#477: Yuval Noah Harari on The Story of Sapiens, Forging the Skill of Awareness, and The Power of Disguised Books

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and gents, this is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. My guest today, many of you will know the name, and those who don't will know much more about him shortly, Professor Uval Noah Harari. is a historian and best selling author who is considered one of the most influential public intellectuals in the world. I know that's setting a high bar, but his popular books Might ring a bell. Sapiens, a brief history of humankind. Homodus. A brief history of tomorrow and twenty one lessons for the twenty first century have sold. Twenty seven and a half million copies roughly in sixty languages. I'll let that sink in for people. Twenty seven point five million copies.

That is a lot of square footage. Orbic feet, cubic meters. They've been recommended by Barack Obama, Chris Evans, Bill Gates, and many others. He's also behind Sapiens, A Graphic History, which we'll talk about, a brand new graphic novel series in collaboration with comic artist David Vander Muelen, I think. Co-writer, and Daniel Casanave, the illustrator. This beautifully illustrated series is a radical reworking of his book, Sapiens, subtitle. A brief history of human kind. The series will be published in four volumes.

Starting with volume one, The Birth of Humankind, which is available now. His website Y N Harari H A R A R I dot com. You can find him on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. on Twitter Harare underscore Uval. We'll link to all the rest of them at Tim.blog slash podcast. Mm. This episode is brought to you by P. That's P-I-Q-U-E. I have Had so much tea in my life. I've been to China. I've lived in China and Japan. I've done tea tours. I drink a lot of tea. And ten years.

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At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. And I also do a personal question. Now it is time. cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal mental cellar. S You've all

So nice to finally see you. It's good to be here. Thank you for inviting me. So we're gonna start in a Unusual place perhaps. With correcting my pronunciation on a word.

M-O-S-H-A-V. How do you pronounce that and what does it mean? Oh, that's actually a a kind of mistake on Wikipedia. It's a Mushav. No, it's not. Some it somehow got around that I live in on a moshav, which is some kind of socialist collective uh community. Less radical than the kibbutz, but one of the experiments of socialists in Israel like decades ago.

And it's just not true. I mean I live in a kind of middle class suburb Of Tel Aviv. Yeah. So this is an example for those listening of something that some people call the Wikipedia Echo effect. Because I actually I tried to correct it so many times and it's just uh I gave up. It's it's it's stronger than me. So at some point it got into Wikipedia, then it ended up in the Guardian, then other people cite the Guardian and it just will not go away. So it just keeps coming back. So let's go to something that I think is more of a first hand report.

And it's it's a paragraph from your wonderful Profile, I should say, answers to questions in Tribe of Mentors, which is my last book from a few years ago. And here's the paragraph I'd like to read and then we'll explore it. Since the first course in 2000, I began practicing Vapasna for two hours every day, and each year I take a long meditation retreat for a month or two. It's not an escape from reality, it's getting in touch with reality. At least for two hours a day, I actually observe reality as it is While for the other twenty two hours I get overwhelmed by emails and tweets and funny cat videos. Without the focus and clarity provided by this practice, I could not have written Sapiens and Homodus.

So The missing piece here is the first course. Would you be open to Describing how you ended up going to your first The passenger Experience.

Um yeah, I mean I was uh doing my PhD at Oxford at the time about medieval military history. And I was also looking for the meaning of life and reading lots of philosophy books and thinking a lot and and and n nothing really clicked. And the friend nagged me for about a year. to try a meditation retreat instead of reading all these books. And finally I I gave up and said, Okay, I'll I'll I'll try, I'll see how it is.

And it was really fascinating. because you know the the the very first evening the instructions that I was given by the meditation teacher was very very simple instructions. I mean I guess many people heard them. That you just focus your entire you you sit down, you close your eyes. And you just focus your entire attention on your nostrils, on your nose. And you just Feel try to feel whether your breath is coming in or whether your breath is going out.

Sounds like the simplest thing in the world. It's not even a breathing exercise, like you don't need to control the breath. Just to just Let it be what it is and just feel what it does. And I couldn't do it for more than ten seconds, like most people. That you know, for ten seconds I would be focusing on my nostrils, on my breath, and after ten seconds my mind would run somewhere.

Like to some memory, some stories, some something I forgot to do, something that happened years ago, and I would roll in that for m for minutes. Before realising the hey i missing my breath and and come back and this was an extremely humiliating and important experience. Because it made me realise for the first time in my life that I have almost no control over my mind. That you know, I was doing my PhD at Oxford, I thought it was I was a very intelligent Person?

Very smart and you know my mind is my my tool. And I have absolutely no control over it. I give it this very very simple task. And it can't do it. And also you realise how overwhelming the stories that the mind produced are

And over time this was not on the first night, but gradually over time it made me realise that You know, if you can't Focus on the simple reality of your breath coming in and out of n of your nostrils without being overwhelmed. By some story generated in your mind Then how can you hop to understand

I don't know, the the financial system of the world The geopolitical system, what's happening in Israel in the Middle East, Much, much bigger things. If you can't do that. I mean

No matter what I try to do These stories generated by them by my own mind get between me and reality. And most of my life I just spend on these stories. Um so it was ever since then it's was one of my main practices in in life is Хадую авойд біг овермд.

by the stories that your mind generates. Why did your friend nag you for a year? Was this a friend who was nagging everybody to go to a class and the teacher as I understand it, maybe it was in video, I w or I don't or maybe in person, S N Go Inc. I don't know the lifespan. Mm-hmm. Did they nag you because there's something about you? That told them you would benefit.

In particular? Or was it a general nagging? I think I mean I I think this guy was nagging everybody. In a good way. I'm still good friends with him. I I I think because I was really

Looking hard. To understand life to understand what's happening here. then he thought I would be a good candidate, and then he was absolutely right. Now Vipassana clicks for some people.

It doesn't click for others. Some people gravitate to transcendental meditation and repeating a mantra. Other people might find a different type of mindfulness practice, but it clicked for you. What did the before and after look like if we let's just say go back to that point in time, your first experience, and then we flash forward six months, what had changed six months later? Or or how did your perception of the world change? Some things changed dramatically, most things didn't.

I mean you have this kind of false enlightenment experience that you think you realize something very deep. And now everything is going to change. And over time you realize that the the deep patterns of yourself, of your own mind are much, much stronger. than one course of meditation or practice of of six months. And it's a it's a very long way.

And again, for some people it doesn't click at all. I mean when I came out of my first course I thought that oh that's easy. I mean e ev you can set anybody there and it will have the same effect. Later on I realise it's it's it doesn't work like that. Different things work for different people. Over time there are changes on on so many levels. I'm not sure which of these levels is most interesting to you or to our listeners.

So I can I can talk on on on several of them. You know, everything from simple simple kind of peace of mind. And Better Mental health? to a big change in my

Working Methods in my professional life, I don't think as as as as I wrote in this that passage you you read. I don't think I could have written Sapiens or Homodus or any of these other books. without the practice of meditation because You need a tremendous amount of focus.

To do something like that. And you need to be able to see through the Mass of details, and you know, you try to summarise the whole of human history in five hundred pages. The most important

button on the keyboard is delete. Um th that's the big thing. I mean what I mean There are so many important things. What is really important? That's the big question. And I don't think I could have done it without the kind of a sharp focus. That the meditation gives.

So many people have heard of sapiens. Certainly there's a point in Silicon Valley. When it first came out. And Nearly all of my friends seem to be reading the same book.

And I I think there's Uh sort of revisionists. Grand delusion among many readers that Sapiens Came out and then like the snap of the fingers twenty million copies, or however many millions of copies were sold worldwide in sixty languages. Now

that doesn't seem to to match the story exactly. What was the title? Of the original English version of Sapiens. And how many copies did it sell? Um yeah, it was a long story. I mean the original English version was titled From Animals into Gods. And it sold it was a self publication on Amazon and it sold something like two thousand copies. They now go for I don't know thousands of dollars or something because they're rare collector items. But yeah, it was uh

It was a long way. It was a long way. And you brought in Then it at at at that point, a number of professionals I I believe you maybe it was your your husband who found the literary agent. in terms of publication, negotiations, or anything to do with the business side of of life.

