#493: The Random Show — Bitcoin Pros and Cons, 2021 Resolutions, Fave Books, Lucid Dreaming, Couples Therapy, and More

Well, hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. This is In addition, a special edition of The Random Show with my close friend Keves, well known investor, serial, entrepreneur, and all around good guy who's my friend. And we have an important preface, an important caveat, an important disclaimer before we get started. And here it is, provided from my lovely lawyers. Here we go. I am not an investment advisor, nor is Kevin Rose. All opinions are mine alone or his. There are risks involved in placing any investment in securities or in Bitcoin or in cryptocurrencies or in anything.

None of the information presented today. or really any time, since you might be listening to this any time, is intended to form the basis for any offer or recommendation or have any regard to the investment objectives, financial situation, or needs of any specific person. That includes you, my dear listener. So Everything you're gonna hear is for informational entertainment purposes only. And with that said. Please enjoy.

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Welcome to another episode of The Random Show. This is episode number seven thousand four hundred and ninety-six. Can we say this? It is. Good to see you, my friend.

You too, you too. It's been too long. When was the last time we actually saw each other in person? You are important. It would have been in Portland a hundred years ago because it was simultaneous with a I think it was Acro Love Festival where you had hundreds of people

Just smothering each other with body contact, one another with body contact. So that is a pre Covid activity. Yes. This is probably a year and a half ago, huh? It's been about that long. It's crazy. It's sad. It is. It's it's wild. And what would uh I'm Reassured to see as you have your

Your Japanese podcasting robe on and you seem to have new Eyeshadow are mascara, which really brings out your eyes. It's called it's called babies. Yeah.

Well, I like it. You're converging with the raccoon gods that you Upset so long ago by tossing one of their brethren downstairs. For people who want that security footage, you can search Kevin Rose Raccoon and all pop. You're determined to make that like what's on my grave, like what I'm best known for is the Rack Yotos. Your Wikipedia legacy. Well, I want it in the first paragraph. So we we shared a Google spreadsheet that you created beforehand of things we might talk about. I'm sure we'll talk about all sorts of stuff. Where do you want to start, man?

Yeah, I mean we can start with the bitcoin stuff'cause you were super excited about that, which is odd. 'Cause you're typically not like the biggest I I'd never seen you as like a hardcore crypto guy. I would definitely not self described as a hardcore crypto guy at all.

Yeah. I just happened to have this combination of ignorance and laziness, which led me to Hold on to The bitcoin that I had. Oh, so you're stoked. That's why. I'm like, why is Tim so excited about this?'Cause you've a boatload of money right now. Well, I mean I don't know if it's a boat I if if it's a boatload, but I've I've held on to it. I mean look, anyone who is holding just to put a timestamp in this, it's January eighth.

Twenty twenty one. Bitcoin, I believe for the first time ever, just crossed forty thousand dollars per Bitcoin. It was this morning, yeah. Yeah, so anyone who has ever bought Bitcoin to the unexamined or unexamining eye looks like a complete genius, right? But it's not possible that everyone bought bitcoin for the right reasons or through the right process. But nonetheless

Here we are, and it's exciting to watch, even if it may implode, and people are drawing comparisons and certainly pointing out the differences between two thousand seventeen And now where we saw this huge spike. Several years ago and then a consequent crash. Now I should have been a little bit several times now. It's happened several times, and I should also point out that I got into crypto in a meaningful way right before that crash in two thousand seventeen.

So if I had consequently sold all of it, I would have done so at a pretty massive loss. And I was like, Well, look, I'm playing with house money in the sense that I can afford to lose whatever I am putting into crypto. So I'll just hold on to it. And The

Premise. the premise that I used or the set of assumptions I used to get into crypto Ended up being Totally wrong. in a lot of ways. At least in the sense that I was investing in crypto as a

as a hedge specifically against say a huge drop in the stock market. Since I had a few different pending IPOs and so on. Uh with Uber IPO, basically. Yeah. Exactly. And so I made a a a bunch of very tenuous leaps of faith in my logic. to look for different ways to to hedge against the possibility that a market collapse could drag Uber down with it, right? So nothing stock

specific meaning nothing Uber specific in that case. And I mean you literally could have just hedged the market though at the same time. Yeah. I mean look, you could there you could I could have hedged the market I don't know much about shorting or hedging or anything like that. And Uh when I looked at it even in any cursory way, looking at the stuff that's allowed, no gray hat stuff. It seemed very expensive. To do it effectively.

And So I decided to become involved with crypto also because If you're in C certain social circles with certain very smart people, yourself included. Uh I mean you've you've played a lot in the crypto sandbox, so I wanna hear from you more than me.

It's easy to get intoxicated. It's easy to kinda walk into this reality distortion field where you're like You know, the world is going to Mad Max in the next forty eight hours and crypto will be all that survives. Um not saying that's your argument. But the the point I wanted to make is that If you look at the timeline

So two thousand Seventeen. Boom. Right. Tulip bulb craze of crypto at the time, sort of tanks, or at least uh Bitcoin.

And uh this time around with Covid. A lot of uh bitcoin bowls and so on, we're expecting that bitcoin would just would be inversely correlated with These crashes and it would shoot through the roof. But that's not what happened.

Right. Um not what happened with gold either. And I think what was underestimated Was How many people would need cash? Right. And when you need cash, you sell whatever you happen to have. And if uh If you have, for instance, as a lot of people got themselves into trouble by borrowing against assets. So they took out, say

Lines of credit. based on the value of their stocks and then when the stocks cratered, those all got called. And you know bankers and everyone else. Calling up. You know, Joe Smith, like hey Joe Smith, we want all our money right now.

And they had to sell anything they could sell that was liquid. And that would include a lot of crypto. So it took a few months for crypto to recover to pre-COVID. Whereas gold kinda took off immediately. After COVID. It did drop. In the very short term, like the kind of early March to early April, and then kind of pick back up. It wasn't a big run up though. We never saw kind of massive like the crypto like gains that we've seen with Bitcoin, right? Gold's gold's picked up a bit, but not not a ton. No. No, not that much. And I'm I'm referring to GLD specifically for people interested, but

Uh What are what are your thoughts right now on All this cryptomania. I mean, uh there are differences, huge differences between right now and two thousand seventeen, namely the entry of well, at least one of them is the entry of institutional investors. And yes, just a few months ago, Paul Tudor Jones and some other legends kind of dipping their toe in the water and beginning to make some allocations. in their portfolios.

uh fund portfolios, which is a big difference, not just personal. I believe that's true. Uh somebody can fact check me. But Uh, what do you make of all this? This is a terrain that you're Much more familiar with. Than I am. Well he he's m my take is that i with any new crazy wild idea.

become just a ton of skeptics, as as there should be. And when Bitcoin was was first launched and we were all playing around with the the very early wallets and I remember just buying coins and picking them up and I wasn't really early early, like I wasn't you know In the pennies. But I was buying them around ten, twelve dollars a coin, something like that.

And you know, it was it was the wild west. It was very difficult. To do anything. To the to buy crypto, to Um, you know, we were all setting up mining rigs back then. And trying to mine our own bitcoin and then eventually pools came out so you could join in with other people to do it more efficiently.

But this is fresh new technology that hadn't been hammered and beaten on. And so You know, any time there's something that is directly linked to Your finances Uh, it takes years or decades for people to get comfortable with a new emerging technology to where they'll

commit any serious capital to that technology. So I think largely what we're seeing here is Well, one, it's it's, you know, there's a lot of stimulus money hitting the market. There's a lot of people buying on Square Cash app. There's you know, it's it's much easier. To purchase Bitcoin. Than it has ever been. You know, it used to be

You have to go to some shady exchange somewhere. Hold up a picture of your driver's license with like Literally your like date written underneath it to make sure it was you like Shady stuff that I've been on some of the exchanges. My identification has since been hacked on many of these exchanges.

Thankfully I don't live at any of those addresses that I had those ideas I was holding up in front of the camera. But I do get text messages. Of people trying to fish me all the time. Like trying to like get me to like so creepy. It's so crazy. It happens at least twice a week. It's insane. 'Cause my my information's out there. So whatever. But Uh, the point being is that it was extremely difficult to purchase Bitcoin. And now, you know, PayPal came online.

Just a couple months ago. And is offering the ability to purchase Bitcoin and Ethereum directly inside of PayPal. Like it's just insane how easy this is now. So You're unlocking massive customer bases, like hundreds of millions of users. With PayPal.

You know, Square Cash is the I think the second or third largest buyer now of of Bitcoin. Um that's on the retail side. Right. This is just on the retail side. Yeah. So i that's not even talking about the institutional money going in, right? So You know, I work at True Ventures, venture capital firm, several billion dollars under management. We have positions in Bitcoin.

You know, we've been doing that for a while. So when you say you guys have positions in Bitcoin, that means you've invested in startups that focus on Bitcoin? No, that means we actually own Bitcoin. How does that work? As a venture capital fund, you're operating the private endowment? Yeah, I mean every fund is a little bit different. You know, in our specific case there we have allocated as part of our you know formation documents for the fund A certain percentage of the fund can be in cryptocurrency or cryptocurrency related companies.

So we can say I I'm just throwing out a random number here. I I I'd have to go look at the doc, see what the actual number is, but let's just say Ten, fifteen percent of the fund overall fund size. You know, we have six hundred million dollar plus fund that's you know, that you can only invest that much. from the specific fund into cryptocurrency. And so You know, if we're going to go into and do a purchase

Typically dollar cost average your way in over a couple of months and and and buy in an In a place that that has really strong security. Like we don't hold this ourselves. It's not at our office. Like you're using like there's there's big The financial houses like Fidelity and Coinbase Custody and others that now provide these types of services. You don't just have a bunch of hardware wallets sitting in your jacket pocket. Yeah, it's uh right here. Just at my house.

Um no I don't actually I don't I don't mess with that stuff anymore. I used to have wallets and I actually had a laptop that I would I bought specifically for cryptocurrency. And I wanted to keep it in cold storage, meaning that I back in the day when I was doing the craziest like coins that you've never heard of on these weird exchanges.

I I went out I bought a laptop, it was an Apple. Hooked it up to the internet, did all the software updates. Like just put the wallets on there, transfer the funds, and then immediately powered it down so that it wouldn't be online anywhere, hackable, and then put it in a safe. And like that was the way I kept my cryptocurrency.

It's crazy. Yeah. But yeah, so there's been enough time has gone on. This current run up, though, is just nuts. I mean Th the thing you have to do with all these things is just You w don't look at the the last three months,'cause it looks like a decent graph. And you're like, Oh, that looks reasonable. Maybe I should buy some. Like zoom up to the five yeah, ex yeah, zoom up to the five year view, the ten year view, that that's when you see really what's happening here. And it's It's not even like a hockey stick. It's like it's it's even more it's like insane how the run up has been. And so I get nervous.

When you see You know, it's it's always a a good tell around Well, in this case it was like the the virtual uh Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner. When Uncle Harry is asking you if they should be buying Bitcoin, like

That's when I like my my spidey sense tingles a little bit and be like, Huh. Everybody wants this now, you know, and there's it's just If if I were going to enter the market now I would do it. In a way that is you pick the dollar amount, let's say it's a thousand dollars, and this is not investment advice. I'm just telling you what I would do.

pick a thousand dollars, I would say, okay, I want to own Bitcoin. I believe in the future of Bitcoin. I think this isn't going away, which is all those things are true, and that they are things that I believe. Uh it's a proven technology now. Let's take that thousand dollars and invest it over six months. And so just divide it up. Buy six and then do those uh say the first of every month and just go in, no doesn't matter what the price is, that you don't care. You just buy that set amount, and that way, you know, at least you're averaging your way in over over six months. How do you personally think about

Crypto. for yourself as part of your portfolio or percentage of your total I mean you're kind of famous for Telling tell not famous. Well, you're famous to me for telling me when I should buy stuff and then not telling me when you've sold stuff. Which I appreciate which I appreciate.

