Bobbi Brown Cosmetics: Bobbi Brown (2018)

Hey everyone, just a quick heads up that we've got a bonus episode coming your way this week. It's a really fascinating conversation I had about what it takes to innovate with three former guests of the show, Pal Kadakia of ClassPass, Perry Chen of Kickstarter, and Tristan Walker of Walker and Company. We recorded it live at our virtual How I Built the Summit back in May. So look for it in your podcast queue this Thursday, July 22nd. And today show is from our archives. It's a conversation with yet another amazing innovator. Bobby Brown of Bobby Brown Cosmetics. It first ran back in two thousand eighteen. Enjoy.

I used to hire and interview every person that walked in that brand. And then I didn't anymore. And all of a sudden there were people Working on my brand that I never met before. And that I might not have hired, and you know, it was a struggle, and I tried to let go of the details. But then I realized the details were what makes the company so special.

And so I kept thinking I could fix it. If we could just do this, if I could get this. It could be better. And it didn't get better. R

That's how I built this. show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. They built. I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show, how a makeup artist named Bobby Brown built a billion-dollar line of cosmetics by doing one simple thing. Making women look?

Like they weren't wearing any makeup. When I was a kid back in the nineteen eighties My older sister had a collection of those porcelain Mardi Gras masks on her bedroom wall. And they had these colorful faces painted with blue eyeshadow and deep rouge streaks across the cheeks and the reddest lips that no human could possibly be born with. And the thing about those masks is

They looked like models you'd see on the cover of fashines. Models who didn't hide their makeup. Make up that was loud and brash, and the look was anything but natural. And this is the world that Bobby Brown kind of Broke into the right. As a young makeup artist in the fashion industry, she loved everything about makeup except, you know, the way it actually made people look.

And so she was searching for a way to use it so that models looked like they weren't really wearing it at all. to, you know, lipstick that was the color of actual lips or Plush that didn't make you look like you were blushing, or eyeshadow that matched your skin tone. Now, this doesn't seem particularly revolutionary today, but back in the 1980s, when Bobby Brown started to mash together off the shelf cosmetics to come up with a new look,

She was trying something totally different. She was trying to convince women that make up could be well. Almost invisible. And some of her fellow makeup artists told her she'd have zero luck trying to sell that natural look. But of course today Bobby Brown Cosmetics is a brand that's been estimated to generate over a billion dollars of revenue a year. A year.

And Bobby never thought of herself as a businesswoman. She didn't set out to design a whole new line of cosmetics. But even as a little girl in suburban Chicago, she remembers how much she loved watching her mom get ready to go out for the evening. My mother was the most glamorous. stunning woman. She looked Like a young Jackie Kennedy.

And I used to watch her put her makeup on with her false eyelashes her eyeliner, she was skinny as could be. She'd be standing there with a cigarette hanging Off of the counter And I would just be sitting there watching her. And she I watched everything. I watched her take her brown

pencil which now we know is lead and fill in our eyebrows. And with the Toothpick put on false eyelashes. And bronzer on her cheeks and a pale lip on And go out, you know, with my dad Wednesday nights and Saturday nights. Wow and I was in awe.

You know, I could never, ever, ever be that glamorous. And I was, you know, the shortest um always. And you know, not the skinniest. But I was really lucky'cause the other side of that I had my grandmother and my aunt Dallas Who are more like me?

Really simple, wearing comfortable shoes. You know, people comfortable in their skin. And at the same time, by the way The be the girls, the models that were really popular were Cheryl Teague's. Oh yeah.

And all these, you know, blonde Barbie doll looking girls Which I was not one of them. I you know had thick eyebrows and dark hair and you know I wasn't that And then The thing that changed my life.

was going to see the movie Love Story. Oh yes, with uh with the And I'll never forget I I I I was somehow in middle I must have been in seventh grade And I remember sitting there and looking at this girl W Dark shiny hair.

No apparent makeup. And literally For the first time in my life I said I could be pretty too.

She changed my life. Ally McGraw in love story changed your life. change my self esteem and my you know, my my confidence and figuring out w who I am. So when you uh so when it's time for you to leave home and go to college, what did you uh what did you study? Well, I went to

you know, with a lot of my friends, there were probably a dozen of us. that went freshman year of college to University of Arizona in Tucson. And I was So bored. in school, you know, because you would sit in you know, it's a huge university and you'd sit in these big giant halls with

five hundred a thousand people and see this little teeny professor at the you know lecture us with you know an overhead projector and I certainly it was not the way that I was meant to learn. So You know, I went through the motions and the end of the year. I came home and I told my mom I wanted to drop out of school. And my mother says you can't.