And I tried for some time, for maybe a year or two, to find a publisher by myself and it was a complete failure. And then my husband came in and he has much, much better business skills than than I do. And he like immediately fired the agent that we were working with at the time. And kind of let's go back to zero. And he was the one that found uh the best literary agent in Israel.

Ah, Deborah Harris and she opened a lot of doors for us. And uh we worked on it for I think we kind of I we did the translation again in several several because originally it was in Hebrew. And several rounds of editing, and uh eventually something like three years or more than three years after the Hebrew version. The real English version came out in twenty fourteen. Mm.

changes that were made aside from the title. I'd be curious to hear the story of Sapiens, the title itself, but what were some of the changes that were made in the editing process before the grand debut of the new version, if anything. I don't know if it was just fine tuning the length. I mean the the the all All the major themes and ideas were already there in the Hebrew Version.

Uh we just really re redo the the translation. And edit it. And I mean shortening here and there a f a few things, but but Th there was no major revision to the content. It was mainly uh issues of style.

And the entire kind of uh business approach of I mean who to work with and how. And you Correct me if I'm wrong,'cause you never know what you read on the internet. The degree of uh veracity, but That it was based on

Is that true? I I gave like Uh for five six years previously. I was giving a course at the Hibre University, which was basically introduction to the history of the world. And at some point, uh after working on it for for a couple of years. I began handing out my notes to the students.

Because I wanted them to focus on what I was saying and be part of the discussion. Instead of just scribbling down whatever I say. So I told them d forget it, I mean you don't need to write anything, I'll give you my notes. And and then the the notes started circulating not only among the students of the class, but also other students at the university.

And this kind of gave me the idea that well, maybe there is a larger audience for this And I began working on training these lecture notes. Into into a book. Uh again it w it was a long way. But a lot of the major ideas were there in the in the lecture notes.

And I wanted To hear more about this because I've seen In some books that

I've quite enjoyed like zero to one. Also came from lecture notes originally at Stanford. Yeah. It's a good method because The students take no bullshit.

Um you know, when you write when you write a book and it's only you and the screen and the computer, the computer suffers everything. Whatever you write, the computer is fine with it. It's too long, it's uh it's incomprehensible, it's boring, the computer doesn't care. But the students give you immediate feedback. I m if you stand in class and you s and you talk. And you see that the students have lost interest.

Then that's a sign. Or they just don't understand what you're saying. And the great thing about this course, it wasn't really an introduction to first year students. And and Israeli students. And you know, if if if I if if it was I don't know, in Oxford, then maybe it wouldn't work. But Israeli students they tell you exactly what they think about you and what you say.

So I got immediate feedback about everything. And maybe the most important feedback is that And I was trying to explain the really basic concepts. of human history. What is religion, what is money, what is capitalism.

And you need Іновеню ток від професор доктор. You can talk in a very, very complicated way. So nobody realizes, including yourself, that you don't really know what you're talking about. But with first year students you have to use very simple language.

And that's a big challenge. The simpler the language The bigger the challenge It really shows you and your listeners whether you know what you're talking about or not. You can't hide. Behind професіонал жургон and very complicated

Uh I don't know, language. And So so it was uh it forced me. Like I was trying to explain what is money.

And I had to go back again and again. to to the I to the core ideas and to the lecture notes and ask do I really understand what I'm talking about? If I really understand, I should be able to make it simpler. I should be able to give a straightforward example. It makes me think quite a bit. About uh Richard Feynman, the physicist who was very, very esteemed teacher and felt very similarly that

that professionals could hide behind labels, right? Pointing at the bird and knowing the name is very different from understanding the bird. And if you have to describe it in simple terms, it's a real Challenge of of competent and clarity. As a teacher. Suffering.

And I I again want you to fact check me, but it seems to me in doing homework and reading your work that you Very attuned to suffering.

Whether that is In the animal world, whether that is in the human experience, whether that is In your own experience. uh say with the endless cloudy days in Oxford at one point. Uh

Could you speak to How you developed that sensitivity if if I'm not imposing that on you. Uh because I mean you I'm looking behind you right now and people might not be watching this video, but you have some calligraphy behind you, which is Uh I believe it's Foshin, which is like Buddhist heart or Buddhist mind. Somebody gave me a present and they hang it there. Okay. suffering and the concept of suffering is is also central to a lot of Buddhist thought. Could you speak to

How you think about Suffering or why that is is something that you're so cognizant of? А ай реаліз бо і моє персонал. And in my work as a historian, that this is the big question. I mean the big question is not the meaning of life.

And the big question is not how you satisfy some God or how you achieve this or that goal. The the big question is how you liberate yourself and others from suffering. And this is also I think the main Team of human history.

Is Most historians are focused on the question of power. If you take most history books and also most economic books and and so forth, they're about power. They are not just, you know, a guide to how to get power, but about them the history of power. Conflicts about power between two kings, between two kingdoms, between two gods, between two religions, between two classes.

These are most history books are about that. And it's an important part, but it's it's it's not the bottom line. I think the bottom line okay, what does all this mean in terms of happiness and suffering? So okay, so the Roman Empire rose to power. Did it actually make humans happier? Did it make them more miserable? If it had no noticeable effect. On say average.

Happiness in the world, what does it matter? Whether they won or lost. And In my work, I try to always keep both of these perspectives at the same time. the perspective of of of power and of suffering

Especially because you know Humans are very, very good as a species. Not all humans, but as a species, we are very good in acquiring more power. But we are not good at all. in translating power into happiness. Інформіде бік парадокс о історі.

Is that It's obvious we are thousands of times more powerful. than people in the Stone Age. But it's not clear. Whether we are at all happier than they were.

Maybe we are happier a bit. But not thousands of times more happier. So something is wrong here, you know, it's like a car. Which you know, y y you press the fuel pedal with all your strength. But your gear is in neutral.

I mean we have so much power and no we it doesn't move anywhere. And it's also often the case in your personal life. that you can achieve so much and then you know you look inside and you ask, am I actually happier than I was ten years ago or twenty years ago? And maybe not. And One of the things I also realised

personally and you know, collectively as a historian, is that we just don't understand suffering very well. One of the main problems Is that People think That

With regard to suffering It's Obvious what suffering is The big problem is how to make it how how to make it disappear. I know that I don't know, pain is suffering, or I don't have enough money, that's the cause of my suffering. So now let's focus on on getting more money or getting a medicine.

And the mistake is that You don't really understand. The deep causes and mechanisms of suffering. You see just part of it. Yeah, obviously pain is suffering, that's true. But there is much more to it. And if we spend a little more time

On understanding the deep mechanisms of Misery and dissatisfaction in life Then we can act far more effectively. In in trying to alleviate it. Can you speak to the

The test of suffering. Mm to determine what entities are real and what are not, what are illusion and what are not. I shouldn't say illusion, maybe abstractions. Uh-huh. The main way that humans gain power

is through collective cooperation. As individuals we are not particularly powerful animals. In a match between a human and chimpanzee, the chimpanzee will easily win. The big advantage of humans we can cooperate basically in unlimited numbers. Thousands, millions, today even billions cooperate together, chimpanzees can't cooperate more than say fifty or a hundred. That that's about the limit. And then you know what enables us to cooperate in very large numbers, these uh this is our ability to invent and believe in fictional stories and fictional entities.

All the big heroes, almost all of them, are fictional entities that exist only in our imagination. Only in the stories that we create. Nations. Gods. Мані корпорайшнс стейт.

The only place they exist. is in the stories that we invent and tell. As they are they are not physical or biological realities. Again, the United States or Israel, the only place it exists is in the story that millions of people believe. And it's the same with money. It has you know, money has absolutely no objective value.

