#503: Walter Isaacson on CRISPR, Jennifer Doudna, Gene Editing, and the Future of the Human Race

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for two hundred dollars off your pod pro cover. Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. And I also do a personal question. No, it is. a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal mental skeleton. No Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferris, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. You know, I haven't even noted that my standard intro

Says germs over and over and over again. That may be a bit of foreshadowing for some of our discussion today. Nonetheless, my job normally is to interview world class performers of all different types and And in some cases better still to interview people who have studied Many world class performers, and that is certainly the case today. My guest is

For the second time on the podcast. Walter Isaacson, Walter is a professor of history at Tulane, has been CEO of the Aspen Institute, Chair of CEN, and editor of Time. He is the author of many books, you will no doubt recognize. Leonardo Da Vinci, The Innovators, Steve Jobs, Einstein, subtitle His Life and Universe, Benjamin Franklin, an American Life. And Kissinger subtitled a biography, his co author of The Wise Men. Six friends and the world they made. His new book is The Code Breaker Subtitle Jennifer

Doubtna. Believe I'm getting that right. D-O-U-D-N-A, Gene editing in the future of the human race. You can find our first conversation from 2017 at Tim.blog forward slash Walter. He did a spectacular job. And you can find Much more about him at Isaacson I S A C S O N dot Tulane.edu. Walter, welcome back to the show.

Hey, it's great to be back with you, Tim. And I have no shortage of material. As usual, we covered a lot of your Personal biographical information. Uh many of your

practices, writing process, et cetera, in our last conversation. So I I won't spend a lot of time on that. People can listen to our first chat If they want to dive into those topics. But I'm going to ask a few questions before we get into Talking about CRISPR and Jennifer and so many other things. And the three questions are going to be

And these are my shorthand notes in front of me. Bio of Louis Armstrong. Why not? Then The second is Professor, and I may have asked you this already, but I want to ask again because I'm curious.

Professor Y, meaning how did you decide to On top of And in addition to everything else that you do, become a professor of history. And then third, just because I want to give people A teaser.

Chinese CRISPR babies how. So there's the why not the why and the how. So you you have so many books you have completed. I I honestly just am constantly impressed. At how much Not just work, but high quality. writing you produce. So I'm curious about the survivorship bias, right? So could you please speak to

The bio of Louis Armstrong or the the the would be bio of Louis Armstrong. Well any performance I have is comes from reading your books, Tim. So thanks. Thanks for having me on the show. I learn peak performance and I try hard to get up to about Ten percent of what you say I should be able to do. But sometimes you have to put something aside. Leonardo Da Vinci knew that, because he only finished twelve full paintings and put ones aside that he couldn't get Perfect.

And I had to do that once with a biography of Louis Armstrong. I'm here in New Orleans, my hometown. I wanted to write about the birth of jazz. And Louis Armstrong race and growing up in New Orleans in the early twentieth century. And I listened to all of the recordings he did, the tapes he did of discussions. I read all of his notes and his letters. I went to Corona, Queens, with the Louis Armstrong Museum. And after a while I felt

I knew Everything there was to know about Louis Armstrong Except for who he was. I didn't know why he was smiling. I didn't know if he's happy.

I didn't know if he really liked white people or, you know, whether his best friend who You know, is his white manager With somebody he didn't like. And I realize that if you cannot crack the code You're better off not writing the book.

Mm. Are there other subjects you've considered? I'm sure there must be. And begun to work on only to put aside. Like so many paintings of Da Vinci's.

Well, you know, I did Ada Lovelace, who in the eighteen forties and eighteen fifties comes up with the concept of the computer. algorithm. And she's the first chapter in the last chapter of my book, The Innovators. And I had tried or considered making an entire biography of her. I went to Oxford University with her letters. She was the daughter of Lord Byron, so her letters are part of the Byron papers there. But unfortunately, there just wasn't enough. to make a full length biography. So I used her as the framing device

For the innovators. We're gonna come back to Ada. I because I I I I want to Use that as a device for perhaps introducing a number of topics that will We'll we'll revisit later. But So we've checked the why not.

on uh uh Lou Armstrong and the bio thereof. Professor. Uh I'd love to just take a few minutes to chat about this. This is probably not where people are gonna start as they chat with you about the new book, but I would just love to know the thought process. How did that Come to be.

Since you have so many options on the table. You have so many things you could do. And I'm not saying it's a bad choice. I love students. I love teaching. I feel I learn more from them than they can learn from me. I have this incredible class at Tulane. uh of of students who uh study the history of the digital revolution. And by the end of the class they're teaching me more as I try to figure out, all right, do I want to join Clubhouse? What do we do on Discord? How can you create a social network for gamers? So I love the stimuliation.

you get from teaching students. Secondly. And this will happen to a lot of people. I was ready to go home. I was born and raised in New Orleans. My parents, my grandparents went to Tulane. I wanted to go back where I could, you know

Be part of my roots, get a little bit grounded again after a life of being, you know, it's CNN or Aspen Institute. And the way for me was to go home where I've known kids uh since kindergarten who are my close friends. to teach their kids and grandkids at Tulane. And

To help that. How can we make things better for the next generation? What is home? I know you answered this in part already, but what does home mean to you? Because for some people

Home is Say the first city outside of their birthplace where they reside for an extended period after college, for instance. Home can mean different things to different people. What is it what is it that keeps drawing you back? Well, I'm extraordinarily lucky'cause some people don't have a

particular birthplace or home that they're deeply connected to. But I wake up every morning with a l sense of gratitude in a way. That I have a community where I was born and raised that's still here in New Orleans and You know, they've known me since I was a kid. I've got a lot of family here. And New Orleans is a sity.

That is extraordinarily creative. As you know, I mean this is what your podcast is about. It's also got challenges, like every city. It's an incredibly diverse Shitty. And so I found myself coming home, especially after Hurricane Katrina, where I was asked to be The vice chair of the recovery authority after that storm.

And I realize How badly I miss New Orleans. But also how Immersing yourself in a place of great diversity with people Who have some frictions and challenge you

But also people have known you h your whole life, so you can't you know, you gotta be true to who you are'cause they'll cut you right down if you're not all of that. gave me a sense of grounding. And It also gave me the sense, which I think is probably the most important lesson, and you've written about it, but so many other people have. Which is

If you wake up every morning And realize how lucky you are. You will be A happier and more creative person. And that

And extend even to people who've had a whole lot of challenges in their life. And for me, when I wake up in New Orleans, I think Yeah. You know.