And I said, But why, mom? It's so boring. I don't want to go to college. She says, I never graduated. college and she says you have to I said, but Mom, I have no clue what I wanna do. And my mother said, I remember the two chairs we were sitting at I was sitting cross legged as I always do, and she said Okay, forget what you want to do with your life. If today was your birthday, you could do anything you want, what would you want to do?

And I had no idea, and I remember, as I always do, quickly Saying the first thing that popped into my head was I want to go to Marshall Fields. and play with makeup. The big Marshall Fields in in downtown Chicago. Yep, i actually in the suburbs'cause that's where I live, but I wanted to go to the store and play with makeup. So my mom said

Why don't you You You know, why don't you study makeup? I said. Just then? Just then. Why don't you study makeup? And I said, Mom, I don't want to go to beauty school.

And she said, No, I'm sure there's a college somewhere where you could study makeup. So I f actually my dad's friend told me about the school in Boston called Emerson. That ha will let me study makeup. This is the summer after your first year of college. Right. It was literally two weeks before I was supposed to go back to Arizona. And

My car was actually, you know, packed when I made the decision to go to Emerson. So it was it was like a it was like days before. I flew up with my dad. Went to Emerson and they s and I asked If they had a makeup program and they said no, but we have something called an interdisciplinary program. and you can create your own major.

And sure, you can study makeup. I said I'm in. I'm going. And honestly, when I got to Emerson. I found myself. 'Cause it was a school full of kids like me.

creative, fiery entrepreneurial And you're creating films and you're creating, you know, all different art projects. And I remember even doing films and you know, they pair you with someone and instead of doing things a normal way, which is like, Oh, what kind of films should we do? I remember thinking about what kind of makeup I wanted to do and writing the film around the makeup. What was it about? makeup that you liked or that spoke to you? Well it wasn't even just the makeup, it was everything that goes along with it. So I've always been someone

That knew how to use makeup. differently than other people did. So And and doing theatrical makeup making someone look old or like a character was s amazing for me because in order to do makeup for a play For a film you have to read the script.

You have to talk to the director, you have to create what the m what the person is gonna look like. Did they have a hard life? How do you make them look tired? How do you make them look old? I'd have to go Figure it out and understand it and then make the girls look like that. So when you when you uh finished

At Emerson. Mm-hmm. Did you Was your intention to do theater? Makeup. Yes.

So I graduated Emerson in 79, and a month before I graduated, I was in my bedroom reading um Mademoiselle Magazine, and there was an article about a freelance makeup artist in New York named Bonnie Mallor. And I never heard of a freelance makeup artist and she was doing all the fashion shows and doing makeup work for Calvin Klein and Perry Ellis, and I wrote to her. And I said, can I come to New York and assist?

She never wrote me back. Yeah, oh no, no, but no no no. She didn't write me back, but I looked her up in the phone book and I called her. On her answering machine, she said, Hi, it's Bonnie. If I am not getting back to you, I'm probably on location. Call my agent Brian Bantry 212 Blah blah blah. So I go to New York for a visit and I call Brian Bantry. Huh. And he said, Come on up and talk to me. And he explained to me how the in freelance works.

And I started just figuring it out. So I you know I moved to New York. And I didn't know anyone. You know, I had Brian Bantry, I had a meeting with him. And he started, you know, slowly calling me to ha to be an assistant. to some of his people. He didn't represent me, but he let me be an assistant.

So you You get to New York and and you decide that you wanna be a a makeup artist and th this was gonna be your life. Like uh so how did you How did you start to get jobs? Well, I actually thought I would do fashion on the side until I broke into TV. So one of the things I did there's another makeup artist, her name was Bobby and she was the makeup artist for Saturday Night Live.