Uh but as long as millions of people believe in the story about the dollar or the story about the euro, it works. No. When you say that. Sometimes people go to the other extreme and think That what you're saying is that nothing is real.

That the entire world is just one big illusion. But that's not the case. I mean there is still reality. I'm still Chimpanzees and elephants and humans.

And there is a very, very Simple test. To know whether the hero of the story that you are telling Is a real entity. Or a fictional entity.

invented by humans and existing only in the in their imagination And that is the test of suffering. But a human being can suffer, a cow can suffer, an elephant can suffer. But a nation can't. If a nation loses a war

It doesn't suffer, it has no mind. It can't feel pain or sadness or fear. Uh the soldiers who are fighting for the nation, the citizens in that nation now being conquered by some other nation, they can suffer a lot of things. But the nations can't suffer. Should be obvious. And it's the same with corporations. Even if the corporation loses a billion dollar, it doesn't suffer. It go if it goes bankrupt, it doesn't suffer.

Because it again it has no mind. Can't feel pain, can't feel anything. So it's you know, it's a very, very simple test that we should remind ourselves from time to time Вот із риндавор And

What are these fictional stories? Now I'm not against the stories, we need them. They are the basis for co operation. But we should always remember we created them as tools. To serve us. We shouldn't be enslaved by them.

If a story enables people to cooperate well And Thereby improve their lives, that's wonderful. But once you forget it's just a story. And you begin entire wars just in order to protect, to defend the honor of the nation?

Or to increase the profits of the corporation, something went wrong. I Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. The colorful days of fall are now upon us. Are your small business's needs evolving, changing with the times? Certainly true for me and my team. And despite the current uncertainty in the world, having the right people on your team can wrap you in feelings of security and peace of mind like a warm blanket. It's never been more important to find and hire the right people.

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What is the story? If there is one. Uh or stories that you have around money yourself. I was reading the New Yorker profile not from not too long ago, and you probably know the paragraph that I might be thinking about where you and your husband might relate to money differently. What are the stories that That you have

For yourself in your life. Money. But in essence money is just trust. It's the most Successful and universal system of mutual trust.

That humans ever came up with. And therefore I don't think it's bad. You know, it's very common for historians and philosophers and people like that, Oh money, it's the source of all evil in the world. I don't think so. Yeah. Sometimes it causes a lot of bad things, but in itself it's a wonderful thing.

It's just a system of mutual trust. That you know Fifty thousand years ago to trust somebody You need to know them personally. You need to know their o

personality, what they did in the past, they like you, they don't like you, and that makes it very, very hard to cooperate in large numbers because you can't know a lot of people personally. And it also makes it particularly hard to cooperate with strangers. And foreigners that you don't know. Now you look at today

I can go to a supermarket And a complete stranger that I never met in my life. would give me food that I can actually eat. Which was grown by couple of other people on the other side of the world. And it was transported from that

field or plantation to the supermarket by a bunch of other people. None of us knows. So how do we cooperate so effectively? How do we trust each other? Um Money makes it possible.

And money is really it's it's just trust. You know, in the beginning money was uh and um because people didn't have a lot of trust The money had to be made f from something with an objective value. Which doesn't depend just on on human belief. So the first money that we know about was simply grain.

You paid for things with grain, and grain, you know, it you can eat them if if nothing works. But gradually people The the trust increased. And today most money in the world it's just digital data. being passed between computers.

Most money is not even banknotes and coins. It's I don't know, like five percent or something of the of the money is is is physical money. Most of it is just digital. when during this crisis in recent year uh governments and banks in the US in Europe elsewhere created trillions of dollars They didn't even bother to print the money.

You just have some official in some bank goes into the computer, adds a zero somewhere and pff You have a trillion new dollars emerging out of nothing. And it works. I mean it works because people have so much trust. In the banks, in the governments. Not only of their own country, that's the amazing thing.

I mean you'd have thought well you can only use the money of your government No. You think about even I don't know, Islamic fundamentalist ISIS. They hated America, they hated American politics, American culture, American religion, but they had nothing against American dollars. When they conquered, I don't know, Mosul and entered the banks, they didn't burn the dollars that was there. They took them, they used them. So that's amazing that you can have such a level of trust.

Even between complete enemies. And in my personal life Um therefore I don't have a negative attitude. So it's money? Um

I think for me I I also I I'm not chasing it a lot. But for me the best thing about money is not to think about it. Uh I'm not much wealthier than I was ten years ago. I'm gen you know, just a a young professor back then. Not that I was ever poor, but I I'm now much more wealthier. And

The m the the thing I m I like most about my wealth today is that I simply don't have to think about money. I go to the supermarket and I I I I don't know, in in Israel Pineapples are very expensive. So I if I want a pineapple, I just I I don't even look at how much it costs. I j I just oh I want a pineapple, okay, let's take it. You've mentioned the

Alleviating of suffering. And getting a better understanding first of defining the problem as opposed to just Rushing to Solutions. And getting a better understanding of suffering.

Your life. In contrast to say not thinking about money. has been complicated or made harder to navigate with the tremendous success. Of Sapiens and becoming more publicly visible.

In other words, was it as as just uh an example easier to find sort of tranquility and connection with bodily sensations as a way. To integrate yourself.

Back at Oxford compared to today. No. But I have twenty years of experience now in doing that. So I don't know, maybe if I remained an anonymous professor of medieval history It w I I would have much deeper experiences of meditation today, maybe not. Uh it's impossible to know.

I still have time. No, um I'm not so busy. I have now a large team like Again, I thanks to my husband to kind of set it up. We now have a team of fifteen people.

Working for us? So I get something like I don't know. Fifteen, twenty emails a day, that's it. And like this conversation, I didn't have to do anything. I just had to come like two minutes before it started and just put like plug myself in and that's it. Somebody organized everything.

So um I'm not extremely busy. I I still have two hours every day to meditate. I still go every year for a long retreat of say thirty days or forty or sixty days, something like that. Um Yeah, I mean the uh

I I think a lot A lot of things to think. Um but I thought a lot even before that. So I mean the the the the content Of my thoughts changed.

But I don't think the intensity changed. One of the things I realised from now being this famous public intellectual and meeting all these famous people and leaders is that everybody l is is is basically the same. When you are Prime Minister or President of a Superpower You can't be!

more uh worried Then when you run a small business. It's impossible. It's the you know it's the same brain, it's the same mind. So if you have a small shop. And you're the only worker, maybe.

And it's now corona time. And and and y y y y you have to shut it down and you have to pay Uh your remote gauge and and and what even you worry about it all day. It's basically the same. With a prime minister or president

But worries about the economic crisis over war. It's Yeah, of course objectively they have to be much more worried, but they can't. They have the same brain that you have. So it really depends.

On you know, m maybe they are even far less for it than you are. If you're an extremely neurotic person, I don't know, if Woody Allen had a small shop. And I think he would be much more worried about his shop. Then certain presidents and prime ministers today in the world are worried about their countries. So I I read uh I read a quote from you

This was in the New York Times. If if I was a superpower, my superpower would be detachment. Mm-hmm. Could you expand on that, please?

Yeah, I think I think it is true. That I I can keep a kind of distance. From situations from development in in in my personal life or in or in in in in world history.

And even though I have my opinions and on my preferences Um I have A certain ability to to keep a distance and say Look at things from from different angles. And

Um Also It it makes me very sceptical about my own positions. But maybe I maybe I just don't know. Maybe I I'm wrong about it. Um it it could have been

You know, debilitating that I c I can't Like Uh, how can you write the history of the world if you're not sure about what you say? But actually I find it I I just don't Take myself a hundred percent seriously.

So okay, so maybe I'll write something in and it's nonsense, so okay. Uh That that's I mean a w w when I wrote sapiens initially I had no idea it would be a big success. So I was kind of uh had this defense that uh I thought um alm no nobody's going to read it. Like maybe my students at university would read it.

