern you? When it comes to AI. Look, it is definitely possible. That bad things can happen.

Now one of the reasons why I kind of advocate very strongly against the the existential risk the robots are coming, you know, Terminator movie, et cetera, is because Most of the real bad things to focus on are AI in the hands of

you know, kind of bad human beings. Yeah. Terrorists. Variety things. Rogue States.

Yeah, interference with elections. Um, you know, all of this kind of stuff in the hands of human beings with bad intents, because we have those too. Or The top concerns that I have.

Now You know, again a little bit of the tech lash is people tend to say, Well, you know, but what about like, for example Things like hallucination or you know perpetuating a racial stereotype. And shouldn't we Like, not launched until there was zero of that. And I was like, Well

I tend to have the same view that I have on most things, which is You can never get all these things and these complicated systems to zero. So the better thing is Make sure that you've got baseline good. And then be improving constantly.

on the so you you you launch anyway. you know, one of the things that I've helped set up with Various five one C three's is you know, hosted conversations across all the major tech developers to talk about what kinda things could go wrong and what are safety cases and what should be on the test safety thing. So

Like People who are obviously don't have visibility naturally get some Sasationalized, right? And look, having low visibility. A fear response is not irrational.

Right? Because like, what are you guys doing? Are you are you just trying to build an AI that's just kind of trying to manipulate me to buy things I don't know? I don't want? Or you know, or or get really angry. So I spent a bunch of time on social media? Right. Anyway, so so those are all definitely in the concerns, but there's the concerns that you go, let's steer right now. And then let's What are the ones that are dynamic and iterating? And the list of dynamic and iterating is very long. And the list of Prevent Before it could ever launch,

Is compact and fixed. I'm hearing you also say that there just needs to be A lot of intentionality about how we're building these technologies and kind of thinking ahead of time about What are the unintended consequences? Like what could potentially go wrong, but not letting us stop.

our innovation for that. So let's switch to investor mode. The next trillion dollar company. is going to be AI first and it's being born now. You've been investing in AI for many, many years. In fact, I I believe you're one of the early investors in open AI. What do you look for when you're vetting these AI startups? Ca every startup today is an AI startup, right? So how do you truly vet?

What's gonna be transformative. Yeah, and I did actually lead the first kind of commercial round and into open AI. So you look for

A set of characteristics, which are sufficient, you know, kinda knowledge of the technology, an understanding at least of what problems They're going to need to be solving. They may not have the solutions yet, but what problems are and they have a good map. So part of the investor dialogue with them is, you know, how do you see your game? How do you see what the challenge of this is? And, you know, another thing that is kind of a classic regular entrepreneuri failure is I just build a great product and it all works out and you have to have a go to market strategy and distribution strategy, you know, which is as important as your product in most cases, sometimes even more. One of the definitions I read about entrepreneurs Oh gosh, 20 years ago is um an entrepreneur makes plans and outstrip their current resources. That is a truth. It isn't the only thing about entrepreneur, but it's like the, okay.

I'm gonna have to be acquiring capital and talent and customers and go to market and so you have to do all of those kinds of things. So All that characteristic. within The founding team is kind of general across a lot of these things, although some of them tie into the specifics of what the game looks like now.

One of the things I love about entrepreneurship and technology is the game changes on a very fast time pace. So uh an answer now evolves and changes. One of the things about entrepreneurship that's under described is What you're really seeking is to be competitively strong, which means competing against either non-existent competition or weak competition. And if you're jumping into a field where there's like multiple really strong startup competitors, It's much, much harder. Right.

For example, I'm a little bit more cautious about people coming in and saying, I've got a new Chatbot idea. Like well, there's a lot of chatbot ideas that been going for a few years now. So it's you really have to have something that that that's an interesting you know, kind of play. Um but to look at

You know kind of. Like what are other areas that could be really interesting. And also like when you're charting that path ahead. You know, you're skating the where the puck is moving towards and where you're building it towards, not to where the puck is today. Do you have a a good vision of that? So I tend to look for things that are

Not as populated. Right. And it's one of the reasons why I led the series A and Airbnb, you know, and I was Yeah, with the first money in along with Peter Thiel into Facebook And part of the reason why g you know I did the

Angel investment and PayPal and join as an executive. Like in a venture thing, what you're kind of ideally looking for Is at day one of the investment, everyone thinks you're a little crazy. And then at like year two, it's like, Oh yeah, that's credible. And at year three to five, it's obvious. Amazing. All right, we could go on forever, but I am going to wrap up our interview together. So if you could have AI do anything for you.

What would that be? I love Ethan Mullock's line. You know, today's AI is the worst AI you're ever gonna use. Uhhuh. And so This answer should change.

on a regular basis. Today What I Would love AI to do, and I don't think it's quite there yet. I would love it to be a front end to my complete communications inbox.

Everything from email to you know, signal and what's up and Like intelligently triage that. So that I go, okay, like for example, if I wake up in the morning, I don't have to check my email first thing,'cause it'll go I just, you know, talk to the assistant and the assistant goes, These these three things that you really probably need to know right now, first thing in the morning before you go get your coffee. Right. You know. And and by the way.

Here is Ten things. that I might be able to craft good responses to. Here's some drafts. What do you think? Right. But that kind of thing to facilitate 'Cause

Amplification of human potential. And The idea is to still keep me very centrally in the loop. But to give me superpowers. Love that. Well thank you so much for joining us. Well it's a pleasure. I'm I'm looking forward to becoming a

deeply intrigued listener, and you know, occasional participant. So this is awesome. While we still have you. Search for Pioneers of AI wherever you're listening. and subscribe.

You can find the first episode. It's right there in the feed. It features Dr. Joy Bulamwe, who's one of the world's leading experts in algorithmic bias. This is a must-listen for anyone concerned about how to make safe AI that benefits all of us. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered.

I'm Rana El Khalyubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.

Masters of Scale is a wait what original. Our executive producer is Eve Trow. Our senior producer is Trisha Bobida. Rachel and Shikala produce this episode with help from Jordan Smart. They're the ace pioneers of AI team.

The production team for Masters of Scale includes Tucker Legers. Masha Makachanina. Brandon Klein. and Timothy Lu Lee. Our senior talent executive is Stephanie Stern.

Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastonelli and Brian Pugh. Original music by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Le Tal Malad. The scripted narration of Reed Hoffman used in this episode was produced using Reese Feature. with full consent and permission.

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