Remembering Kate Spade

Hey, it's Guy here. So We've been hearing from a lot of you since we all found out the tragic news about Kate Spade. Kate and her husband Andy Came to our New York studios last year and they sat down for what would become one of my Favorite all time episodes of how I built this.

They were Both so likable in in every way. They were self effacing and also self deprecating. They were kind, giggly, smart. And most importantly, they were generous. They were generous with their reflections and generous with the lessons they learned all along the way.

So as a small tribute to Kate. We decided to repost this interview. Listen to her voice and her laughter and her warmth. And I think you'll get a sense of the kind of person she was. Oh.

We were still not making any money, nobody was making a salary. We were Andy was funding everything I just remember thinking that I think we need to shut it down. I said it's We had run through our four one K money. And you know, all of our savings at that point. We still weren't seeing You know, a progression that was going to pay us a salary in the next year in the near future. So we thought all right, we had a good run at it.

We think we've had it. From NPR, it's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. Guy Raz, and on today's show how a Midwestern kid named Kate Brosnahan took a role of Burlap sewed it into handbags and launched an iconic brand

Called Kate's face. The person behind the brand you know is Kate Spade? grew up as Kate Brasnahan in Kansas City, Missouri. And she always loved fashion, but She never planned to work in fashion, in fact.

She wanted to be a journalist. So in the early nineteen eighties She went off to study journalism. at Arizona State University. And that

Was where Kate met her future husband. Andy Spade. We worked together at a clothing store, and I was on the When inside the He was on the men's side and

One day his car broke down and he asked me for a ride home. Then we really started off as really great friends. And the car continued to break down, so I I think it nurtured our relationship a lot. And the rest of the story, well, thirty plus years later, they're still together. Anyway, Kate graduated from college first, and he was a few credits short, so she decided to backpack around Europe. By yourself.

traveled around and came back to New York and went to a temp agency because I desperately needed Some some money. Why why did you why did you want to move to New York? Well it was kinda I really was expecting to go back to Arizona.

to be with Andy, but that's where my ticket. It started and ended in New York. And Yeah, I didn't have the money to get back, so I needed a job in order to do that. So I started at a template and I was typing and they said, um, I don't think this is gonna work out And then she called the next day and said

Can you get ready right now? Condin has called. And they have a job in the fashion department. So, uh they ended up hiring me. They didn't want to because I couldn't type. And my boss. Said. Listen, she's great and I don't need her to type a lot.

'Cause we were doing fashion shoots and styling, so Um it wasn't as you know. What you what were you what were you doing at at Condane Nast? Well, I started as an assistant, so I was um Tine you know, model shoes on a photo shoot because they couldn't bend over in their clothes.

That or getting hairstylists, Snickers. I'm telling you whatever. I ironed and Carried bags and It was a lot of work. I'll say that. In in the meantime, Andy, you were you were back in Tempe at Arizona State University?

I was back in Tempe, I was struggling with a few required courses. I I think I had more credits than necessary, but there were a few that I couldn't get through. And I did start an advertising agency. My senior year in college. And so I I started trading ads for bartering food. And so I'd I'd go to a restaurant, for example, and I'd I'd bring in the ad that they had running in the local paper.

And I would show it to them and say, I think I can do better if I come back and show you a a better version of this Will you either pay me in food or give me a few hundred dollars. I had like ten takers, so I ended up with ten accounts. Um I mean things were going well. And and Kate, were you still planning to head back to Arizona uh At that point?

Yes. And I kept saying, Oh, I'm coming back. I will only stay here for six months. Well, first of all it was three months. Then I moved it to six, and then finally I said, I have to be honest, I kind of like my job. I loved it and I love the you know the fast pace of New York and suddenly it just I loved it.

When she got her job offer for fourteen thousand dollars a year, everything changed. Um She said, I'm staying and that's when I said, Well, I'm gonna I'm moving to New York. And you just figured I'd I I'll find something there. Yeah, I'd figured I'd I'd find something there. I had a little portfolio. of advertisements that I'd written and art directed. And so I took that with me to New York in hopes of finding a job.

