#33 - Pioneering The No-Code Movement

We call it a visual software development platform. It's a way for people to build things that typically coders build. Just in a completely visual environment. For us to be truly successful to be able to build a tool that builds other products and services, you can't do that overnight.

the next six months were like really, really tough. what we thought was gonna like bring in income, we didn't have anything coming in at this point and when you have a family and like rent and car payments and all this stuff and like kids need to go to school Then Just stuff started like falling apart. You know, couldn't get a trademark, one of the co-founders got less motivated, day job got a lot more interesting. I think we had raised like three hundred K and we're like really struggling and went to Paul Graham and said this is really hard on us like I was waking up every morning with panic attacks. Like my wife was like this is not healthy. Yeah, why you wanted this? Like is this what startups are about, right?

They've got 75,000 ping users. They just raised a monster round of investment. 72 million series A. those other website builders are kinda like iMovie and then webflows for like Final Cut Pro. just feels like the gold rush, sort of like the pioneer era of the space, where we're at the very, very beginning of it, sort of like the web in nineteen ninety nine. No technology in history has ever spread so fast. Products have going up on product time and like hitting number one. know that it's built with no-go tools. The analogy to me is like eating food. Not too long ago in history, I would have had to go out there and hunt and forage. Today it's abstracted away where I don't even have to think. I push a button on my phone and the meal appears. When you remove those barriers, magical things happen. Even something that feels slower to other companies or founders, getting to where we are today, seven years from now. For me, it's just

feels like a natural progression to a much larger company because we want to be around fifty years from now. Right. We want to be a foundational company. Five million is not enough. Ten million dollars. one or two people in a bedroom actually the threats to these like giant multi-billion dollar companies because you have creativity and you have nothing to lose. Add another zero to that price, buddy. Add two more zero.

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I started my own personal business school. and the teachers are the successful entrepreneurs behind the biggest brands and businesses that we find today. I wanted to know the real stories, with all the details. Like how did you get your first hundred customers? What did it feel like when shit went to bed? I ask him, How do you spend your money now that you're rich? And what would you do if you were starting over from scratch again today? If you're like me and you want to own your own business instead of living a nine to five job, this is the podcast for you.

The hustle presents my first million. All right. Here we are. Vlad. You are in the Twitch office. It's basically Christmas Eve. No one's here except for us. And we are uh we're recording this podcast. I'm excited to have you on because we've been talking about no code tools. And generally I like anybody with a good startup story, and I think you have one. For those you don't know, so Vila's the founder of a company called Webflow, and Webflow is a company that is is doing phenomenally well right now. If you're in kind of Silicon Valley, I would say you guys have that hype train right now. Do you feel that? Uh definitely the last year has been a lot more hype train yes.

So they have the hype train right now because they've got, you know, 75,000 paying users. They just raised a monster round of investment. Seventy two million series A, which is, you know, ten times more than a typical series A, I think. So they're doing phenomenally well, and we're gonna find out a couple things. So I I'm interested in in chatting with you because I wanna know what's the backstory. I've heard little bits and pieces that tell me this is not like your typical Yeah, I worked at big company, I quit, I started a company, it succeeded. Like it's not that. So give me the two minute version of like of the webflow history. And then we'll dive in deeper after that. TLDR started Webflow four different times starting in early two thousand five, back when I was still in college. Ended up being my senior project, then I started uh try to start it solo a couple of times. You know, incorporate it, try to build this thing based on.net. You know, we're looking at a Windows machine right now. Then the company that I c sort of based all the technology on went out of business. Uh always good. Yeah, exactly. And kinda gave up. Then I got married, started working into it, sort of needed a real job. Right. Met a couple buddies at Intuit. We were, you know, all fresh out of college, uh working on pretty boring things there.

and kinda got together and try to give it another go. So I had a couple of co founders try to start it up. This was like the web two point oh days, you know, the heyday of like startups starting to happen, like the Google Maps era where you can actually build something in the browser. Y C was just starting up. That was really exciting and started pitching investors, got the whole like uh entity going. Then just stuff started like falling apart. You know, couldn't get a trademark, one of the co founders uh got like less motivated, day job got a lot more interesting. My wife and I started talking about kids. So all these things added up and it was just like fizzled out. Right. And then over the next seven years just kept working into it, moved to Sacramento, and then a series of a couple like really, really, you know, out of the blue events got me to think think about Webflow again. And was it the same idea each of those times or is it just the same name and your same name and um generally the same idea, but it sort of started on the back end and moved more and more towards the front end. So the first idea was really about how do you automate back end development and make it visual. Right. And then over the years developed into more what you see. And so if somebody's never Webflow, what's the simple way you describe it? Like how should one friend tell another friend about this? Seven years ago we used to describe it as like a website builder. Exactly. But it ended up that wasn't a good description. So now the kinds of things people build with Webflow are just entire businesses, projects.

product services, et cetera. So we call it a visual software development platform. So it's a way for people to build things that typically coders build just in a completely visual environment. And it's kind of a new thing. Maybe the closest we had before was Dreamweaver or things like that, where you had a little bit of that visual flare and then you had sort of a code editor on the side. We're trying to make that but completely visual. Uh so ends up people build a lot of websites with it, but we're moving a lot closer to any kind of software. So what can it do that a wicks, a weebly, a squarespace. Doesn't do, right? Because those are good if you want to make a out of the box thing where it's like here's my portfolio, here's my storefront with just like a contact me button. Where does webflow go deeper? So webflow is essentially an abstraction layer over HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. So people start from scratch. Wix and Weebly, you're literally picking a template and sort of moving some content images around. But then if you look at like Just pick a random set of a a thousand startups every year. Like you go through their websites, they don't look like any of the templates, right? Because people are sort of like going to Sketch or Figma or whatever, creating their own brand and then going to implement that in code. Welcome is the first program that can actually take those designs and enable a designer to implement

Any one of those you know, like custom super super custom layouts. Right. The way I think about it sometimes is those other website builders are kind of like iMovie and then webflow is sort of like Final Cut Pro. Right. Or After Effects. You know like super pros are using it. But it still means that if you're not a like a professional web designer, you could still figure it out as like a startup founder, as a creator, entrepreneur, or whatever. It's gonna take a little longer than a Wix or Weebly, but what you're gonna get is an actual product. So like Webflow, if you go through the last couple of years of product hunt launches above anything else, like if a visual software development tool is being used, it's probably a web flow. Interesting. It's either code or it's webflow. Like you usually won't see like a Squarespace site being like number one on product code. Right, right, right. Exactly. Okay. That's great. And I've used it a bunch myself, just you know, like if I'm like I got an idea.

