#321: Brandon Stanton — The Story of Humans of New York and 25M+ Fans

At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. So then also the personal question. No seen it kinda. My cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal and the scale. No

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Hello, boys and girls, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job each and every episode to deconstruct world class performers, experts from various disciplines across all industries. And today we have Brandon Stanton, who is the creator of the number one New York Times bestselling books. Humans in New York, Humans of New York Stories, as well as the children's book, Little Humans of New York. In twenty thirteen, he was named one of the thirty under thirty people changing the world by Time Magazine. Brandon has told stories from around the world in collaboration with the United Nations and was invited to photograph President Obama in the Oval Office. humans of New York is followed by more than twenty five million people. Plus me on several social media platforms. He's a graduate of the University of Georgia and lives in New York City. You can find his work on Instagram at Humans of NY is in New York.

On Facebook, Humans of New York, humansof New York dot com and a video series based on the blog recently became one of the first pieces of original content acquired by Facebook. So you can find that as well, Humans of New York the series. Brendan, welcome to the show. Thanks, Tim. I really appreciate you making the time.

And I've been following your work for quite A few years now. And uh I'm excited to have a chance to to pick at some of the earlier days and explore questions that have been on my mind for a few years now.

So the uh the the the first question I wanted to take a stab at is actually one I'm borrowing from another Georgian uh and that is uh Joe Gebier, the co founder of Airbnb who likes to ask this question, do you remember the first time you got in trouble, or one of the first times You got in trouble.

Oh God. Um the first time I got in trouble. Or a notable time that you got in trouble when you were younger. A notable time I remember um I was sitting in my mom used to take us to the grocery store a lot of times after school and and you know, she was just gonna run in for a few minutes and grab something. And so we were just supposed to sit in the car, um, and I think I was like, you know, nine or ten. Um and I wasn't supposed to touch anything, but there were all these like buttons on the dashboard and things like that. And um I remember she came back out and I think, you know, the alarm's going off and then the the keys, the steering wheels locked, and and you can't move the car.

And I remember that one very vaguely because I wasn't allowed to go to the fall festival at the school that year. Um which it was a um my favorite thing to do because they had like carnival, you know, games and things like that. Um, so going back in my mind about the you know, a painful early time of getting in trouble, you know, that comes into mind. Yeah. homework for this conversation

I was reading up on Some of the earlier days and the particular sense that I wanted to explore Uh was in a previous interview of yours.

And it covers quite a bit of it. But it's it after having flunked out of college and later going back and graduating as a history major with straight A's, and then it goes on to say a number of other things. W did you get into a lot of trouble as a kid or wh what led to the flunking out of college? Right. Well, I mean I always say that you know lot of my early trouble, uh, was coming from this thought that I had to do something really big in the world. And you know, I'm sitting in class all day and I'm learning these kind of, you know, very minute details about things like the Magna Carta and, you know, the compromise of eighteen, whatever. Uh, and none of this really seemed important at all. Because, you know, I felt that

I felt that I was, you know, my purpose had to be much greater than this, and then how am I gonna use any of this in life? Um, and so like, you know, I spent all of my time, you know, back then I was smoking a lot of weed, um and just like trying to think about what my big idea and what my contribution to the world was going to be. And instead of going to class I was doing that, you know, instead of really kind of working to improve myself, you know, I was doing that just, you know pontificating and then just like thinking all the time about, you know, what my contribution to the world is going to be. Uh and that was the time that I flunked out. And you know, things

really started moving forward for me was when I threw in the towel, you know, I waved the white flag, I said, you know, I'm I'm gonna stop trying to figure out you know, what the big thing I'm supposed to accomplish is and I'm just going to start doing what I was supposed to do. And you know, I started riding the bus and and started going to community college, Georgia perimeter college. I got my grades back up. I went back to the University of Georgia where I flunked out of And you know, I focused on becoming a disciplined person and you know having a routine in my life of working out every day. playing piano every single day, doing my homework. And you know, it's funny because When I stop trying to think about this big thing

that I was going to accomplish in life and started just focusing on putting one foot in front of the other every single day. it began to propel me on the journey that ultimately led to humans of New York and Which was something bigger than the than I could have ever imagined.

When I was hitting the bong. in the Creswell dorm at the University of Georgia. Now This preoccupation that you had with your Big contribution to the world.

I don't know how common that is. I didn't have that Preoccupation. Did you did that from parents? Did that come from a book you read? Where did that come from? Psychedelic mushrooms might have had a little something to do with it. It it's just like I spent so much time, you know, I had a very intelligent group of friends and you know so much of you know my sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty Um was just uh I guess partaking in these recreational activities

trying to figure out what is truth, you know, like what is W what is the meaning of all of this? And like all of these kind of big questions. Uh Compared to which Uh

you know, these intricacies of things like calculus and algebra and, you know, verb conjugations and French and You know, all these subjects I was being forced to do in school seemed so minor and not useful to what I really wanted to understand. And you know, alongside these kind of like big questions about, you know, why are we here and and what is this all about came this kind of feeling And you know, I think some sort of kind of vague like spirituality was wrapped up in it as well.

that you know this is a this This world is is so amazing and the fact that we're here is so amazing and Doing anything less than something amazing. You know, this this whole reason that you're here.

Um and I I think that's that was the kind of thinking You know, that brought me down this path. you know, my time was too good and and and my thoughts like you know, the the space in my brain was too precious. to you know, fill it up with all these you know little

Th this homework and this and this stuff that seems so unimportant. Uh and so instead I just, you know, spent all my time just kind of grappling with these with these bigger things. What was it like growing up in Marietta, Georgia, am I right?

Yeah. And were you and were you born in Georgia also? Yeah, I was born in Georgia. I mean I am somebody who has liked everywhere I've ever been. I liked my school, I liked my college, I liked the community college I went to after I flunked out of my college. Uh I liked Atlanta, uh I liked Chicago, I love New York. You know, I'm I'm generally somebody who appreciates the the place that I'm in. Uh I tend to find that people complaining about where they live not

Always. You can there's always some place that you can be that might be better for you. But if you hate the place that you live, if you if you kind of just despise it, um I find that a lot of times a new environment is not the key. to your happiness, uh,'cause I find that a lot of times that people that are complaining about one place when they move to another place, then you know, if it's if they live in Atlanta and the answer's New York.

Then when they get to New York, you know what? New York's dead. The answer's LA. When they get to LA, oh the American values suck. Need to get to Paris. You know, when they get when they get to Paris, oh you know, the West is is so you know, it's so materialistic. I need to go to India. You know what I mean? I find a lot of times the place that kind of the people who kind of externalize their environment as being the reason for their dissatisfaction tend to be unsatisfied everywhere. Uh I kinda the opposite. You know, I've loved

the every place that I've lived, I I've loved the people Um, you know, that I've met in every place I lived. Marietta was Starbucks and Barnes and Noble, but I had a great Great group of friends and You know, I I enjoyed growing up there. I don't know why this is the case, but it particularly in the last six months I've been more and more fascinated by the earlier stages with almost everyone I've been chatting with. The history major. You graduate with straight A's

And then You end up and I know you've you've you've spoken quite a bit about this, we we won't belabor the point, but you get a job as a bond trader. in in Chicago is my understanding. And it was sort of the right the first time that You weren't embarrassed in front of family and friends about where your life was going. You get this this prestigious job. How did how did you go about choosing that job or finding that job, or how did it find you from from from history, right?

Right. So I mean the whole reason I became I mean to give you to catch up a little bit. Um you know, when I first went to the University of Georgia I was majoring in business. That's when I wasn't going to class Uh I flunked out. Uh and then when I decided to go back to college, you know, I thought to myself, Well, I'm just going to study something that I enjoy anyway, so it's not this kind of you know major force of effort to go to class and to do my work. Um at that time I had developed a reading habit. That was really when my life kind of turned around. Cause remember, you know, I I I stopped thinking about these kind of big problems I wanted to solve and you know I started focusing on, you know, establishing a routine and some discipline in my life.

And one of the first Big ones and still probably the most monumental routine that I ever established and decision I ever made was that I was going to read one hundred pages a day. Um mostly nonfiction. And whether the book was The Little Prince or it was something like The Wealth of Nations, you know, whether it took me an hour or whether it took me eight hours. Every single day I was going to read 100 pages, and I did that for years. Uh even when I went back to school, in addition to my schoolwork, I would read a hundred pages. Sorry to interrupt, but what catalyzed that decision? It's like this, it was this feeling, I mean, psychologically, you know, it was like this feeling of being, you know, maybe behind.