Maybe a couple of other people. But that's it. So we you know, I can write what I want, basically. And later on when when I became very successful, it was the other way around, then that you know, it it doesn't matter anymore. That if I'm If if if I write something and it's not Um

And I'm not a hundred percent sure about it. Then Uh I can take the hit. then okay, so people will find out that I wrote n something wrong and and that's fine, that's part of the business. I mean if if you really want to

uh right these kinds of big books You HEF to аксепту сам екстент. That you will make mistakes. And that um you will not get everything right. If you want if if you're a perfectionist

then it's better to write the history of kind of one battle in the Middle Ages. Then you're on safer ground. This is gonna seem like a strange question perhaps. And if it goes nowhere, that's totally fine. But I'm curious What do your close friends come to you for when it comes to advice? Like what type of advice do your friends come to you for?

Is there any Any pattern to it? Or any particular stand up. It depends on the friends, I think. I have a core of very good friends that go with me for years. I mean from long before. I I I think that since I became kind of famous

I made maybe just one or two new good friends. Almost all my good friends are with me from from years back. And I have different relationships with each of them. It's like Mm.

Each one of them holds a different part of my inner world. Or of my life and I I hold different parts of of the world. So You know th they they don't come for me to meet for advice about history, that's for sure. Maybe they'll ask me, Well what do you think will happen in the US elections? And I say, I don't know. Uh but uh I mean some if if something really big happens, I don't know, when they uh

During the h the the height of of the of the terrorist wave in the world. So th th they would come and I at least some of them and I would say look look From a big historial perspective, this is not so important. You know, ev every person that dies in a terrorist attack is the entire world destroyed. But looking at the big picture from the history of the world, this is a very small affair.

I mean I can explain to you why. Uh terrorism gets so much attention. It's basically theater. These people are eksperts in фітер. Not in war.

And they are very good at it. So they get so much attention. But you don't need to worry that the terrorists will take over the world. It it's not going to happen. Uh, most of the things, you know, it's like somebody's breaking up with their boyfriend, girlfriend, somebody's just having a lousy day at work and The the the the usual things.

The usual stuff. What would they say your superpower is if if you said it's detachment. Which we could dig further into, but is are there any other observations that they would have? If we if if we gave all of your closest friends two drinks and we said, Okay You've all

Superpower, what is it? What might they say? First they will say different things because they know different angles of me. Right. I think some of them will say I suppose that I'm a good listener. Partly because I talk so much during my my my work that like when I meet with friends I I like to be quiet and just l let

Somebody else do the talking for a while, which is a very good thing because very, very often when people come to you for help, they just want you to listen. They don't want you to solve their problems. They don't you know, it it often happens that comes somebody comes, you know, with a problem. And you don't have patience for them. So you think what is the fastest way to get rid of them, to end this phone call, I'll find the solution to their problem then they'll go away. And this really is the last thing they want.

They really just want to complain and and for somebody to to listen to them. And I'm quite good at it. Right, you s you spend all your words during the day and then you can you you have the space to listen. Uh yes. How do you relate to

Happiness. Uh because ha happiness is is far more difficult to nail down. I mean when you're miserable you know it. When you're happ when you think you're happy, you're quite often just deluding yourself. It's not so easy. to really understand what's happening there.

You know, it it really goes down to the level of the body. This is something that I I know for meditation. When you have a pain somewhere in your body It acts like a magnet. They just draws the attention there. There is no way you can miss it.

And you try to to observe other things and you can't. It's just you know it it gets drawn back. To the Painful sensation in the knee, in the stomach, wherever it is. But when you have pleasant sensations in your body They have usually the opposite effect.

They throw you out. Yeah. You you kind of float. Couple of feet above the ground. I mean sometimes people come in meditation and they say I never have any pleasant sensations in the body.

I just have pain. And that's it's never the case. What's true is that when you have pleasant sensations you don't notice them. Because the usual effect Of feeling something very pleasant, it throws you out.

You start kind of imagining, Hey, what if I win the lottery and I'll have a million dollars, I'll do that, I'll do that and you You lose connection with what at the time that you're having these very pleasant thoughts. You're having very pleasant sensations in the body, but you don't notice it. And um it's It's uh I find it it it's it's harder to work.

And to see what's actually happening there. But it's I would it's even more important. than kind of noticing and working with with with the painful sensations. I mean most in the end, most of our I would say the The really difficult problems

They begin with the pleasant sensations. That um You know, we become so attached to them. The the moment they are gone, ma most of the time people don't have very painful experiences.

Most of the time if you're dissatisfied, it's because you are missing or craving for some very pleasant experience which is just not there. And you're not willing to settle. For the kind of ordinary boring thing that you do have. I wanna rewind to

your description of your current life compared to your Just say pre fame life. Which seems to be similar in many ways. You've been able to preserve the space. to do what you do best. You have this this husband who's very good at saying no. You have personal assistants who are very good at saying no.

And I think they will listen with great envy because very often Whether they are artists, whether they are business people, what made them successful is often the first thing to get crowded by

the new attention and success that they receive. Aside from Luck, because perhaps there was some luck and chance involved in meeting the person who then became your husband. Were there any decisions or are there any Decisions or frameworks or anything at all that has helped you to preserve

The space that you have. I think a very important decision was to Keep the meditation first. That like when I plan my day or I plan my year It's the first thing I put in the calendar.

is the meditation which reads, and everything else has to find space around that. And that was a very it it was a conscious decision. And a very important decision that that really worked. And in a in a bit similar way also to keep time. For my old friends to keep time for my family.

And um Understanding that this is kind of a marathon race and not a sprint But okay it's something very important happens, the new book is coming out, there is a ver there is a lot of important things. So okay, so I I can I can change my routines for a while. But over the long run

You have to kip these kind of basic blocks. Intact. Th this was a very conscious decision. In my case, uh it worked. Also to kind of remember mm

What's really important for you in life. F for me I think maybe No, on on the personal level. I really want to understand Life to understand the world. What's happening?

I noticed Quite early? That most of kind of the big events that I'm participating in, like conferences and and so forth And the important people I meet. They don't really contribute much to that.

They don't seem to understand the life or or have to some some particular insight. In the big conferences, they never talk about these things. You know, they talk about the global economy, they talk about climate change, they talk about uh they are important things. But in on on the deeper level Of what's actually happening here it's um I won't get any answers from from there.

You know, it's I don't think it's a coincidence that in you look at the whole span of human history And almost Нане впортнент політика лідер з юменкайд. made a significant philosophical contribution. to human thought. You have a few exceptions, I don't know, Marcus Aurelius or something like that. But generally speaking,

You would have thought that uh from their vantage point they see something that ordinary mort. They uh maybe they they reach the top because they have some very keen insight into human nature and If they have some key insight, they keep it very, very secret.

Mm-hmm. Who are some of the people You respect Could be past or present.

For Really seeing or seeking what is going on. On the deeper levels. Mm.

But I I can tell you I mean some of the names of Thinkers and writers that influenced me. Great. Let's start there. Yeah, so I mean Um Charles Taylor, the Canadian philosopher, really influenced me

A lot. uh hi his book The Sources of the Self is I think one of the most important Books I read in life, one of the most difficult books also. I mean if people take this as a kind of reading recommendation, they should be warned it's it's really tough going. It's a very big book, very dense.

But if if you make it it's it's really worth it. Oh o of course I was uh very influenced. By my meditation teacher Sengka. Again, not necessarily by any books you he wrote, or j just by by by by the the the guidance. I mean I remember sitting in my first V Passana course and and and having this feeling this guy really

Gets it. He really understands What's what's happening. uh the di this was something k quite Surprising for me.

To see that. Some of my good friends have some insight. Into W what's happening here? I yeah, I can I can give a list of of books that influenced me.

I'm not sure if if this is kind of the answers the question. But we we are free free to meander. This is we don't have tight constraints. One of the problems I realized it's that It's extremely difficult to share. the really deep insights you have about life.