And I have four hours tonight to work on this. And I kinda know I'm probably not gonna keep going with it. I wanna make it come alive quickly and not hit a dead end where I'm like, Oh, this can't do that. I like Webflow because it doesn't have those same dead ends. So you had these false starts, right? You try to start it, but you're by yourself. You try to start it with a couple of friends, but life happens and one of'em fades away. You you start talking about having kids and that that's a not a great thing to do at the same time as you're starting to start up. And so when did you ultimately get the timing right? Okay, I'll rewind back a little bit to the third time. So this was uh Intuit, right? So we incorporated, we submitted a trademark for Webflow because we had the domain. I thought, you know especially in those days when you know Twitter didn't have any vowels and it's a good name. Yeah, it's uh I was really proud of it. There was another company called Webflow back in nineteen ninety nine. Right. And I guess they let the domain go to like collections or something, somebody picked it up and it was relatively cheaty. So one night you were just looking, you saw Oh my God, Webflow Doctor. No, it wasn't available. Okay, it was for sale for like ten grand and I was a college student. I I mean all I had was credit card uh you know kind of limits to think of those are my assets. So I ended up negotiating for a while, like sort of throwing these uh I actually created some fake accounts to send exactly low ball bids and then ended up picking it up for something like four grand. Which I was really proud of. Like at that time that was like you know, the vast majority of my credit card debt.

And by God I was gonna work it off. That's a pretty ballsy move to you know, for like out of college or you're in c are you in college at the time or you're out of college? I was still in college. You're in college at the time and to buy a f like Who buys a four thousand dollar domain when they're income? I mean I knew like I was so and you'll see, I was so attached to the name that like in in this third attempt we when we got a denial for the trademark, because there was another company in Florida that was using it They said, you know, you can use it all day, but you can't use it for anything for websites. Uh because they were trying to create it was like Learn.com they were trying to create some uh website e education thing or whatever. And then we had to like pivot and use a different name. So we went through this whole like process of trying to pick a different name and we ended up on calling it marked up, like HTML markup, but without a

Because you couldn't get the domain or whatever. And I hated that so much that that was part of the reason why it fizzled out. It didn't feel right. Right, exactly. So so fast forward like six years and I was using Webflow as a just an L C doing a bunch of websites for like side income, et cetera, uh while working into it. And part of it was working with my brother who was a designer and he was working at a skate shop and still kinda going to school in San Diego. And then one day this was late twenty eleven, in my mailbox, this was already moved like three or four times since the Intuit days and in my mailbox was a trademark certificate for Webflow. Apparently. Exactly. This was like five or six years later, after our initial submission, after we already got a denial saying like hey, this is you know, it's not going anywhere. So I saw that as a sign of like okay, something has to be explored here. Yeah, that literally seems like a sign. Okay, in your mailbox. Here's a trademark. Go forth and conquer. Exactly. And I was already I was already resigned to the fact that this was never gonna happen. You know, th th this might be an agency and at that time I already thought that Weebly was winning and like it does seem like when was this like sort of last attempt? What year was this now? This was two thousand twelve.

It did seem like this space was a like s a solved problem. And did you at that time feel like no, I have an insight that why it's not or you were just like I'm just gonna do it anyways and just see what happens. It was kinda neither of those things. I had thought that the space had come and gone, right? Like all these other companies were starting to become huge, they all got funding, and you know, I was already sort of uh quote unquote settle down. We're planning to buy a house in Sacramento. I I thought that was gonna work add into it for like Another seven years at least. And then I saw this video early ish in twenty twelve called Inventing on Principle by this guy, Brett Victor. And it was all about this concept of direct manipulation. But more broadly, it was like the he asked this question to all creators, like why do you do the work that you do? And it made me question everything. Like literally that I saw that video, I read one of his papers called Magic Inc. that same night. It would like to me like two hours. The next morning I put in my notice add into it. Uh, so what's in this video? This video is all about he kind of like draws this analogy between a lot of other different tools around how do we get create a lot more human software. How do we take something that is

Let's say you're creating games, right? Or you're making in uh animation, right? If uh one way to think about animation is like these timeline tools where you have an object and you kind of give it keyframes or whatever, another way to think about animation is you give a kid on an iPad the ability to click on, you know, like a leaf or something from a tree and trace with your finger How that animation happens. And you literally get the same effect that looks a lot more natural. And y Just by virtue of creating another interface that is way more intuitive for humans to understand. And he draws this analogy, like he shows all these examples for creating games, for doing sort of like electrical diagramming for, you know, electrical engineers, et cetera. And it like all these things just And so he's calling that direct manipulation, that's interface. Exactly. Not like direct man me manipulating you and buying coffee for you. Right, right. So so the whole concept of direct manipulation is like when I do sculpting, right, in clay, I don't like think of the change I want to make. And then go to some other place and like make that change and sort of look back and say, Right, is that what I meant? And that's exactly what we do in coding. And that's when all these things sort of like hit of

I'm a coder, I'm like writing all this HML and CSS, I'm hitting save, I'm going to this other browser, I'm sort of like refreshing, even if something auto refreshes for me, I get to check is that what I actually meant, right? And direct manipulation is all about like just do the thing in the medium, like change the live. Change the actual thing that you're trying to manipulate almost like three D animation software, like video editing software, et cetera. And like that's the moment that I knew that something had to like be created in the space that no other tool And who is this guy who did this video? He's uh is he dead? Is he alive? No, he's still alive. He's reach out and be like, hey, yeah, this video made me quit my job and start website. And there's actually a bunch of other companies that started because of that video. No way. It's incredible. What else do you know? Like I know Figma was inspired by this. I know a ton of people on Twitter have said like once I saw that video, it changed the traditional. trajectory of my life. Wow. It's really incredible. Cause even if if you don't resonate with this concept of direct manipulation, like half the video is about this question of like why do you do the work that you do? What is that principle behind your work? Yeah, because if the purpose is like to make a paycheck, it's not as exciting as like I want to make this big dent in the universe. And and for me that was the video that made me question like Am I doing what I ultimately want to do with my life? Yeah. And it just so happened that his principle around creating direct manipulation tools was

something that really, really resonated with me. So I got it sort of a double whammy from that video in terms of inspiration. All right, it's twenty twenty, new year. It's gonna be a big year. And you know we had to come in with some new, awesome partners. So for January, we are partnering up with Microsoft. And my first million. That's right, this episode is brought to you by Microsoft because whether you're just starting out or you're well on your way to your first million. Microsoft Teams can help your team hit the ground running, with must-have features like real-time chat, editing, and video calling, all in one easy to use platform. Teams is a no-brainer at a price you can afford. Yep, there is a free version of Teams, as in it costs zero dollars. See for yourself at