And what did you guys uh did you uh like move in together? We did, um I I forwarded a little bit of money that I had. Um to Kate for security deposit on the cheapest apartment she could find. And

I remember arriving and Kate said, Call me from a payphone on the corner. When you arrive. And I'll Get out on the fire escape.

So I called and I walked to twenty six Renwick Street and I looked up and she was out on the fire escape and she threw down a sock with a key in it. That is true. Um it's easier to throw it down than to walk. And you had like your your like suitcase with you? I had w one warm coat, a suitcase, and a portfolio. Wow. And and did you but ca um I know you went to an all girls Catholic high school. Did your parents um have a problem with you living with Andy?

They never really said much, but My mother was not pleased with it. Yeah. I mean I just kept saying it was a matter of economics. We were just being practical. So Andy, did you did you actually land a job in in advertising?

I did, I was interviewing in a lot of programs like Y R and Ogle Bee and May there, but my portfolio didn't reflect the kinds of accounts that they were working on, cars and IBM. But one day I was walking through Grand Central station and uh a young man in a suit pulled me over. I was carrying my portfolio and he said, What do you do? And I said, Well I'm looking for a job as a copywriter He said, Do you have a minute? I said, Sure, he said, I'd love to look at your portfolio. And we stopped in Grand Central Station. He went through my portfolio and He said, I think I might have something for you. I'm a recruiter. Just happened to see me walk through Grand Central Station. I can't believe this is this is an honest true story. And

He went through it and he said, Meet me in my office tomorrow. Which I did, and he sent me on three or four interviews. Um One of which was was uh an agency named Bozell Jacobs, Kenyon and Eckhart. And they had an opening for someone to work on the Army National Guard and Merrill Lynch. And

He said, I know you haven't had any experience on these b these types of businesses, but I like your Hutzpah. At the time I didn't know what Hutzba meant until I I called someone and I said What does it mean? And they said, Oh it means you have, you know, you took a chance starting your own business, it's a positive. And so I got that job. So okay, so You guys are on your early twenties.

Your Living the New York life. Kate you're working at at Condonast. Right, at Mademoiselle Magazine. At Mademoiselle Magazine, which is pretty great, actually. It was amazing. I mean it w my mom framed when they put my name in the mast touch, she still has it framed. And what were you doing? What were you what what did you start to do there? Well it was first assistant

And Then I was promoted to associate editor And I was in charge of all the accessories. And I did that for a couple years, then they promoted me to senior fashion editor.

And if there's one thing I did learn was how to be very resourceful. And it came in very handy for when we started our business because I mean It was do not come back to me with No. Mm.

I mean you figure it out. I mean it would be we have to go on a shoot in two days and we need eight tickets to the Bahamas and Figure out how to get us all there. I mean if we're all on different airplanes, I don't care, but get us there. And I was like Make it happen. So I I guess it was sort of the the mi the early nineties, like maybe maybe nineteen ninety one, when you decided to leave Mademoiselle Magazine. Yes. Um what was going on? Why did you decide to go?

It's funny, you know, Andy and I were talking one night and I just said um I was looking ahead and I saw the fashioness That would be your next Jump from being Senior fashion editor.

And I thought Oh I don't I don't really see myself wanting that. That job. So Andy and I were out, honestly, at a Mexican restaurant and He just said

What about handbags? Honey, you just don't start a handbag company. And he said, Why not? How hard can it be? Okay, really. He regrets those words. W why handbags and evil? Well, she was an accessories editor and she collected You know, handbags for fashion shoots. That was one of her key responsibilities. So she'd have to get handbags from you know, vintage stores.

For beach shoots, straw bags. She had a a personal collection that was amazing and then she knew every handbag company in the market. And I thought she understood it better than anyone, what's missing in the market. Wha and wha what was missing in the market at the time, Kate? At the time things were very Bags were too complicated. And I really loved very simple kind of architectural shapes.