I assisted her a few times. Um so, you know, that was cool and I remember doing a couple times, you know, s the makeup artist on the evening news couldn't make it. I would do that. So I you know, it was a f I started a freelance career The only way I paid my rent at that time was Was my dad

Gave me five hundred dollars a month. To pay my rent. And and was um Like at this time in y in your life did you feel like There were expectations that you weren't fulfilling. I I don't know, I mean w you know, you came from this

sort of middle class home in Chicago and your dad was a lawyer and and so w were you ever thinking like, oh man, you know, like my parents have these expectations of me and and I need to I don't know. I mean, were you ever thinking like that or worried about that? No. Can I tell you why? One, I have this really weird gift. And you know, you don't know it's a gift until you're, you know, of a certain age and look back. I am so naive. So I never think something's not gonna work out, and I never did. So

I was not worried. You know, yes, I was always anxious about how I was gonna. Pay the rent or if I had enough money for this. And my I remember calling my dad one day and I said, Dad I just can't stick to this budget. I had a credit card with a limit. I think I had two hundred and fifty dollars a month limit, and I kept, you know, incurring all these fees, and I said, Dad, I can't stick to this. And he said, All right, stop for a minute, put it down. I said, Okay. He said, Stop trying to stick to a budget. or create a budget.

Why don't you figure out how you're gonna make more money? I said, hmm. Okay. And I remember telling myself, Monday morning you get up and you fill your date book with appointments. So I go sees as they call it. So I went, I started making appointments, and as long as I Monday was my day to fill it, and then I had the whole week to go see people, so I started calling. um magazines and I'd look on the masthead and I would see the booking agent. I booked with them. Hi, I'm Bobby Brown, I'm a freelance makeup artist. I'd love to come in and show you my book. I had a you know a book of like faces that you'd have to do. Of faces that I've done. Okay. Yes. And you know you start to make

relationships you come back and see people and I did that for a while So here's my question. I mean, what does it Like how are you good like a better makeup artist than someone else. Like what is it that You were able to offer.

Well, all right, so let's go back to um The севітіс і на ейтіс та мейкап. Back then. Was the epitome of unnatural foundation was pink. It stopped at the at the jawline, it was contour, eyes were eyeshadow was yellow and purple and blue.

It was all of those things. I was always doing More of a now it's called a Bobby face and now it's called nude makeup, but back then It was just I always made people look healthier. I wanted people to not look like they were wearing makeup and

I even had one very, very famous makeup artist, you know, who I asked his opinion on stuff said You will never work because People don't want to look like that. And I s don't want to look like that. People wanna look

Made up and You know, I just couldn't do it. So even when I was doing makeup An TV I had these really simple things I I looked for. I wanted to make the foundation. To actually be the color of the skin. Yeah.

And I had a mix and blend. Because most makeup on the market was bad. And you know, having a giant kit, I had everything, so I would kinda, you know, smoosh a lot of it together. And people started taking pictures of it. It looked really good. So You

are getting steady work, you're doing more and more magazines. What was the first really big gig that you can remember getting like a with a major fashion model. Probably two of my huge aha like back then was When I had a six or eight page spread in American Vogue with a one model Tatiana Petites and it was literally full face, full bleed, full face, a makeup story

Only on you know, different looks, different makeup. That was like put me on the map. Hm. And then the next map Was a cover of Vogue with Naomi Campbell. Wow, when was that? Now we're into I think

Eighty eight or eighty nine? When she was just starting to be a huge model. Huge model. Yeah. So You know, you are doing makeup and that's your life. That's your career. Yes. I was at the top of my game and by the way, you do magazine work and editorial, it's fantastic. You No matter how big it is, you still get a hundred and fifty dollars a day. Oh, so you really don't make a whole lot of money. No, but When you do advertising

And catalogue like catalog at the time was paying between two fifty and five hundred a day, and that's when you do make up on a bunch of models for a Saks Fifth Avenue or a Macy's and then if it's a commercial you got a couple thousand. But everything you do you meet people and you s you know, you tend to move in packs. If a hairdresser gets book for something they book you. And then You know, then you start doing advertising and that's you know could be up to five thousand a day. And by the way, while I did those things, I also had

A very, very serious relationship. I got engaged, I moved out of the city. I had friends. I had a normal life. I started having kids. At the same time.

Mm. And I chose that. I chose that. I wanted to be, I wanted to go through that tunnel. Put my hair on a ponytail, put my sneakers on. Be in the park with my dog.

You know. I'd rather be home with my husband and my baby then you know stay I couldn't understand why they wanted me to stay at a fashion chute. Until ten o'clock at night, just because they took a long time deciding things. I'm like, no, I'm out of here at six.