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chat, communicate, and and work together. And I think it's awesome. All right, great. Let's get back to this episode. You watch this video, you read the guy's paper, you're like, I'm gonna do this. You said you put in your notice pretty much the next day. Yep. What w did you tell your wife? What was her reaction? Uh this was uh Uh well of course I told my wife after I got the trademark certificate I think was this four months before we already like started the all these conversations around what would it take? Like would we move somewhere else?'Cause you kinda had to move to the To the Bay Area at that point to go to like Y C and things like that. We're already sort of talking about what would it take to apply. I and she she knew it was always sort of like

after that became kind of a a nagging thought that if I don't do something like that, something entrepreneurial, like it's it's gonna be something that I'm gonna regret. Exactly. So it she was definitely on board. Uh, especially after uh I saw this video and like came to her with like all this Just this bundle of energy. Right. Sort of like all right, we gotta do this. But those those problems, you know, w how do the kids have insurance, those didn't go away. So how did you address those? How did you make sure you So very very naively, and I think that's one of the reasons my wife was super excited was like, look, we have Three months of savings. Uh infinite runway, right? That's what it seemed like. You know, we're gonna do this, we're gonna spend a month making a Kickstarter video and make whatever, three hundred K to Fund the next fund the next like year and a half or whatever. And then we're gonna build this product in like two months and then everybody's gonna pay for it and we're gonna you know I honestly imagine that it was just gonna be myself and my brother, like running this company and you know, building a product for ourselves and kinda using it to to make websites and empower other people to make websites for other clients or whatever. It so it was like the sort of rose colored glasses of Uh you know, we definitely got this, right? Right. That's not rose colored glasses, that's like r rose eye drops that you put directly in your eye. That is so crazy. Right. But you believed it and it actually I totally believed it and I think I I used that as like rationale to get

You know, my family to believe and to pick up everything and move. You know, it definitely didn't turn out as rosy. Uh not even close, but So what happens? So you you do the move, you but you So we move in April. Then I was still working into it sort of like uh interim right. I started I shifted my hours to start at like six thirty in the morning and I left it two two thirty and I would work on web flow from like two forty five to like seven. Right. Uh and they knew what was up or uh or they were like Uh getting up early nowadays. I just sort of like negotiated with my with my team. It was sort of a small team. Right. Uh and that team was already kind of winding down. I don't remember ever having like feeling kind of shady about that because I was putting my hours just like an hour seed. Exactly. And some of the team was remote, so it sort of was okay. But I was still doing it by myself and I ended up spending like months and months on just really stupid crap, like

polishing the icons, right, for the interface, not really building anything. Right. And that's when I realized like I'm not gonna be able to do this by myself. And that's the when I reached out to my brother, who was like the best designer I knew, still one of the best designers I know, and convinced him to move to my place uh into like the condo we're renting in early September of two thousand twelve. That's when we incorporated. And that's when we just like heads down started working on this Kickstarter. Right. Essentially took all the vast majority of the money that we had to incorporate. I think that was like ten grand, then uh put in another fifteen grand into this this video, got like Yeah, you Google like Kickstarter video. Yeah, exactly. And then two months later, what we want to do was like apply to Kickstarter, have like that big success, then apply to Y C and then use the Kickstarter success as like the Y C uh kind of why why'd you want to go to Y C sounds like you were pretty even from early on, you were like then we applied to Y C that was like a ch Benchmarks. Yeah, it was just something uh you know, I think I was kinda sold by the cachier of the brand or seeing like other companies get into Y C and just explode and go into the stratosphere. Like sort of saw that as a rite of passage. Right. And it actually hit me really hard when the first time we applied and We didn't get in. I was sort of like Alright, this is never gonna happen.

in your life twice at this point. Um or total. Uh we had applied three different times. So one in two thousand seven early, uh that's the f the time that didn't work out. Didn't get an interview. Then in two thousand twelve, this latest attempt. And then six months later in twenty thirteen. Okay. And so And this last one is a great story. You were telling me this before we started recording. So tell the story of your the the latest Y C attempt. What Actually let me rewind just a little bit, like with the Kickstarter thing. Uh so we put all this money into Kickstarter and had this, you know, recorded most of the video, actually all the video, and it was like, Hey Kickstarter, we need your help, Kickstarter, et cetera. And then we receive uh a notification from Kickstarter that we don't support SaaS services. Right. Yeah, they only like creative projects that are like not uh Yeah exactly. So it can't be hosted, et cetera. And the whole thing just goes out the window. Like we couldn't we couldn't use it. We didn't have it$15,000 Kickstarter video still. Is this up on YouTube? It's not it's sort of it's it's like

internal to to webflow, but it's dude. You should put it up after this. People should go on YouTube and look for this. Well anyway, like the next six months were like really, really tough. What we thought was gonna like bring in income. We didn't have anything coming in at this point, and when you have a family and like rent and you know car payments and all this stuff and like kids need to go to school and the next six months were just like no income, going to debt, doing all the credit card, you know, like write a check to yourself that you then have to it's like a balance transfer type of thing. I was privileged enough to have enough credit, but it was still like r really tough to go through that. And then w we got to the point where at the end of that year my daughter needed to have surgery and it was like Yeah, we didn't have good health insurance. We sort of switched to like catastrophic health insurance, thinking, you know, nothing's gonna happen. It's like these high deductibles or whatever. What happened was We found out that she needed to have surgery like around Christmas time in two thousand twelve. And all the tests to figure out what she actually n needed to have done, uh, was like around ten grand, right? Which was our de d deductible. Wow. And Like that was we had to sell a car to pay for that. Then the thing that we found out was like

