#176 with Codie Sanchez - Buying Distressed Assets, Real Estate for Cheap & How to Network Like a Pro

Most people should not be out there trying to build the next Facebook. And I think it's kind of fucked up that a lot of people try to tell people that's what they should do. Most people want Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? You want your family taken care of, you want food on the table, you want to be able to do the shit you want to do on the weekends and that's it. And so I like the portfolio actually better of a portfolio of small bets. I think of buying businesses a lot like I think about buying stocks. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I can be what I want to Sam you showed up. I thought uh

I thought you were too hung over from last night's pod. That went till two in the morning. Uh, just to show up today. Dude, it went later for me. I mean, I didn't go to bed till four. What time did you what time what time was it over for you? It ended, but my brain didn't turn off. So like I don't even know if I slept last night. I straight so we so Cody, we had um Apology on the pod yesterday. And uh I don't know if you know him.

He definitely um You know has like a ton of different ideas and thoughts, and he's like super, super smart on a math perspective, science. Uh, you know, technically for computer science, Um and so he was, you know, rattling off a bunch of interesting things. But when he left and I'm going to sleep and it's just, you know, uh you know, I'm sitting there, I'm in bed, my dog's in the bed, and like

My mind is like making up It was straight up I was just making up like scientific theories in its head. Like you know that state where you're dreaming, but you're You're like lucid dreaming or whatever, you're like kind of like half asleep. And so I was half asleep, but my mind was like, Oh, but then the vector has to go to the scalar and then it has to, you know, the order of magnitude. And I was like, then I'd wake up and be like, What the fuck am I talking like, what the fuck is going through my head? This is not even this is gibberish. This is scientific gibberish. And that straight up happened like the whole night. So uh not a great privately. I think is the moral of the story.

Ha ha. Well he uh She's just like Like we've had a I think we've had one other person on the podcast. Like I guess Michael Saylor could be this, but I I for sure think that uh Rahul from Superhuman was like this.

But there's like these h a handful of people who we've talked to and you'd have people say, like, Oh, that person's a genius. They're not they don't really mean it. But if we define genius as just like a certain IQ, I would bet a lot of money that Yeah. He was the highest IQ person that I've ever had a conversation with. And it was very obvious.

And he actually was quite He tried really hard to hide it in that he tried to act. Nice and friendly. Yeah. And there was times where he was like, Sorry, you guys probably don't understand that. Let me try to re explain. And that was kind that was actually pretty cool. But she just His he's just smarter than me. Like his he's uh his oven just burns hotter and I there's nothing I can do to try to understand that. Like

I remember one time I I didn't want to embarrass Sean, but like biology was telling something and he used something he used math metaphor. He's like the vector. He's like what I try to find is the dot product between me and this, and I was like, dot product. I remember that like an eighth grade or I got I heard this phrase 15 years ago, didn't understand it then, never ever thought about it again. And then he's referencing it for like The way he thinks about something. He's like, You know, so I try to find the dot product and I was like Fucking what that means. Like she went from math. So he was at talking about math to talk about an idea and then he moved to like

Uh this one battle like some type of chemistry. And then he went to the battle of the balls. And he goes to Sean, he goes. Sean, you know, like you know, like at the battle of the bulls, right? Um And Sean was like, Yeah. And he's a I don't think you knew what the battle of the ball was. Anyway, it was an interesting podcast, but this this isn't about him. This is about. Sometimes I'm kind of glad I'm not like that, honestly. Could you imagine how like you felt like that last night, Sean? Could you imagine being in his head every day?

Or at like a dinner with normal people, he probably wants to kill himself. Yeah, we were we even asked him about that stuff. Uh we were like, you know We asked a whole bunch of questions that were like, I hope not even like condescending, but were kinda like, Were you always like this? And like What did what did your family think? Like, were you like an oddball to them? Or are they like was this like totally normal? Because I've never met somebody like you, so I wanna know like What's your life like? What do you do for fun? Like

Uh, you know, how does this all work? And so We asked him a bunch of goofy questions like that. Actually, unfortunately the best the very best part was at the end, after the recording ended, and we just kinda After a three and a half hour podcast, we then shot the shit for like thirty minutes, and it was great, and his guard was totally down and Uh that was awesome. And then Sam started helping him with his newsletter tips, and he was like taking notes, and he was like, Oh, this is this is great. This is awesome stuff. And like that was ironically the best and simplest part of the podcast. And we have like three and a half hours of like

Good stuff, but in a Th I mean the way you said it, hi his oven burns hotter than ours. Uh, and so, you know, I didn't feel like we were able to really add too much to the conversation or really like steer it because I was like riding a Bronco that I didn't know how to ride. Basically it's too smart for me. I love that. Can't wait to hear it.

So uh with that out of the way. Welcome to our guest. Uh Cody's Cody's here. So uh Cody, how do you uh how I guess like How do you explain yourself, uh, when you kinda introduce yourself'cause you have A newsletter that's Pretty cool con you know, uh uh this country and cash flow newsletter.

You have an investment uh fund and business there. You I've built and owned businesses, I think majority share in some businesses. So like what do you how do you describe this jack of all trades? So Hi, I'm Cody. Here's what I do. What do you say?

Well, I think if I'm on an airplane sitting next to somebody, I usually tell them I'm a salesperson, so I don't have to talk too much. Uh, but in in a conversation where I was trying to impress somebody. You know, I I'd probably say I'm an investor. I am a private equity investor. I run a fund that's about a couple of hundred million bucks focused on cannabis. Before that, I did a merging markets, couple billion dollars raised there. And uh and now I write about all the things I wish I knew when I was first figuring out anything to do with this green language of money. Um, and I do that at Contrary and Thinking and I mailed the two. But I think these days that's not that weird. There's a ton of VCs, not so many PE investors out there probably that write about investing and share their ideas. And I kind of think that's probably the future and way it's going going forward. You y I didn't know that. I knew that you had the newsletter But so you have a you run a

There's five partners. But yeah. We have uh Two hundred million dollar cannabis private equity fund. We invest in companies that do like ten to fifty million dollars in revenue, largely, it's called entourage effect capital. And uh we've invested in sixty seven companies thus far. Some cool ones, um that you all would know. I think there's been six unicorns in there thus far. So