And I would wear these very simple shapes, none of which were famous designers. I mean there were no names if someone were to say whose is that I'd say I I don't know. I bought it at a vintage store or it's a straw bag I got in Mexico. So and they were all very square and simple and I thought, gosh, I mean why can't we find something Just clean and simple and modern. So okay, so uh about this time that that you wanted to quit, you were thinking like I'm done with fashion magazines? Yes.

And Andy was like You know bags, you know, like why don't you try to do this this on your own? Absolutely. He had actually said it before I quit, so I kind of already had it in the back of my mind and I remember at the very beginning thinking, Why didn't I stay? I could have

made an income while I was working on this. And someone said to me, The truth. is you would never have done it had you stayed. because I wouldn't have been as scrappy or as I mean, it was kind of, you know, do or die. So I think if I'd still been working I would have been like uh a little bit more laxadasical about it. Whereas When you don't have an income coming in, you are you're doing whatever you can to make it happen.

So how did you even start to I mean you had no And how to sew things and had put rivets in and all that stuff. It's funny, I did not know and I did start by buying

Big sheets of white. And I would cut out the And And I went to a pattern maker that I found in the back of Women's Wail. She advertised that she made patterns. So I contacted her, she worked out of her apartment and she was as patient as could be with me because I didn't know anything. And I remember being really embarrassed about that.

That I wasn't, you know, a student from Parsons or RISD or FIT that I I really didn't know what I was doing. And I honestly started with paper, then we'd make a sample out of any kind of fabric, muslin. And then um I kind of got the shape down and I had to find a manufacturer. So I called Women's For Daily. They

connected me to a department that they really said we don't do that, but someone in the fashion department said, Oh, it's so odd, I know someone and he had left himself. This production guy to start his own business. So was this guy that that you found was he was he a designer? He wasn't a designer, he was a manufacturer, so he uh did the production. And so I brought in my samples and

He was like, Okay, well I want some money up front and he really was very nervous that I wasn't going to pay him and Um But he Took our tiny little production, honestly, which would be Ten bags at a time, you know.

And how how long after Like you you sort of start to sketch out designs. Was this? Was this like a few weeks later or months later? Wha wha did you were you working on this idea for a long time in your apartment? Yes. I mean I'd say at least a year, Andy. Yeah, at least a year and you were freelancing. Yeah.

night and certain days a week as a stylist. And Yeah, after getting the patterns made, the the next big challenge was finding someone who would sell us fabric. And because we didn't have any experience, none of the fabric houses would sell us anything other than a hundred yards, for example, right? And a hundred yards was obviously too much. We only needed to make six bags. We had six shapes. So we only needed probably forty yards. Twenty, twenty five. So I called

I looked in the yellow pages. And I looked up um Burlap. And I found a potato sack company. that was willing to sell to me. Huh. And they had three different

You know. weights and I needed the heaviest weight so that it was substantial enough for a handbag. And That was actually our first collection. Made out of burlap. Made out of burlap. So what did the bags look like? Kind of s rectangular little bags? Yes, absolutely, with Rafia fringe.

and this webbing handle and I found a webbing company also. Alright, so you get this you get these samples and then what you How do you get that h how do you start? What's the first thing you do? You go to these accessory shows. Trade shows. Trade shows and you have to get accepted. And we did, and of course, you know, you're

You get the worst spot because all the famous people end up in the front. This was in in New York. In New York at Javit Center. This is the first trade show you went to debut the Kate Spade burlap Bag And we honest to God brought in our own tables, our own chairs, we brought in lamps. From our apartment. Actually turned our booth turned into our apartment for the week. Yeah. Were you guys nervous? I mean, Kate, were you like I don't know, was were you worried that maybe somebody from Conding Nast would see you and you'd be a little embarrassed or somebody would sort of call you out and say, What do you do or who are you guys? Were you n were you freaking out? I was. I because the editors come by as well as the buyers. And I really didn't tell my parents or my family about it, or anyone for that matter.