I'm lucky. The where of happiness, the where of feeling. at home as obvious as that might seem. It's just so

Under Estimate it. I I feel at least I underestimated it for decades, certainly. I felt like I should be able to B fill in the blank, fill in the blank in any location. What do you call home? You know. My home.

is not too far from you. It is now Austin, Texas it has been for the last three to four years now, probably closer to four years. And uh when we when we manage to navigate through this this current pandemic and get to some semblance of the other side of the tunnel, then uh we should have a proper cup of coffee in person. And very close to New Orleans, both spiritually and physically, in the sense that

They're both places with great music, great university towns, great diversity. And um you know great creativity. So I love going to Austin. I go there all the time. My brother went to U T. And Certainly during the hurricane Katrina we all evacuated there for a while. Well

You and I, if uh if I if I may be so bold, shall have shall have should have. May have. I would love to have a coffee or some point. It's been a it's been a while. It's been a while. And I'm glad you brought up music. Because New Orleans Showcases

A beautiful art form. That many know as jazz. And that is in a sense a byproduct of diversity of one might say randomness. of one might say mutation. So as a metaphor I think

that that will also play into A lot of what we discuss and That is my attempt at a segue to Chinese Crisper Babies. So What on earth?

Am I talking about? What do I mean by Chinese CRISPR babies? Are are we cook are we cooking babies? What is this? So two years ago In China A doctor. who had been to some of the seminars by my the hero of my new book, Jennifer Downer.

Decided to use this technique. that Jennifer Dowdner and her partner Emmanuel Sharpin invented For which they won the Nobel Prize in October. And that that technique is called Crisper.

And it's based on something bacteria have been doing for a billion years, which is keeping track of viruses that attack them. and then using a scissors to cut up those viruses if they attack again. Well you can imagine that's pretty useful in these days of pandemic. But what Jennifer Downer did was figure out a way to turn that Into a tool.

That can Edit. Our own Change. In other words, if you wanted to edit yourself

So that you didn't have sickle cell anemia? That could be done with this tool called Crispers. And it's already been done. The interesting thing. somewhat controversial, but in some ways very promising, is we can edit our children.

We can create what is sometimes called designer babies. By saying. when they're embryos, early stage embryos, or even reproductive cells. We can say let's take out the gene. That would allow you to get sickle cell anemia or hunting disease or cystic fibrosis.

So that our children Will be genetically Healthier. What happened two years ago is Is that for the very first time

In a way that was unauthorized. A scientist did that. He edited the embryos. Would turn out to be two Twin girls.

And edited out the receptor. That allows them To get the virus. That causes AIDS. And there was an immediate outburst of awe and then some shock.

Because the world wasn't quite ready. It's like Prometheus snatching fire from the gods, or Adam and Eve biting into the apple or something. The world wasn't quite ready. For us to be editing our children and creating designer babies. But that's what my book is about, which is When should we? Be allowed to edit.

Our children. When should we be allowed to add or take away genetic traits? From the human species. And when would that be dangerous to do so? Or perhaps even

Immoral. To do so. I love interviewing you. Man, you're so good at this. I just really enjoy it. And uh I uh thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's a work in progress. I'll I'll do it. The whole human species is a work in progress. Let's not forget that. And thank God I can edit my interviews so that I sound better. The double helix.

The double helix. I wanna talk about a little bit of your history first, and then we're going to make a very easy transition to the protagonist. of your story. When did you first Get exposed to the double helix.

The book. And what is this book, for those who don't know? When I was in middle school My father gave me a copy of of James Watson's book. The double helix.

I just found it recently down here in New Orleans. It has the pale red cover. It was published in the early nineteen sixties, and it's the description. Of how James Watson And his partner Francis Craig. Use some of the data by Rosalind Franklin and raced against people like Linus Pauling. To be able to

To discover The structure. of DNA. And it was like a detective story. It was about How does life work? What is the secret of life?

How do genes work? And I remember reading that and be I still f I look in the margins. I could probably sell it on eBay, it's a first edition of the book, but in the margin are all my, you know, childhood scribblings defining words I didn't know. Like Biochemistry. And I decided that's really cool. And ever since then I've had an interest.

And Understanding the d the joy of understanding how something works, especially when that something is Our own selves. So The protagonist.

The main character, as it were, you've chosen. Two Spend so much time on. How did you choose her?

Well Jennifer Dowdner With somebody I'd heard speak. out of the Ashman Institute, which I know you know well. And others about How

They had developed this tool. To edit. Human. Jeans. And how powerful it be in giving us, you know, healthier lives, fighting cancer, fighting

Coronavirus, it turns out. And how it can make our species healthier, but there were some dangers to that. And at one point I was talking to her. I said, How did you get interested in it?

And she said I you know, I was just in sixth grade growing up in Hilo, Hawaii. I was sort of an outsider'cause I was she's a tall, lanky blonde girl, but It was in a small village in Hawaii and everybody else was Polynesian. And so she felt kind of aloner. And she came home one day and

And she said, My dad had left on my bed. A copy of this book By James Watson? Call the double helix. And I went, oh wow.

My dad did that as well. And she said That's when I decided I wanted to become a scientist. I read about Rosalind Franklin in there and And I thought, wow, I didn't realize women could become scientists. And she asked our high school guidance counselor. And the guidance counsel said, no, girls don't become scientists. And that made Jennifer Down and decide that she would be.

A scientist. It also made me decide I was gonna write about Jennifer Downer because she did. What maybe I should have done after reading the double helix was say I want to be a research scientist. So

Two To just allow a preview of the other side of the coin. if we could and this is just how my mind works jumping around We've talked a bit about the

The possible promises Of Crisper. this gene editing pair of scissors that allows you to do wondrous things. Previously unimaginable.

What are some of the risks? You alluded to that. Is there a danger, for instance, of customized bioweapons that could be targeted at specific populations? Uh are there other things. that you could mention in brief as as real possible risks of this technology because it it is, as I understand it, at least. A

All things considered, very inexpensive accessible. Technology. It is not something that is uh relegated to the best funded governments, for instance. About a year after Jennifer Down uh developed this crisper.

gene editing tool. She had a nightmare. And the nightmare was that she had been asked to meet somebody who wanted to understand the tool. And she walks into the room and the person looks up. And it ate off. Yeah, look. And she realizes that if this technology

like almost any technology, falls into the wrong hands, it could be used for nefarious purposes. The ones you mentioned like military or obvious ones. You could make a virus Yeah, using CRISPR. Or some bacteria using CRISPR. That was even deadlier than the coronavirus that uh pandemic we're going through now.

You could create as Vladimir Hm mm. Said about a year ago. Super soldiers that are stronger and resistant to radiation. If you want to fight wars. So that's one thing.