Uh I love that call, by the way. You're like, are you still holding this? I'm like, no, I sold it for like a 10X like six months ago, and you're like, I'm down. Or something bad will happen and you'll you'll have been screwed by the fact that we didn't talk. Yep, that happens with some fair frequency. But uh what is uh what What is your current thinking? In terms of crypto, are you are you steering clear? Do you s do you s do you still have a certain position? Is it an investment for you? Is it an an insurance policy for you? Some people have drawn that distinction just sort of philosophically as looking at cryptocurrency as a

Insurance policy. I think that over time. As Well, a a few things. One, let's just talk about the ecosystem in general. I think that ninety nine percent still today of the coins that you see on the market out there are just garbage. I think a lot of them

And it's hard for them really to go away. The just the volumes of uh the volume and trades that happen just decrease over time, but they still have these you know, somewhat impressive looking market caps. Just sitting out there very stagnant developers kind of drop off. It's just kind of like they're they're left for dead, but they're still around.

So there's a lot of that. Lot of interesting in innovation happening in the kind of decentralized finance space. So they call it like DeFi. It's mostly happening on an Ethereum. There's a handful of projects where I say that's really interesting. It's almost like an angel investment now. I want to hold some of that.

But with the understanding that this could go to ten percent of the value it is today. And so Extremely high risk. But You know, still has the ability to

to have a a a fifty X upside, right? So or at least a twenty or thirty X upside. If you just look at the market cap of of Bitcoin today. There's not another twenty or thirty X anytime soon coming to coming to Bitcoin. It's just Too big, right? Like the market cap is just too large. You'd be Why do you now what how do you come to that conclusion? Well, I mean

First of all, th there's a few ways you can do it. I think that you had just have to look at the market cap in general, which I don't have in front of me right now, but I can I can type it in. The other thing is just look at the proxies for this. So like What is the market cap of gold, right? Of all gold out there, and it's in the trillions. Uh Let me see here.

If uh Uh I did this the other day. So Bitcoin right now, the market cap is Eighty two point four nine billion. So

You know. Where would we be at if that's a a a ten X from now? Like I mean that's just insanity. That's that's I I can't imagine that happening anytime soon. It would just be No, that's insane because of the comparables that you might put next to it. I mean Apple is worth two trillion. Right. And so, you know, you just kinda have to and I know it's not the same in that

We're not talking about corporations here with with you know cash flows and P E's and things that we would typically use to Туапані та із на. The closest proxy that I think most people draw the comparison to is to just gold. You know, what

What is how much gold has been mine, how much is do we believe there's there in the in the earth, what are people holding for an investment? how much of it is actually being worn. Like there's a lot of other ways. So there is a lot of potential upside in in in Bitcoin, but I don't think you know Formi I it's not that I wouldn't hold it, I I would definitely hold it.

I think it's gonna be a rocky, bumpy ride given the run up that's had recently. Like it's been forever. Like this has always been the case of Bitcoin. It's been very Bumpy, but the new low is higher than the last low. And then just continues to kind of like it wouldn't surprise me to see this drop down to Twenty five or thirty again. But I don't think it's gonna get back to ten.

Yeah, there's just too many institutional buyers coming in. So I I like it because there are a lot of governments the US included are probably one of the biggest offenders just printing money right now. It's really hard to understand what the value of a dollar is or what it will be in the future. This is

A fixed number of coins forever that will never change. It's universally accepted, you know, m even more so Every month all over the world. So It's it's kind of a a global reserve currency that I I'm comfortable with. So I I do like it for that.

Um I think there's a lot of new interesting projects that are probably have more upside. That also require more due diligence and expertise, right? More attention to detail. So let's if we talk about Bitcoin, just to to continue on this thread. It's currently at let's just call it forty thousand dollars of bitcoin. And You were saying, Well, it it's hard to see a twenty X upside if we

look at proxies or comparisons to gold, or certainly if we draw comparisons to Apple, although that's a little bit Categorically. I guess a a different comparison, but If we're looking at the At certain

trends or growth trends that have been accelerated Thanks to or due to Covid, right? If we look at say Amazon. Or Shopify. or Peloton, you know, companies that we're both quite familiar with and or investors in. A lot has been accelerated and the

The growth trajectory of the graph. has changed dramatically for for a lot of companies, SaaS companies, right, adoption of remote work, et cetera. Could someone make an argument that that is why in part at least we are seeing this adoption of

Bitcoin. on some level reasonable or I I guess in your mind when you're thinking of how much this price can be explained. via factors, external happenings, storming the capital, et cetera. certainly, you know, MMT and all this kind of stuff.

versus just pure mania, right? Because the the Bitcoin bulls will will sort of Layout. uh often regurgitated, but sometimes cogent arguments f for why this is explainable and reasonable. Uh and then the Bears will say

Here's the The tulip bulb craze of Such and such a year and this is exactly what's happening. It's just pure mania There's nothing to it besides greed and human psychology run amok.

Where do you fall uh in in thinking about explaining the price because if you look at institutional adoption, we're still super early in institute super early in institutional adoption. And Uh by institutional, I mean w there are wide ranges of institutions And certainly I think at the more conservative end, if we're talking about endowments and pension funds and so on, it's super early, not to mention sovereign wealth funds and so on, right? The really like gigantic

So Yeah, what do you think? I mean it From an institutional adoption Perspective, it's super, super early. That does not mean, though, that the tiny amount of adoption up to this point, plus Square, plus PayPal, Have you.

organically produced Forty thousand dollar per bitcoin prices. Right. Um that's a that's a lot of word cell that I just threw at your face via Zoom. So maybe you can speak to that. Well I I think that it is really hard. If you look at the people that are actually looking at the blockchain and watching

Where assets are moving. Some promising and also some really scary things start to emerge. And so I I think the the promising side is Just the average consumer now has access to purchases with the just a couple of clicks and Apple Pay and everything else. Like that's the ease of purchase is gone.

As is as we mentioned earlier, it's just it's it's simple now. So that has unlocked certainly a lot of demand, especially around a hype cycle. We know about the institutional side. I agree with you that it's very early days there and there's been several proposals and there are new ones out there. For a bitcoin ETF.

I think that happens. And we start seeing these appear in people's four one K accounts and things just go bonkers. The scary side of things is some of the price manipulation that's going on. And so You know, there

Are ways to manipulate the price. This is Well I'll bring it up in in with the caveat that It's being talked about on the internet, so I'm bringing it up here. It is not my view that this is happening, but it is being talked on the internet, so it's worth mentioning.

So I say that from a news perspective, not from an accusatory uh perspective. And that is that There is preamble for Kevin Ross. I'm trying to say that because I don't want them to come after me and like just sue the shit out of me, basically. So So there's there's a there's a stable coin out there. When I mean stable coin for th those people that don't know

There are a bunch of coins out there that you can hold as cryptocurrency that are pegged to an asset, like a fiat asset that we know, which like say the US dollar. So if you hold USDC is what it's called the coin.

When you hold one of those coins, it is worth one dollar and that never changes, just pegged at that price. And so there are a bunch of these. And one of the larger ones is called Tether. And so Tether is We don't have well here's the thing. There's been some analysis of

Some of these transactions and Tether If you can imagine if you control and it is centralized If you control The way the tether is supposed to work is this. If you send Tether a thousand dollars, they issue you a thousand dollars worth of Tether coins, right?

That's makes sense. If you go to redeem them, they give you back the thousand dollars, right? And so th it kind of grew. And well, I shouldn't say kinda grew, it's massive now. And uh let me ask a novice question. What is the use case for that? Why would someone do that? They want a mobile They want stability. They want stability. Yeah. So imagine you're sending uh your aunt uh in Costa Rica a hundred dollars and you want to make sure a hundred dollars gets there.

Not ninety two dollars because Bitcoin dropped, you know, or or maybe she'd like if it went up, but you know, it's like it it's you need the stability and it can also be used for a whole slew of other things. They do lending with it, where you can earn interest on it. That's what a lot of the decentralized finance comes from. Anyway, so uh Tethercoin, for example, is is one of the first ones, one of the first stablecoins And it has a twenty three point nine three billion dollar market cap. Now there Are currently

some ongoing investigations into What's going on behind the scenes at Tether, because there are some allegations. That they're just issuing new tether and buying Bitcoin. Without there being the reserve USD to actually back it up.

So There's been a handful of articles. You can search Tether whatever you want to call it, like scandal or whatever you may be into Google News. And you'll see that people are looking at this and saying, Huh. And and there's several organizations, like government organizations that are looking at this and they're saying, Okay

We need to peer inside here and make sure everything is kosher. Because if it's not, they could be just propping up the Bitcoin market and buying Bitcoin with fake minted tether. Stable coins, and if that's the case. And that comes out.

That's gonna be a shit show for a few days. It's the best way I could describe it. Do you think Probably uh Worth description.

The shit show. Uh do think not knowing anything about it, that they have sufficient volume Two Prop up, so to speak, the bitcoin price.

Or to Inflate it. Well, I mean, just to give you s a sense, in the last twenty four hours they've done a hundred and fourteen point three one billion in volume. It's heavily used on on some exchanges. Some exchanges won't touch it. There there's some the there's some changes that you won't even you can't even purchase together if you wanted to.

Um so it is the one Peace. that I look at and I just say, Ah gosh, I don't like where this is trending and some of the people that are looking into this. This could really put a big black eye on the market. It doesn't mean that Bitcoin is a fraud. It has nothing to do with Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a legitimate technology that works well. It's well secured. It's been hammered on. Like there's Right. This doesn't mean Bitcoin goes away, but it does mean That if there's spook the spook the hell out of lots of people. It spooks the hell of a lot of people and it also shuts down ETF talks and all those other things, because a lot of the reasons why these ETFs for big Bitcoin aren't being approved is because of these claims.

of this type of market manipulation. So It's uh But to to your earlier ask around like what do you how do you think of this when it comes to portfolio construction? And again. I'm a venture capitalist, not a registered investment advisor. This is not a financial advice.

But for me personally, I think informational purposes only. This is informational and entertainment purposes only. Oh you bastard. You rat bastard. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show.

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I would say for me personally, I think okay, maybe up to five percent of my overall Portfolio. And consider it super high risk. But I liked your strategy, Tim. It's like you it's the kind of one you have to take with cryptocurrency. If this gets cut in half or cut in three quarters.

You just have to say, huh? Okay, bad day, bad week, bad month. And just ride it out for the next ten years because you know in ten years it will bounce back and the returns were gonna look better than ever. So You know, that's kinda how you have to play it. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, and it's a it's a test of conviction and process also. Right. In the sense that Uh I've been talking to You know, friends and like you, sort of the kind of Uncle Harry equivalents are like I wanna put money into Bitcoin and Ethereum and I'm and I'm like

Can you tell me what Bitcoin is and They And

The Sort of observation I've made because usually Is your uncle actually Harry? I don't want to throw this guy under the bus. Okay, good up. Okay, so so okay, so Uncle Harry usually will have a story that is something like this. My friend Bob has invested in crypto and over the last

Seven months he's made Let's just make up a number. You know, five hundred thousand dollars. And my question is always Did he sell? All of his own.

Bitcoin and pull out five hundred thousand dollars. And the answer is no. And my my follow up to that is well It all looks good on paper, but If it's not enough to just buy something that is going up in value. Unless you believe it's gonna go up in value indefinitely, you also have to have a plan for if and when you are going to sell that asset and redeem. Now some

pure believer or true believers would say you never sell bitcoin. And that's one option. But unless unless you have deliberately conscientiously decided that and you have that as a bulletproof, emotion proof strategy, you sure as hell better have a plan. for if and when you are going to redeem to some type of fiat and If you don't have a defined time horizon, the likelihood of you losing money because you sell in a panic when it plummets is pretty goddam high.

Um that's why I like the lower percentage points of your overall portfolio because it has to be money that doesn't matter. So you can hold it for the long term if you want to do hold it for the next twenty years. But I guess I what you're saying is it does get to meaningful money at some point, right? Because naturally If it if it does five X from here or ten X from here. then it's gonna be no longer five percent of your portfolio, right? So Yeah, in that case, like

I would force myself to every year Or every other year. Just rebalance. So like do you do you actually do that though? Because there are a hundred percent You do. I did it with Peloton.

Okay. All right. So you so now you would do that. regardless of the the duration of holding that investment or do you wait for long long term cap gains, right? I mean like is there I would wait for long term cap gains unless it is something just absolute bonkers.