It rolls over to January when she actually has to have the surgery. You you start all over again. So Oh no. Exactly. So then we were at a point where like okay, we're completely out of money. We're talking uh about getting our jobs back, like Serge wanted to move back to San Diego, I wanted to move back to Sacramento. And we gave each other six weeks of like what can we do to it was like the the bare minimum uh on the the remaining credit that we have to to be able to show something to the world. Uh and that's when we put together like this it wasn't even a an app, it was sort of like a demo. Uh and you can still see it on playground dot webflow dot com. And we put it up on Hacker News and that just exploded. Uh which was like really, really surprising because here are all these developers and what we're presenting is a way to do it. Exactly. Like it'll generate code for you. And that finally like we applied to Y C again with that.

as a a proof. A proof point that hey there's might be something here. Mostly from Hacker News. And these days it'd probably be more from product hunt or something like that. And uh finally got kind of got an interview request or interview uh you know got an interview slot and we went and did this interview Completely nervous, you know, we like had no idea what we were doing. We did all this interview prep. And for those who don't know the Y C interview is ten minutes. Yes. Rapid fire. They're gonna make a decision after ten minutes of whether you're in or you're out. Yep. And you know, I could do ten minutes of like small talk. Yeah. And so there is no small talk in this. So what's that interview like? It was really intense. I mean we walk into this room and it's uh Paul Bouca, who's the the creator of Gmail. And a bunch of other people we had no idea who they are. Do they even do intro or they just go? No. They just go. It's like it's like boom boom boom. And it felt like an interrogation, right? Like why why would this work when other you know when so many others have tried and haven't done blah blah blah. At the end of it, we just walked out and we felt maybe there's a twenty five percent chance that they'll ever

Right. Uh because we felt like we stumbled. We kinda like agreed on you know some categorization, like if they ask a question about this, like you answer. If they ask a question about design, like the uh another co founder answers. And I think we like bungled quite a bit of that. Where at the end It just it just felt like we didn't get our uh entire idea across. Right. So we're like super nervous, we go to this beer place, try to get a beer, and you know, there's this like gap between our interview, which is around noon, and six PM, the uh format is they call you if you're in, or they send you email if you're out. And So we have like four hours to kill and we have beers and uh we're still like super nervous, so we decide to go watch a movie. So we head over to Shoreline at the Century Theater and get tickets for Oblivion, which is like this Tom Cruise movie where he like clones himself or something like that. So watching this movie and I'm like looking at my phone like a hawk. And finally a phone call comes through. Six six five O number, so I'm sure like okay, this is this is it. So I sneak out of the movie theater and sure enough it's P V the the Gmail guy and says Guys are in. Do you accept these terms? Like we're excited to work with you, et cetera. Doesn't say my name, doesn't say Webflow, but we're like over the moon. Like Brian Sergey, my co founders jump out of the theater. They're like, We're jumping up and down. We call our families, girlfriends, wives, et cetera. I started to set up dinner. Right. We did it. Exactly. This is like

Holy crap, this is the the biggest milestone for for this company early on, et cetera. And then you know, all of our families are arranging to meet at this restaurant in down downtown Mountain View. But the movie's not over, so we just like decide to go after we arrange everything, go back and and watch the movie. And for whatever reason I'm still checking my phone. And then it buzzes and I have an email. from Y C that says, Unfortunately we decided not to fund you uh because your product is too complex for beginners and not powerful enough for pros. And we're like Holy crap. So I sort of like signaled to the Brian Surgeon to step outside. And you know, this is like the biggest roller coaster. Right. Thirty minutes ago we were in t to this like prestigious startup accelerator that's harder to get into than Harvard, and all of a sudden we're like, here's a perfect reason f why

If I was at Y CY I wouldn't accept us. Right. So for sure we thought that the phone call was a mistake,'cause you know, there's no identifying stuff in there. And for the next two hours we're just like in complete hell in limbo. Because we couldn't reach anyone. It was, you know, this huge roller coaster. And finally we got you know, we started driving to to the office. We just thought, you know, if if we can't get a hold of one. Let's just go try to meet him in person. It was already after six o'clock. Maybe somebody's gonna be there. And on our drive there, one of the partners and says Really sorry, the email was a mistake. You guys are in. Honestly, like that was the biggest sort of like high point, low point, back to high point and you know, the rest is kinda history. And so did you ever talk to them and be like, Hey, what was the deal? Or are you just Apparently Apparently the the they have like a board? Yeah. Where after they make a call, you erase the race the person, and then something like that didn't happen with us. So somebody had assumed that they needed to send a rejection email. They changed that process. This is just you.

getting to do the company. We haven't even talked about how the company actually started to succeed. Yeah, uh I think it was another couple of years. So so we go through Y C. You know, you you sort of have this idea that you get into Y C everything else is gonna work out. Right. Not the case at all. So we go through Y C and uh you know go into demo day You know, we we struggle. What are the numbers like at demo day?'Cause you have to stand up on stage and say, We're c we're killing it. I think we said something like we had twenty five thousand users, not nearly all of them were active. We had this like stat that we're Ramen profitable, which was barely true. Right. Like we were making maybe Two three grand or something like that. But you know, with three founders one of the like I had kids and family. Right. Uh Roman profile but we don't eat lunch or dinner. If we lived in like you know backwards Russia or something. Yeah. But I think it was mostly sort of like the story that we used. But at the time, like it was a terrible time for us to raise building a uh you know web specific product because in two thousand twelve. And twenty thirteen mobile was every Exactly. So all these investors told us like what are you doing? Right. There's like what's your mobile strategy? Why are you I think I even DMed you this many a long time ago, two years ago, being like, Hey, can I use this to make an app? Yeah. And in my head what I was really thinking was why don't they just do this to make apps? Why why isn't that the case?

It's a hard thing to it's essentially we're all in on the web platform, right? HTML, CSS, JavaScript, et cetera. Where that that was the problem that we wanted to solve with like responsive web design, to be able to build things that are not just websites, but like in the browser, right? And most of the time, like all the apps that you use, even though they might have a mobile app, so let's say Airbnb, let's say Twitter or whatever, the vast majority of folks who are experiencing it are are using like the web version, right? We that's that's all the skills that we had. We knew how to abstract away H on CSS. We knew nothing about mobile. Right. Should there be uh mobile flow, should there be a web flow for mobile out there? But I think uh and and if you are getting close. I think at the end of the day that's gonna be web flow. And mostly because we sort of like get to cheat a little bit in that The web platform is catching up and now there's something called progressive web apps, which is essenti essentially the same exact technology as Webflow. Like we already can compile to progressive web apps. Right. Uh but then they appear like full on apps in the on your home screen. Yeah. You just don't have to go through the app store.