That Very often they are in a nonverbal level. And In any case, uh uh my impression is that Most of the inner world of most humans is never shared.

They never Talk about it because they don't even have the words. And don't have the audience. I mean most of what happens to you deep down During the day?

Yep. Spouse probably doesn't know, your parents don't know, your children don't know, your friends don't know, even you don't know. If you don't really make the effort. One of them. Qualities of of great art

Not just writing, but different kinds of art that it really Gives words. That you know, y you feel something. For many f maybe for years. And you have no idea how to communicate it.

And then you read a poem or you see a TV show. And yes, this is exactly what I'm feeling and I never knew how to communicate it. So that's why it's also very difficult to kind of know Um You meet somebody and you don't really know

What's going on inside them? And to what extent they understand or don't understand. Their life or life in general. So it it's very, very hard to say. Well you also underscore something that I've thought about a lot recently, which is It's quite unfair to expect other people to understand you fully when you don't understand yourself fully on your own.

It's quite an uh quite an unfair expectation of people sometimes. This is a basic expectations because Because we have trouble understanding ourselves. We have this hope. That somebody will lend us a hand.

And we have the experience, at least most of us If we came from loving families Yeah. When you were kids, there were people there, like our parents, who did exactly that for us. Even on the most banal level that you know a child is crying

And uh the mother would say, Well y y you're just tired, just go to sleep. And you you figure out well you should know that you're tired, but no. I mean it's it's amazing that sometimes people are tired or hungry or whatever and they and they don't know it. And then somebody who really understands them comes and says, Well, just go to sleep. And In in my writing I I engage a lot with the issue of the future of AI and surveillance.

And I think One of the Key fantasies. Вид АІ Сорвеленс. is that um the algorithms will do that for us.

That's very important. Yeah. Brave New World. Yeah, Brave the World I I it it really had a really, really deep impact on me. Um Because I I think he really got it. And

That he Th the interesting thing about Brave New World it's kind of, you know It's on the surface, it's a dystopia. But when you kind of Ask yourself why? What's wrong with Brave New World? It's very difficult to say it.

To find out. I mean everybody seems to be satisfied. Everybody seems to be happy. There is a system in place. that um understands you very, very deeply. And make sure that you'll never be in great pain or never never suffer any any great misery.

And it's it's a very in in this sense, you know, nineteen eighty four Like an o i it it's it's broader book, nineteen eighty four. It's a very simple book in this sense. That nineteen eighty four describes a terrible, terrible dystopia. The only question is how do we avoid getting there?

But Bravely Well, you read it and at least For me I kind of think okay to What What's really w wrong with it? And it's not easy to answer this question.

Yeah, the the sort of uncanny feeling that something is not quite right that you can't put words to. It's very similar to the feeling of something that is quite right that you can't put words to that then gets reflected in good art. It can go both ways. I'm

A number of the things that I read in preparation for this from various profiles. There's one that said you prefer television to novels. There was another that gave the example, might have been the same profile, of you swimming as part of your routine in the summer and listening to nonfiction books via via headsets, but they're I guess they're resonant. They deal with the vibration of the Yeah, uh the job. And I I tried to l to listen through like usual earplugs And water would sip in somehow all the time. And w would ruin it.

And then finally I came across this gadget that you can just put it on your forehead. And some in a some mysterious way it works better And you actually hear better. Then when you put it in your ears. Uh so yeah, I would swim back and forth, back and forth, listening to

I don't know. I I I listened say to Shoshana Zubov's surveillance capitalism. With the with the dolphin headset for the resonance. That's amazing. So I'll the it's a forehead. headset perhaps. Do you recall what type it is by any chance? I know this is getting into the minutiae. If if not, we can figure that out. I can go and look for it if it's very important.

I it's just in it's just in the in the next room, so like it it will take me a second if you want. Oh yeah, let's yeah, sure. Let's let's grab it. Why not? Okay, I don't want to say this is the most important thing in the world, but I'm curious. It'll take a minute. Mm-hmm. So uh it's a This is how it looks, by the way. Oh wow.

Alright, so it's connected to the sort of dorsal snorkel that goes across the forehead so you don't have to rotate. All the time from the water. It's by Phineas Dual. Finnish F I N I S All right, we'll we'll find it and put it in the show notes. Thank you for grabbing that.

It seems like you are not consuming much written fiction. But Brave New World is fiction. Yeah, yeah. Fast becoming reality. And maybe also, like you said, philosophy disguised as

Science fiction. Are there other fiction books that you have found to have an impact on you or your thinking? Or do you do you consume much in terms of Quite similar yeah, it's quite similar to Brave New World, I think Hitch Hyper's Guy to the Galaxy. I also I also list it as as a philosophy book.

Um And it had an impact on not just on on my thinking, but on my on on on on how I I write or or work. That I'm not saying it is a kind of uh I don't know, metaphor or something.

That these are ph they are philosophy books. They just are written In a different way. Uh the and this is one of the ideas that gave me the inspiration to kind of turn sapiens into a graphic novel, which we might discuss later on if if we have the time. That Um you can play with the form.

I think that Aldo Suxley when he came to write Brave New World Ah, he had these uh philosophical issues he wanted to discuss. And maybe I'm inventing money, maybe it wasn't like this at all. But My impression is that he thought well it will actually be easier.

And more interesting and engaging. Instead of Uh you know, having these formal logical arguments. And instead of having these thought experiments, which philosophers love so much Why not have an entire book?

Which is one long thought experiment. And uh see where it takes me. And uh I think that the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxies is basically the uh something similar That it explores a lot of deep philosophical issues. But in a much more fun way.

than your typical philosophy book. I could not agree more. I just literally a few weeks ago listened to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy narrated by Stephen Fry, who's an incredible narrator, for the first time. And You're right that it has So many

What otherwise could be very sterile thought experiments and concepts embedded into this entertaining narrative. And I remember one line they're talking about the I I wanna say he's the president of the galaxy or something along this. That's right. People Brock's and they they they talk about how successful he was and how People have the mistaken notion that the job of the president is to wield power, but that's not the job of the president's to distract from those who are wielding power. And just these short Nuggets.

contains so much to chew on and uh it's it's really an effective way of providing people with footholds in a way. Yeah. And it's the same with TV. Like I think that Black Mirror, at least some of the episodes in Black Mirror. Of some of the best discussions that I I've seen Of

Certain dangerous tendencies in in current technology. I mean some episodes of of just fun. Uh I don't know, like uh San Jenni Perro I think it's a it's an extremely good episode, but it describes a reality which is so far away from us. That it's it's not really relevant. To any of the discussions here. But you look at uh if if you start nose dive

About and you know, uh may maybe the Chinese got the idea. for their social quad system from nose dive But it's such a powerful and important episode of you look at um Uh how was it called?

The one with the cartoon figure. That bijcame president that almost біke mep. Uh the the the blue bear or something. And you know, this was before Trump, this was before this whole wave, and they this was so prophetic. Was really amaz I mean, I I when I watched it for the first time in twenty thirteen, I thought what were they talking about? And then I watched it later, like five years later, and that these guys are just geniuses.

I mean how did they see it coming? Yeah, it's very it's it's a real sweet spot of near term. or not too distant future. kind of technological extrapolation. I love Black Mirror. I I and I always encourage people to watch at least three episodes because I'd say maybe one out of three or one out of four just completely miss Uh for me, they don't kinda sort of strike a chord. So you have to

Your sample size has to be a few episodes and you'll usually strike on something. Uh do you have any other we are going to talk about Sapien to graphic history because I've a lot of questions about it. Before we get there I've two Actually I'll I'll stick with one question before we get there, and that is any other Television series.

Could be documentaries also or movies that you think are Intelligent Examples of philosophy Or thought experiments in disguise. I I again going back to the usual suspects of science fiction

I thought that's her. was a very intelligent and you know low key Exploration. of some of the potential of of AI. I don't like these movies when the robots rebel and kill everybody. I mean this is such

It's Implants the wrong Fears. And it it encourages the wrong discussions. I don't think that in the next twenty or thirty years The robots are going to rebel and kill everybody.