Yeah. So In nineteen ninety, I guess, that was r around the time when you Started to kind of Experiment with your own makeup.

W how how did that even Be g how did that even happen? So I was pregnant with my first baby and I was on a photo shoot for Mademoiselle Magazine. No, it was self magazine. And it was called Makeup Shopping. At alternative places with makeup artist Bobby Brown.

And I they took me to different places. And one of the places downtown, I guess I took them. That I took the crew to was Keel's pharmacy. Keel's at the time was this independently owned cool place. I brought everyone down there. We were shooting there and while they were shooting I was talking to the chemist that was there and he had a little a couple of lipstick.

One shot. And did it look like a pharmacy like everyone's wearing white and Exactly. And there was a chemist on site. There was a chemist on site, um and he had these lipstick, and I remember touching them And I said, Wow, these are really nice. He said, Oh yeah, I make those. And I said, You make them? And he says, Yeah. I said, Oh, I I would love to be able to make a lipstick. He said, I'll make it for you. I said, I said, All right, m I said, What I want you can't buy. I said, I want something that Doesn't smell. I want it to be creamy but not greasy. I want it to look like lip color. I can't find a lipstick that looks like lip color. And he's like, what do you mean?

I said, Well I and I pulled out my taupe I pencil and my pinky blush and I said look at when you put this together, if you put a little bit of balm on it. and blotted on your lips, he's like all right, gimme those things. And he went home and he sent it to me. And I said, Oh my god, I love this.

I said I bet I could sell this. And he said, All right, why don't you sell it for fifteen dollars? He said, I'll make it, you sell it. You'll get$750, I'll get$750. Thought, okay, that's a deal. So I had a lipstick. that I called Brown.

'Cause I thought it was brown base, not'cause of my name. And then I thought everyone's gonna love that. And then I said, You know what, not everyone has The same colour lips. And I started studying people's lip color.

And then I sat down and I thought about all the different lip colors. And then I said, you know, some people don't like lip colour lipstick, they like red. Orange. Someone likes a good beige, a pink But I said you don't need fifteen different pin up kit.

Let me make the ideal pink. Let me make the ideal orange. So I sat down and I thought of ten different colors. I worked with a chemist. He made these colors. And I thought, alright, let's put a number one to ten. But let me name them. And I wasn't gonna name them the way lipstick are named, you know, cherries in the snow, and I'm like, why don't we call them

Beige. Pink. orange, red, so you know, raisin. I named them what they look like. So you were doing like more understated

Yeah, she's understated. And what was on the market. Wearable by the way. The word wearable. People could put them on and actually look good. How's that for a concept? So you would take like I'm just trying to to to to get the right color to what was the name of this chemist, by the way? Steven. Steven. So to get to get Steven the right color, you would take like

I don't know. paint or or different makeups and just like m rub it together in like a petri dish or something. Yeah. And I w you know I would I would either mail it to him or I would say do this and Yeah, you know, back and forth, back and forth. He made'em for me and I did everything else. And you said yeah, make like how many? Like five, ten sticks? I think

You know, he probably made a hundred of each color. Oh, okay. Um yeah. So no, once we agreed that we would be partners, there was nothing in writing. It was just, wow, this could be interesting. It wasn't anything more than that. And he had like a fabrication plant or ab the ability like make mouldings of Yeah, yeah. He did. I don't I think he did it in his home. You know, it wasn't it was his side thing'cause he was a chemist. And what were you gonna sell each each stick of lipstick for again? Fifteen dollars. Yes, fifteen bucks. And When I first started, my plan was to sell them to models, to editors.

And then one day I was having lunch with a girlfriend who was the beauty editor of Glamour magazine at the time. And she said, So what's going on? You know, we both had young babies and I talking about the kids and I said You know I'm doing let me show you this thing. She goes, Oh my God. That's so cool. She said, Can I write about it? And you had kind of a reputation in the industry'cause you were a makeup artist. Yes. You get this article on glamour and what happens?