So if it's if it's absolute bonkers and you're just like I mean Look at Tesla right now. Just like look at that chart. Click on the five year. And and and your Apple stocks app. It it's it's just like the y you're like how is it not bending over? It feels like fall it should fall backwards and so high. Like it's it's it's ridiculous. And and so you i if you I'm if I'm holding short term capital there, I'll just say it's just like it's just like I just wanna point out that you're also you are also a lover of Tesla.

Products, right? So like you're not saying this is as a Tesla hater. You love their stuff. I have I have listen, I have two Teslas. They're fantastic vehicles. They're they're my favorite. I I have a truck on order. I can't wait to get that thing. And yeah. When it's a straight line. Yeah.

Yeah, so it's you know, it's it's just one of those things where y i i if it is getting an outsized percentage of your portfolio, then it just it's absolutely smart to And I kinda have this thing where I mean we talked about I think you and I is traded some text on this, but we talk about just like

your overall mixture of of assets in everything that you have kind of put together. Like what does your allocations for multiple things look like? And I'm Мостів майста It's just fully diversified, set it and forget it forever. Like wealth front style.

Just put it in there and have it be fully diversified and safe. And then I have a category That is like let's just call it twenty five percent of my overall assets, that'll say These are five X capable stocks. Or greater.

And those I know they're super risky. Well Somewhat risky and they have real cash flow and all that. But I'm I'm going to invest in those and I would put Like you know Pelotons in that kind of camp.

Some of the more riskier stuff like the Neos, like the the Chinese Tesla. you know, a few other things that I've bought over the last few couple years. So You know, it's but then then always going and pruning and readjusting and saying, Oh, a actually my five X stocks are now forty percent of my portfolio. Let's trim that back to twenty five. Yeah, I appreciated your strong buy recommendation on Pornhub. That was uh that was genius. Well you're that you're your co owner now, which is odd, but it's it's your thing. The acro yoga. I'm on the team. I'm on the team tab.

Free premium for the next two months. Use code Tim Tim. Tim, Tim, Kev, Kev. I really hope they make that code. That would be fantastic. That is a joke, people. Joke joke. Joke joke Kev Kev. Uh Now

I I had a follow to that. Oh, the follow up was really more a commentary because I I think some people will be very interested in this conversation and others will will find it. Uh inside baseball or just Th they'll think that it's Kind of uh

Rarified air. Investment talk and I would On on one level agree with that and on one. level disagree with it because

We're sitting here at the beginning of twenty twenty one. Twenty twenty Has been Such a Fascinating and punishing. laboratory for looking at the consequences of good and bad decisions.

And There are many places where it's difficult in many ways to quantify Those Upsides and downsides and risks.

Certainly with Covid with certain information available, other information unavailable or pending, it it's been challenging, but one of the playing fields in which you can look at decision making as sort of a a microcosm of the macro, right? Like you get to see how

Decision making that transcends Investing. Shows itself. With Stocks, crypto, whatever it might be, right? In other words

If you're are able to observe and hone your decision making. with even very small investments, I believe that that transfers into if you're if you're self aware that can transfer into better decision making in other areas, right? Because we're all Investors of

Time, energy. Capital. And You can choose to become better at those things. Or you can remain blissfully unaware.

But one way or another you are making decisions about investment every day. So that's that's another reason why I've paid attention to this. a lot in the last year. I mean I think there have been some Incredible opportunities also.

in in the last twelve months. But Uh more than that. It's just a lens through which you can look at How rational. you are, how subject to emotional swings and corresponding bad decisions you are. And it tells you a lot about how you might

make decisions or more concretely make rules for yourself in twenty twenty one. So can you give me an example of that? Like I'm really curious. Like outside of finance, how have you applied this to other areas of your life? Well uh so for instance in the in twenty twenty one of the biggest lessons uh or takeaways that I had for myself in investing that I'll talk about.

How I would Apply that. Is that This is gonna sound so rudimentary. But you know, I I've I've been very lucky and also I think

very good at Picking things to invest in. Over time. Right, if you just look at the last Ten years, twelve years.

Net net. things have worked out pretty well. And there are a lot of circumstances, there are certain trends that I accidentally took advantage of, some that I deliberately took advantage of, but blah blah blah blah blah. I'm pretty good at Placing bets. I am very weak, I would say, on exit strategy. And knowing when to get out of positions.

And This past year I realized that Three years. looking at a three year time horizon for anything publicly traded seems to be a incredibly comfortable for me.

In the sense that I can't predict what things are gonna do. What, what companies are gonna do what in the next three months, six months. I've no fucking idea. No idea. Right. I mean, there are just so many curveballs that can be served to any company. Five years? I mean, jeez, five years. Now we're talking about like Google starting to usurp. Yahoo, right? I mean, that's like a long enough period of time, especially with exponentially developing technologies, that five years is very hard to call.

But like three years if I'm looking at certain types of companies That I feel like I understand pretty well. Amazon Shopify. uh would be two examples. I think Spotify also. Um I'm investors in all of those.

For and again, this is not investment advice. I don't know how many times we have to say this to cover our asses, but this is uh, you know, your mileage may vary and I only invest in things that I feel like I I really, really understand deeply. Yeah. And I'm the same way. Yeah, so three years I'm looking at certain trends. I have An audience, fortunately, and a lot of friends who are kind of the tip of the spear with early adoption. Not all of those things work out.

But when you see then it begin to kinda hop. Like hop the fence from say my friends or my audience to people one degree removed, I'm like, okay. That That I think is worth paying a lot of attention to the

So that has that has been a a new rule that I've established for myself specifically for uh publicly traded equities. And Uh the way that that's applied to My life more broadly and we're gonna we're gonna don't worry folks, we're gonna get to other points besides

crypto and investing. is looking at You know, doing a full review of twenty twenty and then looking forward to twenty twenty one. Thinking out three years as opposed to just twenty twenty one. And thinking.

Uh about What types of sort of regularly occurring practices I wanna have and I can give some examples when we get into it. over a three year period is is really calming for me.

I think it's a good thing. Yeah, like ten years. Ten years is kinda like, I don't know, man. I mean, there's just so much that could change. I mean, who knows if you know Califor you know, if like Texas is gonna secede along like maybe Texas and Montreal will become sister cities and you know, or whatever sister provinces and they'll secede from the nation. I'm I'm I'm being uh Uh, you know, a bit ridiculous with that. But f like ten years is a long, long time and a lot can happen. Three years, I I just find that to be a very calm

place for me when it comes to planning now. But also thinking about personal development and uh building a family and so on and so forth. So it's kinda like if you were to paddle out. in the ocean at like a surf break, right? You would you you when you first paddle out, let's just say it's a beach break for simplicity, like you're gonna have to get through these these first sets of waves.

And then you're gonna have some calm and then you're gonna get to like the outer breakers and you're gonna be in the impact zone again. And it's gonna be exciting, but it's also can be really stressful. And I find like three years for me is just kind of comfortably In between those two. Yeah. I like what you said about also uh doing these kind of Thematic investing.

Where you say, Okay, I don't know I I like you just you just named off the exact same companies that I pay attention to around e commerce because like Obviously we know e commerce is is well, it's more so online these days than ever, but It's still a fraction of in person commerce, right? So

If if we believe that trend is going to continue, which it will You know, who are the players in that space. And and so rather than say, Well, actually I think it's gonna be Amazon and not Shopify. Or square, you know, it's like I I just would rather own the entire Bucket, right? So You know, I I go in

Get Amazon, Shopify, Square, um, PayPal. And I think that pretty much covers You know, the future of payments. When I think about like mobile payments. And and just happening on your phone and eventually when Coinbase goes public, I'll probably pick some of that up as well. But like Just having that and and sitting on those

And then is watching and and kind of as leaders start to emerge. kind of dollar cost average in a little bit more to get a little bit more upside in the in the clear winners if there are going to be any And that's that's kind of what what I've done Uh historically that's that's proved to be pretty Successful.

Yeah, and it's you know, we're talking about kind of pickaxes and shovels. Right. I mean in the sense that A lot of these companies, not all of them, uh, but a lot of these companies offer services that other companies capitalize on or other creators. And

were based on different scenarios related to Covid. So it's like okay, let's say Covid like Wave a magic wand it gets solved tomorrow. But we were Decimated, behaviors changed.

growth trajectory's changed for Let's just call it the severely for like six to twelve months. Okay, what does that look like for an Amazon? What does that look like for Shopify? Okay. And then let's say Covid continues Let's say there's a new strain.

And A B and C happens and rather than best case, it's it's it's certainly Maybe not worst case, but a terrible case. What does that look like for these various companies? Okay. And just came to the conclusion personally That

In most scenarios you could play out as an exercise. These companies still seem to do well. And they can't but you also have to play out the other side too, right? Like w what what happens once the vaccine happens. And COVID subsides. This is why I'm not

holding Zoom right now. And Zoom may be a great it's a great company, great product. We're using it right now. But it's like it's I I just don't see You know, when people start to return to work, what gets hit the hardest? And and so that's that's part of the reason why I mean I missed out on a ton of upside with the climb of and rise of Zoom, but It doesn't pass that

post vaccine test. I wanna I wanna have to believe in my heart of hearts that I will close my eyes and hold this thing for five years. And be before doing an investment. Otherwise it's just it's just gambling at that point. Yeah, well I mean it it it depends on how you define your time horizon and if you have the skills And the emotional control or stoicism to be able to stick to your plan. Right. So for me

One of the reasons I came to three years is again, five years I just don't have confidence that I can look into the crystal ball and understand where technology is gonna be in five years. There are companies I expect will still be around. Certainly. But let's just take in the case of Spotify, for instance. You know, I looked at Spotify. really closely and I'm on Spotify. Like I understand the technology. I use the product. I saw them investing incredibly heavily in

non-music audio content. And uh is certainly at the top of that list in terms of their capital expenditures. Uh would be podcasts. And you have Rogan, you've got all these different folks. And

Four Spotify compared to say Amazon. There are people who would argue that podcasts are An existential priority. Right, like they have to.

really heavily invest. and be the A player high bidder. For uh a lot of this core talent and these teams who can create content because they're economic model is in some

Uh is in some respect. dependent on the improved margins through non-music audio, right? Amazon sells everything, right? Amazon sells a million things. And Amazon music and uh you know the team who's on podcasts uh with Amazon is a f is a fantastic team. uh but within Amazon itself it's hard for me to m to imagine that that has the same level of urgency pr and priority that It would have for

Spotify just given the range of options. So for me, but what about Apple? Yeah, Apple's huge. But Apple also is, I think Apple's amazing. They have by far the most market share right now. Yeah.

And they're also They have I I would I would expect like certain constraints, right? Like I don't think they're going to pursue anything incorporating advertising models, at least not in the short term, right? They just haven't had a lot of luck with that. They don't seem inclined to pursue it. Also again, just because the what is the lion's share of Apple revenue? I have to imagine it's hardware and Apple Care and so on. I mean the The sort of incremental

Revenue add. is pretty nominal when it is compared to say Spotify, who is like absolutely has to make this work. So for me I'm like, all right. Apple Amazon

are gonna be really deliberate. They're not gonna rush. They have endless Powder in the keg. Right. Like they just have once they find things that work, they can they can make them ubiquitous.

Yeah. I think that's gonna take Time. Is it gonna happen in one year? Maybe but I think. Pretty unlikely.

Which is why I think Spotify will continue, I mean, if I had to guess, to invest very heavily in trying to solidify their position as the go to Platform. for sort of talent and content creation within The

kind of predefined parameters of non music audio. And So for that reason, this is not the only reason, but for that reason Also looking at potential upside, right? I mean in the sense that like

If you want Amazon to double What needs to happen for that to for that to happen, right? Uh and then if you look at Spotify, for Spotify to double what might need to happen in order for that to be uh the reward that the market and retail investors

uh sort of bestow upon it. And The answer is I I mean I feel like a lot less needs to happen. For Spotify.

Right. I I'm not saying Spotify would ever do this, but like if Spotify were just to redomicile and avoid all of these various problems that they have with their current Uh not that they would do that, but like certainly there are steps they could take if they needed to that would dramatically change their financials.