But there are other dangers. Uh much more so I mean. Oh less subtle. Whether it's the job market, whether it's surveillance and at it w what it will do to politics, or whether it's you know Changes in in in in in human relationships.

And I thought that her was a very in in this way a very intelligent A movie that avoided the usual traps. And it it goes back exactly to what we were discussing earlier that We have a deep yearning that somebody out there in the world would really understand us. Like we go about life and we hope that our parents will understand us, uh our teachers, our lovers, our kids. Somebody please understand me.

And For many people it never happens. And to some extent somebody understands them, but there are many hidden corners within themselves. The they are unable to communicate. And maybe they don't understand them fully, and there is nobody out there that reaches out and and kind of engages those corners in them.

And There is now a technology on the rise Which could fulfill that dream. And this is extremely attractive and extremely frightening at the same time.

And Harry spot on. I mean what happens When there is an algorithm that constantly observes you, not just what you do, but also what's happening inside your body. And really understands your personality, your moods, your likes, your dislikes. You know, you come back home from work And you're grumpy and your husband doesn't notice it.

But the computer does notice it. I mean and what kind of world is it? What kind of relationships Uh will there be? When

Computers and objects. understands you better than the people in your life. And that's a fascinating and frightening. А questi на I think a very realistic question. We are very v unlike the robots rebelling and killing everybody.

The moment that Your smart refrigerator knows you better than your husband is not very far in the future. And you know, this is we we should be talking more about that, and I would like to see. More movies, more T V shows, more science fiction n novels that explore

Uh these kinds of questions. Yeah. If if you haven't read Any of Ted Chang's work, C H I A N G he has a he has a A compilation of short stories called Exhalation. Okay. He has another collection of short stories. I think you would absolutely love them. Uh one of his short stories was turned into

I believe it was a rival about The protagonist who's this female linguist who decodes the the graphic language of these aliens who arrive on Earth and it's about Temporal perception. It's these are Really, really.

Really incredible story. So Ted Shang, C H I A N G and Excel. I think I think you'd enjoy it. Let's talk about Sapiens of graphic history. Well, before we get to that, I just want to say that the word understand and the concept of understanding is also fraught with difficulties and I think that that is part of what AI will also demonstrate that

Knowing quite a few people who work on AI, what what does it mean for Let's just say a computer or a refrigerator to pass the Turing test so effectively that you feel understood. Mm-hmm. But it's not I I don't believe they'll be conscious. I don't believe that we are near the point when they will have consciousness, and if by understand you mean the kind of inner feeling that we have when we understand that that's not the case.

I think we are not near there. But understands in the sense that able to Predict our behavior and response unconsciously. In a way. Which will be more appropriate than the people around us.

Th that's what I mean by it, yes, it's it's a weaker definitely. I'm not thinking about the conscious experience of understanding. It's about just predicting Could be manipulating but Most importantly just A kind of

Реактин то ас in a way that we will find appropriate more appropriate than the way that you know we will get so used to having these computers and робоts That are very attuned to how we feel. That we might become even more irritated with the humans.

Who don't feel. Who don't react uh who don't understand how we feel and don't react in in in the right way. And then part of the problem is it's So many people, like everybody are are often self centered. So I don't Get what my husband is feeling because I'm too focused on my on my own feelings.

Oнов the ріzen That computers could be better than humans. In this is that they don't have feelings. The refrigerator doesn't have any expectations in life from you. He had no dreams, no fantasy nothing.

So uh the c refrigerator can be a hundred percent focused on what you feel. It has no feelings of its own, so it can't be insulted, can't be angry, nothing. Yeah. Sounds like you have an episode of Black Mirror to write. And and to to that

point on some level. We were talking about Philosophy disguised as fiction. Or thought exercises embedded into, say, Black Mirror in a way that uh are not just fascinating, but also

Sapiens of graphic history. I want to talk about this because I actually have a long history with graphic novels and comic books. I wanted to be a penciler, a comic book penciler for about twelve years and used used to be an illustrator a long time ago. And then I lived in Japan in high school, went to a Japanese school. And in Japan, unlike in the US. There is a long rich history of comic books and graphic novels for adults and also comic books and graphic novels for teaching difficult concepts, telling history, and these are extended, expansive. collections of graphic novels and I've seen how effective it is.

Because I I read some of these when I was in Japan on the history of Judo and other things and it I would not have Consumed. Five hundred pages of pure text. Certainly not in Japanese. And

I think it's an incredibly powerful format. How and why did you decide? Two Take sapiens and Create.

This Vehicle for perhaps. Teaching in a different way. Actually the initiative didn't come from me, it came from uh David and Danielle.

The two artists who collaborated with me on this project. They came up with the idea, they wrote some initial suggestions and I really liked it. It connected to something that I did want to do for a long time. Which is to reach new audiences.

I see my main job today. As bringing science and history to more people. People who wouldn't necessarily read. Традичнал сайнс бук. Even if it's popular science, they still won't read it, like five hundred pages of text with footnotes, it's it's th they they won't touch it.

But they might connect. And yes, it's it is for adults and and teenagers. I mean, many people in the West have the idea that comics are for kids. But no, it's it's just a different medium, it's a different language. It enables you to do I mean some things y you can't do you you need to, you know, cut down the text.

But there are many things you can do much better in a graphic novel, certainly to show things Like you know, the much of the graphic novel is about the uh life of hunter gatherers. So you can just show it in images. Instead of long descriptions. An image is worth a thousand words in many cases.

It also enabled us to and for me it was an I know the most fun project I ever worked on. Because it was okay, let's take all the academic conventions of how you write history and throw them aside. Let's experiment. So it's kind of a series of experiments. In how to

Tell history. So you know, one part about the evolution of different human species, the sapiens, Neanderthal's, and so forth, it's told like a reality TV show. that there are different competition between different human species. Then you have an entire chapter about the how humans caused the extinction.

Oh Many of the large animals of the world as they spread from Africa over the world. And this is told as a detective movie. We created this fictional detective, detective Lopez, like Sherlock Holmes or or Agatha Christiki kind of uh uh uh Person and she goes around the world.

And investigates the worst serial killers in history who Killed all these big animals. And the the the invention of the first religions is sold according to the conventions of superhero action movies. So we created this superhero superhero in Doctor Fiction. У ембодісный юмен абільті то інвент. fictional stories and and mythologies.

And it was really fun working with David and Daniel on that. And just saying well well why not? We can try that, we can do that, it's it's allowed. Yeah. It also forced me and actually all of us

Ignore in the text. When you draw You have to дraw специфік тинз. When you write, you can write in obstructions. When you draw you the you can't draw obstructions.

So if for instance you talk about The connection between Homo sapiens and Neandertals. And we now know That some sapiens in Neanderthals had sexual relations And even had children.

Because most of us today still carry some neandertal genes in our DNA. Now in a book you can just write that Sapiens had sex with Neanderthals, end of story. But in a graphic novel, if you want to draw it You have to make some decisions. I mean who is the man and who is the woman? Is it a Neanderthal man with the Sapiens woman or the other way around?

And what about skin colour? What about her colour, hairstyle? All these questions you can't draw a general human. It must have some skin color, must have some hair color. So we have to go back to the literature.

The scientific l literature and investigate and sometimes you find answers, sometimes you don't. And then you have to take into account all the ideological and political issues of race and gender and and so it's it's a huge, huge thing. to engage with all these and I I I found it that it's not like okay let's just take sapiens and add some illustrations. It's a completely fresh project. How did you problem solve when

There was a conflict or some tension between the literature and what might dictate A drawing? And the sort of political sensitivities that exist. Today. How did you how did you think about that or think through

Those types of decisions. We had a lot of discussions About these things. And Yeah, it was a balancing act.