You know, um, you guys would maybe know GTI, Green Thumb Industries, Acreage, Canopy Growth, uh, Cura Leaf, I don't know. If you're big weed connoisseurs, you'd know them. And then uh and then we have a smaller fund that's about twenty million bucks that's for micro PE. So that's just me and a couple other partners' money where we buy small businesses. And that's if if we'd sort of fancy and Not fancy, I guess, trendy. Uh then the other one are super boring and things that, you know, your your father did when you were growing up and you didn't tell people about. And that's like, uh, give us examples. We're talking laundromats, we're talking, um what what are we talking about? Plumbing businesses. What do you look at? Yeah, the actually the first one was a plumbing deal. We started it because my uncle Eb, uh he had a five million dollar business. Let me make sure I get the numbers right, that was doing about two to three million dollars in profit. And he was old, you know, seventies ish, and he was a

sharecropper, he grew up in a sharecropping family, um, didn't know anything about the business world. And when he came to uh retire, he didn't know anything about MA. So instead of selling the company, he basically just wound it down. And uh and you know, he took a company that had two to three million dollars in profit and just just, you know, let everybody go and sort of wound on the business. And I thought that was a real waste. And so um we realized, wait a second, there's actually like a business model here. It's called PE, I've been doing it for 12 years at Goldman and Vanguard and State Street and all these different firms. Why don't why don't they apply this to these micro sized businesses, anything below three mil? And uh instead of us making a bunch of money for other people, we can make money for ourselves. So we ended up taking an offshoot of Eb Holmes plumbing. You can look it up, it's in Phoenix. And we bought a another plumbing company, rolled it in, sold that one. That was a little tiny company. And uh and then I've done it for a bunch of others. And now we own Laundromats, we own a podcast production company, uh, we own some lawn care businesses, we own a professional services business that's in the cleaning space. So a slew of tiny, sort of boring businesses. And most of the time.

uh I don't operate any of them. There's somebody else that's an operator in them, or we place somebody in the business. Uh we love this model. Me and Sam both uh a couple of our best friends started a kind of micro PE firm. We invested in it and I think have been I don't know, Sam. I don't know how f how closely you track them, but we've been I've been learning a ton as they l look at all these different deals and It just seems like there's this huge generational shift of

People who are aging out of their business. And need to hand it off. The kids don't want to take it over necessarily or aren't able to, or whatever. And so basically the boomers handing over businesses. There's just like all these businesses that are beautiful. five, fifteen million dollars a year profitable. Super steady book of business. Um, and you can you can buy these out in like super reasonable multiples.

Yeah, it's like a sixty five, seven year old mom and dad whose kids went to a good school and they're like Uh I'd rather work at Facebook than run the movie company, please. Um I don't wanna do that. Uh so and they're like All right, what do we do now? Uh and that's what these guys are buying. It's it's going great. Uh Like I get their updates, they're making a lot of money for them.

Yeah, for me. Can you can you can you draw a quick line? So like let's do a quick uh hop through the resume because so people can'cause I think where you're at now is super interesting. Anytime I meet somebody who's in a really interesting spot now. I'm like, how the hell did you get there? Uh so you said something like Goldman, but like Without going into the details of like, Oh, I did this and here's how it went, just sort of like I went to school thinking I do this.

First job was here, second job was here, third job was here, now I'm here. Like can you give us that. That is short and sweet. Uh so I went to school totally unrelated to anything financial. I'm not really a a finance nerd at the core. Um, I started off in human uh trafficking and drug smuggling as a journalist, not doing it, uh, but along the US Mexico border. So um so I was covering things like uh you know old people being left behind at the border. And um, you know, went with a couple coyotes and actually saw what the process was like. And anyway. Super young at the time. I thought I was gonna change the world, realized like you know, Britney Spears shaves her head and nobody cares about these stories. So maybe there's a different way. And so anyway, uh so move from uh journalism to had my little quarterlife crisis.

And decided that maybe I wanted to understand finance because my last name's Sanchez. All these people's last name was Sanchez Suarez, whatever the case may be. And I was in a very different position than they were. So I was like, what's the difference? Why are they there? And I'm here. And I think the only inter difference is green. It's not actually even that I'm American. And so went to from there, I got recruited to go to Vanguard. accelerated development program. Saw a bunch of parts of finance. Didn't understand any of it, but journalists, we ask a lot of questions. So it's pretty decent at that. So ask a lot of questions. Got from Vanguard, they're all about passive investing, right? So create an index, that was at the very beginning, ETFs, uh, and create an index and replicate and replicate and replicate. And I thought that was cool, but not that sexy or fun. So I went to Goldman. And I wanted to understand active. How do we do IPOs? What do these alternatives look like? Is there more margin?

Then went from Goldman to State Street. Ran uh international investment business for State Street at the time. And then uh left did a JV with a company called First Trust. And built out their international portion. So I grew the business to a couple billion in Latin America.

And uh and basically we sold products to big pensions, sovereign wealth funds, et cetera. And then after that business, I was ready to exit myriad of reasons. and looking for the next emerging markets. Uh and I sort of investing in cannabis a few years back, but real quiet. Wasn't sure my mom would approve, and uh and then went full in as a partner into EEC. What's your um

Um, what's your heritage? You said that you're are you I You're talking about the foreigners. So I'm half Spanish, half Mexican. Are you Catholic? Yes. Me too. So a m a Mexican Catholic mother probably wasn't a fan of uh what you're doing. Baby's a weed financier. She was really excited about it. Um just making daddy proud. But um, you know, I think once we

kinda understood, I mean, here's my pitch on cannabis, but once we kinda understood the you know, psychoactive portion of it and the benefits for those who are overusing opioids. Like I got her around to it. But certainly up front, she was not thrilled about that. But that's when you know, right? When people think you're a little crazy for doing something, there's usually At least some opportunity left. Otherwise all the smart people would have moved first. And I'm

Not smarter than anybody else. I'm just better at maybe finding some early emerging markets people won't go into yet. And I thought you would be a great guest for two reasons. A, I went on your thing and you were so prepared. Uh, I I'm not anywhere near as prepared for this as you were for me, unfortunately, but I knew enough which was like, Oh, she's great at talking and uh which is like half the battle. And then the other half is like, Oh wait, she's like wicked smart with a bunch of industries that I think people don't know a ton about. So micro P E, I know there's a lot of people interested, but For most people it's a little bit daunting. They don't understand

How do I identify the businesses? How do you value them? How do you buy them? What do you do after you buy them? That sort of thing. And then same thing with cannabis. Uh People kinda know it's a big market. But Don't spend, you know, if you're not spending every day in that world, you don't know how it's going, how what's what's been growing.