Because I thought if it doesn't work. I will be so embarrassed because everyone kept saying Why would you have quit your job? You had insurance, blah blah blah, and who you know, who do you think you are. I just knew my family would just you know Oh, you got a little hot headed, big headed there in New York and think you can start this company. So I kept it on the down low. We intentionally didn't really talk about it much to

family. Uh because I think secretly we both thought it would fail. How did people respond to the bags? Okay. Well I remember crying because when I came home we hadn't even sold enough to cover the cost of the booth.

And I started crying and Andy said, Well who did you get? And I said Well we got um Barney's and he's at Okay. And I said Fred Siegel in Los Angeles and he was like Right. Katie, he said you've got two of the best stores in America.

Why are you crying? I said, I think we should shut it down. I'm very conservative and I said I I have no interest in losing money. I said and we've you know, we've already spent four thousand dollars and that's it for me. I'm not a gambler. So that's where Andy was like, No keep going And also I have to give a great deal of credit to the editors. Now at the time we weren't selling a lot, but the editors were putting us in the magazines a lot. What was it about your bags that appealed to them or that that

Got their attention. I think because they It wasn't anything anyone was doing. And everyone there's a fabric show in Paris called Premier Vision that all the designers go to. So sometimes you could end up with the same materials. Mine came out of the yellow pages. Chances are I wasn't gonna run into any people that had the same materials. So we were doing something different, which was really to our advantage. So editors were like, look at these beautiful burlap bags. Well, they thought they were beautiful, but I knew they thought they were interesting. And we did. We got a lot of credits and that's when my mother first found out.

And she was embarrassed and she call and said, You know, I how embarrassing that you didn't Tell me and my friend had to tell, Oh, you know, I don't know, I don't want to make a big deal of this and you know, okay it's one credit, that's not a business. Come how did you sort of land on the name? Kate Spade? Well, that was the Andy. Because we weren't I was not Kate Spade. I was um

Kate Brasnahan and I kept coming up with these names and Andy kept saying Kate Spade, because we were fifty fifty partners. And Finally I just said, Okay and everyone said, I love it. Kate spayed the York and I remember telling

To your point about My Catholic parents I told my mom. Honestly she burst into flames. I mean she was like, But you're not Kate Spade and I said, I know, but and she said, Oh, now you'll never be Kate Spade. Now you've you know, you've jinxed it and why would you name it Kate Spade? And I said Let's My first name, his last name, and it's like

Dolce and Gabana. And she goes. Who the hell's that? And I said never mind. I said it'll work. We hope. In just a minute. Why after three years of making no money? Kate and Andy almost walked away from their little handbag company.

I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This. From NPR. It's how I built this from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So when Kate and Andy A debuted the original Kate Spaybag.

They got orders from Barney's and Fred Siegel. And that was a big deal in the world of fashion. But even with those orders, it didn't mean Kate and Andy were sudden flush with cash or living large in New York. It wasn't even a guarantee that the company was gonna be successful. In fact Andy? He kept his full time job in advertising.

Yeah. Paying the overhead. Yeah. Um basically the rent and the other expenses, right? Well Kate Freelance didn't started the company. And I just thought well we're both twenty nine, thirty years old and know, it's time to do it. We don't have children. Let's not quit even if we lose everything. You know. Kate can always go back to a fashion job. Um You know, I can continue to work in advertising. And and you guys were running the company like out of your apartment?

Well we had to move to a loft and try Becca because we were in a small apartment, then we moved to a loft. We had boxes. Honestly, guy, everywhere. To the point where our loft bed was up these stairs that we'd crawl up, the entire apartment was just a sea of Brown boxes. But that sounds like we were doing very well, but it really was. We were still You were shipping out things from the apartment? Oh yes, for At least two and a half years.