You can't ignore science just for the sake of being політиклі корект. On the other hand, you have to be aware of the political implications of the choices you make. А мі юкант хайде бігай сантифік об'єктивні. Because There is no such thing.

is a completely objective narrative. Just choosing what is the opening scene and what is the ending scene. It doesn't come from reality. It comes from your Political, ideological or religious beliefs.

You know reality the the real reality It has no beginning and end. No historical event. Had a beginning and an end. And no historical event had a focus.

You know, it's even easier to think about it in terms of of movies. When you watch a movie let's say about the second world war So the camera is somewhere And Something is in the focus.

Of the of the shot. Something is on the side and many things are don't you don't see them at all. Now in reality there is no camera. There is no camera hanging above planet Earth. The camera of history

Which point in a particular direction and this is the center of events and this is the the the sidelines. You know, you can tell the second world war With uh Churchill as the main hero. Hitler and Stalin appearing on some uh a few a few scenes And

Millions of Chinese that died in the war never appearing at all. And you can do an entire World War Two movie just about a single Chinese village. No. Both are true. And what do you choose is not forced on you by the reality.

It reflects very often political and ideological and also artistic choices. Now when you go back to the stone age It's even more complicated because there are so many things we just don't know. I mean the the the basic things. We don't know what family structure was like. You have all these discussions about what is the natural human family. And lots of people believe, well, you know, it's obvious it's a a man, a woman, two and a half kids, and a dog.

This is a traditional family, this was always the case. But we know that even In recent history, this was not always the case, it's not the case today. In uh many countries, close to fifty percent of children don't grow up in such a family today. You go back to the Middle Ages, it's not the structure of everybody. You go to biology, to other apes.

Chimpanzees don't live like that. Gorillas don't live like that, orangutanks don't live like that like that. So how did humans live? Fifty thousand years ago. And the answer is we don't know. We have evidence from the Stone Age, we have tools, but the tools don't tell you the what was the family structure.

Uh you have cave paintings. But the in one of the interesting things about cave painting we we've found found thousands and thousands of cave paintings. From the Stone Age. There is not a single image of a family. Now lots of mammoth

There are lots of horses. There are lots of Ibacks. There are some humans also, mostly stick figures. But there isn't a single image from the Stone Age That you can say, look.

That's how they depicted a a a that a family. And what does it mean? Why do people draw all these elephants? And never bother to draw their own family. I don't know what it means. But it's It's interesting.

And it gives us as the uh you know a lot of artistic freedom. about how to deal with these issues. So like I don't know, we have this uh one scene. About Neanderthals. And you know

The Undertals had a big revolution in the last ten years. Of course. They are dead? But Our understanding of them has completely changed in the last 10 years because of so many new evidence we have, both from genetics.

But also from artifacts and archaeological records And whereas twenty years ago maybe they were still this arch typical Cave people. primitive and brutal and and things like that. Now they have a very positive image. Uh we have not only because we have the genes in our DNA

But also because we have uh evidence that they took care of of of wounded people. Of elderly people. Of disabled people. They had a much more sophisticated and maybe even art and culture than we assumed. So we have we we depicted in the graphic novel

This change in image In this scene that you see these two Neanderthal guys sitting in the office of um Uh PR consultant. And the PR consultant has on the wall this old fashioned image of a Neanderthal, a brutal Neanderthal with a big stick. Uh dragging a female by by the hair.

And there was a big X. over this image. And the PR consultant says, Well, you know, this was a good brand for the 19th century, but this is a twenty-first century. You need to lighten up your brand. And the Tunia those say, Yes, well you know, actually we two are gay.

So Obviously We don't have any evidence that they were the were gaining Andles. I mean

Our scientific understanding of sex and gender today indicates that it's very likely. But there were gaining under thoughts. But if you ask for the smoking gun, show me a grave from fifty thousand years ago with two men together, only then I believe, then of course we don't have this. But we we hardly have um we we don't have a lot of direct evidence for sex in the Stone Age. We have a lot of indirect evidence, like from genes. So we know that sapiens in Neandertals had sex.

But maybe also the were cases of a sapiens man having sex with a Neanderthalman Could be. No evidence in the genes, of course. But could it have happened? Maybe. And uh we have this autistic license that we can show that. It it makes sense.

Well also I mean this is maybe g going down a rabbit hole, but if you look at the behavior of of chimpanzees And others. I mean there's There's some evidence to suggest that that type of interaction certainly exists. Sure.

Current day. Precursors in a sense. these graphic novels and they're coming out in four volumes. What do you anticipate or hope the spacing to be of those of those volumes? Oh we hope one every year. Um the main challenge is the drawing. I mean this is Daniel's job.

And I draw like a five year old kid. I mean they can't depend on me for anything when it comes to the drawing. And it takes a lot of time. To draw, you know, these hundreds of of images. And also it goes back and forth because he Daniel draws an image, or a couple of images and send them, and then we go, No! The archaeological evidence indicates that actually the spear points were not like you depicted. And then I mean the the the the the political issues that okay we we we we need a more balanced gender relations in this image and and you it goes back to Daniel and he needs to to to draw it again and it takes a long time.

So I guess it will be one volume each year. And the big hope that it will reach new audiences. That may not read. You know, if four hundred page text. about the history of of humankind, but would be interested and would find it fun.

And engaging. Uh when it's sold in a graphic novel. I've seen the graphic novel. And uh it's really well done. I I have to say, you know, I've I've I've read I have Probably five thousand to ten thousand comic books uh that I've saved and polybagged over the years. And I've collected

Everything from Sandman in the US to Yeah, dozens of different graphic novels in Japan. Uh it's very well done. So I mean you yeah, you and your team deserve a lot of credit for that. I'd love to ask a question. About Your mission statement.

Now, I don't know if you would call it a mission statement, maybe it is. So this is from the New Yorker Profile from this year. And It describes how your mission statement reads as follows, and this is on a bulletin board in your office.

Keep your eyes on the ball, focus on the main global problems facing humanity. Learn to distinguish reality from illusion. Care about suffering. And I guess sir there was previously embrace ambiguity, but that got scratched out. Yes. So

Could you Explain the origins. Of this mission statement, please. No, it's it's a couple of mission statements. You know, as as as we expand our team

It becomes more difficult. To get everybody on the same page. Each person has a different personal and professional background. And so when it was just me or just my husband and me, there was no need to write down these official mission statements.

But when you have fifteen employees then it's it's it becomes important. And we had a long discussion. And uh like a back and forth also with all the employees and w we came up with these is is several kind of general guidelines. to to keep in mind. And the the maybe the most important thing is that we see our task as

Хелпінг то фокус де глобал конверсейшн. On the most important issues. Because One of the big problems of the twenty first century is people are flooded by enormous amounts of information. It's not like in the past when information was scarce.

And the problem was how to get it. Now it's the opposite. And you just don't know what to pay attention to. And it also goes back to my practice of meditation. Офхату стей фокус. And it's kind of flink the personal practice.

Ways the global project. Um of again we we don't see ourselves as providing solutions. But just kind helping to steer the global conversation In the most important directions. You have such a

Хисторикол контекст For Determining the relative weight to a sign. to different events or phenomena in the world.

As indicated or Described in the example of terrorist attacks and their sort of cultural or I shouldn't say cultural, but historic significance. Like yes, they're horrible. Yes. the theater and

Graphic nature of it. is very compelling to the human psyche, which would also be true of, say, a shark attack, right? If a twelve year old boy were attacked by a shark. on the east coast of the United States. It would be in every newspaper. And there would be a huge response, probably dramatic over harvesting of sharks, so on and so forth. But in the sweep of

human history, its importance is is Close to zero, negligible. What are you Some of the more important The main global problems facing humanity from your perspective.