It's a use to A bunch of things. So you sent us ideas. On the micro PE side you sent us ideas on the cannabis side. And then you sent us some controversial thoughts. Sam, where do you want to start uh of those three? Uh, the ideas, particularly the the she posted something in trends about mailbox

Mailboxes which you just have like five or eight different things that I think are interesting. They're not like huge home runs. But There are Small

business, entrepreneur, like stuff shit that like an immigrant who came from nothing, like would start and then eventually thirty years and they would have like a like an empire. Let's rap let's rapid fire them and here's how we'll do it. Uh you sent us this bullet point list. I'm just gonna say the phrase and you'd be like, Okay, so here's what I'm thinking. And then if we just want to switch, if I'm like, Oh, okay, that's great, uh, I'm just gonna throw another one at you and then you go from there. I think you'll be able to volley these pretty well. All right, so let's do that one. Mailbox money. What are you what are you thinking about here? So this is pack and ship centers. So basically think FedEx, UPS, except get rid of the franchise fees, because that's twenty five percent of your Your profit off the top.

And instead you just put, you know, Sam and Sean's shipping center on the front of it. And what this is that I didn't realize, my friend Lisa did it. I'm always curious for my people who make money in ways that are repeatable, since I'm not smart enough, like Bology or whatever his name is, to create the next Tesla. Instead, I just want a bunch of stuff that cash flows now. Um and so with this You know how everybody's obsessed with storage units? Like Everybody builds these storage centers and that's been like the sexy thing. Right. And and that's really just a riff on everybody was obsessed with.

multifamily and apartment beforehand, they're like going smaller and smaller and smaller, but still trying to get as much profit as possible. Well that's what pack and ships are. So essentially the money is not in the taping of boxes and the stuffing of stuffing to make sure stuff doesn't break. It's actually in the little mailboxes in the front. Uh oh I was gonna ask you, what do you think of this uh P P Box rental? So I first I like the trend. Which is you're buying a box of real estate. And you want like kind of these low operation, you know, rental units. So okay, self storage, but now you shrink shrink the self storage unit.

Instead of being, you know, a hundred square foot little room, you're shrinking it down into a one square foot box that you're renting out for twenty bucks. And what you were saying, so let's just do the math real quick on this. You're saying Two hundred boxes in a location, roughly. Is that right? Two hundred would be what you don't want. That's UPS FedEx. Go a thousand. Okay.

Okay, okay, gotcha. Okay, that now the math math works. So a thousand boxes average$15 a month of renting out the P boxes. And how do you get customers to like what does she do to get what does your friend Lisa do to get customers? How does she acquire these PO box tenants. Well, I the the smartest way, what I talked to her when we were doing, she built the first one that took a year and a half to become profitable because she had to do what you were just talking about. It's not really that complex of a business. It's ads, so P PC. It's dropping actual hard mailings in the surrounding neighborhood. It's things like she does like a book setup out front, little um pop ups for the neighborhood where you can like, you know, free packing if you ship this day, all that kind of stuff. Those squiggly arm things, you know, that you put outside of a new unit. All that stuff.

And then uh she uh but but the second store I told her to buy. And so what she did is went out and bought an already an existing store that had customers and then just upsold them. And that's a much easier way to do it. And so you buy the store for about two to three X profit. Her second store she got for about one point five X retiring. uh owner. And then she was able to take that business and sort of double the revenue for that one. Uh I like this idea. I actually might steal this idea because um

I just rented out a big warehouse for my wife's uh uh business and One thing we could do is just put a bunch of these mailboxes in uh into that space and uh and just actually offer this as a sort of a a simple way to take advantage of a small footprint of real estate. Yeah, I think you have to decide what what type of human you are. Like if you are the type of human that has a cap capability to build up a really big business, and that's what you in fact want to be a CEO of a hostel or to be a CEO of an even bigger company, then I think the ROI. On that is potentially more interesting long term. You're not going to get the same type of multiples with these tiny businesses. But here's the thing, most people are not like the three of us.

And I don't even know if we'd all be in the same category. We're all different in the way we've built things. Most people should not be out there trying to build the next Facebook. And I think it's kind of fucked up that a lot of people try to tell people that's what they should do. Most people want Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? You want your family taken care of, you want food on the table, you want to be able to do the shit you want to do on the weekends and that's it. And so I like the portfolio actually better of a portfolio of small bets. I think of buying businesses a lot like I think about buying stocks. So how can I get a little portfolio of them with somebody running or operating them so that my risk is diversified. And um you're right, it takes more time, but if what you're really going for is I want to make

Yeah, two hundred thousand, three hundred thousand, five hundred thousand, a million bucks a year. And that that is my goal, not to change the world. There's so many better ways to do it than do a start up, in my opinion. Yeah, I'm a hundred percent with you on that. Uh I think the build versus Build versus buy is so slanted towards build because building sounds sexy, building sounds like virtuous, it's what the media talks about.

And um It's really unfortunate because I know a lot of people that would have been really happy with two hundred fifty K a year of profits. Um and low maintenance, low headache. And um And unfortunately they get sucked into either one of two paths it's like I guess I'll do the startup thing'cause I wanna be entrepreneur. I wanna be kind of my own boss.

Uh, so then I gotta like do this from scratch, find product market fit. Like, damn, that's hard. And the other path was like, Oh, that's that sounds really hard. I'm just gonna stick at this job. And um and you know, I'll be an employee for the next, you know, twenty five years and never really get that freedom because I'm sort of on their schedule. I'm basically renting my time out to this company. And so the b the by path versus build or join. I think by gets

criminally underrated right now. But I think it's changing. Like we have Andrew Wilkinson on the podcast a lot. One of the reasons he's so popular is that When he says what he does, there's a hell of a lot of people out there who are like shit. I want to do that. That sounds fun. Uh that sounds like an easier path than the one I'm on right now. And so I think it's quite appealing.

Yeah. Sam, you wanna jump to one of these other ones that sounds interesting to you? We got I see a bunch that I know you'd like. Tiny homes, buying distressed assets for zero dollars, laundromats, which one do you want to do? Oh We gotta tell you, Sam.

Audio's gone again. Okay. Sam has uh pieced out the technical difficulties have overcome him and he cannot continue on. He is the he is out of the game. Uh okay, I'll do one. Uh so I want to talk about just buying distressed assets for zero dollars. Is this something you've done or Why did you bring this up on the list? Yeah. So this one is one I've done. Um, and actually there's an example of it. I'll give you the actual example. So I have a friend, Britney, who owns a bunch of gyms.

And not a bunch, she owns two. And they're like the you know, like the gyms that um a lot of women go to where they have, you know, set classes and you know, they all get in and work together. It's kinda like women's crossfit, but Not with big weights. Anyway. So she owns a couple of those.