You know, I I I remembered I remembered um You know The one of the very first books that I read was uh this autobiography of you know Ben Franklin and you know he has all these kind of you know he did the poor Richards almanac and he has all these kind of sayings and I remember, you know, first of all, Ben Franklin himself was kind of the pioneer in in getting self improvement down to a science. You know what I mean? And um

So, you know, his example, first of all, of how much he you know, how much effort he put into improving himself and moving himself forward. And then I remember he had this one quote. you know that um uneducated genius is like finding silver in the mine You know, and it kind of it it You know, made me think that You know, I had spent all this time

kind of you know thinking and kind of pondering Uh And I thought that I was, you know, that school was beneath me and school was boring. And you know, because of that, I really hadn't been imbibing much information. And you know, at that time it something kinda flipped and I felt like, you know, I've missed out. on you know probably the last four or six years of education because I was just doing the minimum, you know, I was I was just getting by and writing my papers before class, you know, I was probably looking at the person's next to me's paper, you know, a few times

And so it's like even though I was making okay grades, I really wasn't you know, taking in a lot of information and educating myself. And so, you know, I think that at that time I decided I was going to become extremely educated. And you know, I did. I did become an extremely educated person. But you know Ninety five percent of that education was outside of school. You know, ninety five percent of that education was over the course of seven or eight years uh Uh Saying I'm going to read one hundred pages of nonfiction a day.

Every single day. And I did it for seven or eight years, I'd say Sixty percent of that was biography. Uh I would say another twenty percent of it was history. Uh and then you know, I and it wasn't I would read fiction too, you know, when I was absolutely tired of eating my vegetables. And I um that's what I that's what I would call, you know, the most boring books, you know, the really kind of conceptual one I just viewed as vegetables, you know, I was just like it was some

Sometimes sometimes hard to get through. The fiber of knowledge. Yeah. You know, but it you you it it it grows and it kinda it kinda develops you. Um but yeah, you know, so biographies were the ones that I was really, really drawn to. Um and so You know, at the time You know, I started like kind of reading all these biographies and I was loving it, and biography is just history. You know, biography is the best form of history, if you ask me, because it it cuts through the theory, it cuts through, you know, all the speculation of the author, and we get down to the nuts and the bolts of the decisions that people made in their lives. And I think that is the purest form of education that you can get. And it is the advice that I give people who don't know what they want to do with their lives. Pick somebody that you admire and read their biography. Read their biography. If you really want some sort of guidance in your life.

Pick somebody who who's done things that you want to do and that you really admire and read a nice fat eight hundred page biography of their lives. Find out the struggles they went through. Find out the you know the twists and turns of their lives and the decisions they made. And I mean I don't think there's any better actionable roadmap, actionable education, than getting down the granular level of somebody's life and finding out how they navigated it. If uh if someone wanted to Let's just say that they are having a a lapse of concentration and can't think of people

they admire who have biographies. If you were to recommend Any let's just say one to three biographies as gateway drugs into that world. Are there any that come to mind? It depends upon what you want to accomplish in life. Like if you're just flagging and you don't know what you want to do, uh start with Ben Franklin. Start with somebody who is who is, you know, very disciplined and, you know, programmatic in in figuring out how to develop themselves. Again, my advice always to people who are stuck in is quit looking at the big pictures. People get stuck because they want to accomplish too big a things and they don't know the right step to take. So you know, I always say just kind of instead of focusing on the year, instead of focusing on the arc of your life, focus on the twenty four hour period. And nobody mastered the twenty four hour period more than Benjamin Franklin. So it's like if you have no idea what you want to do, start there, I would say. If you know what you want to do, you've got to pick the person that you admire the most. You know, do you want to participate in social movements? You know, pick

Martin Luther King. Uh do you want to be president of the United States? If you want to pick be president of the United States, I would recommend Lyndon Johnson. Uh Lyndon Johnson, because he was probably the president that was given the least y in his life, except for maybe Abraham Lincoln. You know, he was the pre- he didn't go to Ivy League. You know, he didn't Um he wasn't necessarily a a great looking guy, you know, he went to San Marcos teacher college. He You know, basically he and again, this is if if you want to be president, I don't want to be president. Uh he You know, worked his way up through understanding how the levers of democracy work, le the levers of power in our government work. Uh and so he is a fascinating character sketch on how to be president. Uh if you want to read uh a Lyndon Johnson biography, you should read the four volume biography by Robert Carrow, uh which is the best of those. Um but you know, other than that, it just like it all depends upon

what it is that you want to do in life. You know, there's there's just no biography that every person should read. They should pick the person they admire the most and read the biography of their life. With Ben Franklin it would it be the uh a biography like Walter Isaacson or would you Isaac the the Isaac the Isaacson one was the one I read. And that stands out the most because it was the first. The p person that I've read the most biographies on Uh probably Theodore Roosevelt. Um just because his life is so fascinating. Um, probably Adolf Hitler, probably Stalin. And it's not because it in any way these people are admirable, but like as a history major, to me it wasn't the individual themselves that was fascinating. To me it was how does a group of people, you know, Germany was a smart industrialized country.

To me, the big philosophical question that fascinated me and the and the reason that I I've delved so much in into the lives and and the practices of of dictators Is You know, how is it that a group of such educated smart Well meaning people.

Uh we're we're able to be, you know, um ever to be able to be organized under the, you know, the premise of committing such evil. And that to me has has always fascinated me because I believe that people are inherently good. And you know, I've traveled to thirty or forty different countries and you know it's funny, every place has a reputation. Oh Don't go to this city, people won't talk to you. You know, so many times when I land in a place, they say, you know, oh, this isn't gonna work here. You know, people People aren't open here, people aren't friendly here. And you know, I find one on one

people all over the world, you know, are very they they they kind of share You know, a a s a similar soul, I guess. And you know If people are generally the same everywhere You know the

Then that means Anywhere. Something like this could happen. Right. Any anywhere. You know, people can

Pulled into this crowd psychology. And you know, direct their anger and their hatred and violence. Toward people.

In a way that would counterdict their morals if you met them one on one. And you know, because of that the the the lives and the periods of history that have always been Most intellectually interesting to me. Again, it's not something I admire. It's not something I I'm looking to duplicate, of course. Uh have have been these periods

Where a very driven ideological individual has managed to to mobilize a group of people Towards ends.

that looking back from a historical perspective were brutal and violent and absolutely unexplainable. And you know, I think it's important to understand these things to keep it from happening again. Do you remember you asked about bond trading? Like six questions ago I never we talked about it. And I Well the whole reason I I think you know I started talking about histories because bond trading was really an anomaly in my life. Um I was really kind of wrapped up in all these things that we're talking about now. You know, I was really kind of wrapped up in in history and and and biography mainly. Um When

Obama. Uh It was God, what was it? Two thousand and eight, two thousand and seven? I think it was two thousand seven. He was in the primary. Um and I was I really became fixated on this campaign

Uh and you know, I was not I was going to knock on doors, uh and d this was during the primary when he's going up against Hillary. And I was knocking on doors. I was going to different states and knocking on doors and And um I was reading every article about the the delegate system and super delegates. And you know, there's this point where I was just absolutely positive he was going to win. I was this is the primary. I was just absolutely positive he was going to win. Um and I was broke at the time. Uh this is n not something I would ever do today. Um but I took out five thousand dollars in student loans and I actually bet on Barack Obama. Back then it was an Irish exchange. It has since gone under. It was called In Trade.

Um, and I think they had him at like forty percent chance to win at that time Um and he had like a seventy percent chance for the Or something. And so, you know, I I didn't make a ton of money off of it because it took me like a week to wire my money to um Ireland. And in the time that I was wiring my money

Exactly. And so um you know, I ended up only making I mean I made like, you know, a thousand, twelve hundred dollars, which for me as a college student was all the money in the world. Uh but more fatefully Uh I was telling that story just like I'm telling it to you. Uh to a friend of mine who worked in Chicago. Uh And he was a

Trader, he's a bond trader. I was telling him that story and he told me, you know, the The one differentiator uh between successful traders and unsuccessful traders in our office. is their um their comfort with risk taking. Uh and based on that story, um

You know, I would like you to talk to my boss. Um, that story. Um well yeah, it's the you know, I think I think it was kind of the the comfort with risk taking. And so, you know, at that time I was You know, I I didn't know what I wanted to do again. I just studied history because I was I enjoyed it and I s uh I really enjoyed it. Um, and so he got me an an interview with his boss and it was scheduled. And I mean, this is somebody who went to an Ivy League school and you know, he had studied finance his entire life and he had gotten this job, so I thought this was an opportunity I would not have any other way and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do at the time. It was a history major. Um and so I had like a month to prepare, so I read

About twenty books on the market. Uh and then I went into the interview and uh At that time I was very well um versed on how markets worked and Uh that's how I got that job. Good thing you had all that reading practice.