People started calling up and ordering lipstick. Um, you know, it wasn't like oh my God, I'm gonna be rich. Oh my god I could pay my mortgage this month. It was just, you know, steady things coming in and we got a bunch of offers. You know, people wanted to purchase lipstick, so I don't even think You know, we sold

This is not call Bobby Brown at this point, right? Yes it was. It was. It was called Bobby Brown. I didn't know what else to call it. You just put your name on the side. Yes. And that was really cool. And then I meet the lady at Bergdorf. And that's when things actually needed to change. You meet Who at Bergdorf? I ended up going to a party in the city with some friends and

uh friends that actually eventually were gonna be our partners In the company, and I met her friend Allison, and I said, Thanks for inviting me. I'm Bobby. She said, Nice to meet you, and I Said what do you do? And she said, I'm the cosmetics buyer at Bergdorf Goodman. And I said wow. I'm doing this line of lipstick, you know, perhaps you want to look at them.

And she said love to let me bring him in. So what happened? You went you brought your lipstick to to to show her then a couple days later? She brought them in. I mean I had no press release, I had nothing. She called me back and she said they're really interested, we'd love to take them. Hm. And that's when

I realized I had it really changed the way we were doing things. And you know, I had to find a different way to scale up than the chemist because that was the only way he knew. So I parted ways with the chemist. And I had a find

A lab? To recreate the lipsticks. The way I want it. And we needed to find someone to do it, remember making all these calls. But then one day

I was in an elevator. And I said hi to the girl in the elevator and she said hi. I think we were on the eleventh floor, so we had a few minutes. Elevator in your apartment building? And I said hi. She said hi and I said, What do you do? She said, Oh, I work at at uh a cosmetics Lab. In Queens. And I said, Oh, do you have a card? And um I

Had my lipstick's uh recreated there and they made my lipstick. I met her in the elevator. Coming up more chance meetings for Bobby Brown and how they helped her grow the company, and then eventually. how that company got away from her.

Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz and you're listening to How I Built This. From NPR. Hey, welcome back to how I built this from NPR. So it's the early 1990s and Bobby Brown has come up with ten new shades of lipstick. She's got a new cosmetics lab to make them and a department store that wants to sell them, Bergdorf Goodman. But in order to get things going, she needs an infusion of cash.

We Pretty much. uh emptied our bank account, which was I remember five thousand, my husband remembers ten thousand. I trust him more than I remember my memory. And we actually partnered.

With these friends of ours. who one girl was in PR and the husband was in the cosmetics industry, you know. So the four of us partnered together. The the w what were their names? Their names were Roz and Ken Landis. And why did you decide that you you want to to partner with with other people? Because my husband and I

did not have the expertise. You know, we had no idea. We were, you know, thirty one year old kids Іно, бій, х'о, і у реаліста девелопер. I was a makeup artist. I knew how to make these make the lipstick. I knew what it should be. And we were friend this couple that we were friends with, he had been in the cosmetics industry, and she was in PR.

So it was, you know, a magical pairing. That's how we started the brand. And Bobby Brown is born as a product at Bergdorf Goodman. Yes. And how does it do when it debutes there? Well, we thought we would sell a hundred lipsticks the first month, which you know, that was the thought and we did a hundred the first day. And were you in in the store? We were we had fifth Avenue, right? On Fifth Avenue and there was no room in the cosmetics department, so they put us on a table outside of the cosmetics department where I think they had, you know, handbags. And so, you know, we wasn't for any other reason, but people thought it was a brilliant genius idea that we marketed ourselves

Apart. From the noise of the cosmetics floor. So you could finance it with whatever cash you had between the four of you and then Uh and then you would sell product and then you would get paid by Bird Dor of Goodman. When did it go to the next store? Well, we were at Bergdorf. Well we we added pencils and then we added eyeshadow. Like we did everything not

Like strategic But as they came up and we we added them. And we were pretty much with the same lab for most of the time. And then Bergdorf, you know, one day we were doing so well at Bergdorf Goodman They said, you know, we're a sister company of Neiman Marcus. They would love to try you in four stores. So we opened up four stores in Neiman's. And a store is like a counter, right? A counter, yes. They call them doors actually. So we opened four doors, four stores, started adding, you know, products, and I would visit the stores and do personal appearances

Usually with my husband and my baby or babies, you know, in tow'cause we always You know, I never like to be apart from them. And they always came. And I would travel to these markets. And I would be on their local T V, I'd be on in their newspapers. So it was a full on you know press thing.