And again, what the hell do I know, right? Like I'm not an analyst, but Uh yeah, but this is your world though. I mean podcasting is like that's your DNA. So I feel like you would know a lot when it comes to that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I just I s and I also see and you and I have texted about this Where People

you wouldn't have expected to use Spotify are now using Spotify. Yeah. Right. And it's made that hop over the fence. In the United States, in Europe. The behaviors are very different. uh in Spanish speaking countries and regions

Spotify is extremely dominant, it would appear, based on polling my own audience. And There's just a lot of room there. There's a lot of room to grow, I think. Yeah, I agree with that. Like I I think Spotify is interesting from that standpoint. It is certainly It's a really crappy razor thin margin business on the music side. Any time they can get you

Anywhere w away from one of the major labels, they're making money. Right,'cause you're pay you're paying that fifteen dollars a month or whatever is, twelve dollars a month. Um, I just found out they have a uh I downgraded from the family plan to the duo plan, which is just for two people. So my wife and I just use the duo plan and save my bucks myself three bucks a month. Well done. Thank you, Kevin. Thank you. Um anyway, yeah, so it's it's a great product, too. I I love the technology out of it. I think that they have invested heavily on

the kind of AI machine learning side of things to get recommendations better than anyone has, which is So key for music discovery. I'm I'm I'm a fan on that front as well. Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say one more thing on the finance side as well. We should close off finance and and move on to that, because I know we had a few more topics.

Yes. I spent A crap ton of time. researching and doing my due diligence on the various uh financial applications for tracking finances. So um I just wanted to share this with people because I let my work

uh benefit you in some way. So I you know I I feel that what what I've done is is I I you know all of us or most of us we dabble on a bunch of things, whether it be cryptocurrency or a little bit of like, you know, e trade or whatever your brokerage is, or Wellfront, or you know, you have a little bit of stuff here, you have uh maybe you may have a home or not, or a car payment or not. And I want a universal dashboard to bring all that stuff together. It's like one place where you can see holistically what's going on with all of your finances everywhere, credit cards, all that stuff. And I've tried all of the stuff out there.

Real quick. Quick and sucks. It's horrible. It doesn't work with like half the crap out there. It won't tie to wealth front, it won't tie to a bunch of stuff. Um it's just horrible. So avoid that at all costs, even though that's like the old school one that sounds like oh maybe maybe Quicken's better now. It's not better. It sucks. They now I I have this theory that a bunch of the quicken engineers got together and were like Yeah, this place kinda sucks, but let's go create a new product. So quicken.

Came out with a new product. That is actually quite good. It it's it says it's called Simplify. So it's simplify money dot com S I M P L I F I. You can just google it. Don't Like trying to spell that.

Um anyway, Simplify uh from it's by the makers of Quicken. So I it is actually a fantastic product. And it's somehow competing against Quicken, their own product, which is very weird. I think what happened is As with any old piece of software. You've got an old school audience that's been baked in for decades that if you change any user interface element, they go apeshit and they freak out on you, right? Like that's the case with why all these software packages like Word and Excel and all these others, they just are turn turn into bloatware. You know, you look at them and you're like, Why so many icons? And it's because people will complain if you remove anything.

It's always hard to take features out. Um so This is just a really streamlined beautiful. It's like three bucks a month. It's fantastic. Now If you don't like this one thing I do like about this, I'll just tell you one of the features I thought was really cool and I used this uh for over the holidays.

You know how like you you go and you return something like you got a sweater, you return it, but you like never know if it really hits your account again. You don't pay attention, like maybe came there's a way to say I return this and notify me when I get the credit back or not if the credit doesn't come back. I guess some like cool little features like that. So anyway, I was pretty impressed with it. It does link with a lot of the stuff. Very confusing why it links with a lot of the places that Quick and doesn't, even though they're the same company. But anyway. That's that. I think personal capital though is the best one that's out there.

Have you used personal capital before? Um I don't use them on the investing side. Like I don't Put my money with them because they also have like an investing thing. I use Wellfront for that. But personal capital is in terms of the interface, the holistic interface to bring together all the accounts. It's completely free. You don't have to spend any money on it. And it kind of brings everything into one dashboard for you.

So anyway, I and I've looked at like ten others that I won't even bore you with, but but those are my my picks for the show. Sweet. What what now you are How would I put it? You have a financial dashboard fetish.

Like some people like tentacle porn, some people like Japanese Japanese coffee, which you also like, but you have a financial dashboard fetish. So what I'm curious about is Do you just does it just tickle your balls and you get a little feeling in your butterfly? In your I wish I'm having wine. It makes you really happy to look at this. Is it just like a Zen garden for you? Or do you actually

learn anything? Does it inform your decisions? Has it changed how you behave in any way? It it has, because what it does is it does a pretty good job at kind of categorizing Everything that's going on in my life. And so It has a beautiful cash flow feature where I can see I've spent this much. This was my budget. And this is how much income I have coming in. So I like to kind of track that and watch the trends over time.

And Overall net worth is cool because it like lets you tie in your house in there. Let's put your cars in there, like anything else that you may have, any jewelry, anything And you can kind of like watch as certain things appreciate or they don't and they go down. It's it's just like I like the idea of

being able to pull all this stuff together into like one interface because If you think about okay, now I gotta go log into Coinbase and now I gotta go log into Wellfront, and now I gotta go log into my bank to see my checking account. Oh, and I have a credit card over at Chase and I have an Apple Pay card and like There's a bunch of stuff to check, you know? And and that means in in terms of transaction uh transactions as well. I mean, I caught some fraud on these is w and it alerted me to things where I was like, I didn't buy that and I went and canceled a card. So just having a way that I can go and every couple days

Just see that and just do a quick gut check. Like is everything sane here? It it's nice and there's no I don't have to log into multiple places and it's it's free. So I don't know, it's cool. So you avoid logging into multiple places by giving all of your login information to one entity, or is there some type of auth that allows you to circumvent that like ulcer producing centralization, which would make me nervous. Yeah. So Plad is it powers all of this on the back end. So Plaid is a company you you may or may not have heard of. It was one that we invested in when I was at Google Ventures. They

Work with all the financial institutions. to connect and provide data to apps like personal capital. So you're actually not sharing your login credentials with Plaid. Or with uh personal capital, you're sharing them with Plaid.

Plaid secures them. They issue like a token to personal capital. So personal capital never actually has your credentials. Um, and then they can view your data that through through that. One like secured

Vault. Cool. It is nice like that. Yeah, I was worried about that as well. Yeah. Uh so uh to completely so the I will add one more thing on the finance front, which is I'm

Fucking tired of thinking about anything related to finance or investing. That's been you forever, dude. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But especially

Especially in the last, I would say, six to twelve months. So my One of my goals is to Do as much possible in terms of batching activities or setting rules for myself, like strict rules. Like you can't eat bagels. I don't eat bagels anyway, although they're delicious, but like making very binary rules.

For myself. Because I think it is very easy. And If we look at just human behavior, I think it's it's very natural, but often

harmful to one's health. If you have something that is moving up or down. Or and up and down, if you have something easily quantifiable that to your mind seems like points on the scoreboard, whether positive or negative, it's really easy to spend a lot of time being distracted by these things and looking at these things. I I'm thinking a lot more about

Energy management over the next Year then Time management. I I feel like time management should be a downstream decision. based on your energy management priorities and rules. And that is how I'm approaching it. So

I am hoping to do Effectively. zero investing unless I have to make defensive moves or Disaster befalls me. Uh which I hope will not be the case.

So that is uh all to say. I kinda crammed a lot of decisions because as you know, Kevin, I was sitting on the sidelines since mostly sitting on the sidelines since I don't know, twenty fifteen, with the exception of that Crypto. Yeah. And uh

I don't enjoy it in the same way that that some of my friends do, and maybe you do. Just the like the tracking of all of it. I think it's more I feel like uh it's kind of a a leaching of energy for me, even though it is very addictive. So I'm I'm looking forward to doing things that have nothing to do with investing and

Yeah, we were talking about in prep for this conversation talking about or I guess in the in the Google spreadsheet talking about this year Meaning twenty twenty twenty one, uh New Year's resolutions. Last year. And I do every year

for the last handful of years, a past year review where I go through my calendar week by week. From the previous year. And look at The things that gave me the most energy, took the most energy

Some of them are worth it, most of them are not. And trying to identify The kind of peak emotional. uh experiences, positive and negative And who the people and activities are.

on both of those lists. So I'm sorry to say, Kevin, you ended up on My negatives, no, I'm kidding. Um And and that's how I then go through and look at scheduling things. And spending time or not spending time with activities and people for the next year.

And the most consistent energy giver. was time in Uh nature. And activities in

Nature. And Which is part of the reason I was so thrilled and we can kinda go in any direction, but to get as a gift this book Which is

by Barry Holston Lopez, and it is probably the best nonfiction book I've read in the last five years. It is so cool. Unbelievably good. And I have highlights on almost Certain in every chapter. And uh it's just I had to modify the way I highlighted because I highlighted so much. His writing is

It's crisp and clear as Michael Lewis. The structure of his writing. is right up there with like John McFee. And the the the beauty of his prose and just the wordsmithing and use of metaphor.

Is right up there, I would say with Mary Oliver, I was blown away. I kept stopping my friends and wanting to read them paragraphs and chapters and they got pretty annoyed after a while, but It is a spectacular. Nonfiction book.

Very good. Yeah, it uh And you know it's funny, Tim, y I don't know if you remember telling me this, but you s told me I don't know, maybe was it six months ago you're like I'm not reading any new books. What was it you were saying something like that. What was the difference? I read no books that were printed in twenty uh that were published in twenty twenty. So I was reading

Books. But I I put up a blog post as a policy And I think the title of the blog post was Making the single decision that removes a thousand decisions. And that relates to

The burden of getting hit up by hundreds of people a year who want me to read their books that are coming out, you know, a week later or two months later. Uh and i it it's not that they're bad people, but they they very often have a book coming out. They want to be on the podcast and

I end up Oftentimes or I have ended up with just stacks of hundreds of books, and the fact of the matter is We don't have that much time on the planet. You know, unless we figure out how to You know, recycle

You know, twenty year old blood like vampires like some people do, who shall not be named, or whatever, using fancy drugs, rapamycin, metformin, et cetera, like maybe you get you eek out a few more years. Okay, that's possible, but If I look at the average age of death of males in my family going back many generations, as far as I could Like easily do the math. It's about eighty five. Like it doesn't really matter what you do, as long as you don't get hit by a bus or fall off a cliff, like you're probably gonna die around eighty five. So

I'm forty three. That means I've crossed the fifth mark. I think it's helpful to just assume that. And uh You can sit down and do the math. Like how many really good books do you read per year? And people do the math and maybe they end up at five, maybe they end up at twenty. It's hard to read twenty

amazing books unless you're really deliberate about it. You probably read a fair amount of garbage. So you figure out like okay. This You know, this book took me a long time to find. And it was gifted to me.

Even though it had been recommended many times, I still didn't read it. And you said a long time to find, meaning you just hadn't heard of it or it's out of print. No. No, no, it's not out of print. It's it's uh a long time to find It took a long time for for it to happen, I guess is what I'm saying. It had been recommended many times But we get bombarded with reading assignments all day long, right? Maybe it's just something on TikTok or Instagram or Twitter or

Whatever, although I deleted all all of those from my phone. Same I deleted yeah, all of those have been deleted from my phone for about six months now, which is great. Uh Wait, I saw you post on Instagram the other day. I didn't see it. Yeah, yeah, I do know. Uh she told me'cause you you posted our chocolate bar that we got you. I did, yeah. So I have a workaround. So the way that I post to Instagram without using Instagram.

No, I use I use and well I mean that sometimes happens too, but I use uh an app called OnlyPult. And only PALT, like catapult, but only PALT PULT. allows me to post to Instagram without having the application on my phone. So I'm sure there are other things that allow you to do this, maybe Hootsuite or others, but Uh I've used only Pults.

And it's it's really kind of a It is not a Swiss Army knife. It is for Swiss. Instagram and ASCII? Like you're like scrolling. I like to I like to think that you're uh

Your assistant's calling you up and being like Kevin is wearing a red shirt today and Daria seems to be holding their dog, like describing you post by post. Yeah, I'm like take out the semicolon. Who uses semicolons? No, I uh I use only Pult. It it think of it as a buffer for Instagram specifically. So you can schedule social media posts or post immediately using this application And Yeah.

posts to your Instagram account for you. So what that allows me to do is I can take a a photo of something I think is beautiful. Or Useful put it on Instagram. and do so without ever being exposed to my feed.