Go. Yeah. Yeah. What was your first week as a bond trader like? Um, well, I mean and

See, this is the and I always try to say, you know, when I uh I mean if somebody has just listened to this interview up until this point, you know, I think it's we w we talk about, you know, bond trading and dictators, you know. Squid. Which really has nothing to do with my life now.

Um, but you know, I And and I think the narrative that people in interviews always try to put on me is that'cause I mean it's a fun narrative. Oh, chasing the money, you know, doing this soul sucking finance job and then you know, cut the rope behind him to pursue his true passion, which was taking photographs and art and I mean there's a There's a kernel of truth there. Um You know, but

The the real story is that markets were fascinating to me. I you know, I I I'm still fascinated by markets. You know, they seem so tangible when you're watching CNBC and you're seeing these numbers and it seems all so mathematical. But in reality, markets are are nothing but a bunch of people arguing over what something's worth. You know, it's just like it's a a market if you if you remove the computer and you know go back you know fifty years, a market is a crowd people haggling over what something that is impossible to value is worth. And the the the number that comes out of it is is really based on psychology and it's based on this this back and forth over over, you know, what these numbers mean. And you know, that was always so interesting to me. Um and and it remains, you know, very interesting to me. So I was philosophically very interested in markets. And uh I was I I was fascinated by bond trading. And you know, I I was obsessed with it, to be honest, for two years.

Um and It was a type of bond trading we were very highly leveraged and so you know, it was a tight where there was just huge gains or huge losses like every single night. uh, you know, I compare it to like playing a very high stakes game of poker every single night. And so it was It was extremely uh, you know, I d I don't think I could do it today. I was in my early twenties at the time. It was just

There's just adrenaline pumping through my body at all times. And You know, I was In and that when you when you take something that is you're you're naturally kind of philosophically interested in and and you parrot with um

you know, a large amount of money. uh and a large amount of excitement. It it creates this this fixation. It's almost like crack, you know, where it's just all you can think about at any given time. And you know, when I go to colleges and I s give speeches on, you know, the the path of humans of New York And you know, what led me to kind of pursue this life that was, you know, outside of books and outside of computer screens.

was that, you know, I After the end of two years when I lost my job, I kind of looked back and At You know the time that I had spent that two years and it w it wasn't

the physical time that was lost that was most concerning to me. It was that I had spent two years Using all of my intellect and all of my creative energy. Trying to figure out how to be the most effective relative value trader in fixed income securities in the Asian markets.

It was something It was just something that was so narrow and so myopic and I couldn't even talk with my friends about it. And At the end of two years, you know, that was we'd gone through the financial crisis, I'd lost everything I'd ever made. You know, when I when I lost that job, it was a very lucrative job potentially.

But when I lost that job I was broke because I lost everything. Why did you lose the job? What happened? Uh well, I mean the it it depends upon how much personal responsibility I want to take. You know, I think the the i the m the the narrative that's most protective of the ego is that we had a type of trading uh that was calibrated to work during periods of low volatility. Um the years From I'd guess nineteen ninety five or whatever, or after the whenever you know, I don't I don't know when my math is right, but you know, like late nineties to you know, two thousand eight were periods of historically low volatility were the type of trading that we were doing worked. And during

When the financial crisis hit in two thousand and eight, volatility went through the roof. Uh long story short, the type of trading that we were doing. Um stopped working. And uh the company when that had been around for over a decade. was out of business uh about a year after I left.

Um so that's the that is the the part of the s that that's the way of explaining that that avoids the most personal responsibility. Um if I was to explain it in the way that, you know, makes myself the most personally responsible. Uh markets changed and I wasn't uh adaptive enough to figure it out. Uh I kept banging my head against the same things that used to be working. Uh I refuse to I refuse to fully embrace the fact that what worked for me extremely well for a year had stopped working. Uh and because of that the the the risk calculations had changed and instead of making a lot of money every night, I was losing a lot of money every night. Um and I eventually got to the point where, you know, I I was no longer a productive member of the firm.

Uh And so yeah, it depends upon which story you want to tell. I think the truth is probably somewhere in between the two. Uh, but regardless, I ended up without A job. Well thank you for telling

Or sharing both versions of that. And No, it's it's it's I I think that that Also Reflects

A level of objectivity or an ability to detach and observe that has always fascinated me uh about you, quite frankly. Um, which certainly translates I think in a very empathic way later and we'll we'll get to that. But I want to talk about the finance world and markets for just a second, because as you noted, it's it's very

Tempting. for someone who's trying to weave a narrative. Soul sucking period, sees the light. Cuts the tether, burns the ships.

off into the arts and true passion. But The the markets, as you noted, are really fascinating. And I was chatting with Uh someone I've just gotten to know actually in the last few weeks. A

Let's call I suppose you could call him a wealth manager, but seventy five percent of what he does is invest in m in bonds. He probably wouldn't call it trading, but And he said something to me that that has stuck in my mind for a while now which is you know I learn more in the first two to four hours of sitting down and talking to someone about money than their therapists have probably learned over the last

Two to four years. And getting to see how people respond. to money and loss aversion and the Yeah. is in and of itself fascinating. Then you add in

thousands and millions of market participants. It gets even more interesting and then When at least in in my limited experience. When I read something, my exposure to bonds is very limited, but when you read something like Liar's Booker uh by Michael Lewis, which I think is a fantastic book. And the the part that stuck out to me where I was like, Okay I need to be very careful about playing this game because I've got my face ripped off is there's some part and I'm gonna get all the details, but there's some guy who's nicknamed like Fat Tony.

And he's a big wig at Solomon Brothers. And he bets his buddies that the markets for Whatever double A bonds and X, Y, and Z are going up. And he's he bets them and it's this dick measuring contest. And it he puts fifty million into the market and it and it goes down. And uh and so his his friends are busting his balls and he's then they're like, ah, market's going up, huh? And so he instead of putting fifty million in, he's like, Fuck it, and he puts five hundred million in and like all the other market participants panic, thinking that he has information they don't, and so the market goes up and he says, See, I told you the market was going up. And I was like, Oh my God.

This is not nearly as clean. As the textbooks would want you to believe. Well I would I would um you know I as somebody who's interviewed ten thousand people, I I would say that you know, talking with somebody about their money and how they choose to use their money will give you a insight into a very limited uh A and I I mean maybe maybe I'm I'm wrong, but like a a very limited aspect of their personality, which is their comfort with risk. And uh you know, I think there's I think our our approach to money and our approach to trading and our approach to to to markets are are very much kind of driven by like our our animal spirits, uh you know, greed and fear and things

like that. Um but you know I I feel that the you know kind of the the there's a a huge a huge portion of people's lives and kind of thought lives that are Um you know, kind of separate and you know, isolated from from that those drives. You know what I mean? Those those very kind of primal drives of of wanting wanting more and being afraid to lose. I mean that's that's really what what drives the markets is is the is the greed and the fear. Uh is and I you know, I think

I think talking, you know, with somebody about their you know, their those those two drives and where their greed comes from and where their fear comes from. You know, it'll it'll give you you know, it'll give you it'll give you some insight. But you know, I Yeah, to me the The markets, you know, they There's

y they they can only tell you so much. Um and they can only you know it's such a it's such a it's it's a part of human existence, the the the drives that that control a market. Um But you know, there's so much that people care about outside of that. And I think that was what was so dangerous about just being a trader. Is that You know, you're you're you're burying so much of your thought energy into just

The desire for more and the fear of losing. You know what I mean? That kind of the kind of narrow animalistic drives that that you know that that push a market up s up and down and you're kind of tethering yourself to that. Uh and you just kind of miss out on so much of the life that's going on around you. And this is me. You know, this is me. I think it's part of my personality that once I dive into something, it's I do it to the exclusion of almost everything else. Uh one of the reasons humans of New York uh ended up becoming so successful. Uh I did know, you know, some of uh you know, more the exception than the rule. There are people Who were so

in control of their emotions or maybe they don't have the same emotional range as other people um that are able to turn off their computer every single day go home and not think about the markets and com kind of completely leave them there. Um but you know for me it was something that you know, was kind of all consuming for me. And you know, when I made the the decision to pursue something more artistic, uh Um was when, you know, I had kind of I had kind of lost my job.