Were there w did you ever get a vibe from people like, Well, who are you? Um certainly, you know, and especially in Dallas, you know, where they would look m look at me like she's the plain Jane type. You know,'cause in Dallas the makeup, the hair, the jewelry. Right. You know, it took a while to That's Neiman Marcus. That's Neiman's. That's the fancy stuff. You know, it took a while to be beloved by those women. But also at the same time I was becoming a a known Beauty expert on the Today Show.

Ah, which was really a major launch. In the the brand and the business. So the story behind the Today Show was that I wrote my first book. About about cosmetics, about makeup. Yeah. And then I was happened to be in Florida doing a personal appearance for one of my

make up products and also for my first book and I'll never forget it was in you know the inner circle which were the fancy ladies at Neiman Marcus, I finished my speech and I said, Any questions? And this little redheaded lady, you know, grandma type, raised her hand and I went back You know, I remember I put my hand on her shoulder, she was so cute. And she said, Yes, I have trouble keeping my lipstick on. How do I do it? And I said, Well

And I gave her the answer. And she looked at me and she says, Thank you. She said, Are you Jewish? And I said, Yes, I am And she said, I've seen you on the Today Show I've been on once. I said thank you. And she said, as a Jewish this is off microphone, she said she said, You've done so much. Is there anything else you want to do? I said, I don't know. I said I don't know, maybe I'd love to be a regular on the Today Show. She said, honey. Jeff Zucker is my grandson.

Jeff Zucker was the executive producer of the Today Show at the time. Oh my God. And um it was a Friday. Monday, I was on the Today Show. I was in my dressing room. You know, my PR team at the time was beyond excited doing how to put your makeup on something. Probably Katie was interviewing me. Jeff came up and he said, Grammy. you know, wanted me to have you on. I said, That's awesome and he said I hear you want to be a regular. I said, I'd love to be a regular. He says, Okay, you're a regular I said when when can I come back? He said, How about next month? I said, Okay, once a month. He said, Okay, fine.

I was on the Today Show for about Twelve years? Fifteen years? And honestly, being an beauty expert on the Today Show. Probably put me on the map. And you did this m at the at least at the beginning for free? Oh, I know they never they never paid me a nickel.

And I never ever push my brand. They would say Bobby Brown from Bobby Brown Cosmetics It was an amazing thing because it it established me as a beauty expert, not just someone who makes makeup. It was really my expertise. So it separated me, the person From the brand, which was good, but it also really helped the brand.

You in um in nineteen ninety five Five years after you first make those ten Lipsticks, you get an offer. Um, I guess you pretty early on you guys are approached by big the big cosmetic companies Who wanted to buy your

Brand and you I I guess you rejected a couple of offers at the beginning, right? Mm-hmm. Who by the way who were they? Um there was a lot of talks with Shoshido. Oh yeah, the Japanese company. And then there was a um A Dallas based company that tried to buy us, a finance company that basically finally said If you won't sell to us, we're just gonna knock you off with another makeup ours, which they did. Um, which is fine. I n never afraid of that.

Oh, they created a knockoff brand? Well they Well, it was a different brand, but yes, a makeup artist r you know, a a well known makeup artist that created Products. Is it still out there in the market? Yeah, Laura Mercier, you know, was a competitor. I mean we were ver we were always very different and that was fine. And um They wanted to kind of buy you out and and have you did. They wanted to buy us. We weren't for sale. We didn't think they were the right people to buy us. And We weren't for sale when you know we got the call from S D Lauder either.

This is five years after you launch it, Estee Lauder calls you and you take the call. Yeah, I kinda think it was four years, but yeah. Four years. It was four years. So I got a call from uh Frederick Facci Who, you know, had a salon and was a well known hairdresser and he said, You know, Leonard Lauder would like an introduction to you. Can I do that? And I said, Sure. Sure. So um we were invited of dinner Ленар Лоддерс хом, май партне розвіт one.

to his home and um him and his wife at the time, Evelyn, we had a beautiful dinner. And you know, fell madly in love You know, with him, with her. And he basically said, You know, I'm really interested in buying your company. You've done he said what he said to me, he says You've done such an incredible job, you are beating us.

In the stores, and we were beating S Lauder and Neiman Marcus at the time. You were beating us, we can't beat you, so we thought we would buy you. And you were open to hearing hearing offers? Well, when Leonard said to me. You know that we can help you grow your business and you could do what you really love. Which is be creative and work on shoots, work, you know, on the brand, but not have to worry about the details, and we could help expand your business and you can have complete autonomy. You know, which means I could do what I wanted with the company and still be in charge.