In any way. So I'm it is it is in other words It is right only. Instead of read only. I mean you could just unfollow everyone too, and then when you go both There's like a blank feed.

Yeah, I mean I could do that, but then you don't get the DMs and stuff, I guess. Well how do you look at jobs? I don't really use DMs. Yeah, I don't either. Uh Yeah, it's just it's just over uh the volume isn't manageable. So The the point being with these books is like

Look at your track record of reading books. And I remember Tim Urban wrote about this, uh the the creator of Of weight but why. in an amazing piece called The Tail End, which everyone should read. And it talks about

How precious time actually is. Everybody listening to this, if you haven't read The Tail End by Tim Urban, read it, reread it. I reread it regularly. And the fact of the matter is, like, I don't know, maybe I have a few A few hundred books left to read.

Like good ones? So I don't want To be reading stuff. generally speaking, that hasn't stood some test of time, right? Like this guy

Barry Lopez. won the National Book Award. He was nominated for the National Book Award for this. What? Of wolves and men. I mean, this this is a very high bar, right? They just published the twenty-fifth anniversary edition. It changed how people wrote about nature. Or how people

Thought about constructing nature writing and nonfiction period like the guy completely reshaped a an entire genre of writing. It's in it's incredible. And if you have that high a bar. There are still too many books.

So I'm trying to be much more purposeful about my reading, and that was why in twenty twenty I had I'm not reading any books published this year, which I am going to extend for twenty twenty one. So I'm not gonna read any books published in twenty twenty one either. That's awesome.

I love that. Yeah, feels good. And once you make the rule, it depersonalizes it. This is really important because uh it's hard to say no. When you're making One off decisions, right? If somebody comes to you and they're like, Hey, can you contribute to my GoFundMe because you know, I lost my shoes and I wanna buy a nice pair of shoes or whatever, you just get hit up with so much stuff.

And If it is a personal no, it's hard for people to receive. If it is a policy and you can point them somewhere. even if you say it's a policy, it often takes the sting out. But I could just point to If you go to Tim dot blog forward slash New books, I think it is.

Like it it it's a short URL that takes people directly Two That post on the finding single decisions that remove hundreds or thousands of of decisions.

And Yeah, there it is. Yeah, so if you if you just go to Tim.blog forward slash New books. then it takes you to finding the one decision that removes decisions. And so if I get hit up via email, via text, via fill in the blank by someone I actually know. who wants me to read a book. I'm just like, you know, I wish I could, but I can't. I've set this public policy.

So I don't have to choose among friends. Boom, and I send a link and that's That's it. That's the template response. Can I ask you? Yeah, how you um Well

Let me w I'll I'll tell you why I'm asking this question. I'm asking this question because one of the As part of the training that I'm doing with with Henry, who we talked about on a previous podcast, who's a the Zen master that I I study with. One of the things that I do is uh when I go for walks in nature, and you mentioned enjoying nature is one of the the big highlights. The easy thing to do is to put on a podcast or an audio book, right? And

On top of that is to set it at two and a half speed so you can get through as fast as possible. My instructions have been To take out my headphones and Just

Treat it as a as a way to listen, just listen to nature. Just like let it all come in. And put your focus and attention on the sounds that are happening around you. I found that to be A Much more it's like a a like a amplifier on top of d the already awesome walk.

uh just idea of of of really being there rather than try and do extra things while you're on that walk, right? And so My question is You know, when I've been listening to audiobooks, I've actually said okay, one X speed. Because I really if I'm going to do a book

I'm gonna give it my full attention. Are are you doing anything like that, or do you jam through books? Do you read them at night? Like how how do you consume? Well So there are a few things I'd love to reflect on that you just said.

As far as nature goes. I would say That And I try to think about much like the energy management leading then to time management, I think a lot as you know about the the sequencing of things. Like what is the natural kind of waterfall cascade

order in which these things belong. And for me Spending time in nature. Is about cultivating an a a very detailed awareness of nature.

More acute awareness of nature. First and foremost. If I do that the enjoyment or the the contentment that I feel in nature automatically goes up dramatically. So I I I spent and part of the reason I'm thinking about this so much is I've had a very hard time reacclimating to Austin. Um and it's not because of just all the

swarms of locusts, aka Californians descending upon this fair city. Although I'm hypocritical to say that, obviously. Uh it's it's it's because it's a city. It's a city. And I spent A lot of time in the wilderness. Uh on a feel on a farm. I don't want to mention locations, but for the entire summer. So you know I spent several months

walking through the woods every day where there are black bear and coyotes and so on. And seeing the changes I I would walk for hours and I got to recognize These very minor or I should say minute changes. on my walks I would see which trees changed color first as we got closer to autumn I would see

How tracks presented themselves in certain places at certain times of the day, dependent on weather. And When I came back to Austin, I wanna say one one thing also. One of the ways that I Increased my appreciation for what was around me.

'Cause I think if if the walk isn't interesting enough for you, you're probably just not interested enough. So I asked and I'm going to be able to do it. You know, finding someone to pay. to to help me with this in Austin.

Uh found Uh wildlife biologists. And specialists or even people who work at say

To walk with me through the woods. to identify things, to point things out to me. And you know the recommendation they gave me at one point was start with trees because flowers and wildflowers are very complex. There there are going to be Dozens, if not hundreds of different varieties and Start with the trees because in in any given location

You might have At least where I was. Let's just call it eight to twelve trees. And if you learn the classifications and how to tell them apart and how to describe the different characteristics that separate them or distinguish them. you're going to be able to identify ninety percent of the trees that you see. How cool is that? Yeah, before you're going to be able to do

that point in time, they're just trees. you might identify a maple, let's say, because the leaf looks like the k something you'd see in Canada. Uh but uh by and large, it's just trees. It's green stuff that's really high. And After that Uh you suddenly kind of

Click. the dial a few notches towards high def and your experience of the walk changes tremendously. So I would occasionally take phone calls when I was walking. But I spent I would say at least seventy, eighty percent of my time Listening to bird calls, learning to identify birds.

Are you a birder now? Are you a burden? I'm not a birder. I'm not a burden, but if you are. No, no, I'm not a birder. Someone will be able to find this. There's actually an app on Android, sadly not. Last I checked it wasn't on iOS, that is like Shazam for bird calls.

It's amazing. In other words, you can hold your phone up. Click a button and it will identify which bird is calling, which is awesome. Are you doing out are you doing Shazam for birds out in the forest? No, because I use iOS. I use IOS. So I did do it the old fashioned way and like go online and listen to different bird calls and try to compare them. The the uh The other thing that I that I found really fun to do because not everyone's gonna have access to someone who can point out different plants.

is to use the Google app To do image searches on different plants. And It is incredibly

accurate most of the time. I was stunned. It's so cool. Like just walk around your house. Like how many people, and I'm gonna plead guilty here, know the names or the types of all the plants they might have in in or around their houses. Very, very few, I would guess. Right.

And Uh using the Google app and image search. Which is very easy. You can pretty quickly identify the vast majority of plants, trees, and so on. It's awesome. I've used it on walks here in Austin to identify trees.

I love that. Yeah, so those those are a few of the ways that I think about nature of which we are part, right? It's very easy to feel separate from nature. And I think that feeling of separateness is intensified if you have

earbuds in and you're listening to something at rapid speed. Nature doesn't really rush, right? So to to meet it. at its own cadence without listening to anything but what is around you, I I find really therapeutic. As far as reading These days I definitely don't rush. Like if I'm rushing through a book, I should generally just drop the book. It's not good enough.

This book like you should be you should only be choosing books. That you are sad to see end. Hm. Like if you're not like, Oh man, what am I gonna do now that I fin oh no, I have to find another book. If you don't have that feeling then you're not reading the right books. I'll give you another example.

So this book. is one that I was given uh by my girlfriend for Christmas and it's an awesome book. I hadn't read it. In probably

twenty years and it's it's this. It's called Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming. by Steven Labers, L A B E R G E, and Howard Reingold. This is an incredibly detailed tactical

How to book. About Lucid dreaming. And developing. The

uh different skills related to lucid dreaming. Lucid Dreaming. I was really really dedicated to a lot of these practices towards the very end of high school or certainly the first few years of college. And I actually reached out Two

Steven Leberish or his team when I was in college I couldn't get a hold of him. But I did get the attention of his team because I said You may want to look at if you haven't already, Hooper Zine A. Hooper Zine A is a supplement, you can get it anywhere.

Well certainly online. Which acts as an ac acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. And this this is just very long winded. Well, it's not just collected in the brain. Well, it's it's not turning off acetylcholine production, but it It has

Anecdotally The ability to help one induce lucidity. Uh how and why that happens, I don't know. At the time I had a very You know, well developed pet theory for why this is a very important thing.

So sort of mechanistically And plausibly why it worked. The point being That Stephen LeBerish came out of Stanford.

Lucid dreaming to define that. Із пенон о Realizing that you are dreaming when you are dreaming. You effectively wake up in your dream and you're like Holy shit, I'm dreaming. And normally you get excited and then you wake up. Yeah, they call that they call that in Zen, they call that enlightenment.

But it's not when you're dreaming. It's when you're awake and you wake up to the and you realize that this is a dream. Yeah. You can start with you can start with the lucid dream. See how you do. Exactly. Uh, this is actually a phenomenon that can be demonstrated in laboratory settings because your eye movements during RM sleep

correspond to your eye movements in dreams. So You could hook someone up. to I suppose it would be an E G in a sleep lab. Uh you will know when they are sleeping. And in REM states and so on based on brainwave activity.

And then if if they have uh agreed with the experimenter on a predefined set of eye movements, let's just say like right, right, left, right, right, left or something like that. When they become lucid in their dream They could look it following that pattern and indicate to someone who is in the lab that they are in fact aware they're dreaming.

Well, they wouldn't be able to pull that off. Because the the the E E G wouldn't show it, right? That's right. The E G wouldn't would would just show that they're being dickheads. Uh But the the lucid dreaming. Is uh

It it makes you more aware in your normal waking life. because You develop the habit of doing what some people might call reality checks, and that is Asking yourself the question, am I dreaming or am I awake while you're awake? And you would and then you would test it. And the way you would test that, for instance,

If you had a book cover like this with text on it, in a dream, you looked at the cover at the text, you look away, you look back, the text is generally going to change because your brain is producing The entire experience. Moment by moment. So that would be one test. Be like looking at text, looking away, looking back. Another would be looking at patterns, like I'm looking at the wall in front of me in in my kitchen and the tiles are laid a certain way. If I looked away and looked back at those tiles, they might be running the opposite direction or at a diagonal. Are your dreams that

vivid. Like my my Rem Dreams are just kind of like I I never really believe that they're real. Do you actually like Well, if you never believed they were real, you would always be lucid. Right. So Right, but I don't I don't think like I c I don't ever remember like picking up a book and being like oh it has text on it. Like that doesn't I don't to get to that high fidelity.

Like do you do you you you work on dream recall first. So you would cul cultivate dream recall and It is your grasp. On the sort of coat tails of Details of these dreams is is

so tenuous that you there are There's definitely a protocol and an etiquette to maximizing dream recall. If you don't do it immediately upon waking, you know, if you move around, if you brush your teeth, if you go take a piss, like it's gone. All of your dreams are gone. You have to be really Methodical and strict about it. Uh

But It is Incredible how quickly your dream recall ramps up. And you get to the point where you're remembering

Oftentimes three, four, five dreams a night. And taking them down. There are ways to improve that. You can wake up in the middle of the night, stay up for two, three hours, go back to bed. I mean, there are all these different techniques that are outlined in this book that really, really work. So in high school, when I first became reasonably good at this. I'm not gonna say great, but I could usually induce lucidity

And I was in my final wrestling season. And I would manifest this guy John Smith, who is a famous gold medalist and had a particular type of wrestling with low leg attacks. Yeah, I think he was out of Oklahoma.

And I would train with him. I'd never met him. And I never w I never have met him. Uh But I would train with him. I'd seen a lot of his video footage and I would train with him in my dreams in wrestling. and found that to carry over into my normal practices.