And I was looking back at the two years of my life and I was thinking God, you know, and and after I lost my job, you know, I I was so scared of that day. You know, during the two years when I was obsessing over markets and then things started going bad, you know, there was nothing I was more afraid of than losing that job. And then on the day that it happened, it was surprisingly a good day.

Because I remember taking a walk that day and I started asking myself things like what do I wanna do? You know, like what what do I want to do? Things. Something like if I could do anything with my time, what would I do? And I had I had been for two years like so focused on keeping that job, you know, that I had didn't I

I had never I didn't have room in my brain. And so, you know, at that moment I decided, you know, I've lost these two years of not only my time, but more importantly, I've lost two years of my thoughts. Focusing on this this

This game. This game for making money. But You know, when you when you boil it down, it's a game.

And I said, you know, I'm gonna spend the next foreseeable future. instead of my spending my time, you know, trying to to make money. You know, I'm gonna try to make just enough money to where I can control my time. and just do something that I enjoy doing for no other reason.

then it is nourishing in the moment. Not that at the end of the day I'm gonna have a profit. But because it's nourishing in the moment. And at that time it was photography.

And the whole reason I think you know one of the the best you know, the kind of the neatest things about humans of New York is that over the past eight years, you know, humans of New York has become largely you know, the most, you know, followed photography project in the world with, you know, I think twenty five million on social media now. And it's eight years old. And I think one of the coolest things is I just started photographing about eight years ago. You know, I started taking photos during this time that I'm talking with you about.

And the whole reason I started taking photos. was because I was trying to create some space in my mind away from work. I was desperate for something to do on the weekends. That You know

d that would would give me this this foothold in my brain where I had a sense of purpose and a sense of identity outside how the markets were doing every single day. And so I bought this camera. I started going to downtown Chicago and photographing You know, just everything.

Uh and I loved it. And not long after I lost my job. And I made the decision that I was gonna be a photographer, not because I was very skilled at it at the time. You know, not because I thought it was an angle towards success and not because I thought it was an angle towards an audience.

is that I just loved doing it in the moment. It was nourishing in the moment. And so I found this thing. that was nourishing in the moment that I enjoyed doing and And I said, you know, I'm going to try to structure my life. Around creating

As much time for this as possible. I want to make the minimum amount of I just I wanna make just enough money And the journey

that ended up creating humans of New York was my attempt To create that space in my life. And that space in my head To focus on something

That was very nourishing in the moment. How did you cover your expenses in the very early Days of that experience. This was two thousand and eight. Um we had a I believe

A record Amount of time that you could get unemployment. And I had just lost my job. And so I got six hundred and twenty dollars, I think, every two weeks. Uh

from the government because I was unemployed and I had worked for two years. Um, so that was enough. To Basically Just

Hey. My rent in a sublease that I found on Craigslist. Uh in Bedford Stuyvesant, Brooklyn. Uh that was enough to pay that and maybe have peanut butter jelly sandwiches and eggs. Um

Assuming that you needed no other expenses. That you wore the same clothes and the same shoes. Uh that was enough. For me to just eat. sleep and photograph all day long. Um and once I got to have a you know a decent level of skill, uh and I mean just a passable level of skill

Uh if anybody would pay me to take portraits for them I would do that. I somebody hired me to do their wedding. Um and uh I basically I just I I didn't spend money on anything. All I did was photograph all day long. Because I knew that I was like I was making this pivot in my life to where I was going after kind of a lucrative career.

towards I was going towards just wanting to spend my time doing something. All day long. Uh and so, you know, and I became obsessed with photography in the same way that I was obsessed with markets. I mean, I just I I loved it. I just loved it. It was like a treasure hunt. I mean, just going out. It was so different than trading too. I mean it was I'm outside. I'm interacting with the world. I'm having conversations. You know, I'm I'm having these I'm little adventures and and discovering these new things and I was just hooked on it and I was just obsessed with it. And you know, I knew I was making a lot of sacrifices.

to be doing this in my life Uh, so I didn't do anything else. You know, I didn't go to concerts, I didn't go out to restaurants, I I really I didn't spend much time with friends because I didn't really know anybody in New York. Uh I mean that's another crazy detail about humans of New York, is that humans of New York is an eight year old photography project, uh, you know, based on people in New York City. Uh, you know, I took my first f photograph eight years ago and I went to New York for the very first time in my life eight years ago. Um so it was, you know, all it was all just uh very new and all very driven by the desire to photograph all day long. Was the move to New York Related to the desire.

To take photographs or was it uh something else? So I mean what I did is so I got fired. Uh and I started My goal was like I gotta I wanna find out how to be a photographer. You know, I love photography. How am I gonna create a life where I can support myself and photograph all day long?

And so I was just outdoing it every single day. And then I started kind of along with the graffiti and along with the you know architectural shots. And along with the nature shots. I started photographing people. And I noticed that these

Out of everything I was photographing. The photographs of people were the most unique. They're the ones that that w least resembled everything else I was seeing being put on Facebook and stuff like that. Um, and so I decided to kind of focus on that. And then while focusing on that I started stopping people on the street.

And asking for their photo. And because of that extra layer of difficulty of having to approach a stranger the portraits that I was taking of people were more different

than the the candid ph photos I was taking of people. And so I started focusing solely on that. You know, and that's when I kind of started having an idea. that even though I hadn't been photographing so long, I was heading in a direction that was pretty unique. because I was stopping random people on the streets. Um

in a very you know I know some people will do series, but I was doing this every single day and I was getting quite a collection. And this seemed like kind of a new a kind of fresh type of photography, so it's all I did. And then I started traveling to different cities. I went to Philadelphia, just stopping people. Then I went to New Orleans. Um, I went back to Atlanta and did this. And then I traveled to New York. And when I got to New York

And I was stopping people And asking for their photographs. Um I realized that New York if you were going to try to do this type of photography was the best place to be. I mine

mainly just just practical reasons. Uh that you you don't need a car in New York. I didn't have a car. Um and I couldn't afford a car. Y uh you can just ride the subway everywhere, you can walk everywhere, and there's so many people. I mean there's so many people I remember coming out of the Lincoln Tunnel the very first time

And looking down and I couldn't even see the sidewalk. It was rush hour and the it was just there were so many people and I thought You know, if I'm going to do this type of photography Uh this is the place to do it. And I wasn't doing any interviews at this time. And I mean that's that's the thing, is like the humans of New York that I moved to New York to do looks nothing like the the humans of New York that later became successful. I mean it was really just the impetus to get me on the ground working every day to kind of figure it out along the way. Uh you know, my very first idea for humans of New York.

was I was going to photograph ten thousand people. in New York City across all five boroughs and I was gonna plot their photo on a map. That was my idea of how I was going to make a life out of being a photographer is I was gonna be the guy who did that. And uh it was That was kind of what got me on the ground.

Got me out on the streets every single day, approaching hundreds and thousands of people. uh and put me in the situation where I could kind of innovate And I could start having conversations with these people. Which turned into

which turned into eventually seven years later. the kind of ninety minute to an hour and a half long very kind of probing and and and therapeutic and and psychological interviews. That I have with random strangers.

Every single day. the result of which and the output of which uh became the stories That I think people are so connected with and and the stories that really make humans of New York humans of New York. How are you getting better at photography s uh during this say first let's just call it six month period since you

Certainly seems to be a little bit more. from all indications to be someone who goes for total immersion and whether it's reading ten to twenty books on the markets before an interview. Uh you go a hundred percent into whatever subject matter you choose. How are you getting better? What books were you reading, who are you studying, what were you trying

I mean I was too addicted to taking photos to ever stop for a second. And learn about photography. I have One memory.

I have one memory of going to Barnes and Noble'cause I can afford to buy any books. Uh I have a one memory of going to Barnes and Noble one night and flipping through some photography books and and enjoying the photos, but Uh I just I I just wanted to be out taking pictures, you know. I I I didn't really want to be studying how to take a correct photo. You know, I just wanted to be out photographing. It was the the act of it, the act of discovery, you know, and I had a very amateur view of photography at the time where is if you if you get something or somebody interesting in the frame, it's a great photo. I don't care how many points of perspective it has, I don't care about the rules of thirds. I honestly don't really even care about white balance or focus or any of these things.