So Katie would take the train to Brooklyn to the factory. Pick up the boxes, take them back on the subway. In trash bags. In trash bags. Walk them up a five floor walk up. And she was shipping and packing bags and doing everything and taking orders on the fax machine. I remember they'd come through in the middle of the night we'd hear I go, Good We were we we'd get excited. But the orders would not be that big because it was hard to for people at that time to kind of once they started selling, then you get bigger orders. So it was really very gradual. I mean it was at least

Three years before we paid ourselves. Maybe fifteen thousand a year. Fourth year we paid ourselves fifteen thousand and we're still working out of our apartment and it was our home office and our shipping warehouse and our Home. Did you start to see

Uh women walking around New York with Kate Spade bags? I did. Um Most of whom were editors who were getting them at a very good discount. So but eventually we started to see it. And I remember thinking when I did that was a big deal. And um

You know, I think it took people a while, even my family, my sister was working at Gucci and actually Called me and said we're all pitching in Mom.

for Mother's Day to get her a Gucci bag. And I thought what? Are you serious? I remember that. Because they really didn't think um There wouldn't be much. I still should be upset with them about that. Hopefully they're listening. So so all the while you're shipping bags out, you're getting orders in, and you are still designing Bags. Yes.

So you're working like crazy. We are and What we ended up doing Two partners.

It was my friend Elise Ahrens, my best friend since I was eighteen, and then Pamela Bell. Someone that we just met through friends here in New York. So

Three of us were in cars going to the factories. I was really doing the design only, but You know, I also was steaming the bags, boxing, packing all of it. And how were you guys funding all this? I mean, was it was it all with your own money? Yeah, I got a job offer to work for Satchi and Satchi in LA and I I almost tripled my salary and you know, we were still funding the company ourselves. And we needed money for fabric and we needed money for the trade shows. And so we both agreed that I would go to LA. Oh, and you did move to LA. Oh, he did.

And I thought I could go back and forth and at the time Elise and Pamlet would hold down the New York I rented a little house that I called the house I never lived in. I never bought a piece of furniture. And I just took the money and sent it, you know, put it back into the business. Did you ever hit a point in in the first few years?

Where you thought this was gonna collapse, this this was gonna fail. Yes, and I remember calling back And I said, I think we need to shut it down. I said it's Wha Wow, were you guys like in debt or It was hard. I mean it was we were still not making any money. Nobody was making a salary. We were Andy was funding everything And and at that point we were all kind of putting money in Pamela would put in some Elise and

I just remember thinking oh again it's like We had run through our four one K bunny. And you know, all of our savings at that point. We still weren't seeing You know, a progression that was going to pay us a salary in the next year in the near future. And we thought all right, we had a good run at it.

I think we called the the partners who we We brought it as as Equity partners on a handshake without any salary and we said, We think we've had it'cause we were exhausted. And they said, Well we just s left to start with you and we haven't had any returns on our time we put in it to The deal's not you know not working. So we felt like uh you can't just walk out. And I remember we spoke and said, All right, we're gonna go back do you remember what year that was? I'm trying to think.

Ninety case. Ninety five, ninety-six, ninety five probably. Ninety five, and I did get another job in New York, a great job actually. And so But still the company was not making money. No. Not profitable. No. What was the turning point? What what happened?

I would say the stores really started to buy more. We were in Saks and Neimans and When the larger department stores started to buy. It

We won't. The CFDA Award, which is the Council of Fashion Designers of America. And There were reporters from around the country, not just New York. That the show that we were saying, you know.

Oh my who is this? And so that really, really helped us a great deal, I have to say. That was the award that you're most Yeah, small American designers. didn't win at the time. It was r usually, you know, Ralph Thorn, Calvin Klein, Donna, Karen, all of those people. And I remember Kate when we came back to New York and we were hoping something would happen that either Neiman's or Sacks, they were buying for two or three stores and they said, We're going to buy for all of our stores

And that was fifty stores or more than fifty stores. And that But what you have to realize is when that happens, although it's very good, you also have to up front production, they don't pay you for thirty to sixty days. So I remember thinking, How are we going to afford this? But we never borrowed a dime