Uh so There are all sorts of things. If you're a fr let's say you have stage fright, there are all sorts of Anecdotes slash case studies of people who will then Create inception style, right? They'll they'll create

the environment of performing in front of a crowd. They practice this in their dreams and it gives them an opportunity Two Rehearse facing their fears. Right. So I'm really interested in Lucid Dreaming and

uh you know, there are some commonalities between The neurological or Біохімікл респонс чи R E M sleep as compared to the the

Uh the effects produced by like LSD twenty five, right? There are some really spooky similarities. And So this this came back to me. This is a book I've I read many times. Yeah.

Light high school Uh certainly early college. My own copy, which is covered in highlights, is somewhere. And then it was it was just gift to me again. So I have many books in my house now that I would

willingly read a second time. I think that should be the bar for reading anything once. It has to be that good. Mm-hmm. That's awesome.

Yeah, that that's uh I I have many books that I've never touched. You y like you must have but I want to get to, you know. It's just like I I tend to like clean out all the'cause like I know what you mean if if anyone that has a podcast that has more than ten viewers that you just get books sent to you. Like you get on some publisher's list and all of a sudden like a new book. Yeah, it's crazy. So I I tend to to give those mostly away to friends and whatnot.

Cool. So uh what else we gonna cover today? Uh there was a couple of things I wanted to hit. That was a good thing. Yeah, how you're thinking about twenty twenty one and what kind of resolutions you have, if any, or how you think about planning for the new year. Yeah, I mean I think there was There was two things.

Looking I I similar to you in that I I spent you know, a good chunk of time looking back on the year. And and I didn't go through a calendar, but I I did Look at my News resolutions from last year, which were

I failed in all of them. And so I I just I I mean and I look at what I wanna do differently this year, and so I've set up some procedures in place And then there were some things that some wins that I did have mid year, but they weren't resolutions because I didn't want to know we were gonna be in covet. And so, you know, I I think that Covid

What it did for me is immediately caused me to start drinking more. You know, it was like very easy to finish a bottle of wine with my wife, like, you know, and where you typically be like, Oh, we have some leftover from last night. Should we pour a little it's like no, we cleared a bottle out, no problem, and then went for a beer or something, you know? It was just like'cause we were like, We're gonna die. It's like if you're like gonna die, might as well drink. So I was I was basically just freaking out there for the first couple of months. And you know, that that kicked off A point to where I got to and I said

I'm fat. I feel like I've drank too much. And I need to course correct. And so If I'm honest with myself, I I felt really Depressed. You know, not in a clinical way, but in a

Just this has really beat me down. I miss my friends. I miss traveling. I miss like You know, there's things that I and then part of me is like, Well, you know, we have clean drinking water, we have food, we have jobs, like life is good. So But

But I think it in it's it's impacted everyone a little bit differently. And what I immediately went to is said, Well, how can I Stop and cut back on drinking and then Given that I only have so much free time with two little girls

What can I introduce that is new? that gives me some relief and brings my spirits back to a into a positive place. And so I tried a bunch of stuff. You know, I tried, you know, walking through the the forest'cause I I live in Oregon and we I got a forest in my backyard. Tried sauna, tried cold plunge, meditation, Pilates. uh working out lifting weights, like all those things.

And I would do a couple weeks of them and say, Okay Which one of these if you had to like stack rank them, which ones are having the biggest impact? On me,'cause I can't do'em all. Which ones can I do that are having the biggest impact? And Without a doubt.

I would say The two things are d are walking and and and sauna. Those are the two things that That are just so key and um I walk every single day now And it is a a no phone, no earpods like airpods like kinda walk and

It is um it's crazy what forty five minutes in the forest will we'll we'll get you in in terms of just like a mood boost, you know, like swinging the arms, moving the legs, like It's it's fantastic. So So that's been huge. Also in being

Totally transparent. I did some couples therapy. Which I thought was Fantastic. Like And it's not because

I thought I was gonna end my marriage. Like I'd never got that crazy, but it's just something you know, you're cooped up with somebody else. With a couple of like little toddlers and It gets chaotic sometimes, you know, and it's like you're

There's no work escape. Work is in the home. Like, you know, there's no There's no way to have that natural kind of break that you get. Um, whether it be grabbing a beer with another friend and then coming back to your spouse, or like there's none of that. You're just On top of each other, and so You know, we had done couples therapy back before and after we got married as kind of like a to give us a tool kit.

To deal with issues. Um and It's fantastic. I highly recommend it. It's every single time I've done it, I've never been Pissed that I did it. And you know, and I've always loved it. What recommendations would you give to people? Who are

Listening to this and considering it. as an option. What Well any best practices or recommendations for people? Well, I would say a at first I was curious, like, are there any new tech plays that I can get into here, like these talk spaces and some of these other things that are out there.

And I find that those are really kind of like lightweight Not really meant for couples. It was just like, you know, text to your therapist. And I was like, I I don't I don't need this. So I found someone that I could actually meet with over like a secure Zoom type connection that is a real Licensed therapist. Not that they aren't on on that, but a dedicated person to you that's gonna give you a full hour, you know? Um it is not not texting back and forth. And

I would say You know, I have another buddy that did the same thing and he had to get to a second therapist to find the right one. So It's not like Just because you find one that you're you go to and you're like, Oh, this this isn't what I expected.

It doesn't mean the the idea of the practice is wrong. You might just not have the right person. And so we found a fantastic woman that is Just really good at driving me back to the source of why am I feeling this way. And just opening up the lines of communication

To let us and remind us that we're both on the same team. We both want what's best for each other. And to support each other and help each other because we're coming from a loving place. But Um sometimes we get caught up.

And in other things and other loops and cycles and score keeping. I'm a big score keeper. 'Cause I'm I've I have always avoided confrontation. Like my dad was a very verbally aggressive abusive guy to my mom and had many, many, many good traits. I always like to say that about my dad'cause he did But definitely not teaching me on the relationship side.

Fantastic father. Horrible husband. Confusing for me is all hell, right? As a kid. You know, I think that uh uh I tend to avoid confrontation and then just kinda keep track of things and then I then I get upset.

And and I have something that that's like I I've all these things, ah you know, just come out. And so just like trying to address things in more real time has been a big Help for me. And yeah, there's been a ton of little things that I've picked up. But anyway, I just wanted to tell people out there

If you're going through rough times'cause I hear divorce r d divorce rates are like through the roof right now. It's like the courts are backlogged. It's it doesn't mean necessarily that you found the wrong person. You might just need a little help and that's okay. Yeah, I think the Real time versus

Dropping the mother load of like seventeen complaints and freeze framed infractions is is really important. Would you share that line that you told me that you use that I think is really helpful. Uh which one? Uh oh, I think so my I I owe my girlfriend for all of these,'cause certainly I didn't come up with these on my own. And I I think she's been

She is very conscientious about how she uses wording and language. And You would expect that I would have that as as a writer, or supposedly, but when I get upset I think I I I tend to to throw Haymakers, right? Not literally, but I'm I'm less care I'm less I'm less careful

With my wording when I'm upset. And it it usually escalates or damages things more than it helps. And I'm not like I'm not a yeller. I never yell, but I can be very blunt. And the wording that

she used and I noted it and I have also used is really simple. It's it's just The story I am making up in my head is Right, and then you have that the dishes are left in the sink because you expect me to clean them up and when I th when I believe that thought I feel like Right. So you're not it disarms it quite a bit, doesn't it? Yeah, it's really and it's not

just being nice. I mean it's being more effective. Because as soon as someone is put on the defense It's game over. Like you're just not gonna you're not gonna get where you want it to go. And By saying and this is this is also something it if people wanted to study nonviolent communication,

I think Marshall Something or other. You can find it. If you just search Marshall nonviolent communication. I can't remember the last name, but there is an audio course that is quite good. And Uh that's one structure.

And you would think as I did, I was like, Well, if we're constantly both saying the story I'm making up in my head is that it's gonna be so formulaic that we're gonna be like, Come on, what the fuck? you know, and it's just it's not gonna work. And I have not found that to be the case. It just continues to be really helpful. Even if it is but it's true though. That's why, because it is a story you're making up in your head. Right. I mean it's it's always what it is. Yeah. Having

I don't know a lot about couples therapy. I ha we we have my girlfriend and I have worked with people before. We're going to likely work with someone again just because I have phone calls on a weekly basis with someone who kinda looks after me. My girlfriend has phone calls at least once or twice a week with people who look after her, but there is no one currently Who's

sole priority is to be a sort of midwife. even if male for the relationship, right? Like the cultivator of the relationship, us together and Yeah, my feeling is even if they're not the Jedi master of relationship coaches, just having someone who can create

a neutral safe space where each person can get whatever they need to get off their chest, off their chest. is a huge service so that it doesn't bottle up, bottle up, bottle up, and then explode into this Like twenty exhibit Assault. on someone which they just can't

easily recover from. They can't easily defend themselves against And it's really jarring. Ultimately for everyone involved. And it can force people to just kinda throw their hands up and be like, Well fuck, I don't feel like I can win here. Like I just can't win. Right. I think this has happened a lot during Covid. And I know that my girlfriend and I have have both felt that way at different points. It's like well

Shit, man. Like This is set up in a way like I don't feel like there's any way I can win here. Like there's nothing I can do that is is going to lead to me feeling like I'm being successful. And I think that is much more likely to happen when it's bottled up and given out as like a massive dosage of ten or twenty things. Instead of like on a weekly basis having

Someone else say Well, Tim, like is there anything else on your mind or anything on your heart that is that you're withholding right now? And then I'm responding to a question as opposed to like Snapping over something stupid and then letting all this stuff fly out of my face. That's great. Yeah, I I think that the

The thing that she's helped me with that I I forgot to mention is that Really just identify who the cast of characters are in your head. And how they react to certain situations. Because we all have triggers. We all have these little Rough patches that if if you just poke the right way.

It's gonna it's gonna put you in uh an angry or upset or frightened or scared state. And You know, I certainly have those as well, and so I can come at something defensively or offensively. From a place that is one of these cast of characters.

that is taken over my my brain at that moment And when you can Name them, define them, their wants, their needs, their fears, their hopes. You can say, Oh, that's so and so appearing that has a fear of this. And she is triggering that right now. And so just just that bringing awareness to that just like

If you can catch yourself a little bit, it just Not that it makes it go away. But you're like, Oh, okay. Who's who's making an appearance? I know

how to de escalate this person this this type of of my personality a little bit better than before. Yeah. And have a rational conversation where you actually have an outcome. That is one that is That puts that person away for good, right? Or at least for that that time. So

Definitely. There's something there's something it's it's it's not helpful for everyone. And there are different formats for it. Some of it I've found very clunky. depending on the facility are quite helpful for couples and that is a Mago therapy. I M A G O, people can look it up and very quickly d decide whether it's helpful or not, but it It does

help you to convey in a non violent, non aggressive way. Uh some of the parts work that you're referring to? that certainly for my girlfriend and I were was very impactful. Kevin, if you had to choose a word for twenty twenty one for you.

Like a theme. Patience. Patience. Yes. Okay. It's something I'm really trying to cultivate. I feel like you're a pretty patient guy, are you an impatient guy?

Well, I mean I just think about Вот видишь. In terms of vaccines that who knows when we're gonna get them Um, you know The crazy scariness of potential mutations of a virus

uh new incoming administration, the all the anxiety and unrest out in the streets. Like there's a lot of things where I just like I'm very anxious and so I want things to be resolved and I want my Problem solver and it's like I just need to have a little bit more patience. Just like slow down And just let things unfold the way they're gonna unfold and stop trying to

To to project my mind into the future into some crazy scenario, you know. Yeah. That's a that's a big one for me. The other thing for twenty twenty one is is just really asking myself Like the for the drinking thing, that I've I've been really, really good lately.

This is covet drinking, so it's like Yeah, I'm not going crazy, but like it more than I'd like to drink. So our new kind of well my new kind of um framework that I've put together for myself.