I was just looking for for wonderful people and and wonderful moments that were happening. I was still doing a lot of candid photography of people. Uh and if I if I captured that, that was a good photo. And that's that's all I cared about. And that was what was driving me for these, you know, these first several months and and this first year, year and a half, when I took thousands and thousands of pictures, and I was getting better. Slowly. I mean I'm

I'm I'm not n necessarily bragging about that kind of aversion to formal training as if it was some sort of badge of honor. It was just the way my psychology was h hardwired. And because of that I might have improved

More slowly than somebody else. And in fact I might have improved so slowly that I'm sure a lot of professional photographers look down on my photography still. But by being that engaged and emerged in the process as opposed to any sort of uh a formal structure of what makes a photograph I

Innovated. my own style. I innovated my own type of work. that Later on, you know, people have have uh introduced me to Studs Turkle, and people introduced me to, you know, to these these these wonderful photographers of the past who took these, you know, you know, Jacob Reese and who took these wonderful photos of regular people.

Uh that my work, you know, kind of grew to resemble But I mean any resemblance. just came out of being on the street and doing it all day long and just and and figuring out, you know, what it was that I liked the most. And without any education of what a correct photograph was.

And you know I think a if humans of New York has original elements. If if humans of New York is original in any way It was because I was just so addicted to taking photos that I never stopped to learn about photography. And Because of that.

You know, I I just I was figuring it out as I went along. Well it seems to me also that there are Many different facets of photography, one component of which is the technical knowledge, but

certainly another component of which is choosing the subject matter. Right? And Thinking about the story that an image Tell so you were learning about photography, but you were doing it vis vis vis the sheer volume of experience that you were gathering behind the camera. And walking through New York City.

Right. Well, I was just you know, I was looking for anyone who anything that captured my attention or curiosity at all got photographed. I mean, and that's one of the beautiful things about digital cameras, is I mean, you can just take a thousand photos every single day. Um, and so you don't have to worry about conserving film. Like you can just photograph everything. And so anything that caught my eye got photographed. And then when you go home and you load your thousand pictures on the computer and you start going through and because you don't know how to photograph, you photograph that person fifty different times.

and you're finding the one that you think looks the best. And then you're going and you're doing it again and you're doing it again, and suddenly you're not taking fifty photos of each person, you're taking 40, then 30, then 20, and then 10, as you start to get an idea of what it is that you think is a great photo and what it is that you like. Uh, and that was kind of really how I was honing in on my style again. which might still be considered primitive, it still might be considered unschooled by a lot of people. But I was just honing in on what I liked about a photo. Um, and that's that was the process.

What were you What were you doing with these photos in the in the beginning, or maybe a better question is when you first started putting photos online, what did that look like? Um, at first I was putting the I had um one of my main Kind of.

Weaknesses and blind spots in the beginning. was not understanding the importance of daily content because you know I had never had a blog before. Um and so I kind of had this great and I I mean it kind of mirrors my my journey as a college student where I was like trying to do something huge instead of focusing on doing something every single day. Um, and so I was I had this huge kind of sweeping project of I was gonna photograph ten thousand people and plot their photos on a map. I was dumping about thirty or forty of these portraits every single day onto this website that I had that nobody was going to and the numbers I I even had a counter on the top of the website counting counting up to 10,000 because that's all I cared about was the end. I was gonna get 10,000. I was gonna create this sweeping photography project. Um Was it called Humans of New York at the time or what was it?

Um and it things really s and and nobody was really pay attention, and I was taking hundreds and thousands of portraits. And things really started to get traction. When I started Posting the photos as I got them onto social media, mainly Facebook, that is when things really started to grow.

And the focus of humans of New York moved away. From this giant sweeping Project. of that was going to cover the entire city of New York and be some sort of representation of New York City.

And it's switched much more to about the individual. Who is this person that I'm meeting? Each day. And it became something more

Uh and that's when things uh really started growing. Brendan, I'd love to ask you about The green lady. If that rings a bell. Could you

Please describe for folks. The experience of the green lady. So I mean, I'm in New York.

And I've been trying to make this work Uh for about six months now. And six months Mm you know, that time of my life was probably the equivalent of about two years of work. Uh because I worked every single day. I worked on Christmas. I worked on Thanksgiving. Um I didn't go home. All I did was photograph all day long. You know, I would

Go out. I would I would just photograph people, I'd come home, I would take a nap, and then I would go out at night Uh and and try to get some more photos. And so I had I had gotten thousands of these portraits and Not many people were paying attention. I think I had just kind of started posting my photos on Facebook.

And um I photographed this woman. And she was dressed all in green. And she had Green hair and green makeup. And

I remember it was a it was a photo that I I didn't like. I thought it was a very bad photo. And I wasn't even going to really post it on the blog. Uh but then I remembered that she had said something to me. She had said I used to be a different color. Every single day.

But then one day I was green, and that was a great day. And so I've been green for fifteen years. And I I remember

thinking to myself, well, I don't really like the photograph, uh, but I'm gonna try putting this quote above it that she said. And I posted it onto Facebook and And suddenly It was the most engaged with photo that I'd ever posted. Uh I think we're talking like sixty-seven likes at this time. There was not a lot of people following my page. Um And it really

It was kind of a a Eureka moment because It really made sense that, you know, in this during these months and almost a year of of doing nothing but approaching random people in the street and asking for their photograph. Uh

The thing that strangely I had gotten to be an expert at But it was the approaching strangers. And the the walking up to random people.

Uh getting rejected a lot of times and not letting that affect my my mood. Uh and then once meeting somebody, you know, in a very short amount of time, making that person comfortable And Kinda the Eureka moment was If

That is what I've become good at. If that is what I have to offer the world Shouldn't I Now that I've gotten over this fear of approaching a stranger. use that opportunity to learn a little bit about this person.

So that I can share a little bit about this person with other people. Who might be curious of the people around them. But haven't been able to overcome that fear of talking to strangers.

And you know, it turned out That the audience for that the the amount of people who were curious of the lives of the people around them but were too afraid to ask uh you know ended up being hundreds then thousands And then tens of thousands and millions and then now tens of millions.

And you know, from that moment on humans of New York stopped being a photography project. I I don't even view myself as a photographer. You know, you can you can write a a three page essay about why I'm a horrible photographer and it's been done. Many times. Uh

And it it doesn't really bother me because I stopped viewing myself as a photographer a long time ago. Uh the photography's really secondary to humans of New York. You know, humans of New York is my effort. In a short of time as possible to make a random person on the street Comfortable enough.

And seem that and and seem like somebody's interested enough in their lives. That they'll share their story with me. And they'll share something deep and vulnerable and real and honest about their lives. So that I can share that.

with millions of people every single night. Uh and humans of New York over the past six years has been my effort. Two Get as good at that as possible.

This this is a perfect segue. to asking about the approaches and questions. Which is Which is the really important thing. I've spent the entire I feel guilty'cause I spent the entire If you look.

I have not posted a picture of myself. On humans of New York. in years. Uh I don't I don't do it. Uh I find I find that humans of New York is best when I'm the most invisible. Uh I feel that the the less humans of New York is about Brandon Stanton.

the more influential humans of New York has become Um so yeah, it's uh It it feels very unnatural to uh have spent an hour talking already and talk nothing about myself. So please. So I'm gonna ask about the work and you can uh you can talk about yourself in third person if it makes it feel better, but I will have to I will have to involve you in this. When

What do you say when you call to approach someone? on the street. Assuming that now Of course. You could use humans of New York and a lot of people would recognize it and you could break the ice that way. Early on when nobody would recognize that

How did you how did you open it? And then Wha what did you use to break the ice in the first sixty seconds? Uh first thing always is do you mind if I take your photograph? Um that was the first thing. And I mean these are all

Little things I learned is you don't walk up to somebody and ask, Do you have a minute? the you know, because that immediately puts somebody on defensive because especially in New York City People are walking up to you all day long trying to sell you something, asking for money. So people are naturally very defensive. Um so I don't want my my goal is to get into it as soon as possible to so people realize that this is something a little bit different, and I'm not looking to for their money. That's the main thing. You know, I'm not looking for their money. Um so I normally walk up and I say, uh, do you mind if I take your photograph? Um I run a website called Humans of New York and basically what I do is over the past several years I've photographed about 10,000 people on the streets of New York City and around the world.