That could happen. Another thing that could happen is is that we decide to make designer babies and design our children. And let's say that you and I decide we want to make sure our children don't have any bad genetic disease like cystic fibrosis or multiple sclerosis or Taysax or Huntington's disease or sickle cell. That's pretty good. You and I would say that's a good thing for us to be able to edit to make sure our children don't have that. But let's say at the fertility clinic they also say to you, W Do you want to make'em a little bit taller?

Or have muscle mass as an easy gene that at a certain point growing up start slowing down our growth of muscle mass. You could suppress that gene And have children that were much stronger. And then Maybe you could affect their memory.

To have'em have a much better memory. Or have'em you know, have blue eyes. You could change a lot of things. And that leads to a lot of questions. One of which is

Should we let the rich Buy better jeans. For their kids. 'Cause these offerings at the genetic supermarket They're not gonna be free.

And what would that do to the diversity of our species? You and I talk about the joy of wandering the streets. Of Austin, Texas, or New Orleans. And we see people tall and skinny, you know, light and dark and gay and straight and trans and all sorts of traits that they have. It's hard to edit some complex traits. But a few decades from now we'll be able

To edit out. Traits. that somehow or another we feel we're we don't prefer having in our children. Well that could be dangerous for the species and for our society. And for people who want to get a visual

On what it might look like. to use CRISPR to enhance muscularity. You can look up now this is not CRISPR derived necessarily, because Breeding certainly can achieve what Crisper does just takes a lot longer. The Belgian blue

Breed of Beef cattle. is bread for hyperplasia, which is increased number of muscle fibers. There may be some myostatin inhibition also, but people can look at that or bully whip it. If you want to see a whip it, you might envision a very skinny Tiny little dog. Very wiry, pretty neurotic looking. Not saying they're neurotic if you own one. And then you add

Twice or three times the muscle mass. It's Pretty Shocking, certainly impressive. To see and it's very Possible.

You know the gene For myostatin suppression. After a while, you know, the myostatin' reduces and so you quit building more muscle mass. That's a pretty easy gene.

To knock out. Using Crisp. And that's indeed what happens. With double muscling cattle. what you just described.

And so there are truly wondrous things we could do, especially You know helping people who have some disabilities. uh to make them stronger or better. So before we get scared about Christopher, we have to realize It can do.

Truly wonderful things just this past year. A woman named Victoria Gray living in Mississippi. a sickle cell anemia, the first time you've had a pure cure. Using

Crispers. This is A fantastic Introduction. in a sense connection to the question I was going to ask, because there are lots of athletes who who listen to this and many trainers and coaches and so on.

And that was whether CRISPR can be applied to adults or if it has to be applied at the embryonic stage or uh the very early stages of life and you seem to have just answered that. Let me tell you uh about a guy named Jason Zayner, by the way, who lives in Austin now. Move from the Bay Area of California. And he's a biohacer. And he has able to use CRISPR and, you know, sort of cooked it up in his own

lab. He's a PhD, but he does it, you know, in his basement as a biohacker. And he has created A way to use CRISPR to suppress a bit of the Myostaten issue. And maybe increase his muscles. did it live on a live stream video injecting himself with now it didn't really work. You can't do it with just one shot.

Бізвоно до зioneр. That shows what citizen science can do. And eventually, yes. Athletes could be able To help

Increase their muscle mass. Or for that matter, they're quick reflexes, the twitch muscles, all these sort of things. And so that's gonna be Interesting Uh, you know, we put a little asterisk next to, you know, uh McGuire or Kinseiko or people who use steroids.

But what if your genes give you better athletic ability? Do we go from admiring the athlete to Admiring their genetic engineer. And what if you could do that in your children? So they A boy. with genes that give'em faster muscle twitch or higher muscles and they can bend steel with their bare hands.

You know, that's going to be Both a great opportunity but also a real challenge. Good luck, anti-doping committees. This is gonna be very challenging. They're already resource constrained. Do not envy that. Uh boy, yeah, sports are gonna get very also with uh gender identity. I mean not to get into that topic, but sports are gonna become very, very Now, I'm not going to be able I I have

In front of me a note. And I'm just gonna give you a Fragment of it. That I would love for you to expand upon. And that is

The three fundamental kernels of our existence the atom, the bit, and the gene. Could I give that to you as a cue and let you run with it? When I was writing my books I thought of what are the great innovation revolutions? There have been three of them.

And they start with those fundamental kernels of our existence that were sort of discovered around 1900, which is the atom. And then the notion that all information can be encoded In binary digits, what we now call bits. And finally The gene.

And so when I wrote about Einstein, it was about innovation in the first half of the twentieth century. Based on the theories about the atom, everything from atom bombs to space travel to semiconductors to lasers. All come that innovation revolution. From That

discoveries of physics. The second half of the twentieth century when you and I were growing up Was the information technology revolution, the digital revolution. based on the encoding of all information in bits. The creation of computers that can manipulate those bits.

And the creation of an internet or network that could transmit. those bits. The next great revolution is now. And it's based On the gene. It's based on the fact that all of us and our kids who had to learn Uh digital coding.

We'll also have to learn. Genetic coding. Because the molecule is going to become the new microchip. It's going to allow us to innovate.

To fight coronaviruses. To edit our own genes. To fight cancer, I use Jennifer Downer as the central character to say what happens when we get to the third great revolution of our time. And it's based On

Us. our own molecules. Our own cells. our own genes. Do you hope this book will inspire

New generations of scientists in the way that the double helix did for Jennifer Dowdman. Is that one of the motivations? Absolutely. I would hope that people read this book. And they'll admire the nobility.

of what research scientists do. Of course, that was sort of a uh a goal of mine four or five years ago when I started working on it. Now after these scientists have created vaccines that are gonna get us out of this coronavirus pandemic. I think people are primed To say hey. I I admire people who are in the life sciences and figuring out

How we can create a healthier species. But I also hope, after reading the book, they might leave it on the bed of, you know, some student. in high school. and hope that they will be inspired.

To either love science, or maybe even be a researcher in science. Because there's a joy in figuring out how something works, especially when that something is ourselves So I want people to feel more connected to science.

I want them to feel less intimidated by science'cause sometimes when you're you know, don't like vaccines or you don't like the internet or whatever. It's because you don't You're intimidated by the mysteries of it. And so I wanna demystify it and show that real people like Jennifer Downer.

wake up in the morning and they do Simple. I mean CRISPR's pretty simple. It's just three components. They do simple experiments. And they're able to do things that will affect our lives. And I want people

who are ki you know, kids or raising kids to say You gotta be part not only of the digital generation, but the biotech generation. Even if you're not gonna be a scientist. You gonna have to be part of the conversation. That change. How are we gonna use

These new technologies to create vaccines to fight cancer to make healthier babies. What are gonna be the rules of the road? And in order to be part of that discussion, It's kinda helpful. To know.