Like shapes without the franchise, basically. Exactly. So um she was telling me that a bunch of her friends, their businesses, Pilates studios, bar, whatever, were going out of business, right? During the pandemic. And um what was fascinating to me is she was like so I'm buying some equipment, you know, I feel bad for them, I'm helping them out. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. The way we gotta do this is Think about those businesses. They're going under and they're worth now zero to the market, but they have value. So, you know, they're not getting anything out of the client roster that they have, all the goodwill that they've built up. So what we decided to do was reach out to some of these gym owners and basically say, Hey, you know, I'm really sorry. I know you're going through this terrible time. What if we could help annuitize you a little bit where you could get some revenue off of the the business that you're about to close for zero and instead

We can do a rev share. And so I own a business right now. We'll transition over your clients from your business to mine. very carefully, very thoughtfully, but give them a new home. And then for every client that we bring over from you, I'll pay you out on it for a year. Or I'll pay you out on it for six months at X amount and 24 months at Y amount. However we want to structure it. But this way you actually make money while you're closing. Your clients have a new house and

And we have new clients and we can serve them and we're friends and you like me anyway. And so This business, what to me what's fascinating is nobody's doing this that I know of. Like I if I owned any business, I would be out there right now. For every business closing on Yelp, sixty percent of the businesses on Yelp that close temporarily close per permanently. So I would be out there right now going after every one of their client lists, even if they were unrelated and doing discounts and coupon codes, giving a Rev share to the owner who probably could use it and taking their client space. And that's how I would buy distressed assets. I wouldn't spend a dime.

I love that. I think that's great. Uh and it's basically you're picking up the assets and none of the liability. So you're you're not buying the business and then having the rent and then you know having to bring that business back up. You're basically saying what is the what is remaining as an asset to this business? Um and it's the customer roll roll index. And I think that's a that's a great one that costs zero out of pocket from day one. It's just profit share uh, you know, if if a customer does come on over to you. So I think that's a great one. Uh let's talk about um modular homes or tiny homes. I think you have a couple of ideas on this. So uh you have one. Yeah, we bought a modular home.

Which I didn't even know. Did you know there's a difference between manufactured and a modular home? There's all this weird terminology. No, like I actually this is what I was gonna ask you is like w I thought a manufactured home is a modular home. No, there are two different things. Yeah, this I guess so a manufactured home basically means it's what we think about like stereotypically, right? It's a it's a trailer home, basically. All the difference is is that there's no foundation set. So you can pick that bad boy up and you can move it, right? That's manufactured. Modular is that it's built in pieces. Which is modular what that means, but it has a foundation. So at the end of the day, there's really no difference between a what is called a stick built home, a house that probably you're living in that I live in right now, and this modular home.

But the crazy part is Is well one we've all seen these cool modular homes all over the place popping up. But I was surprised. I'm like They don't really make sense, not at scale. They're not.

That much chiper. And they're not that much faster when you just drop one on your property. And I did a bunch of research, asked a bunch of people, they're kind of sexy, but they're not that much Cheaper. But when they are cheaper is when you do them at scale. And I was I was surprised that there weren't any developments that did this. And so I started scouring the country, found a few, one in Park City.

and bought there and the numbers were amazing and I bought it, so I know they're real. We bought our house. For Nine hundred thousand dollars in Park City. And um

On an acre. Three thousand square feet. The average price Average or median. is like uh two point five million dollars in park city.

So the cost that they were able to save was so amazing and they didn't pass it on to the user fully. I think they weren't sure if we all were gonna Actually buy into this. But the houses are super sick. Um and I think that's a model. If I was a developer, I'd be using those all day long and

And I'd probably buy a modular. housing company and then use it. Don't you think? Right. Yeah, and so when you look at that home today, can you tell basically this is anything but a normal home? Like is it aesthetically different? Uh once if you didn't know coming in what it was. So I'll drop you the link right now. I'm not gonna say where.

It is, just in case anybody wants to come yell at me about something stupid I say, a line. Um, but uh I'll drop you the link and you can see the difference. But no, it's super sweet looking. So it's It's kinda the open concept, big windows, whatever the case may be, and uh and you can't tell the difference. The only difference really is that the turnaround time, so we bought this in December of last year or January. February, I don't know. And it'll be done by July.

And so It hadn't been at all. Are you gonna add to it? Like Yeah. Are you gonna have more modules to it? So I'm gonna add a back office.

Like module. And then what we did is we got like five or six of our friends to buy in the same community. And they're cool looking. And so I think I'm gonna do some event or something and utilize the four or five of them and then you could have it as a tax write off because it'll essentially be like a little business. Okay, this house is safe. And so the company that's doing the development there the company that's doing the development here, they are not the actual uh manufacturer. So there's three layers, right? There's the manufacturing level

Then there's gonna be uh probably some delivery layer. And then there's the developer who's doing a development marketing that. And then there's like kind of the individual home buyer uh beyond that. So have you looked at the manufacturers of this? Yeah, so that's where this one's interesting. The the builder and the manufacturer are actually in this deal together. So they do own the modular company and at least a portion of it. And then the builder is one that's built this in a couple other places. They also have another location that I think is cool and also could work at scale, which is modular tiny. Hotel.

Reals, essentially. And I believe that's in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Um, and the economics are just so fascinating because You know, our modular home will be built in less than six months. It's about a third of the cost the square footage uh If you break out by square footage, it's about the third of the cost. And then the part that's interesting is in these locations where there the weather's terrible. you know, and you can't break ground very often, they um they build it all in a warehouse. So it's fine. They lay the foundations all in one period of time and then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, do all throw all the houses up as opposed to everybody else. And Park City has to wait like, you know, two years or something like that. So we'll see, but so far so good.

Okay, this is pretty sick. I like this one. Um, I'm gonna jump to more because I wanna see uh what these other ones are all about. So talk to me a little bit about let's do a couple of the controversial thoughts. Um I'm gonna rip through them. Pretty quickly and uh And so let's let's do the first one. Number one, angel investing is largely dumb.

Is that painful because we both are angel investors too, and you have a rolling phone. No, I actually I I actually say this I say this often and people are like, You have a rolling fun I'm like, Yeah, uh I don't of of all my investment types that I do, this is I would say the worst one. But I think it's still good and fun and I do it anyways, but I have like two or three better ones than I do besides this. Yeah. So I think you know, one of my uh good friend's name is Justin Donald and we're both pretty obsessed with deal structuring. One of the big biggest things I have a problem with with angel investing is it's it's too fun. It's like gambling.