And I just learn a little bit about everyone I photograph. Um, and so I was just wondering if I could take your photo and ask you a few questions. Now before you had the ten thousand and went around the world when it it was maybe the hundredth person or two hundredth person, was it the same pitch minus that stuff? I was trying to give you actually the pitch that I I used to give in the early days. Now I pull out my cell phone, two number one New York Times best selling books. um, you know, twenty million followers on Facebook. And the whole reason of that, even though it kind of sounds like boastful and bragggy, is that especially if somebody hasn't heard of humans of New York, you know, I I want to convince them in as short amount of time as possible Um that it it's something real, one, that's important. Um and that it's something that you know is a lot of people know about and a lot of people follow. It's not a joke, it's not a prank, you're not gonna be embarrassed, you're not gonna

You know, my goal is in as short amount of time as possible to kind of, you know, make the person feel comfortable. And these days a big part of that is kind of explaining how big the block is, because then it's then it's like, oh, this person is not trying to hustle me. This person isn't trying to scam me. Um But you know, to be honest, you know, in the early days my success, you know, the amount of people who let me take their photo wasn't that much less. Um, except back then I wasn't a best selling author. I was just a a kid. Um

you know, who was you know trying to make an art project and and you know people wanted to help. And so You know, the I think a lot of people think that, you know, one of the reasons so many people are willing to talk to me is because humans of New York is so well known, uh, especially in New York now. Uh but

You know, I The My uh my rate of people who would talk to me was not all that different when I was just getting started. Are there any other nonverbal Oh used to that. Oh God. I mean there's tons of them.

And but I mean again, these aren't s things that I like I I these aren't things that, you know, I planned Or read about, you know, it's not that I had a lot of trial and error. Well, they were they they were burned into me by being rejected so much. And you know Some rejections on the streets of New York aren't always polite, you know what I mean? Uh it was hard, you know, in the early days, I mean I remember there were days I mean the hardest part about it was I mean especially When I got started and humans of New York didn't have any fans and it wasn't book it's you know, it wasn't made into any books, and you know, my family didn't believe in it, and my friends thought I was crazy, I had no photography experience. I'm in New York City, you know

stopping random people and asking them questions and I'm feeling insecure and you know I When you walk up to somebody And you ask'em if they can take your photo And they respond like you're some sort of freak. Or that you're weird.

You know, it's it's hard to not internalize that because you're so insecure at the moment about You know, whether or not what you're doing is weird. And If it's something that that you know, it it Am I am I weird?

You know, from for asking these people for their for their photographs. And you know, I go out some days And Ten people in a row would make me feel like I'm some sort of freak. Like do you know what city you're in? You can't be stopping random people. Like get out of my way. Like g what you what are you doing? Like no you can't take my photo. Like get out of here. You know what I mean?

And like During my formative and like impressionable You know early days when I'm trying to figure this out. You know

five reactions like that in a row. When nobody's paying attention to your work. And you've been Trying for months and you can't figure it out. I mean psychologically was very tough and you know there'd be days where that would happen, I just couldn't do it anymore. And I would just go home and and you know, lay in bed.

Uh You there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. Yeah, well I mean it's just like the

Yeah. That was That's the hardest part about doing it. Uh what did you What did you s I mean, what would you say to yourself during a period like that? I mean it sounds so

To me at least, I mean the picture that it's painting Having uh experienced some dark periods in my life that have been maybe catalyzed by various things. It sounds really soul crushing. I mean that sounds really that was all You know, like that was all um

Uh it was all like you know. All of the doubt and You know, all those and not having any money and You know, just nobody's paying attention and And I'm just doing this all day long for months.

And You know, like all the tough shit. Was uh And like loneliness too. Like I didn't know anybody in New York. Like

There was I knew like two people. And'cause And you know, like there was a Christmas break where Those two people went home.

And like for two weeks I didn't see anybody that I knew. Uh Jesus. Yeah. And you know, I I remember I Yeah. I spent Christmas Eve alone at a diner. Um

And then I just went out and photographed. You know, it was like 'Cause it was just like the only thing It was the only thing. That could like That would keep me from like thinking.

About how like unlikely it was and You know, weather. How Um

Like the only thing that That I think You know, kept me from thinking about the possibility of failing was doing it. was just photographing. And so like whenever I started to

to think is this gonna work, is it not gonna work. Uh I just go out and photograph. You know. I that was my my only way of like keeping those wolves away.

of you know is this ultimately going to be a success? Uh I am I wasting my time? My stupid like Uh the only

way to keep those away was to go out and work. And you know, and so that's what I would do just all day long and do it and do it and do it. And so like these negative things, like the rejection of people and you know, people saying no, and then I was talking about like all of the negative stuff Like the thing that was like counteracting that. All the time. was just loving it so much. You know? I just I just

I just loved it so much. Uh And So yeah, you know, it's like It was just kind of this this sub the same way I was obsessed with markets, you know, I was uh obs obsessed with taking photos. Uh and so that's kinda what carried me through it all.

I mean listening to this story. Yeah. When I look at humans in New York and think about how many thousands of people you've humanized and how much

Empathy you've created. traveling to other countries helping to paint a more complete picture of humanity instead of allowing sort of mass media distortion to create us versus them mentality. Or counteracting that at least to a very real degree and helping

Millions of people Who have been exposed to your work and the interviews to feel less alone. I mean, are you that's a huge fucking deal. And I I it just it pains me a story like this, but it's so helpful for you to share it because I wonder how many people

have ended up like in that diner alone and just quit. Right. Stop. And the well, I mean it's not even it's not even about stopping, you know? It's just like That's

I think humans of New York work it's not about like goals or or like mission or you know, I had a goal and I had a mission, but people just feel alone, period. You know what I mean? It's like that's that's why humans of New York has succeeded. And I'm not even talking about the people reading it. I mean the the number one question that people ask me is how do you get people to share with you? And

You know, I think You know, for for most people and they're not just if you follow humans of New York, you know Like I was yesterday I was talking with a woman who I mean I she had not heard of humans in New York. This is a perfect example. You know, I

I she was catching a train. She had thirty minutes. She had never heard of humans of New York. We start out with me kind of showing her the blog. And thirty minutes later, the place that we ended up at was She was in this purgatory.

Where her husband was depressed and an alcoholic. And Yeah.

That was ultimately So bad. He didn't beat her, he didn't cheat on her. But she wasn't getting fulfilled. And she was wondering if she was living her best life by staying with him for the kids.

And she came to this place where she admitted that she was kind of secretly hoping that he would do something bad. To make the decision easier on her. And like that sort of like honesty and that sort of truth and that sort of rawness I mean, I don't know if she'd even admitted that to herself before.

And you know, people ask me And that happens all the time, Tim. Like That's good humans of New York. I mean, some of it's just, you know, pictures of kids saying st cute stuff and some of it's cute couples, you know, talking about their relationship, but you know, good good humans of New York is is when we get to that moment.

You know when me and somebody are thinking through something or talking through something. that they might not have have thought through before. And You know, the way people say how do you get there with a complete stranger. You know, I think

that whenever I'm talking to somebody on the street They're Or two threads. Running through their head. at any given time.

And One of them is this kind of fear of being exposed. This feeling of of being vulnerable and discomfort. Who is this guy? Like why is he asking me through these questions? And on the other hand There is this appreciation of being heard.

That even though I don't know this guy This is the first person who has taken such a A focused and detailed interest in my problems. And and

And the the the feeling of having somebody focus so in intensely Not on the sports teams you like, or the music you like, or any of the other kind of trivial things that we we we got we get asked it on it on a daily basis, but you know, these these real things that you're struggling with, and maybe not even on the top of your mind, but like in the back of your mind that you're not even really bringing to the surface, you know. Being heard like that. Is is such a validating thing.

That That's Why people always share. And and I tell people at the beginning of every interview That these questions are going to be hard.

And anything you don't want to answer, you don't have to answer. And we talk about when they got molested as a child. We talk about them cheating on their husbands. We talk about their alcoholism, we we talk about how they don't love their child as much as they expected they would. You know?

We talk about all these things and almost never Do people say I don't want to talk about that? I don't want to talk about that. And I think The reason humans of New York works

Isn't because the people who are reading it feel alone. That's a big part of it. Is that people When they see somebody being vulnerable. In a way that they're afraid to be vulnerable themselves, they connect with that person. But it really works.