What it's all about. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. The new year is here. And it marks a fresh start for your small business, whether you're shifting business hours or hiring more remote employees.

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Just a moment ago. Or you you uttered a line that I wrote down because I I quite like it, and that is the molecule will become the new microchip. And we're talking about biotech generations and perhaps the differences between what we consider coding education.

Or even just passing coding familiarity, knowing the the high level concepts. even if you are not a coder yourself. And it makes me think of a conversation. I'm not gonna mention this person by name because I don't think this was public, but Very well known co founder of a a large company everyone would recognize. who is very involved with conversations around the promises

Or potentials and threats of artificial intelligence. And before he has a conversation with anyone about AI He asks them if they I've studied computer science. Question number one. And number two, if they have kids. And if they can't answer yes to both of those, he just refuses to have the conversation. Uh because and the having kids is relevant because it I think forces

in many people a longer term. perspective and uh just a longer time horizon for considering the consequences of certain things. So If someone's I'm just saying uh this hypothetically f now or five years ago would have been put into

Sort of computer science one oh one. with learning who knows what. I'm not a coder, but you know, Ruby or Pearl or God knows what. language they end up. learning at some point.

What does the education look like for someone who wants to better understand the molecule? As the new microchip. Actually I think it's even simpler. I I think that the molecule and the life science are something we all more intuitively

understand. Certainly when you do computer science, it's not about Ruby or Ruby on Rails or Perl Script or anything like that. It's about the algorithm. It's about thinking. Sequentially step by step. logically so that you can do a computer program. That's the important thing you have to grok if you're are gonna understand how computers work.

But with the life sciences, with you know genetic coding. It's simply that you have to understand That We have three billion. Base pairs of letters.

in our DNA. You don't have to know them. You don't have to read, you know, the human genome project study. You just have to know. That certain segments of these

Encode what we call A gene. We're now able to map On our DNA. A lot of those genes.

The genes that do simple things like Cause sickle cell anemia or cause blue eyes. And the question becomes Logically. How can you

Do things. That makes use Of the molecules in our body. To create Things that we want.

Such as antibodies to fight. A virus. Or To stop. Your blood.

From creating sickle cells. That are dangerous. So I don't think you need to know the four letters of DNA or the similar but slightly different four letters. Of R and A. But you do need to know that DNA

Encodes our genes. And then RNA is actually the cooler molecule. It actually does some work. It doesn't just curate information. It takes that information and goes to the manufacturing region of our cells. And builds A protein. And you say, okay, what type of proteins do we want?

Anybody's for a virus? Let's build that. Proteins that will make our blood healthier. Let's do that. And so just this general concept.

of how our bod. I think it's useful whether you're an athlete or creative person Or just somebody who wants to be part of society. And it's not that complicated. You don't need to know a whole lot of Boolean algebra or math. In order to do

Life science is You just need to know this central dogma of biology. That our genes Turn RNA into worker bees that build proteins in our cells, okay.

Now what are we gonna do with that? I think many of these Toolkits, right? Whether it's familiarity with the algorithms, right? And some respects the recipes of computer science or those types of technologies and then sort of biochemical or genetic fluency, I think that those will very often go

increasingly hand in hand, right? I I I was looking at a list earlier today from two thousand seven, which was uh one of those lists you see a lot, right? The hundred greatest living geniuses. And this is from two thousand seven, one must keep in mind because we have someone, at least one, has passed away. I think Tim Bernersley is still With us. The first place This is from the Daily Telegraph. So think what you may of the Daily Telegraph. The the the first place

position was tied between Tim Berners Lee Who is I suppose best known as uh computer scientist who uh was one of the adventures or co inventors of the world wide web.

Brilliant man. And yes, he is still living, I just confirmed. And Albert Hoffman. A name people may not recognize who was the first person to synthesize LSD twenty five, also psilocybin. And many other things like hydrogen, which is used for cognitive function and age related Dementia. So you have a computer scientist and a chemist side by side. And

I think that's just gonna increasingly be the case. You mentioned proteins, we're gonna have protein folding and how proteins fold is a is a big problem that that computers do very well with. But let's let's move to the personal Jennifer Dowdner. There are a few phrases that I picked out of what you said and Nobility of scientists. So there are noble scientists and then there are ignoble scientists. Simple experiments. What made what makes

Jennifer. Special. Right because there are a lot of scientists and just like in the f in the field of medicine where like P equals M D is a joke among a lot of my doctor friends, pass equals Medical doctor, in other words, there's the kinda good, the bad and the ugly. So what makes her special?

You know, you write a lot about performance and creativity, and I have found that the simplest component of it is curiosity. Yeah, Jennifer Dowdner was persistently Obsessively and joyfully curious. Even growing up in Hawaii, she'd touch a piece of what's called sleeping grass and it would curl up. And she kept wondering. Why does that happen? Why does it call and she'd look at the spirals of the seashells and she'd say

How does an animal create that? And when I saw that she was doing that, I realized Leonardo da Vinci did the same thing with spirals and shells and curls and trying to figure it out and you can see it even in the Mona Lisa, her curls. So that Curiosity about everyday things, like I'm looking out now in New Orleans and there's the bluest of blue skies. People who are curious say, Well why is the sky blue?

Leonardo da Vinci asked that, Einstein asked it. And Jennifer Downer asked questions like that. So Not outgrowing our wonder years. Being able to stay relentlessly curious. That's what caused Jennifer Dowd to keep saying All right, I've just seen this thing.

But how does it really work? What's inside? Of our bodies, of our molecules, of our cells. That causes This to work.

And she discovers some of the klues. Of how things work, one of which is The structure of molecules. How the structure of R and A Allows it.

To build. Certain. Proteins. And so I think if I were to say, how can you be creative as a scientist, or for that matter, as a musician or athlete, it would be Be curious about everything, all walks of life, arts and sciences, technology and the humanities. That's what Steve Jobs did. He had one foot in the arts and

Another foot in technology, and he did not make a distinction. Between those two. That's what Leonardo's Vitruvian Man is about. It's a work of art. And it's a work of science. And he didn't make a distinction between those two. And for Jennifer Downer

She doesn't make a great distinction between the life sciences and And the humanities. And by being curious about all things. She's able to see The patterns in nature.

I I'd love for you to To comment a bit more on this particular species of curiosity. Uh Uh and the reason I ask is that There are many scientists out there.