Right. Like you get excited about the founders. And guess what? Founders are charismatic. That's how they raise millions of dollars. And so you end up getting sold and it's not their fault. And then, you know, there's fraud. And you know, I wrote this whole piece about this one guy that we lost to two million dollars with because he just But super egotistical had like big images of himself on the wall, like all this stuff later that I got added to my due diligence questionnaire of like how many images of yourself do you have in your office? But um but but the uh the thing with angel investing is you know this, you need like twenty, thirty, forty deals for every one to four that are gonna go through. And so I think that the other thing that we do a disservice is telling people to invest in angel early on. Once you've made a few million dollars, and I mean that literally, then I think go into angel investing, or if you're on a path where You're making really good money and you've made at least half a million, a million bucks, then I think you can start angel investing. But until then, you know, let other people lose money and learn from it. You said it. Like

You were like take up take a you know, docine image of every deal you want to do, write down how you do it, time stamp it so people can see, and then decide later on how good you are at it without burning through a few tens of thousands of dollars. Yeah, exactly. Uh okay, so I have a bunch more thoughts there, but I I largely agree with you And I would say like it's one of those here's my red flag is In order to talk in order to justify angel investing, you have to give a blend of reasons. It's like, well, it's really fun. Uh, I like learning about the you know, the future and the market. And these are all true things, by the way. So it is fun.

You do learn a shit ton, so it's like an education. Um, you can make great money if it, you know, pans out as as you Assemble your basket, you know, you should over a You know, you should you know be netting, you know, a twenty percent plus IRR. Uh it just takes a long time, it's illiquid. Um And it's like not too much work, um, because you're largely investing in your network that you've already built for 10 years. Like that's kind of the thing. And so there's like this blended reason. And anytime you have a blended reason, it just really means that there's not one really great reason to do something. Um

And so those are always like, you know, suboptimal choices I find for myself at least, whenever I have to come up with a blend. And so and I and because I tell everybody this around me. Whenever they hear me justifying something with a blended reason, they're like, Oh, interesting. So that's a Pretty big bling. And I'm like, Oh yeah, we should just not do it. Never mind, take it all back. Um, because I'm giving you this huge list and instead of just saying we should do this because of X.

Right, like We should invest in this business because it's growing like like a weed. And um, if it wins, it's gonna be this big. That I can get behind. Um, and some angel investments do fall into that, but the act of angel investing as like a a job or a hobby is um is like it's more like when you describe playing basketball with your friends, like, Oh, it's great, I get to hang out with my friends, I get a good run in, I get exercise. You know, I'm I I you know, I it's I get outdoors. It's like you're giving this blend of reason uh for doing the the the the really fun thing you just really want to do and you're justifying it. But the reality is you just want to do it and your brain comes up with reasons afterwards. I think that's exactly right. Yeah. The only caveat I have to that is if you can go later stage deals, which now you can do with like a lot of the late stage uh angelist syndicates, or if you can structure debt.

Like if you can figure out a way where you start earning interest day one on a startup that actually has, you know, it's a little bit later stage and so it has some revenues, or you could, you know, get into a debt deal that's on some of its, you know, factoring of the invoices it has. Like there's you know, people always think of equity with startups, but lots of startups prefer debt. So do debt with like a equity warrant kicker on it and you can actually make money From day one and then have some equity upside. And that I think is interesting. But you know, throw the Y combinator term sheet out the window'cause that it's not gonna be on that. Right.

Um, and all that being said, I'm still gonna angel vest, uh, because it's'cause it is fun. Um And it's you know, it's a hobby that makes money. So okay, so let's do another one. Public market public market investing, also kinda dumb. Talk to me there. Well, this one I like to talk about a lot with big investors because if you look at the Forbes one hundred list, there is not one person on there who made their money from just investing in the stock market. And then this is where people are like, Cody, Warren Buffett, Carl Carl Icon. And it's like, I remember I was at Goldman in 2009 when do you remember Buffett did the deal? to invest a bunch of money in Goldman to stabilize it.

Yeah. Yeah. So um I was there then, and it was not a public market deal. More didn't go out to the street and buy a bunch of stock. He had a ton of warrants and options on top of it. It was a total backroom deal. And that's the only reason that he did it because he basically had this huge asymmetric risk, right? Where he had a bunch more upside than he had a downside. And that's the same thing with Icon, who tries to affect the outcome. So my point with people, especially these days with like game stop and all the madness and stock investing is like if you don't have an unfair advantage.

If you can't like write down why specifically you're gonna win instead of somebody else, you should be really careful speculating on stocks. Because the big boys don't really do it. Uh yeah. I have a cousin who runs a hedge fund. And uh when he told me kinda like all the different things that they have at their disposal, I was like oh okay, I'm

I'm coming into a gunfight with like a fingernail. Uh that's kind of like h how how uh lopsided it is. And I so you know, I so so that being said, again. I I think this it's important to say skin in the game here. Do you own any public equities? And uh so despite this, do you just do like Vanguard? Do you just say, Oh, here's 10 companies I believe in, I'm gonna do that, or what do you do? Yeah, I don't hold any individual stocks for specules.

I invest in indices, and I'm not saying this is right or I'm some guru. I'm just saying I don't think I'm smart enough to beat the market. And so I don't play games where I don't like the rules. I'd I'd rather write my own rules if at all possible. So I go, you know, equity indices, Vanguard, you know, whatever the case may be. I like Vanguard the best. Um, and then I go uh mutual funds on alternatives, private equity REITs, where you can actually have an unfair advantage. Um, but I don't speculate on any individual stock. Now I don't I mean, would I own Apple, Amazon, Facebook, whatever? Would I make a play on Twitter if I thought that might be fun? Yeah, maybe. Um, but I think there's so many easier ways to make money with private market investing and buying businesses. as opposed to having to deal with the irrationality of the crowds, right?

I mean Do fundamentals really matter in today's world, or is it Whoever has the best IR and doesn't have some crazy thing the CEO said or done. Right. Uh yeah, exactly. Uh have you ever heard this term a Keynesian beauty contest? No, what is that?

So uh named after I think the economist uh Keynes. Yeah b basically The the idea is that this is how the stock market works. So a Keynesian beauty contest is where you don't just uh it's in a normal beauty contest, you sort of just would assess uh, let's say the contestant that's that's on the stage. But in this case, uh the way the stock market works is it's not you assessing the true beauty of the thing. It's You guessing what other people We'll value it at.

Who are also guessing what other people will value it at. And so it sort of is this like extre you get these like really warped things happen because Everybody is not betting on the thing. They're betting on what the other people will do about the thing. And everybody knows that everybody's betting on what the other people will will value the thing at. And so you get these like really crazy um sort of out of whack things that that aren't, you know, value investing, uh And it's cool. No, I totally agree. Totally agree.