And they were they were offering a hundred percent. They were gonna buy a hundred percent. Hundred percent. And I guess we'll just burst the bubble here. You did sell to them, which we'll get to. We did. And no one's ever gotten the number right, and I'm not good at numbers and I can't even tell you what it is, but it was like more than I could ever have imagined. It was a lot of cash. Now you had to course split it with your partners and then pay your taxes, but you were left with a Yes. All right. Just pause for a sec. Looking back on that decision in nineteen ninety five.

to sell to Estee Lauder for whatever price they offered you. Some people say seventy four million, let's say fifty million, whatever it was. More. A hundred million. Who would it? Was it the right decision to make? A hundred percent. It was the right decision to make. A hundred percent. You couldn't have scaled Bobby Brown to what it is today without that.

I don't know. But I didn't want to. Because I just wanted to have a fulfilling life with my family, my friends, and my kids. Yeah. I I there's no question. I have no regrets. Becoming a billionaire wasn't wasn't that But that wasn't like it, yeah.

No, millionaire is fine. You don't need to create millionaire. Yeah. Alright, so Leonard Lauder writes you a big check. And Estel Audder now owns Bobby Brown. What does that mean? Does that mean that you then become an employee of Estelder? They paid you a salary. You were an employee with a four oh one K and all that stuff. And at the beginning was it did you like it? I loved it. It was fantastic. I loved it for, you know, out of the twenty two years I probably loved it. For fifteen. And and so the idea was once Estee Lauder was running the business side, you didn't have to worry about going to banks for financing, you didn't have to worry about supply chain, you didn't have to worry about payroll or accounting or not filing a letter with the office of tax and revenue.

And you didn't want to do any of that stuff. No, I had no interest. I didn't like the big corporate meetings. And I would sit there in some meetings and I know I used to drive people crazy. Because I didn't do things the corporate way. And I'm sure people either looked at me as brilliant or really difficult. Or you know, whatever. You know, the thing is Unfortunately

Men could be brilliant when women are considered difficult. I can't imagine that would have been an easy transition. Um it wasn't easy and I'm sure it was harder for, you know, our partners at the time. They didn't stay very long. You know, we we had a little bit of a tough Relationship. You know, for a while.

Because you know, you start a company with friends and you know, things happen and things get tough and It was a tough time. There was a a bunch of years where thing there was a struggle between You know, Raz and I and then the four of us and You know, after you know, we sold the company they

Um, they move Raz off the brand and She ended up working for the company for a while and then she left and um a stranger friendship. Oh really strained it. Do you think that it's a good idea?

In general to avoid going to business with friends. Yes. It's not a good idea. Okay, all right. A hundred percent. And and you know, we We're not friends for many years after we sold the company and we just recently got back together the past couple of years. So um you know, life is interesting.

You uh walked away from Estelder in twenty sixteen. Maybe it's not the right term. I don't know. I don't even know what the right term is. It was it was a joint decision. And was that hard? I mean your name, your company. You built it. Right. And and that's it. You're out. Well

Sh Like probably two to five year five years was a struggle. The last five years? The last five years was a struggle. The company got so big The corporation got so big, they bought so many other companies. It was growing, it was huge.

I am not a follow the leader kind of person. I am the leader, okay? I can't help it. And if I see things not working, Where it makes sense to me and wasting energy and time, I don't like it and I like to Do it differently, so You know, and I like to try new things and invent new things. So yeah, it was always a struggle, always a struggle. And so then the last couple years were really tough. Like what happened? Oh my god, there was just um you know, they start and I used to hire ever approve and hire and interview every person that walked in that ship.

And then I didn't anymore, and all of a sudden there were people. Working on my brand that I never met before. And that I might not have hired, and you know, it was a struggle, and I tried to let go of the details. But then I realized the details were what makes the company so special. Mm-hmm.

I kept thinking I could fix it. So I would walk in every day with an imaginary, you know tape around my arm saying, Okay, let me fix this. Let me fix this. Let me fix this. I couldn't. And you know, it the last year was really tough. I'm sure they were not happy with me. I was not happy with them. And it just was time for both of us to move on. Was it tough in the sense like you dreaded going into the office in the morning? Yes.