Because the people on the street that I meet Are so thankful to have somebody really listen to them. that in that bubble at an hour and a half where I'm sitting with a stranger on the street, this magic happens. where they're willing to kind of let me into a space in their mind or their soul or whatever it is. that they don't really let other people into.

And it's it's that place that I think connects with so many people. An incredible gift slash talent that you've developed That allows you to Make people comfortable enough.

to open up to that extent in thirty minutes. I mean, that is incredibly impressive to me. Uh even Given the fact that Perhaps one of the elements underpinning it is how how hard

they feel which is absolutely I'm sure the case. Uh I think about questions a lot and you have much more experience than I do. And that just blow me away that you're able to get there What are some of the other ingredients or Aspects of it that help you to questions perhaps that help you to get there. It's it's not the questions. I have about three or four entry questions that I use. What's your biggest struggle?

How has your life turned out differently than you expected it to? What do you feel most guilty about? But really the plann questions are just kind of springboards into a conversation. And you know, where how you get to that deep place with a person

Is Absolute presence. It's being one hundred percent there. You're not thinking in the framework of an interview. You're not looking at a list of questions. You're not thinking about your next question. You're not thinking about how this person fits into your idea of them and what you know about them.

you're one hundred percent there and you're one hundred percent listening to them. And your questions are one hundred percent. coming based on curiosity about what they are telling you. And nothing else. And you know

why it is th that I think humans of New York is special and I think humans of New York is is something that, you know, is is is precious and and maybe difficult to replicate. Is that you know I've spent Seven years In these conversations with ten thousand people.

And it's not necessarily that I have gotten So Good at asking questions. It's just that I've gotten so comfortable in the presence of a stranger.

And so comfortable in the presence of somebody that I've just met. that I can sit there with them without an ounce of self consciousness And just be And just be there with it and listen to them and be curious about them. And

There's this energy that happens there. that this doesn't feel like somebody that's interviewing you. It feels like somebody who knows you and cares about you. Is really interested in what's going on in your life. And

I I and it's it's very subtle and and hard to describe, but I think it's that energy and that presence and that being there. And it's something I had to earn. It's the same thing like public speaking. You know? I mean, when do you really get good at public speaking?

It's when you've done it so much that you can be yourself on the stage. Yeah. And there's Only one way to get there. And that's to be on stage scared as shit.

And I think the only way to get to that place where you can have that rapport with a stranger is is not by studying interview techniques. It's by sitting with thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of strangers. Until nothing feels strange about it anymore.

And you're able to be in that calm And what happens is your energy transfers to the other person. And they get to that place too. If we were to pick up the example that you gave just a few minutes ago about this woman talking about

her relationship with her husband and his depression and alcoholism and so on. How did you if if you remember How did you end up there? In in other words, do you recall how the conversation

Headed To that. I mean it can Uh well let me give you another example since I already uh Let me give you an example of somebody I talked to in the Philippines.

A few weeks ago. Same thing. I've traveled to thirty different countries now. I've done the exact same work. I've been to Pakistan, I've been to Iran, I've been to Iraq Uh and I work with interpreters and the process is exactly the same. I just walk up to people, random people. And get into these conversations with them.

There was a woman in a park in the Philippines And I started asking her I think one of the first questions I asked her was what is your biggest goal? In life. And she said she wanted to Have a good family life.

And so I thought that that was the story and I started asking about that. And I learned that she wanted to have a good family life because When she was young her family split. And she was forced to go to the courthouse with her mom and her dad at the age of nine. And the judge made

which parent she wanted to go with. And so I thought that was the story. And so I started asking questions about that. And then I learned that she ended up going with her mom.

And afterwards she her mom remarried. And she didn't like her new stepfather, so she ran away. And I thought that that was the story. So I started asking questions about that. And then I found out that the reason she ran away was because her stepfather was abusing her.

And that she had never told a person in her life, including her mom. Until that moment. that that had happened. And that's how we end up in those places is I just I

I'm just curious about what's going on in there. You know, I'm just curious about what happened. I I want to know the story and I just ask and I ask and I ask and if and if something's not quite making sense, I I I wanna know why. And so I ask more and I ask more and and It's it's like you can't I mean somebody can choose to eventually

To not tell the truth. By saying I'm uncomfortable with it. But it can't Really be concealed. If somebody is really, really, really, really curious.

You know what I mean? You y you can never, you know, get to the point like it's humans of New York interviews don't work. I always say it's not because somebody doesn't have an interesting story. Humans of New York interviews don't work when I reach a place when somebody's uncomfortable with the process, which is absolutely fine. There's that's completely understandable. I'm a random person.

I'm sharing these stories with twenty million people It's one hundred percent fine if you don't want to share. Like that's not that is that is nothing against you at all. But those are the interviews that don't make it on the blog. It's not that people aren't interesting. It's that humans of New York really kind of thrives on this kind of honesty.

And if somebody's willing to be honest I mean everybody's got an interesting story. And so it's like the I hit dead ends not because somebody's boring It's because somebody isn't f comfortable with disclosing.

Um and so that's that's kind of what defines You know, the the humans of New York interview or or what is usable of the humans of New York interview. How often when people disclose when they do go there? And disclose these very

Vulnerable. stories or things they've never told anyone else. How often do they ask that you not use it or that they are or express concern that it's gonna cause some type of problem for them? Well, that's that's one thing that I am very Principled about.

Um I give the person agency. Every step of the way. I tell them anything you don't want to answer first of all. They don't have to talk to me. Okay. They have that ch decision.

Once we start talking, I say any question you don't want to answer. You don't have to answer. If you tell me something during the course of this interview And you change your mind afterwards and don't want me to share it. That's fine.

At the end of the interview, if you would like me to photograph your hands or your feet Instead of your face. We can do that. In fact, if it's a very vulnerable story, I will normally insist on that to protect the person or protect somebody that they're talking about. If after I've done the interview and before it's posted at any time you change your mind and you don't want me to share it

I give them my email address. And after the photo is up, For any reason at any time. If you become uncomfortable from all the attention and would like me to take the story down, I immediately will. And so

People have control of it. Every step. of the way. Uh it's very important to me. that

hu nobody ever sees humans of New York as something that was done to them. I always want it to be seen as something that was done with them. And you know, have I failed at that sometimes out of the ten thousand people have I interviewed? You know, have there been people Who

were didn't expect me to share a certain part of their story or was surprised by it, or it was a negative experience for There have been a handful. You know, but I can only say that those are the Those Are the worst moments for me.

Uh when humans of New York was a negative experience for somebody'cause that that's who I really care about is is the people that That are on the blog. You know, because I mean They're the they're the people who kinda I I had that moment with, you know, I spent

an hour and a half with them and w and we and we got to that place and You know, I I I just If they are hurt by it. You know what I mean? Um, or if it's like

If especially if they were really kind of vulnerable, then that's that's when I feel the worst about myself. Uh, because I know how much pressure that spotlight can be and I know You know how how difficult it can be, you know, under you know, having twenty million people look at you and so

You know, if if if I've I ever feel that like I maybe accidentally misrepresented it or or You know, or or That that's that's when I feel the worst. How do you think about

money as it relates to Humans of New York. No, I was just gonna say in terms of what you do with advertising or partnerships or projects because you have such also such sensitive not not always, but Uh you have such potentially sensitive subject matter and it's so

Personalized for these folks. How do you how do you think about that? Right. Um, well, the you know, right n obviously so humans of New York, I think we sold A million and a half books. Um

The You know, the the television show, you know, Facebook You know, and Facebook There's more than one person interested in it and Facebook, you know.

They they they compensated me well for th the four years of work that I worked on the television series. So You know, I'm very comfortable right now. You know, I mean humans of New York uh has made me a Let's just say I'm not I'm not working about worrying about peanut butter and sandwiches. Um

With that being said Uh I will say that humans of New York has raised Mm. I've I've made

I've made a fraction. of the money with humans of New York that we have raised for charity, a small fraction of the money. that we've raised for charity. Um I have turned down Maybe more money than I've made.

Uh from people who want to use my brand to partner with their brand, you know, um b big brands have offered me a lot of money to do humans of and I'm just gonna make up some names, you know what I mean? Like humans of Mercedes Benz, humans of, you know, humans of China sponsored by Virgin Airlines. These are all fake things that I'm making up right now, but had resembled offers that have been made to me. Um where where I make the deli dividing line is that I'm willing to make money as Brandon Stanton.

uh a big part of my s income comes from speeches. You know, I give about ten of these a year. Um And uh that is a big part of my income. Uh

I have sell books is Brandon Stanton. Um I Don't sell the name humans of New York to anyone. I don't rent my brand to anyone.