And there are many diligent, hard working scientists out there. But very few. are able to achieve what Jennifer and her collaborators have been able to Achieve. Furthermore, I'd I would say that

Uh Science is great for a lot of things. The scientific method is excellent for testing hypotheses. It doesn't really offer you a fail safe way of generating good hypotheses, right? So was she just asking better questions? I'd love to hear you comment on any Or all of that.

She asked better questions, but most importantly She cared about curiosity. driven science. Basic scientists. Sometimes scientists and for that matter people in the world of tech

are always keeping their eye on the application. How can I make something useful out of it. How can I make money out of it? My book is about a group of scientists Who discover The natural phenomenon of CRISPR.

Which is just A basic science curiosity which is Hey. I've looked at bacteria. And they have clustered

Repeated. Sequences in their DNA. That's hard to explain. Those clustered repeated sequences Get dubbed CRISPR. Nobody was looking. To create a gene editing tool. And initially they weren't looking for things like how do we protect yogurt uh cultures from being attacked by viruses, although it turns out to be useful for that.

They were driven by curiosity. Sure. Curiosity. To pursue Basic science.

And then The applications follow. One day Jennifer Downer has finally cracked the code. Of how Crisp.

Works. In bacteria to fight off viruses. And she makes it work in a test tube. So that it can cut. A piece of DNA.

At a designated spot. That experiment was done just out of Basic science research curiosity. But the minute they succeeded. They looked at themselves in the lab and they said

This could be a tool. To edit our genes. So the advice is Don't always look for how it's going to be applied. Be curious about the basic science. And at some point

the usefulness and the applications will follow. You have Written about. Profiled. Acted as biographer of

Quite a few people. If you had to Compare Jennifer to previous subjects. Who is she most similar to and in what ways? She's most similar to Benjamin Franklin because she's curious about a wide variety of things, but then also and here's a key part of the book.

Uh right about At a certain point after she has a nightmare about uh Adolf Hitler. She becomes En meshed And

Understanding the moral and s and policy. implications. Of what she's done. So like Benjamin Franklin, she's interested in basic science.

But she's also interested in policy. She's interested in governance. And She connects. Science unless you remember.

Ben Franklin was a great scientist. I mean, he discovers the single fluid theory of electricity. But having understanding the balances and checks and balances in Newtonian physics and in electricity and the plus minuses and ledgers. He helps create

Constitution. that will hold together for centuries based on checks and balances. Jennifer Dowdner also applies Her science and her discoveries. to how is it going to affect

The human species And to our national society. And so that's why I and she's also just a good person. She's joyful. She really cares about other people. Some of the people I've written about have been a bit uh strong cups of tea. But I think Jennifer Downer and uh Ben Franklin would sit there over a glass of uh

L or a Uh mug of beer. And they would laugh. And they would tell jokes. And they would understand the foibles.

of their fellow human beings. But they would love him. And so I I would love if I could have a dinner party to have Jennifer Dowden and Ben Franklin there. Uh all right, we're we're gonna come back to that because I I would like to know.

And and this is just a bookmark, so we're gonna come back to this, but if Jennifer. is competitive in any particular ways that make her more similar to, say, a jobs than a Franklin. I don't know the answer to that, but I'd be curious to explore the nature of scientific competition and how that factors into the story. But before we do that, I have some cleanup to do We mentioned Ada Lovelace. earlier I said I was gonna come back to her, so I I do wanna do that.

Very quickly,'cause it may Relate to other things we talk about. In our first conversation, I think the wording That came up was that Ada Lovelace pushed yourself to understand that a mathematical equation is just nature's brushstroke for painting something in reality. I think that is roughly the wording, which is just incredible.

And What I don't think we talked about, which may or may not be relevant to things in this conversation, is Ada Lovelace's objection. And how it contrasts with, say Alan Turing.

Is is that something you could speak to? Yeah, Alan Turing in his famous paper, Can Machines Think? Which was written a hundred years after Ada Lovelace published her notes on the analytical engine. Ada Lovelace says Machines will be able to do anything.

That can be notated in symbols. So be able to process music and words and numbers and Patterns. They'll be able to do everything except for originate. Thought.

They won't be able to be creative. And the purpose will be To marry our machines. to our own human creativity. So she didn't believe in the pursuit of what we call artificial intelligence. She didn't believe that would be as

Fruitful. as a pursuit of what we now call augmented intelligence, the symbiosis where we connect. machines. And humans. More closely.

And I think that's because She was the daughter of Lord Byron, but she was a mathematician. So she had a poetic sensibility. Where she could look at a line of her father's poetry like She walks in beauty like the night. And visualize it.

But you could also look at an algorithm or mathematical sequence And visualize it as well. And so this ability to connect the humanities. to technology.

That's what she's the patron saint. Uh. So she feels we aren't going to get artificial intelligence. We're going to try to get the symbiosis of human machines to create augmented intelligence. Allen Turing is the other school of thought.

He refers to that as Lady Lovelace's objection. And his paper, his famous paper, I think published maybe in nineteen fifty in Mind magazine, is Soon we'll have an imitation game test. And we'll be able to show that machines can think. In a way that's indistinguishable from the way humans can think.

Now you all can debate, all your listeners can debate that. I'm not sure we have an answer. I'm not sure fifty years from now we'll have A clean answer. to those questions. Oh boy, that's that could be a whole nother podcast. Maybe it will be. Uh so thank you. Thank you for thank you for answering that. And it does connect to the sort of cross disciplinary, interdisciplinary lens through which you have

attributed to Jennifer Doubt and before we go specific to Jennifer and and her story and and talking about competition and where sort of scientific races figure into this. I just want to ask a question more broadly about curiosity because it's it's one of those

It's one of those words that I think can probably I haven't done this, but it could probably be pars into very different types of curiosity and you mentioned asking why. And there are people who are very good at asking why and do it in very productiva. There are investors I know who ask why three times, just as a matter of course. That is just their policy if they're talking to a startup founder. to uncover assumptions. That's why they ask why. Then there are people who ask why

from a not necessarily skeptical perspective, but a cynical perspective. Right and and those lines of argument. Don't often. Or I shouldn't say don't always lead

Yeah. And when you're speaking to Ada Lovelace in poetry. I couldn't help but wonder, and this is a leading question, of course. Does the common breed of curiosity that we observe and say in Ada.

Or a Jennifer or a Ben Franklin. Entail a necessary seeking of wonder or awe. Is there a motivation behind the curiosity? That is shared. I think

It's a seeking Of wonder. As you said. And most importantly It's an open

Minded. Inquiry. As Ben Franklin would say, let the experiments be made, as Jennifer Dowden did. It wasn't trying to To prove. Some pre existing hypothesis

It was Let's follow the facts and then Let each experiment we do Information. how we're going to test.