Let's do a couple more. So uh Buying real estate at auction. So a way to buy real estate at a discount. Talk to me about this one. I've never done this. Yeah, this one's fascinating. So for instance, let's use Texas. Well, Sam's in Texas, right? But um I like Texas because they do this thing where they actually sell real estate at auction. On the courthouse steps. of each municipality or city.

previous to it going on Zillow or Redfin or whatever the case may be. Like we've all seen those. Are these foreclosed for or is it foreclosed properties that you that you get there or what what type of properties are you? Yes. So foreclosed is really when it's listed on Zillow and Redfin. And so that's sort of like this. post auction step. That's when most of us see foreclosed properties, right? So you're like, oh no, I know how to buy foreclosed. I can go on redfin if it says foreclosed, I can buy it. Well, prior to that, you have auctions which actually are the bank auctions of bankrupt properties or foreclosed properties, but you get it before the street does. And then you can even front run that one step further, which is there's a list of properties that are going to go into bankruptcy or foreclosure. And the list in Texas you can look it up right now, it's called Roddy's List, R-O-D-D Y S. And on Ronnie's list, you buy this list, it's cheap, like a couple hundred bucks, and you can get the list of all the properties that are about to go foreclosed. And then you can door knock. You can go knock on the door because

Even though it sounds predatory, it's actually not because if you go knock on the door and tell this person, hey, I'll give you Two hundred thousand dollars. For the house that you are in foreclosure because you owe fifty. that actually gets them out of bank foreclosure and gives them the extra money that the bank uh was going to write off for them.

So this is buying on the auction chefs and I did it with a friend of mine, Aaron Amuchistagie, who's a stud at it. And uh and it's wild. Millions of dollars of transactions in cashier's checks happen same day on the courthouse steps. Why can't somebody bring that online? So why is nobody built basically the tech platform that says, great, we go to all the court steps and then we, you know, sort of flash list these things and you can sit at your lap. I can, you know, Sean, he's he likes this idea, he loves getting an edge. But he's kinda lazy and so he doesn't want to go do all this stuff. Um

Why doesn't somebody bring that online? Maybe like Roddy's list, I guess, is an example of that, bringing that part online. Um, what about after that? Well, I think you could there's a couple things that you need to do in real life. Like you have to validate that the house exists. Right. And the the couple keys to the actual auction game are that there's some parts that is just You gotta walk the walk, so

You could go and buy a house at Foreclosure and look at it on Google Maps, but Google Maps is an updated same day. So that house actually might have burned down last week or a month ago. And might know somebody that that's happened to. Or the house, if you look at it on Google Maps, you may not be able to tell. But the inside of the house Or, you know, the back end of the house is totally blown out. So you've got to kinda go walk the properties a little bit. is one part of it. Right. And then the other part is It's about debt and who owns the debt. And like one thing I've realized about wealth over time is um debt is just about everything. You should always look for even before you do a startup investment. Is there any debt on the company? Am I in a first lien? Does that, you know, do I have first access to money if this company gets it in some way? And it's the same with the house.

So a lot of these times They'll have a lean on the property that's like, this is weird. This is actually be an interesting business for you guys to look at. Like one of the biggest predators on uh low income home. uh owners is you know those faucets like the little water purification faucets? That you have in like your house.

Yeah. So um oftentimes those are put in houses by people that come door to door and try to sell them to people. And and they'd use it by doing a lean or applying debt to that person's mortgage. And so you could literally have a lien before you for like$1,500 that hasn't been paid. So it's now worth like$25,000 because the interest is 10 or 12%. And you don't even realize it. So you do have to yeah. So you do have to go actually figure out who owns the debt on the house. And you do that again through a list like Roddy's list that will tell you who owns the title to the house. But none of these are big problems. If somebody can list houses on Zillow, like Zillow now dies, sight unseen.

You could just have APIs in from Roddy's list. From the local county. uh location. You could probably have updated Google Maps locations and all three of those things triangulate to go online, I would imagine. I like it. Um

And uh Roddy's list is only Texas, or that's for only Texas, but there's tons of them. So usually you have to go to the county registrar. uh and they'll list how often they do rec how often do they do auctions. So on Texas, it's every Tuesday. In California depends by city and county. But One of the interesting things is like

The biggest buyers of homes in California, for instance, uh in in this downturn, in my opinion, is going to be the government because they've essentially made it where If this is not your primary residence. You cannot buy these four closed house homes at auction, which is a crazy change. But in two thousand eight. That's what happened. All the PE firms went to all of these little municipalities and scooped up all these houses and got them at pennies on the dollar. Um, the only thing that is true about this is you need cash. You got to pay cash.

So these are you know, you're coming with a hundred thousand dollars in cashier's checks to buy this house and and auction. and buy it an auction. Right. Yeah. Wow. I gotta just attend one of these to to see how it feels. Yeah. Um okay, we'll st we'll end on these last two. Um

You wrote uh how to collect cool people. I don't know what collect means in this case, but is that a typo or did you really mean how to collect cool people? I did mean that. Well, actually I wish Sam was here because he would laugh at this one, but um so one of the things that I I think is important for investors or VCs or anybody, um, I guess really who wants to be in the startup game is Like how do you make a connection with a human like you, right? So you know, we get to know each other on Twitter. I kinda retweet you a few times, but before the Social media game was there. Um what I how I actually met Sam originally.

I liked one of his articles that he wrote in The Hustle years ago. And um and I just did some research on Sam and was like, you know, I just think he's gonna he's gonna do some stuff. I don't know what, the hustle was small at the time, uh, but I I think I wanna know him and I want him in my Rolodex in some way so I could bother him about things. And um and so I found out what his favorite candy was, which is butterfingers. I don't know if it still is now. And so I shipped him this ludicrous size box of butterfingers, right? Just like a shit ton of butterfingers. To the point where like He didn't have a lot of choices except to like Call me back and say like

You know. What thanks. Um, and you know Sam really well. I mean, he's not always like Thanks and what the fuck. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so anyway, so and then I did that with another good friend of both of ours, Noah Kagan, except it was something about tacos at the time, because that's his little shtick. And I sent him sh a shirt. And so the whole point here, I guess, was kinda like. People these days will say, I'm sure they say it to you, Well, but Sean, you have this huge network. Of course you could raise a fund this way. Or, you know, Sam, of course you could do this. You have this giant rolledx of emails. You know, I didn't have any of that at the time. I was in finance, we couldn't even have social media. And I think those are all excuses. And instead you should just get kind of obsessed with the people that you think are interesting. Find ways to connect with them. And you can even do it in an old school manner, which might