Ever Was there something that you guys did, like a business decision that you m you made That that was the key to turning this around, or was it just more people started to discover it and you just you had just persevered through those rough years and then it finally just kind of on its own

You know Got discovered. That's exactly what happened. I mean it really was just Kind of a little bit of a snowball effect. No, it just got a little bigger and a little bigger and a little bigger and I think

Yeah. At the point where the larger department stores were picking us up, I think then it we realized I think we have a business here. We loved it, we kept getting larger and larger spaces than the stores, which is very important. You know, at first you're on a tiny little table. And maybe you get a few bigger Space and shelves and the next thing you know you have

Store and store, shop and shop is what they call them, where your name is above it really big. How did you feel about that? To see your to to walk into A fancy, you know, store and see your name there. I think it was more fun for my mom, actually. But it was a lot of fun, I have to say, in the And Soho tiny little three hundred square foot store the next thing. You know, we're opening a bigger store in New York and then we're opening in

Los Angeles and Chicago and You know, it was kind of at that point it became a little dizzying and a bit of a whirlwind, but it was fun. And and so at some point you guys sold a a part of the company, um was that was that to sort of scale up or like to make it even bigger? You know, it was also um a safety net, quite honestly, for us personally. And it wasn't even Marcus and we thought that

Would be somebody that would And they bought a a little bit more than fifty percent of the company at the time. They bought a six percent. And and reportedly for more than thirty million dollars. Was that just insane to you guys when when when it happened? They were I think our biggest client or store at the time, and we were doing very well with them, and they had just started investing in other little little brands that they thought had potential.

And yeah, when they came to us, we were completely uh in shock. And it was exciting because we thought, Wow If everything goes goes away tomorrow. You know, w we'll be able to sustain the business. I mean if it's a really about, you know, being able to have A bit of an essay going forward for the four of us. And then what did that mean when when Neiman Marcus bought?

More than half the how did it change? Kate Spade. We started going into more categories because they were encouraging that, which a lot of the stores, not just Neemans, you know it was Sachs, all of them were really encouraging us to branch out into other categories. So we Yeah.

stationary next, which that was right when the phones and emails and all that were replacing people writing notes. And people came to us and they said, Well when we said another category, we didn't mean you know a dying category. So I think what they were implying was shoes. They really wanted some Real substantial. Second So then we started doing shoes and it really just started

You know, I think it was just a good boost. And I mean you guys probably had to go from you and Andy and your two partners to Lots of employees quickly, right? We did, but we had done that actually You know in the process, slowly, slowly changing. You know, offices and we take a floor and then

We take another floor in the building and then We started hiring people PR and departments. In different departments and production people and and then hiring people that had more experience. So I really had a lot of people around and and Andy did. Andy really surrounded himself with the really Great. Yeah.

And I really had great designers with me and I think we really developed Employees that were amazing. Wh when did you start to see Kate Spade bags all over the place? a huge iconic brand. When when did you first kind of realize that that was the case?

I'd say it was about Ninety seven. It was still Very New York, Los Angeles, Chicago.

I think it was about ninety eight or ninety where you would see him. You know, in any city that you went to. Well counterfeits started around ninety. That was about you, yes. Which Andy said that's actually a a compliment. He said you know you're doing something right when they're on every blanket on every street. I think we celebrated f for a day and then the next day that was over. You guys sold the rest of your your share of Kate Spade, I guess, in in around two thousand seven and kind of just walked away from it. Wha why'd you decide to do that? So we had a baby in two thousand and five and I just remember thinking it was a perfect opportunity and I think the point was that was selling themselves to Texas Pacific.

And They involved us, and I must give them a lot of credit for that. But When we sold it, I remember thinking now it's kind of like we have a A boss. And I I remember thinking I want to leave on on good terms. It was a perfect time to leave. I wanted to spend time with my daughter. It was you've heard so many horror stories about people who sell and then they stay and then they fight and then they sue and

I I just thought ooh the It's That's too ugly for me. So we left on great terms. We stayed, we did a turnover For a year, I think we're the same. Yeah, transition to make sure all the employees who we loved had had agreements to carry on and uh making sure everyone understood what the process was. Um And they understood the the new owners understood.