Something out. We have lost that ability which is at the core. Of both the scientific Method And of the enlightenment that helps create this country.

Which is Be open minded. Don't Have a preconceived hypothesis that you're trying to prove. Have a sense of wonder. And a curiosity

To see Where the facts lead you. And that's how Ben Franklin makes a list of all the facts he's discovered about sparks. And all the things he's observed about lightning. And figures out.

The lightning rod. And that's how Jennifer Dowdner looks at this. Mysterious way that back. Curious. Fight?

Virus attacks. And says. Let me figure out. Why? Does it

Work. And I I wanna underscore how important this is. Uh and I s I say that speaking as someone who has had to learn this over time. With respect to basic science. And as someone who funds a lot of science right now, a lot of scientific research. That

It is sometimes a mistake to be in a rush to force the application or to insist on an application. Those applications Some of the most important discoveries that have ever been made in human history. And gene editing CRISPR may certainly be one of them.

have come about as as emergent from basic science. I just think that's so important from a funding perspective, from a Sort of scientific literacy perspective. So I'm really glad we're talking about it. So let's talk about something a little uh more I don't want to call it crass.

But uh human competition. Jennifer and Is it a manual? Am I getting that right? The Manual Sharpener, yes. Go from observation to

to In a sense having in their hands. A tool. And whether they are motivated or not by prestige or money.

They're smart enough to realize that they are sitting on something. Very, very potentially important and massively impactful. Can you describe

the race that it that ensues. I love competition, just like most of your listeners probably do, and I think competition spurs us. To go faster, aim higher. Do amazing things. And part of competition is racing.

Both to get the credit for something. And sometimes to get the intellectual property, the patents for something, so that you can fund your research. So when Jennifer Dowden and Emmanuel Charpentier discover that this system bacteria have been using to fight viruses can be used as a tool by us to edit our own genes. They get into a race, or Jennifer Dowdney gets into a race.

With other scientists. To say, okay. Let's show how we can do that. In a living human.

Shell. 'Cause she had done it in a test tube. The question is Will it actually work if we try to do it? In the shell of a living. Being

Like us. And the p the strongest competitors Uh Jennifer Dowdner? at Berkeley on one side. And this wonderful guy named Fong Zhang Born in China, but raised in Iowa, and has sort of a corn fed smile and enthusiasm. And he's at the Broad Institute.

of MIT in Harvard. And so for six months. They, along with some other scientists, Race. To see who can be the first.

To prove. And this amazing new tool. Well actually work. In human cells. And Fong Jang wins the race by about a couple of weeks. In other words, he publishes in January twenty thirteen and Jennifer Dowdner publishes at the end of January twenty thirteen. And they've been locked in a patent battle.

Ever since. And people say, Isn't that horrible? I say no. This is why competition spurs us to do good things. But here's something cool. Both of them have a turn their attention in the past year to using

These technologies To fight. The coronavirus. Just like bacteria use it. to fight viruses. They use it to detect

The virus. And this time around they're racing to publish papers on it. But they're putting'em in the public domain. They're allowing people to use whatever they discover, if they're using it to fight. The coronavirus. So sometimes you have to be competitive.

Sometimes you have to be cooperative. Sometimes you have to try to Invent things that you get, you know, the Patents too.

And sometimes you put things in the public domain. There's no one easy answer. And I hate people have knee-jerk reactions that they hate all patents, or they think all patents should be enforced forever. It should be like in your town of Austin and all when Texas Instruments does the microchip. And Bob Noyce does a microchip.

Eventually they shake hands and say, Let's make this useful for the world. So I I'd love to Just of points I think that surfaced in in what you just said.

One of them relates to scientific funding. For people who don't know, performing science i can be extremely expensive. It very often is extremely expensive. It takes a lot of money. And one of the mechanisms by which scientists can fund their Research because it requires funding. Requires people, requires space, requires tools very often. is with technology transfer. So within universities, many universities certainly at places like

uh M I T, Harvard, et cetera, you will have technology transfer offices and the university will license technologies. And if The researchers involved have intellectual property, they're sometimes able to take a portion of those proceeds. And

use it to allow them to continue their research or do new, expanded, more ambitious uh studies and research. So I just wanted to to mention that. Uh profit is not always a bad thing. Money is not always a bad thing. In fact, it is most often a necessary component of Of of scientific breakthroughs in this day and age.

We would not have vaccines. Against Coronavirus. Had there not been a race to understand How R and A.

Can be a messenger in our body. to make protein, something that everybody from Jennifer Downer to a group at the University of Pennsylvania Did so well is figure these things out. And Figuring it out is not something you can do in a dorm room, like inventing Facebook or inventing, you know, an algorithm for Google or something. It's something that takes a lot.

of lab space and a lot of investment. So we have to have a system In which Discoveries are used for the common good. But also People can

Benefit From having made discoveries and use the proceeds In order to fund their research. You're here. Yeah, humans, prison company included.

Respond to incentives. Human behavior in a lot of ways is the study of incentives. And Animal behavior, any behavior really. And it's important to recognize that the scientists also need resources. I try very hard to say what are those motivations. Now look at Jennifer Dowden and Fong Jang and the others who have done it. And I don't think money is the main motivator, but it does fund the research. I also think you know, acclaim. People just want people to say, Wow, congratulations, you did something. Or better yet, give them the Nobel Prize for having done something. That

motivates them as well. But the thing I've discovered about the scientists in this book Is that they're also just motivated By curiosity. And the belief.

That science is a noble endeavor. It will make our lives better. And I believe that sort of at the beginning of the book. But then when I watched the coronavirus hit And I watch how people have been cured of

Things like sickle cell anemia. By CRISPR, the gene editing tool. I realize that more than most people Scientists Have a

Whole group of motivations. But that noble endeavour. It's certainly One of the main ones.

I'd love to Come back to Covid. Or more accurately. Two Pandemics.

For a moment. And sort of do a retrospective And then Perhaps explore a bit. of forward looking subjects.

The Please correct me if I'm wrong. Have you interviewed the author of the Great Influenza subtitle The Epic Story of the Deadliest Plague in History? Not only have I interviewed him, I live here in the French quarter, and if I craned my neck enough, I'd see John Barry's house, I'm on Royal Street. He's actually a couple of blocks away, I think on Bugundy Street. But I run into John all the time. Just ran into him when walking back from the gym in the French quarter. So I love John Barry's work. It's great narrative history.

What have you learned? from him or his his work. I know that's a very broad question. But What are some of the the insights or counterintuitive learnings or memorable points that come to mind when I ask that question.