Wow. Not only dreaded going in in the morning, I was Depleted and spent when I came home. So for two years, my aunt Alice, who you know was 80 at the time, would say to me, It's time. My husband would say. Are you ready?

Like my friends would say. Come on, enough is enough already. And I kept saying no because I think if we could just do this, if I could get this. You know, it could be better. And it didn't get better.

I like I I'm imagining I'm walking down I pass you and I know it's Bobby Brown. I'm like, Oh my God, Bobby Brown, I love your makeup And you're on your way to work and you would say, Oh yeah, thank you so much And I wouldn't know that you were miserable walking to your powerful job at Bobby Brown. No. Honestly, if you really asked me why I left, I needed to be the boss again.

Yeah. Like when you're the boss, then you're okay, something doesn't work, we could fix it. So yes, I when I left Bobby, it wasn't easy. The second it happened where I went down the elevator And and I knew that was that second it was done. I had a relief come over me like I can't tell you. The first relief was oh my God. All these problems are lifted. All right, so here's the thing.

We've had uh lots of founders in the company who sold And then, you know, s some some were angry with the way it was run and And some have mixed feelings, some di indifferent it depends. But

You know, Ben and Jerry, for example, those guys They'll they'll knock Ben and Jerry's now and again in a good natured way, but they will still they're still the face of the brand and they're happy to kind of be the brand not happy, but they are the brand ambassadors. Yeah. So did you ever think of doing that? No. No. No, you wouldn't offer to me. Like the Bobby Brown I mean the face of the You didn't had no interest in that. No interest. I don't care how much money they offered me. Wha why? Why not?

What I love I'm I'm a I'm an entrepreneur. I like to to mould and shape. And be in control. Of how things are. Yeah, and so no, I have no I had no interest.

You know, honestly, it's been a while. It took I'm not gonna say I walked out the door and it was fine. There was a lot of emotion the first Month or two there was a lot of emotion. You know, the first year now it's you know year and a half. I literally

Could look at at what's happening there and I and I unfollowed everything so I don't see anything, but when I do see it. It's like there's nothing there because it's not the company I I found it and it's not the company that That it's not my company, it's their company, and єс, I'm really proud.

Of the product, I'm proud of everything I did. But you know, the world has changed and what they're the direction they're going is fine is what they want to do. And by the way, were you were you prevented are you prevented from your contract with Bobby Brown of starting a makeup line? Um oh yes. You can't never do that for the rest of your life. No. No, that's not accurate, you know. But I my name, I sold my name. So you can't You can't use the name Bobby Brown anymore. No, no. No. But I would never. Yeah, I wouldn't I would never put even if I could, I would not put my name on a product anymore.

Because I have to be the face of that product. I don't want to be responsible for everything I did that already. With all this the success that you've had in your career. How much of it do you think is because of your

your intelligence, your hard work, and how much of it because of luck. I think that um my my intelligence is mostly emotional intelligence, which is you know, dealing with what's around me. I am incredibly lucky and, you know. fortuitous and grateful and all of those things. I'm not the only one that works hard. I am not the only one that sees opportunities. I

Don't know why. You know, things I do are successful, and not everything I've done is successful, but I keep going. And I'm really good what I'm really good at and I hope there's other entrepreneurs out there that understand this, I am really good at hiring people that are good at things that I'm not. That's really important, because I'm not good at everything. And I'm not I I told my aunt Alice, I'm not really good at anything, I'm just good at telling people what to do.

I'm really good at telling people what to do. That's Bobby Brown, founder of Bobby Brown Cosmetics. And although she can no longer use her own name as a brand, she can sell her own makeup again. Her non-compete with Estee Lauder ended last year, and she just came out with a brand new line of makeup. called Jones Road.

And by the way, how lucky were you to have such a cool name, Bobby? I never liked my name growing up. You hated it? Oh yes. When they decided what to name me, I was named after my great grandmother Berta. Thank God they didn't name me Berta. Not sure anyone would use lipstick called Berta Brown. Berta Brown. You could just that that could be your new. It could be Berta Brown. No. Maybe it's time. Maybe it Bobby, maybe it's time.

Yeah. But I'm not sure that would work. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. It was produced by Rachel Faulkner with music composed by Rumpin Arab Lui. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This. This is NPR.

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