Um And'cause I never want Any piece of content that I share To have a single motive. I I've never broken that seal.

And you know it's been s it's been so tempting. but I just know if I break it once I'm never going to get it back. Um so I For seven years. I've never been compensated for a piece of content that I've posted on my blog and

Uh and you know, that is that is the main delineation Um that I make between, you know, what can be monetized and what can't. And because of that Like I said, I'm not worrying about peanut butter and sandwiches anymore. Um, but you know, there is there is a little bit of an insecurity. Am I gonna look back in forty years if everything suddenly if everything suddenly goes away and Facebook and Instagram nobody are using anymore, am I gonna be like, Oh man

I'm I'm working the night shift now and I had twenty million I had I had twenty million followers twenty years ago. Maybe I should have uh tried a little harder to make some money, but uh that's how I view it now. Should have done those humans in New York lunchboxes while I had the chance. I'd I'd like to chat about that for for a second because it's it's it's been the well books at this point, certainly, but the At least as I understand it, the first book. So millions of copies, certainly more than a million Was it easy to find a publisher for that first book? No. Um I

I barely did. Um the Macmillan, uh God bless them. So I got the time, you know, I I think when I sold the book I had a few hundred thousand Facebook fans and it was growing so fast. You know, there was so much energy, you know, things are really taking off, and I just thought Oh my gosh, you know, everybody's gonna wanna publish this book.

Uh and and there's six big publishers, I'm sure you know all this, um, or seven or something like that, and yet you you the goal is to get all of them interested. Um and so and then you know, in the perfect world all of them are interested and then they bit against each other, right? Um And so I Only

Three of them would meet with me, or four of them maybe. Um and during those meetings I thought that I killed it. You know, I thought, Oh man, like oh then I I described it so well, I I you know presented so well, they're all gonna be very interested. And so we had an auction. And the the bids were due Bye.

twelve o'clock noon on one day. Uh and it's like At eleven o'clock I hadn't heard anything from my agent. Um And and I was just like what's going on? So I texted him and he goes, Oh Uh The first three dropped out. There's

They didn't make an offer. There's still one that we haven't heard from yet. Uh, and I'm just like, Oh my God You know, because that book was well, that book was my life raft because I didn't have any money at that time. I was hoping to get a little bit of a book deal so I could, you know pay my bills and I just remember I went to the Y M C A and I just ran like five miles because I thought it was gonna be the worst day of my life. Um and then when I got on the treadmill I found out that uh Macmillan Had made a A s a small but respectable offer. Um and that's how I I got a book deal by the skin of my teeth, which I think was uh

Which was lucrative for all parties involved. And uh What were some of the r the reasons for not meeting with you or not putting in an offer that they gave? Because There's two types of books that have a history of not selling well. Uh well there's a lot of types, but mine mine fit two categories. It was a photography book

Photography's books don't sell based on conventional wisdom. And it was a what they viewed as a regional book. where it is a photography book center centered on a single city Therefore nobody's going to want it. That was the that was That was the argument against publishing humans of New York. Oops. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is I I love these stories. Because they are the

rule and not the exception for so many things that turn into something. Well things that are not derivative. You know what I mean? Like in my mind. In my mind, like the most valuable idea is the one that nobody's ever seen before. Like that's when you've got the gold. But you've got a better chance of just choosing something else that's good and making something derivative on it. Uh because then when you go when you go into these places and you pitch You can say, Oh, this is the Uh this is fifty shades of gray, but you know, with furries. I don't know. Uh it's just like the it's like it's it's it's funny that like for me as an artist and as as a creator

The the last thing I ever want to do is be describing my work as it's this, but with a twist. You know what I mean? Like I I wanna be creating something new. Uh however, in the marketplace, the things that are have most likely chance of getting bought are things that people can can peg to other Past successes. And so when you walk in with something like what I thought was humans of New York's greatest value, which was there really wasn't anything else like it at the time. Um they

They viewed it as big detriment. Yeah. But what are the comparables? You're like, uh, that's the whole point. There are there aren't comparables. Right. Comparables. That fucking word. I mean, are you kidding me? Like I just like in in in the same the same thing, you know, when I was making the television series, like the same thing. It's like as an Artist. I want this to be like nothing else that's been cre that's like the only thing I care about. is making something that's really unlike anything else. Like that that is If if it's like something else, it's it's

I don't really want to obsess over it for three years trying to make it. You know, my goal is to is to make something new and something fresh. And when you're trying to get compensated for your work, you know, the thing that you care about the most as an artist is often the thing that's held against you the most. Uh Because people are risk averse and they want to see something comparable that has also done well. What's next for you? I mean do if if you do you have five year plans, three year plans

And so on at this point, or is it still twenty four hours by twenty four hours? What's next for you? I do. Well I'm having a baby, so that's gonna be new. Congratulations. That's a big deal. Thank you. Having a baby in July. So uh beyond that, which is going to be new, um the like for for me right now the biggest kind of artistic tension Um is Knowing Because of my experience on social media, um

The past seven years knowing Knowing how social media works, knowing the importance of output and content and and daily content and and um engagement and things like that. Um knowing how to build an audience.

On one hand. and wanting to push myself as an artist on the other hand. Um and you know, what I really want to do as an artist is I kinda wanna withdraw from the daily you know, output model. Uh I want to work on things that have longer time frames, that are more polished, and are maybe longer, but take longer to produce and and more resources. Uh but that

In order to do that, that requires me to kind of pull back from the blog. Um Which you know, the the golden rule of you know social media is keep engaging with your audience, keep connecting with your audience, you know, don't lose touch, don't lose touch, don't lose touch. Uh But the artist in me wants to go disappear for a while and, you know, go into a dark cave and and come out with something. Uh so I think, you know, that is that is the main push and pull in my mind right now. Um so I'm gonna be going to the Philippines next month.

uh to work on I'm gonna spend a month filming a documentary on somebody,'cause I love documentaries and I want to make a documentary. Um that is very interesting. So that it might not be what's best for business or best for growing audience or best you know, by social media metrics, but That is

That is what is exciting to me. And it it all comes back to that moment. It's like I it's so funny and I think You're probably the same way is that we have these mantras and these things that we've learned. Mm. that we stand on stage and we and we say and we and we think about, you know, don't wait for the perfect idea, you know, it's never gonna seem perfect. You just gotta go after it, choose, you know, what is nourishing in the moment, things like that. Uh and if you're like me, like

I I have to I have to preach to myself, you know. a lot, you know, and and tell myself the same thing that I'm telling other people because it's so easy to kinda, you know, fall back into what everybody else uh is struggling with as well, because you never truly escape it. And so, you know, one of the things that I do is You know, I go back to that moment when I lost my job and I was walking in Chicago and I asked myself You know, if nothing mattered.

But But how I was spending my time. You know. What what would I s what would I be doing? What would be most nourishing for me in any given moment? Uh if it was

If nothing else mattered except for how I spent my time. Uh and You know, I'm trying to remind myself of that. You know, the same thing I tell other people. And right now I w I wanna go to the Philippines and I wanna make a documentary and it might not be best for business and it might not e be best for humans of New York, but it's what Brandon wants to do. And so That is uh that is the North Star that I'm trying to follow.

Good for you, man. I'm excited for you to disappear for a little while. Yeah, exactly. And uh I have A Random suggestion. Okay. Which is if you have not read

Cryptonomicon, which is a a So Cryptonomicon part of the through line, one of the narratives. takes place in the Philippines. So that could be cool. That could be fun to pick up. But Brandon, thank you so much For that.

Taking the time today. This was really a wonderful experience for me and thank you for being vulnerable also and maybe telling Filling in. Some of the colour in the the the story of your life thus far. Uh and uh

It's it's been it's been really nice to get to know you a little better in this conversation. Well thank you so much. Um hope hope some of that's useful. Yeah I think it is. Is there anything else you would like to Ask if people Suggest to people any Any closing comments before we wrap up?

No, I think that's okay. No, I think that's it. All right, awesome. Well Once again. Really appreciate you making the time. Uh particularly how much you think about how you spend your time, uh to chat with me and with everybody. today and for everyone listening.

you can as always find links to everything that we have spoken about to all of as well in the show notes at Tim Dot Blog forward slash podcast. And until next time.

Do what is nourishing for you in the moment, or at least ponder the question. And thanks for listening. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share The coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up.

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