And they might not be as like complex as something like a Snapchat, but for the vast majority of apps, uh it's it's good enough. You can't do push notifications, right? At some point on Android you can. And and there's a lot of pressure for iOS to to add that. So I think that that's why that's what I mean by like we kind of get to to wait until more and more of this develops. And there's enough of a huge market on the website use case that when we get, like time will bring us the sort of app Okay, so g we're going back. So you're at Y C You're not crushing it. Uh you get a demo day. At Demo Day are investors flocking to you because if if you haven't been to Demo Day, it's like a meat market where you got these startups who stand up on stage. You get I think one minute now or something like that on stage. Two minutes. Two minutes on stage to say your piece. And then afterwards the investors are supposed to find you and like investors wear one color badge and then the startups wear another color badge.

And it's like this horrible speed dating experience. Yeah, it's it was a lot less clear back then'cause there were no badges. You know, you had the system where where investors could say, Hey, I'm interested. Right. And we thought, you know, we're gonna get hundreds or something like that. But You're checking your phone and Yeah, I was like trickling in and after that we had weeks and weeks, actually months of meetings with other partners and it was like really slow going. And finally it was sort of like investors are kinda like Uh they work in packs where uh or like it's social type of dynamic where mentality once they know others are uh or the windows closing. Uh so we had like almost I think we had raised like three hundred K and we were like really struggling and went to Paul Graham and said, This is really hard on us. Like I was waking up every morning with panic attacks, like thinking, okay, another another day of like going into these you know boardrooms and Were you really? Wha what is what is that like? So you wake up Like my wife was like this is not Healthy. Yeah, why w w do you wanted this? Like is this what startups are about, right? It was even worse than like the times when, you know, wow one of our daughters would go into

through surgery and we're running out of money or whatever, like it felt a lot worse. You g I was getting like cold sores almost every week. Super stressful so we went to Paul Graham and we're like and he said, look, there's three of you, you have three hundred grand You can actually work. on this on this idea. Sure you can't hire anybody, but just go back to doing what you do best and just building the product. And with that confidence we just told all of the investors we were talking to, like, hey, we're not ready. Winding down. Yeah. And you know, we're just gonna go back to building the product,'cause at that point like our customers weren't getting any attention, you know, it was it was just a really stressful time. And when you say you're not raising anymore, like a bunch of other stuff came in. So I ended up raising like one point four. Uh that is the fundraising trick. Yeah. Which is

We don't need money more. Right. Well just take some. Take some from me. Yeah. So that that worked out. But then what we thought was, you know, we had like these thirty plus thousand people on our wait list, and then we thought, of course we're gonna get you know, convert a bunch of'em. And then we launched the product and it was some you know sub two percent or sub one percent that we converted. So It was because the product just wasn't powerful enough yet. We can o you can only build one page and didn't have like the vast majority of things that we have now. Uh so even though people found some value out of it, it wasn't so much that they were willing to pay and stick with it. That was a pretty long journey of you know at least a year of growing pretty slowly. Like slowly adding revenue And coming to the realization that we're not going to be able to raise again. So we have to get to break even somehow. Whether it's uh, you know

hiring slower or building products that that will like add more to revenue. So we started building our CMS. And thankfully that was the right call of like just going slower and and and getting to break even or what's sometimes called like default alive. Right. If you never raise again, you're at least not gonna die. And once we got to that, it was sort of like This freeing moment of you know, we're just gonna keep focusing on building the product. Right. Uh and that's what we did for the next like And so what'd you guys like, did you have a number on the wall every week that was like, you know, revenue or users? Like what was your big like I guess what was your How did you and the team stay focused? What did you guys focus on? What did you guys celebrate was at that time? I think we were a lot more idealistic and more product driven.

And a little bit naive in the sense that all right, if we build this next feature, more users will come. So we're a lot more like that, like let's get this next thing out, let's get in it interactions and animations out, let's get the CMS out. And I think over time that proved to be successful, but we did not do a great job of like orienting everyone around a similar goal. Gotcha. Uh until like Normally when I advise startups and they're like this next feature, that's what unlocks growth, I'm like, Oh, don't do that. Yes, exactly. That always I've done that and that doesn't work. But in your case it actually kind of worked. I think over over the long term it worked, but we were lucky in that the market is so massive and we had this like sort of tight window of opportunity where nobody else was working on on website building. products more or less because they thought that mobile was the the next thing. Right. And responsive web design was like pretty brand new that all the old players had haven't gotten into it yet. Like Adobe hadn't gotten into responsive web design. So it's sort of like this perfect overlap of enough market demand that it was sort of like pulling us into product market fit. And you know, uh our sort of like product sense of let's build something like really amazing that the designers are gonna be like proud to work on. Right. And it worked out for us. But like yeah, usually I don't Usually when you say that statement about like

You know. Yeah. We just need to work on this feature. That'll solve our growth problems. You're actually circling the drain at that point. And w we did think about growth in the sense of like okay, everything that we're doing naturally is not working out. So we try like this, you know, affiliate program and uh like a referral thing. None of them really worked for like our user base or uh maybe we just didn't get them right because people are trying to game them and everything. Over time it was mostly the product that led to growth. And so what does that mean? Do that means you see most of your traffic fr coming from word of mouth, SEO, where where do you think that's the thing that you're now doing it is more than sixty percent is word of mouth, or just people like searching for web flow on on Google and stuff. Over the last year or so we started doing a lot more sort of like paid acquisition, trying to grow faster. Yeah. Things like that. But the vast majority still comes from people talking about it. That's great. And so when did things start to really heat up and things started to accelerate faster? I remember something was posted on Twitter around like you expect growth to be really stable and then but the actual curve looks like super choppy. For us it was always kind of the kind of product we're building, I guess, it's always kind of

capped by like growth is capped by what it can't do because people sort of like naturally earlier on they would graduate past it all the time. Now it happens a lot less. But it was enough that we sort of You know. grew us uh a certain percentage per month for like years. And it wasn't you know, like we thought when we built the CMS, we thought when we built e commerce, we thought when we built, you know, these big product editions, it's gonna be like a huge inflection point. But over time it's just been like cumulative and the same rate over over time. It's it's actually pretty hard to maintain the same rate as the numbers grow. Yeah. But we've been able to do that. And It's just been kind of slow and steady wins the race. Right. Uh well not slow, but like