Blackouts only on Tuesdays. Tuesdays No less than ten. No. No on uh No, so w w what I'm doing is no more than two. I have found that Anything above and beyond two drinks just does not serve me well. I'm too old. I'd wake up like hot in the middle of the night for no reason. So sweating so bad. Like hot red wine sweats, you know. And and then the other thing is never never two nights in a row. So I may say to myself, I may be on night number two and I say

You know, like or wanna drink the second night. And I just tell myself, like, can you go one day? Oh, of course I can. And then you go one day and it turns out the next day you don't want to drink. Yeah. So it's funny how just separating drinks by a night Will help a ton. And then the th the last thing and I think this is the most important thing and then the one I don't have a good answer for. But I'm working on this is part of my

Zen friend who's coaching me on some of this. Stuff. Is Really asking yourself When you're having a drink.

Like really, who is getting nourished right now? That's a good that's a good one. It's a really good one because What's happening? Who what part of me Is is there something that

'Cause there's there's something inside that's getting nourished. And just trying to like and I I don't have an answer for that yet, but it's it's a deep one to sit with, you know? Yeah. I like that. I like that a lot.

So the question for you, when you look at your graph of drink consumption, as it goes down is your consumption of Edible gummies going through the roof. No, it you know, although I will tell you, I did try something new called CBN. Have you heard of this? Uh CBN I I I have heard of actually uh from a grower, uh, but I've never

Concerned. So there's a um here is describe describe it for folks, yeah. Yeah, so there's there's um a a a gummy manufacturer out here, and by the way Tim is saying this, but you know I am not like I'm not a big user of gummies. Like I'm not sure. Oh, I'm just fucking with you. But I do f I can when When you have had gummies, it is exceptionally clear in our text messages.

That's probably accurate. There's probably pictures of me eating pizza. Fucking typing with your elbows. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, so Basically uh on the gummy side. There's one c a company called Wild, W Y L D. Um I they make fantastic W Y L D L D yeah.

And so uh they I think they have'em all on the West Coast and they're they're starting to spread all over the place, but They do a C B N It's not really psychoactive. But it really makes you sleep. Like it is I'm telling you, it's the closest thing I've had to like

I don't know, it just feels like you're you you took like a sleeping pill or something, like I take it and it does have a little bit of THC in there, like they do put some with it. But Wild makes a sleeping gummy. So You know, for me

Drinks it's like Especially when I mean, God man, the news over the last few weeks and the months, it's just been insane. So when you're stressed out. Um and that's the nice thing about a glass of wine that it but a gummy With with either CBD or CBN, but CBN more so these days. Fantastic sleep with it. And I wear the Aura ring and I just got the the Fitbit to try out the new sleep data on here and Um so I'm tracking all this stuff to see how see how it's doing.

If you have more than two drinks. You see it so clearly in your aura data. It is irrefutable. It's just it turns your sleep into such garbage. It's unreal. Well, resting heart rate goes up by ten points. Uh, and it's elevated all throughout the night. HR V goes down, like there's just so many bad things that happen. Yeah.

Um speaking of which Uh in terms of like awesome little finds that have been helping us get through these times. This right here, I'm gonna send you some of this, Tim. You gotta try this. What is it?

This is Hinoki wood in here. Okay. And so Hanochi Wood is one of the seven sacred trees of Japan. And when they talk about all the health benefits that come from forest bathing in Japan,'cause you know, uh walking in the forest can be prescribed out there from a physician.

It's typically attributed to a lot of the fragrance from Hanochi, and this is Hanochi oil right here. I found a fantastic manufacture in Japan of high quality

Like cold pressed Hanoki oil. And I will tell you what it is. I have zero I I don't know any of these people, they're all in Japan. Uh it is Hanoiki.

Uh lab.com. So H I N O K I Lab.com. These oils. It smells so I mean you've been to like A Japanese like proper bathhouse where they have like the essential oils and all this is the stuff's gold. Oh, and I put it in the sauna too.

So you can put it in some water and then like pour it over the coals in the side. Awesome. Yeah, it's a type of Cypress. It's a beautiful beautiful tree, really dense foliage. Cool. Yeah, I planted a few of them here in my yard actually.

Oh. Yeah, so I got some I I I had some Uh, Broughton. Jesus Christ. Oh, I love it. It's good to be Kevin. Not from Japan. No, we don't know. Okay, we have to qualify. Like I I I flew them via freight from just hey man, you know?

All those crypto all that crypto gold, I don't know. I can almost a hundred percent guarantee you that you have more crypto than I do. So if you're looking to ransack Oh Jesus Christ. It's it's uh Yeah. Well that's not saying much'cause you kind of Divested yourself.

Of everything. Yeah. Or a lot of things. For sure. I'm I'm definitely more I'm I'm scared the markets are just like super overvalued right now, so I I tend to go safer. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's Yeah.

I think there's a there's a good uh Good argument to be made for that. If I were to pick a word For two thousand twenty one. Yeah, what is it? Right this moment. It would be Mischievous.

I think That I've taken A lot of things and myself way too seriously. In twenty twenty.

And I think I wanna bring more Coyote energy. And kinda prankster. mischievousness into twenty twenty one. Interesting. So what does that look like in you?

Yeah. Like like no mask wearing kind of thing, or No, no, that's just being a d dick face. I don't wanna do that. No. Uh Coyote it's more Yeah, it's more I think a playfulness. And a Irreverence.

Not taking things too seriously. Yeah, I'll give you an example. I I just the other day threw up. I love the original Willy Wonka movie. With Gene Wilder. And

So I threw up this animated GIF. That uh Is Gene Wilder sort of eating candy? Yeah. The suspense is terrible. I hope it'll last

And I just threw that up. And It was hilarious to see how people responded. And

Because it's it's so Kind of oblique and Vague. that it acts as a rarshock test. Wait a second, did you throw this up like during the Trump like

Capital Takeover today? I no no, I threw I threw it up right afterwards. Oh. Yeah. Fuel and the fire, dude. Well, you say ter yes, I mean you say terrible timing. I think That

I want to cultivate A insensitivity to personality by consensus. What I mean what I mean by that is If you look at a lot of people, I'm not gonna name names, but if you look Yeah, I'm no no I'm not gonna name. No manicured like feeds and stuff. Well, you just look at personalities online over time.

Who spend a lot of time on social. And they become caricatures of themselves because they have certain behaviors rewarded, certain behaviors punished. Certain behaviors. Left unaplauded. And they start to warp and bend their behavior.

Two fit the most applause. And uh They turn into These

I think that that Ends up inevitably bleeding over into their real lives, right? I mean their their off screen lives. And I think that's really Something.

I want to be hyper aware of, which is why I don't have the social on the phone. I'm using these like workarounds like only Pulp post stuff. And I want to kinda hold up a mirror that allows people to look at their own reactions also.

Right. So I think That a lot of what I'll put up Yeah. twenty twenty one will be

Rorschach tests. And for people who don't know that, those are the inkblot tests where they would put And You know, they might see a murderer, they might see a butterfly, they might be something else, and then that is used as kind of a jumping off point for psychoanalysis. And that's not gonna be everything I put up, but I just think That

Life is too short to take yourself too seriously. And so first and foremost, it's for me. Uh but Doing things that don't seem to have a point. Doing things that are beautiful just because I think they're beautiful.

They don't need to have some Targeted outcome ROI or fill in the blank. Right. And just to kind of loosen my

Grip. on whatever I think my identity is that's been constructed over such a long period of time. And let's not kid ourselves. Like identity. Can be revealed, but it's largely constructed.

Right. And it's just you I think we get so attached to our labels of what we are and what we aren't and what we do and what we don't do. That it's a it's just a I think it's a Very socially reinforced trap. that kinda constrains your awareness and sensitivity and openness to the world.

So Yeah, more coyote. That's good. I mean the world needs I I think the problem that we've fallen into with social media And part of the reason why I don't like having an account there is it just becomes It makes me sad in some sense in that I see

It's always the best version of someone's self. Like there's never any I if he feels very manufactured oftentimes. And it's it's like It doesn't feel authentic in the way that It's always about good times. There's never any like

Any I guess there has been more lately with some of the the protests and some of the stuff that's come out on there, but I mean people, myself included tend to put just the best version of yourself on there.

versus just letting it all hang out, which I guess is what kinda what you're saying in a sense that you're you're just gonna have more fun with it than just trying to Create the Tim Ferris image up on on social media. Yeah, and you know, I don't feel like I've done Too much of that. I mean I I do I've I very deliberately put out stuff that

Is true to me that I think Could Irritate some percentage of my Followers just because I want to have some countervailing force against becoming this like dancing sock puppet on the internet.

I do that to not become too attached. Two social feedback. But

You know, not to turn this into a discussion of you know, the social dilemma, but If you are constantly exposed to these technologies, like you are completely outgunned. You're just you're completely outgunned by engineers and neuroscientists and research and development teams.

Who have For all intents and purposes, infinite resources. Two. Turn you into a little bit of a little rat in a skinner box. I I love that like the the AI is gonna look at your feed and be like, I think Tim would like this. And then like oh shit, he posted a A yellow pony. What what the hell is he like now? Oh damn it. Like you're really keeping him on their toes.

Well I wanna keep myself guessing too, right? Like I I don't I don't I want to follow Yeah, follow less of a script. And You've always been good at that, though. You've always been like every like one in every ten of your Instagram posts, everyone's like, What the hell's he Why is there a picture of that? Like it's it's not it's clearly not that m manufacture fee, which I've always appreciated. Yeah. W well I what was it? I can't remember. Well then maybe we I don't even remember what what it was, but I I back when we were both on Uh the apps I remember.

Uh one of yours was like and deleting in one three, two, one exactly You to your to your credit, sometimes when I get a little far afield, you're like I think you should probably delete that. Then I'll get a text from you, which I appreciate. Well, I can just tell well, you speaking of like you said about my gummies, I can tell when you're a little ham too, every once in a while someone will sneak out there. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's true. It's dangerous. Dangerous to drink and uh To drink and post. That's a dangerous habit. Yeah.

Uh well it's good to see you, man. It's been too long. Good to see you too. Last little thing. I know we always like to throw a bunch of nuggets out there for people to to check out. Um I I I want to recommend a documentary since we have still so much time and and months ahead of us at home. My octopus teacher.

I thought it was great. Yes. Second that. Yeah, cool. Fantastic. Beautifully shot. Netflix.

What else you got? I liked uh The Last Dance, the Michael Jordan series. It's I know it's a little bit old now, but it was fantastic. Timeless, though. Yeah. If you're like, yeah, I'm a competitor, like, okay, watch that. Watch that series. Exactly. Yeah, that's I mean one of the best mini series I've seen in years.

If you want another documentary which is actually very uplifting. Doesn't sound uplifting based on the name, but it's called Crip Camp. And it's it it begins with the story of a summer camp for Crippled. I guess young adults.

And uh one I wanna say the Grand Jury Award at Sundance a year or two ago, and it's It's really Outstanding. So that that's one I would recommend. Cripcamp. also tends to it just puts a lot in perspective also. So so I I really enjoyed that.

Hamilton's pharmacopia. Or pharmacopia. Just has a season three coming out now. For those who don't know Hamilton Morris, he's been on my podcast. Exceptional biochemist, really good at synthesizing all sorts of things. also a very good storyteller and a hilarious, hilarious

Character. Unlike any other. Also happens to be the son of Errol Morris of Fog of War fame. And he's a he's a really, really Good.

narrator and editor of the series called Hamilton's Pharmacopia. Which you can find on Amazon Prime, you can find it on I want to say Vice. And season three just came out and in each episode He Describes the

the history, the culture, and the biochemistry of a psychoactive drug. So it could be Uh could be It could be meth, it could be angel dust, it could be LSD, it could be Uh five M E O D M T Ketamine, Ibagain.

And Uh in each episode he also then consumes or administers each of these drugs To himself or has them administered. and records the entire experience and describes the entire experience. So it's uh

It's a really well done series. And that is crazy. Well certainly also Put some fear of God. and healthy respect into the conversations around these compounds too.