Well, as we speak I think the three big ones are nuclear war. Which you know, people tend to connect with the Cold War. Yeah, there was something there about nuclear weapons. But they were still here. And uh I don't think we'll see a gl nuclear war in the next few months. But if tensions in the world continue to grow

Then it will become again a major issue. And it is an existential issue. Other things can't destroy us, but nuclear war can. So we have to keep it in mind all the time. The second big thing is ecological collapse. It's not just climate change that gets most of the headlines lately, it's many other things also.

Like loss of biodiversity and destruction of habitats and so forth. But generally speaking, yes, we are seeing Uh we are in where is nuclear war? You know, it's just a future possibility. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't happen.

Ecological collapse is has already began, it's all around us. And it threatens again, it's an existential danger. It threatens the foundations of our civilization. I guess that some people will survive it. But uh if it if things really go bad With the economic and political implications of it.

It could Cost the lives of billions of people. And the third big one, and I think most complicated, is Technological disruption. The consequences of disruptive technologies, especially artificial intelligence and bioengineering.

It's the most complicated challenge. Because you know, with nuclear war and climate change and ecological collapse, you can disagree whether it's true or not, but Everybody agrees what needs to be done about it to stop it. Nobody thinks that having a nuclear war is a good idea. Nobody thinks that climate change is a good idea. Maybe some people deny it. But they don't say it's good.

Now with technological disruption it's much much more complicated. Because uh it has a lot of positive potential. A lot of people positively wish To see greater and faster technological disruptions And there is no agreement whatsoever.

about what we should do with technology like AI or like bioin The dreams of some people are the nightmares of other people. So it's very complicated. Again, like like uh ecological collapse, it's not a future scenario, it's already happening all around us. And I think the pace is such

That It may to some people it sounds like Crazy, but I strongly believe That given the technologies we are now developing Within a century or two at most, our species will disappear.

The w I don't think that in in the end of the twenty first cent uh twenty second century The earth will still be dominated by Homo sapiens. I think given the immense powers of technologies we are developing There are two scenarios only. One scenario which is the that the technology will destroy humanity. And I think it's less likely but still possible.

The more likely scenario Is that it will change humanity in a profound way. That we will use Ai and Bioengineering. To change Homo sapiens and to create new kinds of beings. That will be much more different from us than we are different from Neanderthos or from Chimpanzees.

To give just one example. I think it is possible that we will create the first inorganic life forms. After four billion years of organic evolution So Again, it's not the destruction of our species, it's the changing of species into something else.

But what kind of thing it will be We have to be extremely careful about that. It won't necessarily be A better version of us. Could be much, much worse.

Could you give A bit more detail around the New inorganic Life form and in your mind's eye. If we change for the worse.

In some Tech enabled way. Mm-hmm. Deliberately or by accident, what might that look like to you? Well I'll start with the second question of what it could look like. You know, you could use

What ever technology to інкріз The Efficiency of people, the intelligence of people At the price

of things like autistic sensitivity Or like spiritual depth. I mean if you ask armies, if you ask corporations, if you ask governments, what do you need from your employees, from your soldiers? They were say, Oh we want people to be more efficient. We want people to reach to be more logical. We want people to be

More disciplined. And if you have the technology, then you engineer such people, even if it comes, and it always comes at I mean usually when you improve something it tends to come at the price of something else. And things like I don't know, spiritual depth, what kind of army needs its soldiers to have spiritual depth? So

If you leave it to the corporations and armies, it's very likely that once you have a technology To change humans. It will I would say downgrade them and not upgrade them. It will make them more efficient soldiers or or employees or whatever, but it will make them kind of poor bijings Lesser beings.

So that's about just one scenario. Of what does it mean to downgrade people? Now with regard to inorganic life forms, you know, for four billion years everything on on the planet was org All iPhones were organic. Whether it's a bacteria or a mammoth or a a tree or a human, it's it's organic. It obeys the laws of organic chemistry.

Now is the rise of AI. We might have a chance. Again, I'm I'm tend to be agnostic about it, I'm not sure. But it is possible. that in a couple decades we will be able to create

Either completely inorganic beings Or at least Part organic, part inorganic cyborgs. And this will be if it happens, it will be the biggest revolution in the history of life since the beginning of life. Much, much bigger than the creation of mammoth or the the creation of mammals or humans because it's a completely different game.

Once you're no longer subject to organic chemistry. We can't even begin to imagine. But it means because our imagination. Is the product. of organic chemistry.

So if you have a kind of intelligence which is not or based on organic chemistry You know, who uh it can be anything. If you look at the Over the next So you were talking about the I guess the the twenty second century and

the prevalence, dominance, or existence of Homo sapiens if we look over the next fifty years just to choose an arbitrary time frame. Of Nuclear war. Ecological collapse. Or these

Unforeseen accidents or Uh mistakes of High technology. Which scares you the most, or which do you worry about the most? I worry most about the third.

Because of what I said earlier that it's the most complicated. that it's not enough to be kind of I don't know good and wise. To deal with the first two. It will be very hard to deal with the first two as it is. But the third one is really complicated.

Because there is no agreement on on the goal. With the first two at least there is an agreement on the goal. And and then that that makes it very, very complicated. Also, you know, the first two Nobody is actively working To make it happen sooner.

And even the people who deny climate change. They are not in favor of climate change. They just say th it it's not really doesn't happen. But with AI and bioengineering, they're some of the most powerful people and organizations and governments and corporations in the world. They are extremely busy.

Making it happen faster. And it's also We don't have a framework even to think about it properly. So I as a thinker and as a politician I think this is where I can contribute the most.

is in trying to entangle This kind of completely ню трет. Just a few more questions then I'll uh I'll let you get going'cause I know we're separated by quite a few time zones. When you are Thinking about these threats.

Perhaps Harkening back to your times reading. Aldus Huxley's work. And Here we're talking about Brave New World and not Island, right? Very different uh descriptions, although some parallels.

When you feel the potential for These various types of collapse or disaster. What keeps you going? Where do you find the light? Mm.

It's a good question. Uh You know, if if if you're able to deal with your own mortality As every person has to. On some level.

Then You should be able to deal with the potential mortality of the entire species. I mean it's Still part of biology, yes, individuals come and go. Nations come and go, also internal species come and go.

Ninety nine percent of the species that evolved on planet Earth are gone. For one reason or or another. Homo sapiens also is not internal. Uh again, even in the best scenario, I don't think Homo sapiens will be around in two or three hundred years. The best scenario is that Homo sapiens will disappear, but in a peaceful and gradual way and be replaced by something better.

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever. That people like like us will just continue to have lives like us in two hundred years. But there will be in two hundred years a professor of history sit sitting and having a Podcast, tok. with somebody it it it's not going to happen. I mean in the the the the changes are going to be too big.

So Uh maybe it goes back again to the practice of meditation and the realization that uh Change. Is the only certainty. In in life.

So you might as well tune into the changes so that you're at least aware that you're responding to your reactions to things outside and not the outside itself. Well, you've all this has been A lot of fun. For me. I think it's nice to connect with you. And Of course I will link to everything in the show notes for people. The volume one

Mm-hmm. Uh your series Sapiens A Graphic History is out now. Volume one can be found and I'll include links to that. In The show notes for everyone at Tim.blog slash podcasts. Your website is Y N Harare.

Uh Facebook Is Prof. Uval dot Noah. Harari Twitter, Harare underscore Uval, Instagram, Uval underscore Noah underscore Harare, and I'll provide all of those so people don't have to remember them. Is there anything else that you would like to Say to my audience, ask of the audience, suggest to the audience before we wrap up.

Uh no, just thank you for your time. I know that uh time and attention are the most valuable resources today for most people. So I hope you benefited from investing them in in listening to us. Likewise. And I I can certainly speak for myself in saying that I enjoyed it quite a lot. And definitely check out Ted Chang Exhalation. I think you'll love it. I'll I have a bunch of notes for things that I will be checking out and to everyone listening. Until next time, thank you for tuning in.

Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off. for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by All Four. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've probably heard me talk about Helix sleep.

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