Not not like hyper fast, uh but steady. Right. And here in Silicon Valley, not hyper fast feels like molasses. Yeah. It feels slow just because you'll see things popping up. So so if you didn't catch this whole story, you basically in two thousand what, four or five, you're like I had this idea. And then you fall started a few times and then like kind of like let's call it the real start was let's say twenty twelve this time. And so now this is like seven, eight years in that you're into this business and honestly. As I'm hearing this, this is kind of amazing you stuck with this. Like I don't know if I have that stick to itness like you had with this business. Like I would have quit Ten to twelve times along the way. And not because I'm a quitter, I don't think. Just because I'd be like, look, time is just going by. Why were you not that way? I don't know the answer to that. I think I'm just naturally not impatient. I'm just more oriented around stability and a decent change in pace. Okay. Even something that feels slower to other companies or founders, you know, getting to where we are today seven years from now. For me it's just uh like feels like a a natural progression to a much larger company because we want to be

around like fifty years from now. Right. We want to be a foundational company. And how do you do that in a way that feels like it's still web flow, like the culture, the mission, the principles, the values. And it that just seems a lot easier to preserve when you have like a more measured sense of pace. And even, you know, like right now we're winding down for the year, right? The company sort of shuts down for a while. There's a certain mentality among some founders are like, you gotta you gotta be like grinding all the time, et cetera. We're more around How do we get people to like really dig this this mission and the purpose of like doing this kind of work and be here five years from now? Like we have we have such a a big focus on like balance and culture and putting people first that our team members stick around for a long time. Like we've been around for seven years, we've hired Probably a hundred and seventy five. total people over those seven years. We have one hundred and fifty five now. We've had like a

Ten or twelve leave, like seven of those to start new companies, three of them got into Y C, one of those like sold their company and came back to work on our product team. So it's and over the last four years, like one person per year has left. And I think that is because we like focus more on the long term. And I think it's required for the kind of product that we're building because for us to be truly successful, to be able to build a tool that builds other products and services, you can't do that overnight. You can't do that by building like verticalized solutions. You have to get all those core foundations. right so that it's it's almost like building a game engine that is like will last decades, right? You have to get those core primitives right. You have to get all the teams to work together. It's very hard to do that by just like throwing money at problems or like spinning up new teams. You have to build relationships, you have to build that communication path, you have to build kind of the ways that that other developers internally and externally are going to experience. So it just like that naturally needs time. That needs like time to adjust. Y C like hammered that out. Yeah. You gotta like launch, launch, launch and get get things out. And You know, you learn a lot from being in market. Yeah.

Yeah, the way I put it'cause anytime I run into that struggle,'cause when you work with really talented people, they have that inclination of like, Well, we're just shipping stuff too fast and it's like Not great and that makes me feel bad. I'd rather get it right and then ship it. And my answer to them is I believe the way to get it right is to ship it and then iterate on it when it's out there. If if you want to make it great, I agree with you, let's make it great. But the way to make it great is not to tinker with it ourselves and not show it to anybody for a long time. It's to give it to them and then figure out what's wrong with it in the real world and make it better. And sometimes it's not just what's wrong with it. My favorite story to tell about Y C about the value that they added was you know, I was a freelance web designer, I was working with my brother, I I kinda thought I knew what what we needed uh or what other people might be willing to pay for. So when we got into Y C and w as we were getting ready for demo day, we didn't actually want to launch with like pricing and you know, to charge customers which just wanted to show a demo. And what we thought was what we needed to ship in order to charge people was

That's professional, that's building for clients, is gonna pay for anything that doesn't have like blogging functionality. Like this is WordPress one oh one, right? Who would pay for this? And Y C was like if you don't ship something in the next two weeks and you don't charge for it, like one of the partners uh the one of the more uh like ambitious ones, like somebody's gonna probably kick you out of this program. Uh so we needed that kick in the pants. There was like this core set of users for whom it was life changing. Like it would they literally could now make a living because they didn't have to pay another developer. Because for them, what they were building for clients was like these single page landing sites or whatever, and they were building like able to build their own agencies. And for us that was a huge surprise of like holy crap. By the time we actually got to building our CMS, the thing that we thought we needed to launch in order to charge, we're already doing like one point five million in in AR. Yeah. Which was you know, for me a huge surprise. It was like a humbling moment to think like, hey, let let users and the market and customers decide. They'll tell you what's right, what's wrong. Exactly. Okay, I like that. And so you start to get this sort of steady growth and I like that you said you sort of m it sounded like to me one of your superpowers is that you're not impatient, which means you're patient.

Are you like this with all aspects of your life? Like do you you know, wake up at the same time, do you go to bed early? Do you just not like carbs? Uh you know, do you do you drive uh the speed limits? Like what's your does your life mirror that too, or you have some adrenaline junkie in you? I definitely don't have an adrenaline junkie. I love like certain things like snowboarding and which is like a a hit. of adrenaline uh for a little while, but mostly I'm a little more risk averse. Okay. You know, especially now with kids. I go in spikes. Like a lot of people will say, Oh, you know, you need like All these defined rituals, et cetera. I sort of go and every year is a little different, like I did a year without sugar, right? I was like on this anti-carb bend and then I figured out that that was not fun. Uh you know, it was just the and it was kind of in some situations like really pretentious, right? Oh, I can't do certain things or kids' birthday parties. That's when it's the the most. Right. And I I think generally I've settled on kind of a more stable schedule in terms of like going to sleep earlier. Like my wife sometimes laughs at me uh you know when I uh head into bed at like nine. Right. Definitely was more of a one AM type of thing before when in the earlier years. But you know, getting into work early

I'm usually in around like six or seven and having some time to just like focus on things, uh has really been helpful, but I I think I always adjust my Patterns and in in rituals. There's nothing I don't like wake up every morning and work out and meditate and all that serious Silicon Valley uh exact routine. Which now takes like sixteen hours. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So now have the company's at like a hundred fifty people Do you have like a CEO coach? Do you have like an exec coach? Yep. I've worked with a coach for a year and a half now. It's been really, really awesome. And tell me about it. So my coach's name's Michael, and the the biggest thing that I I work with them on is just interpersonal uh skills and uh kind of personal prioritization. So I think over the last year the biggest change for me has been uh focusing on a lot less, learning to say no to a lot of things, which overall sums up to being able to do things that might take an hour but are like a ten X sort of impact to webflow or to me personally or to my family versus doing ten things that you know add up to that same amount. It's just how'd you make that shift?