Work more today than ever because DMs and social media are inundated. And uh what's your uh what's your next move? So if the butterfingers and the tacos are the pickup line, and that's great. Cause I and and this happens to me, and I I always feel like Well, you did break through the door, like I I see you and I hear you and I kinda check you out and I'm like okay, cool. Um, but honestly, like most of the time when that happens, I don't like become buddies with them. And I think that's what they want is like

I sent you that shirt. Like I sent you that thing because you said you said you like this and that so I sent it to you. I'm like, Yes, I I did appreciate it, but like I didn't necessarily go start like a bromance with you after that, so Uh, what is what do you do, let's say, with your follow through or how what did you do in those cases to like Turn that little like You know, funny, just sort of like hey

Love what you do. I'm a fan. Uh, here's a bunch of butterfingers. Uh, what'd you do to turn that into more of like a peer relationship after that? Or what what would you do? Yeah. Well, I think a couple of things. One, you gotta be doing cool stuff to hang around cool people. Rule number one, right? Right. So like the prerequisite. Exactly. Yeah. So like, you know, I don't care if I was backing up a dumpster truck. Actually that would be cool. I would probably be doing cool things if I did that for For Sean, but um but you know, you have to actually be out there creating thing to be around creators. So I think that's rule number one. And it's to have the lowest expectations humanly possible, right? Like I don't want anything from Sean. I didn't want anything from Noah. I just wanted them in my circle and then to ping them sporadically with random stuff. So I think I got

Noah, like one of the his investments that he did, I pinged him uh on it. Like he actually had a question about something else. I he put it on Twitter or something, and I sort of responded and said, Oh, I knew that person. So it was trying to serve them a bunch of different times. And then after doing that continuously, which is very similar to what I do with founders, when I want to invest in them, they'll eventually be like, Cody just, she kind of solves problems for me, or she does interesting things and makes my life easier in some way. And doing it without being too, you don't want to be a creep. You know, I think I do think when I first uh Engaged with Noah, and I can say this now because we're buds, but I think he was like, Is she hitting on me? Like, what's happening here? You know, does she like me? And I was like, No, dude, I'm married. Sorry. Um, so you know, but also just having no shame. Like, I don't have an ego. I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. Uh, and I think that's important. What what do you think? What would work for you? Would that work for you?

Uh yeah, that that I that's so so the thing you said that that works for me is First and foremost, the ultimate networking hack is be interesting. Okay, that sounds easy. What uh that sounds like okay, I can't do anything with that. Well, no, you actually can, which What is interesting to other people. is somebody who either knows stuff in an area that other people want to know that that thing. So if you're an expert of in a certain area, cannabis, DeFi, just be knee deep in it. And uh you don't have to be like a power player Just the knowledge is actually quite useful.

um the knowledge network or Be doing interesting things. So if I see you out there actually making shit happen in your field, and it doesn't have to be a big sp you know, you don't have to be doing space X like But you gotta be doing something. So what what doesn't work is the opposite. А ю річ ат. You ask me for something, you ask me for my most valuable thing, time.

Um Without offering me any th reason why I should give you that time. And maybe I will anyways,'cause I'm just in the mood, but like you didn't help yourself by like said making it easy for me. Uh and lastly You're basically saying, Hey, I'm kind of doing nothing. And I think if you talk to me, then I'll start to like do something or I'll know what to do. Yeah. And um and that's not fun. Like you know, so what what do I like? I like people who are doing interesting things.

And then um they reach out or I reach out, either way, doesn't matter. And in doing so, they are, like you said, a non needy person. So they're happy to give, they're happy to chat. Um and they have low expectations. Uh one of the weirdest things is when people start with like Hey

Big fan of what you do. I know you get a ton of messages, but uh Just wanted to put this on your radar. Uh cool. Great first message. Second message comes in like Nineteen hours later.

I guess you just don't even care. Um, you know, what was the point of of this anyways? So, you know, like um I really thought you were a good guy, but now I know the truth. It's like what's going on? Like you sort of pull a 180 and now you're really needy and desperate for some kind of response, and now you expect things of me that I never ever offered to you. Um, so so I would say like, you know, just do the opposite of those bad things. So be interesting, uh, don't expect anything in return. Uh, just give and give little bits. Don't even give too much because giving too much is actually creates an obligation also. So just keep it really simple, share interesting things with the person, share life updates if you're doing cool stuff. Um and be useful if if they're trying a project. Give them some feedback, help them out, reach share, spread the word.

Telefran, whatever. And uh let them know that you're kind of You know, in their corner. That's all that it takes really to like break through with most people. And then from there Um, you know, it's either gonna work or it's not, and you know, that that's fine. Uh not everybody's meant to be friends with everybody and that's okay.

Yeah. And don't ask to be uh mentored by anybody. That's my biggest pet beef. I'm like, I can barely mentor myself. You don't want me mentoring you. What are you talking about? Not to mention Talking about an obligation. It's like wait, have you looked up the definition? That means that I am supposed to lead you like on your path of purpose. We don't even know each other, man. Right. So yeah, I totally agree. Uh yeah, and somebody said this and I thought it was s totally spot on. Um

They said, you know, the easiest way if you really do want to mentor, uh first First things first, acknowledge that seeking a mentor is a advanced form of procrastination. Um You think that you need a mentor before you do the thing and in reality your mentor And all other people who succeed. Don't

use mentors as a prerequisite. Yeah, they find people along the way that help, but that's because they're just in furious motion and people turn and look who's splashing in this pool. And uh sometimes they go and they land a hand, um, and you know, when you need it. But uh they didn't sit around and say, Well, if I get that mentor, then I'm gonna do the things. So that's the first thing. It's a pr it's an advanced form of procrastination. And secondly, the way you actually do form a mentorship bond is You ask somebody for a specific uh situational piece of advice, so not just What should I do? But like Hey, I'm debating between these two options. How would you think about this? Or

Here's how I'm thinking about it. Would you poke holes in that? And then Then you follow up, which is where ninety five percent of people f fall off the cliff. They get advice and then they don't follow up with. Hey I listened to what you did or I

Did a variation of what you did, and here's what happened. Uh People actually love hearing that update. It's their d they are gathering data points of like what works, what doesn't. And it just feels good that like You close the loop. You get some closure on that that conversation. And then you just say, and now here's the next thing like that's that's going on. And you know, some people will drop off because they don't want to deal with you and some people will give again. And then you do that a third time. You say, Hey, here's what happened. Um and now

This unexpected thing is going on. Uh, and here's how I'm dealing with that. And by the third one, you guys will know either This works. Um, we have good rapport. We see the world in similar ways, I compliment each other. They kinda like my spunk and I like their experience and like it meshes and we should do this. Um Or you'll know by then that you know this is not the right fit. And so how do that's how you organically ease into having a mentor rather than

trying to put a label with a stranger and asking them to commit to something that they, you know, don't really necessarily want to do with you. Yeah. You nailed it. I also think and this is like probably not very PC, but I think it all becomes easier once you've achieved like a little bit of financial freedom. Like I think the less you're focused on making money every day and like uh you know being in that sort of employee lane and you can do interesting things with your money, that opens up a ton of opportunities. So I'm I'm pretty big on like It's hard to be ideologically free. It's hard to be time free. It's hard to really have any freedom if you don't have financial freedom. And like that all means something different to us. Like

You and I might think that that means X big dollar amount, whereas some people might be like, no, it's just enough to cover, you know, the money that I need to pay today. But That's like one thing I wish more people could think about is like How do you? How do you really get financial freedom so that you can do all the stuff you want to do?