Yeah. Not everything turns out well. And Although he's usually fine. He's very seasoned, but uh There are also other people who agree to have their experiences filmed and

They don't always turn up. Fantastically well. That Ibogaine stuff, man, that scares me. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think you should be

Very, very, very, very, very exceptionally cautious with IBogain and IBoga. It's one of the few psychedelics that can Kill you. With Cardiac. complications. So yeah, that that is definitely

as far as I'm concerned, personally off menu, although it does have some incredible possible applications to opioid dependents and addiction. Yeah. I've heard that. Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, there's if you want to see there's a documentary called Dost. D O S E D. I saw early versions of it. which I wanna say came out in the last six to nine months, which does a good Uh showcase.

uh in a sense or uh provides an exploration of specifically opioid addiction and possible intervention with uh psychedelic assisted psychotherapy things of uh along those lines. And I begin. Or I boga, I'm not sure which they used. Iboga would be the root, I want to say the root bark itself. Ibagain would be the isolated

Alkaloid. Uh or synthesized, depending on how they approach it. So Hamilton's pharmacopia. Is worth a gander if you're interested in such things. Uh Cool.

Anything else? I think that's it. That's all that I have. Oh no, I that I have one more. Uh have you seen the new Jazz movie, the cartoon. Ah, what am I drawn by Jazz movie? No, you know what I'm talking about? The cartoon that everyone's talking about.

Jazz movie. I have no idea what you're talking about. Hold on. Cut the extra Space on this. On the audio side.

I want it to be as awkward as possible. No Jazz cartoon Pixar. Um soul. Soul, yes. Excellent. Yes, I I wholeheartedly recommend people check that out. Yeah. Yeah. That's a must. It's fantastic. I twisted my friend's arm into signing up for Disney Plus to watch Seol because it's the only place that I believe you can watch it. That's right. And and we watched it and then I ended up watching the Mandalorian.

And I was like, you know, if I had had the forethought to just use Disney Plus, I absolutely would have invested in Disney when it got smashed. Post Covid. Yeah. I mean it's talk about The franchises they own is just Marble, Nat Geo. Pixar, I mean Star Wars, the lineup is just absurd.

Yeah. Also a lot of fun. Yeah. Mandalorian, John Favreau, congratulations, everybody involved. Fantastic show. Yeah, that's a great show.

And let's see. I'll also mention You're looking for a healthy snack. I'll mention a company that that I'm involved with just because I love their stuff and ha have had a chance to spend time with the co founders who are husband and wife. Jake and uh Kuulani Muse.

in Hawaii who run Maui Nui venison. So Thank you for the box, by the way. Yeah, you're welcome. Your way. Tim Tim sent me a box and I have been I highly recommend

Uh uh the uh the jerky. It's fantastic. Not the dog jerky. Toaster likes the dog treat. I almost almost broke into that. I just saw jerky and I almost went for it. And it looks good enough to eat. The dog treats are Molly's favorite. the human jerky, the bars And everything are fantastic. And the leg medallions are just incredible. So it's I haven't eaten that yet, but I'm going to how's the bone broth, by the way, because I haven't tried it yet.

Bone broth is exceptional. It's extremely high protein. And It's all outstanding. I mean, this is the as far as I'm concerned, and as far as I can tell, the most nutrient dense Meat. You can possibly imagine. It is all wild harvested.

Although it's for those people who might be worried about game harvesting on public lands, it's all done on private lands on these large ranches because access deer in Hawaii are Massively damaging as an invasive species and they actually not just destroy the vegetation where it looks so bad that people Think it's

caused by wildfires, I mean that amount of destruction. But that that leads to erosion and runoff that also damages the the coral reef and the marine life. on the Hawaiian Islands. And um this is specifically Maui. So the the ecological cost is huge. And so they work with uh USDA inspectors they hunt at night at long range with rifles, they only take headshots to make the

kill as stress free as possible for the animals. The entire operation is like something out of special operations. It's Unbelievable. Sounds like it. They're like night vision snipers with headshots. Yeah, they use infrared cameras and have you hunted them? I have. I didn't uh see one out there. I did, yeah. I hunted with bow. Also with rifle. But I feel

And I don't I don't hunt often. But I I think it is a profoundly, profoundly impactful way to reconnect with food.

Oh, dude, if you kill an animal and you or sorry, if you eat an animal but you won't kill it. You're way disconnected from nature. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I've I've always told myself I've never killed a cow. But like I do eat cow, so if I if if there was a way

that I could do it in a humane fashion At at a place that like I would I would probably have to do it just because I'd be I feel like a hypocrite otherwise. Oh, you shouldn't have said that. I'm gonna find you a cow.

That's your own. I don't want to do it. I I I don't really wanna do it at all, but I'm just saying that like I just I I I don't know. Do you know what I'm talking about? I just I f would feel awkward saying I'm willing to eat you at someone else's hand.

But not be willing to do it myself. Yeah, and it's it's uh you know, hunting's not for everybody. I was I was strongly, strongly militantly anti hunter. and hunting up until I worked on the four hour chef. And

I decided for a portion of it that I wanted to do my best to learn to hunt and forage, to consume only those things that I procured myself. And had the opportunity While doing that deep dive to spend time with really Hyper intelligent, responsible hunters.

Like Steven Ranella. who's written books on the American bison, he's written all sorts of in incredible books on multiple topics.

as far as I'm concerned, can be approached in an extremely responsible, extremely eco aware And thoughtful, conscientious. Manner. Yeah, it it really can. So You know, the meat that I have here and the meat that I ate when I was

When I was hunting in Hawaii was from what we got that day. And and I feel very good about that. I feel very good about it. That's the that's the the evil side of hunting obviously is both on the The species that that are in low numbers, which obviously is just a h massive no no, and then also

For the trophy of it. You know, like it like I l I I I really respect the people that have learned how to do the full, you know, nose to tail processing of an animal and to make use of Of everything they possibly can. It's it's really it's really quite cool. Yeah. So so people interested, check out the video. on MauiNuiVenison.com. The video is incredibly well done. It's done with a award winning cinematographer.

uh and it shows the kind of ethos and mission and how they approach all this stuff. It's Incredible. Uh so Maui M A U I Nui N. U Ivenison.com and people can check it out. It's it is

The startup and and you know, Kevin, I've made basically no direct startup investments in the last handful of years. And uh been helping these guys. It's a very tough business. It's the best product in the world as far as I'm concerned. And I I'm so enamored of this company and the family and the people behind it and the ethos. It's just like it checks all the boxes for me. So that's awesome.

Your food your food investing is hilarious to me, by the way, because Like I would say on tech Fantastic track record. Yeah. Then then the Cricket Protein. Remember you did those bars? Yeah. But the the funny thing about that is then they went and started a new company Yeah, that's killing it. That is killing it. Magic screen is killing it. And you unfortunately missed out on that one. I did, I did miss. But you know, it's it's uh I'm doing okay with food, man.

I'm doing actually uh really two investments I know you have, so maybe you have a handful more than I've got. Well, blue bottle did fine. Right. Blue Blue Bottle did fantastically well. And Hughes The chocolate makers were just acquired, I think the announcement was last week by Mondalise.

And I was an advisor to Uh well, I s suppose I still am an advisor to you. So that was also That's awesome. A really uh Fantastic.

I'm just giving you shit. I mean like literally ninety percent of the deals that we do like go to zero, then that's totally fine. That's the name of the game on on the early stage investing. Yeah, but if I could if I could choose one that I really want to not just survive but thrive. Like now he knew he would be at the very top of the list just because the The sort of benefits to community and ecology And like w the way that they're walking the talk in a

It's rare. It's super, super rare. So that's awesome. I will say that um in with the product that I have tried so far, I haven't tried it all. If you're scared of the idea of venison, you shouldn't be,'cause it's very damn tasty jerky. Like you would you would be It's not gamey at all. It's not gamey at all. Um, and then I will say magic spoon for people that are like old school cereal like fruity loops, but want a keto friendly snack. Do you say fruity loops, you ninety year old? No, they have like fruity loop like flavor type. Fruity Oh sorry. You know what? Fruity loops was the DJ software. Do you remember that? It was how you made loops. It was something like that. I got it. Yeah, so Magic Spoon. I mean I I have an entire pantry full of their stuff and I'm I'm really thrilled for the founders. They've done the extremely good job of making a great product. So yeah, i if you if you liked cocoa puffs, fruit loops

These types of cereals as a kid. You can have Cereal that tastes very much the same. That is Basically

Zero carb, super low net carb. with high protein and enjoy it with your real milk or fake milk of choice. And it it's fantastic. My favorite is the chocolate. I I really like the chocolate favor. The cocoa I guess.

They had one too that was like a cinnamon one that was quite good. Um anyway. Yeah, good stuff. Cool. Coolio, coolio, man. Well Uh, you wanna tell people where they can find you?

Yeah, I mean uh eventually this year I'm gonna start up on the Instagram again. That's probably the best place. I'm just at Kevin Rose. You can find me there. And I also have a a podcast that I put out One episode about it every three months. It's not that regular, but I do have really good guests. I just have some great ones. I had Andy Ratcliffe on most recently who's um founder of Benchmark. Um and also wealthfront, uh benchmark capital being one of the most successful uh venture capital firms of all time.

Um and fantastic interview about The importance of a a diversification and yeah, just like it's he's a brilliant, brilliant man. Have you ever had Andy on your show? You know, I have, but I had it via Mike Maple's Show. And he did an episode where Andy was featured and so we published that audio.

On my podcast. Yeah, smart guy. Extremely smart guy. I wish he would write a book, man. He's one of those guys you could just sit down and talk to and everything that you throw at him, he has a different take on, and most of the time he's right. And you're just like, this needs to be some like you know how Ray Dalio put out his principles book? Yeah, th Andy needs his version of that, you know? It's like So one could dream. I tried to talk him into it, he wouldn't do it.

Books. Books are a pain in the ass. But he could get a ghostwriter slash collaborator and that person would just interview him like a few hours a day for a week straight and then they would have all they needed. So there we go. Andy, if you're listening, make it happen. Alright, Kev Kev. Well It's uh lovely to see you. Yeah. Good to see you as well. Let's hang in in person this year, man. Let's make it happen. Let's make it work. Long road trip. I'll get in my armored Marauder vehicle and make my way across country to

Visit you in the forest. Maybe that's the next move. Do some forced bathing together. It just means walking in the forest. Sounds exotic and erotic. I can't wait. I mean we've done some of that in Japan. That's true. We need we that we need to get back to Japan. That would be fine. Well, step by step. Let's figure out domestic travel first and then we can figure out Japan. Fair enough. Yeah.

Not Ska. Okay, man. To be continued and uh Much love to you and the family, my man. Same to you and uh everyone out there, please

Stay safe and healthy and take care of yourselves. Bye bye. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. in the uh the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite. of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com, that's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

This episode is brought to you by Fresh Books. When you're running your own business, it's easy to get weighed down by work that doesn't get you paid. That's why I love Fresh Books and have been recommending them for years on this podcast. It's an all-in-one accounting and invoicing solution built for small business owners. Like you, I've told tons and tons of my listeners and readers who brought up Fresh Books over and over again, and you guys have better things to do, so do I, than get caught up in admin work. Whether you're a podcaster or a creative agency, you can choose a plan that's right for you. FreshBooks has been used by more than 24 million people, and it can save you more than 11 hours a week by automating invoices. expense tracking, online payments, and so much more. Easy to understand reports, an intuitive dashboard let you know at a glance where your business stands. You can create, customize, and send branded and professional looking invoices in about 30 seconds. You can also avoid that awkward exchange with your clients about overdue payments, fresh books, automates, sending late payment email reminders,

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I just ate a huge bowl of their cocoa flavor about an hour ago after a short workout. Magic Spoon cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time magazine included it in their list of best inventions of 2019, and Forbes called it the future of cereal. It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal from childhood, remember that? but it's actually good for you. Each serving has 11 grams of protein, 3 grams of net carbs, 0 grams of sugar, and only 110 calories. It's also gluten-free, grain free, keto friendly, soy free, and GMO-free. All the things. It's delicious. And I don't say that lightly because most of this healthy version of X stuff is not delicious, but these guys really nail it. Magic Spoon has nailed it. It comes in your favorite traditional cereal flavors like cocoa, frosted, and blueberry. You can try them all by grabbing a variety pack at magicspoon.com slash Tim. Or you can just grab a box or a bunch of boxes, I'm gonna order some more today, of the cocoa, which is my personal favorite, but there's a new contender for favorite flavor because they just launched two limited edition flavors, honey nut and peanut butter, which are delicious. I am a sucker for peanut butter and uh it is outstanding. So I think cocoa and peanut butter are my two new favorite flavors.

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