Reading a book called Essentialism? And it's essentially essentially uh the uh I think the byline of the book is the disciplined pursuit of doing less. And To me that was uh pretty life changing. I think Over the last year that was the most impactful book I've read. I I used to have this goal of like how do I read the most books, how do I get the most knowledge away. Exactly. Over the last year I've actually reread my two favorite books, which is Essentialism, I read it like three different times. There's Atomic Habits. I'm reading that right now. And this like the book that

Essentially Again, essentially Define My Leadership Principles, which is a book called Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek. I read that like three more times. Right. So I I've been focusing a lot more on sort of reabsorbing the things that have been the most value add to me rather than trying to get a lot more information. Yeah, when people uh talk about like I read faster now or I listen on two X speed, I'm just like that's awful. Uh not only'cause it just sucks to listen to something at two X, like if you're listening to this at two X right now, slow it down. Yeah. I did have that like I think uh a couple of years ago when I was really heavy into podcasts and audiobooks. It was, you know Two X, everything. If you're If you're starting to think in your mind like I'm gonna listen to music at two X speed too. You've ruined life. You've ruined the one pure thing, which is music. So so what I sort of feel about that, this is my opinion, of course. Could be wrong, but my opinion is that comes from this place of insecurity, which is like

Oh my God, there's I have so much to do. Don't have enough time. I'm gonna hyper I'm gonna go in hyper speed to try to essentially catch up. And it's sort of like a FOMO driven thing where I need to consume more faster so that I don't miss anything and I get to have more of it. And what you're saying has s served me really well. And the reason I say this is when you go slow and you read or reread or take notes or really just read something and then stop and think. How would I apply this to my life? Like am I doing this? I've gotten a lot more out of it. Yeah, I I think I've I've seen more and more of that, like Just Justin Conn has been Talking a lot more about this. The faster you go, you're never fulfilled. Thinking of all these sort of success metrics in your mind, whether it's reading books or starting companies or hitting like revenue milestones or whatever. All these things always unlock like the next thing that you're dissatisfied about. So I've been really encouraged by just uh, you know, getting to a l a level of contentment where you don't see sort of the outside world and the the speed at which it goes. Of course you have to like look at signals or like do things in a way that you know follow best practices, et cetera. But like seeing

kind of constantly judging yourself against what other people are doing, reading hitting like whatever goals they're hitting just ends up causing more and more uh kind of dissatisfaction and and to me going through that transition has been really really relieving even in the way that I used to think like okay, our company's not growing at the speed at which, you know, this hu like crews, right? They go from zero to a billion dollars in like two years or whatever. Like why can't we do that or whatever? And then seeing over time that, you know, every company's different

Every approach is different, every team is different. Like their product that have different needs than even like growth needs, right? Like you would fail as Uber or Lyft if you didn't grow that fast, right? because the competition would outpace you or whatever. Then there are other environments where like b you know being more methodical, being kind of like paying attention to customers, like pouring into your team, making sure they they have the resources to grow, even if it's slower. It Adds up to to being more beneficial in the long term. Every every person's different, but at the end of the day if you're always sort of chasing those kind of milestones and comparing yourself to others. I don't think you're ever gonna find contentment. Right.

And so How do you feel about all these other no code tools? Is there anything that you really like? Uh that you're like oh this this one's cool. If somebody wants to if somebody's new to the space, what should they check out? What's cool to you? Yeah. So the cool the Most awesome thing about no code, just the whole sort of philosophy and the space and the set of tools is that finally people who are makers, creators, builders, entrepreneurs, they have fewer barriers to to be able to say, I have this idea, I want to validate it in the market. You no longer have to sort of like do the laundry list of technologies that you have to know or people you have to hire. Right. And it's bringing that closer and closer to reality. And there's so many different tools in the space, like you know, you can go from like Zapier to Parabola to like Adalo to GlideApps and they all have sort of have like more nichey use cases, including webflow. Like Webflow is primarily used like marketing teams and

People are now starting to tie it with Zapier and like Integromat and all these like backend tools and sort of build like entire products and services. There's like bubble that ties a lot of these things together. Like A bunch of people start to make websites that kinda look like toys to a lot of people who are like professional in the industry. You know, not a lot is possible yet. So to me it's sort of like the more tools the better right now. Almost in the kind of like this sense of a rising tide lifts all boats, if we get more people to believe that you can actually you know, build for the internet, build apps, build software without some of these sort of barriers. To open it up from like every one I think the statistic is there's like twenty five million developers on earth that know how to code. So that's one out of every three hundred and thirty three people approximately. So if if we're going from zero point three three or zero point Let's say sub half percent of people building software and we can inspire another, you know, ten times as many, if not a hundred times as many, to be able to do that.

I think that's pretty magical. Like uh we don't know what people are gonna develop. We don't know what kind of ideas that are not being developed right now that are gonna make it out to market. And that's where the more tools the better. Right now. I think th naturally there's gonna be some consolidation. Naturally there's gonna be, you know, some companies that are like Kind of pigeonhole into exactly or or pigeonhole into like specific you know, there were there were some no co tools before that wanted to build all kinds of apps, and then they sort of like most of the customers were events so they ended up being like an event app building platform or whatever. But over time this is sort of like the early days of the web. where let's just see where where this goes. The the most important thing is that people are uh fundamentally inspired to do this stuff and believe that it's not a limiting thing. So early on when AWS first launched and you could say you don't have to learn how to rack your own RAID drives. You don't have to like order your own Dell machines. You don't have to like get the a network switch installed. A lot of the professionals in the field, uh especially like I IT or even like companies are like, oh this is never gonna be a thing. Right. Like y you you're never gonna be able to do like real workloads or build real products on those things. And it was more of a mindset shift over time that was proven by a lot of people people building lasting companies on these tools even though it was like dollar for dollar more expensive, right? But uh the things that unlocked were amazing. Like webflows built on A AWS, if it didn't exist, we'd have to like have a team twice as big probably. Right. So I think right now no code and visual software development is going through a similar journey where people are starting to believe like