Um, and then, you know, how do you get critical thinking freedom? where you can actually learn to ask the right questions. Here's the bit of Inside I've had uh The realization I've had recently

Because I worked for like a decade being like financial freedom is what I want. Um, and even more so, I was like, Okay, I wanna buy a house so that you know, I wanna I wanna have enough where I can get my mom a place because she'll have a better life that you know if we could do that and blah blah blah. And um So I thought f financial freedom. That's the that's kind of like that's my goal right now. I think a lot of people are like that.

And um And now uh that I kind of achieved a lot of those goals, I was like, Okay Uh, definitely my goals just got bit kinda bigger and uh you know, it's not like I and and it's true, I definitely do like carry myself a little bit differently and choose projects and people differently because I'm not like I'm not in I don't need you for the money, but um yeah, so I don't need to do this for the money. I could do many things. And money should probably come along with all of them. And I don't I don't need near term money necessarily. Um, so so there definitely has been some benefits, but here's the realization.

I used to think about financial freedom like If I get X dollars, then for me and my lifestyle, that's I'm financially free. And then Um for another person, they might have a different dollar amount. Which I think is kinda what you're saying.

And I thought that, you know, as recently as like a month ago. And then I met um A bunch of people who uh have a way smaller dollar amount, uh, but what they have actually also is way fewer demands and desires about what they want out of their life. Um, uh, you know, in a good way. Like they're happy as is, so they don't feel like, well, I need X, then I'm gonna be like Happier. I'm super happy right now.

And like, great, if I have more money, like I'll have other things, but I'm not gonna have more happiness. And so um And so what I realized was that financial freedom is actually just is it's an internal question. It is not about a dollar amount. Financial freedom is when you stop. Deciding

What to do based on money. uh that's when you have achieved financial freedom. And for some people it takes getting a large amount of money so that they can do that stop. For other people, it's wanting less shit and then they can stop because they have less demands for money. They're their their total number's lower. And for other people it's uh more like, you know, sort of Buddhist or monk like where they just sort of realize that it's actually uh in an internal attachment that they have to let go of. And then they are now free. Uh the freedom is is

Uh freedom from your own desire. Two have more money and therefore you choose things based on money uh rather than the kind of mathematical definition which is well, y like like There is also like a sort of technical definition, which is

You have enough money where even if you earn zero income, your investments will pay your lifestyle. Uh Yeah, and you won't be sort of dip. you know, you're not dipping into savings. Your savings are are increasing at a rate faster than your life burn. And there is that technical definition, but I realize I know many people who pass that technical definition and still aren't financially free. And it's because internally they have not actually freed themselves. From what they need, uh from this idea of like Well I gotta do like plant putting money first as the choice, uh as a choice of what to do, uh whether it's

people who penny pinch or people who choose projects. Based on a financial return as the like kind of core criteria. Yeah. Anyways, that's the sort of box. Uh, I think it makes a lot of sense. I think that you know above a certain level. Like I get a little obsessed just with everything that's going on economically in the world with people who again, like aren't maybe where you and I are. Like I I almost think financial freedom might have something to do with your skill staff. Like even if you lost all of your money today, or if I lost all of my money today, as long as I have put as much in the relationship deposit as I think I have of other humans that are doing interesting things in the world.

You and I are never gonna be homeless. Like impending catastrophic issue. Right? Because you can go to some of your friends and be like, Hey, I'm actually pretty good at copywriting. Don't you see, look at my Twitter account. Hey, I'm actually pretty good at building these businesses. I've sold a couple of them. So once you like get that skill stack, you're like, I'm fairly confident. Worst case scenario, I can go call up somebody and work for them. Um So I think there's some mixture of the dollar amount in your bank, what you need to pay, not having a ton of debt, and then are you competent enough as a human where

Somebody will always need your services. And and you know, and I think that paired with like can you reason and think for yourself is a pretty powerful combo. Yeah. Tot uh totally agree. That's I think that's great. So give us uh we should wrap up. Give us where where can people subscribe to the newsletter because it's actually really damn good. Um, and I don't say that Like uh actually I'll I'll say it.

I would probably say that anyways if somebody came on as guest and like oh you have a great newsletter. But I'll just kind of shout out that I actually believe it here. I'm not just being polite, uh, but you actually do a really great job. And you're like us, you don't shy away from the topic of money. Um you actually lean into it, and you say, Hey, you know like

A lot of people are interested in making money, and a lot of people don't know what's under the hood of these different business models or businesses. And so like let's lift the hood together and let's look at this how this engine works and how it what's good about it, what's bad about it, and how you might weight make it work. We do that as a podcast, you do that on your newsletter, and we're very like sympatico as far as that that goes. And so where can people find you and where can people find the newsletter so they go subscribe. Thanks for the shout. Yeah, ContrarinThinking.co is the newsletter. Uh, and then it's Cody Sanchez, Cody underscore scan Sanchez on Twitter. I think those are probably the two places I'm most Rocking and rolling. Um, and Twitter, man, I've really found that fascinating in the last six months. I think we've finally figured out how it works. So apparently I'm a little bit more a boomer than a millennial in some ways.

Yeah, there you go. Uh cool. And we'll link it in the description. So if you didn't remember those, just scroll down and click the links in the description to uh to find that of the podcast. Okay. Cody, this has been amazing. Thank you so much. Uh, I would like to have you back on at some point. Maybe we'll break down a couple of the businesses that you've either acquired or been looking at recently. And uh I think that'll be a lot of fun. But thank you for coming. I'm in. Thanks for all the questions. It's always fun brainstorming with you. Mm-hmm. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I can be what I want to I put my law in it like my day song On the road less travel never looking back

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