When I read about the nineteen eighteen pandemic that epidemic that John Barry wrote about The first thing I marvel at is How little things have changed. I mean, there they are trying to call off parades in Philadelphia or wearing masks and getting people to wear masks and social distancing. The same sort of things we've been wrestling with. For the past year. But the thing that impresses me now

Is that We've invented A new type of vaccine. Back in nineteen eighteen Vaccinations were pretty rudimentary.

Uh, you know, they were done the same way that Edward Jenner did a century earlier, which is to give you some facsimile of the virus or bacteria you were trying to fight. See if your antibodies would Do so. But now Along with people like Jennifer Dowden and other codebreakers, we've invented a way to have RNA.

Tell ourselves. Build. These Antigens that will fight the virus. So suddenly

We've had a quantum leap. So that the human species in its Hundred thousand year war against viruses. Now. Suddenly.

is taking the lead and might be able to beat back pandemics in the future. Let's hop not to continue to bring it back to this, but to So they're moral concerns. You mentioned Downna and her dream of of of Hitler. And I mentioned Albert Hoffman earlier, who synthesized LSD was the first to

Consume it as a synthetic, at least. And the title of one of his books was LSD subtitle My Problem Child. And uh he he had He had a lot of thoughts on the applications and misapplications. Uh, certainly that's true for a lot of the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project and And uh nuclear weapons. What scenarios

Or possible Events. He Jennifer up at night. Or sit in her mind.

If you know or could speculate. Yes, there's a whole Part of my book, the last quarter of my book, besides dealing with fighting the coronavirus, deals with Jennifer Dowdner and her Friends and colleagues. Raffoy.

with what are the moral implications. And as with any technology, whether it be the atom bomb or Facebook, You know, how we use that technology can be for good. Or for bad. And so Jennifer Dowdner Is wrestling with

How do we make rules of the road and guidelines that we can agree to internationally. She creates summits of a scientist internationally to say, Here's how we're going to use it for the time being, at least. And they've agreed to certain rules, which is You only can should use it when it's truly medically necessary.

In other words, If it's the best possible way to fight Huntington's or sickle cell anemia and that's medically necessary, Then it makes sense to use it. But you don't use it. But

unnecessary enhancements like let's make our kids taller or let's change their hair color. And I think as we go along we're going to have to feel our way. Which is why in the book I spend Time.

Looking Step By step. how they've gone through the different moral issues. And then having our own thought experiments where we can figure out

What would happen if we went into a fertility clinic? And they gave us A menu. of things we could choose. What would we choose?

And then think about the downsides if everybody gets or all rich people get to make those choices. So it's not Uh, you know, a one sentence answer for how should we use this technology. It's going to be something that over the next twenty years. We and our children and our grandchildren gonna have to appreciate how cool and wonderful

Genetic editing can be. But also Well you have to have a Some guidelines. Do you have any thoughts or have you heard any thoughts on how we can create guidelines that are actually

enforceable in a sense. And you know, I don't want to so I don't want to sound too much like you know Hobbes and Leviathan or anything like that, but in contrast to some of my friends, I tend to have a a skeptical view of of the altruistic default of human nature and I I I'm I'm very interested in how we can create sort of systems instead of depending on best intentions because there's so many motivations that can warp best intentions, even the best of intentions. Do you have any thoughts on what maybe instead of guidelines, guide rails Can be established in in any way.

I think it's gonna be hard to enforce. too many guidelines because unlike the atom bomb, which I could not make in my basement or even in my Tulane University labs or something. CRISPR is something that is relatively easy to do. As we said, the rogue scientists in China did it two years ago and edited the embryos of babies. And even I went to Berkeley to Jennifer Dowdner's lab and have a chapter. What I am taught How to edit.

The jeans. of a human cell. Yeah. Lest you worry about it. Once I finished, we flushed it down a drain with a lot of chlorine, so I didn't create some Frankenstein's monster. But it's something any graduate student in biology could do, and eventually we'll find ways to deliver those edits. More safely into human beings.

So it's going to be hard to enforce it. But they're things that are hard to enforce, whether it be the trafficking in elephant tusks or for that matter, sex trafficking, or shoplifting, or running red lights. But as societies We find ways not that we can ban it entirely. But we find ways to make it something that's illegal to do, is hard to do, is shameful to do.

And a few people might break those laws. But at least we can keep it under control. And I think that's what we're going to have to do. With the Bad uses of gene editing technology. And that's what Jennifer Downet wrestles with. How do we create those guidelines

And try to find some ways we can have some good enforcement of. If you had to choose An aspect of the book. An aspect of this technology or the story. That

you think people might not pay enough attention to. Right. There's certain things that I think no doubt you communicate very, very clearly. And uh perhaps there's something that You worry people might miss because it's not a huge feature in the book, but nonetheless very important. Is there anything like that?

The big thing I fear that people might miss is that if you don't read the book, you might have a knee jerk reaction. Just like people have to genetically modified organisms or, you know, food or corn that's uh been genet you know, GMOs, those type of things. And it's fine to have a strong opinion. about GMOs.

But it's also useful to know what a gene is before you have such a strong opinion. And I would hope that people keep an open mind. Just like Great.

scientists and great people who are curious and creative. They keep an open mind. Because there are both good and bad things that can come of this, but mainly Good things. And so we shouldn't have a knee-jerk reaction and say

Oh, this is horrible. We're playing God, we're messing with mother nature. Well, you know If you want to talk about playing God Nature and nature's God have created a species That has evolved enough.

To learn how to influence its own genetic evolution. And that species is us. So This is natural.

That we have learned these things. And we shouldn't have knee jerk reactions to it. Based on not understanding it. And so I hope people will reserve judgment.

On what type of genetic editing, what type of vaccines What type of uses we should do with our molecules in order to fight viruses. Not have a knee jerk reaction until you see the wonders. of the exploration and keep an open mind about how the technology can be used for really great

Things like alleviating suffering. And also potentially be used by people with less good intentions. And I would add to that Thank you for saying all that and answering the question. And I would add to that that

Whether you like something or not is oftentimes kind of irrelevant. In the sense that if it is and it is not going to go back to is not, then Particularly when it has the Culture shaping it. Arch of

history bending potential of something like this. I feel like it is Certainly helpful. And in some ways incumbent upon us to have a basic understanding.

Uh if we can. develop such an understanding uh of of something like CRISPR. I mean I i it is Not to overstate the case, but I th I think we will look back at this Kind of.

With that Promethean. perspective that you mentioned earlier. Absolutely. This is the most important Invention.

of our time. I think. The ability To edit our genes. And to program our molecules to do things like

Create Immunity. The viruses. And Like any technology, it can be used.