And They were very gracious and I think we all handled it very well and it was seamless. It was a very Quiet exit. You guys um I mean You guys obviously have this incredibly strong

marriage mean you met when you were college students, you're still together, you have a you create this c this these amazing brands and how do you How do you have a marriage and a business and make it work? I mean I was Say from my perspective, I remember people saying, How do you work together? and I

I was thrilled. And I and Andy one day said, Listen, I said, Oh wait up, wait up and I'm not ready yet and he said, Oh no no, let me tell you right now, if you think that every day we're gonna go to office together, and we're gonna have lunch together He said, That's not happening. We actually worked on separate floors for that very reason because I had a tendency to go into his office and he'd be on the phone and I'd say, Get off the phone, I have something to tell you or ask you And that we had to really I had to myself find boundaries and We had to make a conscious effort not to talk about it twenty four seven, which is As you can tell by how quickly I talk my tendency.

And I also am very n a nervous person. I worry a lot. And Andy could not be more different. You have s you you were like the sleepless nights person? Yes. And always you know the The sky is falling. And Andy who is like uh You know, it's c it's fine. And I think that because we We kind of grew up together, you know, from our twenties up until now in our fifties.

And we actually have a lot in common which helps. You guys um Recently. launched a new company together. You call you called uh Francis Valentine. Yes. Uh and Kate, you changed your name from Kate Spade to Kate Valentine. I did. Well I added it. I didn't change it. I just added

Francis Valentine into it. It's Catherine Null. Francis. Valentine Rosny and Spain.

Pretty long. Did you do it in part because Kate Spade had become its own thing and Beyond a single person. Yes, and I thought it was important to make sure that we weren't stepping on any toes and it

That we distinguished. our company and I think that was important for both of us. I mean people still call me Kate Spade, I go by it. But I I'm I get confused myself, so you can call me Francis if you want. And can you tell me about Francis Valentine? What what does the company do?

We are doing Shoes and handbags. And we actually when we started It was Initially just shoes. And although we've only been in business for about a year or just a year. A little over a year, but we've realized that um

People were expecting bags. And I mean now you're I mean it's it's a little bit different right because the the hunger is I'm sure it's still there, but It's not like a do or die thing. Like it it it m it must be a bit I don't know. Is it less stressful? We have air conditioning, I think that's big that's a big difference, right? Are they elevators and air conditioning. Exactly. I would say there's it's both. I feel a little more confident. I think Andy feels the same because we've done it before. But on the same hand you think that people are expecting a great deal.

So there's still there's still a lot of pressure, trust me. And and and we're self financing again, so I'm not crazy about as I mentioned earlier, losing any money. So you know, this thing better work. Do you when you walk past a Kate Spade shop today or

D do you d do you feel emotion an emotional attachment to it or or Well, you know, that that's a different thing now. It's funny because I I do look at it and I don't people said, Oh, do you have any regrets? And I remember thinking, Oh, I hope I don't and I never have and I think they've done such a good job that luckily I don't have to have.

And uh we do walk by the stores and I have a funny story that we actually walked into a store to buy my daughter something and We went to the cash register and she said, Are you on our mailing list? And I said, um, I don't think so. And and so then I used my maiden name and I said she said Brosnan and then my daughter kinda kept nudging me. She was dying for me to say something. And I didn't and then I remember thinking, you know No, I'm not on your mailing list, but I think I helped create it.

That's Kate and Andy Spade. And by the way, if you've ever heard of Jack Spade bags for men, Kate and Andy were behind those two, and no Jack is not a real person. Just a cool name. I mean honestly people The constantly are saying.

You know Jack Kate Fade, right? Or you know Kate Jack's Fabe? And then I I don't want to embarrass him, but I'll say, Oh, you mean Andy. They're like oh Are you divorced? Who's where's Jack?

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