Okay, this is gonna be like already real things are being built. Uh like products are going up on product time and like hitting number one. People don't even know that it's built with no co tools. People are creating companies and getting into Y C without engineers uh on these no co tools. So that's That to me is a really, really exciting uh time to be alive because it's just a lot of a lot of like really good vibes in this uh in this area and like a lot of people are starting to believe that that this is gonna be a huge thing. Gotcha. And g give me two no co tools that you could shout out that people should check out. That you know, this there's the name and here's what it does for you. Yeah. One of my favorites right now is Parabola. Um I've never heard of that. What does it do? So it's a It's a visual way to like do data transformation. So you give it let's say a spreadsheet and that spreadsheet can come from Airtable, from like Webflow CMS even. And then you have like this it's almost like a electrical diagram of like gates and uh fun it's like Yahoo pipes, if you've ever used Yahoo pipes back in the day, where you can like add something like let's say filter the data and run it through some you know some formula or whatever. And you can create like here's an example that that somebody built where you could take

Webflow blog posts. go through this whole like ranking algorithm where it pulls information from like SEO or whatever and then creates a an order based on popularity and puts it back into web flow. Like and that is completely done without code. You know you just sort of like have this diagram. It's like a visual uh way to express that stuff. And another one of my favorites is a company called VoiceFlow, which is a visual way to build Alexa apps and like Siri apps. Right. And it's the same thing. Like you're sort of you're empowering somebody that typically would need to figure out like the Alexa API to just drag and drop and say, when somebody says this, do this. When somebody says this, do this. And I think that layer of logic can be applied to way more than just uh like voice sort of conditionals. And over time we're gonna get closer and closer to building out you know something like an Airbnb or a Twitter program. Exactly. Like rebuild product hunt itself right in a no code tool, right? Where you're you're doing all the logic, all the database stuff, all the

Like uh visual components, all the kind of state changes, up voting, comments. Sounds like a good marketing idea for you guys. Exactly. Uh okay, great. And you let them on your your f block of flow. You let voice flow on your block. Yeah, there you go. That's nice of you. Yeah. I would be like hey, you need to uh you know look at this trademark I got in the mail ten years ago. It's like Facebook trademarking face or something. Yeah. We actually did have a trademark on flow at one point. And we just decided to let it go. Like hey, it's it's very forceable. But yeah, it's also, you know, we'll kind of be a A bad move to say like you can't use the word flow. Awesome. Uh okay, great. And so if somebody wants to get a hold of you, so obviously they should check out Webflow. If somebody wants to get a hold of you, where do they get more of your thoughts? Who should reach out to you, who you're looking to for to hear from? There's your chance to give people a chance to connect with you after this. Yeah. So for somebody that runs a company that builds websites. I actually don't have a website I used to have one, but I I need to get one up. I'm mostly just on Twitter, so you can find me at Call Me Vlad. Yeah, that's where I share a lot of my thoughts. Sometimes way too many thoughts. Yeah. And who do you like to hear from? What type of person or what in what context do you like to hear from people? Some people will say, you know, are you hiring? Great, that's one reason to get in touch with you. Do you like to invest? That's another reason to get in t in touch with you. What's a reason? I love

Right now just talking about no code to as many people as possible. Like s hearing their stories, what what people have built with it, you know, having conversations like this around getting more people to believe the power of visual software development. If you're trying to get a job at Webflow, it's definitely webflow.com forward slash jobs is your best bet. I'm no longer aware of everything that's going on there. And actually on principle stay out of those decisions because you know I want to empower my team to make the right call for for their needs. But mostly I just want I just want this this movement to take off. I wanna see who else is interested in making it happen. Like I know there's just the kernels of you know a lot of meetups. People are starting to do like training programs around this. I wanna be as helpful as possible. So if people wanna reach out for me uh to me uh around that stuff, I'd love to have a conversation. Right. Thank you for coming on, man. I I'm a long time fan of any product That's

And let other people make stuff. I think that's sort of Building a tool that helps other people make stuff is sort of one of the more high leverage things you could do with your life. And and like you said, you know, today a very, very small segment of the population has the opportunity to make their ideas come to reality. I know for many years I felt I'm not a programmer, therefore These ideas I have, they're gonna live and die in my brain. And you know, I started to solve that problem by working with engineers and hiring engineers and things like that. But I still to this day feel, you know, two steps removed from where I'd like to be where I can just be in flow. I could just be sitting at my desk and then tr translating my ideas and my brain into something real. And tools like Webflow are helping with that, but there's a long way to go. Like you know, my wife, my sister, I wanna see them basically I've heard them so many times talk about ideas that to them feel like pipe dreams because the bar to making something, you know, on the internet is is still too high. I think most people think it's very low. I think it's still way too high. And when you bring those creative people into the fray into an even playing field, you know, where they can make stuff too, I think you're gonna

I think the world will change in in a very fundamental way. And so I'm glad I'm glad you're doing what you're doing. Thanks, Sean. And by the way, it's never gonna be that easy to where you're like, Oh, I have an idea. And boom, two hours later, I have that product. The hard thing is still gonna be how do you how do you even quantify the idea? How do you like solve that user pain, you have to you're gonna have to be an expert in like you know, interviewing users, understanding your customer, understanding like how your product or service actually solves the problem, but as much of like sort of the back end piece we can get rid of. So you don't have to think of all the incidental complexity of how do I spin up a server? How do I you know like just empower people to do their best work. It's still going to be hard to build

The analogy to me is like you know, I was sitting down yesterday eating food and I was like man, not too long ago in history I would have had to go out there and hunt and forage to get this. And then we started Okay, now there's farms and then Today it's abstracted away where I don't even have to think. I push a button on my phone and the meal appears. And and of course this is just gonna keep going where, you know, people who love to cook will always cook, but you don't have to hunt, farm. cook in order to eat. And and I think that sort of when you remove those barriers, magical things happen. And that's what I see happening with creative projects as well is you know, the hunter gatherer days are over, but we're still in like the farm days. Yep. And and we're nowhere near the You know, the Postmates era where you where you push it where you want something, you push a button and it arrives. But you know, I think that's the inevitable of where this thing goes. So Okay, great. This was awesome. Thank you for coming. I appreciate this. All right, right on. Mm-hmm.

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