Well good. Or for bad. And I think. We have to

understand it. So that we can all have a conversation. About it. And We should be open to the beauties and the wonders of

That got us there. Uh you know, sometimes uh Our moral thinking has trouble with Keeping up. with our discoveries.

That happened with the atom bomb. And then we had to say, okay, now let's wrestle with it morally after we dropped it twice. That frankly in my mind has happened. With social networks. Where

It kinda got ahead. Of our moral thinking about how can these best be used to connect us to as a society So If we're going to keep

Our moral thinking. Aligned. With our New discoveries and innovations. We have to understand.

those new discoveries and innovations. And we have to Know the story behind them. We have to ask the question that you ask all the time. Which is why. Why yeah. It's And why not?

Also, it it's it strikes me that you know never before Have the questions of philosophy that might have been considered entertaining thought exercises for freshman philosophy one oh one. Never before have they been so incredibly important and of practical implication.

If you look at AI, if you look at programming autonomous vehicles to Say. Have to choose between hitting Two children on the sidewalk versus three adults in the road. That is a decision that this car, you know, the programming needs to Be able to

Make. And uh with Crisper. Similarly, many of these philosophical questions. Are no longer Abstract.

discussions over a bottle of wine, they they actually uh are pressing. In some respects. I think These are the questions we're gonna have to face in the next twenty years. So it's good to start understanding How it happened now.

And I love the fact that you say it's not just questions of why. But also questions of why not. When I was writing this book as I got near the end, and when Jennifer Downer was thinking through the moral issues, she not only asked why would we do something like that, but But after a while When people who have kids with you know

problematic genetic defects or horrible uh you know conditions such as Huntingtons or Uh sickle cell. She'd say well Why not fix it?

Wouldn't we consider it immoral? not to be using This new technology. So we don't have to just ask why would we use the new technology, but sometimes we s have to say Why not?

Wouldn't there be something morally wrong? About. Not helping to cure people. Even if it means We're doing it through genetic editing.

Walter. I think this is uh A great place to begin to wrap up. I always have So much fun. in our conversations and uh

Is there is there anything that you would like to Add any closing comments. Questions to pose to my audience, requests to make of my audience, anything at all that you'd like to To add before we Slowly wind this to a close.

I think the one request Yes. To help. Get Everyone.

To understand the nobility And the beauty. Of science and open inquiry. But then also Being able to walk into the future.

Into this mysterious new room we're about to enter, the With a sense of hope and optimism. So that we can figure it out step by step. Cautiously so it doesn't become a slippery slope. Slopes are less slippery if we do it step by step.

Hand in hand. And I think that's what we're gonna have to do. As we watch This new Biotech revolution.

Help us make our own molecules. into microchips that we get to program. Walter Isaacson, I want to take your class, sir. You my class is online. It's on YouTube if you can find it. We will link to it. We've got it. I'll come to Austin too, and we'll hear some good music. We'll eat some good food. We'll have a home and away games. I'll listen to some Austin music and you can You can come hear some funk and jazz here in the French Quarter. I would love that. And Walter Thank you for the time.

Your newest book for everyone listening is The Codebreaker. Subtitled Jennifer Dowden A Gene Editing and the Future of the Human Race. You can find Walter at Isaacson.tulane.edu. And uh Yeah.

That the gumbo and some coffee and some music is a date. Good, sir. Thank you very much. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com, that's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

This episode is brought to you by ASleep. My god am I in love with ASleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than 30% of Americans struggle with sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep, and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, putting it back on, and repeating ad nauseum. But now I am falling asleep in record time, faster than ever. Why? Because I'm using a simple device called the Pod Pro Cover by 8 Sleep. It's the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pair dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced, but most user friendly solution on the market. I polled all of you guys on social media about the best tools for sleep enhancing sleep and uh Aidsleep was by far and away the crowd favorite, and people were just raving fans of this. So I used it and here we are. Add the Pod Pro cover to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55 degrees Fahrenheit or as hot as 110 degrees Fahrenheit.

It also splits your bed in half, so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. My girlfriend runs hot all the time, she doesn't need cooling, she loves the heat, and we can have our own bespoke temperatures on either side, which is exactly what we're doing. Now for me and for many people. The result, eight sleep users fall asleep up to 32% faster, reduce sleep interruptions by up to 40%, and get more restful sleep. overall. I can personally attest to this because I track it in all sorts of ways. It's the total solution for enhanced recovery so you can take on the next day feeling refreshed. And now my dear listeners, that's you guys, you can get$250 off of the Pod Pro cover. That's a lot. Simply go to 8Sleep.com slash Tim or use code TIM. That's 8 all spelled out. E-I-G-H-T Sleep.com slash Tim or use coupon code TIM T-I-M. eatsleep dot com slash Tim

or$200 off your Pod Pro covering. This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a brand new cereal that I eat just about every day that is low carb, high protein, and zero sugar. I just ate a huge bowl of their cocoa flavor. about an hour ago, after a short workout. Magic Spoon cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time magazine included it in their list of best inventions of 2019 and Forbes called it the future of cereal. It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal from childhood, remember that? But it's actually good for you. Each serving has 11 grams of Protein, 3 grams of net carbs, 0 grams of sugar, and only 110 calories. It's also gluten-free, grain free, keto friendly, soy free, and GMO-free. All the things. It's delicious. And I don't say that lightly because most of this healthy version of X stuff is not delicious, but these guys really nail it. Magic Spoon has nailed it. It comes in your favorite traditional cereal flavors like cocoa, frosted, and blueberry. You can try them all by grabbing a variety pack at magicspoon.com slash Tim.

Or you can just grab a box or a bunch of boxes, I'm gonna order some more today, of the cocoa, which is my personal favorite, but there is a new contender for favorite flavor because they just launched two limited edition flavors, honey nut and peanut butter, which are delicious. I am a sucker for peanut butter and uh it is outstanding. So I think cocoa. and peanut butter are my two new favorite flavors. And fun fact, my friends are also obsessed with Magic Spoon, one of the podcast's most popular guests, Dr. Peter Tia, routinely crushes six to seven servings at a time. That's a lot. With no glycemic response, he's looked at this with a glucometer. He likes it so much he invest it. Other friends, two very fine gentlemen and also past podcast guests, Kevin Rose and Ryan Holiday, also invest it. So go to magicspoon.com slash Tim to grab some delicious cereal and try it for yourself today. Use promo code TIM at checkout to save$5 off of your order. And Magic Spoon is so confident in their product, I have boxes and boxes and boxes. It's backed with a 100% happiness guarantee. So If you don't like it for any reason, they'll refund your money no questions asked. Get your next delicious bowl of guilt free cereal at magicspoon.com slash Tim and use the code TI to get$5 off.

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